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@@EmberPlays true. but Darklurker man... You REALLY have to want that boss if you're gonna pay a limited item, your precious human effigies, for it every time you wanna attempt it, then fight your way through the phantom enemies lurking in that cave only to get your attempt, AND it's pretty difficult if you ask me
the longest run you could do without a stake of marika was at the Rennala fight. I mean, why Rennala would put a statue of someone that stole her husband from her? storywise, Elden Ring did a great job on putting stake of marika on areas where marika is heavily involved like in Leyndell especially in erdtree sanctuary. they also decided not to put any stake of marika in Crumbling Farum Azula because, you know, Maliketh definitely hates Marika.
Thats a very interesting interpretation! Though if the lore is the only reason for harming the gameplay experience, I wish they would have just made some similar feature like a “Stake of the Moon”, “Stake of Death” or “Stake of the Great Dragon” to replace it, it would just be more convenient
Lore explanations aside, the reason that Rennala’s and Placidusax’s boss runs are so tedious is because there is nothing to do, minimal resistance, shortcuts, points of interest, etc. You’re just… running until you get there… for a long period of time… There’s no gameplay value in it.
@@friendoftheoyster3906 I partly agree, but Marika specifically has the whole "those who serve my will never die" vibe going on. Also, Rennala hasn't been handling the break up the best. How bad would she take the news that Radogan dumped her so he could f**k himself? I wonder if she'd go from depressed to angry. Might be good for her, that considered.
The reason there are no stakes of marika in Farum Azula is not because Maliketh hates Marika, it's because Farum Azula far predates the age of the Erdtree and the worship of Queen Marika. In fact if you do all of Gurranq's questline, Maliketh says upon defeat "forgive me, Marika", showing that he is still loyal to her.
The boss run that hurt my feelings most in DS1 was Bed of Chaos. Through the lava, past the fire spewing demon babies, up the ramps, past the chaos eater, down the slide, and cheaply knocked into a bottomless chasm for the 8th time in a row.
There is actually a lore reason for the absence of Stakes of Marika in the Academy and Farum Azula: the denizens simply don't worship her so it would make no sense to have statues of her there Edit: also includes the Haligtree and the Underground cities for similar reasons. One thing that is interesting however is the stake right before Mohg, might have some lore implications
@@Spoopy_man It’s complicated… they’re considered the “same” but are very clearly two different entities with different views and goals. Instead of being 2 bodies being separated from one person, think of it more as one person fused from 2 people.
if you somehow died to mist noble then the runback will be annoying. i remember dying when i'm right next the bsos entrance to another enemy and had to do all of it again.
The only bosses that have runbacks to speak of are the easiest, i.e. Divine Dragon, Mist Noble. You can argue that Drunkard in Hirata has one, but its more od the problem of his goons than distance.
all of the main bosses practically have none, but alot of the mini bosses have pretty bad ones. they're usually surrounded by huge gank squads that you have you to take out everytime before hand.
I guess because the run back itself is pretty straightforward. Going through the invisible ledges is a bit scary, but you only walk in a straight line, and the crystal golems are pretty slow. The only real nuissance are the clams at the end of it all, but you can kill two, lure the others away from the fog gate and go through it. It's annoying, like most boss runs, but not that bad compared to the others.
Once you get through the invisible part once it is easy, it’s really just dealing with the clams. Though it’s funny cause I killed seath and died at the same time on my first attempt so I had to make the run back despite beating him, then I got pushed into a random piece of geometry by a clam after I grabbed my souls and couldn’t escape, dying again, so finally I ran back and was able to grab my souls from outside the spot. All that to say, I understand.
It's long, but not particularly tedious or stressful. That gives it a middle score. Shorter, but more stressful runs are definitely worse than longer, chill ones, Bed of Chaos notwithstanding. But long stressful ones are murder.
Recently did my first ever play through of ds1 (blind btw) and had no idea I would fight seathe the scaleless at the end of the crystal caverns. I only had 2 estus and half health when I got there. Never tried so hard in my life to beat a boss first try because absolutely no way was I going to go through that again, and I did end up beating him first try, but mostly bc he was the last of the 4 I did and I was over leveled for him
I never minded the run back to bosses conceptually. Bc it does build suspense and makes you think about your strategy. But I always disliked when it was hard to get back without taking damage or needed platforming.
@@FrostySnowman334 Yah that elevator is tedious. There's a psychological element to waiting for something outside your input vs running to the boss. They may take the same time but it feels like the latter is in your control
Boss runs made less and less sense as enemy movesets became more complex. There's huge difference between the hollows in undead burg and the hollows that guard the twin princess. By DS3 most players started running past enemies and I feel FROM realize this and finally cut it out
DS3 definitely had a very egregious run for Midir. You don't need to fight a single enemy on the way to him, but for some reason they make you run like 5 minutes every time you want to attempt him.
@@kode-man23 try fighting him as a pure mage :/ fyi beat the game as pyro, strengthdex and pyro again, but wanted to try something new last year as had never done ringed city and pandemy was heavy in nz still. so i did pure mage. Beat everthing except midir. i still haven't beat midir, and i don't want to compromise and respec on that profile. like, i 6 attempted nameless king, and can beat the soul of cinder consistently without trial and error but fuckin midir??? i hate that beotch. also for whatever reason, ocieros and fucking deacons of the deep are so hard as pure mage.
I'm amazed you didn't mention Laurence for Bloodborne runbacks. while not a long runback by any means, you have to run past a TON of dangerous enemies to get to Laurence. Old Hunters, beasts, dogs, and those big Cthulhu-looking assholes are all possible party crashers. half of my attempts on Laurence were just memorizing the route so I could run back to him without fighting/losing consumables for heals. Not to mention Laurence is easily one of the most difficult bosses in the game, so you're gonna be doing that runback a LOT
Agreed. I hate it. Most of it is fine, but that one Executioner blocking the door and fighting with 2 small enemies can eat shit. I ran by at just the wrong time once and I got grabbed when he went to grab the small enemy he was fighting. Had to heal twice before the fight even started.
I fought Lawrence on BL4 for a loooong time. His runback isn't THAT bad. 95% of the time you don't get hit by enemies. There's way worse runbacks out there.
Do boss runs have a purpose? Do they make the bossfight more challenging or better in any way? If I think about my favorite and hardest bossfights in Soulsborne then Ludwig, Nameless King, Gael and Sword Saint Isshin come to mind. Neither had noteworthy boss runs. My answer is no, they're purely tedious.
I think they can encourage optimal play. I probably never would have learned how to parry if I didn't need to get past the silver knights on the way to Ornstein and Smough
I feel like boss runs are just fake/artificial difficulty, especially once youve “gotten good”. But like others have said i think it helps to reinforce the gameplay loop once you’re learning. But after the first 2 or 3 bosses of the game it gets annoying.
Yeah if he makes top 10 list of worst bosses run, ds2 definetely took like 5 on top.. Duo giant cats in frigid outskirt, executioner chariot, darklurker, smelter demon and blue smelter demon, sir alonne, ancient dragon, ruin sentinels, lost sinner,, all of their runback are horrible.. Also a lot of easy bosses in that game having horrible runback as well, it's just because they are so easy to kill so people hardly notice, like guardian dragon, demon of song, and duke's dear freja for example, but overall ds2 really suck when it comes to implement it.
@@ttchme9816 Yeah in term of gameplay perspective DS2 is ahead of other DS games, it's just the way they create bosses for the sake "just being boss" is underwhelming.. They have most bosses among DS trilogy, yet you can probably count only 3-4 bosses being memorable..
Costs silver bullets, and depending on the ability (or build, skill based builds deal more visceral damage) you can just need those bullets, and blood bullets cost hp, but well, you have 20 flasks
i'm curious why one would dislike the idea of stakes of marika? like it doesn't sound like there are any negatives to it, so i genuinely can't fathom what arguments against it might exist
The only thing I can think of is, that you don't have any shortcuts In an open world game like elden ring, I prefer stakes of Marika over shortcuts, but the satisfaction of finding a shortcut that led straight to an older bonfire or lamp and give you an easier time to get to the boss is just great But still, I prefer stakes of Marika in an open world game like elden ring, that's just my reasoning
@@felixmuller7743 thank you, also that is a very good reason to be concerned about the level design, definitely has the potential to be used as a developer's shortcut rather than having well-thought-out maps
@@felixmuller7743 In open world, stakes of marika are amazing. In legacy dungeons clever shortcuts feel great to find. The only aspect that you can argue missing is Ds 1 world connectivity and honestly they couldn't do it since so there is not much loss. I mean especialy ds2 . Still dont know how do you take an elevator from a windmill to the fucking iron keep
The bonfire for Maliketh is right at the stairs, you run upstairs, up the ramp and you’re there? One miniboss in the way, 15 second walk. Am I remembering that wrong?
short boss runs are fine as it gives me enough time to think about what I did right or wrong, if I should use another weapon etc without becoming daunting to do like long ones
This video felt less like "the worst boss runs" and more like "a retrospective on boss runs". Not complaining, as it's a very good video, one that I enjoyed watching. Good job!
