I have a close relative on upwork in Africa. She's smart, works over 12 hours a day makes peanuts and her health is waning as a result. Never has any money and always stressed and broke. I think its a useless platform. A slave market.
Yesss I think the competition's just rly tough. She might even be better off just selling actual peanuts in the streets (a few of my far relatives sell peanuts in the streets)
One more problem with upwork. Often clients will refuse to pay and report you to upwork saying that you did not compleate the job or did something else. Upwork will refund them and you get a negative mark
Reputation still counts for something AND a lot of clients will get burned by "cheaper" developers until they understand that. At the start of my career I couldn't get a job as an engineer on the local market so I started doing freelance gigs on upwork. After 6 months I understood that there are plenty of clients out there that got burned by this race to the bottom and that are willing to pay a decent rate for good work. It did take me 6 months to get to that level but I was earning double what engineers were making locally. The real problem with upwork is middlemen who will post jobs for other clients and who will try to undercut you on your rate. It's extremely difficult to tell which jobs are genuine and which are from middlemen. Sometimes I found offers that had 2 or 3 middlemen in the process. So you can imagine that I was making 50% or less of what I should. The best part of upwork is that if you find a really good client and they have many projects on the pipeline, it's not impossible to sign a contractor agreement with them afterwards and get rid of upwork's fees :D
The middleman situation is a huge issue that usually only devs are aware of. Client pays X amount and doesn't understand that the middleman is usually hiring subpar devs that produce dirty code. The client is unaware that the end product has a whole bunch of issues. I've had too many jobs that I dig into and find out there are tons of issues that need resolved just to accomplish what I was hired to do. The middleman usually doesn't care and won't understand why the project took twice or triple the time. This is why I won't do fixed price contracts unless I have known the client for a while and fully vetted the project, and even then I prefer hourly. The end conclusion to freelancing is to hold out for good clients that will pay an appropriate amount, and to stay far away from middlemen types.
Oh, middlemen are a real problem. I read a post in Upwork's forums about someone complaining about translation farmers. There are people who list themselves as "native" speaker in over 20 languages and just subcontract everything for pennies on the dollar.
I just went through this experience and I can confirm everything said in the video is 100% accurate. If you're a dev from a developed first world country and new, you won't make ends meet, not even after 5 months! I've got more than 10 contracts and I have a perfect 100% 5-stars rating as a full stack developer. I did a bit more than 1000 dollars throughout the whole time. So finally I decided to deprioritize Upwork and work for other entities. Furthermore the platform is very buggy. Support is an unmitigated disaster, especially software wise. Their stupid AI support bot is absolutely useless. Frankly it's just an embarrassingly bad company running a business model that rises questions regarding ethics.
My wife tried it. The clients appreciated someone who spoke English and listened to instruction. She got contact info for steady work, went true freelance. But in the end, the fee, the constant changes and undercutting has made it garbage.
@@JJ-vp3bd by getting a phone # and talking to the person and then setting up payment outside of upworks. You're better able to sell yourself actually talking to someone vs email.
@@buildingwithtrees2258 I am doing that right now but its equally hellish because paypal...paypal allow your client to charge a claim and me as service provider found helpless in term of dispute, can you imagine when you refuse to work at Saturday that client filed a claim for given service and now my paypal is locked.
My wife went with bank transfers or checks, either personal or money order. Once it's clear, the watermarks come off. Any of it is a hassle. Local is best, knock on doors. 2nd best is small biz, national or international.
Looks like LI is already doing it. Its a little disturbing because LI is billed as a professional platform, but if they've created an "Upwork/Guru/eLance/Moonlighter" atmosphere, it will go down the same path as all the others. Bottom line is that you have to find high value clients outside online platforms and within a valuable network and leave the "race to the bottom" for the el cheapo budgets and client you would never be able to build a long term relationship with anyway.
@@xlnt3d01 no doubt high-value clients can be found in your immediate environment, I've found and worked with a few, but these jobs don't make you a full-time freelancer, it only makes you a side-hustle freelancer, cos you can't find high paying jobs, pay per hour kind of jobs, long-term relationship kind of jobs through this means, but we know for a fact that if you intend to grow your company or yourself towards high-value income in the range of 6-8 figures per year, then the online platforms is the sure bet. I've been working full-time as a freelancer for 5 years so I know, one very good client who has a good budget for their project and has a good knowledge of what they want can change your story forever, trust me, it's like magic. They will just do what you say, respect you as professional and always pay you what you ask for (I've found and worked with clients like this through this same Upwork). If LI should add this as a feature it will be the first time I'll see the value in paying for the premium plans. Just saying, who cares if they go in the same path as the rest, LI has the users, it has been completely packaged as a professional platform, I'm sure they wouldn't copy paste and repeat the same mistakes the others have made. In conclusion, if working as a freelancer is your dream, money shouldn't be your main focus for the first 2-3 years! That's why you want to learn to bid less than your normal rate in the very beginning, proof yourself and leave the rest for God. If you deliver relentlessly, the clients will stick to you for as long as you want. Of course, there will be a few crazy clients, just don't give up. At the end of the day, isn't that the way to build a real business?
@@adewolemayowa I don't know to be honest. I do agree with you about finding 1 or 2 anchor clients that can help you sustain steady cash flow. I have 2 steady clients I've worked with since 2000 and a few others that I've worked with for years, but we only work together occasionally. Then I have a few one-offs. From the one-offs, I try to develop any with serious potential and needs to consistent work and with all I try to develop referral business. I use the online platforms for filler work and to round everything out. However, clients I develop face to face and offline are my highest paying, consistent and trustworthy.
Also, Upwork has the right to block your account is not obliged to inform you about the reason, which will lead to you losing any money that's left on your account.
What sucks even more is that they ask for documents that can be used to steal your identity. Interestingly the people handling your documents are in third world countries.
@Krystal Lynn Thanks for destroying my chances of even starting. Oh well. I don't know what to do at this point. Amazon FBA seems difficult to start. Especially with everyone going on now.
I'm a freelance writer on Upwork and I totally agree. They do lots of things in favor of the client to the point where you can lose your shirt from how unfair it is. Clients can easily add requirements AFTER you win the job. They don't have to be specific and nothing can stop them from giving you a ridiculous amount of extra work. Plus Upwork allows clients 14 days to approve work! That's ridiculous. It used to be 5. In addition, they hold on to the money AFTER the client approves the work for 5 business days. They claim that they hold on to the money to make sure it clears. That's total BS and they know it. We live in digital world people! So, you could end up waiting 19 days before getting paid... They're a RIP off and I want out. I'm so sick of it.
Upwork is a race to the bottom in price unfortunately. I think I've heard you say that before as well. Will check this out later. Hope you're doing well!
So, so true. I demand that all new freelancers trying Upwork should first create a fake job related to their skill. I did this and saw 40+ proposals from editors/ghostwriters from Harvard to English teachers. Broke my heart. On another note: Traditional freelancing is scary, but the worst people can do is ridicule you. Ridicule is cheaper than $20/month on Upwork connects. Guess I’ll face my fear of rejection.
NIce contents bro. I can relate as I've been using Upwork for a little while now, and I can't really see any monetary benefits it has brought to my freelance career. You spend hours writing proposals for peanut. I think approaching clients head-on or maybe doing email marketing is way better. You have all the control and set your own standards. Subscribed!!
Joshua Fluke does not give good news. But he tells the bitter truth. Somehow he analyzes on point. We need a salty honest dude like this to offer us the actual reality. Thank you Joshua. Include a donation link, so we can donate you.
I think I know why they keep doing this. They don't care about the freelancers on their platform because they don't have to. By looking through the search filters, there are currently around 200,000 jobs posted and more than 4,000,000 freelancers on the website (though I can't tell how many of them are active, let's be generous say 50%). So there are 10x more freelancers on the platform than there are jobs at any given time. With numbers like this, upwork can do whatever they like and nothing can stop them aside from maybe a complete boycott (which will never happen. As stupid as the microtransactions are, quite a few people still manage to make a living there and probably wouldn't just leave like that).
Companies like this take a hugely profitable field and turn it into a dime a dozen thing just to make profits. Now, even good paying work is easily outsourced. You aren't just competing with American anymore, but the entire world.
