Exercise Scientist Is WRONG About Deadlifts
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- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
- Starting Strength Coach Grant Broggi reacts to a clip by @PeterAttiaMD and Dr. Stuart McGill @backfitpro9992 who say that deadlifting is not worth the risk of injury.
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strength makes everything easier no matter the age.
True, but you don't need as much strength as Ronnie had. :(
Lightweight baby!!!!!!!!! @@x-techgaming
"strength is never a weakness, and weakness is never a strength"
@@brianhopkins5251i agree but nit all strength directly correlates to a better life. Maybe you can deadlift 600lbs, but the road to get there is laden with injuries that make your quality of life lesser
Yeah sorry you’re just wrong. Everyone has a different body, and while your body might be able to handle heavy DL, mine can’t bc of the anatomy of my facet joints. Now I have chronic back pain, when I could have worked these muscles safely. You never know if you have good spine anatomy or not. Just bc you do, doesn’t mean we need to risk our quality of life
Visited an orthopedic surgeon on a consultation for torn meniscus in my knees April 2023, he quickly after examining me recommended surgery, he’s done thousands, recommended that I stop any squats because “squats are the absolute worst thing you could do for your knees no one should ever squat,” according to this doctor, who was in his early 60s, 300 pounds 6 feet tall had to sit for almost the entire examination, even when manipulating my knees was in a seated position. Examined me for 15 minutes, didn’t stand up other than walking into the room to sit down in his chair. I opted not to have surgery after consultation with another orthopedic surgeon, who totally approved of everything that I was doing. I’ve been squatting and dead lifting consistently since 2018, knee pain (and severe, chronic back pain) preceded lifting, I did modify squatting after the incident that initiated the doctor visits (an awkward knee twist exiting the squat rack) to
only box squats, knee pain is almost entirely gone.
That's interesting. I've had 2 meniscus repairs over the last few years, left and right knee. Both surgeries the orthopaedic drs and physio's said to strengthen my thighs up as much as I can. I said are squats and deadlifts OK? On these occasions both drs and physio said yes that's great, do squats and deadlifts.
I had a meniscus tear repaired when I was a teen in the 90s, and I always worried that squats would eventually be an issue. Well a couple of years ago for some reason, I started getting pain in that knee, and it puffed up a bit (wasn't really swollen). Didn't really hurt after a week or so, just stayed tight. I just continued to train consistently, and it eventually returned to normal after 5-6 months. I hit 405x5 on squats during that period as well. So, I think squats can definitely be done as long as things are trained appropriately as Grant mentions.
It's common for people in Healthcare to not be very health conscious themselves. My psychiatrist went to Harvard and he's obese. Plenty of nurses smoke and/or are overweight.
All too common to hear stories like this. Glad that you were your own best advocate and didn’t just take the bait
This is hilarious!!!! Goes to show you even doctors can be morons and hypocrites. Im in healthcare and the saying, a healed patient is a lost customer is completely accurate.
Im 53 and new lifter. I credit squats and deadlifts with relieving my back pain. I had lumbar arthritis and spinal stenosis that was aggravated by 35 years working construction. Squats and deads havee given me my life back. Plan to do them as long as I can
I’m also 53. I have lumbar arthritis and spinal stenosis. Also 3 herniated discs. Just getting back into squats and deadlifts. Hang tough brother.
Awesome bro.
38 yo construction worker. Squat every week. Deadlifting more now too
Thanks for doing a video on this. My head nearly exploded listening to McGill saying that.
Same!
Wasn't McGill talking about maxing out, NOT about sets of threes or fives.
@@genegodbold830 his reply sounded completely unrelated to general populations over 50. It's like he didn't hear the question and just went off on talking about elite powerlifters lifting 1000lbs. That was the soundbite and the headline of the video unfortunately.
Same. I got McGill's video on my algorithm, and it made me second-guess the hell out of him.
If your head is exploding because a scientist explains lifting for the general public on a channel geared towards the general public, you clearly have some kind of comprehension problem.
I hate the idea that people are judging a guy who's been in the trenches doing decades of peer-reviewed research on the spine, worked with pro athletes, written multiple books on the subject and already done many UA-cam videos on this topic, on one 5 minute section of an interview, on a channel that isn't specifically for lifters. He's trying to explain in basic terms for the general population that an individual with no prior experience and possibly decades of poor movement shouldn't walk into a gym expecting to deadlift 500lbs and max-out every session. Because all you see on social media is people using bad form and maxing out every session, and if that 50 year old untrained individual does that, they'll likely end up with a bad injury.
I saw that video. I'm 62 and can still Deadlift 500 and I'm looking to break my best of 515.
I will never eliminate Deadlifts. Stay Strong!! Semper Fi
Waaaoow ! Very inspiring,keep grinding!
YUT
Hell yeah
So awesome!
Same here. At age 64, I still try to best myself.
I saw the McGill video last week - I generally disagree. I'm 69 and only been deadlifting 4 years. I hit a PR of 425 last year and I am excited about going higher at some point, if I can. I'm not looking to reassess when I can do it safely. At this age, goals are a great thing for mental health and physical wellbeing.
I'm 62, only into my 5th week of SSBBT, and am at 300 but moving up fast. I admire your PR! Keep going!! But, also never forget, given the would-be rapid age-related loss of strength, even maintaining 425 means that your strength relative to that declining base is _increasing,_ so in effect, even maintaining 425 means every workout is a new PR! But regardless, KEEP GOING! I'm right on your heels!!
Please read one of his books or look at some of his other content that goes into this in greater detail, clearly you have some expertise with lifting/deadlifting. This was an explanation for the average person on a medical channel aimed at the general public. He wasn't even saying "don't deadlift," he was saying if you've never deadlifted before you should work on other things like mobility first, and you shouldn't just max out all the time.
