I haven't finished the video yet, but "mistaking rudeness for strength" seems to be a common flaw in Amazon fantasy productions. Galadriel was very similar to me in ROP. :/
It's part of... a certain narrative, that women don't exist to please... usually speaking about men. IME, this is something only women, usually a specific subset, say.
@@Bookborn yes... don't know why they do this. Even if you want to make them "manly", most strong male characters are not rude, they are infact very humble like Bruce Willis in die hard or keanu reeves in John wick. That's what increases there badassery
its ok. it was replaced with Nynaeve being a bad ass swordswoman cuz basically this is the Wheel of Nynaeve and Moiraine. everyone else is a backdrop pretty much, especially the 3 boys.
They can't really have Mat do any of the tower stuff because he wasn't "supposed" to be there. As much as I love that moment, I can understand why they didn't do it. What I am confused about, though, is if the dagger storyline is removed, why haven't we just moved on to the stuff in book 3 and start his luck stuff way earlier? That's the interesting bit anyway.
I was looking forward to that scene when he was let out of his cell. I understand why they didn't do it, though. They would have to introduce Elayne's two brothers and set Mat up in the tower for a bit. We can only hope we get a different version of it later on. It was a great moment.
I was super upset by this too. but then they showed that his luck hasn't kicked in yet, soooo... maybe we can hold out hope that they will do it later?
Show Matt knowing how to use a staff now, or shoot a bow seems a little out of character. They did the thing in the extra’s, I’m counting on nothing else. Be awesome but not counting on it.
Just imagine if Robert Jordan had Nynaeve's block be rudeness instead of anger/fear. She would never channel, because that would paint the character into the corner, and RJ would own it ... unlike these brainchild showrunners.
Every time I force myself to think "It's ok, this is a different turning of the wheel" I can't help but wish they had picked a better turning of it to film...
I cant even go with that since they made choices earlier that changed how the world / magic works. So they have changed RJ's world, different turning or not. I pretty much only watch channels that are "critical" of the show anymore. Not going to watch it on amazon and not watching the fanboi channels that feel this show can do no wrong.
@@Bookborn At this point, I feel like they just don’t like Mat at all. They could have given him his TDR plot line since he started the season in the Tower, but instead we get this weird plot line of him getting pushed around by Liandrin and Min.
@@PrinceofRavens64it feels like spite towards Mat’s character at this point. He’s in the Tower, so they had the perfect setup to have him being cheeky with the Amyrlin, showing his quarterstaff skills against Galad and Gawyn, and demonstrating his famous loyalty to his friends by escaping the Tower with his luck, on his own (rather than being duped), to save the girls in Falme. Instead, he’s still a sad, useless extra who is just manipulated and led around by other characters. He makes no real decisions and accomplishes nothing. He has no agency and any scene he’s in is just boring filler (very much like Lan). Why is he even in the show?
I think the problem with the story telling in the show is, well, their not really telling a story, they're simply dropping story beats every so often with a bunch of non-story driving filler in between, and filler that's drawn out _way_ too long! The main problem, I think, with the Rand and Selene relationship is they decided to omit how they met and the "why" of why Rand fell for her. This gives the relationship zero substance...they're just banging. So yeah, him apparently admitting love comes way out of left field. Plus, unfortunately, one of Lanfear's driving forces for her character is Rand _not_ falling for her, which she wants desperately so they can rule the world together. But even that would mean little in context of the show, because Lanfear's character hasn't been established at all. This show thinks suspense can only be obtained through a mystery box and by omitting info from the viewer. Had we been introduced to Lanfear early, maybe as Ishamael freed her and they had a conversation about her love for Lews Therin and how he's been reborn to this world, then later we saw her wooing Rand, I feel there would've been much greater suspense knowing she was evil from the start and his inherent blindness to the fact. That's my two cents. I'll actually be surprised if they do establish her character at all. Instead, I think they'll just believe her name is enough. Too often this show seems written with prior book knowledge needed in order to clue in to it, even though they want this show to be for non book readers. It often relies on the viewer to pause and see the X-Ray info in order to get any low down on any character. For example, in the first three episodes, even though Ingtar seems to be leading Perrin's expedition, but in the show they haven't dropped his name once. Except for when we met him in S01, briefly and with nothing that would make a viewer remember him, other than that he died. Without subtitles or the X-Ray info, I don't think most viewers would even know who this is.
I think Lanfear being let loose at the end of S1 would've been the perfect cliff hanger, specially if you open S2 with Ishy and her having a convo like you mention. Then in the next scene you have the mysterious woman show up at Rand and try to seduce him while he's just trying to get away from everyone. The audience would've gotten to the right place without needing to change much else.
I totally agree on how you say that the show is weirdly relying on book-readers knowledge while also not attempting to honor the book plot itself, which puts it in a super strange spot. And totally agree about showing us a flashback at least to when Rand and Selene met - it would be cool to make the viewers start to really like her before the reveal!
@@Bookborn Well, it's too late now, isn't it? And please check my criticism of the editing of her actions and history as it is. There is a major error they made which was super simple to avoid, even if only by placing the blood woman scene in one of the three earlier episodes. Don't tell what's happening (a Tom Clancy move, actually), just drop it in basically wherever. Putting it in where it absolutely doesn't belong would actually have been best but to put it in the middle of this episode mangles the whole thought process.
@@Bookbornthis was my exact thoughts on the rings of power. Tons of characters from the simarillion that a non reading audience wouldn't know our care about and who aren't explained properly. And for the ones that have read the simarillion those same characters are so far removed from how they are depicted in the books. It's a great way to simultaneously alienate casual viewers with complexity and hardcore fans with unfaithful portrayals. I'd say the wheel of time is only slightly guilty of the same thing, for the most part I'm enjoying it. My biggest problem is the use or lack thereof of the one power. This is my first time watching your videos and have to say I really appreciate the refreshing measured criticism as opposed to some channels who seem hell bent on seeing the show fail and review it accordingly.
What I find weird is that they tried to get the Selene seduction plotline but didn't keep the context around it at all. She wouldn't just be having sex with him all the time. She would simply entice him with the idea of it. Also, Lanfear, if it was true to her character, would have instead tried to get Rand to take over Cairhien.
Good point with the repetitive nature of some of the scenes. For a show having only 8 episodes a season, they really dont seem able to focus on the important bits.
Yeah it's funny because a lot of us thought they'd have to race through plot points too quickly to get through it all, but instead they seem to be taking their sweet time. I still can't believe we've just had Perrin meet hopper after all that setup!
What they've done to Moiraine and Lan this season is unconscionable. Also the editing this episode was all over the place. When we first cut to Lan with the other warders I thought for a bit that we were cutting back to Nynaeve's dream sequence from the arch. And in the scene with Egwene and Nynaeve when she reaches for the ring they very clearly used the same reaction shot twice for Egwene and spliced it in really weirdly.
@@Bookborn Considering how it came right after Nynaeve was talking about the trial, the tonal shift compared to how we've seen Lan thus far, and his outfit/hair being so close to what they were in the dream sequence, it's pretty easy to mix it up
This series meant so much to me when I finished the last book and after Season 1, I was really bummed out. I was telling myself I would give Season 2 a try but I just can't do it. Like you said, not in a "I hate this" type of way...I just am not enjoying the choices they have made. I have been enjoying your series of comparisons though so thank you for that. This has got to be the most honest review of the show out there.
@@Bookborn I get there's like a lot of changes to it but we have to remember they can't make 12 seasons/13 so they're trying to compromise even though season one had a lot of botched information that was important
@@kyneilennobody is against cutting stuff. Everyone realises the practicalities involved. The issue however is that it is putting in all kinds of filler and fanfiction and wasting a bunch of runtime instead of adapting the important stuff or staying true to the characters even in spirit.
Completely agree with you. My issue with the show at this point, and especially after last night's episode, is that it's honestly just more boring than it is "bad." I felt exactly what you described of just sitting there watching and it just not doing anything for me.
Yeah like I don't feel strongly enough to hate anything lmao just am like "we are still with Lan and the Warders? When will something happen?" And so then when something does happen, it's very exciting, but it always feels like a short burst and never sustained.
So much praise for this episode online, I honestly feel like I'm missing something. It was soooo slow and exposition heavy. Hopefully, now that Rand is with Moraine we can actually get some character development for him because this sad I need a friend Rand is getting dull. That said...Hoper joining the cast is amazing, Lanfear actress is great, Ishmaeil continues to intrigue and I think they've made a good choice with the wolf language, that was always going to be hard to bring to screen without being like a cheesey wolf voice over.
I was confused also,for me this was on par with GOT Season 8 Episode 6.I want to understand what was good.There was so much coincidence in things happening,like for example Moiraine just comes and kills Selene and tells Rand "She is Lanfear,lets run" and he just accepts it and comes with her?
Totally agree that Rand has gotten so dull and I just really hope that now he's with moiraine we will get some development! I really loved Moiraine/Rand's contentious or rather push/pull relationship in the books and would like to see it here.
I mean, they set this ridiculous precedent in episode 1 season 1 when Moraine just rocks up and takes all the kids with her, no questions asked. @@kristiandonchev2641
I completely agree with everything you said. I found your channel last season after watching the second episode. I needed to understand the story more because watching the show left me a lil lost.I have enjoyed your videos each week because you provide clarity that the show isn’t giving. Because of your videos, I have decided to read the books. Idk how long this show will last.
I will be so sad if we don't get the Moiraine moment from book 5, it's my favorite scene in the entire series. I heard a theory that the end of this episode replaces a Moiraine scene from book 3 with a different forsaken, so hopefully that one is correct. The Lan scenes from this episode have been the worst part of the whole season for me. This episode for me was by far the weakest of the season until the last 15 minutes. I'm just so ready for the Lan/Moiraine storyline to wrap up.
Oh yeah, I think we will for sure still get another showdown between Lanfear and Moiraine, but I've been suspecting that perhaps cutting off moiraine from the one source is to replace something else that happens at the end of that showdown so they don't get rid of Rosamund Pike...
While Moiraine was a great char, she was not a main char or even one of the main supporting chars. I don't see how the series will make sense by keeping her as the main focus.
@@Bookborn That is a good point, I cant see them having a full season or 2 without her. They've pushed so hard, season one particularly, to make her the main character instead of Rand
It explicitly said that she was Morain's younger sister. They have been leaning into the power extending a channeler's lifespan. The pre-Lan event that changed Morain was the foretelling of the Dragon when Rand was born. She met Lan later on her search for the Dragon.
I couldn't agree more than the reveal scene for Lanfear is so lackluster because there is no proper development in that relationship. It isn't this big dramatic moment that they were hoping for but really, it is just so disappointing because it could have been established so much better. It also felt kind of rushed in that the whole episode was like the build up to Lanfear rather than doing that over the course of several episodes.
Def SUPER rushed, even knowing Lanfear I found it a bit confusing that she was "confused/hurt/get away" and then...in the same conversation... "you're perfect!" Like...what? lmao. Also why were they sleeping outside when the house is apparently hers? Can anyone explain that to me 😭
my mom (non book reader) was shocked that Selene was Lanfear, and was like "He loves her? so he's over the other girl!?" (meaning egwaine) So yeah, she cares about this, but the time skipping and stuff didnt seem to hit as well
Love your review. Like your friends who message you about Morraine, my friends message me about Lan. Lan is a beast in the book. He doesn’t lose. A few trollocs are warm up for him. Other warders look up to him. Wherever he goes, people reference the sword as a third limb of his. I will say, I’m liking the show because I’m a fan of the world and I’ll always have my books. But why oh why do I have to keep watching Lan walk around with no purpose with two warders no one cares about from the books.
Once again, for me, it's all about contrast. If we saw Lan in season 1 being unbeatable, and then he feels downtrodden in season 2, there would be development, it would be an arc. But because we never get to see him succeed, it's harder to understand where this storyline fits.
