I studied theology in the Gregorian in Rome for three years, but this is a much better explanation than we received there. We could save our dioceses a fortune by just clicking on UA-cam to watch this dude instead of sending seminarians to Rome! 😀
The only problem is that the New Testament explicitly states that the son both “left” heaven and “returned”, that the father is greater than the son, and that the son became a “curse” for us. The reason 99% of Christians understand it this way is because this is what the Bible clearly teaches. It takes mental gymnastics to interpret these things any other way which is why it took the church over 300 years to do so.
@@sheldonspider86Gal 3:13 is just a way of saying that he redeemed us from the curse meant for us; He bore it all. His visceral physical punishment seems to be a curse. It’s similar way of looking at God’s wrath. It’s not an emotion that He fluctuates in and out of. Wrath is what it feels like to us when we get what we ought- or at times when it’s just a cross to bear like cancer- an opportunity to offer it to the Lord.
@@sheldonspider86actually the majority of Christians did not believe in PSA now or through church history. I’m a Protestant but do not agree with the Calvin’s explanation of the cross for its not Biblical or Historical.
Joe, thank you so much for this. I grew up with Penal Substitutionary Atonement and it always struck me as false at worst, and missing something crucial at best. Over the past few years God has been calling out to me more and more insistently, but the harder I pursued Christ, the harder I was disappointed. And yet he still kept calling me. I feel like you've taken earplugs out of my ears so i can hear his voice clearly for the first time. I really feel like I've heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the very first time in my entire life. And the truth has set me free. I don't know if you'll ever read this, but thank you so much Joe, and God bless you. I wish there was a better way for me to express my gratitude, but I praise and thank God for you and your ministry.
From someone who converted from this branch of Christianity after suffering some severe spiritual trauma due to following to the logical conclusions, THANK YOU.. andddd please cover this like ten more times so I can get it through my thick skull
Brother, this video changed everything for me. I was born and raised catholic, I left the church for ten years, I've been a protestant for almost two years and came back into the Church year ago. I now realize I how deceived I was with these lies, these false doctrines. You've opened my eyes to the love our Lord has for us, and for me specifically. I've been struggling to see that, to understand and receive it. Thanks to you, one layer of lies has been taken away and now my vision is much clearer. God bless you abundantly, your family and ministry also!
Welcome home! It makes me weep and rage that Holy Mother the Church decided in the foolishness of her mortal leaders to move into Vatican II instead of simply bulwarking good catechism into excellent catechism as we see here from Joe. God love you, and God love Joe.
Wow wow wow! Ty for this video. I grew up in the Christian Reformed Church so I recognize some of what you said. Calvinist theology yes. I was welcomed into the Catholic Church in 1987. So what's wrong is corrected and I gain so much more. When people are looking into joining the Catholic Church they can't look at everything that's going on. If we look at people we will always be disappointed. Look at Jesus and His Church. It is so pure and rich and no limit to God's grace.
Hey Joe! I have a Purgatory question cued up for next time you are on Catholic Answers live. 😂 Your books The Early Church was the Catholic Church, and Pope Peter have been a huge help in my discussions with my Protestant friends and family! Appreciate you brother!
Hey joe, I’m a recent convert from Macarthur/Calvin Christianity to RCC..this was really helpful.. do you have any recommendations/readings/spiritual practices to help take this truer understanding from head to heart for someone who was essentially raised under penal substitutionary atonement ideology for years?
Thank you for the Balm of Gilead. I'm so glad to be a Catholic, more than ever. As a protestant I dragged the penal substitutionary theory into my Catholic life. I knew no better. That damnable theory taunted me for decades. I was a very glum believer very often, sad to say. Last year I listened to the Eastern Orthodox view of the Sacrifice on the Cross, and looked into becoming a Byzantine Catholic. Further study changed my mind, so more sad confusion. You have done an enormous service to those of us weighed down by this major protestant error. Thank you. Christianity is now Good News.
This has been a delight to listen to and has really helped me to understand Jesus sacrifice much better. I've always struggled with the idea of Penal Substitutionary Atonement, and for many of the reasons you listed. My journey from Protestantism and toward the Catholic church continues.
There are no superlatives too over the top to describe this episode. It’s absolutely 100% fire and truth start to finish. Joe is without doubt the best apologist out there. There is NO other podcast or channel where I consistently rewatch and relisten to the episodes sometimes 3-4+ times, and I’m not even the only one who says that. It’s just a pleasure to hear error so elegantly unraveled and orthodoxy so beautifully built back up.
Thank you so much for this! I am a recent convert to Catholicism, and this has been a subject I have been trying to understand more firmly. I tried reading books on the subject, but couldn’t find anything helpful. I’ve done some of my own writing on the subject because I couldn’t find the material anywhere. This is clear and concise, and you should make it a book! Most Protestants have no clue what the Catholic view on this is, and there is a need for people like you to proclaim the Catholic view in a clear way.
I am current reading a book, recommended by Dr. Scott Hahn titled “What is Redemption? How Christ’s Suffering Saves Us by Philippe De La Trinite.” So far, I am loving this book and it goes along with what you are talking about.