425 at 69 is bonkers! Impressive.
@@jacksonr260, search UA-cam for "90 Year Old Deadlifts 405 for Reps"
I'm 26, just started lifting 4 months ago, I can bench 165 but I've been avoiding deadlifts because of a lot of the fear mongering.
Almost 70 and kicking ass like that... You're an inspiration man.
50 year old here. I'll say the same thing I said on the video in question. I quit deadlifting for several months last year due to reading stuff like this. At the end of that period, I had back, hip, and shoulder pain ... seemingly without any source. I decided to start deadlifting again this past Oct, and 3 weeks later felt like a million bucks. Set a 395 PR last week at a sub-180 body weight, and didn't die. Deadlifts 4 Life.
Great testimony. There’s a sub-culture coming out of the wood work to correct for this garbage were fed and I’m here for it. It’s one thing to live and let live, but people’s lives are actually being negatively impacted from fear of injury and it’s literally the complete opposite of the truth.
Legend
Deloading is gay@Doctordog127
interesting
Same here, I went onto hypertrophy training, got fat, struggled to lose it at 49
I'm really tired of all these "longevity" hucksters. I plan on deadlifting until the day I die.
After that YOU will be deadlifted 😂.
Neither of them are longevity hucksters.
It's a bit of a funny one. There's clearly a point in your life where you have to start considering injuries over hitting PRs. You absolutely should be doing the big compound lifts for as long as possible but if you are ageing then surely it's sensible to consider your form and ensure that your lifting is done in a way that prevents injury.
Just look up Mike Burch. He’s in his 70’s deadlifting more than 500lbs
@@bestwesterner who cares? Unless you do a proper analysis of the population of heavy deadlifters pointing out one case is irrelevant.
That being said deadlifts or more correctly hip hinges are a great exercise.
Past a certain age we lose 2-4% of our strength per year! That's an implosion. So, assume for discussion you're 60 years old and you deadlift 315 lbs for a 1x5 working set twice a week. And imagine for discussion you didn't even increase that weight, you simply maintained that weight for years. Given that your age related baseline strength _should_ be falling off a cliff, maintaining that weight actually means you are getting stronger relative to your age! In other words, even maintaining 315 lbs over the years means every workout is effectively a new PR.
Excellent way of putting it, sir/madam.
42 years old, 5’7”, 185 lbs here. Starting SS 6 months ago. I started DL’s at 185lbs x 5 and have advanced to 315x5. I only DL once a week now but am still making gains and always feel fresh and ready. It’s my favorite exercise as it’s just so alpha…and it makes everything else feel easier by comparison.
Good job! It's good to see people our age deadlifting, and it is surprising how many people don't deadlift. I have also found once a week to be effective at that level, while still working on squat and bench.
@@ScottyGMusic Aye. Definitely on board with squats twice a week. I lift on Tuesdays and Fridays and do squats both days. I save my deadlifts for my Friday workout so I can rest and recover on the weekend. Man, I'd seen deadlifts in random tv but didn't wrestle or play football in highschool, so I was never introduced to heavy bb strength training. I did grow up doing martial arts, so I was all about calisthenics. Wish I had learned about the barbell when I was younger, but better late than never. Stay on the grind, my friend!
I'm so pleased that you reviewed that video. I watched it on Saturday and yesterday when I done a deadlift at 80kg and I weigh 60kg and I'm a novice 55 Yr old female. All I could picture was micro tears in my back 😮
I feel better now you have put it in perspective 😊
Don't let that idiot nocebo you, sounds like you're doing great!
The point isn’t mute, it’s moot.
The point being moot...should be muted 😁
THANK YOU. This conversation needed this added nuance.
I'm an older lifter, coming 73. I had some trouble from time to time with straight bar deadlifts. Since going to a trap bar, I've tolerated deadlifting very well. It is not exactly the same movement, but close enough for this old man. There is a primal thrill making a heavy weight com off the floor. It happens that today was leg day. I did both squats and trap bar deadlifts, then came home and cleared out the snow from our long driveway and deck. Strength training is the closet thing there is to a fountain of youth.
I watch Dr. Attia regularly, and I saw the whole interview with Dr. McGill, widely known and respected as the "the back doc." And I cringed a little when I heard him say that. I'm almost 65 (signing up for Medicare this week), and I still deadlift. Granted, I train deadlift only every other week, and I don't go lower than 5 reps. On the off weeks, I do accessory lifts (band distracted deadlift, cable pull through, shank lever, RDL, box step up, etc.) and mobility work, mostly DNS hip movements. Though not the best tool for aesthetics, I deadlift for the axial stimulus to keep healthy bone density and hormone levels. Also, as Dr. Attia mentions, I do them as an audit for my rest, recovery, nutrition, and mobility protocols. I don't wear a belt, but I use straps on my working sets so that I can focus on my form and also because I ruptured a biceps tendon years ago and don't want to reinjure it. I haven't pulled a max single since I was 58, and I'm fine with that. If programmed intelligently, I see no reason to stop deadlifting in one's 60s or even 70s and 80s.
I love how he says anyone who sets a personal best has microfractures, whether it's 315 or 1000 Lol.
I mean, he has studied lifting and spinal injury for 40 years by working directly with cadavers and elite athletes. You'd think a guy who's spent his life staring at spine X-rays would know a thing or two. By the way, what distinctions do you have?
@@EpictheEpicestsolid argument.
Microfractures are very simply an adaptive response. Very much in the same way as one could say your muscles "microtear" in the gym when you're doing heavy lifting or high volume bodybuilding, as a precursor and trigger to growth and hypertrophy. What you're not reading or seeing is the further explanation Stu makes about how vertebrae (and bones in general) become stronger after lifting using those same microfractures as the trigger.
