This tierlist is flawed. How could you create a endtag tierlist that does not take into cosideration map color of the end tag. This is the most important thing in my map painting game.
Since Lorraine doesn't have a culture requirement to form Lotharingia you can also get the Mongol mission tree on top if your primary culture is one of the eligible Altaic cultures.
@@mustapha_cc8830 I mean I will have to double check in fairness, but I was operating under that assumption, because I had so many people on the Eu4 discord say oh I am France why can't I form x, and having to be told its an endtag. Ok it wasn't a lot of people, but enough for me to remember it!
@@LemonCake101 I vaguely remember an exploit involving switching between England and France repeatedly to cheese Imperial Authority where forming one removed provinces from the empire, the player added them back when Emperor for province IA (pre-rework), lost an election, and switched tag to reset the cycle. Can't find a video though.
There was also the Grandest Lan where Arumba was Provence and Florryworry formed Florence ----> France ---> Italy, then handed the provinces back so both of them had French ideas, back in the days of 20% Morale.
Forming Persia then forming Eranshahr lets you keep the better Persian ideas. Don’t know if that makes them better or worse but it is probably the best way to min max
Also dunno if its possible depending on how long you want to wait but waiting to click the bonus age ability for dev might also be really nice, planning on doing that with ardabyl in my next run
The longest end game tag chain for achievement-eligible games I could find was (Crusader Teutons) -> Ethiopia -> Aksum -> Mongol Empire (requires Holy Horde government from Crusader Teutons) -> Rome -> Holy Rome (requires monarchy) for five total. Managing Imperial Authority in the late game to unite the HRE would be painful.
The eu4 Canada flag is inspired by the original Canadian flag, which had the three conjoined maple leaves. Also spain gets an obscene amount of PUs, imo it's A
Thank God they changed the original Canada flag. As for the PU's, yeah true the England and Austria ones are quite nice. Maybe I was a touch too harsh on them.
@BobbiusRossius I always love the statements of 'you forgot' yes they have it, they also have curia all power cost, im not gonna list every buff every tag gets every time, it would be a terrible video ;) But yeah for sure it helps, but I think Bohemia runs are more fun for that.
@BobbiusRossius I mean if its compared to all countries, anything above B goes into S, but I have to judge them with the context of the power of the other tags too.
I am a somewhat experienced player, and I still can't see how the Mughals is the best contender for a WC. I did my first WC as Oirat->Yuan->Mongol empire after a few failed attempts as the Mughals, and it seemed almost trivial in comparison. Great video as always though!
Well, the best way to approach a topic like this is to best think 'what stops you getting a WC' if that issue is the enemy troops fighting back, you need more army quality. If that issue is rebels, you want either more manpower to fight them, or more unrest reduction. If that issue is 'running out of time' you need to be either more aggressive so back to needing more troops/rebel suppression or more ways to generate Admin (so money for advisors) and CCR. Fundamentally my argument boils down to the fact that the Mughals cover by far the most issues on the list above. If your limitations are best lifted by Hordes, then by all means use Hordes. Pick the right tool for the job.
It's a debatable topic but basically what he said. It's up to what you're good at more managing than anything, Mughals are just generally the easiest because they cover more of the bases needed to get the WC
@@LemonCake101 If you want 'a funny', after forming Mughals, jump straight into china through the himalayan nations and rebel switch to Confucian. Now you turned both culture and religion into minor buffs.
Ok but consider for a moment that commonwealth is the only tag in the game that lets you do a sheep genocide WC, who turns all wool provinces into cloth provinces
Ideas are bad by Europe standards. Almost no missions or events. Only things they have going for them is Naples vassalization CB (if you're lucky) + frequent Curia Controller but it's so hard to excommunicate these days with Buy Indulgences... you can't even pull it off against your rivals lol.
I would put Commonwealth at least in the A tear due to their permanent modifiers you can get when playing as Lithuania or Poland and their missions are really fun. Also suggestion for future tier lists, when talking add nations ideas and maybe even missions if possible, would make it more interesting to listen to.
I mean again, most of the fun modifiers can be gotten with Poland. As for the ideas on screen, I can see the argument for it, I am just concerned with how much space the tier list already takes up. I have almost a 'system' now of the tier list videos being just the tier list themselves with me discussing the targets.
I have actually played a Rozwi Empire game, wasnt really anything special, and that is why i only did it once, it really doesn't deserve being an end game tag. But at least there is an achievment.
You can get the royal fires as normal Zoro Persia btw, so imo Eranshahr is B-tear (weaker ideas), and Persia is S-tier, since you can get all of the Eranshahr buffs anyway
I feel like GB should be atleast A, keep in mind it's mission tree is very strong and it's a tag that has HUGE money making potential, both by trade and production. Also it bas8cally gets +5discipline via missions, the discipline only affects marines, you also get rid of the +10shock, but in my last GB campaign my main armies were only marines so I'd say that counts.
I mean if you build around marines specifically, sure I believe GB is the best tag for that, and in fairness they have enough sailor buffs to make that viable too. I don't think its enough to nock them up though, the competition here is pretty stiff.
18:32 As a Pole I am always confused when I hear word "sejm" pronounced the way you did, because you pronounce it noway near how it is pronounced. And I know that so many people do the same mistake, but it is so far off that I cannot register it as common misspelling and each time I spend too long to admit just to realize what somebody is talking about. For future reference Polish word "sejm" is pronounced almost identical to English word "same". As for the PLC being an end-tag I always though that PLC should have some kind of mini-Mughal mechanics. Because while everybody know about Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth not many are aware that Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth almost happened and Polish-Lithuanian-Muscovite Commonwealth was also briefly proposed. Also I always though that it would be cool if Sarmatia was a formable tag, thing "the final form of PLC", when you can form it only if you have low absolutism, high nobility loyalty, you are Catholic and you have blob enough.
Fair enough, the issue is the majority of my audience is English speaking, at least according to UA-cam analytics, so if I was to pronounce it as 'same' I feel like they would get confused instead. Its a weird situation with no real winners unfortunately. A similar thing is Wallachia, pronounced as Wa-lay-chi-a that makes sense in English, but the real pronoun cation is nothing like that, and also most people know it by the wrong pronunciation. It could be an interesting extension for the Commonwealth for sure, unfortunetly at the moment I believe it is just assumed that the area has 'enough' content. I could be wrong though, but I won't be too optimistic.
Concerning the Mongol Empire: this might be a known thing, I just don’t know why this happens to me… in my Oirat > Yuan > Mongol Empire runs, once I get to form Yuan and I can raise banners in my Sino-Altaic provinces, I start culture converting other provinces to be able to raise more banners, as one does. While I am Yuan, I do not have to convert the religion of a province to tengri before being able to convert its culture. However, as soon as I become the Mongol Empire, I must convert the religion of a province before I convert its culture. Has anyone else noticed this?
Well, religious conversion for Tengri nations is weird: say you take Confucian as your religion, that is now your 'Primary' and hence you can do things usually only reserved for primary religious provinces, like culture convert. I believe that may have something to do with it? But there is very little I can do without access to the save, only make educated guesses.
The Decadence disaster isn't actually too bad since they nerfed the requirements for succeeding, the decadence bar itself is god awful and the process to get it just wastes your time and by the time you get it, you'd just be better off trying to conquer as normal since the maluses from having 100% decadence make the playthrough obnoxious. Also the mana sink for trying to get anatolia and balkans to being prosperous again is also just kind of horrible
East Africa in general got nerfed into the ground because certain people threw fits that non-European (and especially African) nations had strong ideas and monuments.
Paradox is weird with what they nerf. Hussite got hard nerfs because people complained when it wasn’t that strong, and much more broken stuff stays in this game to this day, like uncolonizing provinces
Ethiopia/Aksum is actually underrated. Specifically the Cawa units. They have -50% land attrition, combine that with either quantity or defensive ideas, plus some well placed forts, and you can bleed even powerful ottomans dry by just sieging and counter sieging, walking through low supply territory, etc.
Having actually played a mutapa game, zimbabwe as a tag just confuses me. You don't get access to any new missions compared to rozwi or mutapa, and for the price of becoming an endgame tag, you're gaining worse ideas than either of the tags who would form it. Gaining mildly better economy modifiers than mutapa, but trading 10% dev cost for 15% construction cost, or getting significantly worse military ideas than rozwi, for a somewhat better economy, but losing your yearly inflation reduction from both, which is important because your economy in that region is specifically built around all the gold you're going to have. It's unfortunate, because I actually find that mission tree kinda fun, restoring your former glory as mutapa or getting freedom and expanding as butua into rozwi, both getting development from all buildings built with an early mission. imo they should have just given butua the rozwi missions outright, made rozwi have upgraded butua ideas, and make that the zimbabwe equivalent for their missions, which should also have ideas that are at least just a strict upgrade to mutapa.
