I was initially taught to never break in a corner. As a result, when I came in a turn too fast and ran out of lean angle. I crashed. While recuperating I discovered your channel and learned about trail breaking. After recuperating I traveled the same road and applied the trail breaking technique I learned with great success.
Sorry you crashed, but we all have a similar story, right? I'm willing to bet that corner where you fell, for the rider you are today is a mellow, boring corner.
This exact thing happened to me also… I forced myself to overcome that & trail braking was the safest way to brake while cornering to guarantee I’ve properly adjusted my speed
@@crash86ed Autocorrect is terrible. In the auto-captioning files I have to chase down every "Brake/Break" and every "Writer/Rider". It's exhausting and I know I miss them all the time.
I have been trial braking for over 45 years, zero throttle, gentle one finger pressure to compress the suspension slightly to push the tyre into the tarmac, never had a problem, still upright!
I've been riding a similar amount of time. I was taught never to brake in a corner, but that was with those godawful tyres of the 70s. Even as early as the early 80s, tyre technology and compounds had improved so much that braking all the way to the apex could be considered under good conditions, but it wasn't something I would do in the pretty habitual rainy, potholed and slimy conditions in the UK. Modern riders have no idea of how good modern tyres are.
"Don't be afraid of corners, be afraid of doing something abrupt in corners!" I had a big accident on track in 2018. Just about lost my foot. I became really slow after that. I was terrified of corners for like 3 years. Focusing my fear on being abrupt, instead of generically on the corner made all the difference for me. I'm fast again. I'm safer and corners are fun again. Thanks Dave!
For years, I rode where my right hand was either gripping the throttle or gripping the front brake. This meant having to reposition my fingers between these two, reducing my response time. It was either throttle or brake, with a gap of time as my hand changed grip. When I learned to trail break, I first needed to learn how to have two fingers over the brake while also gripping the throttle. Street riders are never taught this technique but it has dramatically changed my riding for the better. The transition from rolling off the throttle to braking is so much smoother and allows more nuanced control. Thank you for the great video, I'd love to see one that is on this grip technique.
I was riding with a friend and his son recently. I ride a goldwing, they both were on FJRs. The son mentioned he had trouble understanding why I was braking for every corner but he was having trouble keeping up. I laughed and sent him one of your videos. He now gets it.
Great video - as always. A lot of my corners go like this though: 1. Roll off the throttle 2. Reach to the front brake 3. Sneak/Squeeze the front brake 4. Feel the weight transfer 5. Realise I’ve over slowed as a kid on a push bike nearly runs into the back of me. 6. Have to get back onto a neutral throttle to go through the corner 7. Think CanyonChasers would be so disappointed in me. 8. Repeat on the next corner. Rolling off the throttle completely, and loading the front, I think only works if you are going into the corner faster than you are in fact comfortable travelling through it at ..
The problem is that on normal roads the hit can come from the opposite side. If you hard turn in to corners, you are stiffening your suspensions, now you get a hole or a crack on the road, suspension can't copy the surface, there comes the hit and loose grip.
@@Wolfox360You never load your suspension to the maximum, and if you do you should change it for a harder one or just loose some weight 😅 your tires can handle way more then 99% of riders. Hitting a potthole or a piece of wood mid high lean is no problem. I was at a safety training 2 times and we rode over a wood plank 2-3cm high, or around 1inch. 1inch= 2,54cm? Something like that, mid high lean of corse and it worked perfectly. Matter fact I rode over it with more lean then others did without the wooden plank. Like many many thinks when riding: most of the time you and your brain are the problem
Best description of trailbraking I've heard so far. All the other videos I've watched are just too confusing, but this video pares it down to its fundamental structure. Thanks so much for posting.
You got me trail braking several years ago and I consider it one of the most helpful skills I've learned. I use it on every ride and I am shocked at the resistance I receive when I bring up the subject. It's saved my bacon a few times when turns have been sharper than I thought, simply by gently applying a bit more brake pressure while already trail braking.. Thanks so much.
Very well explained... thanks. As a newbie in the world of motorcycles (been riding for only 2 months now), i keep my speed down in all corners so that i don't need/have to trail brake. As a former truck driver for over 20 years, i learned to reduce speeds and to anticipate potential problems and this is helping me as a new rider out there. One thing i do as a rider is what i had to do as a truck driver : respect the suggested yellow speed limit signs before corners. As i'm gaining experience, i can take some corners a little faster than before. Example : the yellow speed limit sign says 75km in a 90km zone (i'm in Canada - km not miles), i now know i can take it at 80km or 85km as 2 months ago, i would slow down to 75km. But i only take some corners faster... those that i know. Whenever i ride on a new road, i still respect the yellow speed limit signs. Better safe than sorry !! :)
@@sleemanman9188 I can usually double and add 10 mph to the yellow suggested speed sign but only on rare occasions and NEVER in blind turns…visibility and being able to stop within the distance you can see is crucial to safety be careful about increasing speed beyond the yellow sign in blind corners…sometimes the suggested speed would be too fast if there is an obstacle in the road such as a break down or accident or the idiot hanging a u turn…
Ya, good riding used to be so natural. Now, seems you have to read 12 books and watch 52 videos to just get out the driveway. That said, with the power and speed capabilities and all the track hype these days, i can see how a bit more coaching could be a good thing. But it still comes down to the mindset of the rider.
Excellent advice. One thing I wish more coaches would teach is covering the front brake at all times with 1 or 2 fingers - thank you Andy! It only took me a week to get used to after 30+ years and > 250K miles of road riding. That ~250-500ms of reaction time has saved me from sketchy situations multiple times on the road since. Bought ChampU and so many safety techniques transfer from the track to the road it blew my mind. I use trail-braking, 100 pts of grip, load tire before working it, body position, etc. on the road nearly every day. No where near the levels on the track but that application of safe-modulation, situational awareness and prep on corner sequence is muscle memory now. Keep up the fantastic content! 👍
The more I ride and the older I get.... ( 68 ) the more I cover my levers. It's hardly ever the ROAD that concerns me. It's the other drivers especially in 35-45 mph zones !
New rider of 8 months here and I've been consuming your content with glee. Love these trail braking and "anti" going wide videos! Please keep them coming! Not enough people can articulate the how to drive a motorcycle adeptly!
When I first started driving I was self taught mainly at first blasting around an empty field in an old beater and later with oversight by my father. After I got my license a friend who had done the driver's training in school was riding with me, when I applied the brakes in a corner he had a fit. He told me in school he had been taught to never use the brakes in a corner. I continued to use the brakes in a corner all be it carefully. When I started to ride a motorcycle cycle a couple of years I continued the practice and still do it to this day. I didn't know there was a term for it until recently. Excellent video as usual.
what a great video! "never break in the corner" is the same bs like "hands off the front brake in situation xy"! the front brake is the most important brake in mostly every situation (even offroad!) and this bs myths only exist because instructors want to prevent beginners from hammering into the front break. instead, they should teach the right usage of the front break right from the beginning!
Front brakes and shifting, but in the video he's not saying to not brake in corners, is mostly like , be in the correct speed for the corner, by braking earlier.
Man you really nailed it with the "then we were required to tell all of these new riders to ignore a lifetime of driving and bicycling experience..." My MSF course almost ruined riding for me. I've had to combat that msf course and remind myself that "I already know how to do this" from all those years of riding a bicycle. The only real difference is the speed and weight of the bike...
Exactly right. The argument has often been "you can't teach this to a new rider" - You've been doing this your entire life. Slowing into corners is the most intuitive thing in the world.
A perfect refresher course! You’re still the best riding instructor on UA-cam, Dave. Make more vids, please. Also, where is the Moar Coast? Good riding there? Nice beaches? 😉
I constantly trail brake….been doing it for decades. The only thing you need to remember while taking corners at the maximum safe speed, is eyes on where you want to go, and no abrupt anything, braking, getting off the gas, getting on the gas, cranking the bike aggressively into a corner. Riding at an elevated speed is a wisdom thing, and a lesson on being patient and pick your spots. I prefer not to ride in groups, for the simple reason, that others around, take your level of concentration down, and it adds variables to safe riding. Having said that, a couple of experienced riders. Who have wisdom can enhance a ride. The advice given here is solid, and really nothing to add. The sport of riding should always involve everyone getting home safely, and there is nothing like experience, and a lifelong interest in learning just how to make the bike do what you want it to do.
Great job of removing the woo woo from trail braking and encouraging commonsense use of front brakes to stay safe in corners. Simple, straightforward and confidence inspiring.
Three minutes into this video I knew you knew what you were doing. Subscribed. I’m 70yo. I learned on dirt 60 years ago and have always believed dirt made me a better street rider. This is now the best video I have seen. I believe we all have to learn, refresh and train.
I was a nervous wreck new rider fresh out of msf and parking lots. I was great at slow speed stuff even better than my cousin who had been riding for 6 years, but on the streets going fast just wasn't something I was comfortable with. I signed up for champs school at Laguna Seca and took my rs660. Great experience, met a lot of nice people and was a very. fun and exciting 2 day course. I came out of that class maybe 5-10 times better rider. I am now the safer faster cousin rider, he still refuses to go to school or listen to any advice probably why we just high sided at willow springs. Trail braking completely changed my riding style, always having the front brake lever covered with my 2 fingers pointed and ready to go on the brakes has made me a very confident rider. Learn how to brake to be able to go fast!
I love your teaching style and how you take the time to make “complicated topics” easy to understand and remember. Never brake (abruptly) in corners is genius 👏👏👏
I just finished a YCRS ChampSchool at NJMP and it's heavy on trail braking / progressive control inputs. Great stuff. Back home, riding hundreds of miles of twisties a day, I realized how few corners require any braking (beside engine braking on my big KTM V-twin). Unless I'm confronted with a 15 or 20 MPH hairpin, rolling off the throttle is all the braking I need because I didn't pin the throttle on the previous corner exit. Roll on. Roll off. Repeat. FWIW, I'm rolling along 10 to 20 over the speed limit (65 - 75 ish) and at least doubling the suggested corner speeds, so I'm not dawdling. Trail brake when needed, but the fingers are always covering the lever (just in case). If you ride public roads like a track day, that's different. But I ride "The Pace (2.0)" and it's just another tool in the toolbox. Apply when needed.
