Where are the many third-party manufacturers and the huge selection of modules? An open standard by itself is meaningless. There must be many offers on the market from different manufacturers; then modular laptops will make sense.
@@the_cluster CoolerMaster has a Mainboard case, as for the expansion bay modules, there's a lot of community made ones, not a big repertoire but it is growing, considering Framework is very niche.
The benefit of the framework is that when you need to upgrade, you can just upgrade the part you need, not replace the whole laptop, as you need to do with other laptops.
Its refreshing to see apple centric content creators featuring framework. I'm not surprised though, given the abominations you create with DosDude from time to time haha
We will see the development of these devices. But I think that most of laprop-users are going to use a laptop out of the box and use them for several years. Updates are usually then not required.
@@alexprivates356 That's the thing,there's no need to buy another laptop in 5 years :) Wanna get back on the latest hardware? Go buy a new GPU or CPU or RAM :D
As others have said: please do more research. The CPU mainboard, the gpu, and even the expansion ports are open and published designs other companies can use. Community members are already making their own designs around this. This should have been very obvious at least with the expansion ports all use USB C to connect to the computer.
I think the key phrase is "other companies CAN use". There's no guarantee the design will catch on. In fact, I think it's likely it *won't* catch on. Other companies aren't going to want a modular laptop to succeed. It goes against their business models. And the Framework is a very niche product, so you're not likely to see big manufacturers making components compatible with it. It's not a bad idea in principle, but will Framework be around a few years from now when you want to upgrade? That's the question I'd be asking. Because while their design might be open, their business model at least partially depends on you buying your parts from them. The whole point of buying a laptop like this is upgradability, so they want to be your upgrade path.
@@BrianHartman Laptop manufacturers won't but there's plenty of third-party peripheral manufacturers out there who have no reasons not to produce parts for any kind of laptop if they consider it financially viable.
I was actually just thinking about that - how well supported is the hardware under Linux? I could imagine this running Zorin OS 17 - that would be one slick beast.
Apple would never do this, but at least make the RAM and SSD upgradable. Like it's not even that difficult anymore especially now they've thickened up the machines a bit. My 2012 13" Non-Retina MBP is still my daily driver because of it.
I’d even accept just upgradable storage like retina MacBooks used to have, and like the Mac Pro currently has. We know it’s possible, please just let it happen 😅
@@lukemiani Exactly. SSD’s die horribly due to SWAP and other things pretty quickly. It would just make sense - Although with the new RAM sticks that just came out for laptops Apple really have no excuse especially in pro consumer machines.
@@itsmilan4069 Intel core ultra 200 explained benefit for memory on package ( closer better efficiency ) where soldering in PCB and sodimm can't do that Best option we can have will be camm2 which have better tracing for high speed design, d5 8000 achievable atm and it is replaceable
@Sofus-fu4roYou get what you pay for. I love the idea of customizable self built laptops but what you get with Apple silicon is far better and justifies every penny, if you do serious work on it of course. Apple silicon is on another level and having the unified RAM built in is part of its magical performance. But the prices are not user friendly and they can make the storage upgradable. That’s my take on Apple. Unlike jobs, Cook puts share holders before customers. Anyways, I won’t invest a penny in any Windows laptop including this framework. Besides, I don’t like its bulky sharp exterior design and the lack of dark/ black colors.
@fmax6000 It is not worth every penny. It can't run Windows natively and basically had to be COMPLETELY reversed engineered to get Linux even somewhat working, it is WAY too expensive for what you get, and not having removable SSD basically seals me and many business not buying any modern Mac (the latter for IT data retention policies). Personally, once Steve Jobs died and Scott Forstall was fired, Apple slowly went downhill. Apple Silicon, specifically the M1 Pro & Max, was a bit of an exception, but with the other OEMs responding to Apple Silicon better than Apple innovating it, I can't justify Apple's hardware or software anymore.
I'm glad they are getting more exposure. I hope Framework become the Linux of hardware where companies and individuals contribute to the ecosystem so that we can reduce so much e-waste and improve the components.
@@willm5032 Yea, I feel it will go through the same stuff (probably more) like the Framework 13 hinges/top cover issues. I had a Framework 13 but due to subpar battery life and firmware updates, I am on a used Thinkpad instead.
I have the 16 inch model, and it's much more polished than the lemons sent to Sean Hollister of The Verge & Just Josh. In fact, if it had more powerful GPU options and a touch screen option, it would be perfect.
The 16" is a more complicated design since they had to engineer a way to upgrade the GPU. Maybe in the future a 15/16" model with just integrated graphics like on the 13 would be warranted, they call call it a 16 "Lite" or "Slim" or something to differentiate it from the model with upgradable graphics.
One more thing. Mainboard is not locked into anything. So if you upgrade mainboard in the laptop you can DIY media center for your TV from the old center with magic of 3D printing.
12:45 they actually charge you $200 for only 8GB of RAM. The laptop already comes with 8GB and in order to go to 16GB one has to pay exorbitant $200 to get there.
@@maskedrebel9670except I think needing to add the ram later but not needing it at the beginning of the machines life is a very rare use case. Upgradable ssd is more important imo, but obviously both would be nice.
Except you can at least order the laptop without any ram by selecting "bring your own", and buying ram elsewhere. I don't see why Framework even has RAM and SSD options on their site, no one's going to buy them at that price
I think you can't blame Framework for battery life and speakers since every other Windows PC is similarly limited. And the device is more expensive since they have to get a lot of parts custom made instead of going with common designs the way other laptop manufacturers do. The price difference isn't too outrageous either. If repairable designs become not common then Framework's costs and prices come down as well.
Exactly. And with other brands, if they do what Dell did with their XPS lineup and make it worse, you do have other options, but you do have to go with another brand. Heck, Framework was the first to have a USB-C PD 3.1 charger. And they just announced a new 120 hz screen, webcam, and Intel Meteor Lake CPU options for the 13 inch model. And of course, if you have the older models, you can use everything except for the motherboard and the RAM (because Meteor Lake requires DDR5).
Framework is also a tiny company so within reason we absolutely should cut them slack in areas where it may be challenging to get components economically, especially anything custom. Like the new high res display having some weird rounded corners (though maybe Framework could offer rounded bezels for those screens since that would be more cost effective than trying to get a custom square screen)
Battery life, fair enough, but I don't get the comment about speakers. Apple's Intel MacBooks had decent speakers too. Doesn't have anything to do with whether a laptop uses x86 or ARM.
@@axi0matic I think most of it has to do with software tuning though. Theres a reason that apple has an entire audio testing facility for their devices. On the intel macbooks, if you ran bootcamp to use windows, the speakers would sound so much worse on windows, almost as bad as a normal windows laptop. I don't think this is coincidental, as macOS seems to have many speaker optimizations built into it for their laptops.
While the Framework is often more expensive than the competition at low specs (RAM in particular, storage a little less so), when you increase those it becomes much cheaper. A Framework Laptop 13 (Ryzen) with the maximum specs you can get first-party is within $100 of the highest-end M3 MacBook Air you can get, and will have 8/3 as much RAM and twice the storage. The XPS 13 is cheaper, but still has half the storage; and if you drop the storage on the Framework down to 2TB, it becomes nearly $100 cheaper than the XPS. Matching the max specs of the MacBook as close as possible, it's nearly $550 cheaper.
Yeah. Framework with the Qualcomm chip is going to be bonkers. Being able to switch out the motherboards/CPUs every few years is gonna make everyone else's builds pretty unappealing.