I completely get where you're coming from, but I disagree with a lot of what you said in this video. I've been working as a freelance web developer solely through Upwork for the last 4 months, and it's worked really well from me. Here are some of my thoughts about your comments: 1. 1:48 it's true there are plenty of people hiring on Upwork that think like this: looking for developers from developing markets who charge less (often China in the case of Vue, which I mostly work with). However, there are also plenty of clients who know that it's often better to go with someone who charges a slightly higher fee but produces quality work, and is fluent in the language spoken by the client. I don't undercut - I actually tend to propose a higher fee than the client's budget, because this allows me to filter out the clients looking for cheap but shitty labour, and get hired by the high-quality clients who value high-quality work. I tried several other freelance sites before Upwork, and Upwork has the largest proportion of genuinely good clients, compared to sites like Freelancer (where absolutely this point is valid) 2. 3:28 You're right. The fees are outrageous. But the reason they're able to charge them is that, at the end of the day, they are one of the best sources of work for freelancers. Yes I could go out and knock on doors to find someone who wants a website, but time is money, and in my case I'm more than happy to fork over the 20% fee in exchange for avoiding this waste of time. Once I've built a relationship with the client I move off of Upwork and circumvent the fees (for both parties). As for connects, well, I hate them too, but I can't help feeling that the reason the quality of work is better than Freelancer is thanks to the connects system avoiding a torrent of copy and paste applications from talentless developers. Connects are never unaffordable if you're keeping to a moderate amount of applications. I spend around 15 minutes writing each proposal and making sure it's super personalised. 3. 6:06 Never looked into their paid subscriptions, don't feel like I need them. Sound about as useless and scammy as you say. 4. 8:50 Fortunately I haven't had any clients try to run off without paying me, but this is actually a big advantage of Upwork, not a drawback (and one of the reasons they can get away with the 20% fee!). May be different in the US, but in the UK where I live it's very difficult to chase up a client who decides not to pay for your work, even with a signed contract. The cost of legal fees means that in most cases when this happens to a freelancer they tend to just bite the bullet. Upwork keeps funds in escrow and has a dispute system which should help avoid situations like this. 5. 10:25 Yes, just like job descriptions, clients ask for the perfect candidate. But over half the contracts I've successfully gotten I haven't met the requested "requirements". I try to make my proposals super detailed to the point that the client overlooks the benchmarks they've set, and any other successful freelancer does the same whether they're using upwork or not. Sorry for the super long comment, just wanted to share my experiences. I agree that once you've got an expansive portfolio you're probably better off looking for contract jobs on a normal job site. But for a junior web dev like me, Upwork has been great and I've made over double what I'd make as a junior developer in a permanent role.
I've used Upwork for years and have over 300K in projects on there. I agree with all of your statements. This video is great for freelancers who do well on that platform since it discourages other freelancers to use it. So lets try to keep it a secret. Heh.
Yes, exactly! I have clients outside of upwork, but my experience with the upwork clients is often smoother. The platform just removes some of the things I have to deal with otherwise. It's not a US thing, I just think he probably hasn't had enough experience on the platform to understand. When I was new, it was difficult to get any responses. But once I got that first job or two, it became quite easy. Simple strategy, convince an off platform client to hire him on upwork and take that 20% loss. It will boost him enough that he'll start getting a lot of work.
Thanks for the comment. Whenever I watch a video with a biases opinion about something I forget that this is just a biased opinion and the comments section always tends to remember me that!
Joshua's dedication worth much much more than the downvote of a few whose still are oblivious to corporate crap. Those who downvote must be those predatory HR people or "C E O ' S". DISGUSTING. We support you Josh!!!
Love this type of content Josh. I really enjoy the thorough explanations of these platforms that are designed to exploit IT professionals. It is extremely tough to compete in an outsourced job market like Upwork, and I appreciate the understanding of how time could be more efficiently used to pursue more fruitful job hunting endeavours.
I charge $200/hr on Upwork. I get at least one invite to apply for a gig every day. The people who struggle on Upwork are competing on price instead of value. Just offering a different perspective.
@@browsergamesGR Marketing. It's important to set the right frame. You can't compete on price. You have to deliver enough value so it makes it worth it for them to pay you more. In my case, I help clients make more money and have a good track record. It's not all about being good at what you do as that should be a given. It's more about frame, sales, and building a long-term relationship with the clients.
@@ericyuan9718 its usually better to keep the contract on upwork to build more social proof in the form of reviews. After $500 in revenue, you're only paying 10%. That said, as a result of my Upwork profile, I've made 5x what it actually says on there. This is because you can use it as a reference when doing outreach and because people find you by email or LinkedIn after seeing your profile.
Yes; I looked on Upwork - was thinking about doing some software QA freelance work. But I saw that people were freelancing for ultra-insane low hourly rates - like almost minimum wage - it was crazy. I had just come from a job making $130K a year and there were people offering to do similar work for 10 to 20 an hour.
Nice video! The basic principle is that anytime you make something easier for everyone, the barrier to entry decreases and competition soars. This is why I avoid these crowded "freelance" websites. This is the shortcut scam at work.
I have been free lancing for years and have only gotten 1 job from upwork and it was for dirt cheap. I have found more work Through networking and applying for jobs online and offering my services as a contractor rather then an employee.
Up work was a successful service for friends of mine. It introduced new workers to the tech industries, especially those who were career shifting. Those with real credentials could use established channels or self promotion. One friend did the testing then found a support job for a modeling software firm answering tickets. She did amazing and they switched her to google after a few months. Now she leads dev teams internationally, as google has a large outsourced workforce. She has a revolving contract with Upwork. I think you need to live super cheap, move to a cheap country, enjoy travel, have few ties, and enjoy your solitude, as you don’t live in a work environment. This person did have a degree mostly completed in astrophysics and years as a restaurant entrepreneur. She could learn super fast, lived to code, and manage employees, a rare find. At middle age how could she think of career switching into a tech field? A bankrupt with no direct tech work experience? No courses? Nothing. In a way Upwork does add market liquidity, at a cost of course. I’m looking forward to competitors in freelance temp marketing. Those fees are too high.
That's complete bullshit, i kind of doubt your older then 15 years. You can't just work from everywhere, you have to manage your taxes, you have to pay social benefits, otherwise you will get your bank accounts frozen regardless if you have money in them or not. You can go on vacation and still "work" from Upwork, but technically you have to go back after depending on where you are few months back because there is this thing permit to stay in any country and most tourist can't linger more then few months without citizenship, Oh and if you make crumbs on the plate from Upwork, there is a very high chance that when you get back you will most likely have to pay more in taxes then what you made overseas when you deduct the flight tickets.
I understand that Upwork is a crappy platform, and that it's easier to just apply for a contract job and not pay the crazy 20% rate to Upwork every time we work with a new client. If you live in a developed country like US, it's easier to say that. For the ones that live in third-world countries, where the situation is terrible and even if you got a degree in an american university, it's pretty hard to just apply to jobs on indeed and get a chance to work in the US or any other developed country since there's a lot of restrictions and most of jobs that offer sponsorship or work permit ask for 2 years or more of true industry experience (most of the time they ditch experience acquired in a third-world country). To some of us Upwork might be our only option to grow and make money. Just putting out there a different perspective. Besides that, I totally agree with your videos, and that 5% rate, most of the time is not even reached at all, it's hard to get clients to work long-term with, most of clients I get, ask for 2-3 projects, and then they never come back to the platform. Because it seems like clients only use this platform when they have extra work they cannot handle in their companies, or when they are starting new projects or ideas. There's not full freelance companies, so you will be changing clients all the time. Something I hate a lot, is when you see a job post, you apply to it, and then you see that the client never checked it again, and left that job post abandoned, you don't get your connects back for dumb job posts that were not taken seriously. I have had clients ask for something on their job post, and then when you get an interview they start asking for different things or different software's or skills they never specified. And that is connects wasted that you don't get back. I hate that almost all of the job posts ask for 4-6 connects, the majority ask for 6 connects, and that makes me so mad, that's almost a dollar wasted for even jobs that are not that complex, and ask for dumb things that can get done in less than a week. I wish there was another freelance platform that would make things easier for us.
Grindreel Academy, where most content is exempt from enrollment? Do you work with a waiting list or the first 3 days of the month or any system? Cheers.
Taking away free connects can actually make Upwork more appealing for employers, which potentially will create more work for "Freelancers" who are willing to pay a few cents to apply. Without free connects, you add a pay wall that will discourage the FLOOD of people who YOLO apply for jobs. Now each job will get a much better spread of meaningful applicants. Again, I can't stress enough how its a shitshow if you specialize in more mainstream programming like Javascript, HTML, CSS, etc.
I love your rant and general view of things on Corporate America, however as someone who has made over 300K on Upwork over the past few years (you can look me up) and continuing to do more business on Upwork, I would say that while Upwork is far from perfect, there are a lot of great clients on that platform, whether first time or not, that need the help and willing to pay not necessarily the bottom dollar for the help. Of course you will find tons of lowballers and clients that can ghost you. However you have to keep applying for projects until you find those great clients. I should probably make a video on tips and tricks on how to use Upwork. I will say that some clients do look for only US based "freelancers", because there are just a lot of problems with these overseas agencies with communication and understanding requirements and these US Based jobs won't allow anyone outside of US to apply. I would also pay attention to the description of the jobs as you can definitely see (not always) if the client is just looking for cheap labor.The game is not strictly of who has the lowest prices some clients actually offer a more reasonable budget. For me I always want to do hourly unless the budget looks proper. Connects actually use to cost more and they made connects and applying to jobs cost less to $1 per job post. It used to cost $2 per job post regardless of small or big job. This was great for me as there would be less people who would apply. I've probably spent over 20k in connects and other Upwork fees and while that is a lot I would gladly pay it for talking to potential clients I find on there. I would say that this video is great for me since it discourages other freelancers to use it.
man it feels great to know that theres other people out there that knows upwork is just a big scam cause thought i was literally the only guy that saw it
He is stating some facts. But he is also pretty misleading. I make a significant portion of my income from the platform, and I live in a high cost city. When I was new, it was difficult to get any clients. But after the first 1-2, it was easy money. My minimum rate is $20/hourly. I have charged more. I'm not saying my experience is everyone's experience, but I do know that it can be a valuable platform. 1 strategy is to convince an off platform client to hire you on the site. Take that 20% loss because the excellent review along with the job being evidence that you can be trusted will lead to more and more clients willing to pay your rate. They will come to you and you won't have to use connects. I have yet to purchase connects. I also like upwork because I'm 1 person who really doesnt want to have to build and maintain a website, do marketing, and all of those things needed when you have to sell yourself off platform. As far as the agency, $20/mo for payroll is amazing lol. They are charging, but you also have to consider how much these things would cost in time and money if you had to do them off platform. There is always a cost to doing business. I would never take someone off platform. It's easy to get banned that way. Every time a client or a freelancer has tried to take me off platform, they have been scammers. I'm sure there are people who don't scam who also do this, but they are outnumbered by the scammers.
mikochild2 this channel is for betas that like to bitch, moan and complain with others who like to do the same, but thank you for sharing your experiences.