@@LemonCake101 the mission modernize the army triggers the event "Modernization of the army" event id flavor_eth.48 which Change for western technology group Change for western units Lose 200 Military power Gain country modifier “Modernized Army” for 25 years, giving the following effect: +5% Discipline Before recent patches it used to be i think the only way to flip to western units iirc except maybe for like if u unbecome a horde with western culture group (idk how that works, im just guessing at this point)
Spain's unlockable unique Tier-1 reform is very good. Accepting this via the mission also overrides otherwise locked reforms. The big advantage of the Papal State is twofold: Good chance of being the curia controller though not guaranteed, and permaclaims on two of three end nodes. It has only a handful of permanent mission buffs. If you go Religious-Influence, you will never have trouble with vassal loyalty. You will spend your prestige placating vassals. Not disagreeing, though. Spain is a victim of power creep, as is the Papal State. It needs a much more robust RP mission tree. I hope it's included in the Italian region update this next DLC.
Another thing that brings Australia down is that their Ideas are worse than many (if not all) native ideas. So as a native it's just no reason to form it since it would be better to form one of the SEA nations. If it wasn't an endtag it would be fine, just keep your old ideas and get claims on all of Australia, but since it's an endtag it is... just... REALLY bad.
loved this video and many of your other ones idk if they patched this but samurai regiments cost double the manpower to replenish so while they're super strong they drain your manpower a lot
@BobbiusRossius I would definitely take most daimyo ideas over Japan’s but Japan has solid ideas. It really depends on what type of game you’re going for
Something fun you can do with andalusia is form Andalusia as... Castile! Yes, there is no checksum that prevents the Reconquister from Re-reconquisting himself! You can get the sweet bonuses from Castile's insane OP mission tree, PU half of Europe, then flip to Sunni and form Andalusia for that sweet 15% CCR (though, if you were trying to be a sweaty minmaxer it is far superior to form something else or just continue to Spain)
Man I dunno about ethiopia and aksum. Ethiopia is one of the rare cases that can actually flip you to western tech group, and combined with later getting aksum's really solid manpower modifiers I think there's at least something to be said for them.
That's fair, the placements revealed my ignorance on the Aksum eventual 50% max manpower, and the Ethiopian Westernization. I think they are pretty neat for sure, and I can see the argument to bump them up for sure.
You can form Engalnd, don't take the decision to form Angevian Empire, do the 5% admin efficiency mission and form something else, so it's not 100% fair to count them having that as unique
i formed the mongol empire once and it disappointed me so much, i deleted the safe xd i started as the great horde, failed the golden horde achievement by a few years and then i got disappointed, because mongol isn't/wasn't as fun as i thought. i think that was a few weeks before the patch released, where pdx decided you aren't allowed to convert territory anymore. (also i didn't like the map colour)
Didnt finish the video yet, but if you put byz below S, then it means you clearly havent done a orthodox-byz -> catholic-byz hre emperor with revoke privilegia -> back to orthodox-byz plus abusing the pronoiar system due to increased force limit -> roman empire -> hre campaign. KoK Byz might as well have been designed to abuse the HRE mechanics. It just meshes too well with the centralized path.
I mean Byzantium is good but every tag can do HRE revoke shanigans. The actual best abuser for that weirdly is probably Andalusia, due to the 100% vassal FL contribution. That’s not really a Byz ability, it’s an HRE is OP moment.
Because of byzs pretender rebels mechanic you can use it to get 10 extra imperial authority every 2-3 years by letting the pretender take the throne. This way you can easily revoke almost as fast as austria (as in before 1530s). Byz also gets pronoiars, and the number of them you can get is dependent on FL (force limit), with 1 pronoiar per 100 FL. If you revoke, you can easily get 1M FL halfway through the age of reformation. Meaning you can get 2 base plus 10 from FL, in other words 12 pronoiars. If you see and small QQ/mamluks/timurids/transoxiana/ottomans/ming/oirat/kazakh/other tags with lot of reconquerable cores, then vassalize them to turn them into pronoiars. Since you can just inherit pronoiars for free (no diploslot or diplomatic required), do you see how this subject type can be abused? You can basically use the cores of those subjects to reconquer and freely integrate all of the middle east in like 3-4 wars. Assuming ming still has cores remaining after the mingsplosion, you can reconquer and freely all of china in like 2 or 3 wars. You can do the same thing with Japan/west africa/east Africa regions.
@@sasi5841 The game is basically over once you revoke. What exactly is your point? ANY nation that can revoke and goes for revoke is S-tier then? All the stuff you talk about in your 2nd comment also only matters if you want to go for a One Tag, as any normal World Conquest is basically over once you revoke the priviledge.
@@sasi5841 So I believe the byz pretenders IA exploit got patched, but that was a fun one for sure. Yeah, if you go back to release 1.36 technically that is OP for abusing a fast revoke, but you can honestly also say that about a myriad of other fast revoke methods too.
I would argue that PWSCR is one of the big 3 modifiers for a blobbing SP campaign (and arguably the single best one), and that alone puts Aksum into B-tier for we. You could go for some whacky peace deals with Aksum + Malta Forts + Diplo Ideas + Revolutionary CBs + Imperial Principle. No CCR or Administrative Efficiency stings, but as long as you're Coptic you get 10% CCR from your religion at least. For Andalusia, if you start as Morocco first you can pick up a permanent 2.5% Discipline bonus from their missions first before forming Andalusia. As for the Angevins ... their name puts it in the F tier. No government types in the country name. Arabia is neat if you can form it before tech 20, but if not ... just form Rum or Persia or Mughals. Byzantium ... hear me out: Muscovy (for the 15% CCR event) into Byzantium (for 25% CCR) taking Admin Ideas (another 25% CCR) and lategame becoming a revolutionary republic with Three Social Classes (-10% CCR). The easiest way to get sub-10 month cores and revolutionary CBs at the same time. Personally, I like the LPC better than the PLC. You still get Poland for semi-free (just have to eat the AE for the PU), but also can do the Lithuanian missions before the Polish ones. Meaning you get a Commonwealth that also has a PU over Muscovy/Russia. You also bypass all the Sejm nonsense. That's a consolidation of eastern Europe the PLC just can't quite replicate. In my opinion the PLC also goes a bit too far into the military, the LPC is a bit more balanced which I prefer. For Germany, I feel the ability for the Teutons to form Germany at Tech 10 should be mentioned. That's just absolutely bonkers OP. The MP GB grindset: Give up European land, pick Naval and/or Maritime, make all the money in the world while financing the idiots fighting each other on the mainland with all that excess money you are making so that you can take the stuff you want in peace as nobody can touch your mainland. Wait, that's just historical Britain. The problem with Hindustan is that at least in SP Indian Muslims except the Mughals (and even then...) are borderline unviable. All those great Hindu monuments are too juicy to just give up on. And for SP Hindustani ideas are just not that great, that Indian trade node setup does not lend itself to playing tall. Bahmanis -> Deccan -> Hindustan can be decent, but that's waiting on a tech 20 formable when any Indian major can unify the subcontinent a century earlier. And good lord are Bahmani ideas a stinker. The HRE is F-tier. The vassal swarm is infinitely better. There's some fringe cases where uniting the HRE is worthwhile, but those are just that: fringe cases. Italy, one of the saddest victims of the powercreep of recent expansions. But I don't mind, I hate Italys idea set. For reference, a few years ago Italys ideas made it an S-tier tag. Lotharingia is probably the biggest victim of the recent powercreep. Sure, it might be fine to do so as Lorraine, but as Burgundy your first decades are basically spent replacing France, and forming France is just so much better than forming Lotharingia. Back in Emperor Lotharingia was actually great because it was one of the few ways to get early CCR in Christian Europe while starting from a powerful position. But with Domination France got -10% CCR itself and has just a lot more going for it. And the thing is, that idea set could be easily retooled into something more unique. Give Lotharingia some IA and other ways to make becoming the emperor a good choice, and have forming France as Burgundy auto-choose the kill the HRE path. The Rozwi can't be the Prussia of Africa ... because the Zulu are. Rum actually has more CCR than the Ottomans. It also gets an unique government reform with 10% CCR and -5% warscore cost. But otherwise, yeah, it's just the Ottomans in blue. And why form a tag that is essentially the Ottomans when you could just start as the Ottomans? I disagree with Siberian Frontiers being completely broken. Siberia is not worth the government cap to hold it, making Siberian Frontiers a literal nothing idea. Also trying to maintain Russia's forcelimit with holding the worst land in Eurasia and no economic bonuses to be found is a pain. (Admittedly I don't own Domination, so most of the recent brokenness doesn't apply to me.) That's not how the cavalry fire from Scandinavian mission works. it increases the Fire Damage of cavalry by 0.5. For reference, the maximum fire damage cavalry reaches is 1.0 starting at mil tech 22. So Scandinavias 0.5 cavalry fire essentially reads as +50% cavalry fire damage. That's why Siams cavalry is so absolutely busted as well. What I really like about Spain is that it fixes a problem that many formable tags have. A Germany game plays mostly the same no matter if it's formed from Austria or Dithmarschen. A Russia game plays the same no matter if it was formed by Muscovy or Novgorod of Odoyev. Castile-formed Spain and Aragon-formed Spain play very differently though, which is why Iberian campaigns are some of my favourites. And +1 artillery fire is a simply cracked bonus.
Great writeup, I would like to say I am aware of how the cav fire works, but even when you phrase it as a '50% damage increase' its in the fire phase for cav so while good I find it isn't exactly on par with some of the other broken stuff available.