Thanks!! And yes it was actually, the original title was “the evolution of boss runs” but i thought “the worst boss runs” sounded better and was easier to understand at a glance
For me, the worst boss run in Bloodborne would be the one with Laurence The First Vicar. You have to run past that hunter trying to hit you with his Blunderbuss. Then through a bunch of beasts with a giant fireball coming down from the stairway. After that, you have to face that giant Executioner with his axe. I meant if you get lucky you can roll through him without getting hit. But that is rarely the case. The guy could be a gatekeeper boss himself. I meant he’s literally keeping that gate. I just keep losing my Blood Vials to him and not to mention, dying several times at least. The run isn’t that long, though having to face all that before such a tough boss like Laurence just to die again is really frustrating for me. All that aside, Laurence is definitely in my top 10 favorite bosses in the game or any soul games at all.
OMG, yes, this. Laurence is the one boss in Bloodborne who broke me emotionally, and I think a lot of it had to do with this runback. It's not horribly long, but there are enough obstacles that you have to manage along the way that just slowly chip away at your resolve, then to be one- or two-shotted by Laurence... it was such a slap in the face.
I like boss runs when they are short or at most medium in length and urges the player to still pay attention at dodging obstacles and enemies to make it to the fog wall safely. Stuff like the Twin Princes boss run in DS3 and Bed of Chaos boss run in DS1 alongside a LOT of others are bad because it's almost just mindless waiting and walking to waste your time. But the Capra Demon boss run (boss quality aside) for example is good because it's short yet you need to learn the level's layout and ambushes to speed up the process as much as you can, or you can just take a gamble and try running past the dogs with minimal scratches.
Oh, do you take the path from undead burg? I always take the firelink shrine shortcut, i thought that’s what everyone did lol. That one is incredibly boring. The other one sounds fun though
@@bolson42 I didn't have the Firelink bonfire available when I fought Capra Demon in my first run (thief starting class and used the master key to unintentionally bypass Capra Demon) so instead I started from upper undead burg and then ran towards the Firelink Shrine aqueduct. A few more enemies earlier in the run but similar to the Firelink bonfire in length. Honestly, I just love DS1's map layout for situations like this where there's 3 different bonfires people used for the same boss
Ohh wow bro I loved your plants vs zombies masochistic challenges it seems you come to suffer in elden rings too 😂😂 hope you are having a blast tho and are physically healthy
I still definitely wouldn't say "good", just "better". It isn't quite as tedious sure, but it still gets boring after doing the same thing too much, and more importantly it detracts from the boss itself because your main concern will be on the runback rather than the boss itself.
For Sekiro I think we can mostly agree that Juzou the Drunkard, had the worst runback. basically two gank squads in a row, except the boss was included in one of those gank squads.
Love the video, but I must say I never considered the Twin Princes to be that long of a run-back. One elevator ride and waiting a couple seconds for the knights to walk by.
Maybe I'm a moron but the only elevator I found out me in front of 30 enemies all waiting to charge at me, and none that could be 'waited' out. Did I miss one??
@@oakleyraverty1030 Indeed, there's an elevator to the right of the Twin Princes' door that takes you back down to before Dragonslayer Armour, so you can just go from DSA's bonfire to said elevator and wait for the enemies to walk by to get back to Lothric without dealing with them.
This is interesting in games where the run is “the point”, like trying out different routes and stringing together movement in a game like Mirrors Edge, or where there are multiple ways to approach particular boss set pieces, like in Sekiro. But outside some of the more intuitive World interconnectivity like in DS1, souls boss runbacks are largely repetitive and uninteresting.
You've to account for invaders invading, if every bonfire was outside boss area, invaders would get invasion error as soon as they do. imo ds1 was best
This is a good point, and it worked with the fact that you had to become human at a bonfire in DS1. I liked that Bloodborne added invasion areas where you had to kill a witch to stop them, it could have done with a few more imo
If you are hitting your head against a wall over and over, you probably don't really wanna deal with invaders. Didn't feel good when I was learning Ornstein and Smough and needed Solaire.
I remember killing the enemies from the Smelter Demon so many times that I got confused that they did not spawn. It was only then that I learned DS2 enemies despawn after being killed a certain number of time.
I first noticed it on the hollow at the bottom of the ladder from the Forest of Fallen Giants bonfire next to the merchant... but I didn't realize it was a mechanic, and thought my game bugged/something weird happened. I didn't realize it was a feature, not a bug until Iron Keep. I didn't struggle there, and was actually using it as a grinding spot because of the Soul payout on the knights... and then they stopped spawning. Suddenly the guy at the bottom of the ladder made sense, because I bashed him every time I passed through, either direction
I found that Gwyn's runback to be tedious. It's a great place to farm shards. But having to spend several minutes having to walk through the kiln over and over began to grow tedious. I am not skilled at Parrying so I really struggled with Gwyn. Also I hated Kalameet's boss run, having those dogs near the fog gate is just cruel. I also found that the walk to the Throne of Want in Dark Souls II is not frustrating, but it felt like unnecessary filler as you had to walk a long bridge and wait for a door to open
Gwyn's runback is absolutely terrible. In my first playthrough after 5 tries i resorted to Solaire because the boss run is so boring and long. When compared to Kalameet or Artorias where i died more, atleast the boss run is only about 90 seconds
Sekiro's bad "boss runbacks" are mostly on the minibosses in the form of the random enemies surrounding some of them, especially before you get access to Puppeteer. I'm thinking of the general miniboss in the Ashina Outskirts right after you get the shuriken and both Juzou fights especially, where you had to attempt to stealth re-kill as many of them as possible to get another crack at the miniboss. Some of the Gauntlets of Strength are another example of this, where the "runback" is having to get through the normal bosses to get a crack at the "Inner X" fight. The Divine Heir gauntlet was the most notable for me, because Gyoubu and Lady Butterfly were so much easier than Inner Genichiro that they were effectively a five-to-seven minute delay between attempts at the actual challenge, but did require actually paying some attention, making the runback to Geni non-trivial.
I used to think Ludwig in BB had the absolute worst run back, that was before on my 2nd playthrough noticing that the church just before the cannon Cthulhu monster had a lamp in it. That took so much of my time.
I miss boss runs just because I miss finding those short cuts that lead me to a much shorter path. The stakes and graces everywhere made everything less stressful since death was less and less of an inconvenience so succeeding over it all felt less rewarding, but rather like I just bashed my head into a wall until it broke.
I never had problems with boss runs in Elden Ring, since it was super convenient, always, with the Stakes of Marika. ...and then I found the Black Knife Catacombs. My most hated dungeon in terms of its secret boss. I swear, I feel like I was at an appropriate level to fight the Black Knife Assassin, but that boss run of running past the resuscitating skeletons, avoid the guillotines, line myself up perfectly with the middle one while getting shot by the archer skeletons and then running past more skeletons, all so that you fight a super fast guy in a cramped room (for which you might have unwanted company in the form of a fire slinging skeleton's arm clipping through the fog wall) made me rage so hard at the game.
Placidusax boss run was way worse than maliketh, but honestly after playing ds1 and ds2 bro those two runs are literally nothing. Literally a walk in the park.
1:27 fun fact, 4-2 boss run was actually harder in the original! In the remake they destroyed a pillar allowing you to drop down onto it (to the right, after you get passed the skeletons,) basically skipping the ghost guys part. In the original, the pillar wasn't destroyed and there was no way to drop down without dying, forcing you to do the whole run and get past the ghost guys.
Nice video but I think you overlooked a major point of these games which is the lack of loading screens while traveling through the world. Things like long elevator rides are used to give the game time to load the next content, this is also used in long tunnels without much content for the game to load/calculate
I dont know if you know this, but the shortcut to old king allant is actually only there in the remake. I played the original with a PS3 emulator and whenever i didnt first try the old king, i had to run through the entire level past the dragon again. Definitely would take the top spot for demons souls even above old hero
DS2 does have one feature that if you're _really_ committed, can help with the boss runs - the fact that normal enemies no longer respawn after 12 resets. If you _really_ want to commit to having a nice relaxing trek back to a boss you're expecting to be banging your head against for hours to come, might as well just take the time to literally clear the run out before even attempting the boss. Granted, it's a rather unreasonable amount of time to devote to prep for a boss, and I guess some of the runs also have enemies/enemy groups that are literally harder than the boss you're trying to beat, but still, it's a feature that's there if you want to use it
Man, my favorite boss fight in Souls series(and also the one the I died the most) is Fume Knight from DS2. A hard honor battle without boring boss run.