It would be cool if framework made a flat module that covered the entire keyboard and touchpad area so people who want to use an external keyboard can just not buy a keyboard or touchpad and just plonk it on their laptop.
I hate touchpads and always use a corded mouse, because that's how I've interfaced with PC's for nearly 35 years. If the Framework came with the keyboard where the Touchpad is, or the entire upper deck was a larger keyboard and numpad, with no touchpad, that would suit me just fine.
Loving my Framework 16, had it for 2 months already and it's awesome. And the modules are completely open, no proprietary software or anything. I love using them for things other than the laptop. Oh, I need a C to A adapter? I can borrow that. Oh, need USB C to Displayport or HDMI? I can borrow that too. The fan can get a bit loud, but it's tolerable, especially with headphones. It's crazy to think that the $200 that Apple charges to add 8GB of memory is the same amount I spent on the 64GB I got for my Framework 16. And the $200 to add another 256GB of storage is more than what I spent on the 2TB secondary drive in it.
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl go ahead, you like to see your hardware slowly get more and more incompetent while your frame rates in games suffer and you cant do a single thing about it, go ahead and see how the ram choice you made to save a few extra bucks a year ago is now haunting your performance and you cant upgrade any of the ram modules, go ahead and outlive your macbook to see the day you have to throw it away entirely when it no longer gets updates and the linux support is so shit because of the closedsource nature of macbooks while you scrounge up the last few pennies in your couch cushions to make your latest laptop mortgage payment to apple. go ahead.
Framework are the second people to sell over 100w power bricks for USB C, apple being the first. I wish more manufacturers did that instead of chunky bricks with a proprietary slot
I got one of the initial 15" 11th gen intel frameworks. I like and support the idea, but it had too many design issues for me to consider using it as a serious laptop option. The modules are constantly powered on at all times, even when the laptop is shut down, so they leech power constantly. If I don't unplug the modules, or swap them out with usb-c to c fillers, combinations of a usb-a port, hdmi, and card reader will burn through 20% battery overnight *While powered off*. If I only use my laptop during the weekends when I'm away from my work PC, the thing is constantly dead. There's been some experimental firmware updates users can attempt to flash onto older modules. Though, last I checked a sizable portion of those that tried mention it bricked their module, or had little to no effect. On that similar note, the rechargeable cmos/bios/whatever they're calling it battery drains rapidly while the machine is powered off. 3-4 days powered off and the laptop wont boot without an AC adapter plugged in, regardless of main battery charge. For instance, if i remove all the modules, power the machine down at 100% and wait a few days, the main battery would be at something like 95-97%, but the machine will not turn on without the AC adapter. Apparently the cmos battery keeps alive some memory timing configurations and other flags that require a first time setup / diagnostic be run, which wont happen without a AC adapter plugged in. The cmos/bios battery only charges while the laptop is plugged in, but only so long as it hasn't drained below a certain threshold. If it is too drained, it wont charge. The only way to resolve this issue is to take the machine apart, remove the cmos battery, wait a few minutes, plug it back in and charge the laptop for 24 hours. Massive PITA. Basically it's never been a laptop I could trust to just pick up and take with me somewhere without spending several minutes to diagnose and make sure it isn't going to lock up on me, or have no charge. Carrying a dongle has been more convenient than trying to juggle the modules in order to maintain a decent battery life, completely defeating the purpose of the modules to begin with.
I have the 1st gen 13 also, they fixed the problem with the 3-4 day drain issue in future releases. There's hacks out there too if you really really wanted to fix it or pay a repair shop. Yes it's annoying. I have had worse problems with my Dell laptop for work FWIW.
Having worked at Apple for several years, the rate at which people came in with broken Macbooks only to then have to pay close to retail value to get them "fixed" thoroughly put me off of ever buying one for myself again.
I am torn. I love my macs. But love the idea that frameworks uses on upgradable parts. As costs keep going up knowing I can just upgrade a part in 5 plus years to continue using the device.
@ok-tr1nw All the schematics of the Fairphone 5 are fully available. They actively support alternative Android versions. I myself installed /e/-OS and they even allow you to relock your bootloader afterwards.
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl how's it a failure when so many people are into it? Fairphone may be a niche product, but Framework seems to be super popular already.
@ok-tr1nw Fairphone is very much about longevity and easy diy repairability as well. Maybe not as open as Framework, but they support third party operating systems (Murena). In Germany, there's another similar manufacturer: Shift. They provide schematics and also officially support alternative operating systems. Everything else is very similar to what Fairphone is doing.
@ok-tr1nw i think those two companies are similar in their soul for repairability aspect. both strike to be upgradable and repairable. of course there's more parts for laptops to upgrade than phones i guess. i use iphone and whole apple ecosystem but if fairphone just had ios that apple software i would gladly switch. and on the other hand if apple was more modular and sustainable i would be 10x happy and proud to use their products.
This is almost like a macOS vs Windows discussion, I really love what Framework is doing these machines, in fact they're literally fulfilling what the EU is claiming: "The right ro repair", which means that can be at least many components replaceable in the device DIY. But in the other side, there are many customers which have already involved with the Apple ecosystem and how it works seamlessly in between so there are pros and cons for both sides. I truly believe that is depending on what you do and how are you gonna use your laptop for.
The best investment is a slightly USED laptop that was well spec'd. It's still future proof for a number of years. Gets updates. Didn't cost its weight in GOLD! And initial depreciation is like a new car. Same strategy applies to cars. Let the first buyer take the big depreciation hit. They likely have a ton of diposable money. They will get bored. A new model will come out. Then you get something near mint, lots of life left, for a lot less. There are plenty of people who replace their iPhones yearly. 😱 It's just bragging rights. Done't be that person. I'm not saying buy ancient garbage. Just be a Smart Consumer. 👍🏼
1. GREAT video Luke! Your best one in a couple of months! 2. I had a Pismo 20 years ago. Back around 1999 to 2000, Apple was huge into upgradability. You could easily switch out the hard drive, ram, CD drive, DVD drive and more! Hell, you could even upgrade from the 400MHZ to the 500MHZ processor because the chip was on a card that snapped in! If you didn't need a DVD or CD drive, you could rock TWO BATTERIES AT THE SAME TIME and thus double your time without a plug. Did I mention it also had an airport card? That Pismo was no joke. It was such a versatile machine, much more so than the Titanium that replaced it. Don't get me wrong I loved the Titanium, but if you were around back then and using laptops, the Pismos and Lombards were jaw dropping. People were stunned by them and how they could do anything. I know these things because I sold them at CompUSA. You should do a video about the Pismo sometime.
The performance difference and fan noise are not specific to Framework, but a reality on any similarly specced Windows laptop. Even my i5 based Acer Aspire sounds like a Jet Fighter when booting Windows, but is nearly silent when running Linux.
MXM is still used. The issue is that is rare. Also, a lot of vendors have whitelists, so, for example, a MXM GPU from Dell will not work in a HP motherboard.
I like the idea of modularity for devices, but the downside of that route is being suck in that form factor for all accessories. Side by side though, the Framework looks very dated compared to laptops by other brands, not just Apple laptops.
I bought my Framework Laptop 13 not long after it was introduced in the 3rd batch. Its been amazing to upgrade the speakers, the CPU/RAM (Intel 11th gen to AMD Ryzen) over the course of ownership. I am excited that they are coming out with a full size SD card reader soon. It was a sad exclusion when I got it and it's so cool I can have the same laptop 3-4 years later and fix the port situation to better suit my needs.
