@10:20 - This is the best articulation I've heard of an essential point: "even if the fourth leg is not what makes the chair, if you take out half of the fourth leg, the chair is still going to tip over".
I love Linda so much. She voices every frustration I have in such an eloquent and hilarious manner. I love you too, Elio! You're the voice of calmness we all need.
My gut feeling for Bran being King coming from Martin is that I just can't see D&D choosing Bran of their own volition. They consistently didn't care about the character, giving hokey versions of his storylines, leaving him off for seasons at a time. I have a hard time believing if they were changing Martin's pick, they would pick Bran and not a Lannister (or Bronn!). On the other foot, he was our first POV character after the prologue, the direwolf scene of which was Martin's first idea. I could believe the tiniest seed of this idea was the journey from a child to a king. I do think it will be a lot more complicated of a journey and how it will be reached will not be Tyrion saying Bran tells the best stories, although I do think Egg elected by a Great Council may be set-up for Bran. The age thing will DEFINITELY have be addressed although going although with Elio's Bran/Leto II comparison, he too was a child with supernatural means to get wisdom beyond his years. I know Elio's idea for a dream of spring has always been that Bran the Greenseer will see the future from within the tree, but it should be noted that Eddard's "dream of spring" recounted in ASoS is to raise new lords on the Gift land and overall to think for the future beyond pure survival like you do in the winter. Bran is King for the age of rebuilding, of reflection, of renewal, even if he has lost himself.
Great to see you both again! Thanks for everything you did for us while Elio gracefully exited. Really appreciate both of your work, and it's great to see you both onscreen. Can't tell you how much I appreciate and enjoy all of your content!
You know, they had a very hard task and I think part of the reason they curtailed the final seasons was because of how they had burned themselves out doing too much of the work in earlier seasons. I don't think any amount of outside help would have led them to want to rush things at the end.
@@WesterosTV I think you two would have been great handlers of D&D. I mean if George who is genius uses you from time to time. Why wouldn't D&D use someone like the two of you?
Guys... you must do a video on Aerea Targaryen. Please! Theorizing on where she went and what happened would be fascinating. That section of Fire&Blood gave me chills
All those people who claimed to be the "cool fans" of the books on the youtube treated Elio and Linda as snobish book readers for critizing the adaptation, when it started deviating from the books. They all have to swallow a bittershit ending of the show now. HAHAHAHAHAH. At least Elio and Linda already expect it.
I expected some deviations from the books. It is to be expected. But once they got past the source material, I didn't expect D&D to be such outright horrible writers. Seriously, some of the laziest writing that I can recall, offhand. I started to feel real dread for the series with all of the Dorne trainwreck and the constant teleportation. And then it got even worse. Sad ending to what could have been a truly epic series. But least we still have the books!
The book adaptation had nothing to do with the ending. So your argument is useless, it was D&D's original work that ruined the series. Nobody says first four seasons were bad except some snobby book readers.
I love just watching you talk about the books and the show. I always thought the series would end with the battle with the white walkers but unfortunatly D&D started with it.. It just seems strange after the slogan 'Winter is Comming'.. The "winter" threat was defeated to easily and ended way to soon!
Thanks! And agreed, it does seem strange in a sense. I think probably George's notion is going to be more of a simultaneous thing... or we'll have a kind of conflict resolution in the South, followed by the resolution of the existential threat of the Others, and after that an aftermath that returns the story to the human scale and the human tragedy and "the heart in conflict with itself".
Fantastic to see you back, Elio ! Your presence has been sorely missed. I hope we see some more content from the both of you, because your analysis and insight are second to none. Wish you both the best. Cheers.
Bran being King was met with such indifference, that's the worst reaction to get, you want hate or excitement but there was no real reaction to him becoming king except confusion. Daenerys turning evil and dying was met with more hate, which isn't a bad thing, its a reaction at least but her death would have had made more of an impact if her and Jon had more time to build a love story, he should've got her pregnant, with her then getting paranoid, the audience would then believe him being conflicted because he was born a bastard and now he feels he can't just leave Daenerys, he needs to marry her and stay with her for the baby, even if shes evil or mad. She gives birth, then he should've then put a pillow over her head and killed her the same way she did with Drogo, everyone else believes that she died in childbirth and Jon tells no one what happened, he then exiles himself north of the wall and gives up the throne, that makes his son the king with Bran as hand of the king, who is ruling. So much simpler and you get the same sort of result with a much better audience reaction.
Thank you for your observations and insights. I once thought that some of the show might bear a resemblance to the book stories. I now realize my error and the showrunners' arrogance regarding the written material.
This doesn't reflect what the books are going to do, they changed it to show off the actors. They did it for "These Performances and These Faces". What they openly said in the DVD commentaries since Season 5: "We are changing the story to show off these actors making non-verbal emotive faces". Steve Attewell of Race for the Iron Throne agrees. Does Westeros.org agree with this assessment?
I think the show reflects to some degree George's plans, but very loosely and with vastly different contexts. Including, yeah, George doesn't have to worry about actors and their pretty faces.
So happy to see you talking about GoT again Elio!! Welcome back!! As much as I've enjoyed Linda solo-savaging (mostly) everything since you stopped, I really appreciated your input in the episode reviews and everything else related to the show. Any chance of the two of you doing a 'looking back' video on what disappointed you overall with GoT which you alluded to in the Successors video about two years ago? It might be too much to ask but I'd really enjoy it.
I’ve always hated the idea of Daenerys going mad, I was really hoping that wouldn’t be the route George takes but I guess I’ll just have to hope for a more satisfying take on it in the books.