It really not making any sense that Australia is an end game tag. I always had this idea of a Mamluks camping where I go colonial and just lose everything in egypt to Ottomans and then exile myself to Australia and form australia and then bulid my nation to retake the motherland form turks. Something like third odyssey but for the Mamluks. Well, that's not gonna happen.
I think Lotharingia is completely overpowered, due to the fact that it is one of the end game tags formed via pop up window instead of a decision, meaning you can form a whopping 2 endgame tags in a row. So this could look like clicking the event, holding it at the side of the menu while you form France as Burgundy and just click off all the french missions in the meantime. Unironically, this oversight is what makes Lotharingia an S tier as it would otherwise be just a worse France with extra steps. It's also at a unique position since Burgundy is a gateway for many christian opm and other irrelevant starting tags, due to the fact that anybody can gun for the inheritance and re release themself as Burgundy, giving GP levels of dev immediately at game start and amazing chances to revoke.
the feeling of a getting a fre 200 monarch point dev click while also getting 50 free diplo points is worth every rebel you have to put down to form eranshahr
Not that this is a complaint. But. If you play as milian to form Italy then you can obtain basically everything that the other major candidate's to form Italy can have (note that I'm excluding nations like Aragon that require a culture shift to become Italy at all, in addition to nations like Venice and genoa that don't have a way to be formed). To start with. Milan has the unique republic option of the Ambrosian republic. With a culture shift Milan can become Sardinia-piedmont for its goods produced and admin efficiently (surprisingly you don't need to be a monarchy to form Sardinia-piedmont, at least according to the wiki) and it's among the quickest options milan has. Sardinia-piedmont can form Tuscany via culture shift for its free diplomat and or ideas (it's the second fastest to culture shift as milian, however if you prioritize Tuscany it is slightly quicker to do it's missions). Lastly you can become 2 sicilies for its tolerance of the true Faith (it's probably the one that will take longest to culture shift to because of Aragon. And if not Aragon then castle because of the Iberian wedding, and if not then because of Naples getting unrealistic allys). the choice of national ideas is up to the player however the Ambrosian republic is exclusive to milian and milian isn't a formable (and even then you still have to choose to be that republic in a disaster that either happens early in the game or mostlikely never. and you usually at least get close to bankruptcy at least once because of the disaster if you don't plan things well enough, also you will tend to be out of manpower most of the very early game unless you play tall/very patently) assuming you make it to that point, you could easily be at least a significant early to mid-game threat to Spain and the ottomans while being an early challenge for France
Yuan S tier for those bonkers ideas honestly, 25% core cost, 5% adm efficiency, and gov cap is wild. Scandinavia has one of the most overpowered idea sets in the game and IMO is also s tier, good missions, good military, good blobbing, good tall ideas, and even good navally. Also Russia technically has higher CCR than Mughals. 30% CCR from modifier and idea set, but they also get an extra 10% from maxed out govt reform. Mughals CCR caps out at 35% but Russia slightly edges it out at 40% at the cost of perma claims. Aforementioned govt reform at max power (Russian Empire) gives 10% dev cost on top of orthodox 10% dev cost which means playing tall is an alternative. Debatably you could place Russia above Mughals since Russia excels in both MP and SP
That is true, I remember hitting the Cap pretty easily as Russia for CCR. I mean Russia is S tier for sure, its so strong on current patch. Yeah in fairness I think I was a bit harsh towards Yuan, I just find them lacking uniqueness, they are basically 'another Horde north of China' and theres a lot of tags that do that.
@@LemonCake101 Oirat to Yuan is faster than Manchu to Qing, also Yuan military ideas perfectly fit the horde playstyle even without discipline. I'd say yuan is comparable to germany at the very least considering they have a similar idea set. I'd probably say yuan is S tier personal opinions aside as being of the best formables for WC. I think the horde to china formables are pretty powerful either way you go about it, you can spend 120 years of the game in a golden age thanks to qing missions and they still pack a punch military since you can get 20% ica from harmonising shinto and clicking the enlist officer corps mechanic. But I don't think anyone actually becomes celestial empire when they form yuan for a wc since it is better to just conquer ming
I mean you can play as Portugal and "form" Brasil through annexing your Brazilian colony which has the benefits of not having to fight an independence war or abandoning your European provinces Edit: although this does require a foreign country to occupy mainland Portugal to be able to click the decision Edit2: basically you keep Portuguese missions if I am correct so you not losing much although you do not get perm claims on Brasil colonial region when you form Brasil this way
For all the updates to Nations and Mission Trees Paradox has done, it surprises me they have never bothered updating the Formable Colonial Nations, they are all pretty shit. And the crazy thing is that non-end tag nations like Texas are much better. They seriously need to update them. Either give them really strong ideas (since they only pop up after the mid 1600's) or interesting Mission Trees that incentivizes the player to Sunset Invasion Europe. Which can be quite fun and challenging.
It's such a shame that countries such as Aksum, if not formed by Ethiopia, doesn't get unique missions. Hell, even Australia and Canada could at least have a few missions like U.S.One thing that Zimbabwe also has going for it, is the development gain from buildings, which is a really strong buff and unique by itself, perhaps bumping it a tier
Germany has two problems. One is that its unlocked way too late. And the only way around that is the teuton start. So Teutons are almost a must pick for a germany campaign while all other medium german tags have to discover that they own all of Germany far too late. And second is the mission tree (while strong) is very outdated. Its the old fashioned "get perma claims, conquer them, get more perma claims etc". Many other big endgame tags got amazing new flavourful missions but Germany seems to be stuck with the old stuff forever with EU5 on the horizon. Also the prussian government types are a pain for playing even somewhat wide.
True, but Admin Efficiency in missions, as well as 5% in ideas is hard to overstate, and what I find it lacks in flavor it makes up for with brute force. Very German to be honest!
@@LemonCake101 didn’t realize that would happen. I just said WC because you would need every province to max out GPT. I was thinking like tag switching between countries for maximum money modifiers etc.. but if you hit a stack overflow moment before then, then I guess it’s moot Edit: maybe a better idea is a “highest gold per turn of all time by 1600 challenge”
20:32 I would agree with you on this had they not cuck literally 3/4 of the mission tree if you dont form Poland I was so pissed when doing an Austria into many tag switch into High American HRE run because I thought i could milk Poland's branching mission tree
@@Felix-ix7ic The way he talked about it, it sounds more like only talking about the tag itself. 35:30 he doesnt rate the HRE mechanics, how strong revoking the priviledge is or anything like that.
For sure, if you are building around that specifically, but overall... not enough to get it out of D tier, sorry, the competition with the other endtags is just too tough in my opinion.
I gave it two campaigns in fairness, but there are just pretty much better options all around, and the Pope gets an extra negative from the fact you can't form it either, so you have to start as them too.
I am currently doing a Oman-Yemen-Arabia game and man Arabia is godam amazing endtag with the missionaryis I dont even need religus ideas to spread the Ibadi faith
Wait, isn't Angevian pronounced with a J, like in Anjou? I would use the hard "g" in Magisterium and a "j" in Angevian, you must have it backwards! (non-native speaker btw)
Definitely a soft J in Angevin AND in Magisterium. All the Magi- words are soft J -- magi, magic, magicka, etc.; magus is hard G because it's the ancient Greek root.
@@doudline2662 But if Magisterium's main language wasn't primarily based on English but on German or something more directly descendant from Latin ljke Italian - which I always assumed it was - they would use the hard g version to call themselves, no? And then the English translation wouldn't have a different set of letters to differentiate that?
@@doudline2662Also I'm pretty sure magus and magicka have the same root which is greek? And it got, like, deformed, if you will, over the centuries, in most words but not all?
@@alexanderabramov2719 According to Google: Magush (singular, Old Persian) -> Mágos (singular, Ancient Greek) -> Magus (singular, Latin) -> Magus (singular, English and Latin languages) -> Magi (plural).
It was likely a response to a developer multiplayer game where one made Ottomans turn into Georgia and last Byzantium in 2018. Then 1.26 and Dharma released with the change.
You forgot to mention that Mughals also give you access to the Indian Sultanate / Sharifate T1 reforms (if you didn't take broken ass Egypt Gov T1 before forming Mughals) and as such you get you a ton of Manpower & +5% CCR as well at the press of a button. So by default, they almost immediatelly reach 70% CCR!
@@LemonCake101 I personally find The Caliphate to be more of a Reward T1 than a tool I can actually make use of. Do you like it better than Egypt Mughals for the Western Units?
@@gabrieljoseozanan6989 I mean I did it a while back before Egypt had Western units, I basically formed Mughals then ignored India and beelined the provinces needed to form it, so I got it quite early.
@@LemonCake101 Very interesting, I didn't know Mughals wasn't an End-Game tag back then! My strat as Timurids was to immediatelly advance on Hormuz / Oman / Yemen then fight Mamluks when Ottos went for them to seize the Sina & red sea provinces. So when Ottos turned them into an Eyalet, I called on Poland, declared on Ottos & co-belligerated Egypt, then proceeded to separate Egypt at 100% & white peace Ottos, forming Mamluks after the war. And then, when Ottos annexed Egypt, I formed Egypt myself via the mission, gaining cores in all former Mamluks land, which in the last game went from Fezzan to Anatolia! From that point on, it was just a question of Reconquesting it all from Ottos in a few wars, then go all on the Indians to form Mughals after grabbing all the goodies Egypt had to offer.