Anyone who knows Framework strategy and design, please help me out. For how longe is a model upgradeable? I mean, will there be a limit in time when new parts are not going to fit into older models? Is the company clear about this or is the promise of upgradeability into the future a vague one? Thanks.
They have been upgradable since intel 11th gen, they've gotten all the way to 13th gen, they have a few ryzen 7000 series and they just announced a Intel Core Ultra mainboard. They offer a small case made by CoolerMaster if you want to repurpose your old mainboard and you can 3D print anything. Also a few upgrades for the other components.
SSD and ram are based on industry standards and are replaceable with off-the-shelf. Framework's main board has been the same through 11, 12, and 13 gen Intel and 7000 series AMD and I don't see any signs of them changing. The modules are just type-c adapters with a certain form-factor. They have had engineering challenges with certain modules fitting, see Ethernet and their videos on the SD modules but they're all still compatible with the initial design. They also have strong incentives not to change the form factor in incompatible ways until it's unavoidable since it would destroy point 1 of their brand identity, upgradability and repairability.
I use the MacBook Pro 14” and I use an external monitor if I really need a larger screen. The purpose of the laptop is to not use desktop stuff and not have the laptop unwieldy.
It’s great for some people, like folks who customize and upgrade their car, but most people just want a car that is elegant, good-performance, and reliable with no need or desire to customize or upgrade it. 99% of the time (when actually using the laptop), the ability to upgrade it is not relevant. So, great for people who love to tinker as much as being productive. Not as desirable (because thicker, heavier, less battery life, need to assemble, etc.) for people who simply want to have the best user experience while playing or getting stuff done on their laptop.
I would go for a frameworks. The initial cost is a little higher but if you reuse the connectors, chassis, screen keyboard, and so on, it makes keeping the unit up to date affordable.
no, thats the dumbest third grade engineering one could possibly do, complete failure and a good lesson why things are how they are because this will fail in a spectacular way
@@XGD5layer the company will probably go bust because its a niche product that normal people will not buy and then they will all go into the bin because you cant buy new parts for it anymore, probably
@@zzz-pe3mp Idk its been pretty long, considering that this is a privatized company with very few investors it seems to have only grown in the past 4 years. I don't see it dying anytime soon
Memory already sits on the Apple Silicon SoCs. It's not soldered to the logic board. Intel announced the same. Unfortunately that's simply cheaper and more power-efficient aka "The future" 😮
Ive been using mine for about a month. Its amazing! Way better than Ithought it would be. Its very fast and the screen is great. The speakers are really good for a windows laptop. The battery life is ok. I'm hoping they get the snapdragon x elite mainboard and I can just easy upgrade for better battery
Steve Jobs made no secret that he was very much influenced by the automobile industry. The way we 'consume' cars demonstrates the future Apple is still headed (have more than one, non-user serviceable closed system, colours as major releases, leasing, nearly used market, crushed, reclaimed, finally landfill). Once electricity is made as scarce as oil we're in for one express elevator to ... complete dependency. Our grandchildren will see it as totally normal because by then we'll have deeds for air-space above properties and capitalism will literally be selling us air. Infinite growth on a finite planet is not sustainable for the current way of life many of us have the privilege to be living.
Here's the problem. My Acer Predator with an i9 and a 3070 cost me GB£1200, the Framework 16 comparable unit will cost me GB£2300. DOUBLE THE PRICE. I can upgrade RAM and storage on my Acer, screen replacements are easy enough too, almost every part is readily available for my Acer. There is no need for me to spend double and I can always convert my laptop to a desktop by removing the screen assembly.
Your Acer has the benefit of scale of production bringing down the cost, unlike the Framework. Plus while you can upgrade your RAM and storage on your Acer, I bet you can’t upgrade the CPU/GPU.
I mean, an i9 and a 3070 does not even come close to telling the full story about the device. Battery? speakers? screen? keyboard (or even customizability). What about the cooling or the laptop chassis? Would you compare a device with a poopy 67% SRGB 1080p panel to the 100% DCIP3 1600p panel on the framework 16?
I really hope they do a Framework PHONE!! That would be such an amazing thing! No throwing away a $1000 phone, just upgrading its components would save the planet and help in a recession.
I could see this doing well with a certain market. Modularity is cool with us geeks but for those that want a computer to work. Apple has that market under wraps. Good video Luke.
I love everything about Framework hardware. This machine is everything about a laptop I could ever wish for. Windows is the major fault that keeps me from investing in one of these. Maybe I’ll see what Linux distros can offer.
@willm5032 i had the same thing holding me back from using linux, i decided to try dual booting windows and linux and it was so much easier than I thought it'd be! i totally recommend trying it out, it's awesome c:
@@DavidRavenMoon "real" software engineers work on linux and a lot of critical IT infrastructure runs on it. Just because you don't use it, it doesn't mean it's only for email and browsing. Video editing isn't the only thing done on a computer
I would love something like this, but I am a bit petty when it comes to visual design. Their logo's size, placement, and design is pretty ugly and the shape of the laptop is giving me 2015 $299 Windows/Chromebook vibes. I wish they could do something a little more modern looking. It's fine if it has to be thick to accommodate the modular side of things, but it doesn't have to look cheap and outdated. From what I know the build materials are pretty good, so its just the design that makes it look cheap.
Apple has it beat on OS, battery life and display. M2 MacBook Airs are also cheaper at $800 new old stock. Everything that really matters. You lose a ton of performance at the expense of modularity. That story hasn’t changed much.
I love this, but I'm way too cheap. I saw that a new mainboard alone is $900? I literally "upgraded" from a 2012 MacBook Pro to a 15" 2013 Retina last month. I'm not joking. I spent $140. I'll let my employer pay for something more powerful for work. All my personal laptop needs to be able to do is watch UA-cam and edit an occasional photo.
@@w00master Yep. i7 CPU, 16GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD. What more could someone possibly need to browse UA-cam and edit a picture in Gimp once in a while? I dual-boot it with Linux, so I don't care that it's not getting security updates from Apple anymore.
I'm seriously considering this very machine running Linux as my next developer laptop. I figure that I can do pretty much anything that requires Apple's walled-garden on my next iPad. But I'm done paying Apple stupid amounts of money for storage and RAM. Apple are just not providing laptops that are value for money any more.
I had the 13" in my old workplace and loved the DIY unboxing, but it was also the BEST windows machine I've ever had, so comfortable and fast. The only Windows laptop I've ever missed and the only one I'll ever buy in the future!
@@gracelandtoo6240 that was a joke. 2 hours is no where near macbook, but 10 hours is also no where near Macbook's 20 or so hours but is excellent and is considered full day battery. Even my gaming laptop(Legion 5 pro) gets 7-8 hours in light loads which is pretty decent. We need to know how long Framework works on battery.
Framework makes laptops that are made for both Windows and Linux, and they are fully compatible with Linux, so for all Linux users, Framework is one of the Linux hardware manufacturers to go.
@Sofus-fu4ro From the Framework Laptop 16 product page: " We crafted the Framework Laptop 16 chassis from high performance materials like thixomolded magnesium alloy and machined aluminum", so your statement is untrue.