I think Dany might go more ruthless and violent in the books, like the Aegon the conqueror was for ex, but totally insane and mad like the last eps in the show? I think not
The idea of Mirri Maz Duur's curse on Daenerys being undone has always been interesting to me. "The sun rising in the west and setting in the east" very well could refer to Quentyn Martell's quest from Dorne to Meereen. "The seas go dry" is probably the murkiest bit to me, but there's that interesting bit about the Dothraki being fearful of the ghost grass of Asshai and that it would one day overtake the world. Perhaps the "sea" that dries up would be the Great Grass Sea being devoured in this way. It could also be more symbolic in that Dany rallies the Dothraki to her cause and brings them to Westeros, effectively "draining" the Sea of its people. Lastly, "the mountains blow like leaves in the wind" strikes me as imagery of a volcanic eruption and its clouds of ash. Perhaps this has something to do with the island of Dragonstone and Dragonmont likely being a dormant volcano. So much seems to center around this island, which is an iconic symbol of the Targaryen family. Perhaps (f)Aegon repeats the tragedy of trying to wake dragons from stone and brings about an eruption. These sorts of things happening might be some harbinger to an eventually pregnancy for Daenerys. I guess we'll have to wait and see!
"The sea goes dry" can also refer to the fact that Daenerys notices that the grass is brown because of drought, and the mountains blowing like leaves could possibly refer to the pyramid ruined in Meereen that collapsed when the dragons went loose. I believe we've a video talking about prophecies, specifically, that goes into that a bit more.
I've always thought that Egg would knight Dunk in a small room somewhere moments before he takes his oath as a Kingsguard. Kind of a last moment of mischief between them before they really accept their roles in history. Also I think Cersei's trial by the Faith will take place with Robert Strong as her champion and the Faith delays, putting out a missive for a warrior, the Gravedigger is sent and doesnt realize who he is fighting until he arrives in KL.
“The Kingdom of the North” would comprise of the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands. The Iron Islands are still technically independent I guess? Dany gave them independence. Dorne would definitely leave again. So Bran gets to rule over the Crownlands, the Stormlands, the Reach, and the Westerlands.
@@SpiralSine6 I mean, we saw Bran's election. The Vale, Dorne, the Iron Islands, and the Riverlands voted for him and are all part of the Six Kingdoms. Only the North seceded. The Iron Islands aren't independent. I guess Yara kinda forgot about Dany's promise, but in any event there's no reason why Bran should honor promises made by Dany.
Tv Davos hasn’t mentioned other sons: he DID mention his wife in season two, but it has been a point of criticism that the tv show forgot entirely about her after that
Possible candidate may be Edric Storm, as Robert's acknowledged natural born son? In hindsight, Robert's reign wasn't nearly the disaster as what followed, maybe? Other than that, I agree heartily with you on all your points.
1:31:40 - Bran's story could end up having to do with the Iron Throne though. He is learning from Bloodraven who was, after all, a big enemy of the Blackfyres and Bittersteel. If Aegon Blackfyre sits the throne with the golden company at his side, Bloodraven might feel the need to intervene to stop that and Bran could be involved in that. Plus, Bran ending up on the Iron Throne makes a certain amount of sense with him being Bloodraven 2.0 since Bloodraven did essentially rule the kingdoms for quite a while. I'm not saying it WILL happen that way, but I could see that being a possibility.
The dissolution of the 7 kingdoms would seem very odd to me though, mostly because that seems to be very supportive of the idea of disunity and nationalism and I find it a bit hard that George would have an ending like that. Though anything's possible, of course. Maybe that's some of the bitter part of the bittersweet ending.
I like the idea of it ending with no Iron Throne, no single kingdom. Kind of a mirror of Europe which was once a hegemonic empire, but became (and remains) a fractured group of warring nations bound together only by history and faith.
I don't think everyone's going to all be in one place to fight together for the long night. Everyone's going to be split up and when winter comes shits going to hit the fan and be more hopeless then ever. I always took jon getting killed at the end of adod as reinforcing the futility of trying to get everyone to work together. Plus once Euron becomes involved with dark magic . I feel like once the long night comes many viewpoints will just be cut for a good chunk of ados so we wont know if certain characters survived or not. Heavy brutal winter will sweep the land and that's how grrm will narrow the story down a bit. No way are they going to be as prepared for the long night as they were in the show.
I wonder if Aegon would make a marriage offer to Dany in order to restore the Targaryen dynasty. Seems like he'd have everything to gain from that, but I'm not sure Dany would be content with that.
It's a blog piece at the Scientific American: blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/?redirect=1
And as to how it applies to season 6, I was referring to how what Cersei did at the end of that season had no negative social ramifications because society basically disappeared from the equation in the following seasons.
Theon is a foil for Jon, showing what kind of terrible path Jon could have gone if he had chosen differently (envious of the Starks, seeking to take Winterfell). Now I'm wondering if Asha will be a foil for Dany, and rule the Iron Islands successfully while Dany dies.
I believe King Bran being elected by a Great Council might be not because he's so great and everybody loves him, but because it's the least shitty option out of all presented at that time and it's a compromise for everyone. Other claimants might have some parties very triggered, but while no one wants Bran as king, no one hates that idea as much as the idea of other candidatea being elected.
54:40 - The image I'm getting now in my head is one of all the smallfolk of King's Landing yelling "Aegon! Aegon! Aegon!" with Aegon riding into King's Landing as Dany sits atop her dragon after helping to save them before she snaps.