I love the Orthodox understanding of Jesus's birth, life and death as the beginning of the new creation, Thy Kingdom come. Taking on human flesh He restores the creation lost in Adam. I've always had a problem with God NEEDING the crucifixion to forgive us. Thanks so much!
This video... I'm just sitting here soaking it in. I have grown up with the penal substitution model and I have tried to disregard the obvious holes. After watching this video I realize how distant I've felt from the father because of His wrath on his beloved son therefore he must feel angry with me too. I didn't realize how ingrained this was in my spiritual life. I will be watching this again. Thank you, Joe! God is using you In a mighty way! You're a mainstay in my conversion to Catholicism.
This was great, Joe! As a Catholic you "know" all of this, through liturgy, sacraments, reading, but I find understand the way the old testament - especially when you explained the blood thrown on the people by Moses - fascinating! Thanks and keep up the great work! I'll probably listen to this one a few times. 👍
This is such a fantastic explanation. I had listened to protestant preachers explain penal substitution and something always seemed off. Thank you for this BEAUTIFUL explanation and lesson. This makes me feel proud to be Catholic.
THANK YOU for spending time explaining the CATHOLIC theology of the atonement. Too often all we hear from apologists is that we don't believe in the PENAL part, but we don't get a good explanation of what we DO affirm. You should take a look at the Penal Substitutionary Atonement portion of American Gospel 2. A future reaction or response video of that would be amazing!
Love the work you’re doing here. Showing from the scriptures why Catholic views are right rather than just appealing to authority (Aquinas said…). Well done!
Coming from a calvinist background converting to Catholicism the distorted view of God they taught me caused me a lot of issues with scrupulosity because of their idea of a vengeful God
@1:24:08 Something I noticed with Protestant theology, especially the evangelicals, is that there is no emphasis on suffering or taking on your cross. It's all about 'feeling good'.
This is a great unpacking of .why the cross. and all it reveals and means. Thank you Joe. I want to be able to go back through what you have talked about and distill it down to something I can speak about confidently.
Joe, this is one of your best videos ever. It’s so perfectly encapsulates not only the issues I intuitively feel whenever someone begins talking with penal substitutionary atonement language, but also why those truly damage our understanding of Christ’s life and His sacrifice on the cross. Thank you for putting it in such a concise, easily digestible sense.
Quickly becoming one of my most listened to shows. Thank you so much for going deep into the "mechanism" of the Cross and salvation. Also at the risk of being uncharitable, John MacArthur seems like a deeply angry guy, which may explain his theology.
Yes, at around 38 - 39 , that is Piper speaking, I used to listen to him frequently - I have been a Calvinist for a few years, and was becoming more and more joyless ... since looking into Catholicism my joy and faith is growing and I feel a burden lifting. This was another weight removed: what an incredible articulation and rebuttal of PSA, and so much more ... very profound ... thank you so much Joe for your clear mind and your wonderful ministry !
My new favorite channel! 👏🏻 great job! As an aside, homilies are in the mass and connect the readings with the gospel. Protestants have sermons; lessons on whatever they want to talk about.
This is my favorite (so far) of your podcasts. I knew penal substitution was wrong, but I could not figure out the right explanation. Thanks for exploring and sharing these Catholic truths.
As a convert to catholicism from the other guys. After 33 years i think for the 1st time i heard the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the crucifixion and what it means to me. Thank you Joe for you teaching the truth of the word. I begin to wonder if i was saved at all apart from the catholic church. I want to say that i was a happy protestant and i am a miserable catholic.. you mean i actually have to carry a cross and not just rely on Jesus only. Truth hurts sometimes. Bring it brother.
It’s striking to see medieval affective piety alive and well in Sproul and MacArthur’s sermons. American "reformed" Protestants are trying to stir up the same emotions in the listener, with their words alone, that a twelfth-century devotional book or a Spanish penitential procession would have. Very good presentation.
For me the real and needful part of the video starts at 43:21 . . Even after this point, a lot of time is wasted on attacking the wrath of God idea embedded on the penal substitution model, but it’s undeniable that truly some remarkable things have been unpacked in the second part of the video. Thank you Mr. Joe!
Praise God. Eye opener from God to me. I feel he did spoke to me through this video. Indeed he did. May God use you more and more for his kingdom. God bless ❤
Really enjoyed this episode Joe!! I’ve been seeing a lot of Calvinist/Reformed things lately so would you consider doing an episode on refuting the Calvinist view of free will?
Had a protestant tell me a few weeks ago, *"Peter didn't know the meaning of the cross."* A shocking statement. He was having a hard time reconciling 1 Pet 3: 21 with his baptismal theology.
Typical, sola scriptura gets thrown away when it doesnt fit their theology, i am shocked, it makes sense why james and hebrews were almost thrown out of the bible by luther, litterraly contradicts sola fide
RC Sproul goes through some serious mental gymnastics. It’s fascinating when Protestant apologists are walking a very tight rope their voice changes. It’s that “please believe me, edge of tears, I’m grasping at straws” voice. It’s usually followed by hyperventilation and ended with some 2 or 3 word phrase to punctuate what is essentially babble. He may as well have said the color of yellow is square.