@@Bookborn duty is heavier than a mountain, death is lighter than a feather. Not trying to criticize your approach but in season 1 people were against Lan's portrayal with the nipple pinching scene, but this is the season he actually teaches not just swordsmanship but this philosophy to Rand which stays with him till the end
And there's the little detail that he's the only wetlander the Aiel respect. (The Man who is a Nation). And this is a good place to say that I want whoever cast Aviendha is color blind.
Absolutely on point with Moirraine even in season 1 she has never felt like Moirraine. The show fundamentally ignores the fact that to her core Moirraine is a MACHIAVELLIAN she is Blue Ajah for God's sake! She wears her emotions on her sleeves too much and never seems composed as much as she should be. Every scene with her we should be Tring to guess what her ploy is at. The only time in the books we actually see the real Moirraine is in the 'letter' and New spring simply because that's an origin story. The only time this episode I saw book Moirraine is when she was talking with Logaine however you can't have sporadic moments to justify this being Moirraine. If you wanna do this character properly then she needs to be like this 100% of the time
The bond stuff is a bit confusing but it is for sure not severed. Moiraine masked the bond when she left with Rand to go to the EOTW, then she got shielded (not stilled). Ishamael says specifically that she can feel it but not touch it, which is classic shielding. It’s also the same thing Liandrin says to Nynaeve she she shields her early in S2. When Lan reaches Moiraine he asks her to unmask the bond, but because Moiraine can’t currently touch the source, she can’t unmask the bond. So the bond is still there, but masked. This mirrors some of the symptoms of a severed bond (no connection of feeling) but notably not the suicidal/super depression caused by a severed bond. Which is why Lan AND Moiraine are doing so well individually with the change. They just don’t connect with each other because the bond cannot be unmasked until Moiraine regains access to the source. So then in S2E2 Moiraine says she’ll have Lan bonded to Alanna by force, if necessary. But clearly this hasn’t happened, as there’s zero mention of Lan being part of the bond with Alanna and the warders and Alanna asks if Lan will follow them to the tower, which he would have an obligation to do if he were bonded to Alanna. Alanna also suggests Lan should bond Nyneave. Alanna also confirms the bond was not ripped from them (like it would be with stilling/death), but rather Moiraine “took it.” Which is true, because Moiraine voluntarily masked it. The show has purposefully obfuscated the exact status of the bond, but every clue points to these foregoing conclusions, in my opinion.
I enjoy the videos, but I'm starting to wonder if it even makes sense anymore to compare the show to the books. They are so far off the rails that it seems somewhat futile. I feel like this show is failing in multiple ways: it's obvious the showrunner and writers don't respect the author and his story and have decided they can tell a better story. So its failing as an adaptation. But then they story that they are trying to tell is bad on its own. If it was different but good, that would be one thing (personally, that's how I view the Witcher). But its different and bad, which is twice the pain.
I think the Bourne movies are actually a perfect example of "different but good". Those movies are INSANELY different from the books, but I enjoy both. Anyway, I do think the characters and actions are still rooted in the books so I think it's possible to talk about it, but certainly in different terms than season 1 - it's more about broad strokes than specifics for sure.
@@Bookborn that is a great example of an adaptation that is different but good. I'm making the mistake of rereading TGH and TDR. There's so many chapters that I think "that would make a great scene." The sad part is that now we'll never get a true adaptation of tWOT. Rafe has squandered our one chance.
Whether we are comparing the show to the books or remembering what should be happening right now, I’m happy you’re making these videos. It’s so much better to have a community of people who are feeling just as gaslit. 😳😬😂
Did you catch how many times they drubbed we the viewers over the head with aes sedai age? 3 show dont tells and 1 on expose incase where stupid. Than also every single plot point is taken based upon a single throwaway lines in the novels. The perrin wife - book 4 The warders training nynaeve - book 2 Min wanting to lose the images - in passibg to rand once Mat being a thief - book 1 him stealing honeycakes Its just all one liners which are not their character
As a book fan I was actully a bit stressed with this seasons release. As an adaptation season 1 was terrible, but I thought they might be able to turn around the writing and make it enjoyable. The characters just seem depressing to me. They took away the joy from the young cast before the story even begain. Part of what pulls Rand back from despair is love for those around him. I don't see that at all. I really thought that I would make it through this season at least, but it's like you said. It's just not a fun show to watch. I look forward to your reviews and hope the show gets better.
I think making the characters less innocent is reallllyyy coming back to bite them right now, PARTICULARLY with Mat. They made season 1 mat super dark before the dagger, then they removed the dagger so quickly, and now mat feels a little more fun/silly but it makes ZERO sense within context of the show. I know it's a different actor and that's not the shows fault, but the whiplash I've gotten from the differences in characters is large. And same with Selene and Rand...Rand being less innocent means it's harder to tell his character development as the one power changes him.
@@Bookborn "I know it's a different actor and that's not the shows fault" You're giving the creators of the show too much benefit of the doubt. It's a director's job to get the _right_ performance out of an actor, and the actor's job to _interpret_ what the director wants. The director and the actor use the screenplay to understand the character. I really do not understand this insistence that Barney Harris leaving somehow destroyed Mat's story within this show. If the showrunners are _that_ incompetent, perhaps they shouldn't be running the show?
lol yes that's what I'm saying, like she's 42 in the books. They did age up all the characters though, so if I'm being generous, 50. However, they also aged up Liandrin a lot. I think this is their way of doing "ageless". Moiraine is apparently around 80/90 but looks in her 40s. Liandrian is apparently much, MUCH older, since her son is so old.
But they think they can do what ever they want and that we that have read/listen to the books 4+ times don't remember the story line. They should have just hierd a bunch of book lovers to write the show and it had most likely been 10 times better for half the cost 😂
My expectations were low after season 1, but this show hasn't even met that low bar. I don't understand who they're making it for - They don't explain anything well so non-readers don't understand what's happening or why it's important (partly because they decided to use their precious time to do non-important things), and they make everything different from the books so most readers don't like it. This show has a really weird online presence, where there is a small group of people endlessly praising the show as if it can do no wrong, drowning out any criticism. You can like the show, that's fine. But no objective person can say that it's amazing or flawless.
I completely agree, the show seems to have a strange cult Twitter following and like all of their handles are characters from the books. I feel like I’m going nuts sometimes when I read the things they say
The show DOES have a really weird online presence; it's either drowning in endless praise or drowning in endless hatred, both sides seem weird when mostly I feel like it's mediocre 💀
ive started calling those weirdos that are supposed book fans but who defend as every single decision as awesome and talk down to any criticism with the line ITS AN ADAPTATION as showcloacks. they are as bad as the bookcloacks that want everything exactly the same. 2 sides of the same idiot coin.
I dont understand what your problem is with people who are enjoying this show. Not everyone is critical about everything. Some people just want to sit back and watch a show. Part of the problem is people like you who constantly whine and cry about how bad the show is yet they get up and watch it. Here is a simple solution. If you dont like it dont watch it. And stop whining about how bad it is in every social media platform available. Eventually when enough of you will stop watching and talking about it, Amazon will drop it for sure. And surely making youtube videos wont help your cause.
One thing that bothered me in this episode was Ishamael releasing Lanfear. That seems out of line with the Forsaken - they are not typically helping each other out. If you look at the interaction between Lanfear and Ishamael in TDR (that Perrin eavesdrops on in the world of dreams), they were not allies. He would not have gone to release her. He would have wanted to have the new world all to himself.
They've made Ishamael the leader of the forsaken, which isn't the case at this point in the story. It makes sense to show him releasing another forsaken. We don't really know how that happens in the books, they're just free in the world. Having that visual for how the forsaken are in the world isn't the worst thing.
So another episode with no book content. I have no doubt that Bookborn makes more sense here than anything in the show, plus has better video quality. What's with making everything so dark unless it's to hide how poor the scenes are. So we are 4 episodes in (plus 5-6 months of off-screen time) and for our characters: Rand: Hung a lantern, had sex, killed a civilian, had sex, learned how to do a fetch quest, had sex Mat: Sat in a cell, lay down in a cell, cried, didn't realise which wall led to the outside, ran away Perrin: Wrote a letter Lan: Walked around without a shirt on, died to a fade's blade, resurrected (who provided the tears we do not know), watered a tree, having to consider if he'd like some D Moiraine: Abusive to everyone, died to a fade's blade, resurrected, treated more people like dirt, apparently set everything up off screen Lanfear: had sex Ishy: Decided not to kill Mat even though he knew he was in the Tower, decided not to kill Perrin, decided not to kill Rand Bookborn how do you manage to keep doing these reviews!?
Yeah because before the prophecy Moiraine was like any other student but after the prophecy she and Siuan dedicated themselves to finding the dragon reborn for 20 years. And so she changed from a careless novice/accepted to an intense person with an iron will and no one knew where this intensity came from.
She made it sound like she was attacked or something lol that's why I was like...what is she talking about? But I suppose getting her duty makes sense. But book Lan would've...known about that lol @@mohamedfarah168
I'm binging your first 4 episode videos since my wife and I are behind on watching due to life (kids/work/etc.). These videos are helping me because my wife keeps asking me questions about who/what/where and I try to tell her that the show is doing a lot of things that don't happen the books, some characters are combined/removed, some have different motivations, and so on. One thing I will say, I feel like Ishamael and Liandrin are killing their roles which I hope means good things for the show since compelling villains really make things interesting, at least generally. Thanks for the content!
Bookborn, you're amazingly polite. You see the man behind the curtain and your analysis is correct. That's some Canadian levels of politeness you've got there. I'm pretty grumpy-old-man about this whole waste of an opportunity. Moiraine to me is the embodiment of Motherhood. She literally dedicated her life to finding, protecting, and teaching the Dragon Reborn. (Avoiding spoilers just in case.) Queenly, as her name entones. She is patient, intelligent, and strong. She sacrifices her own comforts to help those around her, often giving but never getting- especially with healing. Like any well-developed character, she is not perfect. Manipulation is her thing, but never rudeness. At her heart, she is truly good, and that bothers those that find everything problematic. It's sounds to me like you've arrived at your "Say a prayer, and ride on." moment. Those of us who actually love R.J.'s work are with you.
I agree with you. It's just lame TV. I've read the books twice. I see the books and the TV show as two completely different experiences. I am bored with the TV series.
Half the problem is that there just isn’t as much time to develop the stories enough. We used to have 24(!) episodes of a season for a show. That was so much more time with each character. I think the problem with shows nowadays is that the 8 episodes really aren’t enough to tell the whole story.
Exactly. 8 1-hour episodes can't do anything to match with 24 40-minute episodes like we used to have. I feel like Game of Thrones is partly responsible for this when it got reduced in the final seasons to fewer but longer episodes. And we all know how destructive that was to the story and characters. I don't know if it's because making TV shows has become too expensive to have so many episodes or if it's a reflection of the writers' inability to show and develop characters so instead they just jump from plot point to plot point (which definitely happened in GoT). I'm getting so lost watching this show. Rings of Power did it too. When I'm watching the WoT show, I feel like half of it has been edited out. Hence why I'm here trying to figure out what I've missed. For example, in E4 or E5, Egwene gets captured. And the other 2 realise she is captured. And then the scene ends. Um, what? Surely they would run back and see if they could rescue her? Nynaeve would blast them all with her super powers or at least realise that it's hopeless and watch as Egwene is carted off while they follow from a distance and talk about what they'll do next. But no. Egwene gets captured and the other 2 just cease to exist. On to the next story point. There's just no flow or weight to what is happening.