I found it a very interesting thing. The only thing I'm unsure about is whether the shift was not so much because of Hollywood screenwriter mindsets, but simply because characters acting in a social void is simply more straightforward and concise when for some reason the showrunners decided that they only needed 13 more episodes. Proper handling of the impact in Westeros of the massacre at the Great Sept of Baelor should have complicated the story in some ways, so they simply didn't bother with it. There is, I'm told, a lot of this corner-cutting, and it's no surprise that the world became hollower as they raced to an end that the showrunners were determined to reach sooner rather than later.
So, the announcement of that was May 2018, and filming wrapped July 2018. The writing was all done. But I admit, the less generous part of me wonders how long before that announcement did Disney begin to make their interest known... If they started making overtures in 2014 or 2015, it might explain a lot. Alternatively, there are things behind the scenes that we weren't aware of but which Benioff and Weiss are taking the fall for -- for example, if Dinklage said he was not going to do more than 8, end of story, they've kept that under wraps and just said it was their decision. Or HBO was willing to do more seasons, but with more restrictive budgets than they'll admit. Or... We'll see. I suspect in the days, weeks, and months to come, at some point there'll be some entertainment journalists digging into how and why things fell out as they did.
@@WesterosTV Good points. I do know that HBO was pretty emphatic about blank checks for as many seasons as they needed, so I think we can rule that out, but then again who knows. I am very curious to see how things shake out.
Great to have both of you! Really enjoy your interaction. Q: What do you think about the "Starbucks" cup & the water bottles being left on the sets of a couple of the episodes? Is it just an overworked crew? Apathy? I don't watch a lot of television - does this kind of thing happen a lot?
I think Cersei meets her end at King's Landing. Fleeing to Casterly Rock would mean fleeing across a Riverlands in revolt again after whatever goes down at Riverrun, never mind whatever the Golden Company and possible Westerosi allies are bringing to bear.
Not at all, but Renly was exactly the sort of person to transgress (in his case, for the sake of novelty). The Rainbow Guard was a new order with rules being made up on the fly, and by admitting Brienne Renly made the decision that knighthood didn't matter (it's actually rather interesting, if you think about it, that Brienne did not ask for knighthood as her boon from Renly -- she too believes it's something only men can have!) The Kingsguard is ... well, mostly different, the sordid history of Sandor Clegane wearing the white cloak aside. But it really all depends on who is sitting the Iron Throne at the end -- if anyone -- and how they view things.
it's not that easy to listen to peoples' opinions on how the story goes for almost 2 hours. it often gets very biased and phoney. you made it easy though. I would love to meet you over a cup of tea and speak about asoiaf for hours ;-) I don't think you mentioned it, I might have missed it though. Do you think Jon could end up with Val at the end? I fell in love with Val VERY fast when George introduced her and I think she might be a reason why Jon could have a happy ending (seriously no pun intended -.-). Oh, and to Rickon - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story
Welcome back elio. U nevr shud have left the show reviews. I love your insight and opinion. The books r the books and the show is the show. I dont think we have been spoiled by the show much at all. I tell show watchers especially those who didnt like season 8 if u love this story and these characters read the books. Its evrything you love about the show and so so much more. its a diff experience altogether
Am i the only one who's suspicious that they delayed a lot of Others lore for the prequel show? If so then i hope the books still have it, the build up to the Others was a big part of the series tbh
I was going to ask what you guys think about brienne’s path being so similar to ser Duncan the tall’s. In the sense that she is basically a hedge knight serving various lords and eventually becomes lord commander of the kingsguard. Is there some deeper correlation between brienne and Dunk? Perhaps being related considering she is so tall and they have many similarities?
Come on, Elio! You brought up the time-travelling fetus but not the Exodus Theory? :D I know it looks like the show disproves it, but it still makes a lot more sense to me than what we've seen sketched out this season. Replace King's Landing with Braavos as the final target that breaks Dany's moral compass, and Tyrion and Jon would have better reasons to betray her (The Sailor's Wife/Tysha for Tyrion and Arya + a moral obligation for Tycho's loan for Jon), while Dany herself would have a much better reason not to burn down the Sealord's Palace outright (her childhood memories in the house with the red door). "King" Bran also works in a fashion if the humans flee east and the Children are left to inherit Westeros once again.
Linda, you seem to be taking it as a given that the Children created the Others in the novels' history as well as the show's. Is there something I'm forgetting from books that would indicate that?
It's a long-held theory of ours that relates to trying to make sense of the nature and purpose of the Others. George long ago indicated they aren't some "dark lord", and that they don't even have a "culture" as we would understand it. To us, this suggests they are created (and are now self-perpetuating). Then if you wonder who could have made them and why, there's kind of just one answer we think. But it's absolutely true that this is speculation on our parts.
Brienne beeing knighted by Ser Barristan Selmi The Hound VS The Mountain on a trial by combat Cersei, after the death of Tommen and Myrcel, blows up King's Landing with wildfire, fleeing to the west, during the attack of Aegon from the south, and the Mud Gate, and a fleet Jaime joins Cersi at CastarlyRoc, after Riverrun, and kills her
I think you need to look at the text little more carefully. There are some hints in The Hedge knight that clearly points to that Dunk is not honest about that.
I assume that we will see Skagos and Osha and Rickon in Winds. I dont think GRRM would write about what happenes in Skagos if Rickon will be killed off.
I always assumed that Bran would never leave the tree north of the wall either. Just logistics wise, how on earth would he be carried all the way back to the wall after they spent the so long first getting to the tree. In the show, he and Meera makes it back to the wall in like one episode but I don't think George would make it that simple. Maybe he uses magic to get back to the wall somehow?
