Lennox makes some interesting points, but there is a more fundamental way to answer this. We are deeply flawed; in fact, we are super predators. (This is also why the lofty teachings of a Christ or even a Buddha are hard for many to follow genuinely). The best that religion, or reasonable secular government can do is to mitigate evil and injustice. Now, of the 15 worst anthropogenic conflicts in history (all, horrifically, with 10+ million killed) only 2 or 3 were religious wars. So, religion is hardly the source of most evil, as Hitchens and other have claimed; moreover, by this logic we should get rid of all secular governments, since they gave an even worse record (worst of all? The secular-humanist 20th cent., of course, with 2 world wars and 100 million murdered by the Marxist-Leninist miltant atheism of various communist systems. Hardly an inspiring record; hardly 'progress')
Lastly, you have to remember that God is not limited to what we consider to be time and space. God is outside of time and outside of space. We see things in 2 Dimensions, and we can move around things to perceive a 3rd Dimension. What if God looks at something from a 4 Dimensional perspective? A sphere would look like a circle. A cube would look like a cross or a blocky star. The idea that God looks at things from outside of space is almost incomprehensible to the mind.
I grant that at one time based on our knowledge base the idea of various things implying a creator seemed reasonable/true, however, given what we know in science - the idea of a designer is no longer supportable. NOTE: Even when the idea of a creator was more reasonable based on what we knew, it has always been a point of conjecture, since, there was/is no evidence for what was being suggested as being the case.
1. Languages change to add additional point of meaning as needed. 2. They had a word for ball, which would have been reasonably accurate. 3. The claim of an omniscient entity demands considerably better than what has been presented. The presentation is reflective of the ignorance of the time.
MyContext That was not a proof of god. You need to see what the speaker is saying, not what you want it to be. He was saying violence in the name of Christ, tells you the person is not following Christ by being violent. It is like someone saying they are a pacifist, but they just joined the army, so they can legally kill people. Jesus did not tell anyone, nor is it even suggested, that you should use violence to spread Christian ideals. Did you hear it? Or has someone cut you ear off in the past? If someone did cut your ear off, I apologize for that person, in the name of Christ. They hurt you & that was not right. I think we can agree, violence in the name of god, but against his wishes, is bad. That was John's point. Thank you.
I agree with the good espoused, however, given the intrinsically contradictory claims inherent in the bible, the text does NOT support claims of good as a sole notion. The text fosters confusion and given that it is NOT true causes many bizarre notions as people attempt use the text AS IF IT WERE true. This has resulted in many people attempting to fight what has been discovered to hold on to a fictional notion suggested by the text.
Ever seen a picture of earth from space? 2 Dimensional circle represents that view perfectly fine. Clarify what scripture you say the Bible presents the earth as non-moving.
There is no basis to consider that a god of any sort exists, however, looking at your proposal would entail incompetence with regard to an omniscient entity not knowing how to present things accurately to those that it is wishing to communicate.
It never says that the sun goes around the earth. It says that the sun rises and sets, which is a point of view, a perspective. It does refer to the earth as fixed in the heavens. If the earth were not fixed, it would fly out of the solar system. We call the fixation of the earth "gravity". But we don't really know what gravity is. We just see its affect on things.
Whenever you read something, you should always ask a few questions. What does it say? What is the message? Who was it meant for? So what does the Bible actually say? It certainly never tells anybody that the moon is a light source, because it defines only one light source in existence: God. God is the source of all light. The sun doesn't even live up to such a high standard to be called a light source. So how could the moon?
Many spirit beings are described in the Bible: even the almighty god fights aggressively against an evil spirit - he even sacrifices his son to the forces of evil. Who is actually the ruler in the drama?
@@eensio "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Mt. 23:13)
MyContext Firstly the bible never said or depicts the earth as flat it simple describe the creation of the earth as it would appear to an observer on the earth secondly the bible never depicts the earth as a stationary object, on a side not i would like to debate with you, you sound intelligent lets chat on google + , further i'm open to your opinion.
I would suggest that you read the passage again regarding the moon, sun, and stars. Since, the passage DOES depict the moon as a light source. This makes the passage false, since, the moon is a reflector as opposed to a light source. I grant that the moon could be considered a light source IF one did not know any better, however, the fact that it is presented based on appearance as opposed to reality reflects the ignorance of the time.
1. What have I presented that you find arrogant? 2. One does not need to know everything to know that some things are not true. 3. "even though it perfectly describes fundamental things" - The moon is NOT a light source, it is a reflector, although, it looks like a light source to those that did not know any better.. The earth goes around the sun as opposed to the sun going around the earth. The bible refers to the earth as being fixed. We know this is NOT true.