@@gabrieljoseozanan6989 Sounds like a good plan, I would grab the Mughal formable ASAP for the CCR personally, and then go to the Ottomans, but yes fighting the Ottomans early is the play.
Yuan does gets manchu banners and its ideas are far better than qing thing it lacks is a good mission tree. Also if you form yuan after destroying mandate you keep your horde government
@BobbiusRossius honestly debatable for sure, but they are unique and you can play around with them hence they are a +1 for ‘content’. Not everything needs to be insane for it to be worth it.
@@LemonCake101yup. I have complained in the forums about PLC and Lotharingia. Like why do these tags have worse ideas than the tags that form them makes no sense. But they did it again with persia so no point complaining i guess they don't care. Or they find it to be funny or i don't know, can't understand it. Makes no sense to me.
@@xgreedogreed4236 could also be a value difference, with the idea being that +1 admin point is more valuable then morale. Which in SP, it probably is.
Whilst it may have been in the context of end tags, I have to disagree with the statement that the US is better than other colonial nations. Texas has arguably better ideas as well as not taking penalties for heretic/heathen provinces.
France can get Military Hegemon absurdly early if it makes client states in Germany---(Influence/Mercenary policy)---which means an early dismantle which mean super-high dev. very early. It can get so powerful so quickly that you'll run out of rivals unless you deliberately keep them alive, and as France you do not want Britain or Spain alive except maybe as your subject.
I did have them in my notes for the video in fairness, I guess its something to consider, its just the tier list itself takes up 80% of the screen so putting things on top can kind of take away space I don't have if that makes sense.
@@LemonCake101 The only problem is that Oirat might be hostile to you, since you have his core province, so he probably won't support your independence war, which means you have to face the great Ming on your own.
@@LemonCake101 😂I hate to say this, but Ming is too weak. Unlike Yuan and Qing, the missions and ideas of Ming is totally nothing. Core creation? No. Land morale? No. Administrative efficiency? Still no. I know all of these are for the balance, but...Although I'm a Chinese player, I still dislike to play as Ming.😂
This tierlist is flawed. How could you create a endtag tierlist that does not take into cosideration map color of the end tag. This is the most important thing in my map painting game.
Oh no, now I have to remake it!
Sardinia-Piedmont S+ tier.
@@doudline2662 Not an endtag too!
Ilkhanate S tier?
In one of my games, when ottamans were not end game tag, I formed rum as ottamans for this reason. Better color
Forming Lotharingia as Burgundy? Yawn. Forming Lotharingia as Lorraine? REAL SHIT
lorraine is one of the most fun minor tags without a unique mission tree fr
You have a point, but I am going to say 99% of people, myself included, did is as Burgundy.
@@LemonCake101ooga hyuuuga
I've never had a Burgundy campaign yet, but my Lorraine campaign was super fun. I love Lotharingia
Since Lorraine doesn't have a culture requirement to form Lotharingia you can also get the Mongol mission tree on top if your primary culture is one of the eligible Altaic cultures.
I love tier lists, if only they could be applied to human society
This does not bode well for the culture groups tier list in the future
@@LemonCake101 a Culture Group video would be a Banger.
last time people did a human tier list a lot of people got angry at Karl marx for only including two tiers
@@YakubMyBeloved I heard this painter fellow made a list with a lot more tiers but people got really upset about where they got put on it
@@LemonCake101 Serbian S-tier? :p
France was such a strong non-endtag country before the patch
It was always an endtag: I don't know why people assumed it wasn't one before.
@@LemonCake101 Wait I thought it wasn’t until Domination. You used to be able to do some curse stuff, eg form England as France
@@mustapha_cc8830 I mean I will have to double check in fairness, but I was operating under that assumption, because I had so many people on the Eu4 discord say oh I am France why can't I form x, and having to be told its an endtag.
Ok it wasn't a lot of people, but enough for me to remember it!
@@LemonCake101 I vaguely remember an exploit involving switching between England and France repeatedly to cheese Imperial Authority where forming one removed provinces from the empire, the player added them back when Emperor for province IA (pre-rework), lost an election, and switched tag to reset the cycle. Can't find a video though.
There was also the Grandest Lan where Arumba was Provence and Florryworry formed Florence ----> France ---> Italy, then handed the provinces back so both of them had French ideas, back in the days of 20% Morale.
Forming Persia then forming Eranshahr lets you keep the better Persian ideas. Don’t know if that makes them better or worse but it is probably the best way to min max
In my Persia campaign I just wanted the map color since I was Zoro. If I wasn’t Zoro wouldn’t have formed it.
Kept the Persian ideas
For sure, and I would recommend you do that personally.
Also dunno if its possible depending on how long you want to wait but waiting to click the bonus age ability for dev might also be really nice, planning on doing that with ardabyl in my next run
The longest end game tag chain for achievement-eligible games I could find was (Crusader Teutons) -> Ethiopia -> Aksum -> Mongol Empire (requires Holy Horde government from Crusader Teutons) -> Rome -> Holy Rome (requires monarchy) for five total. Managing Imperial Authority in the late game to unite the HRE would be painful.
Of course it’s the bloody Teutons, lions of the north is balanced and realistic.
-The wiki states that for Mongol Empire you cant be an endgame tag EXCEPT Yuan, so i doubt this is possible.-
@@mrmonokel2335 yes if ı remember correctly ı did someting similar and lost the form mongol empire decision but it was an old version
I believe you can also add Fiji to the end of that, Fiji because leviathan moment doesn't have the 'was not an endtag' requirement in the game code.
@@LemonCake101 Wait. Aotearoa, Hawaii, and Viti are end-game tags? If I read the wiki correctly, you could form them after Aksum but before the HRE.
The eu4 Canada flag is inspired by the original Canadian flag, which had the three conjoined maple leaves. Also spain gets an obscene amount of PUs, imo it's A
Thank God they changed the original Canada flag.
As for the PU's, yeah true the England and Austria ones are quite nice. Maybe I was a touch too harsh on them.
I don’t think you need to be spain as castille to get those missions
@@toreq1127 Yes, but I believe the Spanish missions expand on the Castile ones for sure, and Castile itself isn't exactly formable.
@BobbiusRossius I always love the statements of 'you forgot' yes they have it, they also have curia all power cost, im not gonna list every buff every tag gets every time, it would be a terrible video ;)
But yeah for sure it helps, but I think Bohemia runs are more fun for that.
@BobbiusRossius I mean if its compared to all countries, anything above B goes into S, but I have to judge them with the context of the power of the other tags too.
I am a somewhat experienced player, and I still can't see how the Mughals is the best contender for a WC. I did my first WC as Oirat->Yuan->Mongol empire after a few failed attempts as the Mughals, and it seemed almost trivial in comparison.
Great video as always though!
Well, the best way to approach a topic like this is to best think 'what stops you getting a WC' if that issue is the enemy troops fighting back, you need more army quality. If that issue is rebels, you want either more manpower to fight them, or more unrest reduction. If that issue is 'running out of time' you need to be either more aggressive so back to needing more troops/rebel suppression or more ways to generate Admin (so money for advisors) and CCR.
Fundamentally my argument boils down to the fact that the Mughals cover by far the most issues on the list above. If your limitations are best lifted by Hordes, then by all means use Hordes. Pick the right tool for the job.
It's a debatable topic but basically what he said. It's up to what you're good at more managing than anything, Mughals are just generally the easiest because they cover more of the bases needed to get the WC
@@LemonCake101 If you want 'a funny', after forming Mughals, jump straight into china through the himalayan nations and rebel switch to Confucian. Now you turned both culture and religion into minor buffs.
Ok but consider for a moment that commonwealth is the only tag in the game that lets you do a sheep genocide WC, who turns all wool provinces into cloth provinces
I will admit I have considered that, a 'no wool run'. Do a true one tag as the Commonwealth, and live in a cloth free environment.
The pope being on the same level as colonial tags is crazy tbh
He just limits you so much, for so little.
Ideas are bad by Europe standards. Almost no missions or events. Only things they have going for them is Naples vassalization CB (if you're lucky) + frequent Curia Controller but it's so hard to excommunicate these days with Buy Indulgences... you can't even pull it off against your rivals lol.
It has a good start to unite italy but thats it
@@aluminiumknight4038 yeah, I mean Florence has an arguably better start in fairness.
I would put Commonwealth at least in the A tear due to their permanent modifiers you can get when playing as Lithuania or Poland and their missions are really fun. Also suggestion for future tier lists, when talking add nations ideas and maybe even missions if possible, would make it more interesting to listen to.
I mean again, most of the fun modifiers can be gotten with Poland. As for the ideas on screen, I can see the argument for it, I am just concerned with how much space the tier list already takes up. I have almost a 'system' now of the tier list videos being just the tier list themselves with me discussing the targets.
@@LemonCake101 i respect that
@@Ugapiku thanks for understanding!
Never thought about doing an Alaska campaign that could be interesting. Go half into Asia, Go half into North America. Then take it from there.
The Dev cost is nice, your are not an endtag, and you even pick up some Naval buffs. Go for it!
I have actually played a Rozwi Empire game, wasnt really anything special, and that is why i only did it once, it really doesn't deserve being an end game tag. But at least there is an achievment.