@Sofus-fu4ro So aside from the unwarranted negativity, you also provided zero evidence to support your point. To show an example of what overpriced garbage is, a 16 inch m2 max macbook pro with the minimum configuration of RAM and storage 32/512 will set you back around $3000 Canadian, while a framework 16 with the dedicated GPU and 64GB/1TB will set you back the same amount, and still allow you to upgrade it further, even being able to just add a second storage drive or easily swap the keyboards when they break. Of course, if the keyboard broke on the macbooks (They very much have, especially the butterfly keyboards, such cheap garbage as macbooks always are). Then you are out of luck, so go preach about cheap garbage, 5 years from now I'll still be using my framework 16, and you can go and grovel on about the latest and greatest macbook release 5 years from now. Apple products never last.
its interesting, because I upgrade my surface laptop studio storage, not hard to open, but you have to ruin a plastic strip to reveal the screws, and you can't buy that strip, you have to buy the entire bottom case which is also the battery
Upgradeability is a beautiful thing, and something I really miss from old Macs. But I would miss OSX, that's the biggest no for me. As a second machine? Sure, bring me a Framework. But as a main machine I would pick a MacBook Pro any day.
I have one of these laptops. Watching on it right now. Easily the best thing I've bought in a few years. Such a brilliant computer. I love that other people are covering it outside of repair specialists. Many of the designs are open source btw, not proprietary :)
That kind of reminds me of my first Mac laptop. The PowerBook 1400C. It had swappable floppy, CD, and Zip drive modules. Also a Sonnet G3 upgrade and upgraded video card. Not to mention all of the PC Card accessories: modem; Ethernet adapter; Compact flash card reader etc. I fired it up a few months ago and it still boots up with AC power. I loved my G4 TiBook replacement and all of my MacBook Pros since then, but I sure miss the modularity of that first one. 😢
The component I would like to see for the Framework laptop is an expansion base (something like the old Thinkpad UltraBase) to give you an optical drive, and maybe extra battery capacity. I've thought the way to build it is to have it attach itself to the laptop by slotting into the port bays (you would then have corresponding ports in the FrameBase (just to give it a clever name). DVD/BD laptop drives also get used in various low-profile desktop systems, and server systems, and they are pretty much standardized now (mainly down to the thickness of the drive).
The module is not proprietary! That's the whole point! It's an open standard and anyone can make those adapters....
Luke is so used to living in Apple's world where nearly everything is proprietary that his brain can't computer when things aren't proprietary.
Where are the many third-party manufacturers and the huge selection of modules? An open standard by itself is meaningless. There must be many offers on the market from different manufacturers; then modular laptops will make sense.
Came to the comments immediately to say that, and found you!
@@the_cluster CoolerMaster has a Mainboard case, as for the expansion bay modules, there's a lot of community made ones, not a big repertoire but it is growing, considering Framework is very niche.
Wonder why he hasn't put a correction yet. He's obviously reading comments and replying to them. He really doesn't care if his info is inaccurate?
Luke, you should have mentioned: "The battery is not EVEN glued."
The benefit of the framework is that when you need to upgrade, you can just upgrade the part you need, not replace the whole laptop, as you need to do with other laptops.
This is why I bought one. Nobody is stopping me from repairing my own laptops!
@@cameronbosch1213 Hell yeah! 🤘
@@cameronbosch1213 Hell Yeah !!
Upgrade prices are so high that it is cheaper to buy a new laptop. This concept preys on the naivety of customers and pretends to be eco-friendly.
@@imho4990 Except YOU can upgrade the laptop yourself. You can't on most others.
Its refreshing to see apple centric content creators featuring framework. I'm not surprised though, given the abominations you create with DosDude from time to time haha
We love a good abomination
@@lukemiani Those abominations bring me hope and joy.
@@lukemiani the mac mini of 2tb its awesome
Those modules are not proprietary btw! @@lukemiani
Seriously, his videos with DosDude are the best.
I wish Framework all the luck in the world.
Yes I am buying
We will see the development of these devices. But I think that most of laprop-users are going to use a laptop out of the box and use them for several years. Updates are usually then not required.
@@alexprivates356 That's the thing,there's no need to buy another laptop in 5 years :) Wanna get back on the latest hardware? Go buy a new GPU or CPU or RAM :D
As others have said: please do more research. The CPU mainboard, the gpu, and even the expansion ports are open and published designs other companies can use. Community members are already making their own designs around this. This should have been very obvious at least with the expansion ports all use USB C to connect to the computer.
After years in the Apple eco system, Luke does no longer have any relation to the concept of an open standard. 😅
I think the key phrase is "other companies CAN use". There's no guarantee the design will catch on. In fact, I think it's likely it *won't* catch on. Other companies aren't going to want a modular laptop to succeed. It goes against their business models. And the Framework is a very niche product, so you're not likely to see big manufacturers making components compatible with it.
It's not a bad idea in principle, but will Framework be around a few years from now when you want to upgrade? That's the question I'd be asking. Because while their design might be open, their business model at least partially depends on you buying your parts from them. The whole point of buying a laptop like this is upgradability, so they want to be your upgrade path.
@@BrianHartmanpeople are already designing stuff on their own...
@@BrianHartman might not be other companies, it could be a people starting a new business and building it around this type of opportunity.
@@BrianHartman Laptop manufacturers won't but there's plenty of third-party peripheral manufacturers out there who have no reasons not to produce parts for any kind of laptop if they consider it financially viable.
My 13 inch framework has actually been confused for a mac book when using it at university, that is until they my Linux UI.
tranni
I was actually just thinking about that - how well supported is the hardware under Linux? I could imagine this running Zorin OS 17 - that would be one slick beast.
@@AndersCMadsen they encourage Linux, fully supported
@@mattmarket5642yeah, and make changes to improve the experience on Linux too from community feedback. It's great to see.
Arch and Mint run fine on mine without issue. The M.2 and 32GB of RAM doesn't hurt either.
With CAMM memory module now available for the consumer, I really hope Framework will release the CAMM version of the motherboard.
probably in 2025-26
but it'll be interesting to see if they choose camm2 or lpcamm2
@@itsmilan4069 Probably LPCAMM2 because it has lower power consumption and much smaller form factor.
@@itsmilan4069 Hopefully LPCAMM2
@@sihamhamda47 plus because of that it can have higher clocked lower latency ram modules
and that is how replacable memory should return to macbooks…
Apple would never do this, but at least make the RAM and SSD upgradable. Like it's not even that difficult anymore especially now they've thickened up the machines a bit. My 2012 13" Non-Retina MBP is still my daily driver because of it.
I’d even accept just upgradable storage like retina MacBooks used to have, and like the Mac Pro currently has. We know it’s possible, please just let it happen 😅
@@lukemianibut money!!!!!
@@lukemiani Exactly. SSD’s die horribly due to SWAP and other things pretty quickly. It would just make sense - Although with the new RAM sticks that just came out for laptops Apple really have no excuse especially in pro consumer machines.
lpcamm2 literally make their argument of "soldiered Ram faster" sound stupid now so there's no more excuses for apple
@@itsmilan4069 Intel core ultra 200 explained benefit for memory on package ( closer better efficiency ) where soldering in PCB and sodimm can't do that
Best option we can have will be camm2 which have better tracing for high speed design, d5 8000 achievable atm and it is replaceable
If I had money to spare I'd buy one just to support this consumer friendly theme. Assuming it's reliable hardware.
It is. It never failed on me. Granted, I only have the original 16 inch model, but it's been a champ.
@Sofus-fu4ro I wouldn't buy a MacBook. Not for $1000, not for $2000, not for any price.
@Sofus-fu4roYou get what you pay for.