What about the min/mat plotline. Mat is kocke dup by liandrin for y months Liandrin knows mat will dig into mins cell. She arranges for mat and min to become lovers. They get released Min gambles mat loses Mat and min talkabout fucking. Min meets ishamael This was arrabged by liandrin Ishamael wants min to deliver mat to cairhien. The issue is how did liandrin know mat would tunnel to min. Also it was 6 months in jail. So now we need min to take mat to cairhien.... Its jsut massive convoluted, plot contrivances in every sibgle moment
This may have been mentioned in another comment, but even back in season one I could tell the show caters to book readers vs. newbies. It’s really jarring, something I’m not used to. Even having read them, I still feel like they should explain more what this world *is*. Why is the dark one so scary? Even scaled down its throwing a lot at the audience all the time. This series is just difficult to adapt. One thing I enjoy and always take note of is the background/set pieces. Very elaborate with a lot of care put into it. It’s not something I typically look at during a first watch.
Ok so the first time they leave the tower Liandrin definitely lures them out secretly to help their friends in Falme. You're thinking of the second time these 3 leave the tower when Suian sends them. I also don't like spending time watching TV, but I am finding myself really dying to watch the next episode. I really did love this episode a lot because I prepped myself to not think about the books.😅 Except the Lans scenes definitely dragged and felt pointless even if i enjoyed little bits here and there. You make very good points. Especially rudeness being mistaken for strength. Great point.
My other thought is that I think the whole show feels wrong on a certain level, even to non book readers because of their choice to make Moraine look like the main character. That choice is messing everything else up, and though I live Rosamund Like, I'm kind of starting to resent her because she ruined the show possibilities with her fame.☹️
OH OK someone else told me it was book 3 and I was like "no, seanchan is def book 2!!" But the Suian stuff isn't until book 3 - I knew Liandrian lured them out but I thought they were expecting it because of Suian. It all runs together at this point LOL
@@paulkelly2701 No, I can't agree with you on that... although it is rather significant. It pales in comparison to finding the Horn, for example. The thing I referred to really only matters to Egwene. Rand destroying the Trolloc army from the Eye matters far more than the Egwene thing. Even Perrin's story with the wolves matters at least as much... and most likely more than what happens to Egwene in the specific (single) instance that I mentioned. Mat's experience with the Dagger probably also has more important long-term consequences... Think of the holes in his memory that the Dagger gives him, and what he does about those holes, and the effects THAT has. FAR more important, IMO. On top of that, it gives Rand an idea that also has FAR more far-reaching effects. Hell, Perrin killing a couple of Whitecloaks has about as much effect as the "Egwene incident"... because it affects him as much, AND affects more people.
Don't be sorry. Its not a good show let alone an adaptation. I was rooting for it as well until I realized they weren't going to tell Robert Jordan's story so now I'm hoping they cancel ASAP just so we can disassociate this show from the books as quickly as we can. We'll probably never see another attempt to get our beloved ip adapted properly but we can hope and dream.
100% I think this is instead of the book 5 stuff for Moraine, and I think logane training him is b/c the forsaken that should do it wont exist in the show. I think the book 5 stuff wont happen the same way b/c they might cut out the whole snakes and foxes stuff completely
As a non book reader it was pretty clear to me right from the get go that Selene was going to be a nefarious character. Then with the cold open in the 4th episode you instantly knew it was her, which is fine except foe the fact that if you have any sense you already knew she was a baddie. Its still a bit of a disjointed show that has good moments so you keep watching. The world that Jordan created seems to be quite interesting and rich so really it just makes me what to read the books. The Rand admitting he was in love part I viewed as a younger man getting caught up and misunderstanding what love is. That might not have been how it was meant to be interpreted though.
As someone that is a book reader first that's watching the show for the same reason you said, to see the characters that I already love pictured on the screen, your reviews best represent how I feel about the show.
Wasnt Lan's warder bond dropped when she was cut off from the one power? Maxsim was talking to Lan at the well about what warders go through without the bond and assumed that it had been only 2 weeks, Lan then said it was 6 months, the time from the breaking. That's how I'd interpreted it so far at least. Interested to see where the tower story goes, obviously they are setting up the Black Ajah but to do it in this way? Seems like they are have the 3 "run" from the tower to escape Liandrin and help their friends, when its the Siuan Sanche who sends them out to investigate them in the books. Where the hells did she go btw? The handling of Matt and Min so far has been a bit of a let down, If they hadn't had to switch actors i can only assume he would have been with Perrin for the show, I don't recall what Min was up to during book 3 and 4. It does seem like they are bringing everyone together tho.
I think you have mixed up Books 2 & 3's plot for the girls. Siuan sends the girls to hunt the Black Ajah in Book 3 and the girls end up in Tear. In Book 2, it happens mostly like in the show, where Liandrin tells the girls that someone is in trouble (I think Rand) and they follow her to Falme. I think the Rand/Selene plot wasn't repetitive but I think it could have used more development.
I am just getting pissed when I watch this TV adaptions because so much is changed from the books. And so many choices are so crappy and makes no sense at all.
Actually, the Aes Sedai "ageless face" is a pretty big deal in the books. It's how most people identify aes sedai. There's no good way to do that in the show, so they seem to just be going with the idea that they age really slowly. Which also happens in the books.
I gotta say, I don’t see this show as an adaptation. I think it’s fan fiction at best, feels like they think they can write a better wheel of time then Robert Jordan did. It’s such a contrast to the One Piece live action which felt like it was made with so much love for the source material. Also at 8:10 of the latest episode of WOT, they reused the same shot they used not even a second prior for absolutely no reason, a nitpick but it really threw me of.
Oh my word! It so is!! At 8 :10 of the episode Egwene leans in to look at Nynaeve's new hideous ring, then at 8 :15 it's the exact same shot of Egwene focusing on the ring and leaning in! Why the hell would they do that? Just weird.
Rafe is a hack. and not only its his fan fiction. it feels like its fan fiction from when he was 14 years old and just discovering himself sexually. This feels like something a teen would enjoy.
I gave up on the tv series in season 1. But I still watch reviews of the show. I feel like an ex still trying to get news of the person they dumped. 😀😂🤣
This episode broke me dude. More Lan deconstruction, opposite Mat, Rand living out 13 yr old boys from the 90s wet dreams, liandrin liandrin liandrin go away already, the sexual innuendo in every scene thats not rand banging a forsaken is just, it's telling. Oh Min working for the forsaken is just, I stopped there 1st time lol. I needed more bourbon. I actually liked Perrin and Elyas scenes. The rest needs Balefiring, it's the only way.
On your point of telling the same thing all over again. Feels like a rehash of the Stepin storyline. They could have done more for season 1 by removing that storyline completely (the better part of 2 episodes) if we were going to have the same drama for Lan/Moiraine
Thanks for doing these videos. I totally agree with your assessment. I also wanted the show to be great. I still follow all the news on what's coming for season 3, but I'm so down about everything that's happened and happening. Brandon Sanderson has been coming out in the last few months with comments on the poor storytelling. No setup or payoff. So your points are spot on.
At this point I think they're just merging Liandrin's and Elaida's storylines and putting them on Liandrin's shoulders. But that's just a theory. Oh also, I think the THING that happens to Moiraine that Alanna is talking about is hearing that foretelling only she and Siuan hear in the books, cause for Moiraine that's a moment that changes all moments after it, right? At least that was my interpretation of that.
That’s been my working theory too but apparently Rafe said at Jordan Con that Eladia will be in the series. Either way I don’t mind the changes to liandrin because at least they are compelling
@@fine_nib_witch I hope they don't. What about hunting for the black a'dam. At that point, there's been a 'tiff in the Tower' and whoever is hunting can't be getting any promotions in the home office, if you get my meaning. This was also the reason merging Elaida was not a good idea. Or do we have a candidate to lead the 13 black sisters?
As far as I can tell nothing about the show is working for non book readers. I’ve talked several people who didn’t read the books into watching the show and none of them have any idea what’s going on. Nothing about the characters the story as a whole the current plot. No one knows what the horn is or why they care.
I still remember that people were trying to sell wasting a whole episode on the warder who's aes sedai died as there to set up Moiraine and Lan's future events. How'd that work out?
That's the problem when you deviate from the source material, you may find it difficult to get back to the road you started from. I expect that the writers understand that they have gone far afield from Jordan's writings. Because of this, their fidelity to the source material becomes even more broken. Every episode has less scenes that happen in the books.
As a show-only person, I've really enjoyed this season overall. But listening to you, I can see how so many changes would make book readers upset, even if it seems great to me. Just as an aside, I find it interesting to hear your opinions on what show-only viewers like myself might feel about the characters. I definitely don't enjoy Nyneave as much as you, as she just feels very one-note & gives off a very unlikable attitude. Maybe that's how she is in the books, but for me, she's not easy to root for. If I had to rank characters stories who I'm most interested in, it'd go: *1. Rand* - even though he doesn't get a lot of screen time, I'm dying to know more about male channelers, especially a potential one that can control his power *2. Liandrin* - not because she's likeable or relatable, but she seems to have her hooks into so many schemes, possibly even working with Ishamael? *3. Ishamael* - to this point, he's the big bad & another male channeler who hasn't gone mad, plus mysteriousness goes a long way *4. Egwene & Elayne* - love them both, and at this point, their story seems pretty connected. Egwene's sincerity, dedication & hard work, paired with Elayne's status & kindness, just makes even simple conversations between them enjoyable *5. Lan* - his story this season has been kind of underwhelming, but the character they established in S1 still makes him someone I care about & root for *6. Nyneave* - Edit: Forgot to include her originally! The tower stuff is interesting, but she seemingly has changed the least from introduction to now. So far, she's basically what Egwene said... someone who has all this power & doesn't care to put in the work, while also having a hostile attitude towards basically everyone around her. Also, she always looks upset, angry, or confused. She's setup as this person that just lucks into all this power & being a chosen-one/prodigy, but is only a good person to a handful of close friends. I struggle to enjoy her character, but am interested in the story. *7. Logain* - I kept hearing book readers say Logain was one of their favorite characters, and throughout S1 I couldn't understand why, especially when it seemed like his relevance was cut short. But even though he lost his ability to channel, a pairing with Rand & helping him control his abilities is definitely something I want to see. *8. Perrin* - I was honestly more interested in his story when he was with the other crew tracking down Padin Fain, but I'm still curious as to where he goes from here. The reveal that he was a "wolfbrother" wasn't that interesting, since it's something the audience has figured out for a long time now . *Big Drop Off* . *9. Moiraine* - I'm sure this will move up now that she's back with Rand, but this low ranking is purely based on her likeability hit that has taken a complete nosedive this season. She reminds me of one of those characters from poorly written shows that rely on their conflicts only happening because nobody talks to each other, keeps unnecessary secrets, and acts in impractical ways that directly lead to obvious issues... Ones that wouldn't occur if this were a normal person making real choices. Even if I don't have the full picture yet, being a complete d**k to any & everyone, combined with the writers deciding to take her channeling abilities away, makes her stuff not very enjoyable. *10. Mat & Min* - It makes me sad to say, because I know how much you like him in the books & dislike the choices made in the show, but even without book knowledge I agree that the changes aren't working. It was a little interesting to see he was being held captaive by Liandrin, but that ended up making me more curious about her & her scheming rather than him. Being cowardly, abandoning his friends, avoiding even talking to Egwene, and just opting to run away with a stranger... yeah, not a guy I'm too fond of yet. And Min, I don't know enough about, and currently just don't find interesting. So there's my overly long, way too detailed novel of a comment! But if your videos weren't so good, I wouldn't have been compelled enough to write this, so I blame you for being good at your craft!😂
btw. great post from a non book reader. interesting to see your perspective. things i want to point out why this show is such a miss 1) you mention Rand as your favorite. that is awesome. I dont get the feeling that a lot of non book readers feel the same so far due to the fact that he is almost an afterthought in the show. but what is so bizarre about that is that Rand is not only the main character of the books. he is alone on his tier. and the next tier of importance is like 10 lvls down. that is how central he is to everything. Which again is why how the show is treating him thus far makes very little sense for a season and a half of barely seeing him. 2) Perrin + Mat as 8 - 10. again subpar development of 2 of the most important characters in the wheel of time books that are in that next tier below Rand i was talking about. along with Nyaneve + Egwene + Moiraine + Lan. basically the OG 7. they are massacring these 2 characters 3) Moiraine is nothing like the books. current season Moiraine is awful, specifically in how she interacts with Lan. not at all her. Think of those grandparetns you have, full of wisdom that sometimes have light hearted gripes at each other but you can see their bond is eternal and really made of stone. this is not that. 4) Logain is nothing like the books cuz Logain in the books only really starts showing up with any amount of importance like halfway through the series. so all the Logain stuff youve seen so far is show only. although im enjoying it. 5) Lan is so lame. He is the Kind of a lost kingdom. the greatest swordsman in the world. Yet Moiraine has now killed a fade + forsaken. he got his butt kicked against 2 fades and cries a lot. ya he sucks so far. Season 1 Lan was decent. Season 2 Lan is atrocious so far. 6) LIandrin. although like everyone else i think the actress is doing a superb job. its actually starting to irritate me that they are giving so much screen time to her no matter how good she is which = no screen time for the actually important characters of the series. So its like a love hate thing right now when she is on screen. That being said. dont let any book readers opinions color yours. you have the gift of watching this without knowing there is a far superior version yet. So do so. Once its done though (not before) i highly suggest reading the books although its an undertaking at 14 books. but it is one of the greatest stories ever told so worth the work.