I was referring to Chip and Dale, the chipmunks in the Disney cartoons. :) Their name was, of course, a play on Chippendale... Thomas Chippendale, the famous American cabinet and furniture maker.
Not quite. I was avoiding bad television. I can't really avoid spoilers, running the forum and social media as I do, and it's never been about the "destination" for me anyways, but the journey. I'm more confident than ever that George's take on that journey in incomparably better than what the show managed.
Bronn was so useless this season. It was honestly the cheesiest scene I’ve ever seen when he enters the room that Jaime and Tyrion are in with a crossbow. It reminded me of a mobster movie with the villainous mobster walking in with a Tommy gun with the fake Chicago accent saying “meh see, gimme all your money see. I believe you but my tommy gun don’t. Meh see”.
the most disappointing thing about the last few seasons was the lack of Elio in your review videos. why, Elio, why would you abandon your wife, what about "in good times and in BAD"???
In the show "liberating" the Summer Islanders and the rest of the world means killing them all like she did King's Landing. So it doesn't matter what the Summer Islanders want. Dany would kill them anyway.
I really hope that in the books, by the end, there isn’t a King’s Guard for Brienne to be a part of. I was very relieved that they were true enough to the spirit of the books to actually hint at some kind of limited progress beyond the feudal-monarchic status quo, but it seemed like such lame pandering to say “Oh but there’s still going to be a king, and guess who it is!” I am fine with the progress being far short of ideal- history happens in phases and you don’t tend to go straight from monarchy to democracy, from feudalism to socialism, etc.. But with as little progress as “A council of lords and ladies will pick the monarch,” it did feel like... Why do they feel compelled to pick a king? Why would that entire council be happy to pick some random king from somewhere else? Especially if the North (the homeland of the new king) was going to demand independence... It would’ve been more satisfying AND made a lot more sense to me if they’d just decided that the council would rule. At least abolishing the monarchy would feel like really significant progress (although abolishing feudalism would’ve felt better and I kind of hope that’s where GRRM leaves it in the end).
I think you guys are underplaying Sansa a lot. She'll end up with partial claims in the Vale, the Riverlands and the North by the end. Her current husband may end up being the last surviving Lannister. And she has the obvious real world analog of Elizabeth 1 (if the 7 separate Kingdoms dissolve into one United Kingdom by the end).
Such a disappointment once the greatest show ever made and it's so bad now them dudes are the ultimate trolls it feels like they just wanted to piss everyone off
@10:20 - This is the best articulation I've heard of an essential point: "even if the fourth leg is not what makes the chair, if you take out half of the fourth leg, the chair is still going to tip over".
Elio nice to see you again.
Thank you both for taking time to talk about the endgame
Thank you!
Westeros you’re welcome look forward to many more videos
I love Linda so much. She voices every frustration I have in such an eloquent and hilarious manner.
I love you too, Elio! You're the voice of calmness we all need.
As much as I enjoy Linda or Elio on their own, this channel really shines when you two bounce ideas off one another.
My gut feeling for Bran being King coming from Martin is that I just can't see D&D choosing Bran of their own volition. They consistently didn't care about the character, giving hokey versions of his storylines, leaving him off for seasons at a time. I have a hard time believing if they were changing Martin's pick, they would pick Bran and not a Lannister (or Bronn!).
On the other foot, he was our first POV character after the prologue, the direwolf scene of which was Martin's first idea. I could believe the tiniest seed of this idea was the journey from a child to a king. I do think it will be a lot more complicated of a journey and how it will be reached will not be Tyrion saying Bran tells the best stories, although I do think Egg elected by a Great Council may be set-up for Bran. The age thing will DEFINITELY have be addressed although going although with Elio's Bran/Leto II comparison, he too was a child with supernatural means to get wisdom beyond his years.
I know Elio's idea for a dream of spring has always been that Bran the Greenseer will see the future from within the tree, but it should be noted that Eddard's "dream of spring" recounted in ASoS is to raise new lords on the Gift land and overall to think for the future beyond pure survival like you do in the winter. Bran is King for the age of rebuilding, of reflection, of renewal, even if he has lost himself.
Great to see you both again! Thanks for everything you did for us while Elio gracefully exited. Really appreciate both of your work, and it's great to see you both onscreen. Can't tell you how much I appreciate and enjoy all of your content!
Thank you!
Oh...you are back. Awesome! Honestly, the last 4 years I have been anticipating you more than actual show.
Thank you!
Same!!! After every episode I’m like “I must find out what Linda think of this 🙄🙄🙄”
If hbno would have had the sense to utilize you guys like George has, they would have not been a bloody joke.
I'd bend the knee to that
You know, they had a very hard task and I think part of the reason they curtailed the final seasons was because of how they had burned themselves out doing too much of the work in earlier seasons. I don't think any amount of outside help would have led them to want to rush things at the end.
The King and Queen of the North x
@@WesterosTV I think you two would have been great handlers of D&D. I mean if George who is genius uses you from time to time. Why wouldn't D&D use someone like the two of you?
So glad to have you both here talking ASOIAF again. We need you guys more than ever after this last season. Great video
Thanks!
Eliojen returned from beyond the camera wall
The Dany thing wasn't properly set out in the show, but I see Dany turning dark in the books.
It's great to have a new video from you guys as my birthday present!! Long time fan of your work!
Much appreciated!
Happy birthday 🎈🎁🎉🎊🎂
@@YourGraceMyLady Thank you!