The analysis is quite general and a few things should have been looked into here. 1. Usually people who are built to deadlift, i.e. long arms, long legs, short torso, etc. seem to recover faster from deadlift workouts and have the ability to deadlift more frequently than others who are not built to deadlift. A lot of that has to do with the angle of torso angle and distance of the moment arm on the lower back with recovery. 2. A lot of injuries occur with overtraining and doing too much of high volume. I'm 45 years old and deadlifting frequently over 600lb probably once or twice a month and the beginning of last year I had a lot of hip issues which now have gone. Difference I did was adjust the training volume to a lot lower it considerably as opposed to keep ramping it up, but still make sure I deadlift once a week as recovery is now optimum.
It boils down to don’t ego lift listen to your body.
*especially* with lifts like squat and deadlift
My knee and back pain improved tremendously once I started squatting and deadlifting regularly. I’m in my late 40’s. Maybe I’ll shoot for a 1000lb pull in the next lifetime.
Deadlifts are the great boogeyman for non-lifters, just ahead of barbell back squats. It's because of misinformation and maybe lack of form education early in their lifting careers for the few or them who have ever done them. Sometimes this misinformation has credentials behind their names, which is unfortunate.
At some point, they will not go up if you don't try very hard, and I think there is a certain subset of people who are allergic to trying hard, and spend all of their cognitive ability rationalizing why doing what they do (and staying weak despite a long training history) instead of trying hard at something is actually better.
do you know who doctor Stuart McGill is? haha you have to be kidding
@absolutelysobeast Have you listened to the podcast? His problem with the squat and deadlift are completely informed by anecdote, and more still, anecdote of exclusively competitive powerlifters at the ends of their careers. The man can have a lot of expertise on spinal mechanics and still make bad generalizations based on the consequences of freak outliers' occupational hazards.
I would happily accept at face value that powerlifting is not great for your body over the long term, but I would completely push back on the generalization of training squats and deadlifts in a progressive manner therefore being bad as well. Show me some numbers, researcher.
I am an immunological researcher, and it is not exactly rare to find scientists with opinions arrived at unscientifically, even in fields closely related to their own. It's just how people work sometimes.
The point is people already are afraid of doing these things, and like to be told that they are right to not want to do them.
What passes for medicine nowadays is an absolute joke:
"Wear a mask"
"Don't squat and deadlift"
GTFO!
Don’t eat eggs or meat!!
I'm 46 and my mobility is a lot better when I'm deadlifting and squatting. If I go more than a couple weeks without deadlifting my aches and pains creep back. I was really disappointed to see that on Dr. Attia's channel.
Exactly. My knees will get tender cause I’m stressing the shit out of them, but they adapt and become more resilient. But when I stop lifting entirely, that’s when the pain starts to creep.
I’m 43 and I know just what you mean
You are arguing something he never said. He's talking about people who come to him who are already injured presumably from a long history of lifting.
Shocked to hear bro science dudes not understanding things.
Way too sensible a comment. You must hate America.
Exactly. Even in he clip he showed us, it sounds like mcgill is saying that deadlifting to often can lead to overuse injuries.
And who the fuck is the random fireman looking guy anyways?
"He's talking about people who come to him who are already injured presumably from a long history of lifting."
No, *you* don't actually know what the context of the discussion was about. Go watch the clip from Peter Attia's podcast - the clip is called "Do the benefits of deadlifts and squats outweigh the risk of injury? | Peter Attia and Stuart McGill" - the context is that Peter asked him if he *personally* should continue squatting and deadlifting, and just basically doing it at reasonable weights, not trying to "lift heavy" or set PBs. And the entire reason why this video exists is because Dr McGill basically just ignored what Peter was asking, and went into talking about how guys chasing PBs come in with back problems so that's why no one should deadlift.
Go watch the clip
(on a side note, why these channels don't always put the link in the description, I'll never understand - c'mon guys...)
@@tylerbruce5731 Someone in the comments assuming they know what they're talking about but are wrong
Someone else in the comments assuming that they're right
Shocker
I believe McGill is making the point that people who pursue deadlift or squat PRs for the rest of their lives take a risk that they will injure their hips or back. They should keep their ability to squat and hinge for the rest of their lives for functionality and quality of life though. This can be achieved by means other than training heavy PR bi-lateral barbell squats and deadlifts. If heavy barbell squats and deadlifts are not required for your sport or occupation then you have to evaluate if you need to do them. You should consider alternatives that get the results you want without the mileage these exercises may cause for you. Try trap bar deadlifts, single leg straight leg deadlifts, farmer’s walks, split squats, etc and see how you feel.
Its about mobility. And you dont need to lift "heavy" to have great mobility.
Id argue theres a reason the dudes who lift the "heaviest" are the least mobile.
And comparing a heavy lifter to average cheeto eating Joe is a strawman.
The context is that that isn't what Peter asked about, Peter asked if he personally should continue squatting/deadlifting reasonably(he's lifting for health, not PBs). McGill basically just went straight to "people that chase PRs hurt themselves deadlifting, therefor your shouldn't deadlift either". The clip that this is from is called "Do the benefits of deadlifts and squats outweigh the risk of injury? | Peter Attia and Stuart McGill".
Moot Point vs.Mute point is an error; it does not exist in standard American English. With that said, it's understandable why these terms get confused so often. Moot refers to something being unimportant or irrelevant, while mute means to be completely silent.
Gosh, is getting out of bed in the morning really worth the risk 😂
haha well said!
😂 exactly
I am having a hard time focusing on my other work outs because all I think of is when I am deadlifting again. Having my errectors pushing on my shirts is an addictive feeling.