@tarekt8427 Thanks for the response! I agree about Rand not getting enough screen time, but he still managed to leave a strong impression whenever he is. I think a lot of that is that like Egweyne, he's a genuine good person, a bit naive, but wants to do right by everyone. Couple that with being the dragon reborn (something S1 set up as a huge deal) & us getting to learn about a male channeler, he becomes super interesting. He also gets the most interaction/story setup based directly around the big villains, who are always fascinating to learn about. About Mat, I'm really bummed to hear about how great he was in the books. I could tell listening to this channel that he's really important, but the show has not done him justice. By S2 e4, I feel the show is at its most boring with his parts. It's so weird to hear about book Liandrin, though I'm sure it's even weirder for book readers to see this version of her. I don't even know if I like the character, but she is just tied to so many things at this point. Is she working with the dark friends? What's her plan with Mat & Min? What's she planning with Nyneave? Why did she tell her about the events in the West? What is she trying to achieve at the tower, and why does she hate men so much? There's plenty more, but they really positioned her to be a major player somehow. And yes, I *REALLY* want to read the books, but I know if I do, the show might stop being fun for me.
@@corey2232 i was saying you should read them once the entire series is over. i feel like if you do it before finishing the series ti will most likely diminish your enjyment. but doing it after will only enhance it, taking what you love from the series and making it even greater. :) good discussion overall.
I think Moiraine's story will come around by end of season. She is a victim of a horrible assault, she hasn't talked about it with someone like Lan /w Alanna/Warders, she comes from a political dynasty/White Tower politics that is paranoid and dangerous, She has been given a mission of incredible importance but must carry it herself, she cannot be like Liandrin with her secret or Alanna with her warders and big family because of her mission. She is cold to her sister because that is another way Aes Sedai handle their aging, a way to not be hurt is to drive people away from you. You can see the emotion of the homecoming on her face, she been 20 years in the Wilderness, her search was fruitful which means the world is ending and she is one of the few that know that. Now She is completely alone, trying to help Rand but she needs help too.
Wonderful way to see her character Once we see what her vision showed her, things will make sense going back and rewatching things For all we know, she was shown that the more people around her the more lives would be lost This is the great thing about being able to stream things nowadays as back in the old TV days, you either had to take it on VHS to rewatch it wait til the episode came back on TV again
Ok five minutes in and will write more of my thoughts later but...in regards to the Moiraine/Lanfear stuff, I don't think this is a replacement for book 5 scene. Honestly I feel that they're building up Lanfear (she really is almost sympathetic so far!) and want to give her motivation to hate Moiraine going forward...*hopefully* leading up to a showdown between the two of them similar to book 5. Maybe at end of Season 3? They clearly have lots of plans for Lanfear going forward so I anticipate we'll get lots of Ishy/Lanfear interactions as the two main Forsaken on the scene thus far. One more note before I continue watching. Very intrigued by how sympathetic they're making the villains so far...feel more interested in Lanfear, Liandrin and Ishy than I do in Rand or Mat at moment!!
I def misspoke there, I think Lanfear and Moiraine will for SURE show down again, but I'm wondering if cutting Moiraine off from the source is their way of avoiding what actually happens to her character in book 5 - by taking away power, they don't have to...take away her character, if you know what I mean.
yup that makes sense. I have to say though, I'm still going to miss that scene at the docks. One of the all-time great scenes...so cinematic in my mind@@Bookborn
I do have to add, that it's really nice knowing that, just like killing off main characters and having them alive and well again, we can now kill off Forsaken and they'll just come back to life. Cool. Zero stakes for anyone in this show.
I appreciate your reviews every time. This was my least enjoyed episode of this season so far. I'm hoping they can pull it together for the last half. At least Aviendha is introduced in the next episode 😊
I’m with you on just being confused about the overall direction of the show. Liandrin and Nynaeve have been a highlight so far this season, but their whole interesting dynamic is now done with since Liandrin attacked her-I would’ve much preferred this version of Liandrin to not be a dark friend but to be more like just Elaida or for it to remain unclear longer. I’m with you on being in the show’s corner and wanting to love it but also just being bored most of the time 🤷♂️
YES about Liandrin. Almost wish they had a random red betray them so it would be tension on Liandrin but then it wouldn’t be so black and white. I’m interested to see what happens because they have done a lot of set up for liandrin so maybe they aren’t planning on throwing it all away
@@Bookborn yeah let’s hope there’s some interesting payoff for the deep characterization work they’ve done with Liandrin so far (and the excellent acting).
last scene with Liandrin reminds me a tale: Two hunters met a bear in the forest. The bear rushed towards them and the first hunter shouted - let's run! They ran for a long time, the second hunter began to get tired, but the bear did not lag behind. The second hunter suddenly remembered that he had a gun! - Why am I running?! Turns around and shoots the bear twice and kills it. The first hunter comes up and says: - You’re a fool, we’ve almost reached the house, and now we’ll have to drag it!
As a non book reader, ep4 was the best of the season so far for me. Felt like an actually compelling episode of tv for the most part, with enough momentum and intrigue in the various plots to keep interesting. I also think the sets and costume designs were great. The look of the town Moraine visted, the interiors, and her blue dress all looked fantastic.
Big feel you on the aimless storytelling. I can't help but feel like there's nothing that exciting. They have dragged out the wolf thing so long it just feels overdue. Matt doesn't have anything to do (to the point his character literally doesn't know where to go). Rand literally is hiding and had a half hearted talk with Logain then gave up. It's like if in Empire Strikes Back they just started the movie with Luke in Dagobah and everyone else floating in space, and gave us no information about where they were going or why
I will say this about The Wheel of Time TV show. It is not The Wheel of Time. I have no idea where this story came from but it wasn't from anything Robert Jordan ever wrote. Not to imply that it is a bad story, it is just not The Wheel of Time.
thanks for these videos, it's been so long since I've read the first few books, and while watching the show I keep thinking "wait I don't think it was like that in the books...but how do we even know what's going on here if we haven't read the books? who is this even for?" I want so badly to like this adaptation, since it's been trying to get made since basically the 90s - and tbh I think that's part of the problem - but you're spot-on with the inefficient storytelling critique, it's so messy.
I'm having a different experience. I am a book reader and have enjoyed season 2 so far. My husband did not read the books and is also having a great time watching. It doesn't feel boring to me. It's not perfect, but no tv show is. I trust that we will see character growth and plot points converge. I don't find Moiraine rude. For me, it comes across as pain and frustration.
Preface: I have never read the books, but I'm a big fantasy reader I found season 1 to be genuinely bad TV. So far, season 2 is much better, with my favorite episode being episode 3. However, you're right that the tower plotline is basically carrying the show on its back. Moraine does seem very unlikeable, not only to Lan but also her sister?? Perrin's story still lacks a lot of momentum and I feel like I should know who the Shienarans are...but I have no clue as they weren't introduced, so I feel like I'm missing out... Rand's storyline I'm okay but I wish we were spending more time with him. Mat this season is still charismatic but he hasn't been given anything to do...I almost feel they could have cut all his scenes and just do the big reveal of him being with Liandrin and being let go all in one scene later on (to make more space for Rand Perrin??) IDK Overall I'd say I'm at a 6 out of 10, purely based on some good emotional punches with Nynaeve
Perrin and the Shienarans... The Shienarans are the group he was running with, until S2E3... including the short guy with the eye patch. Some of them were with him in S1E8, digging up that horn from under the throne.
Yeah not going to lie I found myself a little pissed by your title. I was like "there's nothing in this show that is in the books" then the first thing you said was just that lol.
I think I get what you're saying about the show overall...it feels like a bad relationship, where on paper everything looks like it should be great, but in practice, you just never feel the pull that you want to for it.
I love the books, love the length and even Jordan’s long-winded-at-times sections. That being said, the problem the show has as a stand-alone feature (I agree that at this point it should be viewed as an independent story instead of an adaptation) is that it spends too much time on things that don’t matter in the end, and too little on what does. They spend more time telling you about warders, showing sex scenes with warders, showing bonding amongst warders, etc… and so very little time explaining things like how the power works, who the forsaken are, the politics of the white tower, etc. Watching the show I know more about the warder’s personal relationships than I do about what a ta’veren is. I watch it with people who never read the books, and when I give them LITERALLY 20 seconds of a quick “this is what this is” they say “why didn’t they just put that 20 seconds in the show??” My reply: “But then they would have had to cut out naked warders in threesomes.”
"My reply: “But then they would have had to cut out naked warders in threesomes.” Rafe Judkin's sexuality might have something to do with that. 😉 ( _actually_ , look it up)
I think your point about repeating the same story beats is the reason why the show isn't living up to its potential. We get several scenes showing different variations of the same idea, Nynaeve is traumatized by her accepted test, Lan is sad that Moiraine left him, Rand is shacking up with Selene. They have the same kind of conversation each time, throwing lore exposition in almost as an afterthought. Like, we're shown liandrin has a 90yo son to show that aes Sedai age different, then we get a far more interesting scene with Moiraine and her sister exploring the same idea. There were good scenes, I loved Moiraine and her sister sitting over tea, I thought Mins dream sequence really nailed the ethereal vibe of the world of dreams, I love Elaynes scenes and liked Liandrins betrayal. It's just confusing, seline came across so sweet in every scene until bam, she's bad (let's forget about the "poem"). Liandrin came across as menacing but not evil, and now she's bad too. Some of the best TV tells you exactly what the motivations are for both sides of the conflict, then sets them on a collision course for each other. We're excited to see how it'll play out. WoT keeps everything a mystery and tries to go for a retrospective "aha!" moment that I'm not really loving.
As someone who hasn’t read the books, at this point in the show I’m struggling because I don’t really like basically any of the characters apart from Nynaeve. I particularly am finding Rand very irritating currently I’m just not feeling particularly invested in what I assume is supposed to be the main story line. I agree with what you were saying about the reveal in this episode, it feels like they were just wanting to use the whole storyline to cram in some more “adult” scenes but then forgot to actually build anything up. Also even as someone who has not read the books I can often tell when they’re changing stuff which is not really what you want…
7:25 yeah, I think you’re on to something about “good tv”. I think there’s been a change in expectations and interest in viewing mediums, but especially adaptations. A lot of strong IPs are getting lackluster responses/reviews. Even tried and true properties like Mission Impossible and Indiana Jones did poorly. My guess is that production companies have become complacent and formulaic in their writing, which makes the show seem boring. I think the Wheel of Time is suffering from this as well. And in an attempt to hit these formulas, they’ve departed from book content to the extent that they are disenfranchising book fans.