Hi Elio! Good to see you. I stopped watching when you did but kept up with Linda’s reviews; thank you for keeping us posted Linda!
Thanks, Lambert!
Guys... you must do a video on Aerea Targaryen. Please! Theorizing on where she went and what happened would be fascinating. That section of Fire&Blood gave me chills
All those people who claimed to be the "cool fans" of the books on the youtube treated Elio and Linda as snobish book readers for critizing the adaptation, when it started deviating from the books. They all have to swallow a bittershit ending of the show now. HAHAHAHAHAH. At least Elio and Linda already expect it.
I expected some deviations from the books. It is to be expected. But once they got past the source material, I didn't expect D&D to be such outright horrible writers. Seriously, some of the laziest writing that I can recall, offhand. I started to feel real dread for the series with all of the Dorne trainwreck and the constant teleportation. And then it got even worse. Sad ending to what could have been a truly epic series. But least we still have the books!
The book adaptation had nothing to do with the ending.
So your argument is useless, it was D&D's original work that ruined the series.
Nobody says first four seasons were bad except some snobby book readers.
@@arhamsaa the snobby book readers who were right all along lmao
Love Linda's snark. "Davos is on the small council because he's seen a boat." 🤣🤣🤣
I love just watching you talk about the books and the show.
I always thought the series would end with the battle with the white walkers but unfortunatly D&D started with it.. It just seems strange after the slogan 'Winter is Comming'.. The "winter" threat was defeated to easily and ended way to soon!
Thanks! And agreed, it does seem strange in a sense. I think probably George's notion is going to be more of a simultaneous thing... or we'll have a kind of conflict resolution in the South, followed by the resolution of the existential threat of the Others, and after that an aftermath that returns the story to the human scale and the human tragedy and "the heart in conflict with itself".
This is the first video I’ve ever seen that doesn’t have any dislikes 👍🏽
Ooh nice really happy that you decided to do this video and also did it so quickly!
Glad you like it!
Fantastic to see you back, Elio ! Your presence has been sorely missed. I hope we see some more content from the both of you, because your analysis and insight are second to none. Wish you both the best. Cheers.
Thanks!
Bran being King was met with such indifference, that's the worst reaction to get, you want hate or excitement but there was no real reaction to him becoming king except confusion. Daenerys turning evil and dying was met with more hate, which isn't a bad thing, its a reaction at least but her death would have had made more of an impact if her and Jon had more time to build a love story, he should've got her pregnant, with her then getting paranoid, the audience would then believe him being conflicted because he was born a bastard and now he feels he can't just leave Daenerys, he needs to marry her and stay with her for the baby, even if shes evil or mad. She gives birth, then he should've then put a pillow over her head and killed her the same way she did with Drogo, everyone else believes that she died in childbirth and Jon tells no one what happened, he then exiles himself north of the wall and gives up the throne, that makes his son the king with Bran as hand of the king, who is ruling. So much simpler and you get the same sort of result with a much better audience reaction.
Soo glad to see Elio back! Love your indepth analysis
I kinda assumed the Hound would be in the 7 vs 7 fight. If so, it'd be natural for the Mountain to be on the opposite side.
Thank you for your observations and insights. I once thought that some of the show might bear a resemblance to the book stories. I now realize my error and the showrunners' arrogance regarding the written material.
Thank you for the intelligent talks. I enjoyed this journey with you two, can't wait for Winds of Winter.
Our pleasure!
Elio!!! The band is back together!
This doesn't reflect what the books are going to do, they changed it to show off the actors. They did it for "These Performances and These Faces". What they openly said in the DVD commentaries since Season 5: "We are changing the story to show off these actors making non-verbal emotive faces". Steve Attewell of Race for the Iron Throne agrees. Does Westeros.org agree with this assessment?
I agree with this assessment.
I think the show reflects to some degree George's plans, but very loosely and with vastly different contexts. Including, yeah, George doesn't have to worry about actors and their pretty faces.
So happy to see you talking about GoT again Elio!! Welcome back!!
As much as I've enjoyed Linda solo-savaging (mostly) everything since you stopped, I really appreciated your input in the episode reviews and everything else related to the show. Any chance of the two of you doing a 'looking back' video on what disappointed you overall with GoT which you alluded to in the Successors video about two years ago? It might be too much to ask but I'd really enjoy it.
Thanks for the welcome, Omoncon. :) That's an interesting subject for a video.
I just saw this video, and even before starting to watch, this made my day! Farewell stupid TV show, we are back "alone" again!!
Glad you're pleased!
I’ve always hated the idea of Daenerys going mad, I was really hoping that wouldn’t be the route George takes but I guess I’ll just have to hope for a more satisfying take on it in the books.
I think Dany might go more ruthless and violent in the books, like the Aegon the conqueror was for ex, but totally insane and mad like the last eps in the show? I think not
I refuse to think Dany goes evil. I think her end will be tragic not a good riddance to her affair.
The idea of Mirri Maz Duur's curse on Daenerys being undone has always been interesting to me. "The sun rising in the west and setting in the east" very well could refer to Quentyn Martell's quest from Dorne to Meereen. "The seas go dry" is probably the murkiest bit to me, but there's that interesting bit about the Dothraki being fearful of the ghost grass of Asshai and that it would one day overtake the world. Perhaps the "sea" that dries up would be the Great Grass Sea being devoured in this way. It could also be more symbolic in that Dany rallies the Dothraki to her cause and brings them to Westeros, effectively "draining" the Sea of its people. Lastly, "the mountains blow like leaves in the wind" strikes me as imagery of a volcanic eruption and its clouds of ash. Perhaps this has something to do with the island of Dragonstone and Dragonmont likely being a dormant volcano. So much seems to center around this island, which is an iconic symbol of the Targaryen family. Perhaps (f)Aegon repeats the tragedy of trying to wake dragons from stone and brings about an eruption. These sorts of things happening might be some harbinger to an eventually pregnancy for Daenerys. I guess we'll have to wait and see!