I knew these things in my heart and soul, but I would never have been able to put it into words like this. Please talk about this more on your channel. Your explanation and description are perfect, but in my deepest intellectual understanding, I am still lacking in the profound theological expression of this concept or, better stated, the mystery. Thank you so very much for this discussion.
Beautiful! Thanks for taking the time here, Joe! Given this excellent and unhurried unpacking, how can we fail to fall in love with our Lord all over again? So it is that His sacrifice out of divine love is this beginning and end of history and shows us the path to Heaven. Amen.
I remember many years ago hearing how the "Father toke out his wrath on Jesus" and felt so repugnant at that idea. Thanks for this great explanation of our beautiful Catholic view of Jesus sin offering on the cross. Thank you.
I have been watching several of your shows and I am enjoying them! Do you have a Patreon or locals? You should get one if not. I suggest locals people will support you. Also do you do interviews?
At 14:33 This is where Protestants get the Bible wrong, not only at this specific part but all throughout the Bible. The verse isn't meant to be taken literal. God never forsakes Jesus, and Jesus isn't asking, why? "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" is the first line in Psalm 22. The first line in the Psalm is the title, just like the first line in the Our Father is "Our Father". And the first line in the Hail Mary is "Hail Mary". What Jesus is doing is part of his Hebrew culture, it's a part of his upbringing. Jesus is reciting Psalm 22. Unfortunately, Protestants take everything in the Bible literally and are completely ignorant of the culture and context. *History and context. In the most general sense, Psalm 22 is about a person who is crying out to God to save him from the taunts and torments of his enemies, and (in the last ten verses) thanking God for rescuing him.*
“Unfortunately, Protestants take everything in the Bible literally.” That’s simply untrue. Take communion or the Eucharist for example. Protestants generally believe that it is symbolic, whereas Catholics believe that it is literally the body and blood of Christ. 🤔
“Unfortunately, Protestants take everything in the Bible literally.” That’s simply untrue. Take communion or the Eucharist for example. Protestants generally believe that it is symbolic, whereas Catholics believe that it is literally the body and blood of Christ. 🤔
@@sayhello5377 do you think that literally eating the flesh and blood of Christ will give you life, eternal life and that He will abide in you? If so, an unbeliever could attend mass weekly, eat the body of Christ and be saved. Without any faith whatsoever!
John McArthur is consistently spewing errors. he's one of the worst Biblical scholars i've ever encountered, apart from one of the most anti-Catholic. so glad for your rebuttals and explanations to counter his erroneous teachings. (and good to see the increase in text size!)
That is the point of the video; to attack via Mcarthur et al. Mcarthur takes it upon himself to destroy catholicism with no quarter given. Joe is fighting back and tars all prots with calvinism.
Thanks so much, Joe! This is such a solid summary. This needs to be on your short list of podcats to bookify. I would give this to beloved Calvinist friends.
Dr. Scott Hahn does a wonderful job explaining the connection between the Last Supper and the Crucifixion in his video "The Fourth Cup": ua-cam.com/video/v1yAvrVoYzo/v-deo.html And the late Father Richard John Neuhaus' ruminations on the Crucifixion in his excellent book "Death on a Friday Afternoon" are esse Tualatin reading. I highly recommend both.
Thanks for making this video, this has shown me a lot that I've never heard before. Can you please recommend any other resources that go into depth on this topic? Thanks
This is absolutely brilliant work! Well done. A number of years ago I was trying to refute an author who was sympathetic to Christus Victor who was trying to blame PSA on St. Anselm and Aquinas. This presentation would have come in really handy. What would you say, however, to Reformed who bring up proof texts like Gal 3:13 (cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree) and Isaiah 53:5 (he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities)?
Joe, you did a great job organizing this material. McArthur and Sproul's theories on penal substitution are wrong in so may ways. The more they try to explain, the worse it gets. Their stories just don't sound plausible - maybe something a Jr. HS kid would come up with if he didn't pay attention in class or read the material. I certainly can't imagine someone with Philosophy or Psychology classes believing this view.
As a Texas Tech Red Raider, you almost converted me on the spot with the Mahomes reference 😂 I’ve been a Chiefs fan because of him ever since y’all drafted him. I like the episode, I’ve been a Christus Victor guy myself for a few years after rejecting PSA as logically incoherent and morally offensive.
Also, I would point out that the idea of what makes the sacrifice necessary is underdeveloped in this video. You touched on it, but did not fully flesh it out. He redeems humanity by taking on and perfecting human nature. The cross plays a role in this perfection as it shows extreme obedience, but it’s primarily the vehicle for shedding his blood, which gets applied to us through the Eucharist. We who eat the sacrifice are then both joined to the cross and then ontologically transformed into what we consumed (you are what you eat) by transmutation, as St Justin Martyr puts it. Anyway, excellent episode. It makes me feel much better to know that I am not the only one who picked up on the inadequacy and lunacy of PSA.