They definitely play favorites when it comes to character development. And i think one of the biggest mistakes was not developing relationships between most of these characters. No Lan and Rand bonding? No Thom and Mat? Barely getting to Perrin and the wolves, Lan and Moraine acting like turds to each other. The only good relationship is Nynaeves and Egwenes. It feels so far removed that i wonder how they could possibly fix it.
I love the story. My main issue with the show is all the warder bonding moments we are getting, something that wasn't in the books, at least at this length. Having 2 full scenes of Lan in episode 4 explaining his feelings about moraine seems like the biggest waste of screen time.
Before watching, I just want to say this. My thoughts: My big problem is the story/motivations... like, Rand hasn't spent enough time with Moraine to intrinsicly trust her when she bursts in and 'kills' his girlfriend. I'm not buying it. I thought the Perrin/Hopper scene was amazing though... I think I may have a bias because I have a great dog. :) The girls were meh, Perrin was fucking awesome, Rand was not good, Morain+Lan were not good, Mat+Min were ? Ok. Time to watch :)
Rand has spent much time with Moraine going from the Two Rivers, being separated in SG, meeting up in Tar Valon to traveling to the Eye where she went against her Warder and others to carry out his wish to allow them to think him dead She didn't demand that since she was older that he listen to her...she has been there as an Alfred to his Bruce Even shielded, she still wants him to be ready for his battle to come with nothing more than a dagger on her person pushing forward to do her best
Yeah, I agree, and meant to talk about something and forgot - I think splitting up all the characters as they have has done the show a disservice, because they can't drive character dev together but it has to be done separately. As runtime goes, that's less efficient because they have to keep cutting back and forth. Moiraine and Rand DID get some nice time together at the end of season 1, so I think the foundation could be there, but I think because they have developed Rand so little in this season, it almost feels like a reset.
@@Bookborn I see your point. They DID spend a lot of time together. But also like you said, everyone is separate. I feel like it would've been more believable if the characters spent more time with each other. And not sure if you said it, but the way Lanfear come back very well could be the Dark One's power to retain spirits, but now retains bodies too.
I have finished the book series and is a fan of WOT. I was actually excited to watch my fave characters come to life on TV. I will always choose books over TV or movie versions. This series though confused the heck out of me. It was like I was watching a different book series come alive. As a fan, I kinda feel a disconnect, to the point that I asked myself do I really remember the book differently? 🤔 Thank you for the book vs TV guide, now I know I'm not crazy.😅
I think the thing that happened to Moiraine 20 years ago was hearing the prophecy that the dragon had been reborn. Alanna didnt talk about it like she knew what happened, only that something happened to make Moiraine change.
I agree with you that there does seem to be too much filler rather than moving the plot along or developing characters. There's so much good source material, it does get annoying. They should pay you to consult - then we'd have a better show!
Appreciate you sharing your prospectives of the show v. the books. Moraine is one of my favorite characters in the books. I agree with One Piece, I’ve never watched the anime and really like the live action.
I watched episode 1 said no...I don't think I want to see the rest. now I just watch all the great youtube content, like yours, to confirm that I'm sadly not missing anything special. I've actually wanted to reread book 2 even though it wasn't my favorite and I stalled in the series after book 5 because the show wasn't supposed to go passed that....sooo guess its time to continue the book journey with how the show is feeling to me.
Some good things and some really bad things. Liked the White Tower events, again, they're really nailing that. Happy to see Hopper and have Perrin getting more exposure as a wolfbrother. Really annoyed with how Lan is being handled and how much references we have to hear about Alanna sleeping with her warders. Really annoyed with the lack of screentime for my boy Mat. The Rand v Selene interaction was going really well until she suddenly started channeling and revealing she was a Forsaken. Would have been much better to let the viewer know, through the prophecy and the scene with Ishy, but leave Rand in the dark (hehe) for a bit longer. The ending was terrible. Really, how often are we going to see characters appear behind someone else out of fricking nowhere and "killing" them. The doors were closed when Rand and Selene were inside, Moiraine had to open them and when they left in the end, they were closed again. So not only did Moiraine, silently, open those heavy wooden doors, she also closed them, silently. Then she snuck across the room in her heavy dress, silently, and she drew Rand's sword, silently. Terrible B-action movie material. This ain't even a book scene. They completely fabricated this out of thin air, to again show how "badass" Moiraine is and cucking Rand again. When are they finally gonna start showing some badass Rand moments.
The Black Ajah hunt is in book 3. Liandrin approaches Egwene and Nynaeve in Book 2 because the Shadow wants to separate them from Rand, Min and Elayne tagging along was unintentional.
@@Bookborn Yes, but Siuan doesn't task them with hunting the Black Ajah until the next book, after Liandrin returns to the Tower and then leads 12 of others to steal a bunch of ter'angreal and leave the Tower.
The Shadow didn't want to separate Egwene and Nynaeve. It was Baalzemon who purposely ordered Egwene and Nynaeve to be lured to Falme, so Rand could see them get captured.
@@thomasc9036 No, Egwene and Nynaeve were meant to be brought across the ocean. Nynaeve not being captures likely delayed their departure enough to allow Rand and co to show up, but Rand being there to see them captured was never the plan and there's no indication to that effect.
@@johanjarvinen Egwene and Nynaeve were held in captivity for a few months before Rand's party arrived. The point of capture was to sow discord between the Dragon and Seachan and to make Rand despair. Seanchan could have taken them or Ishamael could have just taken both to Seanchan continent anytime after the capture but that never happened. Think of why either option never happened.
In my opinion, this season is a huge step up from S1 and *almost* everything is working for me. But the Moirane/Lan stuff is genuinely incredibly frustrating. It feels so fake and and I feel like one scene between Lan and those other warders could have replaced all of the ones we've gotten so far.
Rafe seems to have a weird fixation on the Warder Aes Sedai Bond. never though i would hear those terms this much in a season and a half. I would make a more lewd comment about this weird fixation but ill hold off.
Spoilers!! ----- Do you think the show runners are setting up Nynaeve to demonstrate her ground breaking healing on Moiraine as apposed to the interactions she has in the books? (trying to be as vague as possible to avoid spoilers)
Very possible, although Nynaeve feels so far from that right now that it seems they’d have moiraine without power for much longer than I think the narrative can survive 😬 if that was their plan, I really don’t know why they didn’t have it happen to moiraine at the end of season 2. Taking her power in season 1 was too early imo
@@Bookborn I agree, not sure why so many large departures from the books. The books are so Rand centric but instead the show is making this a Moiraine story. S2 is definitely a step up from S1 though
I feel like you can blame a lot of Moraines rudeness on being blocked from the one power rn. But then in season one it wasn’t really rudeness, she was just secretive mostly
Taking my cues from a Wheel of Time Video you Guest Starred in, it no longer feels ironic to call Lan a ‘Simp’. He’s gone from Simp Prime to Forever Simp with a terribly noticeable character development limp. On a more genuine note though, I consistently felt strong resonance in your analysis, with one big exception… It has been no small surprise for me to actually find myself more hopeful after this Episode. I had been desperate to get some proper evocation of Robert Jordan’s creation. There really hasn’t been much at all through the 11 Total previous Episodes. And finally, with Perrin, I got exactly what I had been desperate for. It’s not a recitation from the books, but it does distill the essence of Wolfbrother, in my eyes. And the focus on Age using Liandrin’s final recruitment speech to get Nynaeve to commit to her, as the anchor, while bookending it with the Show & Tell of the Sisters Damodred was a very intelligently inserted evocation of the books. Not to mention the effective magnification, instead of how Agelessness is depicted in the books, as a defining conceit of the plot, without much sustained associated storytelling that has any real emotional impact. Beyond the Seaine/Pevara, we don’t really get much insight into the impact on the natural family of Aes Sedai at all. I’ve watched the Episode Twice already… and the second time still flew. It probably helped that I was able to tune out the Lan scenes after that first viewing. Loved Ishamael owning the room in Min’s dream and just made me feel exasperated at what we missed with the Season 1 butchering of that Dream Dynamic with the 3 Ta’veren, all in service to that heinous ‘Who is The Dragon?’ booby prize. Speaking of Ishamael, hated, no, absolutely loathed that opening scene. Mostly I can divorce myself from book hopes and expectations and judge a scene on its own merits, but INCANTATIONS?!! Spellcasting? Really? The Wheel of Time is many things to many people, but I didn’t expect it to be Harry Potter and the Cursed Darkfriends that I crossed out on my Bingo Card. Although the Episode quickly redeems itself, that was most horrid a beginning. Another thing you noted that resonated strongly was the Rudeness. I’ve whined and moaned and bitched about inserting Contemporary Paradigms into Imagined Worlds for the sake of Modelling Progress for viewers. This emerging trope of supposedly strong, unapologetic Women emerging in media feels a bit like a grandfather clock pendulum that has swung so hard at getting to that point, that it has punched right through any limiting cabinet of logic, into some misidentified nirvana of ‘strong women’ and stayed there, deaf to nuance and proper characterisation. A faithful rendition of Moiraine’s character in the books would certainly not have seen her suffer in comparison, in terms of strength and integrity. And Rosamund Pike is certainly capable of capturing those nuances in her performance, if she is given the chance to. Unfortunately, so far, not so for her. I’ve been accused of being in the minority with my strongly negative views until now, so I savour the irony of seemingly (I can’t assert that my investigations have been exhaustive) being in the minority again, but on the other side of the ledger. While there were things I hated about this Episode, it is clearly for me the one where my hopes to see the Wheel of Time books strongly evoked and properly adapted, were raised the highest. Curiouser and curiouser. Anyway, a massive THANK YOU for your efforts… and actually being a much needed conduit to clear thinking about what the Wheel of Time adaptation really means, to readers and non readers alike. PS - you got a bit confused early on there, conflating the girls’ departure from the Tower in The Great Hunt, then The Dragon Reborn. In The Great Hunt, Siuan was not involved at all. It was all Liandrin giving Egwene & Nynaeve reason to believe Rand was in danger and that he needed their help. Elayne overheard from her adjacent room and insisted she come along… from memory, I think that was the whole setup initially. I don’t remember them even mentioning a destination because they used The Ways and Suroth & Co were waiting on the other side.
I appreciate your honest reviews. I also wished so hard to enjoy this show, but I just can't. If they had called it something else and said it was inspired by WOT, and used different people in the same world, then I could probably enjoy it for what it is. But because they call it the WOT, I expect to actually see the WOT story, and i can't reconcile that with this show.
The "blood calls blood" poem announcing Lanfear's arrival is lifted straight from the books, isn't it? (I mean, the moon dial and all that isn't in the books, but the text is, yeah?)
![Дон ДОН, Алаудинов и СБЕЖАВШИЕ из под Курска ахматовцы 😁 [Пародия]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dEfCf5IK26Q/mqdefault.jpg)
I haven't finished the video yet, but "mistaking rudeness for strength" seems to be a common flaw in Amazon fantasy productions. Galadriel was very similar to me in ROP. :/
Not just Amazon Prime tbh, a lot of shows/movies
100% on the analogy and comparison. Makes them so unlikable.
It's part of... a certain narrative, that women don't exist to please... usually speaking about men.
IME, this is something only women, usually a specific subset, say.
"Mistaking rudeness for strength" is mostly applied to female chars. You don't see this among male chars.