I am reading what it actually says and concluding that it is a product of men based on the depictions of the material. I grant that there are pieces that can be considered metaphorical, however, there is lots of material that is clearly false. There is also the issue of changing god notions and various other theological notions which results in contradictions.
That, to my mind, is a very arrogant way of thinking. Surely you are not suggesting that you, or anybody else, fully comprehends every word of the Bible? No pope, preacher, or prophet has ever made the claim that they fully understand the Bible. It is confusing in the way that quantum mechanics is confusing: it is vastly complex, even though it perfectly describes fundamental things. Because even in all our technology and knowledge, we still know very little about life and the world.
That's exactly the arrogance that I'm talking about. How do you know that's what the Bible says? You're drawing an incorrect inference based on your personal bias against the BIble. By your logic, when Jesus said "I am the door," then you must have thought he was saying he's a large plank of wood with a knob attached to it.
The bible presents the earth as a non-moving object, when combined with the sun moving - the depiction is clearly false. The bible also depicts the earth as being flat, which is also false. The biblical depiction is one of the factors that informed the Church's position against various claims in the past which were against the earth being a center. Granted the science initially had problems, so, there was reason to reject changing.
Actually is is not false because the bible is written from an observes perspective. From Earth is APPEARS that the sun moves, but in reality from what we now know from modern technology, the Earth rotates around the sun. Isiah 40:22 clearly implies that the Earth is NOT flat!
@@saxmanjpr5092 There is no above with respect to a sphere, but there is an above with regard to a circle (which is what is presented in the Isaiah 40:22 passage that you referenced). So, yes the depiction does reflect the idea of a flat earth. Any claim which is NOT the case is false, thus the depiction of the earth not moving is false.
There is only pure worship. Everything else is false religion, which yes, the world will be better off without. In fact, the Bible foretells the complete destruction of false religion and her churches. ( Revelation 18). It also foretells a time when there will only be pure worship, and not the confusing mess of religion we see today. " For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea". ( Habakkuk 2:14 ASV). This scripture shows plainly that only the worship of Jehovah will fill the earth. Interestingly enough, the churches that claim to be Christian have replaced the Divine name in their Bibles with LORD. Thus proving that they are not part of the fulfillment of the prophecy but are in opposition to it. Now is the time to get out of false religion before it is too late. (Revelation 18:4)
Yes the world would be better off without religion in my opinion this is one of the biggest illusion, you don't have to be in a religion to know GOD that is something you must find/ experience on your own I can tell you ice cream taste good but in order for that to be true for you, you have to taste it for your self, and there have been much blood shed when it comes to religion and still to this day people fight over religion which has nothing to do with what Jesus was teaching. Like, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within and all these things I do you can do as well and that we are all GODs
Despite the atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion, there is still insufficient evidence to conclude that religion itself is inherently harmful. In fact, there is better reason to conclude that this is not the case, as the majority of the Earth's population historically has been and today remains religious, yet such atrocities are still a rarity, rather than the norm.
So, if you were to teach kids about the moon, you would tell them that the moon produces light as opposed to it being a reflector? Seriously? - 1. Given the claims of omniscient and perfect, there should be absolutely NO ERRORS of any sort. 2. Given the claims of omnipotence, there should be no issue of human failings that would corrupt the material. On these two points alone, the bible is a fictional work with regard to what people claim it to represent.
Based on what we currently know all of these claims are fictional: 1) Noah's flood 2) Genesis Account of creation 3) Cosmology of the bible 4) Person living in a fish 5) Bible contradictions - /watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk - If it weren't for ignorance, indoctrination, and exploitation; I suspect religion would have disappeared. - If you need more details about the contradictions and errors in the bible, you can PM me...
![[4 of 7] Why is there Sin and Suffering in the World? David Skeel cross-examines John Lennox](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gkxRn37MGBk/mqdefault.jpg)
![[4 of 7] Why is there Sin and Suffering in the World? David Skeel cross-examines John Lennox](/img/tr.png)
![[6 of 6] Which God? Do the details really matter? John Lennox responds to law prof David Skeel](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YUtGHJBkH6w/mqdefault.jpg)
Lennox is a great thinker and speaker!
If made-up religious bs can fool a Prof. John Lennox, imagine what it could do to ordinary folks.
WOW, great analogy with the cutting off of the ear. Never thought of it that way.
Brilliant!
love uncle John!
Amen.
