What comes after Buddhism? | Robert Wright & Stephen Batchelor [The Wright Show]
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- Опубліковано 9 тра 2024
- 01:48 Striking parallels between Buddhism’s Mara and Christianity’s Satan
08:44 How Stephen’s opera Mara came to fruition
22:19 Bob and Stephen argue about the true meaning(s) of “enlightenment”
29:15 How much authority should a secular Buddhist ascribe to the Buddha?
36:22 The perils of clinging to the dharma
49:19 Stephen’s unusual place in the Buddhist world
Robert Wright (Bloggingheads.tv, The Evolution of God, Nonzero, Why Buddhism Is True) and Stephen Batchelor (stephenbatchelor.org, After Buddhism)
Recorded on January 10, 2018
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I first fell deeply in love with The Buddha in 1997….studying with Ajahn Sumedho, Ajahn Amaro for a number of years…leading into Zen at the San Francisco Zen center and also doing many retreats at Spirit Rock over ten years during the 2000 -2010 decade….plus engaging with Vajrayana Buddhism intermittently with a few teachers such as Ken McLeod.
Stephen Batchelor is one of my lucky 🍀 finds during the course of those years reading everything i could get my hands on that he wrote. He is the wonderful breath of fresh air needed to unleash The Dharma to the world in the 21st century. Let Liberty and Freedom flow to highest and lowest places on the planet. I have nothing but deep gratitude to all my teachers who have contributed to my understanding of life….however a special heartfelt appreciation is reserved for Stephen Batchelor for his unparalleled insight into the ethics of uncertainty along with his understanding of the ennobling affects of applying the actions necessary to taste nirvana that is closer than our own nose - immediately in this very moment. Alhamdullilah 🦅❤️🔥🌎
I am 34 year old Indian, after all distractions, I stared loving buddha.
It has given me peace not any religion.
Siddhartha Gautam probably would have been very fascinating Character in real life. 👍
Thank you for having Stephen Batchelor on again. We need more people like him.
batchelor has done a great deal to move the understanding of buddhism along. he's always engaging and very helpful. i don't think it's necessary for the modern world to let go of buddhism in order for the dharma to flourish. that might be true for some people, but not others. the "religious" trappings of buddhism, such as chanting, temples, being around saffron-robed monks, buddhist tapestries and statues, can be effective aides in helping us drop into meditation. i can meditate anywhere, but i do find these things helpful. as far as the supernatural stuff goes, it is not helpful to me and i dont like when it comes up too much in the local sangha. it creates arguments, fosters a sense of one person being "more buddhist" than the next guy (and, conversely, one person being "more rational" than the next guy), creates dissension. i don't care whether on not a buddhist teacher personally holds these supernatural beliefs, but i do step away from them when they feel they must press these beliefs on others. that is neither skillful, nor helpful.
The only other person I have read and heard express the idea of Buddhism so well was Joseph Campbell, Stephen Batchelor expresses similar ideas very well and I agree 100%. Thank you! I wish Joseph Campbell was still around for a session with Robert.
Einstein himself said that “If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism”.
Applause to Mr. Batchelor for recognizing a need to let go of the raft! I'm looking forward to seeing what comes from the next part of the journey.
This is one of the best interviews on this site. No BS.
did you mean pure BS? because it IS. :)
@@gramu5029it is more accurate to say BullsEye rather than Bullshit….don’t forget they laughed and were threatened by Galileo, Copernicus, Giordano Bruno at first…so maybe it might behoove you take a view from above before you expose your closed mind by shouting out BS - that only fools cry out in desperation with because they are already locked into a dead end view -- Capice???
I think Stephen's point that Mara represents an inherent propensity in humans is borne out and represented in the many many stories of spiritual teachers who have fallen for Mara's temptations even late in their careers.
Great conversation
Great talk!
I found it very interesting. It’s good to see how SB look at the various aspects of Buddhist teachings and myths and understand the essence in dharma. I am in agreement with his views.
A fascinating and informative discussion, Thanks Robert & Stephen.
great, interesting, intelligent, original conversation. thanks!