I think the Maliketh runback is actually pretty perfect. The Draconic Tree Sentinel doesn't respawn and it takes about 30 seconds, which is the amount of time I generally need to come up with a new plan without getting bored. Boss runs that give you enough time to reflect on what you did wrong and think of adjustments are useful. If there was a Stake of Marika right outside of the area, I think I would have died far more times in that fight, since I would have just run back in without reflecting.
Malekith is like...30 sec runback? And no enemies. Some others you mentioned also leave me scratching my head (crystal sage/abyss watchers are also really short and simple).
OK, I know Hollow Knight is not a FromSoft game, but I consider it a souls-like/metroidvania, and it has an absolute nightmare of a boss run: The Trial of the Fool. A grueling, painful, often seemingly unfair gauntlet of enemies that are required to beat, wave after wave, all just to get to... The God Tamer. She's no Malenia, but I would say she's more on par with the likes of The Nameless King. She herself is easier than NK, but her mount is far more difficult than King of the Storm and you have to fight both simultaneously.
Shadows of Yharnam literally isn't bad??? There are two shortcuts in forbidden woods and it makes the runback take about 1 minute 30 seconds if you sprint
In terms of Elden Ring, there's not really any super bad MAIN boss runs, this does not include any possible optional areas that have boss runs Rennala, is super easy to get back to. She has a shortcut option, and the main way there past the ball is super easy to get past without worrying about damage The entirety of Crumbling Farum Azula does not have Marika stakes, and if you don't find the option grace site, Godskin Duo has a mini boss run that can be a bit of an inconvenience, but all you have to do is backtrack and find the site of grace right outside their arena that also comes with a summon site. Maliketh is a 15 second run with an enemy that doesn't respawn if you kill it, so, thats even easier. Elden Ring all in all really tamed the boss runs and I think it's pretty good for people who hate the agony of taking damage on the way back and wasting a flask.
Sorry but boss runs are stupid. Boss run apologists are some of the oddest in the souls community. Boss runs are basically just artificial difficulty that exist solely to piss you off rather than encourage you to improve as a player. If it was the latter concept, it wouldn’t be as universally hated but instead be appreciated. “b-b-but boss runs are so you can prepare and strategize for the boss!!!1!” I’m sorry what..? Enough with this fake deep argument. I’m too busy strategizing the best way at traversing this toxic ass 500 mile boss run as opposed to thinking about the actual boss ahead who is going to one shot me anyway. Elden Ring is now proof that boss runs are fundamentally useless and unneeded punishment and those that defend boss runs need to hang it up. Even Miyazaki doesn’t see the value in them anymore.
One Elden Ring boss run that I found annoying was Godskin Noble in Volcano Manor. Mostly because of the Manserpent with the whip by the elevator making it almost impossible to get up without taking damage, and sometimes knocking me off the elevator entirely. Just felt like an out of place run for how challenging the boss is.
Did you never raise the bridge next to that arena? All you have to do is cross the bridge, which makes a shortcut to a closer checkpoint, and then you can repeat the boss as many times as you like without even having to worry about the Blackflame Monk just outside.
Mate, Maliketh takes 10 second from the stairway grace on the side of the...bridge I suppose? Placidusax quite long I must say and because the rest of the boss runs are so quick it made fighting him again especially annoying.
i almost genuinly got mad when he said that malikets was long. you don't loose stamina in elden ring when running outside of combat so legit just sprint. That runback is nothing
Elevators are a long ride for a reason. Dark souls uses most of them as a loading screen actually. elevators like the shortcut to the twin princes act as waypoints, the moment you go up the game starts to load in the next area.
My picks: (Note, I haven’t played sekiro or bloodborne so that’s why they’re not here) Dark souls 1: bed of chaos, I don’t think I need to explain Dark souls 2: belfry gargoyles, it’s a reused boss that they made more of a gank. It was a great fight is ds1, with the second one coming in right as you started feeling good about the fight, and it didn’t feel unfair or annoying, just frustrating, which is the essence of dark souls, ds2 just took the fight, said and then added 2 more. Dark souls 3: you can see a lot of experimental fights in this game, ancient wyvern is over in seconds, so Is high lord wolnir, curse rotted great wood is just boring, Yorhm is made into a cake walk, but I’d say these three all have SOME redeeming factors, but the worst boss for me is Oceiros the consumed king. He’s kind of just, there. He’s not particularly fun, he’s not very readable, he has non telegraphed spins and charges, not to mention curse, and he’s so forgettable. He has a boring design, and I just forget him every time I play until it’s time to fight him. Elden ring: there’s so many, but my least favorite major boss is probably rennala. Her first phase is just tedious, and the second phase is either a cake walk or an unplayable hellscape of bs. At least her arena is dope.
I love the boss runs. That's how I've learnt to play on my first Souls game aka Dark Souls. It made me learn a lot of stuff like back stabs for example. Then I've learned how to parry the black knights in Anor Londo, I felt like a boss when I started grinding there for Souls cause Ornstein and Smough were too hard. The only game that I don't like is Dark Souls 2. That game felt hard just to be hard with too many enemies and weird placement. It got better though with Dark Souls 3 that was more fast combat than the first
Almost made me quit the game. Nothing fun about it, just pure time wasting bullshit that made an otherwise okay boss a complete pain. In fact my overwhelming lasting impression of Demons souls was frustration, not because of the bosses but because of how much that game wastes the players time. I get where they were going with it, but I’m so glad that they improved on the formula in later games. It’s the only Soulsborne game that left me with absolutely zero desire to play it again after I finished.
The most interesting experience i have ever had with the runbacks was at the Academy of Raya Lukaria, when i have been frustrated because, unlike everything i have seen before, there were no Stakes of Marika whatsoever. And then, after taking a deeper dive into the lore, it hit me, that it would make sense for Raya not to include the stakes of someone, for whom her husband has left her to
Shrine of Amana gave me nightmares, I remember the time I died with 40k souls and lost them all cause I fell of. Btw I didn't even knew there was a second bonfire so everytime I died I spawned literally after the elevator...
The Frigid Outskirts hike is probably one of the worst treks I've ever seen in a video game. It takes like a solid 5 minutes to get back to the boss, no shortcuts, frozone horses there to spite God and end runs, PLUS the bonfire is in a totally different area so have fun waiting for 2 loading screens every time you die. Just pure insanity.
I was surprised he didn't mention Darklurker. You have to use consumables which come in limited quantity to actually enter the gauntlet to reach her in the first place. And if you die, you have to use the consumables again. I personally savescummed both Darklurker and Lud&Zallen boss runs as they were way too tedious to waste time upon.
It's really something else how much people give Dark Souls 1 slack because "Oh man the world is so connected so no matter what, it's okay it makes sense even if it sucks" I feel like I'm the only one who things Dark Souls 1 is the weakest in the series.
I’m surprised you can talk about boss runs in Elden Ring without mentioning the many catacomb dungeons! For most of them, once you unlocked the boss door it was an easy straight shot from the grace. But the fact that every single catacomb/cave dungeon only ever has a single site of grace and it was at the very beginning of the entrance, means running to the boss would take forever. And you would end up running past the same enemies dozens of times with each time you died trying to get to the boss the first time. But I get it, the hard part about the catacomb/cave dungeons was the initial run to the boss, not the run back. So maybe that’s why you didn’t mention it.
I still don't understand why some YT-ers consider Bloodborne "the best game of Myiazaki", when clearly it's equal to DS1, DS3 and Sekiro. Someone argue that Lovecraft theme is the key, ignoring the fact that far not everyone love this theme(for me, Medieval European and Japanese fantasy are cooler). In rest, BB is not better in any way. Bosses are better in DS3, since they are there all different, with cool second phase and much more diverse gameplay due to the fact that DS series have move gameplay variety(magic, dragons, etc). Level Design is better in Sekiro and DS1, and variety of the locations and enemies are better in DS3, where in Bloodborne all locations feels the same because of the gamma. Gameplay itself is equally good in all games in the series, since it feels completly different. Soundtrack is top, along with DS3, Sekiro and Elden Ring. But as far as I understand, majority of people who say that BB is the best just started from BB since it was on of the few games available on PS4 in the 1-st year.
I think for the most part, Elden Ring's boss runbacks are almost perfect, and the stake of marika was well executed. One thing that bothered me about them was the inability to change your loadout (ashes of war, flask charges, physic etc) at the stake of marika. On my first playthrough, I remember stumbling through Auriza Hero's Grave, getting wrecked by the crucible knight duo (before the 1.3 patch), and not wanting to run through the hellish gauntlet of chariots to change shit up so I can be a little better prepared to defeat them. Obviously I know the chariots can be made essentially redundant on future runs now, but I didn't at the time. It's a small complaint but it was my main point of frustration with boss runbacks, except for maybe the runback to placidusax.