Lennox makes some interesting points, but there is a more fundamental way to answer this. We are deeply flawed; in fact, we are super predators. (This is also why the lofty teachings of a Christ or even a Buddha are hard for many to follow genuinely). The best that religion, or reasonable secular government can do is to mitigate evil and injustice. Now, of the 15 worst anthropogenic conflicts in history (all, horrifically, with 10+ million killed) only 2 or 3 were religious wars. So, religion is hardly the source of most evil, as Hitchens and other have claimed; moreover, by this logic we should get rid of all secular governments, since they gave an even worse record (worst of all? The secular-humanist 20th cent., of course, with 2 world wars and 100 million murdered by the Marxist-Leninist miltant atheism of various communist systems. Hardly an inspiring record; hardly 'progress')
Do I detect a tinge of Jordan Peterson within you?
Brilliant man indeed.
❤️ this brother.
Lastly, you have to remember that God is not limited to what we consider to be time and space. God is outside of time and outside of space. We see things in 2 Dimensions, and we can move around things to perceive a 3rd Dimension. What if God looks at something from a 4 Dimensional perspective? A sphere would look like a circle. A cube would look like a cross or a blocky star. The idea that God looks at things from outside of space is almost incomprehensible to the mind.
I grant that at one time based on our knowledge base the idea of various things implying a creator seemed reasonable/true, however, given what we know in science - the idea of a designer is no longer supportable. NOTE: Even when the idea of a creator was more reasonable based on what we knew, it has always been a point of conjecture, since, there was/is no evidence for what was being suggested as being the case.
Short and sweet. Like the true. 💖
1. Languages change to add additional point of meaning as needed.
2. They had a word for ball, which would have been reasonably accurate.
3. The claim of an omniscient entity demands considerably better than what has been presented. The presentation is reflective of the ignorance of the time.
MyContext
That was not a proof of god. You need to see what the speaker is saying, not what you want it to be. He was saying violence in the name of Christ, tells you the person is not following Christ by being violent.
It is like someone saying they are a pacifist, but they just joined the army, so they can legally kill people. Jesus did not tell anyone, nor is it even suggested, that you should use violence to spread Christian ideals. Did you hear it? Or has someone cut you ear off in the past?
If someone did cut your ear off, I apologize for that person, in the name of Christ. They hurt you & that was not right. I think we can agree, violence in the name of god, but against his wishes, is bad. That was John's point. Thank you.
I’ve often wondered whether Malchus believed on Jesus of Nazareth and was saved. I hope so.
Wow!!
I agree with the good espoused, however, given the intrinsically contradictory claims inherent in the bible, the text does NOT support claims of good as a sole notion. The text fosters confusion and given that it is NOT true causes many bizarre notions as people attempt use the text AS IF IT WERE true. This has resulted in many people attempting to fight what has been discovered to hold on to a fictional notion suggested by the text.
Ever seen a picture of earth from space? 2 Dimensional circle represents that view perfectly fine.
Clarify what scripture you say the Bible presents the earth as non-moving.
There is no basis to consider that a god of any sort exists, however, looking at your proposal would entail incompetence with regard to an omniscient entity not knowing how to present things accurately to those that it is wishing to communicate.
It never says that the sun goes around the earth. It says that the sun rises and sets, which is a point of view, a perspective. It does refer to the earth as fixed in the heavens. If the earth were not fixed, it would fly out of the solar system. We call the fixation of the earth "gravity". But we don't really know what gravity is. We just see its affect on things.
Whenever you read something, you should always ask a few questions. What does it say? What is the message? Who was it meant for? So what does the Bible actually say? It certainly never tells anybody that the moon is a light source, because it defines only one light source in existence: God. God is the source of all light. The sun doesn't even live up to such a high standard to be called a light source. So how could the moon?
Here is a series discussing the issue: /watch?v=MS78uT8j3ok&list=PL5D00A212247F41DE
Many spirit beings are described in the Bible: even the almighty god fights aggressively against an evil spirit - he even sacrifices his son to the forces of evil. Who is actually the ruler in the drama?
Jesus defeated death by taking upon Himself the sins of the world, dying on the cross, and coming back to life. ✌️
If you read the text of Job, there satan easily makes God yealous and God stops to protect Job. Who is the ruler in this drama?
@@eensio Of course God pwned satan because He undid all the physical afflictions Job suffered at the hands of the devil.
@@eensio "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Mt. 23:13)
“Cutting the ears off of people.”
Mind blowing.
This man understands Christianity. Unfortunately Irish people of today are more interested in lgbtq rights.
"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible."
Mark Twain
MyContext Firstly the bible never said or depicts the earth as flat it simple describe the creation of the earth as it would appear to an observer on the earth secondly the bible never depicts the earth as a stationary object, on a side not i would like to debate with you, you sound intelligent lets chat on google + , further i'm open to your opinion.