Thanks man, for saving me from more stress, time wasted and money lost. Its hard enough trying to be a freelancer without companies like these creating a race to the bottom market and fostering a lower sense of value for our work in the eyes of potential clients.
UpWork is what you make of it. I've had success and I hold at my high rate and I get work... I don't even apply, the jobs come to me. So, technically in my case it's been BETTER than freelancing because I don't even look or apply for work anymore. It took months to get to that point but man, I am so glad I put the work in. In any case, UpWork and/or freelancing won't make you rich but it will help you build savings and a portfolio. Yet, if you are really that good on a platform like UpWork, you should be able to channel those skills into something that you own. At the very least you could fund a project with those savings so you go from being an UpWork contractor to a client, which is pretty cool when you think about it. Anything is possible.
Many very valid points in this video, and certainly a worth while use of anyone's time who is considering making themselves available on the Upwork platform. The general premise of not falling under the umbrella of true freelancing, points made about the fee structures, clients power over contractors and several more will receive no arguments from me. One minor point of contention from a factual standpoint, would be that making a bot to log in and click around would keep you as active, unfortunately they view activity as earning money on the platform and not simply "activity" in the more general sense. So to that end, staying active is a bit involved than it's made to seem here. The rest of what I have to say is purely based on my own experience, and not meant to detract in any way from your viewpoints, as again many of them are valid and certainly things that the site themselves aren't going to advertise. With that preamble in mind, my experience has differed in a few key aspects: 1)As illogical as it seems on the surface, I have found that consistently increasing the price of jobs (even when starting out) has been far more successful than trying to undercut other users. I've done that with almost no exceptions, and my hire rate is consistently at the very top of the spectrum. The primary key to making this work is writing thoughtful proposals, centered around the specific ways you can help them accomplish their goals and then asking for a time to get them on the phone/video chat and using that to differentiate yourself from the low effort proposals submitted by others. imgur.com/VR2MwIj 2) Once you have put in time on the platform and built a reputation, good opportunities present themselves on an extremely regular basis. And while I absolutely recommend making sure you have additional sources of income/work outside of the platform, it does give you peace of mind knowing that if you ever do find yourself needing work that it will be available. I respond and clear out my interview invitations on at least a once a week basis and right now I have 9 more waiting should I need them. In fact, of the 10 jobs I've applied for in the past 3 months, all but 1 was something I was invited to apply for and I almost never seek out new work on my own. imgur.com/a/s1rWyrl
I am a freelancer from upwork for almost 3 and a half years. Connects were free back in the days, but now you should pay to have it. And actually, on my experience, connects is garbage! Almost all of my jobs are from invitation from the clients since the beginning of my career on upwork. And invitation do not need connects. Connects are pretty useless and pretty scam. I have never hired using it and its actually makes sense since there will be a lot of competitions using it for sure. And also almost all of the clients does not care in submitted proposals by the freelancers, they care a lot more on those freelancers that they sent invitations.
Wow wow wow....you said EVERYTHING that I ever was thinking when it comes to this Upwork and freelance business!!! LOL. The clients drive me crazy with changes...and no paying...exactly!!! I am deleting my Upwork for the second time...waste of time. Never got any jobs on there anyway.
Good for you but where do you currently reside tho? And how much you make if you dont mind me (and the other guy) asking? Thanks for the reply in advance
I was ghosted several times and tbh I bought connects and never got my money back. I got years of experience outside upwork but seems like I had to really lower down my hourly pay just to compete with others .
I've successfully freelanced and supported my family for over thirty years. I agree with every single thing in this video. Even though my intial google search raised some concerns, I gave Upwork a try six months ago. The first month, I got two decent jobs - wow! Figured it was a good place. Then spent the next six months trudging through race-to-the-bottom listings and people ghosting me after they email me. I've decided to pass. That first month was clearly an anomaly. Quickly became apparent that it's yet another web site great for the initial investors and bad for everyone else. Keep up the great work and keep shining a light on the scummy shadows.
WTF? that is a complete scam. You don't pay for a subscription from freelancers. Its more for suckers. I bet they also take commission in the transactions.
Haha - I remember that video where you just walked into the deli to talk business. It was so refreshing and made freelancing look fun! I've lost many many hours on trying to make upwork... I think I was trying to offer my services at something like $5 for ghostwriting a standard, 5-paragraph business letter, or a 350-word bio on a webpage. I ended up not even being considered for the jobs I had applied to. In the end, I just blamed my skills and photo. Me being soft is one thing, but they're just... not helpful at all. So much easier to just get judged fairly by pounding pavement.
I had no idea that Upwork tried to wring money out of developers (small pockets) instead of figuring out a way to get their revenue from employers (big pockets). It seems exceptionally greedy to me. They are subjecting their golden goose (developers) to death by a thousand cuts. Not a sustainable strategy.
Honestly this video is all true. I'm a freelancer and I don't use marketplace sites because I would never get what I'm worth on there. I think Josh should've suggested more in depth alternatives though. Basically everyone that works contracts gets them through word of mouth. If you're in a new area that is difficult which is the situation I, an experienced developer, find myself in currently.
I might think this a hate-video towards Upwork that is one of the most professional freelancer platform out there with its ups and downs. But: 1. It's not Upwork's fault that some clients prefer cheaper work - I'm on Upwork for a long time and I've had many great clients with good payment. This thing also happens in real life, not only on Upwork, when others have a better offer. When a company has a project, contractors are coming with their pitch, I think it's the same but maybe much more expensive than paying $15 per month for Upwork. 2. That 20% is reasonable - there is an escrow for them and the money are coming straight into my bank account after 3-4 days when I withdraw; in case I'm working directly with the client there are many issues that could occur: bank fees, trust, transfer fees if the client is from US (I'm from EU), clients paying after 30 days, etc. 3. Easy to create a BOT? What the hell. On Upwork there are people in translations, copywriting, virtual assistants, etc - why do you think that's easy for everyone to "build" a bot? 4. Ignoring the freelancers happens in real life, too, not only on Upwork. 5. Freelancer Plus is $14,99 - that's like two coffees when you are meeting with an eventual client in real life. 6. Do you think that on Indeed or other job websites there's no competition? The good thing is that if people will take your video for granted and they won't try Upwork or they'll quit it, that's more space for me on that platform, haha!
Of course. You pay with time spending on your customised CV, application and portfolio for each potential client that you may or you may not convince. On Upwork you spent time only with customised proposals. But, well... $14.99 would better go for a beer right? :)
@@JoshuaFluke1 It may suck to have to pay but it filters out a lot of scammers or non serious bidders. Client's are inundated with seeing even 50+ proposals and having to choose. Once I see a bid that has 50+ proposals in it I don't bother to submit mine since it will most likely not be seen. I tried freelancer.com and since its free its even worse for number of bids a client gets and for the number of times I have tried it and searched for contract jobs, they all seem to be coming from lowballers. In general, because of the above the experience is much worse for both client and freelancer on that platform.
great video, I've been using upwork since they were called oDesk, it was going good, then they changed their name and their business model, then I found a job outside of the platform and when I came back after 6 months my profile was changed to hidden and now I have to pay so that possible client can see it, this is crazy, you have to pay for everything now and it doesn't guarantee you landing a job.
Oh my God ! You just ticked every box from my frustration list. I saw that a client was searching for expert skills for 10$ an hour......good luck with that This is by far the most honest review of upwork !
Agreed on most of the things - Upwork's terms are quite terrible, however it's still a good channel for finding new clients. I've made around $150K gross income (video editing/post production) just from Upwork in 3 years, and yes - there are too many people there, and yes, Upwork will try to charge you at every step, but still, I met a lot of clients there that I wouldn't find otherwise, especially by cold-emailing. And yes, there are always fifty bidders who are claiming they can do a thousand-dollar job for $200, but the lesson that I've learnt is that if the client is looking for the unrealistically cheap labour, then they're not my client. And yes, majority of the job posters are there for cheap labour, but you still can find decent clients that are happy to spend a few hundred dolors more to get a better result. In other words - if you're a freelancer, Upwork is a good platform to be on, just don't rely on it fully, it's just one of the channels for finding new business.