@@Bookborn yes... don't know why they do this. Even if you want to make them "manly", most strong male characters are not rude, they are infact very humble like Bruce Willis in die hard or keanu reeves in John wick. That's what increases there badassery
Best book scenes not showing up are crazy, sick mat with a quarterstaff winning that fight in the tower was iconic
its ok. it was replaced with Nynaeve being a bad ass swordswoman cuz basically this is the Wheel of Nynaeve and Moiraine. everyone else is a backdrop pretty much, especially the 3 boys.
They can't really have Mat do any of the tower stuff because he wasn't "supposed" to be there. As much as I love that moment, I can understand why they didn't do it. What I am confused about, though, is if the dagger storyline is removed, why haven't we just moved on to the stuff in book 3 and start his luck stuff way earlier? That's the interesting bit anyway.
I was looking forward to that scene when he was let out of his cell. I understand why they didn't do it, though. They would have to introduce Elayne's two brothers and set Mat up in the tower for a bit. We can only hope we get a different version of it later on. It was a great moment.
I was super upset by this too. but then they showed that his luck hasn't kicked in yet, soooo... maybe we can hold out hope that they will do it later?
Show Matt knowing how to use a staff now, or shoot a bow seems a little out of character.
They did the thing in the extra’s, I’m counting on nothing else. Be awesome but not counting on it.
"Rudeness for strength" - perfect commentary on how Hollywood created the strong female archetype.
Just imagine if Robert Jordan had Nynaeve's block be rudeness instead of anger/fear. She would never channel, because that would paint the character into the corner, and RJ would own it ... unlike these brainchild showrunners.
Every time I force myself to think "It's ok, this is a different turning of the wheel" I can't help but wish they had picked a better turning of it to film...
I cant even go with that since they made choices earlier that changed how the world / magic works. So they have changed RJ's world, different turning or not. I pretty much only watch channels that are "critical" of the show anymore. Not going to watch it on amazon and not watching the fanboi channels that feel this show can do no wrong.
@@DB-zp9unSo you aren’t going to watch Daniel Greene
Once again, Mat is almost entirely ignored this episode, and the one scene of him we do get is him failing at dice.
I think after the mess of season 1 they just literally don't know what to do with him
@@Bookborn At this point, I feel like they just don’t like Mat at all. They could have given him his TDR plot line since he started the season in the Tower, but instead we get this weird plot line of him getting pushed around by Liandrin and Min.
Exactly…how are they even going to implement his power now?
@@PrinceofRavens64it feels like spite towards Mat’s character at this point. He’s in the Tower, so they had the perfect setup to have him being cheeky with the Amyrlin, showing his quarterstaff skills against Galad and Gawyn, and demonstrating his famous loyalty to his friends by escaping the Tower with his luck, on his own (rather than being duped), to save the girls in Falme.
Instead, he’s still a sad, useless extra who is just manipulated and led around by other characters. He makes no real decisions and accomplishes nothing. He has no agency and any scene he’s in is just boring filler (very much like Lan). Why is he even in the show?
@@ThumbMerrilin I feel like he’s only in the show because he’s a fan favorite from the books, so they don’t have the cajones to kill him off.
I think the problem with the story telling in the show is, well, their not really telling a story, they're simply dropping story beats every so often with a bunch of non-story driving filler in between, and filler that's drawn out _way_ too long!
The main problem, I think, with the Rand and Selene relationship is they decided to omit how they met and the "why" of why Rand fell for her. This gives the relationship zero substance...they're just banging. So yeah, him apparently admitting love comes way out of left field. Plus, unfortunately, one of Lanfear's driving forces for her character is Rand _not_ falling for her, which she wants desperately so they can rule the world together. But even that would mean little in context of the show, because Lanfear's character hasn't been established at all.
This show thinks suspense can only be obtained through a mystery box and by omitting info from the viewer. Had we been introduced to Lanfear early, maybe as Ishamael freed her and they had a conversation about her love for Lews Therin and how he's been reborn to this world, then later we saw her wooing Rand, I feel there would've been much greater suspense knowing she was evil from the start and his inherent blindness to the fact. That's my two cents.
I'll actually be surprised if they do establish her character at all. Instead, I think they'll just believe her name is enough. Too often this show seems written with prior book knowledge needed in order to clue in to it, even though they want this show to be for non book readers. It often relies on the viewer to pause and see the X-Ray info in order to get any low down on any character. For example, in the first three episodes, even though Ingtar seems to be leading Perrin's expedition, but in the show they haven't dropped his name once. Except for when we met him in S01, briefly and with nothing that would make a viewer remember him, other than that he died. Without subtitles or the X-Ray info, I don't think most viewers would even know who this is.
I think Lanfear being let loose at the end of S1 would've been the perfect cliff hanger, specially if you open S2 with Ishy and her having a convo like you mention. Then in the next scene you have the mysterious woman show up at Rand and try to seduce him while he's just trying to get away from everyone. The audience would've gotten to the right place without needing to change much else.
I totally agree on how you say that the show is weirdly relying on book-readers knowledge while also not attempting to honor the book plot itself, which puts it in a super strange spot. And totally agree about showing us a flashback at least to when Rand and Selene met - it would be cool to make the viewers start to really like her before the reveal!
@@Bookborn Well, it's too late now, isn't it? And please check my criticism of the editing of her actions and history as it is. There is a major error they made which was super simple to avoid, even if only by placing the blood woman scene in one of the three earlier episodes. Don't tell what's happening (a Tom Clancy move, actually), just drop it in basically wherever. Putting it in where it absolutely doesn't belong would actually have been best but to put it in the middle of this episode mangles the whole thought process.
@@Bookbornthis was my exact thoughts on the rings of power. Tons of characters from the simarillion that a non reading audience wouldn't know our care about and who aren't explained properly. And for the ones that have read the simarillion those same characters are so far removed from how they are depicted in the books. It's a great way to simultaneously alienate casual viewers with complexity and hardcore fans with unfaithful portrayals. I'd say the wheel of time is only slightly guilty of the same thing, for the most part I'm enjoying it. My biggest problem is the use or lack thereof of the one power.
This is my first time watching your videos and have to say I really appreciate the refreshing measured criticism as opposed to some channels who seem hell bent on seeing the show fail and review it accordingly.
What I find weird is that they tried to get the Selene seduction plotline but didn't keep the context around it at all. She wouldn't just be having sex with him all the time. She would simply entice him with the idea of it. Also, Lanfear, if it was true to her character, would have instead tried to get Rand to take over Cairhien.
Good point with the repetitive nature of some of the scenes. For a show having only 8 episodes a season, they really dont seem able to focus on the important bits.
Yeah it's funny because a lot of us thought they'd have to race through plot points too quickly to get through it all, but instead they seem to be taking their sweet time. I still can't believe we've just had Perrin meet hopper after all that setup!
@@Bookborn and everyone keeps saying how the pacing is so good this season... what?? 🤷♂️
What they've done to Moiraine and Lan this season is unconscionable. Also the editing this episode was all over the place. When we first cut to Lan with the other warders I thought for a bit that we were cutting back to Nynaeve's dream sequence from the arch. And in the scene with Egwene and Nynaeve when she reaches for the ring they very clearly used the same reaction shot twice for Egwene and spliced it in really weirdly.
Hahaha notice the same things…that ring section was a very sloppy edit
Oh man, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was a dream sequence for a bit! Some of the editing is really disorienting
@@Bookborn Considering how it came right after Nynaeve was talking about the trial, the tonal shift compared to how we've seen Lan thus far, and his outfit/hair being so close to what they were in the dream sequence, it's pretty easy to mix it up
This series meant so much to me when I finished the last book and after Season 1, I was really bummed out. I was telling myself I would give Season 2 a try but I just can't do it. Like you said, not in a "I hate this" type of way...I just am not enjoying the choices they have made. I have been enjoying your series of comparisons though so thank you for that. This has got to be the most honest review of the show out there.
I do think season 2 is an improvement, but unfortunately it feels too little too late. I'm sorry to hear you're feeling the same way as me!
@@Bookborn I get there's like a lot of changes to it but we have to remember they can't make 12 seasons/13 so they're trying to compromise even though season one had a lot of botched information that was important
@@kyneilennobody is against cutting stuff. Everyone realises the practicalities involved. The issue however is that it is putting in all kinds of filler and fanfiction and wasting a bunch of runtime instead of adapting the important stuff or staying true to the characters even in spirit.
@@kyneilenThe complaints are not about cut material. They are completely sabotaging the male characters.
Completely agree with you. My issue with the show at this point, and especially after last night's episode, is that it's honestly just more boring than it is "bad." I felt exactly what you described of just sitting there watching and it just not doing anything for me.
Yeah like I don't feel strongly enough to hate anything lmao just am like "we are still with Lan and the Warders? When will something happen?" And so then when something does happen, it's very exciting, but it always feels like a short burst and never sustained.
So much praise for this episode online, I honestly feel like I'm missing something. It was soooo slow and exposition heavy. Hopefully, now that Rand is with Moraine we can actually get some character development for him because this sad I need a friend Rand is getting dull. That said...Hoper joining the cast is amazing, Lanfear actress is great, Ishmaeil continues to intrigue and I think they've made a good choice with the wolf language, that was always going to be hard to bring to screen without being like a cheesey wolf voice over.
I was confused also,for me this was on par with GOT Season 8 Episode 6.I want to understand what was good.There was so much coincidence in things happening,like for example Moiraine just comes and kills Selene and tells Rand "She is Lanfear,lets run" and he just accepts it and comes with her?
Totally agree that Rand has gotten so dull and I just really hope that now he's with moiraine we will get some development! I really loved Moiraine/Rand's contentious or rather push/pull relationship in the books and would like to see it here.
Slow.
I say it was incredibly fast but also slow at the same time.
The constant cuts while giving absolutely zero substance.
I mean, they set this ridiculous precedent in episode 1 season 1 when Moraine just rocks up and takes all the kids with her, no questions asked. @@kristiandonchev2641
Agree!@@Bookborn
I completely agree with everything you said. I found your channel last season after watching the second episode. I needed to understand the story more because watching the show left me a lil lost.I have enjoyed your videos each week because you provide clarity that the show isn’t giving. Because of your videos, I have decided to read the books. Idk how long this show will last.
I will be so sad if we don't get the Moiraine moment from book 5, it's my favorite scene in the entire series. I heard a theory that the end of this episode replaces a Moiraine scene from book 3 with a different forsaken, so hopefully that one is correct.
The Lan scenes from this episode have been the worst part of the whole season for me. This episode for me was by far the weakest of the season until the last 15 minutes. I'm just so ready for the Lan/Moiraine storyline to wrap up.
Oh yeah, I think we will for sure still get another showdown between Lanfear and Moiraine, but I've been suspecting that perhaps cutting off moiraine from the one source is to replace something else that happens at the end of that showdown so they don't get rid of Rosamund Pike...
While Moiraine was a great char, she was not a main char or even one of the main supporting chars. I don't see how the series will make sense by keeping her as the main focus.
@@Bookborn That is a good point, I cant see them having a full season or 2 without her. They've pushed so hard, season one particularly, to make her the main character instead of Rand
@@BookbornDon't discount that they advance Nynaeve's discovery from Salidar to Cairhein on a fine day on the docks.
It explicitly said that she was Morain's younger sister. They have been leaning into the power extending a channeler's lifespan. The pre-Lan event that changed Morain was the foretelling of the Dragon when Rand was born. She met Lan later on her search for the Dragon.
I couldn't agree more than the reveal scene for Lanfear is so lackluster because there is no proper development in that relationship. It isn't this big dramatic moment that they were hoping for but really, it is just so disappointing because it could have been established so much better. It also felt kind of rushed in that the whole episode was like the build up to Lanfear rather than doing that over the course of several episodes.