Ah, their is an achievement for it. Good to know someone's played it!
You can get the royal fires as normal Zoro Persia btw, so imo Eranshahr is B-tear (weaker ideas), and Persia is S-tier, since you can get all of the Eranshahr buffs anyway
My decision behind keeping Eranshahr in S is you can pretty trivially do all that and keep Persian ideas.
@@LemonCake101 fair enough, so basically just purple Persia with a cooler name?)))
@@nikolaitregouet Well, and the Zoroastrian mechanics! But yes.
I feel like GB should be atleast A, keep in mind it's mission tree is very strong and it's a tag that has HUGE money making potential, both by trade and production. Also it bas8cally gets +5discipline via missions, the discipline only affects marines, you also get rid of the +10shock, but in my last GB campaign my main armies were only marines so I'd say that counts.
I mean if you build around marines specifically, sure I believe GB is the best tag for that, and in fairness they have enough sailor buffs to make that viable too. I don't think its enough to nock them up though, the competition here is pretty stiff.
GB’s India shenanigans are insane
@@jakedavidheilemann1208 A Student enjoyer I see, for sure!
Korea into japan is funny, love my Croatia/Dalmatia and Khmer/Siam
Im cooked for bad starts (but the dev cost 🔥)
Korea is certainly up there for the dev cost/dev build, for sure!
If you want to debate me on discord about the placements, feel free to do it here: discord.gg/mKYUGQaKk4
Babe wake up, new Lemon Cake just dropped
I do worry this may send some to sleep though
18:32 As a Pole I am always confused when I hear word "sejm" pronounced the way you did, because you pronounce it noway near how it is pronounced. And I know that so many people do the same mistake, but it is so far off that I cannot register it as common misspelling and each time I spend too long to admit just to realize what somebody is talking about. For future reference Polish word "sejm" is pronounced almost identical to English word "same".
As for the PLC being an end-tag I always though that PLC should have some kind of mini-Mughal mechanics. Because while everybody know about Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth not many are aware that Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth almost happened and Polish-Lithuanian-Muscovite Commonwealth was also briefly proposed. Also I always though that it would be cool if Sarmatia was a formable tag, thing "the final form of PLC", when you can form it only if you have low absolutism, high nobility loyalty, you are Catholic and you have blob enough.
Fair enough, the issue is the majority of my audience is English speaking, at least according to UA-cam analytics, so if I was to pronounce it as 'same' I feel like they would get confused instead. Its a weird situation with no real winners unfortunately. A similar thing is Wallachia, pronounced as Wa-lay-chi-a that makes sense in English, but the real pronoun cation is nothing like that, and also most people know it by the wrong pronunciation.
It could be an interesting extension for the Commonwealth for sure, unfortunetly at the moment I believe it is just assumed that the area has 'enough' content. I could be wrong though, but I won't be too optimistic.
Concerning the Mongol Empire: this might be a known thing, I just don’t know why this happens to me… in my Oirat > Yuan > Mongol Empire runs, once I get to form Yuan and I can raise banners in my Sino-Altaic provinces, I start culture converting other provinces to be able to raise more banners, as one does. While I am Yuan, I do not have to convert the religion of a province to tengri before being able to convert its culture. However, as soon as I become the Mongol Empire, I must convert the religion of a province before I convert its culture. Has anyone else noticed this?
Well, religious conversion for Tengri nations is weird: say you take Confucian as your religion, that is now your 'Primary' and hence you can do things usually only reserved for primary religious provinces, like culture convert. I believe that may have something to do with it? But there is very little I can do without access to the save, only make educated guesses.
51:55 Ottomans can westernize too, but by the you can do it a good player would already wc, and a bad one wouldn't go through the disasters anyway...
Oh I forgot about that too: they are not a formable unlike Russia hence I usually don't have them in mind when thinking 'I need to Westernize'.
The Decadence disaster isn't actually too bad since they nerfed the requirements for succeeding, the decadence bar itself is god awful and the process to get it just wastes your time and by the time you get it, you'd just be better off trying to conquer as normal since the maluses from having 100% decadence make the playthrough obnoxious. Also the mana sink for trying to get anatolia and balkans to being prosperous again is also just kind of horrible
lemon missing that aksum with combining the mission tree has 50% max manpower.
Yup, that I did miss :(
East Africa in general got nerfed into the ground because certain people threw fits that non-European (and especially African) nations had strong ideas and monuments.
Paradox is weird with what they nerf. Hussite got hard nerfs because people complained when it wasn’t that strong, and much more broken stuff stays in this game to this day, like uncolonizing provinces
Ethiopia/Aksum is actually underrated. Specifically the Cawa units. They have -50% land attrition, combine that with either quantity or defensive ideas, plus some well placed forts, and you can bleed even powerful ottomans dry by just sieging and counter sieging, walking through low supply territory, etc.
True, attrition received is actually a pretty underrated modifier overall.
Having actually played a mutapa game, zimbabwe as a tag just confuses me. You don't get access to any new missions compared to rozwi or mutapa, and for the price of becoming an endgame tag, you're gaining worse ideas than either of the tags who would form it. Gaining mildly better economy modifiers than mutapa, but trading 10% dev cost for 15% construction cost, or getting significantly worse military ideas than rozwi, for a somewhat better economy, but losing your yearly inflation reduction from both, which is important because your economy in that region is specifically built around all the gold you're going to have. It's unfortunate, because I actually find that mission tree kinda fun, restoring your former glory as mutapa or getting freedom and expanding as butua into rozwi, both getting development from all buildings built with an early mission. imo they should have just given butua the rozwi missions outright, made rozwi have upgraded butua ideas, and make that the zimbabwe equivalent for their missions, which should also have ideas that are at least just a strict upgrade to mutapa.
I played Mutapa too, and yes Zimbabwe is quite... sad. Good writeup!
The Ethiopian mission tree lets to flip to western tech group western units
Does it? How did I miss that...
@@LemonCake101 the mission modernize the army triggers the event "Modernization of the army" event id flavor_eth.48 which
Change for western technology group
Change for western units
Lose 200 Military power
Gain country modifier “Modernized Army” for 25 years, giving the following effect:
+5% Discipline
Before recent patches it used to be i think the only way to flip to western units iirc except maybe for like if u unbecome a horde with western culture group (idk how that works, im just guessing at this point)
@@jansatamme6521 Fair enough, I can't believe I forgot that!
Spain's unlockable unique Tier-1 reform is very good. Accepting this via the mission also overrides otherwise locked reforms.
The big advantage of the Papal State is twofold: Good chance of being the curia controller though not guaranteed, and permaclaims on two of three end nodes. It has only a handful of permanent mission buffs. If you go Religious-Influence, you will never have trouble with vassal loyalty. You will spend your prestige placating vassals.
Not disagreeing, though. Spain is a victim of power creep, as is the Papal State. It needs a much more robust RP mission tree. I hope it's included in the Italian region update this next DLC.
I am not sure Pope will get a change, but I can only hope.
Another thing that brings Australia down is that their Ideas are worse than many (if not all) native ideas. So as a native it's just no reason to form it since it would be better to form one of the SEA nations. If it wasn't an endtag it would be fine, just keep your old ideas and get claims on all of Australia, but since it's an endtag it is... just... REALLY bad.
Oh for sure, as a middle tag or something it would just be a bad decision, but as an endtag it is genuinely crippling.
loved this video and many of your other ones idk if they patched this but samurai regiments cost double the manpower to replenish so while they're super strong they drain your manpower a lot
@BobbiusRossius I would definitely take most daimyo ideas over Japan’s but Japan has solid ideas. It really depends on what type of game you’re going for
Oh fair, I did miss that. That’s a pretty interesting way to balance them, but that doesn’t make them worse on the battlefield either!
@@LemonCake101 apparently it was patched~ yeah regardless their super strong add the extra land fire damage later on too
@TripleZHacker fair enough, but yeah they have a pretty insane list of buffs regardless.
Something fun you can do with andalusia is form Andalusia as... Castile! Yes, there is no checksum that prevents the Reconquister from Re-reconquisting himself! You can get the sweet bonuses from Castile's insane OP mission tree, PU half of Europe, then flip to Sunni and form Andalusia for that sweet 15% CCR (though, if you were trying to be a sweaty minmaxer it is far superior to form something else or just continue to Spain)
Yup, it just seems wrong to do so. I also have seen Granada form Spain before, and that I think is the most cursed timeline.
Imo losing the HRE vassal swarm did atleast bare a mention as a downside for HRE
I guess so, forming the tag does remove that as a ‘feature’ after all.
Man I dunno about ethiopia and aksum. Ethiopia is one of the rare cases that can actually flip you to western tech group, and combined with later getting aksum's really solid manpower modifiers I think there's at least something to be said for them.
That's fair, the placements revealed my ignorance on the Aksum eventual 50% max manpower, and the Ethiopian Westernization. I think they are pretty neat for sure, and I can see the argument to bump them up for sure.
You can form Engalnd, don't take the decision to form Angevian Empire, do the 5% admin efficiency mission and form something else, so it's not 100% fair to count them having that as unique
True: that does nock that formable down a peg for sure, I wasn't aware.