I love the idea of customizable self built laptops but what you get with Apple silicon is far better and justifies every penny, if you do serious work on it of course. Apple silicon is on another level and having the unified RAM built in is part of its magical performance. But the prices are not user friendly and they can make the storage upgradable. That’s my take on Apple. Unlike jobs, Cook puts share holders before customers. Anyways, I won’t invest a penny in any Windows laptop including this framework. Besides, I don’t like its bulky sharp exterior design and the lack of dark/ black colors.
@fmax6000 It is not worth every penny. It can't run Windows natively and basically had to be COMPLETELY reversed engineered to get Linux even somewhat working, it is WAY too expensive for what you get, and not having removable SSD basically seals me and many business not buying any modern Mac (the latter for IT data retention policies).
Personally, once Steve Jobs died and Scott Forstall was fired, Apple slowly went downhill. Apple Silicon, specifically the M1 Pro & Max, was a bit of an exception, but with the other OEMs responding to Apple Silicon better than Apple innovating it, I can't justify Apple's hardware or software anymore.
@@cameronbosch1213you don't want to pay for 16 neural cores that have zero use cases or even an API?
If anything, the Framework laptop is a way better investment than any other laptop
nope.
It's many good things, but an investment it surely isn't 😅
I'm glad they are getting more exposure. I hope Framework become the Linux of hardware where companies and individuals contribute to the ecosystem so that we can reduce so much e-waste and improve the components.
I kinda feel the 13" model is nicer. The 16" feels lacking in polish..
The 16 is the first generation model,it'll get better. Agree tho
@@willm5032 Yea, I feel it will go through the same stuff (probably more) like the Framework 13 hinges/top cover issues. I had a Framework 13 but due to subpar battery life and firmware updates, I am on a used Thinkpad instead.
@@willm5032yup even the 13 1st gen had issues
I have the 16 inch model, and it's much more polished than the lemons sent to Sean Hollister of The Verge & Just Josh. In fact, if it had more powerful GPU options and a touch screen option, it would be perfect.
The 16" is a more complicated design since they had to engineer a way to upgrade the GPU. Maybe in the future a 15/16" model with just integrated graphics like on the 13 would be warranted, they call call it a 16 "Lite" or "Slim" or something to differentiate it from the model with upgradable graphics.
One more thing. Mainboard is not locked into anything. So if you upgrade mainboard in the laptop you can DIY media center for your TV from the old center with magic of 3D printing.
Framework could even capitalise on the DIY set ups and sell cases for other functions (as not all have 3D print tech)
Framework sells a Cooler Master case for converting a Framework MB into a mini PC.
12:45 they actually charge you $200 for only 8GB of RAM. The laptop already comes with 8GB and in order to go to 16GB one has to pay exorbitant $200 to get there.
Configure it barebones, and buy your own OS, RAM and M.2 (or whatever HDD you choose) in it. I did - way cheaper.
Unlike most vendors, you can actually configure RAM and storage to "None". So you can just buy your own _much_ cheaper.
the thing is, you can actually add that 8gb after purchase, unlike with a macbook.
@@maskedrebel9670except I think needing to add the ram later but not needing it at the beginning of the machines life is a very rare use case. Upgradable ssd is more important imo, but obviously both would be nice.
Except you can at least order the laptop without any ram by selecting "bring your own", and buying ram elsewhere. I don't see why Framework even has RAM and SSD options on their site, no one's going to buy them at that price
I think you can't blame Framework for battery life and speakers since every other Windows PC is similarly limited. And the device is more expensive since they have to get a lot of parts custom made instead of going with common designs the way other laptop manufacturers do. The price difference isn't too outrageous either. If repairable designs become not common then Framework's costs and prices come down as well.
Exactly. And with other brands, if they do what Dell did with their XPS lineup and make it worse, you do have other options, but you do have to go with another brand.
Heck, Framework was the first to have a USB-C PD 3.1 charger. And they just announced a new 120 hz screen, webcam, and Intel Meteor Lake CPU options for the 13 inch model. And of course, if you have the older models, you can use everything except for the motherboard and the RAM (because Meteor Lake requires DDR5).
Framework is also a tiny company so within reason we absolutely should cut them slack in areas where it may be challenging to get components economically, especially anything custom. Like the new high res display having some weird rounded corners (though maybe Framework could offer rounded bezels for those screens since that would be more cost effective than trying to get a custom square screen)
Battery life, fair enough, but I don't get the comment about speakers. Apple's Intel MacBooks had decent speakers too. Doesn't have anything to do with whether a laptop uses x86 or ARM.
@@axi0matic Correct. The 2016 redesign was bad in almost every other way, but it did bring great speakers.
@@axi0matic I think most of it has to do with software tuning though. Theres a reason that apple has an entire audio testing facility for their devices. On the intel macbooks, if you ran bootcamp to use windows, the speakers would sound so much worse on windows, almost as bad as a normal windows laptop.
I don't think this is coincidental, as macOS seems to have many speaker optimizations built into it for their laptops.
While the Framework is often more expensive than the competition at low specs (RAM in particular, storage a little less so), when you increase those it becomes much cheaper. A Framework Laptop 13 (Ryzen) with the maximum specs you can get first-party is within $100 of the highest-end M3 MacBook Air you can get, and will have 8/3 as much RAM and twice the storage. The XPS 13 is cheaper, but still has half the storage; and if you drop the storage on the Framework down to 2TB, it becomes nearly $100 cheaper than the XPS. Matching the max specs of the MacBook as close as possible, it's nearly $550 cheaper.
You can also just buy the components yourself or take the from old computers you have
@@gracelandtoo6240 Yeah, especially useful for SSDs where you can get double the maximum storage as first party. I just wanted a simple comparison.
a framework laptop with a Qualcomm cpu, or upcoming AMD and INTEL arm cpus, that would be nice
All the motherboard modules are swappable. So you don’t need to wait. I’m sure they’ll make a Qualcomm/ARM version eventually.
Yeah, when they jump into the ARM for Windows game, I'll be seriously considering the 13.
if the numbers from Qualcomm are somewhat legit - this will be dope and just a matter of time
They should put 2 cpus in 😈
Yeah. Framework with the Qualcomm chip is going to be bonkers. Being able to switch out the motherboards/CPUs every few years is gonna make everyone else's builds pretty unappealing.
I’m just happy to see Frameputers in more hands
It would be cool if framework made a flat module that covered the entire keyboard and touchpad area so people who want to use an external keyboard can just not buy a keyboard or touchpad and just plonk it on their laptop.
Suggest that on the Framework forums and maybe they (or a third-party) will make one.
That should be easy enough to 3D print yourself.
I hate touchpads and always use a corded mouse, because that's how I've interfaced with PC's for nearly 35 years. If the Framework came with the keyboard where the Touchpad is, or the entire upper deck was a larger keyboard and numpad, with no touchpad, that would suit me just fine.
Loving my Framework 16, had it for 2 months already and it's awesome. And the modules are completely open, no proprietary software or anything. I love using them for things other than the laptop. Oh, I need a C to A adapter? I can borrow that. Oh, need USB C to Displayport or HDMI? I can borrow that too. The fan can get a bit loud, but it's tolerable, especially with headphones. It's crazy to think that the $200 that Apple charges to add 8GB of memory is the same amount I spent on the 64GB I got for my Framework 16. And the $200 to add another 256GB of storage is more than what I spent on the 2TB secondary drive in it.
my next upgrade gonna be a framework laptop so i dont have to buy a new one fully
go ahead, you like to spend 4 times more money for a WAY, WAY worse product? go ahead
@@JohnSmith-pn2vlnot even close to 4x. You also have the added benefit of cheaper upgrades through the years
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl go ahead, you like to see your hardware slowly get more and more incompetent while your frame rates in games suffer and you cant do a single thing about it, go ahead and see how the ram choice you made to save a few extra bucks a year ago is now haunting your performance and you cant upgrade any of the ram modules, go ahead and outlive your macbook to see the day you have to throw it away entirely when it no longer gets updates and the linux support is so shit because of the closedsource nature of macbooks while you scrounge up the last few pennies in your couch cushions to make your latest laptop mortgage payment to apple. go ahead.