I always brake in corners if need be, and I always use trailbraking on public roads. It just makes sense on both counts. Those who think it's for a racetrack only don't have a clue what they're talking about, and obviously don't understand trailbraking. The key, as you said, is not to do so abruptly. I really love the "early, lighter, and longer" for brake usage. This is something that should be taught at the beginning in the MSF BRC classes, in my humble estimation. As always, Dave, you hit it out of the park with this phenomenal video! You're my hero of the riding world. I just told my wife that I wish I could spend like three months every single day with you and have you teach me. I've been riding a lot of years, but I'm never too proud to learn or recognize the incredible skills and knowledge of others, and you are at the top of the list, sir. I am riding a new Gold Wing and I trail brake every time I ride, but I'd love to have that close up and personal instruction where what I do can be seen and analyzed. Thing is, the nuances and handling characteristics of my new ride are much different than my old Suzuki Boulevard C90T cruiser, so I almost feel like a first-week MSF BRC rider again. LOL Anyway, thanks again for sharing your wisdom! I ALWAYS come away knowing more and also being challenged to get better as a rider! Ride safe, ride well, and ride often!!
@@soujrnr I’m jealous (not in a green eyed monster kinda way 🤣) of that new Gold Wing. I’ll be 62 in December and I haven’t given up sport bikes yet but if and when I do I won’t be riding a Harley. Gold Wing all the way…
I agree 100%. And I am really surprised that after 35 years of riding (and not watching much UA-cam until recently) I have learnt these techniques by myself. No classes attended. Like you said, it’s basic common sense. You slow down to turn. Same as a car. More finesse at the controls. I do use the rear brake at the same time as I find it calms the bike down but you are right in saying the rear traction is limited when braking with the front. The problem with all of this when it comes to beginners (my girlfriend started riding last year) is to make them understand that they have to be gentle with the controls. I rode in the winter up north on ice on a river when I was young. 2 wheels. No studs. Just rubber. 5 winters. You learn how to be smooth with the controls. Beginners don’t have that chance to learn what slipping and sliding feels like. You have to listen to what your front tire is trying to tell you. Feel is the name of the game. Hard to explain to someone just starting. Stay safe out there.
You explained this so well I've been riding just like this for over 45 years. People are afraid to use the front brake when cornering for fear of it sliding out but if loaded up when entering corner then pressure relieved and controlled with slight steady pressure you are better prepared for the unexpected variables when riding on unridden roads. plenty of time to power on when you can see where your going safely.
Thank you for your videos on the various aspects of trail braking. No surprise, it works! I originally started riding dirt bikes in the desert in my 20’s. Then I moved on to road bikes where I took a riding course to get my motorcycle endorsement for my license. In desert riding we always covered the front brake with two fingers. But in the street bike training our instructor said, “all you dirt bike guys get your fingers off the front brake!” Also, “never brake into a corner!” Bad advice. After watching your videos I applied the methods you taught. It took a while but I “unlearned” the bad advice I was taught in the riding course and your methods have given me more confidence, safety and control in the corners. Thank you!!
Your still the best on UA-cam explaining CLEARLY what good motorcycle techniques really are. There are so many variations of the meaning of trail braking from the other “UA-cam experts” For instance Motojitsu makes everything so complicated in his explanations that it makes the relatively easy and simple skills on motorcycles so complex. Your simple explanation s are so much more easier to understand and without the “ego” other UA-cam “experts” try to portray. Another example on other channels are explanations on cornering - making an easy skill sound So Hard. It must make new riders feel so inadequate. Even I that have been riding my whole life find the explanations so complex and hard to understand. Thank you once again for simple easy to understand, great clear and concise accurate information!! Its a real credit listening to you and it’s obvious your are very highly experienced something I really look up to. Feel very privileged to watch your videos Thank you so much Cheers from “downunder Australia 🇦🇺 👍
Great video mate, makes so much sense, when I first got my license, instructors told us never brake in a corner, but in actual fact they should have told us don't brake abruptly in corner, thx
Another great video! I'll add this: I don't think a lot of people understand just how much engine braking plays into their deceleration until they pop into a false neutral and have a near-heart attack at their entry speed..... speaking from experience, of course 😅
The converse is also true; I rode 2-stroke street bikes and scooters for years before getting my first 4-stroke bike, and was disturbed by how much engine braking there is. I currently have a Yamaha XSR900 which does NOT have user settings for engine braking, but the newer MT09 does. I can see myself cranking that engine braking figure all the way down.
@@langhamp8912 I was listening to the Oxley Bom podcast and they were saying the best MotoGP racers come up riding two-strokes because it teaches them so much more about how to work within the physics of how motorcycles turn and whatnot. Like you, I tend to turn-down my engine braking, and it's amazing when a rider is struggling with a corner, getting them to enter it a gear (sometimes two) higher than they were and they find the corner to smoother, more controlled, etc. Engine braking is kinda like dragging a little bit of rear brake. A little bit is great, a whole lot can be unsettling.
This has completely transformed the way I ride. Going through the twisties has become even more enjoyable. Let’s be honest, at some point we all have been nervous riding on super twisty roads. Trail braking has put the fun back into it! Great video brother. Taking champ street in August!
Late apex, Slow in, Fast out, access the corner way before getting to it and use maintenance throttle once into the corner to stabilise the bike, l like you explanation of trail braking it really makes sense.
Totally unrelated...man those cattle grates/guards in UT were not what I was expecting...nor cattle just out roaming around. :) But man, was the scenery gorgeous!
Good stuff, Dave. While not the ideal way to learn about front braking, I was on a trip in Mexico when my rear brake failed and all I had was the front. I quickly found out that it wasn't the scary, "never do" scenario that had been drilled into me in my MSF course years ago. I've since have put front braking into my riding technique in the public road twisties. Your asterisk on "abruptly" is key. Thank you for that emphasis. You picked some great roads for this video. UT 72 and UT 12 are fantastic roads, with UT 72 being much less traveled (and with less deer than I've experienced on that aspen section of UT 12 between Boulder and Torrey).
Exactly, it is an option if needed or wanted to do. I spent a few months exercising trail braking (and I really like it) in nearly every corner. So my front tire ended up “v” shaped very fast. Nice skill to have but not for every corner.
@@kwakithailand I've wondered about that; I use the rear brake consistently when not trail braking but don't touch the rear brake at all when trail braking. Dunno if that's right, but I've had sideways skids from very light trail braking.
@@kwakithailand Yes, we can trail brake with the rear brake. It's possible. It works, but the front brake works better. It's not _just_ about slowing down, its also about controlling the bikes geometry, the front tire contact patch, etc.
It amazes me how many riders dont know about counter steering or trail braking. On a side note, ive ridden both of those roads numerous times. Hurricane, UT to Torrey, UT. Theyre awsome rides, but im back in Oregon now and there are some of the best roads in the country here... hidden gems. Love your content, every rider should be subscribed!!
I'm a new rider (less than a year) and was about to go wide in a corner the first time I went in faster than usual. Breaking gently in the turn saved me from an accident.
In a last case (really last!), it is possible to straighten the bike in a corner and brake as hard as possible (as much as there is places), then release the brakes and drop the engine through the rest of the corner. Twice in my driving career I saved myself from a crash/death that way, but I've been driving for 50 years, so it's only done when there's no other solution.
Thanks for this, I was wondering what the best technique would be if something unexpected happens in a corner. Have had a bike when I was 20 to 30 yrs old am 61 now and bought a bike recently.
Most every motorcycle answer starts with "It depends." So, yes, you can, but thats an pretty hard, technical, and unforgiving move. If you have the grip or have no other option then yeah. For example, I had to do that move at a recent track day where a rider came up underneath me in a corner to make a pass, but couldn't make it stick and started running wide. I had no place to go as he was blocking my turn, so my only option was to straighten and hammer the brakes. But because I was going much faster than 18mph, I promptly went off track. Because I was upright I was able to save it. But that was an extreme and rare case. I think that may be only the second time I've used it in well over 30 years of riding.
@@CanyonChasers That it should be used only when there is a situation where we have another way out, in 50 years, I only used it two times, but it probably saved my life twice. You should know that it can, but only a good experienced rider who will judge when to stop braking and "knock down" the motorcycle again. I once had to do it twice and it worked - I was left with a thrown bike leg when they didn't have an engine lock button on it, a long left curve about 120km/h, and a precipice of 200m on the right side. I braked hard, then hit the foot again and finally stopped on the edge of the precipice meybe 0,5-1,0m . Road around Adriatik sea 1980 year. Sorry for bad english.
@CanyonChasers after watching a lot of UA-cam videos on 'trail braking', most vloggers seem to agree that the principles of trail braking are (1)to load the front tire for more grip and (2)it may decrease the distance between the front and rear tires improving the cornering capability of the bike (forgot the better term for it). Basing from this, i practiced and applied these principles to every cornering i made at almost all moving speeds when not contraindicated and found out that the improvement in ease and control during cornering is applicable to any speed in my daily city commute making me wonder why this was not taught at all as a basic riding skill.
The concept you are missing is "turn-in point", which differs greatly depending on the corner. It's the point where the apex and exit can be identified, and the rider commits to the lean angle to steer through the corner, in one steering motion (theoretically one). An initial slighter lean is needed until the rider can see through the corner - this is where braking to set speed is done. In a DRB (decreasing radius bastard) that point is late into the corner. Speed should be set prior to turn-in initiation, brakes released prior to turn-in, and throttle applied after the bike is at the desired lean angle. Therefor, the throttle is NOT used to accelerate all the way through the corner. It is used after commitment to turn-in. The term "acceleration" is used lightly in the context as well. Initially only enough to take up driveline lash and settle the suspension, and gradually rolled on as the circumstance allows. Keith Code covered it well in 1993 with "twist of the Wrist ll", and years later commented to trail brake only when it's required.
Hello from Newfoundland. Before I heard practice than implemented trail braking I don't know how safe and in control I was !!!! It has changed and improved my riding ten folds easy the best tool I got throughout reading and taking advice from different outlets in my 25 years riding career . Try it implement it right and reap the rewards. Chuck
They think it's an "advanced technique" because they see professional racers use it. When in reality, we are taught to be smooth with our controls which really what trail braking is.
Yes, in a private lesson, my instructor told me NOT to trail brake as it was an advanced technique for experienced riders. Yet, I did it naturally on the course.