I wonder what Christian tradition you are a Part of that you reject Penal Substitutionary Atonement without being Catholic. Are you Orthodox? I am confused. I always thought that PSA and Protestantism go hand in hand
Dear@@awuriefnejqwjmnwn4960, naw, Protestants are all over the place! They have no one, single cogent theology! The only unifying factor in their beliefs is that the Catholic Church is Wrong.
This is probably the best explanation and refutation of penal substitution that I've heard. However, I would be interested in hearing how you understand the typology between the Abraham and Isaac story and the crucifixion because there does seem to be a clear link. Also, how to properly understand the "wrath" of God. Is it simply the Father's discipline of His children or something more?
Thanks, Joe; I really enjoyed listening to this teaching. Could you go into more detail about how Jesus, as the Lamb of God, takes away the sin of the world? I think St Peter describes it as bearing our sins in his own body on the tree (1 Peter 2:24) - this is something that seems difficult to understand. How can sins be taken away or borne?
0:00: 💭 Exploring the significance of the Crucifixion in Christianity and its relevance to believers. 6:59: ⚡ The theological implications of Jesus being considered the worst sinner in history and cursed by God. 14:14: 💫 Eternal trinitarian relationship maintained through Incarnation with exception of Crucifixion moment. 21:29: 💬 Inadequacy of transferring punishment to innocent person in the context of justice and theology. 29:25: ⚖️ Explaining how Christ's sacrifice pays for sins and the concept of eternal damnation. 35:58: 💡 Problem with Christ's priesthood being destroyed in Penal Substitution theory. 42:52: 💫 The significance of the Crucifixion in Christianity is misrepresented as portraying Jesus as guilty of all sins, which contradicts his sinless nature. 50:01: ⚖️ Christ's passion provides superabundant atonement for all sins, rejecting limited atonement views. 56:52: ⚖️ God's declaration of righteousness in the 16th century Reformation theology explained through imputation and transformation. 1:03:35: 💡 The significance of Old Testament sacrifices and the concept of overpayment in relation to forgiveness. 1:10:20: 🤯 The concept of 'sin' in Hebrew has a dual meaning, referring to both sin and sin offering, shedding light on the interpretation of Christ becoming sin. 1:16:40: ⚖️ The New Testament emphasizes love and obedience over Divine violence in the crucifixion narrative. 1:23:15: 💫 The significance of suffering in Catholic and Orthodox theology, offering it up for others' benefit. Recap by Tammy AI
I studied theology in the Gregorian in Rome for three years, but this is a much better explanation than we received there. We could save our dioceses a fortune by just clicking on UA-cam to watch this dude instead of sending seminarians to Rome! 😀
Good one! 😂
Finally, the most decisive and concise rebuttal of the Penal Substitution Theory I’ve seen. Joe is my most favoritest Catholic Apologist.
The only problem is that the New Testament explicitly states that the son both “left” heaven and “returned”, that the father is greater than the son, and that the son became a “curse” for us. The reason 99% of Christians understand it this way is because this is what the Bible clearly teaches. It takes mental gymnastics to interpret these things any other way which is why it took the church over 300 years to do so.
@@sheldonspider86Gal 3:13 is just a way of saying that he redeemed us from the curse meant for us; He bore it all. His visceral physical punishment seems to be a curse. It’s similar way of looking at God’s wrath. It’s not an emotion that He fluctuates in and out of. Wrath is what it feels like to us when we get what we ought- or at times when it’s just a cross to bear like cancer- an opportunity to offer it to the Lord.
@@sheldonspider86only Protestants believe penal substitution. So if they ALL subscribe to it, that is only about 25% of Christians
@@sheldonspider86actually the majority of Christians did not believe in PSA now or through church history. I’m a Protestant but do not agree with the Calvin’s explanation of the cross for its not Biblical or Historical.
One should be suspicious of any man standing at a podium on a stage and calling it "church".
Joe, thank you so much for this. I grew up with Penal Substitutionary Atonement and it always struck me as false at worst, and missing something crucial at best. Over the past few years God has been calling out to me more and more insistently, but the harder I pursued Christ, the harder I was disappointed. And yet he still kept calling me. I feel like you've taken earplugs out of my ears so i can hear his voice clearly for the first time. I really feel like I've heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the very first time in my entire life. And the truth has set me free. I don't know if you'll ever read this, but thank you so much Joe, and God bless you. I wish there was a better way for me to express my gratitude, but I praise and thank God for you and your ministry.
From someone who converted from this branch of Christianity after suffering some severe spiritual trauma due to following to the logical conclusions, THANK YOU.. andddd please cover this like ten more times so I can get it through my thick skull
Brother, this video changed everything for me. I was born and raised catholic, I left the church for ten years, I've been a protestant for almost two years and came back into the Church year ago. I now realize I how deceived I was with these lies, these false doctrines. You've opened my eyes to the love our Lord has for us, and for me specifically. I've been struggling to see that, to understand and receive it. Thanks to you, one layer of lies has been taken away and now my vision is much clearer. God bless you abundantly, your family and ministry also!
Dear Fellow Pilgrim, welcome back!! God truly IS good!