"The sea goes dry" can also refer to the fact that Daenerys notices that the grass is brown because of drought, and the mountains blowing like leaves could possibly refer to the pyramid ruined in Meereen that collapsed when the dragons went loose. I believe we've a video talking about prophecies, specifically, that goes into that a bit more.
Good to see you again Elio!
Thanks!
Thanks for doing this video. It's good to see knowledgable fans delve into the endgame plotlines.
I've always thought that Egg would knight Dunk in a small room somewhere moments before he takes his oath as a Kingsguard. Kind of a last moment of mischief between them before they really accept their roles in history.
Also I think Cersei's trial by the Faith will take place with Robert Strong as her champion and the Faith delays, putting out a missive for a warrior, the Gravedigger is sent and doesnt realize who he is fighting until he arrives in KL.
I would think the Riverlands and Vale would join the North rather than stick with the Six Kingdoms.
“The Kingdom of the North” would comprise of the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands.
The Iron Islands are still technically independent I guess? Dany gave them independence.
Dorne would definitely leave again.
So Bran gets to rule over the Crownlands, the Stormlands, the Reach, and the Westerlands.
@@SpiralSine6 I mean, we saw Bran's election. The Vale, Dorne, the Iron Islands, and the Riverlands voted for him and are all part of the Six Kingdoms. Only the North seceded. The Iron Islands aren't independent. I guess Yara kinda forgot about Dany's promise, but in any event there's no reason why Bran should honor promises made by Dany.
I'm glad to see you two together! 😊
Thank you!
Tv Davos hasn’t mentioned other sons: he DID mention his wife in season two, but it has been a point of criticism that the tv show forgot entirely about her after that
Two books are not enough to wrap up the story. Dany and Jon have met each other yet for god sake. George will need another 5 books to finish it.
Possible candidate may be Edric Storm, as Robert's acknowledged natural born son? In hindsight, Robert's reign wasn't nearly the disaster as what followed, maybe? Other than that, I agree heartily with you on all your points.
What do you both have to say about “Dany kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet”? The mentality behind that statement? The audacity.
More like the stupidity behind that statement. God, Benioff is such a moron!
1:31:40 - Bran's story could end up having to do with the Iron Throne though. He is learning from Bloodraven who was, after all, a big enemy of the Blackfyres and Bittersteel. If Aegon Blackfyre sits the throne with the golden company at his side, Bloodraven might feel the need to intervene to stop that and Bran could be involved in that. Plus, Bran ending up on the Iron Throne makes a certain amount of sense with him being Bloodraven 2.0 since Bloodraven did essentially rule the kingdoms for quite a while. I'm not saying it WILL happen that way, but I could see that being a possibility.
The dissolution of the 7 kingdoms would seem very odd to me though, mostly because that seems to be very supportive of the idea of disunity and nationalism and I find it a bit hard that George would have an ending like that. Though anything's possible, of course. Maybe that's some of the bitter part of the bittersweet ending.
I like the idea of it ending with no Iron Throne, no single kingdom. Kind of a mirror of Europe which was once a hegemonic empire, but became (and remains) a fractured group of warring nations bound together only by history and faith.
I don't think everyone's going to all be in one place to fight together for the long night. Everyone's going to be split up and when winter comes shits going to hit the fan and be more hopeless then ever. I always took jon getting killed at the end of adod as reinforcing the futility of trying to get everyone to work together. Plus once Euron becomes involved with dark magic . I feel like once the long night comes many viewpoints will just be cut for a good chunk of ados so we wont know if certain characters survived or not. Heavy brutal winter will sweep the land and that's how grrm will narrow the story down a bit. No way are they going to be as prepared for the long night as they were in the show.
That's very true. It's going to be much more brutal.
Linda, the blouse fits you perfectly
Would really like to see an Aegon young griff video from you two. Propaganda war between him and dany seems likely.
I wonder if Aegon would make a marriage offer to Dany in order to restore the Targaryen dynasty. Seems like he'd have everything to gain from that, but I'm not sure Dany would be content with that.
@11:00 what sociology paper? And what about it in regard to season six? Please elaborate
It's a blog piece at the Scientific American: blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/?redirect=1
And as to how it applies to season 6, I was referring to how what Cersei did at the end of that season had no negative social ramifications because society basically disappeared from the equation in the following seasons.
Theon is a foil for Jon, showing what kind of terrible path Jon could have gone if he had chosen differently (envious of the Starks, seeking to take Winterfell). Now I'm wondering if Asha will be a foil for Dany, and rule the Iron Islands successfully while Dany dies.
I believe King Bran being elected by a Great Council might be not because he's so great and everybody loves him, but because it's the least shitty option out of all presented at that time and it's a compromise for everyone. Other claimants might have some parties very triggered, but while no one wants Bran as king, no one hates that idea as much as the idea of other candidatea being elected.
Bran ain't even Bran anymore.
Thanks for the video! Nice discussion points, always appreciate your perspective. And hello to Elio on screen again 🤪
Thanks!
Question has GRRM confirmed that Brienne is a descendant of Dunk?
Love the video guys
He has not. However, years ago he did say a descendant of Dunk appeared in the series. Five books in, Brienne really seems like the only possibility.