At 60, I´ve been lifting literally for more than four decades. I´m one of those guys with a "personal best" to pursue. This is what gives me motivation. The professional powerlifter lives on another planet and I can´t compare my humble goals with what they do. My worst injuries were not weightlifting-related, by the way. I´m convinced the older lifter must avoid too much inflammation and not necessarily high loads. I really think that being strong has to do with goals...otherwise, it becomes like being happy: what is it specifically? Thanks for the video.
Well said. Many people do better with something that can be measured and tracked - me included.
Most people I've seen who've espoused that "deadlifts are risky or dangerous" usually have poor form themselves...
yeah I think Stuart does not have this issue
I don't agree with everything our good Dr say. I say deadlift if you want to play with your grandchildren in the future. Too many people are too weak in their old age. I plan on not getting weak in my old age.
I agree. START deadlifting if you want to play with your grandkids when you’re 80.
And pray tell what is the appropriate level of deadlifting need to "play with your grandchildren"?
@@tylerbruce5731 Not sure why exactly you're asking that question in the comments of a YT video when doctors can't even agree on if the average person should do certain lifts or not. The simple answer is that "something is better than nothing", and "nothing" is what the majority of people, especially older people, do.
I think it's pretty safe to say that, if you can't handle at least the bar, then more than likely you aren't going to be able to handle your grandchildren the moment they reach toddler size.
Dr McGill is the most recognised expert in the world ref the above subject working with the best athletes in the world.. Surely he knows what he is talking about...
Yeah, this video is complete garbage.
I’ve been in workshops with McGill and have watched him lift, the man is a fucking UNIT for his age.
I’d bet a large sum of money that this hasn’t even heard of of McGills books and he’s over here spewing his ill-informed BS 😂
I've been off dead lifting and training in general for a number of years, I'm 61. Here lately I've been noticing some hip mobility issues. Today I deadlifted, 5x5 ended up about 215# not super tough, or super easy. Hips already feel more stable. First set felt very stiff and awkward, but by the third set I was loosened up and able to get more hip and less low back into it. 200# is a lot less than the 500# I used to do, but just give it time.
Try some yoga on off days
I deadlift heavy once a week and do light RDLs for 6-8 reps on another training day. I’m 47 and always feel better and more mobile deadlifting.
I'm a micro-man. 5 foot 3," 115 pounds. 48 years old. Deadlifts make me feel taller. They solved all of my office work-related cranky back issues. I can sit in whatever position I want. I can sleep in whatever position I want. These things were not true in my 20s and 30s. Deadlifts make me feel stronger, more upright. I never deadlift to failure because my body tells me that would court injury. I don't care what my one rep max is. That means nothing to me. This is a fundamental movement. Learn to deadlift. Be strong for your age and frame.
Soon to be 65 squat and deadlift alternating about once every 9 -10 days,, if I train squat i'll do a light dl supplemental and vica versa
You are absolutely correct! deadlifts ( great form and loading, good rep schemes) should be done every 7 to 10 days, once you feel fully rested. Words of advice from my friend and mentor, Bruce Wilhelm .
I’ve been lifting since 15, and was blessed to have been coached by Bruce and Jim Schmitz, his coach. I’m pushing 59 and my back is healthy as can be.
Good luck to you and keep up the good work! Be well, Shawn
53 but very similar. Heavy DL + light squat alternating heavy squat + light DL every 4 days, ie, I only squat heavy every 8 days and only DL heavy every 8 days and never to 100% 1RM. Other stuff also, but those are my 2 big compound go to exercises. Any back and mobility issues, I had BEFORE and when I was younger, not since and because of these forms of exercise. That video which I saw myself last week annoyed me and got a very rare from me thumbs down. So much bad info out there from so called ‘experts’…
I’ve just lost a lot of respect for Dr. McGill. Any strength exercise performed incorrectly can be dangerous. Practice perfect technique. Train hard but use common sense. Don’t eliminate deadlifts. People have been picking up heavy stuff off the ground since the days of cavemen.
Thank you soooo much for addressing Dr. McGill's comments. We needed to hear more than just what was said in that video. BTW, I love the numbers of comments here from older lifters like myself. It's encouraging.
Strength is just one variable. Ability and effort with volume is the only thing that needs to be gauged. Your argument for these big compound movements is for yourself and those who trust you enough to follow your advice. Doc McGill is probably one of the most published spinal specialist’s alive today. His advice is extremely practical and as Doc Atia said there’s other ways to accomplish the same training pathway. It’s force production that you’re after and that’s what translates into movement with more ease and then applied to whatever skill you choose. Pick something that has low risk, high upside and allows you to assure your body can continue to flourish.
BTW… your clip of the older lifter pulling 385 had poor form. Poor but typical. Knock the weight in half and regain good movement patterns. 200 with good form is far better the a star on the fridge.
I watched that video last week and it pissed me off too. I’m 63 and I deadlift every 7-8 days and I go up in my heavy set about every 30 days. You should go look at my comment on the video. McGill is already showing signs of sarcopenia……and dementia!
Respectfully, but honestly, having watched many of McGill's videos, I've noticed that he'll contradict what he's said elsewhere, I presume just because he needs to seem agreeable. I suspect had Attia opened with "Every master should DL regularly and shoot for new PRs while maintaining good form. Your thoughts?", McGill would have heartily agreed and amplified the point with the same spinal prop.
Totally agree. I'm 60yo, 60KG and right now straight leg deadlifting 90KG 3-4X/wk. Is that too often, I don't feel bad doing it, so its probably OK. I do like walking down hills backwards, easy on the knees and sprinting up them.