Welcome home! It makes me weep and rage that Holy Mother the Church decided in the foolishness of her mortal leaders to move into Vatican II instead of simply bulwarking good catechism into excellent catechism as we see here from Joe. God love you, and God love Joe.
X
Welcome home!
Wow wow wow! Ty for this video. I grew up in the Christian Reformed Church so I recognize some of what you said. Calvinist theology yes.
I was welcomed into the Catholic Church in 1987. So what's wrong is corrected and I gain so much more. When people are looking into joining the Catholic Church they can't look at everything that's going on. If we look at people we will always be disappointed. Look at Jesus and His Church. It is so pure and rich and no limit to God's grace.
Well said
I refer to the clip (around 24:00) as R.C. Sproul, but I meant John Piper. Mea culpa!
Hey Joe! I have a Purgatory question cued up for next time you are on Catholic Answers live. 😂 Your books The Early Church was the Catholic Church, and Pope Peter have been a huge help in my discussions with my Protestant friends and family! Appreciate you brother!
Hey joe, I’m a recent convert from Macarthur/Calvin Christianity to RCC..this was really helpful.. do you have any recommendations/readings/spiritual practices to help take this truer understanding from head to heart for someone who was essentially raised under penal substitutionary atonement ideology for years?
Mea maxima culpa 😆
@@jambangoni
Recc for you:
"What is Redemption? How Christ's Suffering Saves Us by Philippe de La Trinite"
I know Protestants of the Baptist persuasion who look at Jesus’ atoning sacrifice as the scapegoat practice and not the pascal lamb.
I found you through your interview with Pints with Aquinas.
Criminally underrated Channel. Glad I found it.
Thank you for the Balm of Gilead. I'm so glad to be a Catholic, more than ever. As a protestant I dragged the penal substitutionary theory into my Catholic life. I knew no better. That damnable theory taunted me for decades. I was a very glum believer very often, sad to say. Last year I listened to the Eastern Orthodox view of the Sacrifice on the Cross, and looked into becoming a Byzantine Catholic. Further study changed my mind, so more sad confusion.
You have done an enormous service to those of us weighed down by this major protestant error. Thank you. Christianity is now Good News.
May I ask why you didn't become Byzantine catholic
This has been a delight to listen to and has really helped me to understand Jesus sacrifice much better. I've always struggled with the idea of Penal Substitutionary Atonement, and for many of the reasons you listed. My journey from Protestantism and toward the Catholic church continues.
I joined officially a few weeks ago. Not far into it yet obviously but has been a blessing
Dear@@jambangoni, welcome home to the Church!! I converted 51 years ago, and I am still learning new wonders and blessings!
There are no superlatives too over the top to describe this episode. It’s absolutely 100% fire and truth start to finish. Joe is without doubt the best apologist out there. There is NO other podcast or channel where I consistently rewatch and relisten to the episodes sometimes 3-4+ times, and I’m not even the only one who says that. It’s just a pleasure to hear error so elegantly unraveled and orthodoxy so beautifully built back up.
Thank you so much for this! I am a recent convert to Catholicism, and this has been a subject I have been trying to understand more firmly. I tried reading books on the subject, but couldn’t find anything helpful. I’ve done some of my own writing on the subject because I couldn’t find the material anywhere. This is clear and concise, and you should make it a book! Most Protestants have no clue what the Catholic view on this is, and there is a need for people like you to proclaim the Catholic view in a clear way.
I totally agree that it should be converted into a book !!!!
Thanks again Joe for your always clear and concise teachings and for doing the hard work for us!! ❤ Best podcast ever!!
I am current reading a book, recommended by Dr. Scott Hahn titled “What is Redemption? How Christ’s Suffering Saves Us by Philippe De La Trinite.” So far, I am loving this book and it goes along with what you are talking about.
I love the Orthodox understanding of Jesus's birth, life and death as the beginning of the new creation, Thy Kingdom come. Taking on human flesh He restores the creation lost in Adam. I've always had a problem with God NEEDING the crucifixion to forgive us. Thanks so much!
Do you mean orthodox In the sense of sane doctrine or the orthodox church? For I learn this doctrine in the catholic church.
@@joselongo1601The Eastern Orthodox believe the same things they just call it and phrase it differently.
This applies to 99.99% of stuff
@@crusaderACR pero ozoz2931 pareció decir lo contrario.
This video... I'm just sitting here soaking it in. I have grown up with the penal substitution model and I have tried to disregard the obvious holes. After watching this video I realize how distant I've felt from the father because of His wrath on his beloved son therefore he must feel angry with me too. I didn't realize how ingrained this was in my spiritual life. I will be watching this again. Thank you, Joe! God is using you In a mighty way! You're a mainstay in my conversion to Catholicism.
As a protestant converting to Catholicism, thank you for this.
You've been catholic, you just didn't know it yet(-;
You are a consummate teacher: thorough, clear, and concise. Wow! I’m hooked.
This was great, Joe! As a Catholic you "know" all of this, through liturgy, sacraments, reading, but I find understand the way the old testament - especially when you explained the blood thrown on the people by Moses - fascinating! Thanks and keep up the great work! I'll probably listen to this one a few times. 👍
Agreeing. I put this video in my "watch later" list.