Mr Batchelor is a credit to Buddhism. He is popularizing a form of dharma practice that renders it useful to people who would be turned off by more religiously oriented versions. There are sutra (canki) which attempt to reach a similar audience by having the Buddha say that dharma practice is beneficial whether or not one believes any supernatural claims.
The Bhuddha is beyond boundaries. Batchelor is uneducated in buddhism. he is trying to destroy it by saying it is just christianity in another form.
@@gramu5029 yaa i would agree in you claim
Those who disbelieve in and openly reject the reality of rebirth have not understood it properly. Neither do they understand the true nature of consciousness. Because of their basic inability or unwillingness to reject identification with the body - which is never truly alive and only appears to be due to the presence of consciousness, and instead seeing themselves as consciousness, which is existence itself and can never die - they remain in ignorance. That which can die was never truly alive to begin with, and that which is truly alive can never die. This is fundamental fact.
Sounds Like “The Deathless”
“There Is No Death, There Is Only A Change Of Worlds”
- Chief Seattle
Can See his development over the years Mr Batchelor
Love it!
In my opinion, the Buddha answered the question of "reincarnation" by his experience of liberation when he reviewed all of his previous incarnations...
Yeah I was thinking about that. Those passages are definitely assuming reincarnation is real.
@@philosophyjunkies6693 Don't believe everything u read, u might just get fooled. Reincarnation, maybe or maybe not, who knows.
Around 35:30 - also could include The 10 Oxherding Pictures: riding the ox back home and then forgetting the ox
Enjoyable chat.
If you read the Pali Suttas the Buddha describes meditation for the most part in terms of entering The Jhanas which lead to insight - Vipassana. I wouldn’t characterise Vipassana Meditation as ‘The Theravadan method’. The specific Sutta escapes me at the moment, but there is at least one wherein the Buddha describes different types of meditators and their attainments and that of the ‘dry meditator’, as it’s translated, is mentioned; is one that appears like unto a vipassana meditator.
Shikantaza (Zazen) provides the same access as Vipassana, Dzogchen, and Mahamudra they are they key 🔑 that opens the dharma gates 🦅
It was startling to hear Bob's suggestion that the human propensity to believe in infallible authority and divinity is a harmless hook that can, perhaps should, be used by proponents of meditation/mindfulness practice in order to draw people to what might be useful behavior. It seems to be incongruous with his agnosticism and his impressive and useful book, The Evolution of God, which explores religious beliefs and the hypocrisy and misguidance thereof, . The metaphysics and worshipping of authority that Buddhism generally entails are not anymore benign than those of Islam or Christianity. The attachment to dogma and absolute truth which is an attribute of all of these religions is a major source of the intolerance and conflict that has plagued religious societies through much of human history. I find Stephen’s secularism compelling and inspiring. He is a wonderfully articulate and thoughtful proponent of secular mindfulness, and he played a major role in bringing me to that practice ,as did Bob. On further reflection, I am overdramatizing the issue, as I am wont to do. It’s not like Bob is encouraging people to be be dogmatic in their religion. I’m going to chill out about this, as Stephen obviously has.
well written, u sound like a wordsmith, u have a gift, keep walking in the light.
Hi, thank you for the conversation. I am wondering if either one of you have heard of a book called “Unlocking the Mysteries of Birth and Death”?
Be not deceived. You shall know them by their Fruits. The Fruits are Love, Peace, Joy, Kindness, Goodness, Compassion (Passion for All)...Communicating, Communing, Connecting with everyone and everything, in each and every moment of daily life.
Totally Free from fear, anxiety, personal sorrow, hatred, loneliness, inner conflicts, inner contradictions, jealousy, envy, greed, possessiveness, competitiveness, and attachments.
Totally Free from beliefs, philosophies, ideologies, theories, opinions, perspectives, biases, prejudices, nationality, and identifications.
Totally Free from stories, experiences, knowledge, images.
Totally Free from the I, the me, the self, and the so-called True or Higher Self, which is the invention of the past conditioning of the brain.
Totally Free of any psychological filter, which limits, colors, shapes, and distorts Perception.
Being Lucid, they actually treat everyone, without exception, with the same intensity and quality of care and affection that they would give to their dearest closest friend or child, without any sense of division, separation or distance, in each and every moment of their daily life.