McGill seemed to be conflating a lot of things in his commentary and drawing a very broad-brush conclusion. Elite powerlifters doing massive 1RM deadlifts is not the use case most lifters who are training for a healthy level of strength need to worry about. And by the time you get to phase 3 of, say, the SS NLP, you are only doing 1x5 heavy deadlifts at most once per week anyway. I’ll be 50yo this year and way above average strength for a dude my age…can I squat 3x5@[heavy] 3 times per week, continuing to go heavier and heavier and still function? Of course not, that’s too much volume. So…I regulate myself: 2x per week, one heavy session and one moderate session. McGill’s argument is like saying it’s dangerous to trek the entire Appalachian Trail in February, so therefore you should stop hiking altogether. All that said, his mustache is better than yours Grant.
Whats a "healthy level of strength"?
Being able to pick up a cup of coffee? A 20kg sack of cement? Push a lawnmower? Walk up a couple of sets of stairs? Get off the floor?
Surprised to hear McGill here as he works with top lifters such as Brian Carroll.
@7:00 - "moot point", not mute, common mistake
Those saying that McGill was just talking about heavy lifters, go listen to the original clip for full context because that isn't what the discussion was about, it's called -
"Do the benefits of deadlifts and squats outweigh the risk of injury? | Peter Attia and Stuart McGill"
(BTW, links in the description please)
Good video. I watched that clip and was just left a little frustrated, Peter asked him if he personally should continue squatting and deadlifting, keeping in mind that he's just lifting to stay in shape, not to "lift heavy" or chasing PBs. And McGill basically just replied with these "...well there's so many people that get hurt from deadlifting heavy, powerlifters, kids chasing PBs..." and summed it up with "...and that's why you shouldn't squat or deadlift"(paraphrasing). He NEVER even touched on Peter's specific circumstances and basically just said not to do them because [powerlifter-adjacent examples].
I hate it when people like this do such things. I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that Dr Stuart McGill probably knows WTF he's talking about in general. Which makes this stance so confusing. Maybe he's just arrived at this point via a very healthy dose of confirmation bias(by way of his own patients, the majority of which presumably don't fit the circumstances that Peter outlined)?
I’ve done workshops with McGill and have seen him lift, dudes a fucking UNIT for his age.
And he absolutely, unequivocally knows exactly what he’s talking about 😊
I am a 59 year old veteran🇺🇸…My last deadlift was over 500 pounds and I did not feel good at all…I consistantly pull over 400 pounds every week…I bench well over 225 twice a week…Close grip 225-315lb is my range…Bench press range is 225-320lb…Slingshot bench press 300-350 plus pounds…Taking advice from a doctor who is NOT a lifter is your first mistake…Listen to your body…At times I will deadlift anywhere from 425lbs to 555lbs…This depends on how I feel…If I feel 80% I do about 450lbs…If I feel great and everything works well I can try 560 or beyond…I can still do reps with 600 plus pound rack pulls with complete comfort @ 59 years old…I am a natural weight lifter who has never used any performance enhancing drugs…I am possibly planning on getting more weight plates but, need to pay more bills first…I have done 635 pound trap bar deadlifts well into my 50’s…Folks have the hardest time getting rest …That is when you heal…Consistency is the key…Keep on lifting🐻
I saw the Attia/McGill clip last week. McGill makes a false choice. There is plenty of safe margin for reasonable training goals. Maybe the M.D. part of his name makes him super conservative in his public comments. Thanks for the great analysis. Love the channel.
Using Ed Coan deadlifting 900 pounds at a bodyweight of 220 as an example for how setting PRs will cause "micro tears" in your bones should just automatically disqualify him from anything regarding training. A guy benching 600 will litterally feel the bones in his arms contract because the load is so intense, a guy benching 200, will absolutly not. Those 200 for that individual might be the heaviest they've ever lifted and the heaviest their muscles can take, but not heavy at all for their bones.
i guarantee that the overwhelming majority of his clients have never touched 315, let alone 405. And a 50 year old will not get some "micro tears" from doing a few sets of 200 pounds on the deadlift once a week.
The guy shouldn't be taken seriously at all.
I watched this entire session from Attia & McGill. I was like oh crap am I bound to hurt myself? I've been deadlifting off and on for decades. Yes I've tweaked my back on occasion. Probably more due to not regressing the movement or not being ready or not doing the movement more correct. Appreciate your insight. Yeah I'm an old dude probably not looking to do 600lbs+ anymore but I do wanna include deads as part of my routine
Can’t imagine what this dude thinks happens to someone if they do an atlas stone melody
I am 6 months into Starting Strength. One thing I do think SS needs to do a much better job with is how to program the range from intermediate onwards. Especially for older lifters like myself. Because the SS approach is "always add" there is no concept of simply maintaining strength. Personally, I can see the day when I have acrued enough knowledge about how to do the lifts and press that I won't need SS any longer and can simply find a gym with a squat rack and do my thing.
Read the Barbell Prescription. Written for you. Follows SS method but adapts the routine for older lifters.
@@artmuir I have seen multiple older lifters have fails that could have resulted in serious injury - catastrophic for an older lifter - that the coaches simply shrug off. 😳
The SS way is to get fatter and fatter, which, though it helps with getting stronger, comes at the heavy cost of all that extra load on your most important muscle, your heart. If you weigh less than 200 lb, all the "coaches" will say is that you're anorexic and need to eat more.
it's a novice program, once you are an intermediate you are supposed to move onto something else. Read Practical Programming by Ripetoe if you want that, it goes into how to come up with a routine.
I currently have trained 2 ladies (72) and (68) each deadlift 1x5 per week (135-150 lbs).
Seems to me, the real issue might be the frequency and intensity of these movements…..I’ve noticed that deadlifts are pretty tough on me…..I barbell deadlift every other week and then in between, I do a lighter single arm deadlift. I’m still feeling a stretch in my hams & glutes, and it seems to help me police my intensity of the movement.