@BobbiusRossius Ah fair, that is very true but starting to be 'exploit' territory
i formed the mongol empire once and it disappointed me so much, i deleted the safe xd i started as the great horde, failed the golden horde achievement by a few years and then i got disappointed, because mongol isn't/wasn't as fun as i thought.
i think that was a few weeks before the patch released, where pdx decided you aren't allowed to convert territory anymore.
(also i didn't like the map colour)
Didnt finish the video yet, but if you put byz below S, then it means you clearly havent done a
orthodox-byz -> catholic-byz hre emperor with revoke privilegia -> back to orthodox-byz plus abusing the pronoiar system due to increased force limit -> roman empire -> hre campaign.
KoK Byz might as well have been designed to abuse the HRE mechanics. It just meshes too well with the centralized path.
I mean Byzantium is good but every tag can do HRE revoke shanigans. The actual best abuser for that weirdly is probably Andalusia, due to the 100% vassal FL contribution.
That’s not really a Byz ability, it’s an HRE is OP moment.
Because of byzs pretender rebels mechanic you can use it to get 10 extra imperial authority every 2-3 years by letting the pretender take the throne. This way you can easily revoke almost as fast as austria (as in before 1530s). Byz also gets pronoiars, and the number of them you can get is dependent on FL (force limit), with 1 pronoiar per 100 FL. If you revoke, you can easily get 1M FL halfway through the age of reformation. Meaning you can get 2 base plus 10 from FL, in other words 12 pronoiars. If you see and small QQ/mamluks/timurids/transoxiana/ottomans/ming/oirat/kazakh/other tags with lot of reconquerable cores, then vassalize them to turn them into pronoiars. Since you can just inherit pronoiars for free (no diploslot or diplomatic required), do you see how this subject type can be abused? You can basically use the cores of those subjects to reconquer and freely integrate all of the middle east in like 3-4 wars. Assuming ming still has cores remaining after the mingsplosion, you can reconquer and freely all of china in like 2 or 3 wars. You can do the same thing with Japan/west africa/east Africa regions.
@@sasi5841 The game is basically over once you revoke. What exactly is your point? ANY nation that can revoke and goes for revoke is S-tier then?
All the stuff you talk about in your 2nd comment also only matters if you want to go for a One Tag, as any normal World Conquest is basically over once you revoke the priviledge.
@@sasi5841 So I believe the byz pretenders IA exploit got patched, but that was a fun one for sure. Yeah, if you go back to release 1.36 technically that is OP for abusing a fast revoke, but you can honestly also say that about a myriad of other fast revoke methods too.
I haven't watched the vid but Eranshahr is kinda insane for one faith and generally just a fun nation, tho ideas are super mid
For sure, just stick with Persian ideas when playing them.
@@LemonCake101 I think I'm gonna try a Manchu to Eranshahr one faith and keep Manchu ideas for the CCR. Feel like that should be a fun campaign
@@bassdasdwadsasdasw Go for it, good luck!
I would argue that PWSCR is one of the big 3 modifiers for a blobbing SP campaign (and arguably the single best one), and that alone puts Aksum into B-tier for we. You could go for some whacky peace deals with Aksum + Malta Forts + Diplo Ideas + Revolutionary CBs + Imperial Principle. No CCR or Administrative Efficiency stings, but as long as you're Coptic you get 10% CCR from your religion at least.
For Andalusia, if you start as Morocco first you can pick up a permanent 2.5% Discipline bonus from their missions first before forming Andalusia.
As for the Angevins ... their name puts it in the F tier. No government types in the country name.
Arabia is neat if you can form it before tech 20, but if not ... just form Rum or Persia or Mughals.
Byzantium ... hear me out: Muscovy (for the 15% CCR event) into Byzantium (for 25% CCR) taking Admin Ideas (another 25% CCR) and lategame becoming a revolutionary republic with Three Social Classes (-10% CCR). The easiest way to get sub-10 month cores and revolutionary CBs at the same time.
Personally, I like the LPC better than the PLC. You still get Poland for semi-free (just have to eat the AE for the PU), but also can do the Lithuanian missions before the Polish ones. Meaning you get a Commonwealth that also has a PU over Muscovy/Russia. You also bypass all the Sejm nonsense. That's a consolidation of eastern Europe the PLC just can't quite replicate. In my opinion the PLC also goes a bit too far into the military, the LPC is a bit more balanced which I prefer.
For Germany, I feel the ability for the Teutons to form Germany at Tech 10 should be mentioned. That's just absolutely bonkers OP.
The MP GB grindset: Give up European land, pick Naval and/or Maritime, make all the money in the world while financing the idiots fighting each other on the mainland with all that excess money you are making so that you can take the stuff you want in peace as nobody can touch your mainland. Wait, that's just historical Britain.
The problem with Hindustan is that at least in SP Indian Muslims except the Mughals (and even then...) are borderline unviable. All those great Hindu monuments are too juicy to just give up on. And for SP Hindustani ideas are just not that great, that Indian trade node setup does not lend itself to playing tall. Bahmanis -> Deccan -> Hindustan can be decent, but that's waiting on a tech 20 formable when any Indian major can unify the subcontinent a century earlier. And good lord are Bahmani ideas a stinker.
The HRE is F-tier. The vassal swarm is infinitely better. There's some fringe cases where uniting the HRE is worthwhile, but those are just that: fringe cases.
Italy, one of the saddest victims of the powercreep of recent expansions. But I don't mind, I hate Italys idea set. For reference, a few years ago Italys ideas made it an S-tier tag.
Lotharingia is probably the biggest victim of the recent powercreep. Sure, it might be fine to do so as Lorraine, but as Burgundy your first decades are basically spent replacing France, and forming France is just so much better than forming Lotharingia. Back in Emperor Lotharingia was actually great because it was one of the few ways to get early CCR in Christian Europe while starting from a powerful position. But with Domination France got -10% CCR itself and has just a lot more going for it. And the thing is, that idea set could be easily retooled into something more unique. Give Lotharingia some IA and other ways to make becoming the emperor a good choice, and have forming France as Burgundy auto-choose the kill the HRE path.
The Rozwi can't be the Prussia of Africa ... because the Zulu are.
Rum actually has more CCR than the Ottomans. It also gets an unique government reform with 10% CCR and -5% warscore cost. But otherwise, yeah, it's just the Ottomans in blue. And why form a tag that is essentially the Ottomans when you could just start as the Ottomans?
I disagree with Siberian Frontiers being completely broken. Siberia is not worth the government cap to hold it, making Siberian Frontiers a literal nothing idea. Also trying to maintain Russia's forcelimit with holding the worst land in Eurasia and no economic bonuses to be found is a pain. (Admittedly I don't own Domination, so most of the recent brokenness doesn't apply to me.)
That's not how the cavalry fire from Scandinavian mission works. it increases the Fire Damage of cavalry by 0.5. For reference, the maximum fire damage cavalry reaches is 1.0 starting at mil tech 22. So Scandinavias 0.5 cavalry fire essentially reads as +50% cavalry fire damage. That's why Siams cavalry is so absolutely busted as well.
What I really like about Spain is that it fixes a problem that many formable tags have. A Germany game plays mostly the same no matter if it's formed from Austria or Dithmarschen. A Russia game plays the same no matter if it was formed by Muscovy or Novgorod of Odoyev. Castile-formed Spain and Aragon-formed Spain play very differently though, which is why Iberian campaigns are some of my favourites. And +1 artillery fire is a simply cracked bonus.
Great writeup, I would like to say I am aware of how the cav fire works, but even when you phrase it as a '50% damage increase' its in the fire phase for cav so while good I find it isn't exactly on par with some of the other broken stuff available.
It really not making any sense that Australia is an end game tag. I always had this idea of a Mamluks camping where I go colonial and just lose everything in egypt to Ottomans and then exile myself to Australia and form australia and then bulid my nation to retake the motherland form turks. Something like third odyssey but for the Mamluks. Well, that's not gonna happen.
Take a shot every time he says, "With that being said" 😂 Great video, dude, keep it up ✌️
Oh no, I don't think people can afford that! Thanks for the support though!
I think nations like USA need more missions, although its late-game tag
Yeah, last time the USA got content was the pre-order bonus.
I think Lotharingia is completely overpowered, due to the fact that it is one of the end game tags formed via pop up window instead of a decision, meaning you can form a whopping 2 endgame tags in a row. So this could look like clicking the event, holding it at the side of the menu while you form France as Burgundy and just click off all the french missions in the meantime.
Unironically, this oversight is what makes Lotharingia an S tier as it would otherwise be just a worse France with extra steps. It's also at a unique position since Burgundy is a gateway for many christian opm and other irrelevant starting tags, due to the fact that anybody can gun for the inheritance and re release themself as Burgundy, giving GP levels of dev immediately at game start and amazing chances to revoke.
While true I do consider that an exploit and hence not counted
the feeling of a getting a fre 200 monarch point dev click while also getting 50 free diplo points is worth every rebel you have to put down to form eranshahr
You Forgot the Strongest Formble, Zimbabwe!
I have not, last country on the list! (they are in alphabetical order)
@@LemonCake101 But why is it Not S-Tier? They have the Second Strongest Idea Set.
@@sealking1775 no?
@@LemonCake101youre getting trolled
@@sasi5841 I have had worse takes presented unironically. Someone on reddit told me corruption is good because it reduces unrest.