Enlightenment does not take time. Enlightenment is not of time. It is not a process. It is not the product of time or the things of time, eg. method, technique, diet, yoga. There is no path to it. It is effortless and choiceless. It happens faster than the speed of light. Moreover, it is once and for all, now and forever.
Do Jacob's Ladder. Set yourself Totally Free of fear, anxiety, sorrow, envy, greed, jealousy, violence, hatred, loneliness, attachments, competitiveness, ambition, bias, and prejudice in daily, once and for all, now and forever. There's no reason why anyone need waste another day trapped in the Matrix of self-deceptions. See my group on FB called "Total Enlightenment NOW!".
😊🙏
Buddhism is the Eternal Now.
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i would says I am very glad to comes across this best interview in my life times. Thank you for sharing.
he recollected previous lives a feature of being a buddha
Why didn't mention Arahant in this conversation? Only Arahant could left the "raft"( Dhamma and Vinaya), and continue the journey. After all , all the disciples of the Buddha( include layperson), must stick to the Dhamma and Vinaya--so called the raft, until they attain arahantship. But even they attain the arahantship, the great disciple of the Buddha still speak the Dhamma, like the venerable Sariputta, Moggallana, and many more, Why? because the Arahant is "reincarnation" of the Dhamma itself. They don't need the Dhamma ( the raft) anymore in the sense that they automatically spoke Dhamma, i.e Arahant=Dhamma. So if you speak that you don't need Dhamma anymore, then you probably attain arahantship, for I could not think otherwise.
I think you're misrepresenting Richard Dawkins. He never cites Darwin as an authority but in admiration for his honest stance in answering for his work in the face of discriminatory authorities. You got him backwards.
Authorities are useful only in so far as their pronouncements are clearly understood and analyzed, not just what they say or write, of course, but also what they do. I I h to choose between tease I’d favour the latter.
I believe he agrees with you*) Says something close to 'i dont give buddha trancendent authority just as Dawkins doesnt do so to Darwin but we both see them as central figures and authorities to refer to and investigate'. A few minutes later uses the well known metaphor as dharma as raft to use as a tool, not to be overly attached but make use of and leave behind. Cheers;)
I being an Indian can understand where this debate about rebirth and Buddhism ..
Rebirth is a concept that was very much prevalent in Hinduism and Siddhartha being an Indian and a Hindu it seemed natural for Buddhist followers to adopt that concept of rebirth
Chinth Madhu the Buddha didn’t claim to invent rebirth. He was taught by 3 teachers in meditation and being that they had attained mental states that correspond to a specific realm of rebirth, I assume he knew very well about reincarnation before he claimed to see it more clearly as rebirth after his enlightenment.
So Stephen Batchelor is the founder of the new denomination of Buddhism......akin to Methodist, Baptist, etc.
Although he makes some interesting points, I feel that at the end of the day he proposes another way of materialism, albeit in the spiritual area. If you put the trascendent away, then it is not Buddhism. It is just another line of theraphy.
Belief is what people cling to when they don't have the experience. People seem to enjoy killing for their religious beliefs. The kindergarten mind clings to beliefs and dogmatic idea's. Taking pride in using the speech faculty through the evangelization of idea's is troubling. The world needs real heroes not talk heroes. Less talk more action. Become the living gospel yourself, by how you live your life.
Stephen Batchelor says Buddha himself doesn't believe rebirth or reincarnation. That's a big lie. Buddha had access to his hundreds of past lives when he enlightened and he told those livestories as jataka stories.
I believe he said (in others talks) that not all the texts in the canon were really based in Buddha experiences which of course let everything in doubts. On the other hand is probably possible that a wise man (Buddha) would had had to deal with a tradition of thousands of years of believing in reencarnation so he accepted it, that's the reason that enlightenment considers among others things the end of reencarnation
Exactly so. Thanks.