Last weekend i was doing 65 around a backroad corner, four deer bolted across the road and I slammed on the brakes both front and back coming to a fast stop down to 5 mph. Luckily I have abs and came to a smooth straight in my lane position stop. My Voyager slightly straightened up as I quickly slowed to the 5 mph. The buy behind me who does not have abs smoked up his rear tire and skid sideways and past me up by a few yards. He's been riding for 65 years so he did well in preventing laying the bike down. Neither of us hit any of the deer. Me only riding for 4 years have the abs working on my behalf. So braking in corners can be done one way or the other, especially if you have no choice.
I’m really inspired by these videos about trail braking. I have practiced a little. It’s reassuring that the uncertainty about the corners is normal. I do worry about my bike at times as it has CBS - but this doesn’t seem to affect my trail braking efforts.
You are correct saying we trail brake already. We trailbrake coming to a red light. we see a red, we apply the brakes smoothly and ease off until we come to a stop under control. This is done without thinking about it, trailbraking for a corner is the same technique, ease on the brakes, then ease off the brakes as needed to keep the motorcycle under control and not go wide.
If traveling at legal speeds most often you will not need to use brakes in a corner at all. This assumes reducing your speed to legal limit before the corner. If there's an obstacle in the corner it is of course a different story and the reason why you should never open the throttle before you see the exit of the corner. When it comes to oil spills or ice and such on the road, the safest thing to do is to sit home and watch youtube rather then ride 😁 Good video, thank you.
That's because you take good lines. If you take good lines, you don't usually benefit from braking into a corner, even at more than double the speed limit. But go back to the speed limit and turn in too early. Now you have to brake into the corner to make it safely. If you routinely trail brake in street riding, it's mostly likely because you turn in too early.
My father was a truck driver, i have learn to drive a car from 10 years old, the only think i remember is slow down before the corner !!! Am keeping it 20 years now as rider and i have zero accidents !!!! Am using my brakes even on the corners and am enjoying the rides way more cause i have confidence cause i feel safety !!!! That was and awsome video !!!!
I learned years ago from Twist of the Wrist to essentially break the corner into 3 parts. The first is the slowing down, trail braking until my fork compression from braking matches the needed compression from cornering Part 2 is to catch the throttle and wait for the clear exit path. Part 3 is rolling on throttle to give me the acceleration I want. I found that this strategy even works in cars.
Great video as always, thanks and this is very needed for so many new and old riders who still live in wrong impression that you should never touch front brake in corner. PS love your Strada, actually called dealership last week and wanted to order new V2S to hear and stay surprised that model cannot be ordered anymore as apparently they are coming up with the new model, for which there is still no info about as of yet.
@@Igor12822 I'm sure you saw the Panigale V2 final edition. Things are changing at Ducati and I don't know what to make of things. I'm going to need a new bike here - and really don't know which way to go.
Another very interesting video on cornering. But, what I am still concerned about, which I have not seen anyone address on YT, is the danger of engaging the front brake and causing the bike to go out of control. I think the term is "binding", when you rapidly slow down the "forward" motion - i.e. the component of the bike's motion that is going in the direction of the curve - and cause the momentum of the rear 3/4 of the bike to go forward - i.e. in the direction it was pointed just before you hit the front brake. That means you have to go off the road, our of control. It also means you have lost traction so the tires are not gripping the road surface. This happens because you are in a curve going too fast. Canyon makes the case that you must at that point use the front brake delicately and with control, without panicing. But if you are going too fast at that point - too fast to make the curve without crashing - and if using either front or rear brakes will cause more compression of the front and more traction on the front tire and less on the rear - then I still think the only recourse you have other than panicing and wiping out - is to use more rear brakes as best you can and maybe slow your momentum so you have a slower crash.
It’s not addressed because the rider would have had to make a lot of mistakes to get to the point you are worried about. Going exceedingly fast and then waiting until mid corner to mash the front brake. This video focuses on a strategy so that never happens. Slowing into corners isn’t a reaction to bad judgement. It’s out strategy for every corner. We go to the brakes when we are nervous. We don’t wait until we are in panic mode. We go to the brakes earlier, lighter and for longer. This is how motorcycles are designed to turn so they turn better with more stability this way.
Get a BMW GS, it has combined brakes, with clever electronics distributing the brake power between front and rear breaks on demand. And the Telelever front suspension pretty much prevents the compression of forks when breaking. And the curve ABS does it's job, when needed. These all builds up your confidence in couple of years at a high level, because you learn that you can break in curve as much as needed (dry asphalt) safely, in case you enter in a curve too fast. I guess many other modern bikes too, except the Telelever. If you got a 25 years old Harley, be careful. :)
The issue here in northern England is narrow roads with poor visibility on most corners, without this technique we wouldn’t make much progress. I’m an experienced rider but I think as usual you give some great advice to all levels of experience on the road. I use two fingers to front brake on my lovely Multistrada in nearly every corner but it’s gentle and progressive, to be honest I very seldom touch the rear brake apart from controlling front end dive in heavy traffic which is rare around here. My instructor told me slow and gentle into a bend and as the visibility reduces, and then accelerate as the ‘vanishing point’ moves away as the road straightens and the view opens up, eventually it becomes second nature.
I absolutely love the UK - especially Scotland and the highlands. Those single track roads with passing places are amazing. But you are exactly right. Except, I'm really soft of "vanishing point." I think it's a great clue, but it's wrong an awful lot. I've been in lots of corners where the vanishing point is moving away, but the corner is actually still getting tighter. So we coach to just wait until you can see the exit before actively accelerating.
@@CanyonChasers I’ve never really trusted it, my back yard is Northumberland and the Scottish Borders, all great biking roads that lead to the stunning west coast of Scotland and the Highlands, I’m a very lucky boy, keep up the great content👍.
68 here/44 still riding; all sport. I was taught to SQUEEZE the front brake- NEVER EVER GRAB; Front= 80%+ of total braking available…to LOAD the front end, giving me LEAN. Also…dragging the rear brake through tight corners as needed. ***. I took a Braking Class decades ago- with the class bikes in cages- with outrigger caster wheels. We had to go 60 and lock it up. On purpose. Great lesson for stopping distances, ABS vs Non, etc.
The MSF needs to update their outdated curriculum. There so much bureaucracy and egos the real focus on safety cant really be accomplished. Solid video thanks for sharing it!
Mindfulness when riding is an amazing thing. Feeling the road…feeling the front tyre contacting the road surface, feeling the road surface. That’s how you know become one with your bike .
I started riding as a teen back in the last 60's, quit when I turned 50 and then bought an adventure bike after a 20 year break. All my buddies were "you gotta learn how to trail brake"??? What? In all these years I've ridden street, dirt, quad, cafe, three wheelers, early sport bikes and old brit thumpers. And lately Ive gotten into side by sides and casual 4 wheeling. I raced for 1 season on my CR500 in the desert. The problem with trail braking is not only the definition but the wild mix of differing techniques across all the bikes we all ride. I'll go faster in the corner and use the rear wheel to turn the bike in dirt, and have even used that at high speed on dirt to save my life, literally. Using the front brake on downhills was not what I was learned as a teen and it took me a while to relearn that habit. So when a street rider gives me advice I have to consciously think about his experiences and blend what I know with what he's saying Of course it's been 45+ years since I rode my 750 Norton so my tarmac canyon carving was on old tech tires and drum front brakes and those experiences slow me down on todays road bikes. I guess what I'm actually saying is advice from other riders needs to be taken with caution as you might not know his level or type of experience which forms his opinion. I read about braking in a real paper magazine 30+ yrs ago and I still use this when I am not rushed or panicked, just play with this cornering technique, and on several corners with steeply decreasing radius, it's worked. Go into the corner, roll off throttle, lightly grab front brake then lightly drag rear brake while gently using more throttle. As you gain experience you can increase control pressures. This loads the front tire even more than normal trail braking and stiffens all the bikes suspension, front and rear and the bike can corner at higher speeds or turn in sharper. Of course this came from a professional sport bike racer for use on the track. So, should I use the experience gained from an experienced winning racer? Probably not on the street or the dirt for that matter. But, knowing and playing with this technique very lightly has given me another tool. Please remember this advice, advice is worth what you paid for it....
The big debate I've ever seen with trail braking is less whether it works (universal favor in my circles), and more where the etymology comes from. I was taught that it's because loading and tightening up the front suspension trims the front geometry, including the trail, in order to make for more precise steering input, rather than anything to do with "trailing on/off" the brake
It's a great question. Trailing off brake pressure vs. Reducing Trail. I kinda' wish it didn't have a name because we get "drag the trailing brake" "only on dirt trails" It's not an intuitive term.
Speaking of slippery corners. One time I was riding in Northern Colorado in a Natl. Forest on a windy road in the rain. I was being cautious as I went around a curve and there was a pile of cow stuff in the road. My rear tire slipped out some but I regained control and when I looked up, there was a cow napping in the road. Good thing I was going slow enough. If I would have even touched my front brake I would have gone down. I never use my front brake in the rain on a curvy road.
1.28 in , I brake in corners . I downshift in corners , the worse that happens if I don t match rev enough the ass end kicks out a bit , and its fun. As a kid I rode my bmx in the canadian winter , it was a blast.
Interesting and makes complete sense. I remember as a child flying down hills on my pedal bike enjoying the speed whilst gently squeezing the front brake into the bends and we never came off ! Surely a motorbike is the same …
good info, here in southern Spain the country roads can get very polished after 6-8 mths with no rain, in hairpins I gently trail brake and if any hazards like oil slicks or tar snakes i may reduce fronk brake and apply slightly more rear, but on my old 916 ST the 320mm front brakes are very linear and powerfull, whereas the single 245mm rear is nearly an ornament, plus Battleaxe S22 tyres have amazing grip as i do not have ABS ( nore do i want it)😂😂
Your best video! Great coverage of the myriad arguments, sayings, and outright insanity that people on all sides spout on this topic. Now we have something to confidently send to people. Thanks!
As a biker with over 51 years riding experience and averaging over 330 days, a year on motorcycles, I-grade the presenter, a 95 out of 100. The only thing I add is that my bike weighs 800 pounds and I weigh 250 pounds and I have my rear brake lightly mimic my front brake action in fast curves. I feel this planes me out and anchors me once again thank you for the outstanding presentation.
You sir, are exactly on point! Yes, bigger, heavier, longer, lower bikes, the rear brake is much more useful because there is less weight shift to the front wheel.