Not that this is a complaint. But. If you play as milian to form Italy then you can obtain basically everything that the other major candidate's to form Italy can have (note that I'm excluding nations like Aragon that require a culture shift to become Italy at all, in addition to nations like Venice and genoa that don't have a way to be formed). To start with. Milan has the unique republic option of the Ambrosian republic. With a culture shift Milan can become Sardinia-piedmont for its goods produced and admin efficiently (surprisingly you don't need to be a monarchy to form Sardinia-piedmont, at least according to the wiki) and it's among the quickest options milan has. Sardinia-piedmont can form Tuscany via culture shift for its free diplomat and or ideas (it's the second fastest to culture shift as milian, however if you prioritize Tuscany it is slightly quicker to do it's missions). Lastly you can become 2 sicilies for its tolerance of the true Faith (it's probably the one that will take longest to culture shift to because of Aragon. And if not Aragon then castle because of the Iberian wedding, and if not then because of Naples getting unrealistic allys). the choice of national ideas is up to the player however the Ambrosian republic is exclusive to milian and milian isn't a formable (and even then you still have to choose to be that republic in a disaster that either happens early in the game or mostlikely never. and you usually at least get close to bankruptcy at least once because of the disaster if you don't plan things well enough, also you will tend to be out of manpower most of the very early game unless you play tall/very patently) assuming you make it to that point, you could easily be at least a significant early to mid-game threat to Spain and the ottomans while being an early challenge for France
Nah Ming is absolutely S tier, you can conquer most of the world as a pacifist!
True! Special Ming tier for Ming then.
Yuan S tier for those bonkers ideas honestly, 25% core cost, 5% adm efficiency, and gov cap is wild.
Scandinavia has one of the most overpowered idea sets in the game and IMO is also s tier, good missions, good military, good blobbing, good tall ideas, and even good navally.
Also Russia technically has higher CCR than Mughals. 30% CCR from modifier and idea set, but they also get an extra 10% from maxed out govt reform. Mughals CCR caps out at 35% but Russia slightly edges it out at 40% at the cost of perma claims. Aforementioned govt reform at max power (Russian Empire) gives 10% dev cost on top of orthodox 10% dev cost which means playing tall is an alternative. Debatably you could place Russia above Mughals since Russia excels in both MP and SP
That is true, I remember hitting the Cap pretty easily as Russia for CCR. I mean Russia is S tier for sure, its so strong on current patch.
Yeah in fairness I think I was a bit harsh towards Yuan, I just find them lacking uniqueness, they are basically 'another Horde north of China' and theres a lot of tags that do that.
@@LemonCake101 Oirat to Yuan is faster than Manchu to Qing, also Yuan military ideas perfectly fit the horde playstyle even without discipline.
I'd say yuan is comparable to germany at the very least considering they have a similar idea set. I'd probably say yuan is S tier personal opinions aside as being of the best formables for WC.
I think the horde to china formables are pretty powerful either way you go about it, you can spend 120 years of the game in a golden age thanks to qing missions and they still pack a punch military since you can get 20% ica from harmonising shinto and clicking the enlist officer corps mechanic. But I don't think anyone actually becomes celestial empire when they form yuan for a wc since it is better to just conquer ming
@@the90thhunter92 Yeah that's very fair, I guess I was rather harsh towards it.
Somebody has not moved capital to Japan & culture swapped as the pope and taken integrate the Sohei reform I see, batteru popu is indeed S tier!
... yeah no I am not doing that
51:48 Aksum or Ethiopia also has this, being the first tag in eu4 since the olden days of westernisation to westernise your tech
Great list!!
Thanks!
I mean you can play as Portugal and "form" Brasil through annexing your Brazilian colony which has the benefits of not having to fight an independence war or abandoning your European provinces
Edit: although this does require a foreign country to occupy mainland Portugal to be able to click the decision
Edit2: basically you keep Portuguese missions if I am correct so you not losing much although you do not get perm claims on Brasil colonial region when you form Brasil this way
True, but thats a lot of effort to get into an endtag for pretty much no real benefit.
I only disagree with one: Spain
Spain has the second or third best government reform in the game, the system of council.
It’s a great government for sure! I may have been a touch harsh on them, but they also have pretty stiff competition
For all the updates to Nations and Mission Trees Paradox has done, it surprises me they have never bothered updating the Formable Colonial Nations, they are all pretty shit.
And the crazy thing is that non-end tag nations like Texas are much better.
They seriously need to update them.
Either give them really strong ideas (since they only pop up after the mid 1600's) or interesting Mission Trees that incentivizes the player to Sunset Invasion Europe. Which can be quite fun and challenging.
For sure. It is a pretty well requested area too, with them even addressing in the latest dev diary how they are NOT doing that in this update cycle.
It's such a shame that countries such as Aksum, if not formed by Ethiopia, doesn't get unique missions. Hell, even Australia and Canada could at least have a few missions like U.S.One thing that Zimbabwe also has going for it, is the development gain from buildings, which is a really strong buff and unique by itself, perhaps bumping it a tier
Yeah, it definitely feels like a cosmetic tag in fairness, but that may be a point!
I will be making vegan lemon chiffon cake in your honor.
Woo, glad I could be an inspiration!
Calling the Mughals the "Mewghals" has big 'She's a catgirl in waifu universalis' energy.
Germany has two problems.
One is that its unlocked way too late. And the only way around that is the teuton start. So Teutons are almost a must pick for a germany campaign while all other medium german tags have to discover that they own all of Germany far too late.
And second is the mission tree (while strong) is very outdated. Its the old fashioned "get perma claims, conquer them, get more perma claims etc". Many other big endgame tags got amazing new flavourful missions but Germany seems to be stuck with the old stuff forever with EU5 on the horizon.
Also the prussian government types are a pain for playing even somewhat wide.
True, but Admin Efficiency in missions, as well as 5% in ideas is hard to overstate, and what I find it lacks in flavor it makes up for with brute force. Very German to be honest!
Fun fact Al-Andalusia gets an event where they get a 1 permament colonist for free I think it can fire for Granath to
Its nice for certain too, it is a colonial tag after all.
I was once playing as Tonga and encountered Granadan colonies in africa in the 1500s. They had no colonial ideas, so this explains it
@@aluminiumknight4038 Yup, its not that hard to get, it almost mirrors the +1 colonist Spain gets.
Mr Lemon, you should do a world conquest with sole intention of having the highest gold per turn possible at the end of the game
You kind of hit a stack overflow, and stack overflow WC's are already a category.
@@LemonCake101 didn’t realize that would happen. I just said WC because you would need every province to max out GPT. I was thinking like tag switching between countries for maximum money modifiers etc.. but if you hit a stack overflow moment before then, then I guess it’s moot
Edit: maybe a better idea is a “highest gold per turn of all time by 1600 challenge”
20:32 I would agree with you on this had they not cuck literally 3/4 of the mission tree if you dont form Poland
I was so pissed when doing an Austria into many tag switch into High American HRE run because I thought i could milk Poland's branching mission tree
No province tier list? Shame
Also which branch of France tree do you like
I don't think UA-cam supports over 24 hour long videos
@@LemonCake101they do. I'm still waiting for the province tier list. Do I gotta do it myself lemon? It womt be near as good
@@LemonCake101 ua-cam.com/video/56lkofpjOAs/v-deo.htmlsi=Tr1wQZT56kHX2Rx5
@@LemonCake101 ua-cam.com/video/56lkofpjOAs/v-deo.htmlsi=Tr1wQZT56kHX2Rx5
@@jeffpenner7083 you are welcome to go for it!
As someone who loves Colonial games, seeing my beloved Andalusia and Spain both ending up in B hurts lol
Sorry, had to be objective.
I find the HRE being S Tier poorly placed. Often, forming it is a downgrade from just revoking the privilegia
Unless you have a bunch of PUs/non-HRE subjects. Then forming HRE gives a special govept reform that is very helpful for integrating subjects.
...this is purely rating the tags. Nothing else.
@@mrmonokel2335No it isn't, he said Commonwealth ranks lower because it's better to just stay Poland.
@@Felix-ix7ic The way he talked about it, it sounds more like only talking about the tag itself.
35:30 he doesnt rate the HRE mechanics, how strong revoking the priviledge is or anything like that.
@@mrmonokel2335I got that impression as well. I edited my original comment because I watched more of the video and found an even better example.
if you know anything about Canadian history, us not having “heretic and heathen provinces give no penalties”… makes sense
But that would also apply to... pretty much every other colonial nation? Like Columbia isn't exactly known as a Bastion of Religious freedom.
I think the minimum autonomy in territories is really funny for the us who has the White House monument reducing state governing cost.
For sure, if you are building around that specifically, but overall... not enough to get it out of D tier, sorry, the competition with the other endtags is just too tough in my opinion.
@@LemonCake101 I mean it’s ironic that the country that is most easily able to state everything also gets bonuses to not stating everything
@@craigstephenson7676 Yeah, its a weird anti-synergy for sure.
I can tell haven't played Popeman much. It's actually great fun.
I gave it two campaigns in fairness, but there are just pretty much better options all around, and the Pope gets an extra negative from the fact you can't form it either, so you have to start as them too.