The dark souls 2 dlc boss runs where designed for jolly cooperation. And the fact that you can deplete the respawns of enemies should certainly be a bonus (covenant of champions not including)
You were given NPC summons to distract the monsters or in some case, you just had to use your brain a bit instead of bum rush into things. Sir Allone run you stick to the wall to attract less monster, Frigid outskirt use the 3 NPC summons and find the edge of the map, then send them home at the boss gate. These are all "guide" that was discovered day 1, and I figured these out, it's not some crazy speedrun special strat.
I feel so sad that DS 2 had these problems because it really had potential :( It has some of the more interesting areas and mechanics, and its more puzzly than the others, yet its ruined by having areas with MILLION enemies, that follow you for 20 years all the way to Africa, and yet you still dont have invinsibility frames when entering a fog door. Thanks alot FS, for forcing me to fight over 50 enemies over and over just to ATTEMPT a boss. Just seriously, is there a mod that fixed the invinsibility?
One thing people fail to mention when talking about the runs to Gank Squad, Blue Smelter Demon, and Frigid Outskirts Dogs is that they are completely optional bosses within the DLC. It’s up to you if you want to go out of the way to kill them, you can kill the last bosses in each DLC without them. The fact that they are optional adds extra layers to From Softwares design. They always save the most brutal run backs for optional bosses, and optional DLC bosses get special treatment usually. Long run, tons of tough enemies and bullshit spells, and a boss at the end that is no joke. Only for the bravest of undead!
The main reason for those dlc runbacks is actually that they're all co-op areas, the problem is that they're so infamous for being awful alone that no one even goes there so co-op is in a feedback loop of getting deader and worse
I believe boss runs are overall better for these games because it increases tension, forces people to learn the layout of enemies and their movesets and it keeps invasions more active due to hosts having to run through an area.
Honestly I kinda missed boss runs in Elden ring, I think there is a balance you can achieve in regard to that, not too challenging but challenging enough to add some stakes to fighting a boss rather than making it a "hit your head against the wall until it works"
I say another big thing they did was actually gain your health back when you attack like you have a possibility of gaining it back that is amazing or the other thing where you're able to pick up health off the ground from certain enemies cuz sometimes they drop it sometimes they don't just go in that murder spree and then you should have tons of blood vials
The run back to the maliketh arena in Elden Ring isn't actually to bad because there is a site of grace hidden below the bridge where i run up to his arena. U can reach it via some small stairs to your right if u go up.
I think one thing I LIKE about DSII boss runs was that you can actually clear out levels eventually, while it took a while it was kinda nice that after getting railed by a boss 200 times i was still making some semblance of progress.
@@Lumigle they are part of the challenge of the games. They encourage you to manage your items, your heals, your weapons, your pathing. I love everything about it. Its like Resident Evil 1 where corridors are small and you have to be mindful about which path you take depending on your bullets and items.
Boss runs are the reason why the only Souls game I have finished is Elden Ring. They had barely any runs (only in the Academy, which wasn't good, I got hit by that damn ball quite a few times going for Rennala. The thing is, I, and many others find a lot better to have a harder boss and no boss run, that an easier or gimmicky boss and a long boss run. It's a lot more satisfying. Like I said, I didn't finish any other Souls games. I ended Dark Souls at the Bed of Chaos, that was just too much (even after discovering the hidden bonfire), I didn't even dare with DS2, I'm currently playing DS3, Bloodborne, nope, after the run to the first boss, I said, NOPE, I'm not doing most of the level again just to fight the boss. Sekiro is not a Souls game, I left it at 10 hours, not sure why, I started playing other games, nothing specific. So it comes back to Elden Ring, lots of sites of grace, and stakes of Marika. As it should have been, like in the original Symphony of the night and the rest of the 2D Castlevanias, including Bloodstained.
The boss runs in darksouls 2 are actually not that bad, so long as you aren't playing scholar, scholar is basically a much *much* harder version of the game just cause they added absurd enemy spam in early mid game, leaving the end game sorta bare for some reason.
Nah i found Scholar easier if you don't plan on doing a NG+. Like Velstadt bossrun is way easier, shrine of Amana is easier, Mytha is easier (even if it's not that hard in the base game) and some others
Honestly one run back that stayed with me for a while was the Artorias run back. I absolutely love Artorias and I love every aspect of the fight, but back when I first fought him, it took me about 200 tries and like a day or two but I remember the runback taking me a pretty damm long time.
Thank you all so much for watching, I’ve been wanting to make this video forever and I hope you liked it. Here’s the link for the shirts as well: emberdrops.co
Also, subscribe or else next time, I’ll do an outr-
Great video, you're an absolute wizard 👌 keep up the good work 👏
@@TheG1NGER hey thanks :) I’m really glad you liked it!!!
I think the boss run is part of the boss fight. This is best illustrated in DS2 with the Darklurker imho
@@Chretze I could definitely see that, I think it just depends on the boss and the run
@@EmberPlays true. but Darklurker man... You REALLY have to want that boss if you're gonna pay a limited item, your precious human effigies, for it every time you wanna attempt it, then fight your way through the phantom enemies lurking in that cave only to get your attempt, AND it's pretty difficult if you ask me
the longest run you could do without a stake of marika was at the Rennala fight. I mean, why Rennala would put a statue of someone that stole her husband from her? storywise, Elden Ring did a great job on putting stake of marika on areas where marika is heavily involved like in Leyndell especially in erdtree sanctuary. they also decided not to put any stake of marika in Crumbling Farum Azula because, you know, Maliketh definitely hates Marika.
Thats a very interesting interpretation! Though if the lore is the only reason for harming the gameplay experience, I wish they would have just made some similar feature like a “Stake of the Moon”, “Stake of Death” or “Stake of the Great Dragon” to replace it, it would just be more convenient
Lore explanations aside, the reason that Rennala’s and Placidusax’s boss runs are so tedious is because there is nothing to do, minimal resistance, shortcuts, points of interest, etc. You’re just… running until you get there… for a long period of time…
There’s no gameplay value in it.
@@friendoftheoyster3906 I partly agree, but Marika specifically has the whole "those who serve my will never die" vibe going on.
Also, Rennala hasn't been handling the break up the best. How bad would she take the news that Radogan dumped her so he could f**k himself?
I wonder if she'd go from depressed to angry. Might be good for her, that considered.
Maliketh doesnt hate Marika. Doesnt he say something along the lines of "Im sorry Marika" after dying?
The reason there are no stakes of marika in Farum Azula is not because Maliketh hates Marika, it's because Farum Azula far predates the age of the Erdtree and the worship of Queen Marika. In fact if you do all of Gurranq's questline, Maliketh says upon defeat "forgive me, Marika", showing that he is still loyal to her.
The boss run that hurt my feelings most in DS1 was Bed of Chaos. Through the lava, past the fire spewing demon babies, up the ramps, past the chaos eater, down the slide, and cheaply knocked into a bottomless chasm for the 8th time in a row.
Spare a thought for the poor gamers who never found the hidden bonfire.
@@mattkay3228 Oh, man... those poor bastards.
Good times
@@mattkay3228 god I feel bad
Jog for 60 seconds to die in 10 seconds, beautiful.
There is actually a lore reason for the absence of Stakes of Marika in the Academy and Farum Azula: the denizens simply don't worship her so it would make no sense to have statues of her there
Edit: also includes the Haligtree and the Underground cities for similar reasons. One thing that is interesting however is the stake right before Mohg, might have some lore implications
Yeah, I doubt Rennala would want statues of the woman who stole her husband lying around lmao
@@cobble3317 But i thought radagon was Marika?
@@Spoopy_man It’s complicated… they’re considered the “same” but are very clearly two different entities with different views and goals. Instead of being 2 bodies being separated from one person, think of it more as one person fused from 2 people.
@@bolson42 oh ok thx
@@Spoopy_man Yes, but Rennala definitely didn't know that.
Bro included Sekiro just to not even list a run for it.
if you somehow died to mist noble then the runback will be annoying. i remember dying when i'm right next the bsos entrance to another enemy and had to do all of it again.
Because Sekiro runs take like 5 seconds due to how much mobility you have
The only bosses that have runbacks to speak of are the easiest, i.e. Divine Dragon, Mist Noble. You can argue that Drunkard in Hirata has one, but its more od the problem of his goons than distance.
@@wiktorma1679the shinobi hunter within the first like 3 hours of the game
all of the main bosses practically have none, but alot of the mini bosses have pretty bad ones. they're usually surrounded by huge gank squads that you have you to take out everytime before hand.