I experienced the lack of trail breaking on my Harley low rider on a closing radius corner in May 2023 thinking I could stay on the throttle and add lean angle. Bad idea and I had 49,000 miles on top of two bikes at the time. Two problems. Too much speed at 37 mph, the bracket for forward controls/floorboards. When I hit the bracket, I lost the rear tire and low sided across the lane into a ditch. Ouch. Time stands still, although you don’t…going horizontally at 37 mph BTW. Don’t try it. I Didn’t scratch myself due to extreme gear but broke 4 ribs (thank goodness in the front, not back). FYI, because of AGATT I went home put on a tux and went to a gala. Unreal day. Gear? Top of the line Harley leather jacket, fully armored. Kevlar jeans, leather knuckle protector gloves, Harley high ankle boots. Full face helmet. Lesson? Trail break, see the exit. What I saw was pavement. Embarrassing as hell and a bit painful. Informative? Incredibly.
Great video, thumps up! One addition from my personal point of view: never ever use front brake in a close serpentine when going upwards... because that will load the front, stiffen it up and in extreme situations, like Stelvio for example, it will make you going on the opposite lane.
I loved to break in corners with my Ducati 900 with warm tyres on good surfaces, feeling how the bike wanted to go straight and push the inner hand to keep in lean .... great feeling of control. Took years of practice
If all other ways of braking are taught correctly , [other then trail braking ]and that is anything like the slow lean press ands roll. then there is no added danger to any bend What goes with that system is that as one approaches any bend and slows using throttle and or braking on is looking for the limit point. That is as far a the eye can see into any bend. You can't see further and it's that limit point that give you the correct entry speed for that bend. Its simply a fact that you should only be able to brake in the distance that you can see to be clear [ that limit point] and on you side of the road. Others who advocate trail braking try to miss that one thing that will keep us all safe on any bend. The limit point is the distance that you can stop in so it becomes your speed limit for that bend. if you are still approaching that bend and the limit point is staying in one place then you need to slow more. If and when the limit point starts to move away from you and round the bend with you that is your safe distance and thus speed to take that bend in. Then you remain a constant from it and ride round the bend. If at any time the limit point is moving closer it means that the bend is tightening and one must slow accordingly. Usually after the apex the limit point goes away from one and it can be seen that and the road is straightening out and then you are coming out of the bend. At all times whilst in the bend with the bike leaning over you should be keeping the same distance to your limit point, you are on an open and steady throttle and constant speed, not accelerating. That is until the limit point opens up at the end of the bend ahead,. then and only then when your bike is almost upright and the road is straight ahead then can you open her up. to your required speed the bend now being behind you.
Cool. So the limit point is getting closer to me? What do I do if I’m supposed be on the throttle throughout the entire corner? Limit point is a great tool. But it’s not the absolute answer to every cornering problem. Just like countersteering isn’t the answer to every cornering problem.
@@CanyonChasers Agreed but unlike the advice of being on the throttle and accelerating throughout a bend in with use of the limit point one maintains merely a constant throttle, a positive one but without any acceleration. When a bike is leant over and counter steered into a bend its contact patch goes from its original state being central to the tyre to being one on the sidewall of a tyre and thus on that sidewall one would be circumnavigating a lesser circumference per revs done. That means travelling less distance per revs being done thus slowing down slightly which is what one doesn't really want to do, So the slight increase of revs at the time of the turn is to counteract that natural slowing mechanism and to maintain that now constant speed throughout the bend. That is until after the apex and standing the bike up and when one now has a straight ahead and then one can accelerate out of that bend. If one sees the limit point getting closer one knows that it is necessary to slow and one can do several things like de accelerate or counter steer, change course etc. to alleviate the danger of over shooting said bend.
I think you will enjoy this video as I debunk all those misunderstood physics you are talking about with lots of sources from researchers in the netherlands, the UK and South Africa: ua-cam.com/video/j8JEgkKMrcs/v-deo.htmlsi=V4ue9kIaEylob6yG
This is the same thing as heel/toe shifting while when you are approaching the maximum brake pressure for the corner in a car. Right hand instead of right foot instead of left hand to clutch instead of left foot. Slow to the safe speed for that corner while trailbraking until you are ready to start accelerating. Reducing risk in a controlled manner. Kyle Wyman does this with an almost 650lb bagger racebike on the track to maintain traction and load on the front tire. The suspensions and tires are literally designed to have traction during braking force in the corner and not before singularly. Good lesson sir.
What Kyle does on that bagger is such a great example of what _any_ motorcycle is capable of when the proper techniques are used. BTW, he does the same thing at Champ Schools in a passenger van full of students. It's amazing how it all kinda' works the same.
I find my entry speed based on what I can see, then drive through the corner from there. I find my entry speed, drag the brake and increase the throttle a bit to hold it while the front end is loaded before I enter the corner. I drive through the corner using the brake to adjust my speed and rarely move the throttle until I am releasing the brake and exiting the corner... I guess you think that's wrong but since bringing that off road technique to the street, I have not once overrun a corner and am a lot more confident with my bike. NOTE, sounds to me like CC doesn't endorse this full time braking in corners, readers and followers of CC should take his credentials and experience into consideration and probably stick to his recommended variation of the technique.
Right, there are some programs that endorse this. It's called "pressure braking" or "brottle" But, it's not just me who warns against it. All the top riding programs and top racers are against it. In fact, the idea first came about when someone misquoted Freeddy Spencer in their book. Freddy was talking about overlapping throttle and rear brake to control wheelspin and wheelies on 500GP two stroke race bikes. But because it was published - here we are. Freddy, as well as Sylvain Guintoli, Scott Russel and many others have said over and over again that we should NEVER overlap throttle and front brake. You can find many of these video's on UA-cam. We can get away with overlapping front brake and throttle at slower speeds and/or when we have good grip, but outside of ideal conditions it quickly falls apart. The throttle is telling the bike to accelerate and go straight. The front brake is telling the bike to slow down and turn. Putting these two forces against each other puts the bike in a state of imbalance where it doesn't want to do either. It's the cause of a lot of crashes in racing and track days when riders accidentially overlap throttle and front brake and because the bike doesn't want to slow down or turn, they end up crashing. Now, if you are talking about overlapping throttle and rear brake, thats a totally different thing. But I would STRONGLY encourage you to abandon overlapping with front brake. We really only want to invest in techniques that work when the speed is up or the grip is down, when things matter most, not just when conditions are ideal.
@@CanyonChasers Wow, this is gonna' be a task, trying to erase years of training myself to drive through corners with the front end dipped and the rear wheel pushing to decrease rake, length of bike, and help with the turning radius. We used this technique in motocross for years and I naturally brought it to the street. Not at first only after I over drove a couple of corners, something I have not done since transferring the technique to my Road King. I guess I am still trying to make excuses but I will surrender to your background and experience and try to change. I guess I am gonna' have to go back and watch the vid a few times then go out and see what happens. Since a life of racing I continually train when I am driving two or four wheels for that matter and have thousands of miles dedicated to the old ways, this is gonna' be a task. Willing to learn though, example, after 50 years of riding in shorts and sheaks, I finally armored up this year and didn't have to crash to make the decision. lol. Thanks for the guidance, see your vids soon...
All good, I have braked into corners on the road and downshifted because I had to, there can be many reasons, for example you spot an oil or damp patch on your path while you are at lean. When you close the throttle and coast, you have engine braking, but how much that depends on what kind of bike, the load, etc. When I am on the road, I ride exactly the same way I ride on the track, but less. It's not to show off, it's stuff that works, but less speed means less braking, less lean angle, less body movement and so on. But, what you didn't say in the video and I was expecting to see, is what to do to brake while you are already into a corner if you must. Sure, be gentle and don't snatch, but that's not all of it.
I’m from Switzerland. People who say ‘never brake in a corner’ must be from places with straight, flat roads. Full-braking-before-tipin is trained and tested here, but in practice I believe trail braking is much better.
I was initially taught to never break in a corner. As a result, when I came in a turn too fast and ran out of lean angle. I crashed. While recuperating I discovered your channel and learned about trail breaking. After recuperating I traveled the same road and applied the trail breaking technique I learned with great success.
Sorry you crashed, but we all have a similar story, right? I'm willing to bet that corner where you fell, for the rider you are today is a mellow, boring corner.
This exact thing happened to me also… I forced myself to overcome that & trail braking was the safest way to brake while cornering to guarantee I’ve properly adjusted my speed
Also looking good through the cones on your Road King.... nice.
brake not break
@@crash86ed Autocorrect is terrible. In the auto-captioning files I have to chase down every "Brake/Break" and every "Writer/Rider". It's exhausting and I know I miss them all the time.
I have been trial braking for over 45 years, zero throttle, gentle one finger pressure to compress the suspension slightly to push the tyre into the tarmac, never had a problem, still upright!
I've been riding a similar amount of time. I was taught never to brake in a corner, but that was with those godawful tyres of the 70s. Even as early as the early 80s, tyre technology and compounds had improved so much that braking all the way to the apex could be considered under good conditions, but it wasn't something I would do in the pretty habitual rainy, potholed and slimy conditions in the UK.
Modern riders have no idea of how good modern tyres are.
Sounds like a successful trial, you can start doing it as a regular thing now.
Nice one.
@@aluisioushahahahahahaha I get this
On my bike if I rolled off the throttle with clutch in I would stop almost on a dime unless I am like in 6th gear.
"Don't be afraid of corners, be afraid of doing something abrupt in corners!" I had a big accident on track in 2018. Just about lost my foot. I became really slow after that. I was terrified of corners for like 3 years. Focusing my fear on being abrupt, instead of generically on the corner made all the difference for me. I'm fast again. I'm safer and corners are fun again. Thanks Dave!
I love it! And you are indeed fast again!
For years, I rode where my right hand was either gripping the throttle or gripping the front brake. This meant having to reposition my fingers between these two, reducing my response time. It was either throttle or brake, with a gap of time as my hand changed grip.
When I learned to trail break, I first needed to learn how to have two fingers over the brake while also gripping the throttle. Street riders are never taught this technique but it has dramatically changed my riding for the better. The transition from rolling off the throttle to braking is so much smoother and allows more nuanced control.
Thank you for the great video, I'd love to see one that is on this grip technique.
I was riding with a friend and his son recently. I ride a goldwing, they both were on FJRs. The son mentioned he had trouble understanding why I was braking for every corner but he was having trouble keeping up. I laughed and sent him one of your videos. He now gets it.
Love it!
"Use more brakes to ride faster...."