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl it's much cheaper if you buy the nvme's and ram from 3rd party, also i want 64GB in my laptop on mac that's costs alot of money
This is so cool Luke, thanks for sharing it in the video. I love Mac and PC so I'm all for it. What a great concept!
Framework are the second people to sell over 100w power bricks for USB C, apple being the first.
I wish more manufacturers did that instead of chunky bricks with a proprietary slot
this laptop will be more competitive in all aspects when Intel and Amd new processors. hope they don't take long to make the new replacement boards.
They have Intel Meteor Lake on the 13 inch model. And all 13 inch models going back to the start can use that new motherboard, webcam, and screen.
I got one of the initial 15" 11th gen intel frameworks. I like and support the idea, but it had too many design issues for me to consider using it as a serious laptop option.
The modules are constantly powered on at all times, even when the laptop is shut down, so they leech power constantly. If I don't unplug the modules, or swap them out with usb-c to c fillers, combinations of a usb-a port, hdmi, and card reader will burn through 20% battery overnight *While powered off*. If I only use my laptop during the weekends when I'm away from my work PC, the thing is constantly dead. There's been some experimental firmware updates users can attempt to flash onto older modules. Though, last I checked a sizable portion of those that tried mention it bricked their module, or had little to no effect.
On that similar note, the rechargeable cmos/bios/whatever they're calling it battery drains rapidly while the machine is powered off. 3-4 days powered off and the laptop wont boot without an AC adapter plugged in, regardless of main battery charge. For instance, if i remove all the modules, power the machine down at 100% and wait a few days, the main battery would be at something like 95-97%, but the machine will not turn on without the AC adapter. Apparently the cmos battery keeps alive some memory timing configurations and other flags that require a first time setup / diagnostic be run, which wont happen without a AC adapter plugged in. The cmos/bios battery only charges while the laptop is plugged in, but only so long as it hasn't drained below a certain threshold. If it is too drained, it wont charge. The only way to resolve this issue is to take the machine apart, remove the cmos battery, wait a few minutes, plug it back in and charge the laptop for 24 hours. Massive PITA.
Basically it's never been a laptop I could trust to just pick up and take with me somewhere without spending several minutes to diagnose and make sure it isn't going to lock up on me, or have no charge. Carrying a dongle has been more convenient than trying to juggle the modules in order to maintain a decent battery life, completely defeating the purpose of the modules to begin with.
I have the 1st gen 13 also, they fixed the problem with the 3-4 day drain issue in future releases. There's hacks out there too if you really really wanted to fix it or pay a repair shop. Yes it's annoying. I have had worse problems with my Dell laptop for work FWIW.
Do more Framework videos Luke!!!
Hey man! I would love to see if any of the Mac creators could turn a framework into a hackintosh! Just a thought!
The price drop is going to be seen when companies start to buy them in bulk and after a few years just upgrade a few modules instead a whole laptop
Having worked at Apple for several years, the rate at which people came in with broken Macbooks only to then have to pay close to retail value to get them "fixed" thoroughly put me off of ever buying one for myself again.
Flat rate depot was pretty cheap.
Thanks for doing this Luke. Purchased one of the first models when they came out and I haven’t looked back
I am torn. I love my macs. But love the idea that frameworks uses on upgradable parts. As costs keep going up knowing I can just upgrade a part in 5 plus years to continue using the device.
this is like fairphone but just laptops
@ok-tr1nw All the schematics of the Fairphone 5 are fully available. They actively support alternative Android versions. I myself installed /e/-OS and they even allow you to relock your bootloader afterwards.
that is correct, this is exactly the same complete failure
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl how's it a failure when so many people are into it? Fairphone may be a niche product, but Framework seems to be super popular already.
@ok-tr1nw Fairphone is very much about longevity and easy diy repairability as well. Maybe not as open as Framework, but they support third party operating systems (Murena). In Germany, there's another similar manufacturer: Shift. They provide schematics and also officially support alternative operating systems. Everything else is very similar to what Fairphone is doing.
@ok-tr1nw i think those two companies are similar in their soul for repairability aspect. both strike to be upgradable and repairable. of course there's more parts for laptops to upgrade than phones i guess. i use iphone and whole apple ecosystem but if fairphone just had ios that apple software i would gladly switch. and on the other hand if apple was more modular and sustainable i would be 10x happy and proud to use their products.
This is almost like a macOS vs Windows discussion, I really love what Framework is doing these machines, in fact they're literally fulfilling what the EU is claiming: "The right ro repair", which means that can be at least many components replaceable in the device DIY. But in the other side, there are many customers which have already involved with the Apple ecosystem and how it works seamlessly in between so there are pros and cons for both sides. I truly believe that is depending on what you do and how are you gonna use your laptop for.
The best investment is a slightly USED laptop that was well spec'd.
It's still future proof for a number of years. Gets updates. Didn't cost its weight in GOLD! And initial depreciation is like a new car.
Same strategy applies to cars. Let the first buyer take the big depreciation hit. They likely have a ton of diposable money. They will get bored. A new model will come out.
Then you get something near mint, lots of life left, for a lot less.
There are plenty of people who replace their iPhones yearly. 😱 It's just bragging rights.
Done't be that person.
I'm not saying buy ancient garbage.
Just be a Smart Consumer. 👍🏼
1. GREAT video Luke! Your best one in a couple of months! 2. I had a Pismo 20 years ago. Back around 1999 to 2000, Apple was huge into upgradability. You could easily switch out the hard drive, ram, CD drive, DVD drive and more! Hell, you could even upgrade from the 400MHZ to the 500MHZ processor because the chip was on a card that snapped in! If you didn't need a DVD or CD drive, you could rock TWO BATTERIES AT THE SAME TIME and thus double your time without a plug. Did I mention it also had an airport card? That Pismo was no joke. It was such a versatile machine, much more so than the Titanium that replaced it. Don't get me wrong I loved the Titanium, but if you were around back then and using laptops, the Pismos and Lombards were jaw dropping. People were stunned by them and how they could do anything. I know these things because I sold them at CompUSA. You should do a video about the Pismo sometime.
I love it! Thanks for sharing this Luke!
Luke, it would be interesting to get your thoughts on popOS on the Framework laptop.
wanted this months ago. This guy knows what to provide.
The performance difference and fan noise are not specific to Framework, but a reality on any similarly specced Windows laptop. Even my i5 based Acer Aspire sounds like a Jet Fighter when booting Windows, but is nearly silent when running Linux.
MXM is still used. The issue is that is rare. Also, a lot of vendors have whitelists, so, for example, a MXM GPU from Dell will not work in a HP motherboard.
I like the idea of modularity for devices, but the downside of that route is being suck in that form factor for all accessories.
Side by side though, the Framework looks very dated compared to laptops by other brands, not just Apple laptops.
This is the best (true successor) laptop since the Pismo...
i love how excited you got for the screwdriver in the box.