I made about $5,000 from 5 jobs on Upwork and now I stopped using it after horrible services. The rating system is highly unfair. The freelancer has no way of seeing who gave you bad review and for what. And if your rating is less than perfect, you can forget about getting any work. All the Community guru's are forum trolls who only does $9 translation work and tells you to get lost if you give any kind of negative feedback. Upwork is NOT a freelance resource. It will lose "REAL" quality freelancers fast and with only $9 translators remaining, it will go out very soon.
I've worked on Upwork for over 3 year and it's even worse than you think. Keeping your profile active is not a matter of just logging-in. I wished! If I don't earn money in 3 weeks my profile is automatically hidden. So... Basically they ask you to pay to be active. And when you see the metrics, you see it's not only a race to the bottom but it's also a winner takes it all kind scenario. I bet they have metrics on this and manage to make money from both the winners and the losers. Of all the sites I worked for, Upwork is definitely the worst. I despise them wholeheartedly. I like the gig economy to a point but this website it's cancer. However, they are so successful, you can't avoid it. It's weird to say but my experience in Craigslist is way better than in Upwork.
When I tried freelancing, I got quite a few repeat gigs from Freelancer, but not one came through on Upwork. Compared to a normal full-time job, though, all the Freelancer gigs taken together wouldn't amount to a single month's paycheck, and it requires more work, because you have to do all the Product Owner, System Admin, and Customer Training tasks as well as the development.
You can take advantage of this as an American: - I'm from Ann Arbor, MI, USA - I moved to Tijuana, Mexico, across from San Diego - I paid $150/month for rent and $150/month for food - I won a job on upwork from a startup in Boston who took a chance on me even without any experience - I made $3,000, worked ~400 hours over the month, which comes out to $7.5/hour I gained valuable experience in my field of choice, and I was able to live comfortably given my cost of living. Was it worth it? Absolutely. Would it be worth it while living in the US? Maybe. As a junior dev, you need to make a portfolio to prove to employers you can do the job. Most people do these for free. So if I can win a contract on Upwork, I will be paid for work I would otherwise be doing for free anyway.
@@credman it was a roach motel. A studio on the beach in decent condition will run ~$400/month. Pull up Tijuana on Airbnb and filter by price. I've found places in multiple South American countries through it.
Or you can live somewhere in the US with a notoriously-lower cost of living (e.g., Idaho, Arizona, Oklahoma, etc.) and bill $65-$105/hr. to tech companies from San Francisco, NYC, Seattle, Austin, Atlanta, Chicago, etc. who consider that rate and those terms to be a pretty damn good deal most of the time.
If there's anyone on this site I trust to give a review on something, it's Josh. Man just doesn't sugarcoat at all. I rarely ever sub to anyone, but this channel's different. Stay awesome man 🤙
I made an account on upwork so many years ago (I think it was upwork anyway), but when I looked for work everything paid so little I was like why on earth would I do that. Like, I worked in fast food at the time and it would have paid less for more work.
In the words of a bad infomercial actor: "THERE'S GOT TO BE A BETTER WAY!" I have a dream in a couple of years of building a better job site or freelance haven for developers. Just a pipe dream though.
i have a dream of building a site too but way more safisticated than upwork and will not be a big scammy biding site like upwork, i dont condone racing to the bottom
Up work is literally the worst. I was job scammed on up work 2 years ago. And every job I've had since has either been a flat out scam. Or resulted in me being severely taken advantage of and mentally abused.
Getting me closer and closer to joining the grindwheel academy... Just have to figure out projects that sell. I agree, it is a race to the bottom and best to leave the system than use it...
Josh, great video!! I have been working on Upwork and before that Elance since 2013. I agree that you get screwed by the fee's and the recent change to connects etc. I have no idea how to find clients outside of Upwork with any consistency. If anyone has tips on that please let me know. I do content creation (video, writing and photo) and web dev/design. The convenience of Upwork is in not having to find the clients. I agree - working for your self and setting your own rates is the way to go.
LMWBXR , there are a lot of problems besides finding the client. Legal issues, tracking your work, getting paid, etc. I’d rather pay those ridiculous 5% commission
You have to start a local business. Join a chamber of commerce, Advertising, cold calling, marketing, etc. Who said it is easy. If it was easy everyone would do it. Why do you think most people have jobs?
Thanks for the input Josh. There is a good reason (and only one) that I find in working with Upwork: If you are interested in going the freelancer route, you can do some small, 1-2 day projects on Upwork, for a low price AND a testimonial/referral. Do a few of them in 2-3 weeks, and you'll have a bit of money and testimonials/people you can refer to in your website. But nothing past that.
I remember the good ol' days of walking around and talking to business owners. I heard a whole lot of no's but the one yes I got ended up being a cool internship at a recording studio and my friend and I got to hang out with rappers, and do our homework (we were in college) in a high end recording studio. Fun times.
hi josh, i do wish you the best of luck. i understand the family situation completely and i stand by your decision i hope one day you can reconnect with your family and for things to get better on that front. I love the content. I am a self taught web developer/software engineer and because of you i know which job postings to steer clear of. Thanks for your work and keep going.
Plus they can ban your account if you review them negatively... My account was just banned today even if I am a top-rated plus freelancer and I can't withdraw the remaining $600 on my Upwork account. I can no longer recover my account.. So who gets the $600? you guess it right.
I have a close relative on upwork in Africa. She's smart, works over 12 hours a day makes peanuts and her health is waning as a result. Never has any money and always stressed and broke. I think its a useless platform. A slave market.
Yesss I think the competition's just rly tough. She might even be better off just selling actual peanuts in the streets (a few of my far relatives sell peanuts in the streets)
Agreed. These motherfuckers are after cheap work
Very useless platform
They take 25% of every dollar too
You nailed it. Yass quitting that BS
Upwork has gotten worse than what this video says. Thanks Josh.
One more problem with upwork. Often clients will refuse to pay and report you to upwork saying that you did not compleate the job or did something else. Upwork will refund them and you get a negative mark
so great to see you post about stuff like this, as someone coming into the industry hoping to freelance/go remote it's extremely helpful - thank you!
Reputation still counts for something AND a lot of clients will get burned by "cheaper" developers until they understand that. At the start of my career I couldn't get a job as an engineer on the local market so I started doing freelance gigs on upwork. After 6 months I understood that there are plenty of clients out there that got burned by this race to the bottom and that are willing to pay a decent rate for good work. It did take me 6 months to get to that level but I was earning double what engineers were making locally.
The real problem with upwork is middlemen who will post jobs for other clients and who will try to undercut you on your rate. It's extremely difficult to tell which jobs are genuine and which are from middlemen. Sometimes I found offers that had 2 or 3 middlemen in the process. So you can imagine that I was making 50% or less of what I should.
The best part of upwork is that if you find a really good client and they have many projects on the pipeline, it's not impossible to sign a contractor agreement with them afterwards and get rid of upwork's fees :D
The middleman situation is a huge issue that usually only devs are aware of.
Client pays X amount and doesn't understand that the middleman is usually hiring subpar devs that produce dirty code. The client is unaware that the end product has a whole bunch of issues.
I've had too many jobs that I dig into and find out there are tons of issues that need resolved just to accomplish what I was hired to do. The middleman usually doesn't care and won't understand why the project took twice or triple the time.
This is why I won't do fixed price contracts unless I have known the client for a while and fully vetted the project, and even then I prefer hourly.
The end conclusion to freelancing is to hold out for good clients that will pay an appropriate amount, and to stay far away from middlemen types.
Oh, middlemen are a real problem. I read a post in Upwork's forums about someone complaining about translation farmers. There are people who list themselves as "native" speaker in over 20 languages and just subcontract everything for pennies on the dollar.
I just went through this experience and I can confirm everything said in the video is 100% accurate. If you're a dev from a developed first world country and new, you won't make ends meet, not even after 5 months! I've got more than 10 contracts and I have a perfect 100% 5-stars rating as a full stack developer. I did a bit more than 1000 dollars throughout the whole time.
So finally I decided to deprioritize Upwork and work for other entities. Furthermore the platform is very buggy. Support is an unmitigated disaster, especially software wise. Their stupid AI support bot is absolutely useless. Frankly it's just an embarrassingly bad company running a business model that rises questions regarding ethics.
My wife tried it. The clients appreciated someone who spoke English and listened to instruction. She got contact info for steady work, went true freelance. But in the end, the fee, the constant changes and undercutting has made it garbage.
how did she go true freelance how does she market
@@JJ-vp3bd by getting a phone # and talking to the person and then setting up payment outside of upworks. You're better able to sell yourself actually talking to someone vs email.
@@buildingwithtrees2258 I am doing that right now but its equally hellish because paypal...paypal allow your client to charge a claim and me as service provider found helpless in term of dispute, can you imagine when you refuse to work at Saturday that client filed a claim for given service and now my paypal is locked.
My wife went with bank transfers or checks, either personal or money order. Once it's clear, the watermarks come off.