Great video - as always. A lot of my corners go like this though:
1. Roll off the throttle
2. Reach to the front brake
3. Sneak/Squeeze the front brake
4. Feel the weight transfer
5. Realise I’ve over slowed as a kid on a push bike nearly runs into the back of me.
6. Have to get back onto a neutral throttle to go through the corner
7. Think CanyonChasers would be so disappointed in me.
8. Repeat on the next corner.
Rolling off the throttle completely, and loading the front, I think only works if you are going into the corner faster than you are in fact comfortable travelling through it at ..
6:57 I love that tire grip loading demonstration. It explains the concept perfectly. Stay smooth on the brakes!
The problem is that on normal roads the hit can come from the opposite side. If you hard turn in to corners, you are stiffening your suspensions, now you get a hole or a crack on the road, suspension can't copy the surface, there comes the hit and loose grip.
@@Wolfox360You never load your suspension to the maximum, and if you do you should change it for a harder one or just loose some weight 😅 your tires can handle way more then 99% of riders. Hitting a potthole or a piece of wood mid high lean is no problem. I was at a safety training 2 times and we rode over a wood plank 2-3cm high, or around 1inch. 1inch= 2,54cm? Something like that, mid high lean of corse and it worked perfectly. Matter fact I rode over it with more lean then others did without the wooden plank. Like many many thinks when riding: most of the time you and your brain are the problem
Best description of trailbraking I've heard so far. All the other videos I've watched are just too confusing, but this video pares it down to its fundamental structure. Thanks so much for posting.
You got me trail braking several years ago and I consider it one of the most helpful skills I've learned. I use it on every ride and I am shocked at the resistance I receive when I bring up the subject. It's saved my bacon a few times when turns have been sharper than I thought, simply by gently applying a bit more brake pressure while already trail braking.. Thanks so much.
In a sea of confusing conversation about trail breaking this was the most clear and relatable. Thanks.
Very well explained... thanks. As a newbie in the world of motorcycles (been riding for only 2 months now), i keep my speed down in all corners so that i don't need/have to trail brake. As a former truck driver for over 20 years, i learned to reduce speeds and to anticipate potential problems and this is helping me as a new rider out there. One thing i do as a rider is what i had to do as a truck driver : respect the suggested yellow speed limit signs before corners. As i'm gaining experience, i can take some corners a little faster than before. Example : the yellow speed limit sign says 75km in a 90km zone (i'm in Canada - km not miles), i now know i can take it at 80km or 85km as 2 months ago, i would slow down to 75km. But i only take some corners faster... those that i know. Whenever i ride on a new road, i still respect the yellow speed limit signs. Better safe than sorry !! :)
@@sleemanman9188 I can usually double and add 10 mph to the yellow suggested speed sign but only on rare occasions and NEVER in blind turns…visibility and being able to stop within the distance you can see is crucial to safety be careful about increasing speed beyond the yellow sign in blind corners…sometimes the suggested speed would be too fast if there is an obstacle in the road such as a break down or accident or the idiot hanging a u turn…
Never used to call it trail braking it was just how you rode. Fascinating to see how much attention it gets today. Great video please keep it up!
Right. I kinda wish it didn't have a name. The concept in itself is the most intuivite thing in the world.
Ya, good riding used to be so natural. Now, seems you have to read 12 books and watch 52 videos to just get out the driveway. That said, with the power and speed capabilities and all the track hype these days, i can see how a bit more coaching could be a good thing. But it still comes down to the mindset of the rider.
Excellent advice. One thing I wish more coaches would teach is covering the front brake at all times with 1 or 2 fingers - thank you Andy! It only took me a week to get used to after 30+ years and > 250K miles of road riding. That ~250-500ms of reaction time has saved me from sketchy situations multiple times on the road since. Bought ChampU and so many safety techniques transfer from the track to the road it blew my mind. I use trail-braking, 100 pts of grip, load tire before working it, body position, etc. on the road nearly every day. No where near the levels on the track but that application of safe-modulation, situational awareness and prep on corner sequence is muscle memory now. Keep up the fantastic content! 👍
Absolutely right!
The more I ride and the older I get.... ( 68 ) the more I cover my levers. It's hardly ever the ROAD that concerns me. It's the other drivers especially in 35-45 mph zones !
New rider of 8 months here and I've been consuming your content with glee. Love these trail braking and "anti" going wide videos! Please keep them coming! Not enough people can articulate the how to drive a motorcycle adeptly!
Always be selective to who you listen to
Thank you. Running wide is not fun. Precision and control sure is, though!
Trail breaking is a valid technique. I was trained on this technique when I attended police motor training.
Great video!
Where they filmed the coyote and roadrunner cartoons eh? 😂😂😂
00:20
Literally
When I first started driving I was self taught mainly at first blasting around an empty field in an old beater and later with oversight by my father. After I got my license a friend who had done the driver's training in school was riding with me, when I applied the brakes in a corner he had a fit. He told me in school he had been taught to never use the brakes in a corner. I continued to use the brakes in a corner all be it carefully. When I started to ride a motorcycle cycle a couple of years I continued the practice and still do it to this day. I didn't know there was a term for it until recently. Excellent video as usual.
what a great video! "never break in the corner" is the same bs like "hands off the front brake in situation xy"! the front brake is the most important brake in mostly every situation (even offroad!) and this bs myths only exist because instructors want to prevent beginners from hammering into the front break. instead, they should teach the right usage of the front break right from the beginning!
From your keyboard to gods ears!
instructors' dilemma... CYA !
Front brakes and shifting, but in the video he's not saying to not brake in corners, is mostly like , be in the correct speed for the corner, by braking earlier.
Man you really nailed it with the "then we were required to tell all of these new riders to ignore a lifetime of driving and bicycling experience..."
My MSF course almost ruined riding for me. I've had to combat that msf course and remind myself that "I already know how to do this" from all those years of riding a bicycle. The only real difference is the speed and weight of the bike...
Exactly right. The argument has often been "you can't teach this to a new rider" - You've been doing this your entire life. Slowing into corners is the most intuitive thing in the world.
A perfect refresher course! You’re still the best riding instructor on UA-cam, Dave. Make more vids, please.
Also, where is the Moar Coast? Good riding there? Nice beaches? 😉
Great point. Coastal riding is fantastic!
I've watched hundreds of motorcycle videos. This is by far the best explanation of trail braking for public roads.
I constantly trail brake….been doing it for decades. The only thing you need to remember while taking corners at the maximum safe speed, is eyes on where you want to go, and no abrupt anything, braking, getting off the gas, getting on the gas, cranking the bike aggressively into a corner. Riding at an elevated speed is a wisdom thing, and a lesson on being patient and pick your spots. I prefer not to ride in groups, for the simple reason, that others around, take your level of concentration down, and it adds variables to safe riding. Having said that, a couple of experienced riders. Who have wisdom can enhance a ride. The advice given here is solid, and really nothing to add. The sport of riding should always involve everyone getting home safely, and there is nothing like experience, and a lifelong interest in learning just how to make the bike do what you want it to do.
Smooth and soft = Enjoy the ride!!
Pure gold man, thanx for the very good lesson!!
🤘🏻👽
Awesome video. The suspension shot after the tyre behaviour explanation closes the case. Thank you!
Great job of removing the woo woo from trail braking and encouraging commonsense use of front brakes to stay safe in corners. Simple, straightforward and confidence inspiring.
Three minutes into this video I knew you knew what you were doing. Subscribed. I’m 70yo. I learned on dirt 60 years ago and have always believed dirt made me a better street rider. This is now the best video I have seen. I believe we all have to learn, refresh and train.
I was a nervous wreck new rider fresh out of msf and parking lots. I was great at slow speed stuff even better than my cousin who had been riding for 6 years, but on the streets going fast just wasn't something I was comfortable with. I signed up for champs school at Laguna Seca and took my rs660. Great experience, met a lot of nice people and was a very. fun and exciting 2 day course. I came out of that class maybe 5-10 times better rider. I am now the safer faster cousin rider, he still refuses to go to school or listen to any advice probably why we just high sided at willow springs. Trail braking completely changed my riding style, always having the front brake lever covered with my 2 fingers pointed and ready to go on the brakes has made me a very confident rider. Learn how to brake to be able to go fast!
I love your teaching style and how you take the time to make “complicated topics” easy to understand and remember. Never brake (abruptly) in corners is genius 👏👏👏
Your channel is one of the most underrated channels on UA-cam…
Thanks for all your hard work!💯👍🏽
I appreciate that! Thank you!
I've been riding for ~55yrs - both on and OFF road.. this guy knows his stuff !
Thank you!
I just finished a YCRS ChampSchool at NJMP and it's heavy on trail braking / progressive control inputs. Great stuff. Back home, riding hundreds of miles of twisties a day, I realized how few corners require any braking (beside engine braking on my big KTM V-twin). Unless I'm confronted with a 15 or 20 MPH hairpin, rolling off the throttle is all the braking I need because I didn't pin the throttle on the previous corner exit. Roll on. Roll off. Repeat. FWIW, I'm rolling along 10 to 20 over the speed limit (65 - 75 ish) and at least doubling the suggested corner speeds, so I'm not dawdling. Trail brake when needed, but the fingers are always covering the lever (just in case). If you ride public roads like a track day, that's different. But I ride "The Pace (2.0)" and it's just another tool in the toolbox. Apply when needed.
I always brake in corners if need be, and I always use trailbraking on public roads. It just makes sense on both counts. Those who think it's for a racetrack only don't have a clue what they're talking about, and obviously don't understand trailbraking. The key, as you said, is not to do so abruptly. I really love the "early, lighter, and longer" for brake usage. This is something that should be taught at the beginning in the MSF BRC classes, in my humble estimation.
As always, Dave, you hit it out of the park with this phenomenal video! You're my hero of the riding world. I just told my wife that I wish I could spend like three months every single day with you and have you teach me. I've been riding a lot of years, but I'm never too proud to learn or recognize the incredible skills and knowledge of others, and you are at the top of the list, sir. I am riding a new Gold Wing and I trail brake every time I ride, but I'd love to have that close up and personal instruction where what I do can be seen and analyzed. Thing is, the nuances and handling characteristics of my new ride are much different than my old Suzuki Boulevard C90T cruiser, so I almost feel like a first-week MSF BRC rider again. LOL
Anyway, thanks again for sharing your wisdom! I ALWAYS come away knowing more and also being challenged to get better as a rider! Ride safe, ride well, and ride often!!