This is such a fantastic explanation. I had listened to protestant preachers explain penal substitution and something always seemed off. Thank you for this BEAUTIFUL explanation and lesson. This makes me feel proud to be Catholic.
THANK YOU for spending time explaining the CATHOLIC theology of the atonement. Too often all we hear from apologists is that we don't believe in the PENAL part, but we don't get a good explanation of what we DO affirm.
You should take a look at the Penal Substitutionary Atonement portion of American Gospel 2. A future reaction or response video of that would be amazing!
Would love to see your response to this fascinating interpretation of our Lord's relationship with his mother: ua-cam.com/video/SXm7GHbRwzA/v-deo.html
Shameless Potpourri is my new favourite!!!! Keep em coming.
Love the work you’re doing here. Showing from the scriptures why Catholic views are right rather than just appealing to authority (Aquinas said…). Well done!
I love the way you present your material...so easy to understand and follow. Thank you!!
Coming from a calvinist background converting to Catholicism the distorted view of God they taught me caused me a lot of issues with scrupulosity because of their idea of a vengeful God
I wish I could thumb this up infinitely many times. Such an excellent episode. Thank you Joe.
@1:24:08 Something I noticed with Protestant theology, especially the evangelicals, is that there is no emphasis on suffering or taking on your cross. It's all about 'feeling good'.
Thank you so much for such an in-depth look into the cross and salvation through Christ.
This was a great explanation. I’ve pondered this without understanding for a long time.
This is a great unpacking of .why the cross. and all it reveals and means. Thank you Joe. I want to be able to go back through what you have talked about and distill it down to something I can speak about confidently.
Joe, this is one of your best videos ever. It’s so perfectly encapsulates not only the issues I intuitively feel whenever someone begins talking with penal substitutionary atonement language, but also why those truly damage our understanding of Christ’s life and His sacrifice on the cross. Thank you for putting it in such a concise, easily digestible sense.
Excellent episode! Thank you Joel!
Quickly becoming one of my most listened to shows. Thank you so much for going deep into the "mechanism" of the Cross and salvation. Also at the risk of being uncharitable, John MacArthur seems like a deeply angry guy, which may explain his theology.
Yes, at around 38 - 39 , that is Piper speaking, I used to listen to him frequently - I have been a Calvinist for a few years, and was becoming more and more joyless ... since looking into Catholicism my joy and faith is growing and I feel a burden lifting. This was another weight removed: what an incredible articulation and rebuttal of PSA, and so much more ... very profound ... thank you so much Joe for your clear mind and your wonderful ministry !
My new favorite channel! 👏🏻 great job!
As an aside, homilies are in the mass and connect the readings with the gospel. Protestants have sermons; lessons on whatever they want to talk about.
Ridiculous .The homilies at the Catholic Church are monotone , stupidity by pathetic “preachers “ that sound like it was written by a ten year old .
So excited to dive into this one. Penal substitutionary atonement is something I have been wanting to dive into for a few weeks now. Thanks Joe!
Thank, Joe! Excellent. Saved it to watch it again
This is my favorite (so far) of your podcasts. I knew penal substitution was wrong, but I could not figure out the right explanation. Thanks for exploring and sharing these Catholic truths.
As a convert to catholicism from the other guys. After 33 years i think for the 1st time i heard the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the crucifixion and what it means to me. Thank you Joe for you teaching the truth of the word. I begin to wonder if i was saved at all apart from the catholic church. I want to say that i was a happy protestant and i am a miserable catholic.. you mean i actually have to carry a cross and not just rely on Jesus only. Truth hurts sometimes. Bring it brother.
So happy you've got a podcast now Joe. Really enjoying the content.
It’s striking to see medieval affective piety alive and well in Sproul and MacArthur’s sermons. American "reformed" Protestants are trying to stir up the same emotions in the listener, with their words alone, that a twelfth-century devotional book or a Spanish penitential procession would have. Very good presentation.
Thank you. I pray more will listen 🙏🏽✝️🙏🏽
For me the real and needful part of the video starts at 43:21 . . Even after this point, a lot of time is wasted on attacking the wrath of God idea embedded on the penal substitution model, but it’s undeniable that truly some remarkable things have been unpacked in the second part of the video. Thank you Mr. Joe!
Praise God. Eye opener from God to me. I feel he did spoke to me through this video. Indeed he did. May God use you more and more for his kingdom. God bless ❤
Really enjoyed this episode Joe!! I’ve been seeing a lot of Calvinist/Reformed things lately so would you consider doing an episode on refuting the Calvinist view of free will?
Had a protestant tell me a few weeks ago, *"Peter didn't know the meaning of the cross."* A shocking statement. He was having a hard time reconciling 1 Pet 3: 21 with his baptismal theology.
Typical, sola scriptura gets thrown away when it doesnt fit their theology, i am shocked, it makes sense why james and hebrews were almost thrown out of the bible by luther, litterraly contradicts sola fide
Definitely going to use this in my Bible study tomorrow.