I have played roswi. Was pretty fun, colonised Brazil.
25:22 ? Iirc France was not an end tag before they become an end tag
But i guess i haven't played back when all of europe were end game tags
Canada is an OP nation, they have a special modifier: Geneva to-do list
We moving on from the Geneva Suggestion I see.
I am currently doing a Oman-Yemen-Arabia game and man Arabia is godam amazing endtag with the missionaryis I dont even need religus ideas to spread the Ibadi faith
Pretty much, but I would still suggest you take them!
Wait, isn't Angevian pronounced with a J, like in Anjou? I would use the hard "g" in Magisterium and a "j" in Angevian, you must have it backwards! (non-native speaker btw)
Oh no clue lmao I have only ever read the word, not heard it pronounced.
Definitely a soft J in Angevin AND in Magisterium. All the Magi- words are soft J -- magi, magic, magicka, etc.; magus is hard G because it's the ancient Greek root.
@@doudline2662 But if Magisterium's main language wasn't primarily based on English but on German or something more directly descendant from Latin ljke Italian - which I always assumed it was - they would use the hard g version to call themselves, no? And then the English translation wouldn't have a different set of letters to differentiate that?
@@doudline2662Also I'm pretty sure magus and magicka have the same root which is greek? And it got, like, deformed, if you will, over the centuries, in most words but not all?
@@alexanderabramov2719 According to Google: Magush (singular, Old Persian) -> Mágos (singular, Ancient Greek) -> Magus (singular, Latin) -> Magus (singular, English and Latin languages) -> Magi (plural).
The update that added the concept of an end tag was cringe, let people free form nations!
You can unlock unlimited nation forming, but that does disable ironman.
It was likely a response to a developer multiplayer game where one made Ottomans turn into Georgia and last Byzantium in 2018. Then 1.26 and Dharma released with the change.
@@elcazador3349 I mean Ming Mughals where a thing for a while too, and that was a monster for sure.
Minghals will never be forgotten, it lives on in our hearts
You forgot to mention that Mughals also give you access to the Indian Sultanate / Sharifate T1 reforms (if you didn't take broken ass Egypt Gov T1 before forming Mughals) and as such you get you a ton of Manpower & +5% CCR as well at the press of a button.
So by default, they almost immediatelly reach 70% CCR!
I mean personally I am a fan of caliphate Mughals, so go unite Islam and enjoy that tier one reform, and a very neat one faith too!
@@LemonCake101 I personally find The Caliphate to be more of a Reward T1 than a tool I can actually make use of.
Do you like it better than Egypt Mughals for the Western Units?
@@gabrieljoseozanan6989 I mean I did it a while back before Egypt had Western units, I basically formed Mughals then ignored India and beelined the provinces needed to form it, so I got it quite early.
@@LemonCake101 Very interesting, I didn't know Mughals wasn't an End-Game tag back then!
My strat as Timurids was to immediatelly advance on Hormuz / Oman / Yemen then fight Mamluks when Ottos went for them to seize the Sina & red sea provinces.
So when Ottos turned them into an Eyalet, I called on Poland, declared on Ottos & co-belligerated Egypt, then proceeded to separate Egypt at 100% & white peace Ottos, forming Mamluks after the war.
And then, when Ottos annexed Egypt, I formed Egypt myself via the mission, gaining cores in all former Mamluks land, which in the last game went from Fezzan to Anatolia!
From that point on, it was just a question of Reconquesting it all from Ottos in a few wars, then go all on the Indians to form Mughals after grabbing all the goodies Egypt had to offer.
@@gabrieljoseozanan6989 Sounds like a good plan, I would grab the Mughal formable ASAP for the CCR personally, and then go to the Ottomans, but yes fighting the Ottomans early is the play.
I remember back when Yuan was considered the best tag in the game 💀
The good old days?
@BobbiusRossius ah fair enough I see
Yuan does gets manchu banners and its ideas are far better than qing thing it lacks is a good mission tree. Also if you form yuan after destroying mandate you keep your horde government
Oh fair, I wasn’t aware they kept banners.
@BobbiusRossius honestly debatable for sure, but they are unique and you can play around with them hence they are a +1 for ‘content’. Not everything needs to be insane for it to be worth it.
@BobbiusRossius for sure, it hurts
Don't agree but respect your point of view
Fair enough, any specific clarifications?
Can we get a tier list of breakfast foods?
I feel like I am the wrong person for that!
Poland also has 10% Inf combat ability. PLC has 15%.
Fair, but you lose 15% morale :(
@@LemonCake101yup. I have complained in the forums about PLC and Lotharingia. Like why do these tags have worse ideas than the tags that form them makes no sense. But they did it again with persia so no point complaining i guess they don't care.
Or they find it to be funny or i don't know, can't understand it. Makes no sense to me.
@@xgreedogreed4236 could also be a value difference, with the idea being that +1 admin point is more valuable then morale. Which in SP, it probably is.
@@LemonCake101there is no other way to explain it really.
@@xgreedogreed4236 I guess so
Whilst it may have been in the context of end tags, I have to disagree with the statement that the US is better than other colonial nations. Texas has arguably better ideas as well as not taking penalties for heretic/heathen provinces.
Oh yeah that's fair, I meant more 'compared to other colonial endtags'.
Yo you do know yuan gets sino altaic banners that function the exact same right?
Honestly not really, I need to play in that area more. Its been a while and its seen a lot of updates.
Where’s castanoth? Black demense? Incomplete list tbb
In fairness Anbennar really does not use the end tag system, they just use a 'complete mission to form x country' instead.
As Canadian i got to ask, why is Canada an end game tag?
Part of the colonial endtag list :(
tldr: Bird flag gud
More bird = better country confirmed??
France can get Military Hegemon absurdly early if it makes client states in Germany---(Influence/Mercenary policy)---which means an early dismantle which mean super-high dev. very early. It can get so powerful so quickly that you'll run out of rivals unless you deliberately keep them alive, and as France you do not want Britain or Spain alive except maybe as your subject.
Someone’s been watching the Student! But yes, for sure.
It would have been better if you showed the ideas as well but nice video 😊
Thanks! Yeah I mean I had them open in my notes to be fair, but the tierlist itself already takes up a lot of space...
Latin empire isn't end-game-tag? Huh, surprised
Nope! But if you formed it as Byzantium by event, you keep the 'was an endtag' flag.
@@LemonCake101 Fascinating. So besides Knights->Jerusalem->Latin empire you can go even further
@@filiprohn1643 For sure, but you will need a culture switch
you should have put their national ideas aside to see what they are
I did have them in my notes for the video in fairness, I guess its something to consider, its just the tier list itself takes up 80% of the screen so putting things on top can kind of take away space I don't have if that makes sense.
Yuan B-tier? have you seen their national ideas? O_o
They are good, but damn are they outdated...
Aren't Ilkhanate and Golden Horde end tags as well ?
Nope, they are not end tags!
@@LemonCake101 feels weird, since Yuan is
@@utf4n498 yeah, it can definitely benefit from more consistency!
Mewgals :3
how about north sea empire?
I believe that isn’t a tag switch, just a country rename.
question from a noob isnt greece and italy an endtag ?
Italy is an endtag, and in the video, but Greece is not an endtag!
@LemonCake101 aa okk thankssss why is that actually? if I'm not mistaken which country can you form from Greece?
@@Alejandro.Tzimis if you change your primary culture, any tag that can be formed in general!
aahh thank you very muchhh
@@Alejandro.Tzimis no worries!
Ming→Shun(release and play)→Manchu→Qing
That's a unique campaign for sure!
@@LemonCake101 The only problem is that Oirat might be hostile to you, since you have his core province, so he probably won't support your independence war, which means you have to face the great Ming on your own.
@@DanXiaoGuQAQ Ming isn't that bad in fairness, but for sure its not trivial.
@@LemonCake101 😂I hate to say this, but Ming is too weak. Unlike Yuan and Qing, the missions and ideas of Ming is totally nothing. Core creation? No. Land morale? No. Administrative efficiency? Still no. I know all of these are for the balance, but...Although I'm a Chinese player, I still dislike to play as Ming.😂
@@LemonCake101 And it's very easy to defeat Ming. Just wait for him to pass a mandate reform. Then the empire will collapse under endless rebels.
Malaya & Prussia should be endtags
Prussia can't really be an endtag as it needs to be able to form Germany.
Downvoted for not making the US at least C-tier.
If E tier existed the colonial tags would be there.
Formable tag tier list?
Theres... a lot of them.
@@LemonCake101 ok fine top 60. Or Do A-F G-L M-R-S-Z then tier group of the four there. Or something similar to it.
@@LemonCake101 Or you split continents/area . Then finish up the video tier list on the best of the best
@@Suzaku455 an area split may be a shout, but yeah it will be a major project whatever I choose
Where's ruthenia????
It’s a nice tag but it’s no end tag!
That was a surprise to me too. I had thought Ruthenia was a (bad) end game tag for years now.
No ireland???? #society
Not an endtag, not on the list.
SPQR
Honestly is way too strong
Bongo
Hey I recognize that Bongo!
Germany can get the prussian monarchy
They can, but it comes with -50% gov cap so a lot of the time it gets dropped from my experience to let you actually govern Prussia