Love the idea of an upgradable modular laptop. If only Apple allowed us add more ram or SSD.
I bought my Framework Laptop 13 not long after it was introduced in the 3rd batch. Its been amazing to upgrade the speakers, the CPU/RAM (Intel 11th gen to AMD Ryzen) over the course of ownership. I am excited that they are coming out with a full size SD card reader soon. It was a sad exclusion when I got it and it's so cool I can have the same laptop 3-4 years later and fix the port situation to better suit my needs.
Anyone who knows Framework strategy and design, please help me out. For how longe is a model upgradeable? I mean, will there be a limit in time when new parts are not going to fit into older models? Is the company clear about this or is the promise of upgradeability into the future a vague one? Thanks.
no limit as you can always print an old housing and transfer parts should they ever change sizes
They have been upgradable since intel 11th gen, they've gotten all the way to 13th gen, they have a few ryzen 7000 series and they just announced a Intel Core Ultra mainboard. They offer a small case made by CoolerMaster if you want to repurpose your old mainboard and you can 3D print anything. Also a few upgrades for the other components.
SSD and ram are based on industry standards and are replaceable with off-the-shelf. Framework's main board has been the same through 11, 12, and 13 gen Intel and 7000 series AMD and I don't see any signs of them changing. The modules are just type-c adapters with a certain form-factor. They have had engineering challenges with certain modules fitting, see Ethernet and their videos on the SD modules but they're all still compatible with the initial design. They also have strong incentives not to change the form factor in incompatible ways until it's unavoidable since it would destroy point 1 of their brand identity, upgradability and repairability.
I use the MacBook Pro 14” and I use an external monitor if I really need a larger screen. The purpose of the laptop is to not use desktop stuff and not have the laptop unwieldy.
...looking forward to the 13" Framework laptop.
It’s great for some people, like folks who customize and upgrade their car, but most people just want a car that is elegant, good-performance, and reliable with no need or desire to customize or upgrade it. 99% of the time (when actually using the laptop), the ability to upgrade it is not relevant. So, great for people who love to tinker as much as being productive. Not as desirable (because thicker, heavier, less battery life, need to assemble, etc.) for people who simply want to have the best user experience while playing or getting stuff done on their laptop.
In theory this is what I'm looking for to escape Apple's greed.
this is more expensive than apple/
@@mamam7743 That’s why I said “in theory”. If they can somehow increase the performance and decrease the price I would think of getting one.
I would go for a frameworks. The initial cost is a little higher but if you reuse the connectors, chassis, screen keyboard, and so on, it makes keeping the unit up to date affordable.
They have "factory seconds" if you want cheaper variants.
That's some phenomenal engineering. I'm tempted.
no, thats the dumbest third grade engineering one could possibly do, complete failure and a good lesson why things are how they are because this will fail in a spectacular way
@@JohnSmith-pn2vlI see you on all these comments being so negative. Are you paid by Apple or something?
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl entertain me, how will they fail?
@@XGD5layer the company will probably go bust because its a niche product that normal people will not buy and then they will all go into the bin because you cant buy new parts for it anymore, probably
@@zzz-pe3mp Idk its been pretty long, considering that this is a privatized company with very few investors it seems to have only grown in the past 4 years. I don't see it dying anytime soon
Let's hope there's an ARM option available when Qualcomm starts catching up with Apple Silicon.
Now that CAMM 2 style RAM exist, there is no excuse for Apple to solder memory to the logic board.
there was never reason to make SSD not upgradeable in a first place. Even Mac studio has replaceable SSD but it's all stupidly software locked.
Memory already sits on the Apple Silicon SoCs. It's not soldered to the logic board. Intel announced the same. Unfortunately that's simply cheaper and more power-efficient aka "The future" 😮
I saw that intel essentially copied Apples SOC design. It’s good and bad at the same time in my opinion.
@sio2709 Except CAMM2 makes that not neccesary anymore.
@@cameronbosch1213 CAMM2 still not giving the same performance as Apple SOC
Ive been using mine for about a month. Its amazing! Way better than Ithought it would be. Its very fast and the screen is great. The speakers are really good for a windows laptop. The battery life is ok. I'm hoping they get the snapdragon x elite mainboard and I can just easy upgrade for better battery
Steve Jobs made no secret that he was very much influenced by the automobile industry. The way we 'consume' cars demonstrates the future Apple is still headed (have more than one, non-user serviceable closed system, colours as major releases, leasing, nearly used market, crushed, reclaimed, finally landfill). Once electricity is made as scarce as oil we're in for one express elevator to ... complete dependency. Our grandchildren will see it as totally normal because by then we'll have deeds for air-space above properties and capitalism will literally be selling us air. Infinite growth on a finite planet is not sustainable for the current way of life many of us have the privilege to be living.
Once electricity is as scarce as oil? How is that going to happen?
We're literally in an age where we have to worry about overproduction of electricity lol
First time can see any Framework laptop run Blender. ¿Can Framework 13 run Blender 4.2?
Here's the problem. My Acer Predator with an i9 and a 3070 cost me GB£1200, the Framework 16 comparable unit will cost me GB£2300. DOUBLE THE PRICE. I can upgrade RAM and storage on my Acer, screen replacements are easy enough too, almost every part is readily available for my Acer. There is no need for me to spend double and I can always convert my laptop to a desktop by removing the screen assembly.
Your Acer has the benefit of scale of production bringing down the cost, unlike the Framework.
Plus while you can upgrade your RAM and storage on your Acer, I bet you can’t upgrade the CPU/GPU.
I mean, an i9 and a 3070 does not even come close to telling the full story about the device. Battery? speakers? screen? keyboard (or even customizability). What about the cooling or the laptop chassis? Would you compare a device with a poopy 67% SRGB 1080p panel to the 100% DCIP3 1600p panel on the framework 16?
I have a Macbook for work and a Framework 16 personally. No contest. The Framework wins.
I love my Framework 13 Ryzen laptop. Bought this laptop instead of MacBook.
I really hope they do a Framework PHONE!!
That would be such an amazing thing! No throwing away a $1000 phone, just upgrading its components would save the planet and help in a recession.
$949 for main board, that’s a new capable laptop
It is Ryzon 9 board. I don’t think you understand that.
I could see this doing well with a certain market.
Modularity is cool with us geeks but for those that want a computer to work. Apple has that market under wraps.
Good video Luke.
If Framework ever becomes available here, i'm buying one.
expensive crap.
Same.
Honestly, seems like Apple would WANT to move in this direction for pr and to make more money on "services"
I love everything about Framework hardware. This machine is everything about a laptop I could ever wish for. Windows is the major fault that keeps me from investing in one of these. Maybe I’ll see what Linux distros can offer.
Framework provides Linux setup guides and the very active community is also helping to ensure an excellent Linux user experience. I can confirm 😉
They make framework to work with linux out of the box- Ubuntu I think? I'd be using linux if I didn't need windows based apps for work
Linux is fine if you don’t use “real” software. I need the Adobe apps, Fusion 360, and Logic Pro.
But if you just want email and a web browser, sure.
@willm5032 i had the same thing holding me back from using linux, i decided to try dual booting windows and linux and it was so much easier than I thought it'd be! i totally recommend trying it out, it's awesome c:
@@DavidRavenMoon "real" software engineers work on linux and a lot of critical IT infrastructure runs on it. Just because you don't use it, it doesn't mean it's only for email and browsing. Video editing isn't the only thing done on a computer
Good video Luke, I think I will stick with a Mac Book Pro, why game on a laptop when you have a Mac Pro?