Great teaching, makes so much sense. Thank you
RC Sproul goes through some serious mental gymnastics. It’s fascinating when Protestant apologists are walking a very tight rope their voice changes. It’s that “please believe me, edge of tears, I’m grasping at straws” voice. It’s usually followed by hyperventilation and ended with some 2 or 3 word phrase to punctuate what is essentially babble.
He may as well have said the color of yellow is square.
Wow! This one's a marathon. You could probably have milked 3 episodes out of this one! Great content, though.
I knew these things in my heart and soul, but I would never have been able to put it into words like this. Please talk about this more on your channel. Your explanation and description are perfect, but in my deepest intellectual understanding, I am still lacking in the profound theological expression of this concept or, better stated, the mystery. Thank you so very much for this discussion.
This video was very helpful. Thank you!
Great explanation! Thank you Joe!
Excellent 👌👌👏👏🌹🌹
This is an amazing episode. Thank you for your work Joe!
25:55 "You stole fizzy lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get nothing! You lose!"
Beautiful! Thanks for taking the time here, Joe! Given this excellent and unhurried unpacking, how can we fail to fall in love with our Lord all over again? So it is that His sacrifice out of divine love is this beginning and end of history and shows us the path to Heaven. Amen.
How dare you apologize. We came to you for this. This is part of your offering. ✌️❤️🔥✝️
I want to see Cy introduce you as the host of Shameless Potpourri next time you're on Catholic Answers live.
I remember many years ago hearing how the "Father toke out his wrath on Jesus" and felt so repugnant at that idea. Thanks for this great explanation of our beautiful Catholic view of Jesus sin offering on the cross. Thank you.
I have been watching several of your shows and I am enjoying them! Do you have a Patreon or locals? You should get one if not. I suggest locals people will support you. Also do you do interviews?
No no not long enough episode. Awesome episode thank you Gid bless.
Thank you so much for this podcast. It has been life-changing for me. God bless you.
This was the best explanation of this topic that I have ever heard! ❤
At 14:33 This is where Protestants get the Bible wrong, not only at this specific part but all throughout the Bible. The verse isn't meant to be taken literal. God never forsakes Jesus, and Jesus isn't asking, why? "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" is the first line in Psalm 22. The first line in the Psalm is the title, just like the first line in the Our Father is "Our Father". And the first line in the Hail Mary is "Hail Mary". What Jesus is doing is part of his Hebrew culture, it's a part of his upbringing. Jesus is reciting Psalm 22. Unfortunately, Protestants take everything in the Bible literally and are completely ignorant of the culture and context.
*History and context. In the most general sense, Psalm 22 is about a person who is crying out to God to save him from the taunts and torments of his enemies, and (in the last ten verses) thanking God for rescuing him.*
“Unfortunately, Protestants take everything in the Bible literally.” That’s simply untrue. Take communion or the Eucharist for example. Protestants generally believe that it is symbolic, whereas Catholics believe that it is literally the body and blood of Christ. 🤔
“Unfortunately, Protestants take everything in the Bible literally.” That’s simply untrue. Take communion or the Eucharist for example. Protestants generally believe that it is symbolic, whereas Catholics believe that it is literally the body and blood of Christ. 🤔
@@sayhello5377 do you think that literally eating the flesh and blood of Christ will give you life, eternal life and that He will abide in you? If so, an unbeliever could attend mass weekly, eat the body of Christ and be saved. Without any faith whatsoever!
I have watched this like 10 times and will watch it many more times.
Thanks so much for this truly incredible episode!!💯🔥
I had never heard this view before, growing up on penal substitution. I have to seriously think this over.
Thank you Joe ❤ this was very helpful 🙏
This has been my favorite episode so far. I watched it twice!
Soooo good, Joe!! Thank you brother! 👏👏👏
John McArthur is consistently spewing errors. he's one of the worst Biblical scholars i've ever encountered, apart from one of the most anti-Catholic. so glad for your rebuttals and explanations to counter his erroneous teachings.
(and good to see the increase in text size!)
That is the point of the video; to attack via Mcarthur et al. Mcarthur takes it upon himself to destroy catholicism with no quarter given. Joe is fighting back and tars all prots with calvinism.
Great video. Thank you very much Joe! God bless you.
Thanks so much, Joe! This is such a solid summary. This needs to be on your short list of podcats to bookify. I would give this to beloved Calvinist friends.
Thank you, Joe. At 23:56, and again at 27:27, the commentary you attributed to RC Sproul is actually John Piper, not Sproul.
Really great stuff!
Dr. Scott Hahn does a wonderful job explaining the connection between the Last Supper and the Crucifixion in his video "The Fourth Cup": ua-cam.com/video/v1yAvrVoYzo/v-deo.html
And the late Father Richard John Neuhaus' ruminations on the Crucifixion in his excellent book "Death on a Friday Afternoon" are esse Tualatin reading. I highly recommend both.
Thanks for making this video, this has shown me a lot that I've never heard before. Can you please recommend any other resources that go into depth on this topic? Thanks
This is absolutely brilliant work! Well done. A number of years ago I was trying to refute an author who was sympathetic to Christus Victor who was trying to blame PSA on St. Anselm and Aquinas. This presentation would have come in really handy.