How did Seethe the Scaleless not get a dishonorable mention for his run back, everytime you die you have to run through the crystal caves every time
I guess because the run back itself is pretty straightforward. Going through the invisible ledges is a bit scary, but you only walk in a straight line, and the crystal golems are pretty slow. The only real nuissance are the clams at the end of it all, but you can kill two, lure the others away from the fog gate and go through it.
It's annoying, like most boss runs, but not that bad compared to the others.
@@ivosamuelgiosadominguez6649 i completely agree ds1 run backs aren’t bad they can just take a while
Once you get through the invisible part once it is easy, it’s really just dealing with the clams. Though it’s funny cause I killed seath and died at the same time on my first attempt so I had to make the run back despite beating him, then I got pushed into a random piece of geometry by a clam after I grabbed my souls and couldn’t escape, dying again, so finally I ran back and was able to grab my souls from outside the spot. All that to say, I understand.
It's long, but not particularly tedious or stressful. That gives it a middle score.
Shorter, but more stressful runs are definitely worse than longer, chill ones, Bed of Chaos notwithstanding.
But long stressful ones are murder.
Recently did my first ever play through of ds1 (blind btw) and had no idea I would fight seathe the scaleless at the end of the crystal caverns. I only had 2 estus and half health when I got there. Never tried so hard in my life to beat a boss first try because absolutely no way was I going to go through that again, and I did end up beating him first try, but mostly bc he was the last of the 4 I did and I was over leveled for him
Maliketh had a bad run? What an odd take given it’s literally one enemy that doesn’t respawn and then you’re at the gate less than a minute later
I had this same exact spot. Maybe he completely missed the bridgeside site of grace 😂
Placidusax has a much worse run imo
@@Rexfuselier yeah it makes you sit through a cutscene and everything, I wish they made the repaired Faram Azula an actual area with a grace
@@null6094 not it doesn’t?
You are aware you can skip the cutscene, right?
A bad run for the game it's in, Elden Ring doesn't really have runbacks so yeah Maliketh is one of the furthest runs to get back to the boss
I never minded the run back to bosses conceptually. Bc it does build suspense and makes you think about your strategy. But I always disliked when it was hard to get back without taking damage or needed platforming.
I hated the run to high princes in ds3 lol
@@FrostySnowman334 Yah that elevator is tedious. There's a psychological element to waiting for something outside your input vs running to the boss. They may take the same time but it feels like the latter is in your control
I would rather it be hard to get back to without taking damage than a long boring empty of life runback
However I hate when I HAVE to kill an enemy to get to a boss
Boss runs made less and less sense as enemy movesets became more complex.
There's huge difference between the hollows in undead burg and the hollows that guard the twin princess.
By DS3 most players started running past enemies and I feel FROM realize this and finally cut it out
DS3 definitely had a very egregious run for Midir. You don't need to fight a single enemy on the way to him, but for some reason they make you run like 5 minutes every time you want to attempt him.
just thinking about that runback frustrates me
Not like he took that many tries to defeat either 🙄
@@kode-man23 try fighting him as a pure mage :/
fyi beat the game as pyro, strengthdex and pyro again, but wanted to try something new last year as had never done ringed city and pandemy was heavy in nz still.
so i did pure mage. Beat everthing except midir. i still haven't beat midir, and i don't want to compromise and respec on that profile.
like, i 6 attempted nameless king, and can beat the soul of cinder consistently without trial and error but fuckin midir???
i hate that beotch.
also for whatever reason, ocieros and fucking deacons of the deep are so hard as pure mage.
I liked it, it gave me time to destress and rethink my strategy when he did the laser ( I died a lot to that thing lmao )
Midir is fantastic enough that i never noticed. Same with twin princes
Bloodborne: he literally runs the entire forbidden woods without the two frickin shortcuts
lol
I wasn't watching the footage at that point but I was saying that the run back to the shadows is actually quite short
I'm amazed you didn't mention Laurence for Bloodborne runbacks. while not a long runback by any means, you have to run past a TON of dangerous enemies to get to Laurence. Old Hunters, beasts, dogs, and those big Cthulhu-looking assholes are all possible party crashers. half of my attempts on Laurence were just memorizing the route so I could run back to him without fighting/losing consumables for heals.
Not to mention Laurence is easily one of the most difficult bosses in the game, so you're gonna be doing that runback a LOT
Agreed. I hate it. Most of it is fine, but that one Executioner blocking the door and fighting with 2 small enemies can eat shit. I ran by at just the wrong time once and I got grabbed when he went to grab the small enemy he was fighting. Had to heal twice before the fight even started.
I fought Lawrence on BL4 for a loooong time. His runback isn't THAT bad. 95% of the time you don't get hit by enemies. There's way worse runbacks out there.
Do boss runs have a purpose? Do they make the bossfight more challenging or better in any way?
If I think about my favorite and hardest bossfights in Soulsborne then Ludwig, Nameless King, Gael and Sword Saint Isshin come to mind. Neither had noteworthy boss runs. My answer is no, they're purely tedious.
I think they can encourage optimal play. I probably never would have learned how to parry if I didn't need to get past the silver knights on the way to Ornstein and Smough
@@godribbon you're so wrong its sad
@@Someguy1a sorry you're right I would have learned how to parry
@@Someguy1a you’re so sad it’s pathetic
I feel like boss runs are just fake/artificial difficulty, especially once youve “gotten good”. But like others have said i think it helps to reinforce the gameplay loop once you’re learning. But after the first 2 or 3 bosses of the game it gets annoying.
First boss run that came to my mind without watching yet was the path that leads up to the undead chariot in ds2
Yeah that invader is insane too, basically have to kill him because no I-frames at fog wall :(
Yeah if he makes top 10 list of worst bosses run, ds2 definetely took like 5 on top..
Duo giant cats in frigid outskirt, executioner chariot, darklurker, smelter demon and blue smelter demon, sir alonne, ancient dragon, ruin sentinels, lost sinner,, all of their runback are horrible..
Also a lot of easy bosses in that game having horrible runback as well, it's just because they are so easy to kill so people hardly notice, like guardian dragon, demon of song, and duke's dear freja for example, but overall ds2 really suck when it comes to implement it.
Yeah that one fuxkin sucked
@@irvancrocs1753 imo ds2 had good idea and intention, but terrible execution.
Elden ring is basically a ds2 upgrade, no doubt.
@@ttchme9816 Yeah in term of gameplay perspective DS2 is ahead of other DS games, it's just the way they create bosses for the sake "just being boss" is underwhelming..
They have most bosses among DS trilogy, yet you can probably count only 3-4 bosses being memorable..
Need a shield for bossrun?
My hunter in blood, use the quickening. Just dash *through* the enemies.
Costs silver bullets, and depending on the ability (or build, skill based builds deal more visceral damage) you can just need those bullets, and blood bullets cost hp, but well, you have 20 flasks
i'm curious why one would dislike the idea of stakes of marika? like it doesn't sound like there are any negatives to it, so i genuinely can't fathom what arguments against it might exist
NoSTaLgIA
The only thing I can think of is, that you don't have any shortcuts
In an open world game like elden ring, I prefer stakes of Marika over shortcuts, but the satisfaction of finding a shortcut that led straight to an older bonfire or lamp and give you an easier time to get to the boss is just great
But still, I prefer stakes of Marika in an open world game like elden ring, that's just my reasoning
@@felixmuller7743 thank you, also that is a very good reason to be concerned about the level design, definitely has the potential to be used as a developer's shortcut rather than having well-thought-out maps
@@felixmuller7743 In open world, stakes of marika are amazing. In legacy dungeons clever shortcuts feel great to find. The only aspect that you can argue missing is Ds 1 world connectivity and honestly they couldn't do it since so there is not much loss. I mean especialy ds2 . Still dont know how do you take an elevator from a windmill to the fucking iron keep
Not being able to change out your spells, or great rune, if your current strategy doesn't work out.
The bonfire for Maliketh is right at the stairs, you run upstairs, up the ramp and you’re there? One miniboss in the way, 15 second walk. Am I remembering that wrong?
I agree. Maliketh run isn’t bad at all. And the fact that the enemy there doesn’t respawn is a blessing
Dragon tree sentinel is my most hated boss so for me personally it sucked
@@lennysummers to be fair, you only fight him once, he doesn't respawn.
@@lennysummers he’s not really part of the run-up to Maliketh, just take the time out to kill them first and you’ll never have to do it again
@@SorowFame I do it every time but the boss will never not suck for me.
short boss runs are fine as it gives me enough time to think about what I did right or wrong, if I should use another weapon etc without becoming daunting to do like long ones
This video felt less like "the worst boss runs" and more like "a retrospective on boss runs". Not complaining, as it's a very good video, one that I enjoyed watching. Good job!