For the sake of argument, if you are limiting this to the average trainee out there going to a box gym or training in their garage or whatever, there are many better exercises that will actually get them to what their vague goals actually are in probably 80% of cases (lean, athletic, healthy). For instance, if the person is a little overweight, they could start by learning the kettlebell sport long cycle. Yes, it would likely take a month or two to get them up to speed safely, but after that the injury risk is pretty low and the protection to lower back they get will help them in the deadlift anyway. If a person just wants to get stronger in general, why not clean pulls instead of deadlifts? Better chance for hypertrophy and engages lateral chain in a more natural way, I would argue, with less chance of injury. I would argue the average person only should do deadlifts when they hit bottlenecks in exercises like the above. Why do them if QLs/hamstrings are not a bottleneck at a more complex movement pattern? I say this as somebody who likes deadlifts. Don't take it the wrong way. I just agree that most people would benefit from them in small doses. Lastly, for all the people in that "average gym goer population", you have to consider how many of them are runners, play basketball, etc. Those people, if they are any good at their sports, already know not to deadlift very often. I just don't see the population of people who could benefit from them to be as high as the hype. Most people are not strength athletes, and not even all strength athletes will do deadlifts.
This was incredibly in depth and simple to understand at the same time. Great advice!
I just wanna be the one to save you from unfounded, ill-informed advice. This guy has no idea what he’s talking about.
McGill has 3 books published, two of which I’ve read, and I recommend to anyone that’s trying to understand the role the spine plays in lifting to read those books.
Back Mechanic
Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance
I also like Rebuilding Milo
by dr. Aaron Horschig
Good and happy reading 🙌🏽
Good vid. I like a lot of dr McGill s work but yea he was way off on this one. I’m 54 and still setting pr’s squatting in the 5 and deadlifting in the mid 6’s my back has never been stronger and never have back pain. I do a lot of stretching and mobility (this was more important as I got older for sure) and usually a lot of daily walking although the winter months admittedly set us back and we hate it. Stress fractures happen in every part of the body with repetitive heavy lifting it’s also how our bones and ligaments get stronger. But yes dialing back for periods is definitely necessary when constantly going heavy and setting prs or the accumulation of them ‘can’ eventually be a detriment
A couple of things:
1) I disagree with your and his statement that the 50 year olds goals should be "x". He is a grown man who can set his own goals and if you dont agree or think his goals are dangerous or whatever then don't take that man as a client. On the flip sode, a grown man shouldn't be so easily swayed from his goals/opinions.
2) We agree that strength is good for longevity.
3) I made the same point on the original video, you cannot compare an average guy to Ed Coan who PR'd 901 lbs on his deadlift (I think) and as you pointed out who is taking who knows what. Relative intensity is a thing but so is absolute intensity and a deadlift that is heavy for someone at 315 is obviously not the same stressor as a 900 lb deadlift.
Listening to the original video drove me crazy.
Big Peter Attia fan here, and I had the exact same reaction to this segment. Defies belief that deadlifts produce the same levels of stress in older adults who are lifting to achieve/maintain a base line level of strength vs world record holding power lifters. The loads and training intensity are so different. I am also not going to walk up hills backwards. That sounds like an excellent way to crack my skull open.
I saw this video of theirs when it appeared and just by looking at them I could say they don't know what deadlift is
McGill was Ed Coan's physio.
I was really shocked. Somehow McGill is okay with lifting heavy, 100 lb logs off the floor, but somehow deadlifting is going to ruin your health. The also totally ignored that on a proper program you aren't trying to hit a max every workout. The comments on that video, so many people acting like if you squat or deadlift that your body will explode.
I thought that was weird too. “Don’t deadlift, instead I lift heavy logs.”
There's risk in everything. After balancing risk with benefit, I choose to keep strength training till I drop. I've had more injuries from everyday activities than I've ever had from lifting. I have learned to keep reps at no less than 2 or 3. Grinding out a PR rep always seems to bite me.
I hate the idea that people in the comment section of a lifting channel are judging a guy who's been in the trenches doing decades of peer-reviewed research on the spine, worked with elite athletes, written multiple books on the subject and already done many UA-cam videos on this topic, on one 5 minute section of an interview, on a channel geared towards the general public. Take your head out your ass for a second and realize that the majority of the world's only idea of the gym is kids on social media maxing out with bad form every video.
He's trying to explain in basic terms for the general population that an individual with no prior experience and possibly decades of poor movement shouldn't walk into a gym expecting to deadlift 500lbs and max-out every session. Because if that 50 year old untrained individual does that, they'll likely end up with a bad injury. McGill is in the business of helping the masses prevent and recover from injuries, he's not in the business of one-on-one personal training with every joe shmoe.
So I'm sorry your delicate sensibilities were hurt because a scientist who's spent his entire career studying AND encouraging deadlifts, suggests that a random middle-age individual should not immediately deadlift as their first exercise. Perhaps you should watch one of the other 100 videos McGill has put out on how to deadlift properly, read one of his books that goes into incredible detail on the subject, or study the research yourself and form your own fucking opinion.
A major problem is the state of intervertebral disks. The workings of which are extremely complex. Due to lack of nerve supply to them it is difficult to know what is going on with them.......
43 years old. Try and have my workouts focus on one compound movement per day plus accessory movements. I cant do squats 3x per week but i can squat, deadlift, row, bp, and mp each once a week and feel great.
I was at Costco and helped an older couple lift some bags of salt for their water softner into their cart because they couldnt lift it. A while ago before that at Kroger, I also helped an older lady put her cat food in the trunk of her car out of her cart. Deadlifts and longevity certainly go hand and hand.