Def SUPER rushed, even knowing Lanfear I found it a bit confusing that she was "confused/hurt/get away" and then...in the same conversation... "you're perfect!" Like...what? lmao. Also why were they sleeping outside when the house is apparently hers? Can anyone explain that to me 😭
@@Bookborn LOL I wrote the same thing for my notes. House is right there guys
my mom (non book reader) was shocked that Selene was Lanfear, and was like "He loves her? so he's over the other girl!?" (meaning egwaine) So yeah, she cares about this, but the time skipping and stuff didnt seem to hit as well
I'm not a book reader, and the "I love you" felt super weird as well, just the episode before he was saying he wanted to forget Egwene but couldn't
Love your review. Like your friends who message you about Morraine, my friends message me about Lan. Lan is a beast in the book. He doesn’t lose. A few trollocs are warm up for him. Other warders look up to him. Wherever he goes, people reference the sword as a third limb of his. I will say, I’m liking the show because I’m a fan of the world and I’ll always have my books. But why oh why do I have to keep watching Lan walk around with no purpose with two warders no one cares about from the books.
Once again, for me, it's all about contrast. If we saw Lan in season 1 being unbeatable, and then he feels downtrodden in season 2, there would be development, it would be an arc. But because we never get to see him succeed, it's harder to understand where this storyline fits.
@@Bookborn duty is heavier than a mountain, death is lighter than a feather. Not trying to criticize your approach but in season 1 people were against Lan's portrayal with the nipple pinching scene, but this is the season he actually teaches not just swordsmanship but this philosophy to Rand which stays with him till the end
And there's the little detail that he's the only wetlander the Aiel respect. (The Man who is a Nation). And this is a good place to say that I want whoever cast Aviendha is color blind.
Absolutely on point with Moirraine even in season 1 she has never felt like Moirraine. The show fundamentally ignores the fact that to her core Moirraine is a MACHIAVELLIAN she is Blue Ajah for God's sake! She wears her emotions on her sleeves too much and never seems composed as much as she should be. Every scene with her we should be Tring to guess what her ploy is at. The only time in the books we actually see the real Moirraine is in the 'letter' and New spring simply because that's an origin story. The only time this episode I saw book Moirraine is when she was talking with Logaine however you can't have sporadic moments to justify this being Moirraine. If you wanna do this character properly then she needs to be like this 100% of the time
The bond stuff is a bit confusing but it is for sure not severed. Moiraine masked the bond when she left with Rand to go to the EOTW, then she got shielded (not stilled). Ishamael says specifically that she can feel it but not touch it, which is classic shielding. It’s also the same thing Liandrin says to Nynaeve she she shields her early in S2.
When Lan reaches Moiraine he asks her to unmask the bond, but because Moiraine can’t currently touch the source, she can’t unmask the bond. So the bond is still there, but masked.
This mirrors some of the symptoms of a severed bond (no connection of feeling) but notably not the suicidal/super depression caused by a severed bond. Which is why Lan AND Moiraine are doing so well individually with the change. They just don’t connect with each other because the bond cannot be unmasked until Moiraine regains access to the source.
So then in S2E2 Moiraine says she’ll have Lan bonded to Alanna by force, if necessary. But clearly this hasn’t happened, as there’s zero mention of Lan being part of the bond with Alanna and the warders and Alanna asks if Lan will follow them to the tower, which he would have an obligation to do if he were bonded to Alanna. Alanna also suggests Lan should bond Nyneave.
Alanna also confirms the bond was not ripped from them (like it would be with stilling/death), but rather Moiraine “took it.” Which is true, because Moiraine voluntarily masked it.
The show has purposefully obfuscated the exact status of the bond, but every clue points to these foregoing conclusions, in my opinion.
I enjoy the videos, but I'm starting to wonder if it even makes sense anymore to compare the show to the books. They are so far off the rails that it seems somewhat futile. I feel like this show is failing in multiple ways: it's obvious the showrunner and writers don't respect the author and his story and have decided they can tell a better story. So its failing as an adaptation. But then they story that they are trying to tell is bad on its own. If it was different but good, that would be one thing (personally, that's how I view the Witcher). But its different and bad, which is twice the pain.
I think the Bourne movies are actually a perfect example of "different but good". Those movies are INSANELY different from the books, but I enjoy both.
Anyway, I do think the characters and actions are still rooted in the books so I think it's possible to talk about it, but certainly in different terms than season 1 - it's more about broad strokes than specifics for sure.
@@Bookborn that is a great example of an adaptation that is different but good. I'm making the mistake of rereading TGH and TDR. There's so many chapters that I think "that would make a great scene." The sad part is that now we'll never get a true adaptation of tWOT. Rafe has squandered our one chance.
Whether we are comparing the show to the books or remembering what should be happening right now, I’m happy you’re making these videos.
It’s so much better to have a community of people who are feeling just as gaslit. 😳😬😂
Did you catch how many times they drubbed we the viewers over the head with aes sedai age?
3 show dont tells and 1 on expose incase where stupid.
Than also every single plot point is taken based upon a single throwaway lines in the novels.
The perrin wife - book 4
The warders training nynaeve - book 2
Min wanting to lose the images - in passibg to rand once
Mat being a thief - book 1 him stealing honeycakes
Its just all one liners which are not their character
As a book fan I was actully a bit stressed with this seasons release. As an adaptation season 1 was terrible, but I thought they might be able to turn around the writing and make it enjoyable. The characters just seem depressing to me. They took away the joy from the young cast before the story even begain. Part of what pulls Rand back from despair is love for those around him. I don't see that at all.
I really thought that I would make it through this season at least, but it's like you said. It's just not a fun show to watch. I look forward to your reviews and hope the show gets better.
I think making the characters less innocent is reallllyyy coming back to bite them right now, PARTICULARLY with Mat. They made season 1 mat super dark before the dagger, then they removed the dagger so quickly, and now mat feels a little more fun/silly but it makes ZERO sense within context of the show. I know it's a different actor and that's not the shows fault, but the whiplash I've gotten from the differences in characters is large. And same with Selene and Rand...Rand being less innocent means it's harder to tell his character development as the one power changes him.
@@Bookborn
"I know it's a different actor and that's not the shows fault"
You're giving the creators of the show too much benefit of the doubt. It's a director's job to get the _right_ performance out of an actor, and the actor's job to _interpret_ what the director wants. The director and the actor use the screenplay to understand the character.
I really do not understand this insistence that Barney Harris leaving somehow destroyed Mat's story within this show. If the showrunners are _that_ incompetent, perhaps they shouldn't be running the show?
@@manthekingI don't blame Harris for leaving. Once he saw what they were doing to the character, it is no wonder he left.
Love that Moiraine that is about 43 at this time in the story line have a younger sister that is 90 😂 (Moiraine is 42 when she is in two rivers)
lol yes that's what I'm saying, like she's 42 in the books. They did age up all the characters though, so if I'm being generous, 50. However, they also aged up Liandrin a lot. I think this is their way of doing "ageless". Moiraine is apparently around 80/90 but looks in her 40s. Liandrian is apparently much, MUCH older, since her son is so old.
But they think they can do what ever they want and that we that have read/listen to the books 4+ times don't remember the story line. They should have just hierd a bunch of book lovers to write the show and it had most likely been 10 times better for half the cost 😂
Rafe Judkins didn’t read the books.
My expectations were low after season 1, but this show hasn't even met that low bar. I don't understand who they're making it for - They don't explain anything well so non-readers don't understand what's happening or why it's important (partly because they decided to use their precious time to do non-important things), and they make everything different from the books so most readers don't like it.
This show has a really weird online presence, where there is a small group of people endlessly praising the show as if it can do no wrong, drowning out any criticism. You can like the show, that's fine. But no objective person can say that it's amazing or flawless.
I completely agree, the show seems to have a strange cult Twitter following and like all of their handles are characters from the books. I feel like I’m going nuts sometimes when I read the things they say
The show DOES have a really weird online presence; it's either drowning in endless praise or drowning in endless hatred, both sides seem weird when mostly I feel like it's mediocre 💀
seems to be that Amazon is hiring shills to praise the show.
ive started calling those weirdos that are supposed book fans but who defend as every single decision as awesome and talk down to any criticism with the line ITS AN ADAPTATION as showcloacks. they are as bad as the bookcloacks that want everything exactly the same. 2 sides of the same idiot coin.
I dont understand what your problem is with people who are enjoying this show. Not everyone is critical about everything. Some people just want to sit back and watch a show.
Part of the problem is people like you who constantly whine and cry about how bad the show is yet they get up and watch it.
Here is a simple solution. If you dont like it dont watch it. And stop whining about how bad it is in every social media platform available. Eventually when enough of you will stop watching and talking about it, Amazon will drop it for sure. And surely making youtube videos wont help your cause.
One thing that bothered me in this episode was Ishamael releasing Lanfear. That seems out of line with the Forsaken - they are not typically helping each other out. If you look at the interaction between Lanfear and Ishamael in TDR (that Perrin eavesdrops on in the world of dreams), they were not allies. He would not have gone to release her. He would have wanted to have the new world all to himself.
They've made Ishamael the leader of the forsaken, which isn't the case at this point in the story. It makes sense to show him releasing another forsaken. We don't really know how that happens in the books, they're just free in the world. Having that visual for how the forsaken are in the world isn't the worst thing.
So another episode with no book content. I have no doubt that Bookborn makes more sense here than anything in the show, plus has better video quality. What's with making everything so dark unless it's to hide how poor the scenes are.
So we are 4 episodes in (plus 5-6 months of off-screen time) and for our characters:
Rand: Hung a lantern, had sex, killed a civilian, had sex, learned how to do a fetch quest, had sex
Mat: Sat in a cell, lay down in a cell, cried, didn't realise which wall led to the outside, ran away
Perrin: Wrote a letter
Lan: Walked around without a shirt on, died to a fade's blade, resurrected (who provided the tears we do not know), watered a tree, having to consider if he'd like some D
Moiraine: Abusive to everyone, died to a fade's blade, resurrected, treated more people like dirt, apparently set everything up off screen
Lanfear: had sex
Ishy: Decided not to kill Mat even though he knew he was in the Tower, decided not to kill Perrin, decided not to kill Rand
Bookborn how do you manage to keep doing these reviews!?
Doesn't matter, had sex
Rafe hates Robert Jordan. He is a disloyal fan, a fan-enemy, and having him the showrunner for this series was a gross mistake.
i could not agree more. this is his weird teen sexual awakening fan fiction of a script.
I think the thing that happened to Moiraine before she met Lan was the prophecy she witnessed together with Siuan.
Oh, maybe. They just talked about it in a weird way I feel like lol
Yeah because before the prophecy Moiraine was like any other student but after the prophecy she and Siuan dedicated themselves to finding the dragon reborn for 20 years. And so she changed from a careless novice/accepted to an intense person with an iron will and no one knew where this intensity came from.
This was my take on it too.
She made it sound like she was attacked or something lol that's why I was like...what is she talking about? But I suppose getting her duty makes sense. But book Lan would've...known about that lol @@mohamedfarah168
I interpreted it as this!
I'm binging your first 4 episode videos since my wife and I are behind on watching due to life (kids/work/etc.). These videos are helping me because my wife keeps asking me questions about who/what/where and I try to tell her that the show is doing a lot of things that don't happen the books, some characters are combined/removed, some have different motivations, and so on. One thing I will say, I feel like Ishamael and Liandrin are killing their roles which I hope means good things for the show since compelling villains really make things interesting, at least generally. Thanks for the content!
Thank you! Honestly the villains are the best part of this season imo. They continue to be very good!
Bookborn, you're amazingly polite. You see the man behind the curtain and your analysis is correct. That's some Canadian levels of politeness you've got there. I'm pretty grumpy-old-man about this whole waste of an opportunity.