Thanks!! And yes it was actually, the original title was “the evolution of boss runs” but i thought “the worst boss runs” sounded better and was easier to understand at a glance
For me, the worst boss run in Bloodborne would be the one with Laurence The First Vicar. You have to run past that hunter trying to hit you with his Blunderbuss. Then through a bunch of beasts with a giant fireball coming down from the stairway. After that, you have to face that giant Executioner with his axe. I meant if you get lucky you can roll through him without getting hit. But that is rarely the case. The guy could be a gatekeeper boss himself. I meant he’s literally keeping that gate. I just keep losing my Blood Vials to him and not to mention, dying several times at least. The run isn’t that long, though having to face all that before such a tough boss like Laurence just to die again is really frustrating for me.
All that aside, Laurence is definitely in my top 10 favorite bosses in the game or any soul games at all.
OMG, yes, this. Laurence is the one boss in Bloodborne who broke me emotionally, and I think a lot of it had to do with this runback. It's not horribly long, but there are enough obstacles that you have to manage along the way that just slowly chip away at your resolve, then to be one- or two-shotted by Laurence... it was such a slap in the face.
You just gotta hold sprint button. Enemies stop following when you're running away.
I just run past executioner and he doesn't do shit.
Use a torch, it'll make the the run easier as the beasts won't be so likely to attack you.
Can you not parry or what? That section is easy as hell.
i thought the "im just 54 and bald" was gonna be a an incoming keeps ad
I like boss runs when they are short or at most medium in length and urges the player to still pay attention at dodging obstacles and enemies to make it to the fog wall safely. Stuff like the Twin Princes boss run in DS3 and Bed of Chaos boss run in DS1 alongside a LOT of others are bad because it's almost just mindless waiting and walking to waste your time. But the Capra Demon boss run (boss quality aside) for example is good because it's short yet you need to learn the level's layout and ambushes to speed up the process as much as you can, or you can just take a gamble and try running past the dogs with minimal scratches.
I definitely could agree with that. The tedious ones for no reason are the ones that bother me
Oh, do you take the path from undead burg? I always take the firelink shrine shortcut, i thought that’s what everyone did lol. That one is incredibly boring. The other one sounds fun though
@@bolson42 I didn't have the Firelink bonfire available when I fought Capra Demon in my first run (thief starting class and used the master key to unintentionally bypass Capra Demon) so instead I started from upper undead burg and then ran towards the Firelink Shrine aqueduct. A few more enemies earlier in the run but similar to the Firelink bonfire in length. Honestly, I just love DS1's map layout for situations like this where there's 3 different bonfires people used for the same boss
Ohh wow bro I loved your plants vs zombies masochistic challenges it seems you come to suffer in elden rings too 😂😂 hope you are having a blast tho and are physically healthy
I still definitely wouldn't say "good", just "better". It isn't quite as tedious sure, but it still gets boring after doing the same thing too much, and more importantly it detracts from the boss itself because your main concern will be on the runback rather than the boss itself.
For Sekiro I think we can mostly agree that Juzou the Drunkard, had the worst runback. basically two gank squads in a row, except the boss was included in one of those gank squads.
Love the video, but I must say I never considered the Twin Princes to be that long of a run-back. One elevator ride and waiting a couple seconds for the knights to walk by.
That elevator ride was excruciatingly long though.
Maybe I'm a moron but the only elevator I found out me in front of 30 enemies all waiting to charge at me, and none that could be 'waited' out. Did I miss one??
@@oakleyraverty1030 Indeed, there's an elevator to the right of the Twin Princes' door that takes you back down to before Dragonslayer Armour, so you can just go from DSA's bonfire to said elevator and wait for the enemies to walk by to get back to Lothric without dealing with them.
One upside to bossruns is the process of finding the most optimal run, which is kind of reward. If you want to find an upside to it.
This is interesting in games where the run is “the point”, like trying out different routes and stringing together movement in a game like Mirrors Edge, or where there are multiple ways to approach particular boss set pieces, like in Sekiro.
But outside some of the more intuitive World interconnectivity like in DS1, souls boss runbacks are largely repetitive and uninteresting.
Agree! It helps a lot when you do multiple play throughs and add to the replay value!
One upside to diarrhoea is you get to learn the most optimal way to avoid a burning ring
There’s no upside to a shortcut of a boss run that’s still a long ass run.
Most "optimal" runs are either boring running marathons or gank fests, yeah, "rewarding" for sure.
I love how whenever darks souls 2 is mentioned the majula sound chimes in its so simple but so soothing
You've to account for invaders invading, if every bonfire was outside boss area, invaders would get invasion error as soon as they do. imo ds1 was best
This is a good point, and it worked with the fact that you had to become human at a bonfire in DS1. I liked that Bloodborne added invasion areas where you had to kill a witch to stop them, it could have done with a few more imo
If you are hitting your head against a wall over and over, you probably don't really wanna deal with invaders. Didn't feel good when I was learning Ornstein and Smough and needed Solaire.
yea but the game shouldnt be balanced around invaders
I remember killing the enemies from the Smelter Demon so many times that I got confused that they did not spawn. It was only then that I learned DS2 enemies despawn after being killed a certain number of time.
I first noticed it on the hollow at the bottom of the ladder from the Forest of Fallen Giants bonfire next to the merchant... but I didn't realize it was a mechanic, and thought my game bugged/something weird happened. I didn't realize it was a feature, not a bug until Iron Keep. I didn't struggle there, and was actually using it as a grinding spot because of the Soul payout on the knights... and then they stopped spawning. Suddenly the guy at the bottom of the ladder made sense, because I bashed him every time I passed through, either direction
Your video quality is amazing! I hope your channel gets the attention it deserves someday
Thank you :)
The long elevators are definitely hiding load screens
I found that Gwyn's runback to be tedious. It's a great place to farm shards. But having to spend several minutes having to walk through the kiln over and over began to grow tedious. I am not skilled at Parrying so I really struggled with Gwyn. Also I hated Kalameet's boss run, having those dogs near the fog gate is just cruel.
I also found that the walk to the Throne of Want in Dark Souls II is not frustrating, but it felt like unnecessary filler as you had to walk a long bridge and wait for a door to open
Gwyn's runback is absolutely terrible. In my first playthrough after 5 tries i resorted to Solaire because the boss run is so boring and long. When compared to Kalameet or Artorias where i died more, atleast the boss run is only about 90 seconds
Sekiro's bad "boss runbacks" are mostly on the minibosses in the form of the random enemies surrounding some of them, especially before you get access to Puppeteer. I'm thinking of the general miniboss in the Ashina Outskirts right after you get the shuriken and both Juzou fights especially, where you had to attempt to stealth re-kill as many of them as possible to get another crack at the miniboss.
Some of the Gauntlets of Strength are another example of this, where the "runback" is having to get through the normal bosses to get a crack at the "Inner X" fight. The Divine Heir gauntlet was the most notable for me, because Gyoubu and Lady Butterfly were so much easier than Inner Genichiro that they were effectively a five-to-seven minute delay between attempts at the actual challenge, but did require actually paying some attention, making the runback to Geni non-trivial.
That is actually a very good point that I didn't consider. Killing all the enemies around the mini bosses was a huge pain
I used to think Ludwig in BB had the absolute worst run back, that was before on my 2nd playthrough noticing that the church just before the cannon Cthulhu monster had a lamp in it. That took so much of my time.
I miss boss runs just because I miss finding those short cuts that lead me to a much shorter path. The stakes and graces everywhere made everything less stressful since death was less and less of an inconvenience so succeeding over it all felt less rewarding, but rather like I just bashed my head into a wall until it broke.
Absolutely insane, well done...
I never had problems with boss runs in Elden Ring, since it was super convenient, always, with the Stakes of Marika.
...and then I found the Black Knife Catacombs. My most hated dungeon in terms of its secret boss. I swear, I feel like I was at an appropriate level to fight the Black Knife Assassin, but that boss run of running past the resuscitating skeletons, avoid the guillotines, line myself up perfectly with the middle one while getting shot by the archer skeletons and then running past more skeletons, all so that you fight a super fast guy in a cramped room (for which you might have unwanted company in the form of a fire slinging skeleton's arm clipping through the fog wall) made me rage so hard at the game.
I am a being of a single mind when running back to bosses.
"I am.... SPEED!"
That parry at 9:30 was fire
You are Genuinely one of my fav souls based channels
Thank you so much 😭😭
The smelter demon's run was so painfully infuriating. I only got through because I just kept killing them until they stopped spawning.
Placidusax boss run was way worse than maliketh, but honestly after playing ds1 and ds2 bro those two runs are literally nothing. Literally a walk in the park.
Loving the growth of your channel man! Keep it up!
Thanks!!!