I used to have back pain in my 40s, been deadlifting overx10 years now, back pain gone, I lift heavy like a powerlifter but do not compete. Older people are given wrong advice about training and nutrition such as taking it easy and avoiding protein. I am 60+ and the healthiest/strongest I have ever been with heavy lifting and meat based diet. Those who talk about longevity tend to ignore QUALITY of life, I know many elderly who had/have longevity but no quality of life.
53 years old here. Did squats 2x/week + DL once for like a year or two, with the occasional 5 days/week. Not a big deal. Just don't go heavy each time. Just alternate between volume vs intensity, a few "special" alternate workouts (box squats, lighter weight DL but with pauses at the knees or maybe bands, etc) and you'll be fine.
The starting question for that person he mentioned with back pain. Is how about you fix the back pain then see how lifting can go. PR and back pain is probably a recipe for injury. Maybe some scans, or range of motion tests with pain checks. Fix the injury then go for it. But i'm not a lifter. Just a regular be better than last time person. Or maingainer. i sit way too often for work and my low back is tight. Watching pat McNamara and how you can progress to do other things and still be active and strong. The idea about range of motion and various movements to strengthen things to not hurt. Most power lifters are not about range of motion or off axis things. Atlaspowershrug is all about old lifts and one armed things. Those are about core and stability then building on top of that. Not the other way around. Deadlift is probably not the way to strengthen you back. Or is it? Let me know.
It’s one thing to use these tools to STRENGTH TRAIN but, it’s another thing to chase numbers. When you chase numbers and get to limit loads it can be problematic. These lifts are tools in your toolbox. Training them as a strength coach and not a powerlifter.
Strength training is always about getting a bigger number. Bigger number = more force output = you've gotten stronger.
That doesn't mean taking imprudent, poorly timed jumps somewhere along the intermediate phase. Progressive overload requires smaller jumps over a sufficient period of time, resulting in an adaptation response that allows you to lift a little heavier than your last intensity workout. For novices it's every training session, for intermediates it's once a week for a while. Then it spreads out to linger periods of time. And for advanced it's a very dialed in thing, where PR's are more of, let's say in a non-exhaustive description: a season-season thing.
Thanks! I am a 50 year old lifter. I deadlfit 405-425lb for reps once a week. I don't worry about personal bests, as I don't think they are very helpful for strength and increase risk of injury. I have no plans to stop doing my favorite lifts. I appreciate the confirmation because I saw the video admonishing deadlifts.
You are Dead Wrong. Those experts are 100% spot on. I never dead lifted or did squats and had a 36inch vertical jump. Bench Pressed at the combine 225lbs for 17 reps at 6ft 192lbs body weight.
I'm so glad I watch this video I had to stop dead lifting before I even really began! He really made me scared about the idea I'm 140 pounds female and was dead lifting 135
I am a Masters 1B powerlifting athlete, and I am very competative powerlifter while chasing PR's. It's all about programming and load management that reduce the risk of injury and not the movement. I hope to remain a competative powerlifter and live a healthy lifestyle for the next 40+ years.
I gave up the super heavy stuff when I stopped competing, but I still see value in squats and deadlifts, assuming you’re doing them wisely. There’s this old adage that squats cause knee pain, and deadlifts cause back pain- they certainly can, but they can also HEAL and PREVENT that pain.
Finally! Thank you!
Well, both of them revealed that when they were doing them heavy when they were younger, they were programming wrong. You kind of touched on it. As intermediate lifters they were programming PRs like they were just starting the NLP.
Their deadlifting wasn't wrong, they're programming was. Deads are fine if you program correctly.
Respectfully i'm going to assume you don't know anything about biomechanics or biotensegrity your wrong would love to chat
The issue with deadlifting is not necessarily injury risk, it's fatigue. For an advanced lifter without goals of competing in powerlifting, it has minimal scenarios where it belongs in a program. Technique and nervous system adaptations come quickly, lasting strength comes from building muscle tissue, and the deadlift is not an optimal tool for this.
There's a few scenarios where regardless of your training experience, I could justify a deadlift in when you don't have powerlifting aspirations:
1. You just like doing them
2. You're time constrained in the gym
3. You don't have a strong deadlift and have some emotional reason for wanting this; at this point the fatigue issue hasn't come into play yet
My strength levels in the deadlift are very elite. I only do them for my ego and am happy to admit this if it keeps a single person from deadlifting without thinking about "why".
💯Correct ! I am 67 and just train by feel, and keep on adjusting.
Every man should feel the power that his body can reach at least once in his life. You owe it to yourself - and that means training hard, eating a bunch, and sleeping well.
Your advice is spot on! I personally use cycling as my cardio exercise 2 days a week to counterbalance the 2-3 gym strength sessions.
Yes I saw the Stewart McGill video and disagreed with him for basically the same reasons. Statistically, he could not possibly have a sample size of elderly lifters that deadlift competitive levels that allow any conclusions to be drawn. His conclusions are anecdotal. I am 72, weigh 160 and deadlift 5 x 5 at about 245 lbs. I love it. Form is everything.
I have been a trainer and exercise physiologist for over 10 years. I am very cautious and continually impressed by Dr. McGills prescriptive effectiveness and commentary based in research. The "back pain" population, as discussed by Dr. McGill, has better exercises than dead lifting. It is interesting to discuss but dangerous to encourage or prescribe exercises to everyone to do deadlifts in this population...walking backwards uphill fatigues the quads and with cuing emphasizes glut activation and stability. The # of steps total is loosly associated with benefits...the time volume + walking intensity does however.. You may get some undesireable legal exposure from your viewers on this one by encouraging compound lifts in the majority of people. Data is available on injury risk and deadlifts in the back pain population. Older lifters with back pain are likely a special population with increased risk and suseptibility.
I can see what he's saying, in his example, his client was injured so what he said kinda makes sense.