I would love something like this, but I am a bit petty when it comes to visual design. Their logo's size, placement, and design is pretty ugly and the shape of the laptop is giving me 2015 $299 Windows/Chromebook vibes. I wish they could do something a little more modern looking. It's fine if it has to be thick to accommodate the modular side of things, but it doesn't have to look cheap and outdated. From what I know the build materials are pretty good, so its just the design that makes it look cheap.
i will rather have a big chunky ugly laptop that work over a shiny laptop with planned obsolescence or part that can fail easily like macbook lol
Pov: youre more picky than a 80's teenager.
Apple has it beat on OS, battery life and display. M2 MacBook Airs are also cheaper at $800 new old stock. Everything that really matters. You lose a ton of performance at the expense of modularity. That story hasn’t changed much.
Nah, OSX sucks hard.
I love this, but I'm way too cheap. I saw that a new mainboard alone is $900? I literally "upgraded" from a 2012 MacBook Pro to a 15" 2013 Retina last month. I'm not joking. I spent $140. I'll let my employer pay for something more powerful for work. All my personal laptop needs to be able to do is watch UA-cam and edit an occasional photo.
2013?
@@w00master Yep. i7 CPU, 16GB of RAM, and a 512GB SSD. What more could someone possibly need to browse UA-cam and edit a picture in Gimp once in a while? I dual-boot it with Linux, so I don't care that it's not getting security updates from Apple anymore.
@@bradleypariah you’re comparing the price of a 2013 laptop vs a brand new one. That’s my point.
@@w00master Oh, you're trying to make a point. I see. I'm not really interested, but thank you anyway.
in that case original 11th gen mainbords are under 300 soooo
The 13 is the best choice . I don’t think it is expensive laptop at all this thing can last as long as framework in business ..
I'm seriously considering this very machine running Linux as my next developer laptop. I figure that I can do pretty much anything that requires Apple's walled-garden on my next iPad. But I'm done paying Apple stupid amounts of money for storage and RAM. Apple are just not providing laptops that are value for money any more.
I had the 13" in my old workplace and loved the DIY unboxing, but it was also the BEST windows machine I've ever had, so comfortable and fast. The only Windows laptop I've ever missed and the only one I'll ever buy in the future!
I'd rather go with framework. Then I know I actually own the laptop
you like to pay 4 times more for a way, way worse product that wont even last half the time of a macbook?
go ahead, more power to you
@@JohnSmith-pn2vllike seriously, your math is blowing my mind
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl I mean if you are talking about the macbook, then that sounds about right.
I love seeing more people showing off this brand! I so hope they succeed and make a huge impact for the better in the world!
"The battery life is no where near Macbook" thanks for being so specific. This is exactly the number I expected.
yeah bc it's still just x86, they'll offer ARM soon enough, then we can compare
@@gracelandtoo6240 that was a joke. 2 hours is no where near macbook, but 10 hours is also no where near Macbook's 20 or so hours but is excellent and is considered full day battery.
Even my gaming laptop(Legion 5 pro) gets 7-8 hours in light loads which is pretty decent. We need to know how long Framework works on battery.
Framework makes laptops that are made for both Windows and Linux, and they are fully compatible with Linux, so for all Linux users, Framework is one of the Linux hardware manufacturers to go.
Un-Apple packaging is almost all recycleable/compostable. Apple could never
All Apple packaging has been recyclable and made from recyclable materials for a few years now.
Apple is all paper and cardboard it looks like so idk what this menas
@Sofus-fu4ro From the Framework Laptop 16 product page: " We crafted the Framework Laptop 16 chassis from high performance materials like thixomolded magnesium alloy and machined aluminum", so your statement is untrue.
Those little boxes are a lot of disposable garbage. I hate unboxing and find little boxes to unbox.
@Sofus-fu4ro So aside from the unwarranted negativity, you also provided zero evidence to support your point. To show an example of what overpriced garbage is, a 16 inch m2 max macbook pro with the minimum configuration of RAM and storage 32/512 will set you back around $3000 Canadian, while a framework 16 with the dedicated GPU and 64GB/1TB will set you back the same amount, and still allow you to upgrade it further, even being able to just add a second storage drive or easily swap the keyboards when they break.
Of course, if the keyboard broke on the macbooks (They very much have, especially the butterfly keyboards, such cheap garbage as macbooks always are). Then you are out of luck, so go preach about cheap garbage, 5 years from now I'll still be using my framework 16, and you can go and grovel on about the latest and greatest macbook release 5 years from now. Apple products never last.
Anti-MacBook
>Windows
>More expensive
>Jet Engine
>Just a few hours battery
>You have to assemble yourself instead of someone in china
No Thanks 😅
Hope framework puts out a x elite board
its interesting, because I upgrade my surface laptop studio storage, not hard to open, but you have to ruin a plastic strip to reveal the screws, and you can't buy that strip, you have to buy the entire bottom case which is also the battery
You call things ‘proprietary’ that aren’t. This makes many of your assertions about the laptop rather disingenuous.
This numbering of the insides melted smth in my old hardened soul.
Upgradeability is a beautiful thing, and something I really miss from old Macs. But I would miss OSX, that's the biggest no for me. As a second machine? Sure, bring me a Framework. But as a main machine I would pick a MacBook Pro any day.
I hate modern macOS, so Framework is a no brainer. And no, I don't use Windows 11 either.
Use Linux.
@@aluisiofsjr I do.
I have one of these laptops. Watching on it right now.
Easily the best thing I've bought in a few years. Such a brilliant computer.
I love that other people are covering it outside of repair specialists.
Many of the designs are open source btw, not proprietary :)
Framework wipes the floor with Apple closed adaptability.
Best mention the os it’s running on in the beginning because of knowing which software to use
Linus Sabastian APPROVED!
where is the link to buy one?
the framework laptop will last much longer than the macbook pro just due to upgradeablilty
no, not even half the life of a macbook, why are ppl so dumb to not understand this is beyond me.
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl you can't upgrade the macbook and after so many years it becomes unsupported outside of using open core on intel macs
Luke, I watched few reviews of this laptop but with yours ... you made me wanted to try buying it.
first here lol
I can indeed confirm.
Camm is replacing memory on both dimm and vram. I'm just hoping razer using this to follow up on the area 51 upgradable promise.
Some serious R&D from the Framework Team.. hats off!
nice video =) but the fan-noise (11:02) is wild on win-laptops unfortunately (with very few and expensive exceptions)
That kind of reminds me of my first Mac laptop. The PowerBook 1400C. It had swappable floppy, CD, and Zip drive modules. Also a Sonnet G3 upgrade and upgraded video card. Not to mention all of the PC Card accessories: modem; Ethernet adapter; Compact flash card reader etc. I fired it up a few months ago and it still boots up with AC power. I loved my G4 TiBook replacement and all of my MacBook Pros since then, but I sure miss the modularity of that first one. 😢
The component I would like to see for the Framework laptop is an expansion base (something like the old Thinkpad UltraBase) to give you an optical drive, and maybe extra battery capacity. I've thought the way to build it is to have it attach itself to the laptop by slotting into the port bays (you would then have corresponding ports in the FrameBase (just to give it a clever name). DVD/BD laptop drives also get used in various low-profile desktop systems, and server systems, and they are pretty much standardized now (mainly down to the thickness of the drive).
More videos on these please
Loved it ! Thank you master Luke. Nicolas (you have a friend in Bordeaux, France, now :) )