@@soujrnr we’re all still learning…
@@izzysykopth For sure! And we should never stop learning! Ride safe!
@@soujrnr I believe once you think you know it all you’ve failed…
@@izzysykopth So very true.
@@soujrnr I’m jealous (not in a green eyed monster kinda way 🤣) of that new Gold Wing. I’ll be 62 in December and I haven’t given up sport bikes yet but if and when I do I won’t be riding a Harley. Gold Wing all the way…
I agree 100%.
And I am really surprised that after 35 years of riding (and not watching much UA-cam until recently) I have learnt these techniques by myself. No classes attended. Like you said, it’s basic common sense. You slow down to turn. Same as a car. More finesse at the controls.
I do use the rear brake at the same time as I find it calms the bike down but you are right in saying the rear traction is limited when braking with the front.
The problem with all of this when it comes to beginners (my girlfriend started riding last year) is to make them understand that they have to be gentle with the controls.
I rode in the winter up north on ice on a river when I was young. 2 wheels. No studs. Just rubber. 5 winters.
You learn how to be smooth with the controls.
Beginners don’t have that chance to learn what slipping and sliding feels like.
You have to listen to what your front tire is trying to tell you. Feel is the name of the game. Hard to explain to someone just starting.
Stay safe out there.
Right. The concept is actually extremely intuitive. It's a tragedy that so many new rider programs teach it's "dangerous"
"You come around a corner and there's a car driving slowly" voiceover of video of a dude on a Goldwing waving you past. 😂😂😂
My friend rides a goldwing; it's very unlikely you'd ever come up behind him much less be able to get by.
You explained this so well I've been riding just like this for over 45 years. People are afraid to use the front brake when cornering for fear of it sliding out but if loaded up when entering corner then pressure relieved and controlled with slight steady pressure you are better prepared for the unexpected variables when riding on unridden roads. plenty of time to power on when you can see where your going safely.
Thank you for your videos on the various aspects of trail braking. No surprise, it works! I originally started riding dirt bikes in the desert in my 20’s. Then I moved on to road bikes where I took a riding course to get my motorcycle endorsement for my license. In desert riding we always covered the front brake with two fingers. But in the street bike training our instructor said, “all you dirt bike guys get your fingers off the front brake!” Also, “never brake into a corner!” Bad advice. After watching your videos I applied the methods you taught. It took a while but I “unlearned” the bad advice I was taught in the riding course and your methods have given me more confidence, safety and control in the corners. Thank you!!
Smooth and steady. I really never realized what I’ve done for years was called trail breaking.
Your still the best on UA-cam explaining CLEARLY what good motorcycle techniques really are. There are so many variations of the meaning of trail braking from the other “UA-cam experts”
For instance Motojitsu makes everything so complicated in his explanations that it makes the relatively easy and simple skills on motorcycles so complex. Your simple explanation s are so much more easier to understand and without the “ego” other UA-cam “experts” try to portray. Another example on other channels are explanations on cornering - making an easy skill sound So Hard. It must make new riders feel so inadequate. Even I that have been riding my whole life find the explanations so complex and hard to understand. Thank you once again for simple easy to understand, great clear and concise accurate information!! Its a real credit listening to you and it’s obvious your are very highly experienced something I really look up to. Feel very privileged to watch your videos
Thank you so much
Cheers from “downunder Australia 🇦🇺 👍
Great video mate, makes so much sense, when I first got my license, instructors told us never brake in a corner, but in actual fact they should have told us don't brake abruptly in corner, thx
Thanks. I've been working on this with my Vision for a while now. After watching one of your previous vids about trail braking.
Another great video! I'll add this: I don't think a lot of people understand just how much engine braking plays into their deceleration until they pop into a false neutral and have a near-heart attack at their entry speed..... speaking from experience, of course 😅
The converse is also true; I rode 2-stroke street bikes and scooters for years before getting my first 4-stroke bike, and was disturbed by how much engine braking there is. I currently have a Yamaha XSR900 which does NOT have user settings for engine braking, but the newer MT09 does. I can see myself cranking that engine braking figure all the way down.
@@langhamp8912 I was listening to the Oxley Bom podcast and they were saying the best MotoGP racers come up riding two-strokes because it teaches them so much more about how to work within the physics of how motorcycles turn and whatnot. Like you, I tend to turn-down my engine braking, and it's amazing when a rider is struggling with a corner, getting them to enter it a gear (sometimes two) higher than they were and they find the corner to smoother, more controlled, etc.
Engine braking is kinda like dragging a little bit of rear brake. A little bit is great, a whole lot can be unsettling.
This has completely transformed the way I ride. Going through the twisties has become even more enjoyable. Let’s be honest, at some point we all have been nervous riding on super twisty roads. Trail braking has put the fun back into it! Great video brother. Taking champ street in August!
Always great advice. No doubt, you've saved many individuals from disastrous riding issues. Thanks for caring!
Late apex, Slow in, Fast out, access the corner way before getting to it and use maintenance throttle once into the corner to stabilise the bike, l like you explanation of trail braking it really makes sense.
We don't need to be on the throttle to stabilize the bike. Is your bike unstable on the brakes? If it is, you need to get something checked out.
Totally unrelated...man those cattle grates/guards in UT were not what I was expecting...nor cattle just out roaming around. :) But man, was the scenery gorgeous!
Good stuff, Dave. While not the ideal way to learn about front braking, I was on a trip in Mexico when my rear brake failed and all I had was the front. I quickly found out that it wasn't the scary, "never do" scenario that had been drilled into me in my MSF course years ago. I've since have put front braking into my riding technique in the public road twisties. Your asterisk on "abruptly" is key. Thank you for that emphasis. You picked some great roads for this video. UT 72 and UT 12 are fantastic roads, with UT 72 being much less traveled (and with less deer than I've experienced on that aspen section of UT 12 between Boulder and Torrey).
I love it! The black cows on 12 totally keep you on your toes!
@@CanyonChasers And the same goes tor the ones on 72. Plus you can add cow pies to the list of road hazards when braking in a corner. 😂
@@AZGeek520 The ultimate "slippery thing" in a corner right!
Fine tuning methods! Thank you so much!🤙🏽🤙🏽💯
There is nothing dangerous in trail beaking on the road, it's the safest way to corner...
...my bike turns fine without using the brakes. ;)
I do trail brake if I find myself entering a corner too hot.
Exactly, it is an option if needed or wanted to do.
I spent a few months exercising trail braking (and I really like it) in nearly every corner. So my front tire ended up “v” shaped very fast.
Nice skill to have but not for every corner.
@@chriscorkasrear wheel trail braking is possible?
@@kwakithailand I've wondered about that; I use the rear brake consistently when not trail braking but don't touch the rear brake at all when trail braking. Dunno if that's right, but I've had sideways skids from very light trail braking.
@@kwakithailand Yes, we can trail brake with the rear brake. It's possible. It works, but the front brake works better. It's not _just_ about slowing down, its also about controlling the bikes geometry, the front tire contact patch, etc.
Great video!
I just made a trip from LV to Utah to ride these rides on Father’s Day! They are FANTASTIC roads and I cannot wait to get back to them!!
That is awesome!
It amazes me how many riders dont know about counter steering or trail braking. On a side note, ive ridden both of those roads numerous times. Hurricane, UT to Torrey, UT. Theyre awsome rides, but im back in Oregon now and there are some of the best roads in the country here... hidden gems. Love your content, every rider should be subscribed!!
I agree. Oregon has the best riding I know of in the lower 48 and Canadia!
I'm a new rider (less than a year) and was about to go wide in a corner the first time I went in faster than usual. Breaking gently in the turn saved me from an accident.
Yes! Thats great to hear! Crashing sucks!
BINGO! I started using trailbraking in my first year of riding and it contributes massively to safety and enjoyment. Glad you are OK and learning!
In a last case (really last!), it is possible to straighten the bike in a corner and brake as hard as possible (as much as there is places), then release the brakes and drop the engine through the rest of the corner. Twice in my driving career I saved myself from a crash/death that way, but I've been driving for 50 years, so it's only done when there's no other solution.
Thanks for this, I was wondering what the best technique would be if something unexpected happens in a corner. Have had a bike when I was 20 to 30 yrs old am 61 now and bought a bike recently.
Most every motorcycle answer starts with "It depends." So, yes, you can, but thats an pretty hard, technical, and unforgiving move. If you have the grip or have no other option then yeah. For example, I had to do that move at a recent track day where a rider came up underneath me in a corner to make a pass, but couldn't make it stick and started running wide. I had no place to go as he was blocking my turn, so my only option was to straighten and hammer the brakes. But because I was going much faster than 18mph, I promptly went off track. Because I was upright I was able to save it. But that was an extreme and rare case. I think that may be only the second time I've used it in well over 30 years of riding.
@@CanyonChasers That it should be used only when there is a situation where we have another way out, in 50 years, I only used it two times, but it probably saved my life twice. You should know that it can, but only a good experienced rider who will judge when to stop braking and "knock down" the motorcycle again. I once had to do it twice and it worked - I was left with a thrown bike leg when they didn't have an engine lock button on it, a long left curve about 120km/h, and a precipice of 200m on the right side. I braked hard, then hit the foot again and finally stopped on the edge of the precipice meybe 0,5-1,0m . Road around Adriatik sea 1980 year.
Sorry for bad english.
@CanyonChasers after watching a lot of UA-cam videos on 'trail braking', most vloggers seem to agree that the principles of trail braking are (1)to load the front tire for more grip and (2)it may decrease the distance between the front and rear tires improving the cornering capability of the bike (forgot the better term for it). Basing from this, i practiced and applied these principles to every cornering i made at almost all moving speeds when not contraindicated and found out that the improvement in ease and control during cornering is applicable to any speed in my daily city commute making me wonder why this was not taught at all as a basic riding skill.
I trail brake fine on my bicycle so it should work fine on the motorcycle as well. Be smooth and anything goes.
The concept you are missing is "turn-in point", which differs greatly depending on the corner. It's the point where the apex and exit can be identified, and the rider commits to the lean angle to steer through the corner, in one steering motion (theoretically one). An initial slighter lean is needed until the rider can see through the corner - this is where braking to set speed is done. In a DRB (decreasing radius bastard) that point is late into the corner. Speed should be set prior to turn-in initiation, brakes released prior to turn-in, and throttle applied after the bike is at the desired lean angle. Therefor, the throttle is NOT used to accelerate all the way through the corner. It is used after commitment to turn-in. The term "acceleration" is used lightly in the context as well. Initially only enough to take up driveline lash and settle the suspension, and gradually rolled on as the circumstance allows. Keith Code covered it well in 1993 with "twist of the Wrist ll", and years later commented to trail brake only when it's required.