What would you say, however, to Reformed who bring up proof texts like Gal 3:13 (cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree) and Isaiah 53:5 (he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities)?
That was Amazing. Thank You
I like Christus Victor theory myself. Good video
Thank you for this! Tremendously informative! God bless you!
Thank you so much for this video. It was soul healing. An Idea: for the good of the souls, make a clip from 58:16 to 59:43 so we can make it viral.
Yes it was long and very edifying.....very well done
I think reformed thinkers usually reject the communication of idioms. That would explain why they don’t see the trinitarian problems.
St. Athanasius answered this many, many centuries ago. Read "On the Incarnation."
Joe, you did a great job organizing this material. McArthur and Sproul's theories on penal substitution are wrong in so may ways. The more they try to explain, the worse it gets. Their stories just don't sound plausible - maybe something a Jr. HS kid would come up with if he didn't pay attention in class or read the material. I certainly can't imagine someone with Philosophy or Psychology classes believing this view.
41:47 is when he starts describing what IS a proper view of the cross
Now I understand! Thank you! It was long but it needed to be. Hats off for bringing opposite views without strawmaning
As a Texas Tech Red Raider, you almost converted me on the spot with the Mahomes reference 😂
I’ve been a Chiefs fan because of him ever since y’all drafted him.
I like the episode, I’ve been a Christus Victor guy myself for a few years after rejecting PSA as logically incoherent and morally offensive.
Also, I would point out that the idea of what makes the sacrifice necessary is underdeveloped in this video. You touched on it, but did not fully flesh it out.
He redeems humanity by taking on and perfecting human nature. The cross plays a role in this perfection as it shows extreme obedience, but it’s primarily the vehicle for shedding his blood, which gets applied to us through the Eucharist. We who eat the sacrifice are then both joined to the cross and then ontologically transformed into what we consumed (you are what you eat) by transmutation, as St Justin Martyr puts it.
Anyway, excellent episode. It makes me feel much better to know that I am not the only one who picked up on the inadequacy and lunacy of PSA.
I wonder what Christian tradition you are a Part of that you reject Penal Substitutionary Atonement without being Catholic. Are you Orthodox? I am confused. I always thought that PSA and Protestantism go hand in hand
@@awuriefnejqwjmnwn4960I am a Lutheran
Dear@@awuriefnejqwjmnwn4960, naw, Protestants are all over the place! They have no one, single cogent theology! The only unifying factor in their beliefs is that the Catholic Church is Wrong.
I didnt even know i understood this the wrong way, thanks for the video Joe!
This is probably the best explanation and refutation of penal substitution that I've heard. However, I would be interested in hearing how you understand the typology between the Abraham and Isaac story and the crucifixion because there does seem to be a clear link.
Also, how to properly understand the "wrath" of God. Is it simply the Father's discipline of His children or something more?
Very well done !
Excellent, thank you!
Thanks, Joe; I really enjoyed listening to this teaching. Could you go into more detail about how Jesus, as the Lamb of God, takes away the sin of the world? I think St Peter describes it as bearing our sins in his own body on the tree (1 Peter 2:24) - this is something that seems difficult to understand. How can sins be taken away or borne?
Enjoying the video, but just a quick reminder that a talk preached at a Protestant sermon is typically referred to as a sermon rather than a homily.
Great video.
0:00: 💭 Exploring the significance of the Crucifixion in Christianity and its relevance to believers.
6:59: ⚡ The theological implications of Jesus being considered the worst sinner in history and cursed by God.
14:14: 💫 Eternal trinitarian relationship maintained through Incarnation with exception of Crucifixion moment.
21:29: 💬 Inadequacy of transferring punishment to innocent person in the context of justice and theology.
29:25: ⚖️ Explaining how Christ's sacrifice pays for sins and the concept of eternal damnation.
35:58: 💡 Problem with Christ's priesthood being destroyed in Penal Substitution theory.
42:52: 💫 The significance of the Crucifixion in Christianity is misrepresented as portraying Jesus as guilty of all sins, which contradicts his sinless nature.
50:01: ⚖️ Christ's passion provides superabundant atonement for all sins, rejecting limited atonement views.
56:52: ⚖️ God's declaration of righteousness in the 16th century Reformation theology explained through imputation and transformation.
1:03:35: 💡 The significance of Old Testament sacrifices and the concept of overpayment in relation to forgiveness.
1:10:20: 🤯 The concept of 'sin' in Hebrew has a dual meaning, referring to both sin and sin offering, shedding light on the interpretation of Christ becoming sin.
1:16:40: ⚖️ The New Testament emphasizes love and obedience over Divine violence in the crucifixion narrative.
1:23:15: 💫 The significance of suffering in Catholic and Orthodox theology, offering it up for others' benefit.
Recap by Tammy AI
This is so good! ‼️
Hi Joe, does Isaiah 53 especially v10 add credence to the idea of 'the Father pouring out His Wrath upon the Son?' or the penal substitution model?