Any of it is a hassle. Local is best, knock on doors. 2nd best is small biz, national or international.
@@theman3282 I don't know if it's better, but you might try Stripe.
Just wait until LinkedIn makes this a feature.
SHONNER I’ve been looking forward to this for at least 3 years!
Looks like LI is already doing it. Its a little disturbing because LI is billed as a professional platform, but if they've created an "Upwork/Guru/eLance/Moonlighter" atmosphere, it will go down the same path as all the others. Bottom line is that you have to find high value clients outside online platforms and within a valuable network and leave the "race to the bottom" for the el cheapo budgets and client you would never be able to build a long term relationship with anyway.
@@xlnt3d01 no doubt high-value clients can be found in your immediate environment, I've found and worked with a few, but these jobs don't make you a full-time freelancer, it only makes you a side-hustle freelancer, cos you can't find high paying jobs, pay per hour kind of jobs, long-term relationship kind of jobs through this means, but we know for a fact that if you intend to grow your company or yourself towards high-value income in the range of 6-8 figures per year, then the online platforms is the sure bet. I've been working full-time as a freelancer for 5 years so I know, one very good client who has a good budget for their project and has a good knowledge of what they want can change your story forever, trust me, it's like magic. They will just do what you say, respect you as professional and always pay you what you ask for (I've found and worked with clients like this through this same Upwork).
If LI should add this as a feature it will be the first time I'll see the value in paying for the premium plans.
Just saying, who cares if they go in the same path as the rest, LI has the users, it has been completely packaged as a professional platform, I'm sure they wouldn't copy paste and repeat the same mistakes the others have made.
In conclusion, if working as a freelancer is your dream, money shouldn't be your main focus for the first 2-3 years!
That's why you want to learn to bid less than your normal rate in the very beginning, proof yourself and leave the rest for God. If you deliver relentlessly, the clients will stick to you for as long as you want. Of course, there will be a few crazy clients, just don't give up. At the end of the day, isn't that the way to build a real business?
@@adewolemayowa I don't know to be honest. I do agree with you about finding 1 or 2 anchor clients that can help you sustain steady cash flow. I have 2 steady clients I've worked with since 2000 and a few others that I've worked with for years, but we only work together occasionally. Then I have a few one-offs. From the one-offs, I try to develop any with serious potential and needs to consistent work and with all I try to develop referral business. I use the online platforms for filler work and to round everything out. However, clients I develop face to face and offline are my highest paying, consistent and trustworthy.
Yikes 😳😬
Also, Upwork has the right to block your account is not obliged to inform you about the reason, which will lead to you losing any money that's left on your account.
They banned my account, because of account sharing...
That's not even true😂
What sucks even more is that they ask for documents that can be used to steal your identity. Interestingly the people handling your documents are in third world countries.
I bloody got blocked today itself and they've completely closed my account, and I've lost all money I'd got on there
That’s what just happened to me. They banned me for suspicious activity and I’m like, wtf I haven’t even been logged on recently
@Krystal Lynn Thanks for destroying my chances of even starting. Oh well. I don't know what to do at this point. Amazon FBA seems difficult to start. Especially with everyone going on now.
correction, you don't get free connects per month anymore in Upwork.
ARE YOU SERIOUS! omg
Leave that platform to the thirdworlders.
Woow
Makes sense for them as it's one way to "improve" the "value" of the monthly versus free.
@@amateruss thirdworlders make bank with it though
I'm a freelance writer on Upwork and I totally agree. They do lots of things in favor of the client to the point where you can lose your shirt from how unfair it is. Clients can easily add requirements AFTER you win the job. They don't have to be specific and nothing can stop them from giving you a ridiculous amount of extra work.
Plus Upwork allows clients 14 days to approve work! That's ridiculous. It used to be 5. In addition, they hold on to the money AFTER the client approves the work for 5 business days. They claim that they hold on to the money to make sure it clears. That's total BS and they know it. We live in digital world people! So, you could end up waiting 19 days before getting paid...
They're a RIP off and I want out. I'm so sick of it.
Upwork is a race to the bottom in price unfortunately. I think I've heard you say that before as well. Will check this out later. Hope you're doing well!
Only if you allow yourself to be a commodity.
Upwork = waste of your time
So, so true. I demand that all new freelancers trying Upwork should first create a fake job related to their skill. I did this and saw 40+ proposals from editors/ghostwriters from Harvard to English teachers. Broke my heart.
On another note: Traditional freelancing is scary, but the worst people can do is ridicule you. Ridicule is cheaper than $20/month on Upwork connects. Guess I’ll face my fear of rejection.
Speaking truth as usual. These videos should be mandatory in any comp sci 101 course.
NIce contents bro. I can relate as I've been using Upwork for a little while now, and I can't really see any monetary benefits it has brought to my freelance career. You spend hours writing proposals for peanut. I think approaching clients head-on or maybe doing email marketing is way better. You have all the control and set your own standards. Subscribed!!
Joshua Fluke does not give good news. But he tells the bitter truth. Somehow he analyzes on point. We need a salty honest dude like this to offer us the actual reality. Thank you Joshua. Include a donation link, so we can donate you.
Our Josh is systematically ripping every online platform out there 😂😂
Just the ones that take advantage of you
Joshua Fluke I wuv you bro!
I should've seen this video, dogshit experience in upwork 2024. I ended up working for free
I think I know why they keep doing this. They don't care about the freelancers on their platform because they don't have to. By looking through the search filters, there are currently around 200,000 jobs posted and more than 4,000,000 freelancers on the website (though I can't tell how many of them are active, let's be generous say 50%). So there are 10x more freelancers on the platform than there are jobs at any given time. With numbers like this, upwork can do whatever they like and nothing can stop them aside from maybe a complete boycott (which will never happen. As stupid as the microtransactions are, quite a few people still manage to make a living there and probably wouldn't just leave like that).
Senatrius I think there are less than 50% active freelancers, also some of the jobs need more than 1 freelancer.
Companies like this take a hugely profitable field and turn it into a dime a dozen thing just to make profits. Now, even good paying work is easily outsourced. You aren't just competing with American anymore, but the entire world.
I completely get where you're coming from, but I disagree with a lot of what you said in this video. I've been working as a freelance web developer solely through Upwork for the last 4 months, and it's worked really well from me. Here are some of my thoughts about your comments:
1. 1:48 it's true there are plenty of people hiring on Upwork that think like this: looking for developers from developing markets who charge less (often China in the case of Vue, which I mostly work with). However, there are also plenty of clients who know that it's often better to go with someone who charges a slightly higher fee but produces quality work, and is fluent in the language spoken by the client. I don't undercut - I actually tend to propose a higher fee than the client's budget, because this allows me to filter out the clients looking for cheap but shitty labour, and get hired by the high-quality clients who value high-quality work. I tried several other freelance sites before Upwork, and Upwork has the largest proportion of genuinely good clients, compared to sites like Freelancer (where absolutely this point is valid)
2. 3:28 You're right. The fees are outrageous. But the reason they're able to charge them is that, at the end of the day, they are one of the best sources of work for freelancers. Yes I could go out and knock on doors to find someone who wants a website, but time is money, and in my case I'm more than happy to fork over the 20% fee in exchange for avoiding this waste of time. Once I've built a relationship with the client I move off of Upwork and circumvent the fees (for both parties). As for connects, well, I hate them too, but I can't help feeling that the reason the quality of work is better than Freelancer is thanks to the connects system avoiding a torrent of copy and paste applications from talentless developers. Connects are never unaffordable if you're keeping to a moderate amount of applications. I spend around 15 minutes writing each proposal and making sure it's super personalised.
3. 6:06 Never looked into their paid subscriptions, don't feel like I need them. Sound about as useless and scammy as you say.
4. 8:50 Fortunately I haven't had any clients try to run off without paying me, but this is actually a big advantage of Upwork, not a drawback (and one of the reasons they can get away with the 20% fee!). May be different in the US, but in the UK where I live it's very difficult to chase up a client who decides not to pay for your work, even with a signed contract. The cost of legal fees means that in most cases when this happens to a freelancer they tend to just bite the bullet. Upwork keeps funds in escrow and has a dispute system which should help avoid situations like this.
5. 10:25 Yes, just like job descriptions, clients ask for the perfect candidate. But over half the contracts I've successfully gotten I haven't met the requested "requirements". I try to make my proposals super detailed to the point that the client overlooks the benchmarks they've set, and any other successful freelancer does the same whether they're using upwork or not.
Sorry for the super long comment, just wanted to share my experiences. I agree that once you've got an expansive portfolio you're probably better off looking for contract jobs on a normal job site. But for a junior web dev like me, Upwork has been great and I've made over double what I'd make as a junior developer in a permanent role.
I've used Upwork for years and have over 300K in projects on there. I agree with all of your statements. This video is great for freelancers who do well on that platform since it discourages other freelancers to use it. So lets try to keep it a secret. Heh.
Totally agree, you only need to keep your standards. There is quite a number of serious clients there unlike other platforms like freelancer.com.
Thank you for the detailed insight, helps bring perspective to this video.
Yes, exactly!