54:40 - The image I'm getting now in my head is one of all the smallfolk of King's Landing yelling "Aegon! Aegon! Aegon!" with Aegon riding into King's Landing as Dany sits atop her dragon after helping to save them before she snaps.
The Scientific American article is the definitive word on the show in my mind.
I found it a very interesting thing. The only thing I'm unsure about is whether the shift was not so much because of Hollywood screenwriter mindsets, but simply because characters acting in a social void is simply more straightforward and concise when for some reason the showrunners decided that they only needed 13 more episodes. Proper handling of the impact in Westeros of the massacre at the Great Sept of Baelor should have complicated the story in some ways, so they simply didn't bother with it. There is, I'm told, a lot of this corner-cutting, and it's no surprise that the world became hollower as they raced to an end that the showrunners were determined to reach sooner rather than later.
@@WesterosTV All about the rush to star wars I guess?
@@noshow They made these sorts of decision long before they were attached to Star Wars.
So, the announcement of that was May 2018, and filming wrapped July 2018. The writing was all done. But I admit, the less generous part of me wonders how long before that announcement did Disney begin to make their interest known... If they started making overtures in 2014 or 2015, it might explain a lot. Alternatively, there are things behind the scenes that we weren't aware of but which Benioff and Weiss are taking the fall for -- for example, if Dinklage said he was not going to do more than 8, end of story, they've kept that under wraps and just said it was their decision. Or HBO was willing to do more seasons, but with more restrictive budgets than they'll admit. Or... We'll see. I suspect in the days, weeks, and months to come, at some point there'll be some entertainment journalists digging into how and why things fell out as they did.
@@WesterosTV Good points. I do know that HBO was pretty emphatic about blank checks for as many seasons as they needed, so I think we can rule that out, but then again who knows. I am very curious to see how things shake out.
Great to have both of you! Really enjoy your interaction. Q: What do you think about the "Starbucks" cup & the water bottles being left on the sets of a couple of the episodes? Is it just an overworked crew? Apathy? I don't watch a lot of television - does this kind of thing happen a lot?
Hello, where can I found Elio article about Jaime/Jon characters?
It was actually one Linda and I worked on together, I see -- been awhile! www.tor.com/2011/07/07/parallel-lives-in-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/
@@WesterosTV Thank u :)
Amazing! I loved it!
I think Cersei meets her end at King's Landing. Fleeing to Casterly Rock would mean fleeing across a Riverlands in revolt again after whatever goes down at Riverrun, never mind whatever the Golden Company and possible Westerosi allies are bringing to bear.
No way she stays at Kings Landing! Aegon VI will come and save the realm after liberating Storms End!!!!
Heyyyyy!!!! So happy to see you both 👏🏽
Thanks!
Are you guys forgetting the fact that Briene was already on Renly's rainbow guard?
Not at all, but Renly was exactly the sort of person to transgress (in his case, for the sake of novelty). The Rainbow Guard was a new order with rules being made up on the fly, and by admitting Brienne Renly made the decision that knighthood didn't matter (it's actually rather interesting, if you think about it, that Brienne did not ask for knighthood as her boon from Renly -- she too believes it's something only men can have!) The Kingsguard is ... well, mostly different, the sordid history of Sandor Clegane wearing the white cloak aside. But it really all depends on who is sitting the Iron Throne at the end -- if anyone -- and how they view things.
it's not that easy to listen to peoples' opinions on how the story goes for almost 2 hours. it often gets very biased and phoney. you made it easy though. I would love to meet you over a cup of tea and speak about asoiaf for hours ;-)
I don't think you mentioned it, I might have missed it though. Do you think Jon could end up with Val at the end? I fell in love with Val VERY fast when George introduced her and I think she might be a reason why Jon could have a happy ending (seriously no pun intended -.-).
Oh, and to Rickon - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story
I'm not sure Val will be making it to the end, but we'll see! She certainly is presented with a great deal of charisma and character.
Elio is back 😍😍😍😍😍😍
Welcome back elio. U nevr shud have left the show reviews. I love your insight and opinion. The books r the books and the show is the show. I dont think we have been spoiled by the show much at all. I tell show watchers especially those who didnt like season 8 if u love this story and these characters read the books. Its evrything you love about the show and so so much more. its a diff experience altogether
Thanks!
Am i the only one who's suspicious that they delayed a lot of Others lore for the prequel show? If so then i hope the books still have it, the build up to the Others was a big part of the series tbh
I doubt it since D&D are not involved with the prequels
I was going to ask what you guys think about brienne’s path being so similar to ser Duncan the tall’s. In the sense that she is basically a hedge knight serving various lords and eventually becomes lord commander of the kingsguard. Is there some deeper correlation between brienne and Dunk? Perhaps being related considering she is so tall and they have many similarities?
She is a descendant of Dunk's.
Come on, Elio! You brought up the time-travelling fetus but not the Exodus Theory? :D
I know it looks like the show disproves it, but it still makes a lot more sense to me than what we've seen sketched out this season. Replace King's Landing with Braavos as the final target that breaks Dany's moral compass, and Tyrion and Jon would have better reasons to betray her (The Sailor's Wife/Tysha for Tyrion and Arya + a moral obligation for Tycho's loan for Jon), while Dany herself would have a much better reason not to burn down the Sealord's Palace outright (her childhood memories in the house with the red door).
"King" Bran also works in a fashion if the humans flee east and the Children are left to inherit Westeros once again.
Even less likely than the fetus, in our opinion. Sorry!