"As soon as Buddha stopped compulsively identifying the thoughts, feelings, and sensations that arose within him as “me” or “mine,” Mara could no longer influence him." Mara operates as lord of the sensual realm including some heavenly realm (resides in 11th pf 31 planes). Going against the stream of sensual desire, ingrained biological/psyvhological drives and taints is going against the stream of death (mara) to the sream of deathless, noble ones enter. Buddhadharma is more accurate than Buddhism. BuddhaDharma has six attributes.
Buddhism can be simplified;
1. We all suffer.
2. To end suffering, think correctly.
Nothing is needed after you learn these two nobel truths. Thinking correctly leads you to the rest of the 8 fold path. Thinking correctly will solve your problems that lead to suffering. The relationship between quantum physics and Buddhism is irrelevant. Reincarnation is irrelevant. God is irrelevant. Dont waste time on irrelevant issues.
Hey now, the limbic system isn't always the bad guy! We need him to breathe. :)
Nirvana
At 29:15 Wright destroys the whole basis for Batchelor's methodology and Batchelor joins in and undercuts any basis for his teaching other than "improvement of one's life". But what is an improvement?
Buddhism and any other spiritual or religious - - - oops, "metaphysics" - is about "what is an improvement?".
If you assume "improvement of one's life" to be what conventional human society says (money and status), then successfully committing crimes to enrich oneself is "dharma" according to Batchelor. Of course, he would say it is not. But there is no way you can say "harming others is wrong" without metaphysics.
The usual response to that is something like "humanism is obviously best for everyone" - but - the idea of that one should do things that are best for everyone requires metaphysics. The difference between living to be selfish and not doing so, requires metaphysics. In fact, the idea "there are other minds other than my own" requires metaphysics.
So, Wright's "agnostic" viewpoint works simply because he leaves the metaphysics as an exercise for the reader, while Batchelor's claim that there is any possibility of spiritual teaching without metaphysics is simply wrong. And the fact that Batchelor has done Buddhist meditation for so many years without himself encountering "subjective private states" that prove some of the metaphysics (to oneself), means that he is unqualified to teach others.
Dumb Dee dumb dumb dumb
Respectfully disagree about the Enlightment part. Enlightenment IS after an individual has disolved all negative emotional thought from the Subconscious Mind making it clear as a crystal/entirely transparent....Then comes the Unconscious where we humans have inherited our ethnic traits thoughts from hundreds of generations. Clearing this to crystal requires a Holy person's assistance. Enlightenment IS the light from The Creator / Brahma / Father in Heaven/ Ptah creator of the Gods....Shines into the Person there are various names for the state of Mind that individual has. Such as Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Jivanmukti in Turiya, Christ Consciousness.....Those individuals can perform works that have no discernible cause......Called miracles or Siddhis.
I agree with you. Indeed, the cultivation of peace and love may coincide with Enlightenment, but I have always know the term to refer to the state in which Consciousness becomes its own object and subject of experience. In other words, the object being perceived (Consciousness) and the subject of perception (Consciousness) collapse into one. Maybe this is because I study Advaita Vedanta more than Buddhism...
Joshua Nicholls thanks for the reply I agree Advaita Vedanta is superior to Buddhism. What Buddha says about Life as pain is false...Life is LOVE the pain is the result of finite existence while on Earth....But from the perspective of Brahma/Father it is Heaven.
Also, interesting is Jesus Christ statement. "He who has seen me has seen the Father" From Advaita Vedanta a Jivanmukti in Turiya would say the same thing, "Brahma and a Jivanmukti are ONE". I bet the Magi at Jesus birth were 5th or 6th Jnana Yogins.
Please consider interviewing Jordan Peterson.
Thomas Clements Wright is probably too ideological to do so.
It's become impossible for any intellectual in the West to ignore the significance of Peterson's ideas, particularly in the field of religious psychology.
I sense Wright is probably another smug leftie under the Buddhist veneer. Probably arrogantly considers Peterson beyond the pale of argument.
Thomas Clements I have little doubt of that. Intellectuals in the academy and media are smug and closed minded and bigoted.
And from a Jungian perspective, Peterson represents Wright's shadow side which he hasn't let attempted to integrate.
death
Unsubscribed.
Why?
#triggered
Me too but never did subscribe. Reductive materialism of Batchelor is such a lame belief system.
I like this term, reductive materialism.
BYE FELICIA