Thanks for making and sharing this! Hands down the best advice video I’ve seen on trail braking!
Straightforward, concise, informative. I've gained so much from this channel.
I appreciate that!
Hello from Newfoundland.
Before I heard practice than implemented trail braking I don't know how safe and in control I was !!!!
It has changed and improved my riding ten folds easy the best tool I got throughout reading and taking advice from different outlets in my 25 years riding career .
Try it implement it right and reap the rewards.
Chuck
They think it's an "advanced technique" because they see professional racers use it. When in reality, we are taught to be smooth with our controls which really what trail braking is.
Yes, in a private lesson, my instructor told me NOT to trail brake as it was an advanced technique for experienced riders. Yet, I did it naturally on the course.
You always have the best and easy definition for trailbreaking.
Last weekend i was doing 65 around a backroad corner, four deer bolted across the road and I slammed on the brakes both front and back coming to a fast stop down to 5 mph. Luckily I have abs and came to a smooth straight in my lane position stop. My Voyager slightly straightened up as I quickly slowed to the 5 mph. The buy behind me who does not have abs smoked up his rear tire and skid sideways and past me up by a few yards. He's been riding for 65 years so he did well in preventing laying the bike down. Neither of us hit any of the deer. Me only riding for 4 years have the abs working on my behalf. So braking in corners can be done one way or the other, especially if you have no choice.
I’m really inspired by these videos about trail braking. I have practiced a little.
It’s reassuring that the uncertainty about the corners is normal.
I do worry about my bike at times as it has CBS - but this doesn’t seem to affect my trail braking efforts.
You are correct saying we trail brake already.
We trailbrake coming to a red light. we see a red, we apply the brakes smoothly and ease off until we come to a stop under control. This is done without thinking about it, trailbraking for a corner is the same technique, ease on the brakes, then ease off the brakes as needed to keep the motorcycle under control and not go wide.
Well said!
If traveling at legal speeds most often you will not need to use brakes in a corner at all. This assumes reducing your speed to legal limit before the corner. If there's an obstacle in the corner it is of course a different story and the reason why you should never open the throttle before you see the exit of the corner. When it comes to oil spills or ice and such on the road, the safest thing to do is to sit home and watch youtube rather then ride 😁 Good video, thank you.
That's because you take good lines. If you take good lines, you don't usually benefit from braking into a corner, even at more than double the speed limit.
But go back to the speed limit and turn in too early. Now you have to brake into the corner to make it safely. If you routinely trail brake in street riding, it's mostly likely because you turn in too early.
Good words bud! 35 years for me and I told my kids and friends to read the corner and push the grip gently and feel the corner.
My father was a truck driver, i have learn to drive a car from 10 years old, the only think i remember is slow down before the corner !!! Am keeping it 20 years now as rider and i have zero accidents !!!! Am using my brakes even on the corners and am enjoying the rides way more cause i have confidence cause i feel safety !!!! That was and awsome video !!!!
I love it!!! Most folks do it intuitively (until they’re told it’s dangerous).
I learned years ago from Twist of the Wrist to essentially break the corner into 3 parts. The first is the slowing down, trail braking until my fork compression from braking matches the needed compression from cornering
Part 2 is to catch the throttle and wait for the clear exit path.
Part 3 is rolling on throttle to give me the acceleration I want.
I found that this strategy even works in cars.
You have lots of good solid advice, thanks.
Great video as always, thanks and this is very needed for so many new and old riders who still live in wrong impression that you should never touch front brake in corner. PS love your Strada, actually called dealership last week and wanted to order new V2S to hear and stay surprised that model cannot be ordered anymore as apparently they are coming up with the new model, for which there is still no info about as of yet.
Interesting. I've been considering a V4/Pikes Peak. It's kind of hard to imagine them abandoning the V2.
@@CanyonChasers for a new model apparently, also V2, let' see
@@Igor12822 I'm sure you saw the Panigale V2 final edition. Things are changing at Ducati and I don't know what to make of things. I'm going to need a new bike here - and really don't know which way to go.
Another very interesting video on cornering. But, what I am still concerned about, which I have not seen anyone address on YT, is the danger of engaging the front brake and causing the bike to go out of control. I think the term is "binding", when you rapidly slow down the "forward" motion - i.e. the component of the bike's motion that is going in the direction of the curve - and cause the momentum of the rear 3/4 of the bike to go forward - i.e. in the direction it was pointed just before you hit the front brake. That means you have to go off the road, our of control. It also means you have lost traction so the tires are not gripping the road surface. This happens because you are in a curve going too fast. Canyon makes the case that you must at that point use the front brake delicately and with control, without panicing. But if you are going too fast at that point - too fast to make the curve without crashing - and if using either front or rear brakes will cause more compression of the front and more traction on the front tire and less on the rear - then I still think the only recourse you have other than panicing and wiping out - is to use more rear brakes as best you can and maybe slow your momentum so you have a slower crash.
It’s not addressed because the rider would have had to make a lot of mistakes to get to the point you are worried about. Going exceedingly fast and then waiting until mid corner to mash the front brake.
This video focuses on a strategy so that never happens. Slowing into corners isn’t a reaction to bad judgement. It’s out strategy for every corner. We go to the brakes when we are nervous. We don’t wait until we are in panic mode. We go to the brakes earlier, lighter and for longer. This is how motorcycles are designed to turn so they turn better with more stability this way.
Get a BMW GS, it has combined brakes, with clever electronics distributing the brake power between front and rear breaks on demand. And the Telelever front suspension pretty much prevents the compression of forks when breaking. And the curve ABS does it's job, when needed. These all builds up your confidence in couple of years at a high level, because you learn that you can break in curve as much as needed (dry asphalt) safely, in case you enter in a curve too fast. I guess many other modern bikes too, except the Telelever. If you got a 25 years old Harley, be careful. :)
Those coyote and roadrunner cartoons... WERE FILMED IN THE REAL WORLD?!?! Amazing! EDIT: Also... great video and subbed!
Thanks for the sub! Welcome along for the ride!
Great video. I have come to these same conclusions after years of riding, and having been taught not to brake in corners.
The issue here in northern England is narrow roads with poor visibility on most corners, without this technique we wouldn’t make much progress. I’m an experienced rider but I think as usual you give some great advice to all levels of experience on the road. I use two fingers to front brake on my lovely Multistrada in nearly every corner but it’s gentle and progressive, to be honest I very seldom touch the rear brake apart from controlling front end dive in heavy traffic which is rare around here. My instructor told me slow and gentle into a bend and as the visibility reduces, and then accelerate as the ‘vanishing point’ moves away as the road straightens and the view opens up, eventually it becomes second nature.
I absolutely love the UK - especially Scotland and the highlands. Those single track roads with passing places are amazing. But you are exactly right. Except, I'm really soft of "vanishing point." I think it's a great clue, but it's wrong an awful lot. I've been in lots of corners where the vanishing point is moving away, but the corner is actually still getting tighter. So we coach to just wait until you can see the exit before actively accelerating.
@@CanyonChasers I’ve never really trusted it, my back yard is Northumberland and the Scottish Borders, all great biking roads that lead to the stunning west coast of Scotland and the Highlands, I’m a very lucky boy, keep up the great content👍.
I've found that covering your front break leads naturally to trail braking. And vice versa. Thanks as always for the fun, informative videos.
Thank you!! It also leads to less abrupt braking because we tend to start braking sooner.
68 here/44 still riding; all sport. I was taught to SQUEEZE the front brake- NEVER EVER GRAB; Front= 80%+ of total braking available…to LOAD the front end, giving me LEAN. Also…dragging the rear brake through tight corners as needed. ***. I took a Braking Class decades ago- with the class bikes in cages- with outrigger caster wheels. We had to go 60 and lock it up. On purpose. Great lesson for stopping distances, ABS vs Non, etc.
The MSF needs to update their outdated curriculum. There so much bureaucracy and egos the real focus on safety cant really be accomplished. Solid video thanks for sharing it!
Great point
Mindfulness when riding is an amazing thing.
Feeling the road…feeling the front tyre contacting the road surface, feeling the road surface.
That’s how you know become one with your bike .
Those moments of flow state are amazing.
I started riding as a teen back in the last 60's, quit when I turned 50 and then bought an adventure bike after a 20 year break. All my buddies were "you gotta learn how to trail brake"???
What?
In all these years I've ridden street, dirt, quad, cafe, three wheelers, early sport bikes and old brit thumpers. And lately Ive gotten into side by sides and casual 4 wheeling.
I raced for 1 season on my CR500 in the desert.
The problem with trail braking is not only the definition but the wild mix of differing techniques across all the bikes we all ride. I'll go faster in the corner and use the rear wheel to turn the bike in dirt, and have even used that at high speed on dirt to save my life, literally. Using the front brake on downhills was not what I was learned as a teen and it took me a while to relearn that habit.
So when a street rider gives me advice I have to consciously think about his experiences and blend what I know with what he's saying
Of course it's been 45+ years since I rode my 750 Norton so my tarmac canyon carving was on old tech tires and drum front brakes and those experiences slow me down on todays road bikes.
I guess what I'm actually saying is advice from other riders needs to be taken with caution as you might not know his level or type of experience which forms his opinion.
I read about braking in a real paper magazine 30+ yrs ago and I still use this when I am not rushed or panicked, just play with this cornering technique, and on several corners with steeply decreasing radius, it's worked.
Go into the corner, roll off throttle, lightly grab front brake then lightly drag rear brake while gently using more throttle. As you gain experience you can increase control pressures. This loads the front tire even more than normal trail braking and stiffens all the bikes suspension, front and rear and the bike can corner at higher speeds or turn in sharper.
Of course this came from a professional sport bike racer for use on the track.
So, should I use the experience gained from an experienced winning racer?
Probably not on the street or the dirt for that matter.
But, knowing and playing with this technique very lightly has given me another tool.
Please remember this advice, advice is worth what you paid for it....