I have clients outside of upwork, but my experience with the upwork clients is often smoother. The platform just removes some of the things I have to deal with otherwise. It's not a US thing, I just think he probably hasn't had enough experience on the platform to understand. When I was new, it was difficult to get any responses. But once I got that first job or two, it became quite easy.
Simple strategy, convince an off platform client to hire him on upwork and take that 20% loss. It will boost him enough that he'll start getting a lot of work.
Thanks for the comment. Whenever I watch a video with a biases opinion about something I forget that this is just a biased opinion and the comments section always tends to remember me that!
Who on earth rushes to watch ur videos as soon as they premiere, just to downvote?? 🤨🤔 dang thats dedication
Probably those nerds from Reddit
People who are muted in the chat
3 dedicated individuals
Those ppl who wanted a job when he was a CEO of Google, Facebook, Apple and Microsoft 😂
Joshua's dedication worth much much more than the downvote of a few whose still are oblivious to corporate crap.
Those who downvote must be those predatory HR people or "C E O ' S". DISGUSTING.
We support you Josh!!!
IMPORTANT: Recently they disabled free monthly connects. You HAVE to buy connects if you want to apply to jobs at all!
Love this type of content Josh. I really enjoy the thorough explanations of these platforms that are designed to exploit IT professionals. It is extremely tough to compete in an outsourced job market like Upwork, and I appreciate the understanding of how time could be more efficiently used to pursue more fruitful job hunting endeavours.
I charge $200/hr on Upwork. I get at least one invite to apply for a gig every day. The people who struggle on Upwork are competing on price instead of value. Just offering a different perspective.
200 an hour and one invite daily? What services do you offer, remote healing of chronic diseases? :-P
I charge 30 usd and lose gigs to 10 usd an hour people all the time.
@@browsergamesGR Marketing. It's important to set the right frame. You can't compete on price. You have to deliver enough value so it makes it worth it for them to pay you more. In my case, I help clients make more money and have a good track record. It's not all about being good at what you do as that should be a given. It's more about frame, sales, and building a long-term relationship with the clients.
@@brandonwilliams9192 Do you ever suggest that you get paid directly instead of going through upwork?
@@ericyuan9718 its usually better to keep the contract on upwork to build more social proof in the form of reviews. After $500 in revenue, you're only paying 10%. That said, as a result of my Upwork profile, I've made 5x what it actually says on there. This is because you can use it as a reference when doing outreach and because people find you by email or LinkedIn after seeing your profile.
Glad I watched this video. Won’t be going to Upwork.
I've applied for 20 jobs on upwork already. And still buying connects! No client contacted me, only two watched my proposal. Not sure what's going
Yes; I looked on Upwork - was thinking about doing some software QA freelance work. But I saw that people were freelancing for ultra-insane low hourly rates - like almost minimum wage - it was crazy. I had just come from a job making $130K a year and there were people offering to do similar work for 10 to 20 an hour.
Look for Premium clients willing to pay premium rates
That just means your job was overpaid.
@@egdman the opposite
@@egdman you're dead wrong
@@AFMCarlos can you explain how can we find as such?
To be a freelancer in a freelancer website are like to be a man in a dating App/Website. You are NOT allowed to win.
Nice video! The basic principle is that anytime you make something easier for everyone, the barrier to entry decreases and competition soars. This is why I avoid these crowded "freelance" websites. This is the shortcut scam at work.
Now I’m going to get ads from upwork for the rest of the day.
yikers
@@mahadehasanyt try ad blocker lol
I have been free lancing for years and have only gotten 1 job from upwork and it was for dirt cheap. I have found more work Through networking and applying for jobs online and offering my services as a contractor rather then an employee.
Up work was a successful service for friends of mine.
It introduced new workers to the tech industries, especially those who were career shifting.
Those with real credentials could use established channels or self promotion.
One friend did the testing then found a support job for a modeling software firm answering tickets. She did amazing and they switched her to google after a few months. Now she leads dev teams internationally, as google has a large outsourced workforce. She has a revolving contract with Upwork.
I think you need to live super cheap, move to a cheap country, enjoy travel, have few ties, and enjoy your solitude, as you don’t live in a work environment.
This person did have a degree mostly completed in astrophysics and years as a restaurant entrepreneur. She could learn super fast, lived to code, and manage employees, a rare find.
At middle age how could she think of career switching into a tech field? A bankrupt with no direct tech work experience? No courses? Nothing.
In a way Upwork does add market liquidity, at a cost of course.
I’m looking forward to competitors in freelance temp marketing. Those fees are too high.
That's complete bullshit, i kind of doubt your older then 15 years. You can't just work from everywhere, you have to manage your taxes, you have to pay social benefits, otherwise you will get your bank accounts frozen regardless if you have money in them or not.
You can go on vacation and still "work" from Upwork, but technically you have to go back after depending on where you are few months back because there is this thing permit to stay in any country and most tourist can't linger more then few months without citizenship, Oh and if you make crumbs on the plate from Upwork, there is a very high chance that when you get back you will most likely have to pay more in taxes then what you made overseas when you deduct the flight tickets.
Very insightful. So happy that I found your channel and this video. Thank you.
holy snap Josh, I was just looking at upwork today
Josh, you are insightful beyond your years. Doing God's work on your channel for devs.
I understand that Upwork is a crappy platform, and that it's easier to just apply for a contract job and not pay the crazy 20% rate to Upwork every time we work with a new client. If you live in a developed country like US, it's easier to say that. For the ones that live in third-world countries, where the situation is terrible and even if you got a degree in an american university, it's pretty hard to just apply to jobs on indeed and get a chance to work in the US or any other developed country since there's a lot of restrictions and most of jobs that offer sponsorship or work permit ask for 2 years or more of true industry experience (most of the time they ditch experience acquired in a third-world country). To some of us Upwork might be our only option to grow and make money. Just putting out there a different perspective. Besides that, I totally agree with your videos, and that 5% rate, most of the time is not even reached at all, it's hard to get clients to work long-term with, most of clients I get, ask for 2-3 projects, and then they never come back to the platform. Because it seems like clients only use this platform when they have extra work they cannot handle in their companies, or when they are starting new projects or ideas. There's not full freelance companies, so you will be changing clients all the time. Something I hate a lot, is when you see a job post, you apply to it, and then you see that the client never checked it again, and left that job post abandoned, you don't get your connects back for dumb job posts that were not taken seriously. I have had clients ask for something on their job post, and then when you get an interview they start asking for different things or different software's or skills they never specified. And that is connects wasted that you don't get back. I hate that almost all of the job posts ask for 4-6 connects, the majority ask for 6 connects, and that makes me so mad, that's almost a dollar wasted for even jobs that are not that complex, and ask for dumb things that can get done in less than a week. I wish there was another freelance platform that would make things easier for us.
Apparently there's no more free connects. So GG Upwork. One more reason.
Courses - Grindreel.academy
470-10 likes to dislikes ratio, pretty impressive. Where are the blue guys more blue than my avatar image ? :))
Grindreel Academy, where most content is exempt from enrollment?
Do you work with a waiting list or the first 3 days of the month or any system? Cheers.
Taking away free connects can actually make Upwork more appealing for employers, which potentially will create more work for "Freelancers" who are willing to pay a few cents to apply. Without free connects, you add a pay wall that will discourage the FLOOD of people who YOLO apply for jobs. Now each job will get a much better spread of meaningful applicants. Again, I can't stress enough how its a shitshow if you specialize in more mainstream programming like Javascript, HTML, CSS, etc.
I love your rant and general view of things on Corporate America, however as someone who has made over 300K on Upwork over the past few years (you can look me up) and continuing to do more business on Upwork, I would say that while Upwork is far from perfect, there are a lot of great clients on that platform, whether first time or not, that need the help and willing to pay not necessarily the bottom dollar for the help. Of course you will find tons of lowballers and clients that can ghost you. However you have to keep applying for projects until you find those great clients. I should probably make a video on tips and tricks on how to use Upwork. I will say that some clients do look for only US based "freelancers", because there are just a lot of problems with these overseas agencies with communication and understanding requirements and these US Based jobs won't allow anyone outside of US to apply. I would also pay attention to the description of the jobs as you can definitely see (not always) if the client is just looking for cheap labor.The game is not strictly of who has the lowest prices some clients actually offer a more reasonable budget. For me I always want to do hourly unless the budget looks proper. Connects actually use to cost more and they made connects and applying to jobs cost less to $1 per job post. It used to cost $2 per job post regardless of small or big job. This was great for me as there would be less people who would apply. I've probably spent over 20k in connects and other Upwork fees and while that is a lot I would gladly pay it for talking to potential clients I find on there. I would say that this video is great for me since it discourages other freelancers to use it.
@@offset25 drop the knowledge of how to use it. Were noobs
I like your transparency regarding theses B.S. scam companies.
man it feels great to know that theres other people out there that knows upwork is just a big scam cause thought i was literally the only guy that saw it
Upwork isn’t a scam, it just sucks 😭😂 it’s for guys who read 4 hour workweek and wanna start a marketing agency by hiring people for $2 an hour
He is stating some facts. But he is also pretty misleading. I make a significant portion of my income from the platform, and I live in a high cost city. When I was new, it was difficult to get any clients. But after the first 1-2, it was easy money. My minimum rate is $20/hourly. I have charged more.