I would suggest that you read the passage again regarding the moon, sun, and stars. Since, the passage DOES depict the moon as a light source. This makes the passage false, since, the moon is a reflector as opposed to a light source. I grant that the moon could be considered a light source IF one did not know any better, however, the fact that it is presented based on appearance as opposed to reality reflects the ignorance of the time.
1. What have I presented that you find arrogant?
2. One does not need to know everything to know that some things are not true.
3. "even though it perfectly describes fundamental things" - The moon is NOT a light source, it is a reflector, although, it looks like a light source to those that did not know any better.. The earth goes around the sun as opposed to the sun going around the earth. The bible refers to the earth as being fixed. We know this is NOT true.
I am reading what it actually says and concluding that it is a product of men based on the depictions of the material. I grant that there are pieces that can be considered metaphorical, however, there is lots of material that is clearly false. There is also the issue of changing god notions and various other theological notions which results in contradictions.
That, to my mind, is a very arrogant way of thinking. Surely you are not suggesting that you, or anybody else, fully comprehends every word of the Bible? No pope, preacher, or prophet has ever made the claim that they fully understand the Bible.
It is confusing in the way that quantum mechanics is confusing: it is vastly complex, even though it perfectly describes fundamental things. Because even in all our technology and knowledge, we still know very little about life and the world.
That's exactly the arrogance that I'm talking about. How do you know that's what the Bible says? You're drawing an incorrect inference based on your personal bias against the BIble. By your logic, when Jesus said "I am the door," then you must have thought he was saying he's a large plank of wood with a knob attached to it.
The bible presents the earth as a non-moving object, when combined with the sun moving - the depiction is clearly false. The bible also depicts the earth as being flat, which is also false. The biblical depiction is one of the factors that informed the Church's position against various claims in the past which were against the earth being a center. Granted the science initially had problems, so, there was reason to reject changing.
Actually is is not false because the bible is written from an observes perspective. From Earth is APPEARS that the sun moves, but in reality from what we now know from modern technology, the Earth rotates around the sun. Isiah 40:22 clearly implies that the Earth is NOT flat!
@@saxmanjpr5092 There is no above with respect to a sphere, but there is an above with regard to a circle (which is what is presented in the Isaiah 40:22 passage that you referenced). So, yes the depiction does reflect the idea of a flat earth.
Any claim which is NOT the case is false, thus the depiction of the earth not moving is false.
on a side 'NOTE' sorry my bad side note with an e sorry
The abuse, war, ignorance, and sheer neurotic waste of time of the fantasies of God!
There is only pure worship. Everything else is false religion, which yes, the world will be better off without. In fact, the Bible foretells the complete destruction of false religion and her churches. ( Revelation 18). It also foretells a time when there will only be pure worship, and not the confusing mess of religion we see today. " For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea". ( Habakkuk 2:14 ASV). This scripture shows plainly that only the worship of Jehovah will fill the earth. Interestingly enough, the churches that claim to be Christian have replaced the Divine name in their Bibles with LORD. Thus proving that they are not part of the fulfillment of the prophecy but are in opposition to it. Now is the time to get out of false religion before it is too late. (Revelation 18:4)
Yes the world would be better off without religion in my opinion this is one of the biggest illusion, you don't have to be in a religion to know GOD that is something you must find/ experience on your own I can tell you ice cream taste good but in order for that to be true for you, you have to taste it for your self, and there have been much blood shed when it comes to religion and still to this day people fight over religion which has nothing to do with what Jesus was teaching. Like, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within and all these things I do you can do as well and that we are all GODs
Despite the atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion, there is still insufficient evidence to conclude that religion itself is inherently harmful. In fact, there is better reason to conclude that this is not the case, as the majority of the Earth's population historically has been and today remains religious, yet such atrocities are still a rarity, rather than the norm.
So, if you were to teach kids about the moon, you would tell them that the moon produces light as opposed to it being a reflector? Seriously?
-
1. Given the claims of omniscient and perfect, there should be absolutely NO ERRORS of any sort.
2. Given the claims of omnipotence, there should be no issue of human failings that would corrupt the material.
On these two points alone, the bible is a fictional work with regard to what people claim it to represent.
what is the fictional notion you talk of??
Based on what we currently know all of these claims are fictional:
1) Noah's flood
2) Genesis Account of creation
3) Cosmology of the bible
4) Person living in a fish
5) Bible contradictions - /watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk
-
If it weren't for ignorance, indoctrination, and exploitation; I suspect religion would have disappeared.
-
If you need more details about the contradictions and errors in the bible, you can PM me...