1:27 fun fact, 4-2 boss run was actually harder in the original! In the remake they destroyed a pillar allowing you to drop down onto it (to the right, after you get passed the skeletons,) basically skipping the ghost guys part. In the original, the pillar wasn't destroyed and there was no way to drop down without dying, forcing you to do the whole run and get past the ghost guys.
yeah a def agree that placidusax can be tedious especially because it’s MORE platforming, but it’s wayyy better than previous installments
if you die to one reborn in bloodborne the runback is your worst nightmare ever
Nice video but I think you overlooked a major point of these games which is the lack of loading screens while traveling through the world. Things like long elevator rides are used to give the game time to load the next content, this is also used in long tunnels without much content for the game to load/calculate
I dont know if you know this, but the shortcut to old king allant is actually only there in the remake. I played the original with a PS3 emulator and whenever i didnt first try the old king, i had to run through the entire level past the dragon again. Definitely would take the top spot for demons souls even above old hero
DS2 does have one feature that if you're _really_ committed, can help with the boss runs - the fact that normal enemies no longer respawn after 12 resets. If you _really_ want to commit to having a nice relaxing trek back to a boss you're expecting to be banging your head against for hours to come, might as well just take the time to literally clear the run out before even attempting the boss. Granted, it's a rather unreasonable amount of time to devote to prep for a boss, and I guess some of the runs also have enemies/enemy groups that are literally harder than the boss you're trying to beat, but still, it's a feature that's there if you want to use it
Elevators are hidden loading zones, so i don't think they can speed it up
Man, my favorite boss fight in Souls series(and also the one the I died the most) is Fume Knight from DS2. A hard honor battle without boring boss run.
I think the Maliketh runback is actually pretty perfect. The Draconic Tree Sentinel doesn't respawn and it takes about 30 seconds, which is the amount of time I generally need to come up with a new plan without getting bored. Boss runs that give you enough time to reflect on what you did wrong and think of adjustments are useful. If there was a Stake of Marika right outside of the area, I think I would have died far more times in that fight, since I would have just run back in without reflecting.
very good point
The Seath the scaleless run back had me questioning my life choices.
Malekith is like...30 sec runback? And no enemies. Some others you mentioned also leave me scratching my head (crystal sage/abyss watchers are also really short and simple).
I'm so glad I'm not the only one that took forever, underleveled, on draconic tree sentinel just because I wanted to see Leyndell
Exactlyyyyy
Maliketh's run was too long? huh? It's a 15 second jog from the site of grace
OK, I know Hollow Knight is not a FromSoft game, but I consider it a souls-like/metroidvania, and it has an absolute nightmare of a boss run: The Trial of the Fool.
A grueling, painful, often seemingly unfair gauntlet of enemies that are required to beat, wave after wave, all just to get to... The God Tamer. She's no Malenia, but I would say she's more on par with the likes of The Nameless King. She herself is easier than NK, but her mount is far more difficult than King of the Storm and you have to fight both simultaneously.
Why do you keep putting (including elden ring) in the title?
Like it's almost 9 months old now
Maybe force of habit
Title keywords so the algorithm knows which type of audience to show the video to
Shadows of Yharnam literally isn't bad??? There are two shortcuts in forbidden woods and it makes the runback take about 1 minute 30 seconds if you sprint
surprised you didn't talk about Midir's runback, the ladder + elevator combo took FOREVER on a super hard boss too
In terms of Elden Ring, there's not really any super bad MAIN boss runs, this does not include any possible optional areas that have boss runs
Rennala, is super easy to get back to. She has a shortcut option, and the main way there past the ball is super easy to get past without worrying about damage
The entirety of Crumbling Farum Azula does not have Marika stakes, and if you don't find the option grace site, Godskin Duo has a mini boss run that can be a bit of an inconvenience, but all you have to do is backtrack and find the site of grace right outside their arena that also comes with a summon site.
Maliketh is a 15 second run with an enemy that doesn't respawn if you kill it, so, thats even easier.
Elden Ring all in all really tamed the boss runs and I think it's pretty good for people who hate the agony of taking damage on the way back and wasting a flask.
Anyways the run up that haunts me the most is Pontiff, it's not hard. I just died to him hundreds of times so I hate it.
i love these types of videos so much
Dark souls: it's wasn't the bosses the game was about, It was about the short cuts we met along the way!
*Happy remix of vorts theme plays*
Sorry but boss runs are stupid. Boss run apologists are some of the oddest in the souls community. Boss runs are basically just artificial difficulty that exist solely to piss you off rather than encourage you to improve as a player. If it was the latter concept, it wouldn’t be as universally hated but instead be appreciated. “b-b-but boss runs are so you can prepare and strategize for the boss!!!1!” I’m sorry what..? Enough with this fake deep argument. I’m too busy strategizing the best way at traversing this toxic ass 500 mile boss run as opposed to thinking about the actual boss ahead who is going to one shot me anyway. Elden Ring is now proof that boss runs are fundamentally useless and unneeded punishment and those that defend boss runs need to hang it up. Even Miyazaki doesn’t see the value in them anymore.
One Elden Ring boss run that I found annoying was Godskin Noble in Volcano Manor. Mostly because of the Manserpent with the whip by the elevator making it almost impossible to get up without taking damage, and sometimes knocking me off the elevator entirely. Just felt like an out of place run for how challenging the boss is.
Did you never raise the bridge next to that arena? All you have to do is cross the bridge, which makes a shortcut to a closer checkpoint, and then you can repeat the boss as many times as you like without even having to worry about the Blackflame Monk just outside.
Mate, Maliketh takes 10 second from the stairway grace on the side of the...bridge I suppose? Placidusax quite long I must say and because the rest of the boss runs are so quick it made fighting him again especially annoying.
i almost genuinly got mad when he said that malikets was long. you don't loose stamina in elden ring when running outside of combat so legit just sprint. That runback is nothing
@@xlgapelsin6173 still a waste of time
Elevators are a long ride for a reason.
Dark souls uses most of them as a loading screen actually.
elevators like the shortcut to the twin princes act as waypoints, the moment you go up the game starts to load in the next area.
I feel like i'm one of the only people who never really minded any boss run back, maybe because i didn't die as much to the annoying ones.
My picks:
(Note, I haven’t played sekiro or bloodborne so that’s why they’re not here)
Dark souls 1: bed of chaos, I don’t think I need to explain
Dark souls 2: belfry gargoyles, it’s a reused boss that they made more of a gank. It was a great fight is ds1, with the second one coming in right as you started feeling good about the fight, and it didn’t feel unfair or annoying, just frustrating, which is the essence of dark souls, ds2 just took the fight, said and then added 2 more.
Dark souls 3: you can see a lot of experimental fights in this game, ancient wyvern is over in seconds, so Is high lord wolnir, curse rotted great wood is just boring, Yorhm is made into a cake walk, but I’d say these three all have SOME redeeming factors, but the worst boss for me is Oceiros the consumed king. He’s kind of just, there. He’s not particularly fun, he’s not very readable, he has non telegraphed spins and charges, not to mention curse, and he’s so forgettable. He has a boring design, and I just forget him every time I play until it’s time to fight him.
Elden ring: there’s so many, but my least favorite major boss is probably rennala. Her first phase is just tedious, and the second phase is either a cake walk or an unplayable hellscape of bs. At least her arena is dope.
I love the boss runs. That's how I've learnt to play on my first Souls game aka Dark Souls. It made me learn a lot of stuff like back stabs for example. Then I've learned how to parry the black knights in Anor Londo, I felt like a boss when I started grinding there for Souls cause Ornstein and Smough were too hard. The only game that I don't like is Dark Souls 2. That game felt hard just to be hard with too many enemies and weird placement. It got better though with Dark Souls 3 that was more fast combat than the first
If you think about it, random cutoffs is now his outro
The run back for the old hero in demons souls was the hardest of the series for me..... I had a lot of bother with that....
Almost made me quit the game. Nothing fun about it, just pure time wasting bullshit that made an otherwise okay boss a complete pain. In fact my overwhelming lasting impression of Demons souls was frustration, not because of the bosses but because of how much that game wastes the players time. I get where they were going with it, but I’m so glad that they improved on the formula in later games. It’s the only Soulsborne game that left me with absolutely zero desire to play it again after I finished.
Yeah having no shortcut at all was hell, at least the adjudicator had the wall you could jump over even if it was hidden and kinda jank.
The most interesting experience i have ever had with the runbacks was at the Academy of Raya Lukaria, when i have been frustrated because, unlike everything i have seen before, there were no Stakes of Marika whatsoever. And then, after taking a deeper dive into the lore, it hit me, that it would make sense for Raya not to include the stakes of someone, for whom her husband has left her to
I never really had much trouble with the Iron Keep. Shrine of Amana is the one that REALLY bothered me the most in DS2.
Shrine of Amana gave me nightmares, I remember the time I died with 40k souls and lost them all cause I fell of.
Btw I didn't even knew there was a second bonfire so everytime I died I spawned literally after the elevator...