I'm not saying my experience is everyone's experience, but I do know that it can be a valuable platform.
1 strategy is to convince an off platform client to hire you on the site. Take that 20% loss because the excellent review along with the job being evidence that you can be trusted will lead to more and more clients willing to pay your rate. They will come to you and you won't have to use connects. I have yet to purchase connects.
I also like upwork because I'm 1 person who really doesnt want to have to build and maintain a website, do marketing, and all of those things needed when you have to sell yourself off platform. As far as the agency, $20/mo for payroll is amazing lol. They are charging, but you also have to consider how much these things would cost in time and money if you had to do them off platform. There is always a cost to doing business.
I would never take someone off platform. It's easy to get banned that way. Every time a client or a freelancer has tried to take me off platform, they have been scammers. I'm sure there are people who don't scam who also do this, but they are outnumbered by the scammers.
mikochild2 this channel is for betas that like to bitch, moan and complain with others who like to do the same, but thank you for sharing your experiences.
I suspected a lot of this but I didn't know it was that bad. Thank you.
Thanks man, for saving me from more stress, time wasted and money lost. Its hard enough trying to be a freelancer without companies like these creating a race to the bottom market and fostering a lower sense of value for our work in the eyes of potential clients.
UpWork is what you make of it. I've had success and I hold at my high rate and I get work... I don't even apply, the jobs come to me. So, technically in my case it's been BETTER than freelancing because I don't even look or apply for work anymore. It took months to get to that point but man, I am so glad I put the work in. In any case, UpWork and/or freelancing won't make you rich but it will help you build savings and a portfolio. Yet, if you are really that good on a platform like UpWork, you should be able to channel those skills into something that you own. At the very least you could fund a project with those savings so you go from being an UpWork contractor to a client, which is pretty cool when you think about it. Anything is possible.
this video is eye opening, especially about the shady practices businesses pull on freelancers
You're so honest dude
I agree with you
Excellent content - you have saved me a lot of blood sweat and tears.
This channel is becoming a non-bullshit discussion. Keep up doing videos like this josh
Many very valid points in this video, and certainly a worth while use of anyone's time who is considering making themselves available on the Upwork platform. The general premise of not falling under the umbrella of true freelancing, points made about the fee structures, clients power over contractors and several more will receive no arguments from me. One minor point of contention from a factual standpoint, would be that making a bot to log in and click around would keep you as active, unfortunately they view activity as earning money on the platform and not simply "activity" in the more general sense. So to that end, staying active is a bit involved than it's made to seem here.
The rest of what I have to say is purely based on my own experience, and not meant to detract in any way from your viewpoints, as again many of them are valid and certainly things that the site themselves aren't going to advertise. With that preamble in mind, my experience has differed in a few key aspects:
1)As illogical as it seems on the surface, I have found that consistently increasing the price of jobs (even when starting out) has been far more successful than trying to undercut other users. I've done that with almost no exceptions, and my hire rate is consistently at the very top of the spectrum. The primary key to making this work is writing thoughtful proposals, centered around the specific ways you can help them accomplish their goals and then asking for a time to get them on the phone/video chat and using that to differentiate yourself from the low effort proposals submitted by others. imgur.com/VR2MwIj
2) Once you have put in time on the platform and built a reputation, good opportunities present themselves on an extremely regular basis. And while I absolutely recommend making sure you have additional sources of income/work outside of the platform, it does give you peace of mind knowing that if you ever do find yourself needing work that it will be available. I respond and clear out my interview invitations on at least a once a week basis and right now I have 9 more waiting should I need them. In fact, of the 10 jobs I've applied for in the past 3 months, all but 1 was something I was invited to apply for and I almost never seek out new work on my own. imgur.com/a/s1rWyrl
Upwork also charge extra VAT for some countries. For example Russian freelancers pays 20 fee +4 VAT =24% total fee
That's not Upwork fault, though. If you live in the VAT zone, you pay VAT for any goods and services imported from the non-VAT zones (e.g., USA).
I am a freelancer from upwork for almost 3 and a half years. Connects were free back in the days, but now you should pay to have it. And actually, on my experience, connects is garbage! Almost all of my jobs are from invitation from the clients since the beginning of my career on upwork. And invitation do not need connects. Connects are pretty useless and pretty scam. I have never hired using it and its actually makes sense since there will be a lot of competitions using it for sure. And also almost all of the clients does not care in submitted proposals by the freelancers, they care a lot more on those freelancers that they sent invitations.
Wow wow wow....you said EVERYTHING that I ever was thinking when it comes to this Upwork and freelance business!!! LOL. The clients drive me crazy with changes...and no paying...exactly!!! I am deleting my Upwork for the second time...waste of time. Never got any jobs on there anyway.
Meh, it's worked well for me so far. Traveling and working and able to sustain myself
How much have do you make if you don’t mind me asking!
Good for you but where do you currently reside tho? And how much you make if you dont mind me (and the other guy) asking? Thanks for the reply in advance
@@wonderwoman5528 I make 1000000000000$
@@andeleon6838 I make 1000000000000$
upwork is straight trash. The clients are cheap and want everything without paying competitive wages
If you don't live like us in Asia or Africa you will live the most terrifying days with Upwork plus 8$/hour
I was ghosted several times and tbh I bought connects and never got my money back. I got years of experience outside upwork but seems like I had to really lower down my hourly pay just to compete with others .
I've successfully freelanced and supported my family for over thirty years. I agree with every single thing in this video. Even though my intial google search raised some concerns, I gave Upwork a try six months ago. The first month, I got two decent jobs - wow! Figured it was a good place. Then spent the next six months trudging through race-to-the-bottom listings and people ghosting me after they email me. I've decided to pass. That first month was clearly an anomaly. Quickly became apparent that it's yet another web site great for the initial investors and bad for everyone else.
Keep up the great work and keep shining a light on the scummy shadows.
It is a good place. There are lots of great clients out there. But it takes time to find them.
I have been waiting for this video for 5 months! great effort josh keep it up ♥♥
WTF? that is a complete scam. You don't pay for a subscription from freelancers. Its more for suckers. I bet they also take commission in the transactions.
Mei Hung they do!! They get a cut of every job you get!
20%
Haha - I remember that video where you just walked into the deli to talk business. It was so refreshing and made freelancing look fun! I've lost many many hours on trying to make upwork... I think I was trying to offer my services at something like $5 for ghostwriting a standard, 5-paragraph business letter, or a 350-word bio on a webpage. I ended up not even being considered for the jobs I had applied to. In the end, I just blamed my skills and photo. Me being soft is one thing, but they're just... not helpful at all. So much easier to just get judged fairly by pounding pavement.
I have never even got a job on upwork, my account just sits there.
Me too despite applying for them and checking out every day. But let me see how it goes.
Same here. Wasted hours of work "putting myself out there" for nothing.
They won't even accept my account. Lol
@@Asphyxia612
turns out paypal is not available in my country anyway so I couldn't get paid even if I had a profile that got hits. Thank you.
I had no idea that Upwork tried to wring money out of developers (small pockets) instead of figuring out a way to get their revenue from employers (big pockets). It seems exceptionally greedy to me. They are subjecting their golden goose (developers) to death by a thousand cuts. Not a sustainable strategy.
As long as they make a successful exit at some point right?
Honestly this video is all true. I'm a freelancer and I don't use marketplace sites because I would never get what I'm worth on there. I think Josh should've suggested more in depth alternatives though. Basically everyone that works contracts gets them through word of mouth. If you're in a new area that is difficult which is the situation I, an experienced developer, find myself in currently.
is slavery with extra steps, rick
Nothing is more true.. with technology we have become really smart
Javier Prieto Diaz if ur liking it then u are slave what a thought bro
Its the Uber of web design.
Slavery with extra clicks.
True 💯 I have a very bad experience with freelancing(contract) sites. Also, employers using these sites do not value the quality of work.
The connects are annoying! But they do help avoid people with teams of people applying for every single job.
I feel badly rejected right now. I knew the work I had good intentions, everything and you don't even get single response
I might think this a hate-video towards Upwork that is one of the most professional freelancer platform out there with its ups and downs. But:
1. It's not Upwork's fault that some clients prefer cheaper work - I'm on Upwork for a long time and I've had many great clients with good payment. This thing also happens in real life, not only on Upwork, when others have a better offer. When a company has a project, contractors are coming with their pitch, I think it's the same but maybe much more expensive than paying $15 per month for Upwork.
2. That 20% is reasonable - there is an escrow for them and the money are coming straight into my bank account after 3-4 days when I withdraw; in case I'm working directly with the client there are many issues that could occur: bank fees, trust, transfer fees if the client is from US (I'm from EU), clients paying after 30 days, etc.
3. Easy to create a BOT? What the hell. On Upwork there are people in translations, copywriting, virtual assistants, etc - why do you think that's easy for everyone to "build" a bot?