In my opinion, Romanian or stiff legged deadlifts are most likely better alternatives for the vast majority of people who are just looking to be fit, healthy, strong etc.
Deadlifts make you stronger at deadlifts, so it's of course the best option for powerlifters/strongmen. But if you just want a stronger posterior chain, which is the main purpose of hip hinges, why not stick the "safer"/less fatiguing and pretty much equally as effective alternatives?
I am 47. I do deadlift, front Squat, low bar squat, on different days once a week. On each of those days I also do an upper body push and pull. My back feels great. I am constantly getting stronger and putting more weight on the bar. Feels great. Depending on the day it takes 45 minutes if I am feeling super rested and energetic to an hour twenty if I feel beat. I have no clue how anyone is serious about longevity if they are not going to work the biggest muscles in the body? Walking up a hill? I am not trying to be the old guy that strains to walk up a hill. F*** off with that lol
Always this old fear mongering, automatically assuming that deadlifting can only be done for the sole purpose of maxing out. Well, obviously you shouldn't do that unless you intend to specifically peak or compete. That's not what it's for, for most people. The 70-90% range is pretty damn safe and will get you a lot stronger and much less likely to get hurt.
Oh btw, Ed Coan's max is SIGNIFICANTLY more impactful on his body than the average person's max. Most of us aren't strong enough to get tears and fractures. When you see someone tear both quads off the bone, they're pushing themselves to the max, have world class rare strength genetics, are juiced to the gills, and probably have been taking too many chances for max performance. It just doesn't scale to the average person.
Why is everyone on here acting like McGill and Attia say to never do deadlifts? They said to do them safely. I know for a fact that Attia deadlifts multiple times a week so shut tf up about longevity people saying deadlifts are bad. Attia at least is not one of ‘em, like I said he does deadlifts all the time.
I hear you man, this video is absolute garbage and this poor guy is simply out of his depth and really just doesn’t understand what McGill and Attia are saying.
I’ve done workshops with McGill at the Perform Better Summit in Long Beach, CA. I’ve seen the dude lift and for his age he’s an absolute UNIT 🤖.
Great Video , I appreciated your point of view 👍🏽
Can you do squats / deadlift 3 times a week if you only do 2 sets each day and reps of 12.
Thanks for the rebuttal to this video. Debating about adding deadlifts back into my routine but I’ve done work the last month to strengthen my core & to use proper technique. It seems like 400lb would be ideal to be strong to be useful but not “risk” hurting myself
But this rebuttal is garbage my man, this guy is way out of his depth and simply does not have the resume that McGill does.
Dr. McGill is the authority on all things spinal regarding rehabilitation, spinal resilience and performance. The man has dedicated his life’s work to research on the topic.
If you’re really trying to get strong and stay safe doing it I’d actually recommend reading McGills books Back Mechanic and Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance as well as
Aaron Horschig - Rebuilding Milo.
Those books will change you life and keep you well informed 🙌🏽
Wishing you the best and not trying to pick your comment apart, just trying to help 🤙🏽
To prevent unduly stressing the lower back, do you recommend squatting and deadlifting during the same session and if so, in what order? On the other hand, if we should deadlift and squat on different days, what should we consider when choosing how far apart in days/weeks to perform these two exercises?
Attia is wrong to say you can activate all the deadlifting muscles in other ways. Not because this isn't true, but because activation is irrelevant for strength AND hypertrophy. You need mechanical tension for hypertrophy, and weight on the bar for strength.
You thoroughly debunked what he didn't say and then spent the rest of the time agreeing with him. Well done!
Another thing that bugs me about the discourse around squats and deads is that injury almost seems like game over. It’s all about avoiding injury, treating a tweak like it’s the boogeyman. Obviously we don’t want injuries and everyone’s going to have a varying capacity to deal with varying injuries. But one of the most empowering things about training in my experience is learning to address and overcome injuries. The squats and deadlifts that “hurt” me are the same tools that healed me. I just had to do my due diligence - work on weaknesses, refine technique, take bracing strength and recovery more seriously, etc. They were learning experiences, practice in patience and I feel more confident lifting heavy now than I ever did before a couple of tweaks. Again doesn’t mean train like an idiot because injuries are okay, just means there’s a middle ground between ego lifting and being terrified of any possible tweak
I think the nuance of him stating the client was a "50 yr old with back pain" came to him and states their goal is to set PR. It's pretty much what he did with Brian Carroll. How about get healthy and forget about PR's. Except this client isn't an athlete, probably less knowledgeable about lifting and isn't young. If i went to a specialist after a knee or hip replacement at 50 and said my goal is to set a marathon PR. They would probably say something similar. It's like Stan Efferding always says, when you pursue the outer limits of a sport like lifiting, it isn't the healthiest thing. Ive heard Mcgill on many podcasts, and i dont think he is strictly against deadlifts, squats etc. As ive heard him say many times when he answers any question...it depends.
It looks like the Doctors are talking about the possible negative results of deadlifting vs other exercises an older age . I think i missed it, can someone direct me to the part of this video where he directly comments on this? I mean, last time i checked doesn't matter how strong i am if my joints don't work because i can't generate any force without bending something.
I watched this video from McGill but did not agree with his scare tactics. I squat and deadlift (but done over do it) because it helps strengthen my core and I am 65+ years old now.
I think Rippetoe and Starting Strength fanboys don’t want to do cardio because its hard.
That dr was ridiculous saying to not deadlift
How about doing trap bar deadlifts using the high handles every 4 days? As long as the weight is below about 90% of 1 rep max and volume is not too high, I think most older healthy guys should be able to cope with it.
Everytime I’ve ever deadlifted I efffed my back up. I’ve had lifting coaches help me on form and I know what I’m doing….There’s so much you can do to work your back without them but if it works for you go for it.
Excellent video, thanks for posting!