Linda, you seem to be taking it as a given that the Children created the Others in the novels' history as well as the show's. Is there something I'm forgetting from books that would indicate that?
It's a long-held theory of ours that relates to trying to make sense of the nature and purpose of the Others. George long ago indicated they aren't some "dark lord", and that they don't even have a "culture" as we would understand it. To us, this suggests they are created (and are now self-perpetuating). Then if you wonder who could have made them and why, there's kind of just one answer we think. But it's absolutely true that this is speculation on our parts.
But then again, a Great Other is mentioned, the wights wear ice armour and speak (in the books of course)
Brienne beeing knighted by Ser Barristan Selmi
The Hound VS The Mountain on a trial by combat
Cersei, after the death of Tommen and Myrcel, blows up King's Landing with wildfire, fleeing to the west, during the attack of Aegon from the south, and the Mud Gate, and a fleet
Jaime joins Cersi at CastarlyRoc, after Riverrun, and kills her
Nuclear take. Grrm will change some things
But Ser Arlan knighted Dunk as he was sick and dying.
I think you need to look at the text little more carefully. There are some hints in The Hedge knight that clearly points to that Dunk is not honest about that.
Adding more episodes to this train wreck wouldn’t have mattered. D & D not only didn’t get the story they didn’t care.
I assume that we will see Skagos and Osha and Rickon in Winds. I dont think GRRM would write about what happenes in Skagos if Rickon will be killed off.
I always assumed that Bran would never leave the tree north of the wall either. Just logistics wise, how on earth would he be carried all the way back to the wall after they spent the so long first getting to the tree. In the show, he and Meera makes it back to the wall in like one episode but I don't think George would make it that simple. Maybe he uses magic to get back to the wall somehow?
Is there a possibility George splits Winds Of Winter or A Dream Of Spring ? Like he did for A Feast for Crows. Or definitely not ^^.
Anything is possible. I know he's not planning for it, but he's been wrong before.
guys I keep saying this you two area treasure for ice and fire love for you to sign my/your book... best game of throne channel period,,,
That's very kind!
Hello Linda and Elio 👋 Hope your both well?
We are! Thank you for asking!
13:00 *Ahem* Chipmunks perhaps? Chippendales are different creatures entirely ;)
I was referring to Chip and Dale, the chipmunks in the Disney cartoons. :) Their name was, of course, a play on Chippendale... Thomas Chippendale, the famous American cabinet and furniture maker.
@@WesterosTV Okay, I'll lift my mind from the gutter.
Yay. Eliot is back!
Amazing Discussion!!!
I thought Elio was avoiding the spoilers!
Not quite. I was avoiding bad television. I can't really avoid spoilers, running the forum and social media as I do, and it's never been about the "destination" for me anyways, but the journey. I'm more confident than ever that George's take on that journey in incomparably better than what the show managed.
@@WesterosTV That's fair enough! Really good to see you back, anyway.
I wonder if it will turn out that Theon already had bastard children, and Asha might be regent for them
No Littlefinger?!?
Great seeing you both again. I loved this video!
Elio is back! :)
mfw watching bran get elected king 48:34
Bronn was so useless this season. It was honestly the cheesiest scene I’ve ever seen when he enters the room that Jaime and Tyrion are in with a crossbow. It reminded me of a mobster movie with the villainous mobster walking in with a Tommy gun with the fake Chicago accent saying “meh see, gimme all your money see. I believe you but my tommy gun don’t. Meh see”.
Does Ellio not watch the TV series? X
Not since the end of the 5th season.
@@WesterosTV I wish I had the strength to do that.
Yahy! You two are better together :)
Nice jaspe. Bran the broke with Bronn as the master of coin.
Elio!!! Welcome back
Thank you!
Welcome back Elio
Elio is back!
Indeed!
It's Elio!
the most disappointing thing about the last few seasons was the lack of Elio in your review videos. why, Elio, why would you abandon your wife, what about "in good times and in BAD"???
He stopped watching the show so couldn't review it
In the show "liberating" the Summer Islanders and the rest of the world means killing them all like she did King's Landing. So it doesn't matter what the Summer Islanders want. Dany would kill them anyway.
I'm not an ewok! I'm a God damn jawa! 😂
I really hope that in the books, by the end, there isn’t a King’s Guard for Brienne to be a part of. I was very relieved that they were true enough to the spirit of the books to actually hint at some kind of limited progress beyond the feudal-monarchic status quo, but it seemed like such lame pandering to say “Oh but there’s still going to be a king, and guess who it is!” I am fine with the progress being far short of ideal- history happens in phases and you don’t tend to go straight from monarchy to democracy, from feudalism to socialism, etc.. But with as little progress as “A council of lords and ladies will pick the monarch,” it did feel like... Why do they feel compelled to pick a king? Why would that entire council be happy to pick some random king from somewhere else? Especially if the North (the homeland of the new king) was going to demand independence...
It would’ve been more satisfying AND made a lot more sense to me if they’d just decided that the council would rule. At least abolishing the monarchy would feel like really significant progress (although abolishing feudalism would’ve felt better and I kind of hope that’s where GRRM leaves it in the end).
I think you guys are underplaying Sansa a lot. She'll end up with partial claims in the Vale, the Riverlands and the North by the end. Her current husband may end up being the last surviving Lannister. And she has the obvious real world analog of Elizabeth 1 (if the 7 separate Kingdoms dissolve into one United Kingdom by the end).
Such a disappointment once the greatest show ever made and it's so bad now them dudes are the ultimate trolls it feels like they just wanted to piss everyone off
Character assassination
What about Hot Pie?