The big debate I've ever seen with trail braking is less whether it works (universal favor in my circles), and more where the etymology comes from. I was taught that it's because loading and tightening up the front suspension trims the front geometry, including the trail, in order to make for more precise steering input, rather than anything to do with "trailing on/off" the brake
It's a great question. Trailing off brake pressure vs. Reducing Trail. I kinda' wish it didn't have a name because we get "drag the trailing brake" "only on dirt trails" It's not an intuitive term.
Speaking of slippery corners. One time I was riding in Northern Colorado in a Natl. Forest on a windy road in the rain. I was being cautious as I went around a curve and there was a pile of cow stuff in the road. My rear tire slipped out some but I regained control and when I looked up, there was a cow napping in the road. Good thing I was going slow enough. If I would have even touched my front brake I would have gone down. I never use my front brake in the rain on a curvy road.
1.28 in , I brake in corners . I downshift in corners , the worse that happens if I don t match rev enough the ass end kicks out a bit , and its fun. As a kid I rode my bmx in the canadian winter , it was a blast.
Interesting and makes complete sense. I remember as a child flying down hills on my pedal bike enjoying the speed whilst gently squeezing the front brake into the bends and we never came off ! Surely a motorbike is the same …
Right!?!
good info, here in southern Spain the country roads can get very polished after 6-8 mths with no rain, in hairpins I gently trail brake and if any hazards like oil slicks or tar snakes i may reduce fronk brake and apply slightly more rear, but on my old 916 ST the 320mm front brakes are very linear and powerfull, whereas the single 245mm rear is nearly an ornament, plus Battleaxe S22 tyres have amazing grip as i do not have ABS ( nore do i want it)😂😂
Smooth inputs!
Thanks! Your videos are always informative and very right on!
Wow! Thank you!! Glad you like them! I always look forward to your comments.
Your best video! Great coverage of the myriad arguments, sayings, and outright insanity that people on all sides spout on this topic. Now we have something to confidently send to people. Thanks!
Thank you!
As a biker with over 51 years riding experience and averaging over 330 days, a year on motorcycles, I-grade the presenter, a 95 out of 100. The only thing I add is that my bike weighs 800 pounds and I weigh 250 pounds and I have my rear brake lightly mimic my front brake action in fast curves. I feel this planes me out and anchors me once again thank you for the outstanding presentation.
You sir, are exactly on point! Yes, bigger, heavier, longer, lower bikes, the rear brake is much more useful because there is less weight shift to the front wheel.
great practical advise as always - thanks again for another informative video.
I experienced the lack of trail breaking on my Harley low rider on a closing radius corner in May 2023 thinking I could stay on the throttle and add lean angle. Bad idea and I had 49,000 miles on top of two bikes at the time.
Two problems. Too much speed at 37
mph, the bracket for forward controls/floorboards. When I hit the bracket, I lost the rear tire and low sided across the lane into a ditch. Ouch. Time stands still, although you don’t…going horizontally at 37 mph BTW. Don’t try it.
I Didn’t scratch myself due to extreme gear but broke 4 ribs (thank goodness in the front, not back). FYI, because of AGATT I went home put on a tux and went to a gala. Unreal day. Gear? Top of the line Harley leather jacket, fully armored. Kevlar jeans, leather knuckle protector gloves, Harley high ankle boots. Full face helmet.
Lesson? Trail break, see the exit. What I saw was pavement. Embarrassing as hell and a bit painful. Informative? Incredibly.
Great video, thumps up! One addition from my personal point of view: never ever use front brake in a close serpentine when going upwards... because that will load the front, stiffen it up and in extreme situations, like Stelvio for example, it will make you going on the opposite lane.
I loved to break in corners with my Ducati 900 with warm tyres on good surfaces, feeling how the bike wanted to go straight and push the inner hand to keep in lean .... great feeling of control. Took years of practice
If all other ways of braking are taught correctly , [other then trail braking ]and that is anything like the slow lean press ands roll. then there is no added danger to any bend What goes with that system is that as one approaches any bend and slows using throttle and or braking on is looking for the limit point. That is as far a the eye can see into any bend. You can't see further and it's that limit point that give you the correct entry speed for that bend. Its simply a fact that you should only be able to brake in the distance that you can see to be clear [ that limit point] and on you side of the road.
Others who advocate trail braking try to miss that one thing that will keep us all safe on any bend. The limit point is the distance that you can stop in so it becomes your speed limit for that bend. if you are still approaching that bend and the limit point is staying in one place then you need to slow more. If and when the limit point starts to move away from you and round the bend with you that is your safe distance and thus speed to take that bend in. Then you remain a constant from it and ride round the bend. If at any time the limit point is moving closer it means that the bend is tightening and one must slow accordingly.
Usually after the apex the limit point goes away from one and it can be seen that and the road is straightening out and then you are coming out of the bend. At all times whilst in the bend with the bike leaning over you should be keeping the same distance to your limit point, you are on an open and steady throttle and constant speed, not accelerating.
That is until the limit point opens up at the end of the bend ahead,. then and only then when your bike is almost upright and the road is straight ahead then can you open her up. to your required speed the bend now being behind you.
Cool. So the limit point is getting closer to me? What do I do if I’m supposed be on the throttle throughout the entire corner?
Limit point is a great tool. But it’s not the absolute answer to every cornering problem. Just like countersteering isn’t the answer to every cornering problem.
@@CanyonChasers Agreed but unlike the advice of being on the throttle and accelerating throughout a bend in with use of the limit point one maintains merely a constant throttle, a positive one but without any acceleration. When a bike is leant over and counter steered into a bend its contact patch goes from its original state being central to the tyre to being one on the sidewall of a tyre and thus on that sidewall one would be circumnavigating a lesser circumference per revs done. That means travelling less distance per revs being done thus slowing down slightly which is what one doesn't really want to do, So the slight increase of revs at the time of the turn is to counteract that natural slowing mechanism and to maintain that now constant speed throughout the bend. That is until after the apex and standing the bike up and when one now has a straight ahead and then one can accelerate out of that bend. If one sees the limit point getting closer one knows that it is necessary to slow and one can do several things like de accelerate or counter steer, change course etc. to alleviate the danger of over shooting said bend.
I think you will enjoy this video as I debunk all those misunderstood physics you are talking about with lots of sources from researchers in the netherlands, the UK and South Africa: ua-cam.com/video/j8JEgkKMrcs/v-deo.htmlsi=V4ue9kIaEylob6yG
I did enjoy this excellent explanation of trail braking. Home Run! 👍
This is the same thing as heel/toe shifting while when you are approaching the maximum brake pressure for the corner in a car. Right hand instead of right foot instead of left hand to clutch instead of left foot. Slow to the safe speed for that corner while trailbraking until you are ready to start accelerating. Reducing risk in a controlled manner. Kyle Wyman does this with an almost 650lb bagger racebike on the track to maintain traction and load on the front tire. The suspensions and tires are literally designed to have traction during braking force in the corner and not before singularly. Good lesson sir.
What Kyle does on that bagger is such a great example of what _any_ motorcycle is capable of when the proper techniques are used. BTW, he does the same thing at Champ Schools in a passenger van full of students. It's amazing how it all kinda' works the same.
I find my entry speed based on what I can see, then drive through the corner from there. I find my entry speed, drag the brake and increase the throttle a bit to hold it while the front end is loaded before I enter the corner. I drive through the corner using the brake to adjust my speed and rarely move the throttle until I am releasing the brake and exiting the corner... I guess you think that's wrong but since bringing that off road technique to the street, I have not once overrun a corner and am a lot more confident with my bike. NOTE, sounds to me like CC doesn't endorse this full time braking in corners, readers and followers of CC should take his credentials and experience into consideration and probably stick to his recommended variation of the technique.
Right, there are some programs that endorse this. It's called "pressure braking" or "brottle" But, it's not just me who warns against it. All the top riding programs and top racers are against it. In fact, the idea first came about when someone misquoted Freeddy Spencer in their book. Freddy was talking about overlapping throttle and rear brake to control wheelspin and wheelies on 500GP two stroke race bikes. But because it was published - here we are.
Freddy, as well as Sylvain Guintoli, Scott Russel and many others have said over and over again that we should NEVER overlap throttle and front brake. You can find many of these video's on UA-cam.
We can get away with overlapping front brake and throttle at slower speeds and/or when we have good grip, but outside of ideal conditions it quickly falls apart. The throttle is telling the bike to accelerate and go straight. The front brake is telling the bike to slow down and turn. Putting these two forces against each other puts the bike in a state of imbalance where it doesn't want to do either. It's the cause of a lot of crashes in racing and track days when riders accidentially overlap throttle and front brake and because the bike doesn't want to slow down or turn, they end up crashing.
Now, if you are talking about overlapping throttle and rear brake, thats a totally different thing. But I would STRONGLY encourage you to abandon overlapping with front brake. We really only want to invest in techniques that work when the speed is up or the grip is down, when things matter most, not just when conditions are ideal.
@@CanyonChasers Wow, this is gonna' be a task, trying to erase years of training myself to drive through corners with the front end dipped and the rear wheel pushing to decrease rake, length of bike, and help with the turning radius. We used this technique in motocross for years and I naturally brought it to the street. Not at first only after I over drove a couple of corners, something I have not done since transferring the technique to my Road King. I guess I am still trying to make excuses but I will surrender to your background and experience and try to change. I guess I am gonna' have to go back and watch the vid a few times then go out and see what happens. Since a life of racing I continually train when I am driving two or four wheels for that matter and have thousands of miles dedicated to the old ways, this is gonna' be a task. Willing to learn though, example, after 50 years of riding in shorts and sheaks, I finally armored up this year and didn't have to crash to make the decision. lol. Thanks for the guidance, see your vids soon...
Finally, someone who provides the correct trail braking definition.
All good, I have braked into corners on the road and downshifted because I had to, there can be many reasons, for example you spot an oil or damp patch on your path while you are at lean. When you close the throttle and coast, you have engine braking, but how much that depends on what kind of bike, the load, etc. When I am on the road, I ride exactly the same way I ride on the track, but less. It's not to show off, it's stuff that works, but less speed means less braking, less lean angle, less body movement and so on.
But, what you didn't say in the video and I was expecting to see, is what to do to brake while you are already into a corner if you must. Sure, be gentle and don't snatch, but that's not all of it.
I’m from Switzerland. People who say ‘never brake in a corner’ must be from places with straight, flat roads. Full-braking-before-tipin is trained and tested here, but in practice I believe trail braking is much better.
Although my native language is not English I understand your videos and learned so much from you Thank you great man cheers from Turkiye