The Frigid Outskirts hike is probably one of the worst treks I've ever seen in a video game. It takes like a solid 5 minutes to get back to the boss, no shortcuts, frozone horses there to spite God and end runs, PLUS the bonfire is in a totally different area so have fun waiting for 2 loading screens every time you die. Just pure insanity.
I was surprised he didn't mention Darklurker. You have to use consumables which come in limited quantity to actually enter the gauntlet to reach her in the first place. And if you die, you have to use the consumables again. I personally savescummed both Darklurker and Lud&Zallen boss runs as they were way too tedious to waste time upon.
Learning a boss is fun, learning a run is not. True words.
It's really something else how much people give Dark Souls 1 slack because "Oh man the world is so connected so no matter what, it's okay it makes sense even if it sucks" I feel like I'm the only one who things Dark Souls 1 is the weakest in the series.
I’m surprised you can talk about boss runs in Elden Ring without mentioning the many catacomb dungeons! For most of them, once you unlocked the boss door it was an easy straight shot from the grace. But the fact that every single catacomb/cave dungeon only ever has a single site of grace and it was at the very beginning of the entrance, means running to the boss would take forever. And you would end up running past the same enemies dozens of times with each time you died trying to get to the boss the first time.
But I get it, the hard part about the catacomb/cave dungeons was the initial run to the boss, not the run back. So maybe that’s why you didn’t mention it.
I still don't understand why some YT-ers consider Bloodborne "the best game of Myiazaki", when clearly it's equal to DS1, DS3 and Sekiro. Someone argue that Lovecraft theme is the key, ignoring the fact that far not everyone love this theme(for me, Medieval European and Japanese fantasy are cooler). In rest, BB is not better in any way. Bosses are better in DS3, since they are there all different, with cool second phase and much more diverse gameplay due to the fact that DS series have move gameplay variety(magic, dragons, etc). Level Design is better in Sekiro and DS1, and variety of the locations and enemies are better in DS3, where in Bloodborne all locations feels the same because of the gamma. Gameplay itself is equally good in all games in the series, since it feels completly different. Soundtrack is top, along with DS3, Sekiro and Elden Ring.
But as far as I understand, majority of people who say that BB is the best just started from BB since it was on of the few games available on PS4 in the 1-st year.
The Sir Alonne run gave me autotoxemia
I think for the most part, Elden Ring's boss runbacks are almost perfect, and the stake of marika was well executed. One thing that bothered me about them was the inability to change your loadout (ashes of war, flask charges, physic etc) at the stake of marika. On my first playthrough, I remember stumbling through Auriza Hero's Grave, getting wrecked by the crucible knight duo (before the 1.3 patch), and not wanting to run through the hellish gauntlet of chariots to change shit up so I can be a little better prepared to defeat them. Obviously I know the chariots can be made essentially redundant on future runs now, but I didn't at the time. It's a small complaint but it was my main point of frustration with boss runbacks, except for maybe the runback to placidusax.
Everyone else is here for the Souls content.....
I'm here for the outro
🤣🤣
The dark souls 2 dlc boss runs where designed for jolly cooperation.
And the fact that you can deplete the respawns of enemies should certainly be a bonus (covenant of champions not including)
You were given NPC summons to distract the monsters or in some case, you just had to use your brain a bit instead of bum rush into things. Sir Allone run you stick to the wall to attract less monster, Frigid outskirt use the 3 NPC summons and find the edge of the map, then send them home at the boss gate. These are all "guide" that was discovered day 1, and I figured these out, it's not some crazy speedrun special strat.
I feel so sad that DS 2 had these problems because it really had potential :( It has some of the more interesting areas and mechanics, and its more puzzly than the others, yet its ruined by having areas with MILLION enemies, that follow you for 20 years all the way to Africa, and yet you still dont have invinsibility frames when entering a fog door. Thanks alot FS, for forcing me to fight over 50 enemies over and over just to ATTEMPT a boss. Just seriously, is there a mod that fixed the invinsibility?
You could always use Cheat Engine. I used CE while playing Dark Souls with an enemy and item randomizer so I could manually out down check points.
One thing people fail to mention when talking about the runs to Gank Squad, Blue Smelter Demon, and Frigid Outskirts Dogs is that they are completely optional bosses within the DLC. It’s up to you if you want to go out of the way to kill them, you can kill the last bosses in each DLC without them. The fact that they are optional adds extra layers to From Softwares design. They always save the most brutal run backs for optional bosses, and optional DLC bosses get special treatment usually. Long run, tons of tough enemies and bullshit spells, and a boss at the end that is no joke. Only for the bravest of undead!
The main reason for those dlc runbacks is actually that they're all co-op areas, the problem is that they're so infamous for being awful alone that no one even goes there so co-op is in a feedback loop of getting deader and worse
I believe boss runs are overall better for these games because it increases tension, forces people to learn the layout of enemies and their movesets and it keeps invasions more active due to hosts having to run through an area.
Nothing will ever beat blue smelter demon. Frigid outskirts sucks too but it isn’t too bad.
Honestly I kinda missed boss runs in Elden ring, I think there is a balance you can achieve in regard to that, not too challenging but challenging enough to add some stakes to fighting a boss rather than making it a "hit your head against the wall until it works"
08:30 there is actually a shortcut just next to where the Shadows of Yharnam are.
As some puts it, the boss run was meant to be part of the boss. You might disagree but tiss interesting to think about it.
this is only reasoned for in dark souls 1 where bosses are easy, but from bloodborne onward, no : D
I say another big thing they did was actually gain your health back when you attack like you have a possibility of gaining it back that is amazing or the other thing where you're able to pick up health off the ground from certain enemies cuz sometimes they drop it sometimes they don't just go in that murder spree and then you should have tons of blood vials
Boss runs for me are simple:
If I remember it, then it was very bad
Lmao
no doubt you still remember Malenia and Midir.
The run back to the maliketh arena in Elden Ring isn't actually to bad because there is a site of grace hidden below the bridge where i run up to his arena. U can reach it via some small stairs to your right if u go up.
Enemy placement in DS2 is a lot more forgiving in the base game. SOTFS kind of screws over new players.
It is alot harder in places than the original
@@richardfisher8460 i think the difficulty curve is more reasonable in og ds2.
I think one thing I LIKE about DSII boss runs was that you can actually clear out levels eventually, while it took a while it was kinda nice that after getting railed by a boss 200 times i was still making some semblance of progress.
To be honest, I really like the boss runs. I was disappointed in Elden Ring with the spawns so close to bosses.
Great video man!
thanks!!! i have a love hate relationship w them hahah
Are a complete waste of time, but if you like it good for you xD
@@Lumigle they are part of the challenge of the games.
They encourage you to manage your items, your heals, your weapons, your pathing. I love everything about it. Its like Resident Evil 1 where corridors are small and you have to be mindful about which path you take depending on your bullets and items.
i mean
tbf you can choose to just respawn at the Last rested site of grace if it really bothers you that much
Are you a masochist or something? I guess as long as your happy
Boss runs are the reason why the only Souls game I have finished is Elden Ring. They had barely any runs (only in the Academy, which wasn't good, I got hit by that damn ball quite a few times going for Rennala.
The thing is, I, and many others find a lot better to have a harder boss and no boss run, that an easier or gimmicky boss and a long boss run. It's a lot more satisfying. Like I said, I didn't finish any other Souls games. I ended Dark Souls at the Bed of Chaos, that was just too much (even after discovering the hidden bonfire), I didn't even dare with DS2, I'm currently playing DS3, Bloodborne, nope, after the run to the first boss, I said, NOPE, I'm not doing most of the level again just to fight the boss.
Sekiro is not a Souls game, I left it at 10 hours, not sure why, I started playing other games, nothing specific.
So it comes back to Elden Ring, lots of sites of grace, and stakes of Marika. As it should have been, like in the original Symphony of the night and the rest of the 2D Castlevanias, including Bloodstained.
The boss runs in darksouls 2 are actually not that bad, so long as you aren't playing scholar, scholar is basically a much *much* harder version of the game just cause they added absurd enemy spam in early mid game, leaving the end game sorta bare for some reason.
too bad i cant even buy the base game
@@filipmajewski8382 really?
Nah i found Scholar easier if you don't plan on doing a NG+. Like Velstadt bossrun is way easier, shrine of Amana is easier, Mytha is easier (even if it's not that hard in the base game) and some others
Honestly one run back that stayed with me for a while was the Artorias run back. I absolutely love Artorias and I love every aspect of the fight, but back when I first fought him, it took me about 200 tries and like a day or two but I remember the runback taking me a pretty damm long time.
Dark Souls II just doesnt look fun to play, and absolutely doesn’t feel good to play. I really want to like it too
"Also if one more person tells me to do an outro I'm gonna..." LMAAOOOOOOOOOOO