4. Ignoring the freelancers happens in real life, too, not only on Upwork.
5. Freelancer Plus is $14,99 - that's like two coffees when you are meeting with an eventual client in real life.
6. Do you think that on Indeed or other job websites there's no competition?
The good thing is that if people will take your video for granted and they won't try Upwork or they'll quit it, that's more space for me on that platform, haha!
You pay to apply to jobs lmao
Of course. You pay with time spending on your customised CV, application and portfolio for each potential client that you may or you may not convince. On Upwork you spent time only with customised proposals. But, well... $14.99 would better go for a beer right? :)
I agree with the above poster. This video is great since it will discourage other freelancers.
@@JoshuaFluke1 It may suck to have to pay but it filters out a lot of scammers or non serious bidders. Client's are inundated with seeing even 50+ proposals and having to choose. Once I see a bid that has 50+ proposals in it I don't bother to submit mine since it will most likely not be seen. I tried freelancer.com and since its free its even worse for number of bids a client gets and for the number of times I have tried it and searched for contract jobs, they all seem to be coming from lowballers. In general, because of the above the experience is much worse for both client and freelancer on that platform.
Constantin Nimigean I’ve tried upwork and agree with everything on the video. Your points are clearly supporting your employer.
great video, I've been using upwork since they were called oDesk, it was going good, then they changed their name and their business model, then I found a job outside of the platform and when I came back after 6 months my profile was changed to hidden and now I have to pay so that possible client can see it, this is crazy, you have to pay for everything now and it doesn't guarantee you landing a job.
I'm in Upwork 2 years from now, I have a job but I think upwork sucks, really sucks. They will cut your salary from beginning to the end. So greedy.
You won me over in 20 seconds. Well said!
Oh my God ! You just ticked every box from my frustration list. I saw that a client was searching for expert skills for 10$ an hour......good luck with that
This is by far the most honest review of upwork !
Its like the Uber of Freelancing!
Agreed on most of the things - Upwork's terms are quite terrible, however it's still a good channel for finding new clients. I've made around $150K gross income (video editing/post production) just from Upwork in 3 years, and yes - there are too many people there, and yes, Upwork will try to charge you at every step, but still, I met a lot of clients there that I wouldn't find otherwise, especially by cold-emailing. And yes, there are always fifty bidders who are claiming they can do a thousand-dollar job for $200, but the lesson that I've learnt is that if the client is looking for the unrealistically cheap labour, then they're not my client. And yes, majority of the job posters are there for cheap labour, but you still can find decent clients that are happy to spend a few hundred dolors more to get a better result.
In other words - if you're a freelancer, Upwork is a good platform to be on, just don't rely on it fully, it's just one of the channels for finding new business.
Your channel is one of my favorites. Thanks!
Yo buddy, the video is on point specially thaf I am moving out of upwork currently, can't wait for the course, plz keep us updated.
Love these informative videos.
All what he said is damn accurate based on real experience
I made about $5,000 from 5 jobs on Upwork and now I stopped using it after horrible services. The rating system is highly unfair. The freelancer has no way of seeing who gave you bad review and for what. And if your rating is less than perfect, you can forget about getting any work.
All the Community guru's are forum trolls who only does $9 translation work and tells you to get lost if you give any kind of negative feedback.
Upwork is NOT a freelance resource. It will lose "REAL" quality freelancers fast and with only $9 translators remaining, it will go out very soon.
Thank you very. This is most insightful.
You're absolutely right. Thanks for talking about it.
I've worked on Upwork for over 3 year and it's even worse than you think. Keeping your profile active is not a matter of just logging-in. I wished! If I don't earn money in 3 weeks my profile is automatically hidden. So... Basically they ask you to pay to be active. And when you see the metrics, you see it's not only a race to the bottom but it's also a winner takes it all kind scenario. I bet they have metrics on this and manage to make money from both the winners and the losers.
Of all the sites I worked for, Upwork is definitely the worst. I despise them wholeheartedly. I like the gig economy to a point but this website it's cancer. However, they are so successful, you can't avoid it.
It's weird to say but my experience in Craigslist is way better than in Upwork.
Wow my experience has not been like that and I have been using them for years.
When I tried freelancing, I got quite a few repeat gigs from Freelancer, but not one came through on Upwork. Compared to a normal full-time job, though, all the Freelancer gigs taken together wouldn't amount to a single month's paycheck, and it requires more work, because you have to do all the Product Owner, System Admin, and Customer Training tasks as well as the development.
if you ask you client for email of other contact, your account gets monitored, and u get a warning. Ans possibly banned.
Upwork is not a freelance site it's like an agency as a whole..
Love the new camerawork! You are such a good looking guy that you should showcase it under the best light.
Joshua Fluke is surely shaking some tables.
All the "freelancers" on upwork downvoted this
Why don't people Just reach out to small businesses in there local area why use these platform to begin with
You can take advantage of this as an American:
- I'm from Ann Arbor, MI, USA
- I moved to Tijuana, Mexico, across from San Diego
- I paid $150/month for rent and $150/month for food
- I won a job on upwork from a startup in Boston who took a chance on me even without any experience
- I made $3,000, worked ~400 hours over the month, which comes out to $7.5/hour
I gained valuable experience in my field of choice, and I was able to live comfortably given my cost of living. Was it worth it? Absolutely. Would it be worth it while living in the US? Maybe.
As a junior dev, you need to make a portfolio to prove to employers you can do the job. Most people do these for free. So if I can win a contract on Upwork, I will be paid for work I would otherwise be doing for free anyway.
Is an apartment for $150/mo easy to find there?
@@credman it was a roach motel. A studio on the beach in decent condition will run ~$400/month.
Pull up Tijuana on Airbnb and filter by price. I've found places in multiple South American countries through it.
Or you can live somewhere in the US with a notoriously-lower cost of living (e.g., Idaho, Arizona, Oklahoma, etc.) and bill $65-$105/hr. to tech companies from San Francisco, NYC, Seattle, Austin, Atlanta, Chicago, etc. who consider that rate and those terms to be a pretty damn good deal most of the time.
@thomas samson For single men who avoid being out drunk after midnight, risk is minimal.
@@salembeatslower competition at $10-20/hr mark
If there's anyone on this site I trust to give a review on something, it's Josh. Man just doesn't sugarcoat at all. I rarely ever sub to anyone, but this channel's different. Stay awesome man 🤙
I made an account on upwork so many years ago (I think it was upwork anyway), but when I looked for work everything paid so little I was like why on earth would I do that. Like, I worked in fast food at the time and it would have paid less for more work.
Unlimited sub sandwiches? Omfg I gotta get to coding again
Great content Josh! Thanks mate, you are a legend.
In the words of a bad infomercial actor: "THERE'S GOT TO BE A BETTER WAY!"
I have a dream in a couple of years of building a better job site or freelance haven for developers. Just a pipe dream though.
sounds like a legal nightmare for anyone who will administer such a site. you'll be in the middle of contract squabbles between employer and employee.
i have a dream of building a site too but way more safisticated than upwork and will not be a big scammy biding site like upwork, i dont condone racing to the bottom
Up work is literally the worst. I was job scammed on up work 2 years ago. And every job I've had since has either been a flat out scam. Or resulted in me being severely taken advantage of and mentally abused.
Nic aproach to the topic,I like this new style of moving around keep up the great work
Getting me closer and closer to joining the grindwheel academy... Just have to figure out projects that sell.
I agree, it is a race to the bottom and best to leave the system than use it...
Josh, great video!! I have been working on Upwork and before that Elance since 2013. I agree that you get screwed by the fee's and the recent change to connects etc. I have no idea how to find clients outside of Upwork with any consistency. If anyone has tips on that please let me know. I do content creation (video, writing and photo) and web dev/design. The convenience of Upwork is in not having to find the clients. I agree - working for your self and setting your own rates is the way to go.
LMWBXR , there are a lot of problems besides finding the client. Legal issues, tracking your work, getting paid, etc. I’d rather pay those ridiculous 5% commission
You have to start a local business. Join a chamber of commerce, Advertising, cold calling, marketing, etc. Who said it is easy. If it was easy everyone would do it. Why do you think most people have jobs?
Thanks for the input Josh.
There is a good reason (and only one) that I find in working with Upwork:
If you are interested in going the freelancer route, you can do some small, 1-2 day projects on Upwork, for a low price AND a testimonial/referral. Do a few of them in 2-3 weeks, and you'll have a bit of money and testimonials/people you can refer to in your website.
But nothing past that.
I remember the good ol' days of walking around and talking to business owners. I heard a whole lot of no's but the one yes I got ended up being a cool internship at a recording studio and my friend and I got to hang out with rappers, and do our homework (we were in college) in a high end recording studio. Fun times.
I agree!!! Totally trashed my upwork account!!
hi josh, i do wish you the best of luck. i understand the family situation completely and i stand by your decision i hope one day you can reconnect with your family and for things to get better on that front. I love the content. I am a self taught web developer/software engineer and because of you i know which job postings to steer clear of. Thanks for your work and keep going.
Plus they can ban your account if you review them negatively... My account was just banned today even if I am a top-rated plus freelancer and I can't withdraw the remaining $600 on my Upwork account. I can no longer recover my account.. So who gets the $600? you guess it right.