Moiraine to me is the embodiment of Motherhood. She literally dedicated her life to finding, protecting, and teaching the Dragon Reborn. (Avoiding spoilers just in case.) Queenly, as her name entones. She is patient, intelligent, and strong. She sacrifices her own comforts to help those around her, often giving but never getting- especially with healing. Like any well-developed character, she is not perfect. Manipulation is her thing, but never rudeness. At her heart, she is truly good, and that bothers those that find everything problematic.
It's sounds to me like you've arrived at your "Say a prayer, and ride on." moment. Those of us who actually love R.J.'s work are with you.
I can't watch this anymore Im afraid. Im too disapointed...
I agree with you. It's just lame TV. I've read the books twice. I see the books and the TV show as two completely different experiences. I am bored with the TV series.
Half the problem is that there just isn’t as much time to develop the stories enough. We used to have 24(!) episodes of a season for a show. That was so much more time with each character. I think the problem with shows nowadays is that the 8 episodes really aren’t enough to tell the whole story.
Exactly. 8 1-hour episodes can't do anything to match with 24 40-minute episodes like we used to have. I feel like Game of Thrones is partly responsible for this when it got reduced in the final seasons to fewer but longer episodes. And we all know how destructive that was to the story and characters.
I don't know if it's because making TV shows has become too expensive to have so many episodes or if it's a reflection of the writers' inability to show and develop characters so instead they just jump from plot point to plot point (which definitely happened in GoT). I'm getting so lost watching this show. Rings of Power did it too.
When I'm watching the WoT show, I feel like half of it has been edited out. Hence why I'm here trying to figure out what I've missed.
For example, in E4 or E5, Egwene gets captured. And the other 2 realise she is captured. And then the scene ends. Um, what? Surely they would run back and see if they could rescue her? Nynaeve would blast them all with her super powers or at least realise that it's hopeless and watch as Egwene is carted off while they follow from a distance and talk about what they'll do next. But no. Egwene gets captured and the other 2 just cease to exist. On to the next story point.
There's just no flow or weight to what is happening.
Might want to start calling this series. Things the WoTShow got correct
Then there wouldn't be a video at all lol
Would be a short show, hi and godbye 😂
lol I know people think it's funny I'm still doing these, but there are still broad strokes to talk about!
@@Bookborn I love them, please keep them coming
What about the min/mat plotline.
Mat is kocke dup by liandrin for y months
Liandrin knows mat will dig into mins cell.
She arranges for mat and min to become lovers.
They get released
Min gambles mat loses
Mat and min talkabout fucking.
Min meets ishamael
This was arrabged by liandrin
Ishamael wants min to deliver mat to cairhien.
The issue is how did liandrin know mat would tunnel to min. Also it was 6 months in jail. So now we need min to take mat to cairhien....
Its jsut massive convoluted, plot contrivances in every sibgle moment
Yes its replacing book 5 because they cant have the main character gone for 8 books 4:50
Game of Thrones would like a word 🤣
This may have been mentioned in another comment, but even back in season one I could tell the show caters to book readers vs. newbies. It’s really jarring, something I’m not used to. Even having read them, I still feel like they should explain more what this world *is*. Why is the dark one so scary?
Even scaled down its throwing a lot at the audience all the time. This series is just difficult to adapt.
One thing I enjoy and always take note of is the background/set pieces. Very elaborate with a lot of care put into it. It’s not something I typically look at during a first watch.
Ok so the first time they leave the tower Liandrin definitely lures them out secretly to help their friends in Falme. You're thinking of the second time these 3 leave the tower when Suian sends them.
I also don't like spending time watching TV, but I am finding myself really dying to watch the next episode. I really did love this episode a lot because I prepped myself to not think about the books.😅 Except the Lans scenes definitely dragged and felt pointless even if i enjoyed little bits here and there. You make very good points. Especially rudeness being mistaken for strength. Great point.
My other thought is that I think the whole show feels wrong on a certain level, even to non book readers because of their choice to make Moraine look like the main character. That choice is messing everything else up, and though I live Rosamund Like, I'm kind of starting to resent her because she ruined the show possibilities with her fame.☹️
OH OK someone else told me it was book 3 and I was like "no, seanchan is def book 2!!" But the Suian stuff isn't until book 3 - I knew Liandrian lured them out but I thought they were expecting it because of Suian. It all runs together at this point LOL
@@Bookborn Yeah... Egwene is about to get "collared"... uh... for something.
@@Nyet-Zdyes Which is of somewhat larger importance than, say, anything else that happens in the first two books.
@@paulkelly2701 No, I can't agree with you on that... although it is rather significant.
It pales in comparison to finding the Horn, for example.
The thing I referred to really only matters to Egwene.
Rand destroying the Trolloc army from the Eye matters far more than the Egwene thing.
Even Perrin's story with the wolves matters at least as much... and most likely more than what happens to Egwene in the specific (single) instance that I mentioned.
Mat's experience with the Dagger probably also has more important long-term consequences... Think of the holes in his memory that the Dagger gives him, and what he does about those holes, and the effects THAT has. FAR more important, IMO.
On top of that, it gives Rand an idea that also has FAR more far-reaching effects.
Hell, Perrin killing a couple of Whitecloaks has about as much effect as the "Egwene incident"... because it affects him as much, AND affects more people.
Don't be sorry. Its not a good show let alone an adaptation. I was rooting for it as well until I realized they weren't going to tell Robert Jordan's story so now I'm hoping they cancel ASAP just so we can disassociate this show from the books as quickly as we can. We'll probably never see another attempt to get our beloved ip adapted properly but we can hope and dream.
100% I think this is instead of the book 5 stuff for Moraine, and I think logane training him is b/c the forsaken that should do it wont exist in the show.
I think the book 5 stuff wont happen the same way b/c they might cut out the whole snakes and foxes stuff completely
As a non book reader it was pretty clear to me right from the get go that Selene was going to be a nefarious character. Then with the cold open in the 4th episode you instantly knew it was her, which is fine except foe the fact that if you have any sense you already knew she was a baddie. Its still a bit of a disjointed show that has good moments so you keep watching. The world that Jordan created seems to be quite interesting and rich so really it just makes me what to read the books.
The Rand admitting he was in love part I viewed as a younger man getting caught up and misunderstanding what love is. That might not have been how it was meant to be interpreted though.
As someone that is a book reader first that's watching the show for the same reason you said, to see the characters that I already love pictured on the screen, your reviews best represent how I feel about the show.
I think the exploration of Moiraine's family is actually really interesting and probably the only change I've liked so far.
I always think giving back story is good, I just wish it was handled a little differently (mostly moiraine not being so rude lmao)
Wasnt Lan's warder bond dropped when she was cut off from the one power? Maxsim was talking to Lan at the well about what warders go through without the bond and assumed that it had been only 2 weeks, Lan then said it was 6 months, the time from the breaking. That's how I'd interpreted it so far at least.
Interested to see where the tower story goes, obviously they are setting up the Black Ajah but to do it in this way? Seems like they are have the 3 "run" from the tower to escape Liandrin and help their friends, when its the Siuan Sanche who sends them out to investigate them in the books. Where the hells did she go btw?
The handling of Matt and Min so far has been a bit of a let down, If they hadn't had to switch actors i can only assume he would have been with Perrin for the show, I don't recall what Min was up to during book 3 and 4. It does seem like they are bringing everyone together tho.
I think you have mixed up Books 2 & 3's plot for the girls. Siuan sends the girls to hunt the Black Ajah in Book 3 and the girls end up in Tear. In Book 2, it happens mostly like in the show, where Liandrin tells the girls that someone is in trouble (I think Rand) and they follow her to Falme.
I think the Rand/Selene plot wasn't repetitive but I think it could have used more development.
I am just getting pissed when I watch this TV adaptions because so much is changed from the books. And so many choices are so crappy and makes no sense at all.
Actually, the Aes Sedai "ageless face" is a pretty big deal in the books. It's how most people identify aes sedai. There's no good way to do that in the show, so they seem to just be going with the idea that they age really slowly. Which also happens in the books.
Oh I’m not claiming ageless face isn’t a big deal! Just the whole idea of outliving people.
I gotta say, I don’t see this show as an adaptation. I think it’s fan fiction at best, feels like they think they can write a better wheel of time then Robert Jordan did. It’s such a contrast to the One Piece live action which felt like it was made with so much love for the source material. Also at 8:10 of the latest episode of WOT, they reused the same shot they used not even a second prior for absolutely no reason, a nitpick but it really threw me of.
fanfiction if it were written by a person who hates you.
Oh my word! It so is!! At 8 :10 of the episode Egwene leans in to look at Nynaeve's new hideous ring, then at 8 :15 it's the exact same shot of Egwene focusing on the ring and leaning in! Why the hell would they do that? Just weird.
Rafe is a hack. and not only its his fan fiction. it feels like its fan fiction from when he was 14 years old and just discovering himself sexually. This feels like something a teen would enjoy.
I gave up on the tv series in season 1. But I still watch reviews of the show. I feel like an ex still trying to get news of the person they dumped. 😀😂🤣
This episode broke me dude. More Lan deconstruction, opposite Mat, Rand living out 13 yr old boys from the 90s wet dreams, liandrin liandrin liandrin go away already, the sexual innuendo in every scene thats not rand banging a forsaken is just, it's telling. Oh Min working for the forsaken is just, I stopped there 1st time lol. I needed more bourbon. I actually liked Perrin and Elyas scenes. The rest needs Balefiring, it's the only way.
On your point of telling the same thing all over again. Feels like a rehash of the Stepin storyline. They could have done more for season 1 by removing that storyline completely (the better part of 2 episodes) if we were going to have the same drama for Lan/Moiraine
Thanks for doing these videos. I totally agree with your assessment. I also wanted the show to be great. I still follow all the news on what's coming for season 3, but I'm so down about everything that's happened and happening. Brandon Sanderson has been coming out in the last few months with comments on the poor storytelling. No setup or payoff. So your points are spot on.
At this point I think they're just merging Liandrin's and Elaida's storylines and putting them on Liandrin's shoulders. But that's just a theory.
Oh also, I think the THING that happens to Moiraine that Alanna is talking about is hearing that foretelling only she and Siuan hear in the books, cause for Moiraine that's a moment that changes all moments after it, right? At least that was my interpretation of that.
That’s been my working theory too but apparently Rafe said at Jordan Con that Eladia will be in the series. Either way I don’t mind the changes to liandrin because at least they are compelling
My new theory is that Liandrin will take Alviarin's place instead of Elaida
@@sanjna7570 oooh that's a good theory. I like it better than my own. I hope they do that.
@@fine_nib_witch I hope they don't. What about hunting for the black a'dam. At that point, there's been a 'tiff in the Tower' and whoever is hunting can't be getting any promotions in the home office, if you get my meaning. This was also the reason merging Elaida was not a good idea. Or do we have a candidate to lead the 13 black sisters?
As far as I can tell nothing about the show is working for non book readers. I’ve talked several people who didn’t read the books into watching the show and none of them have any idea what’s going on. Nothing about the characters the story as a whole the current plot. No one knows what the horn is or why they care.
Unpopular opinion. I'm loving the show. I haven't read the books. The show is not totally perfect. But I love it. I was to see how it will go
I still remember that people were trying to sell wasting a whole episode on the warder who's aes sedai died as there to set up Moiraine and Lan's future events. How'd that work out?
That's the problem when you deviate from the source material, you may find it difficult to get back to the road you started from. I expect that the writers understand that they have gone far afield from Jordan's writings. Because of this, their fidelity to the source material becomes even more broken. Every episode has less scenes that happen in the books.
As a show-only person, I've really enjoyed this season overall. But listening to you, I can see how so many changes would make book readers upset, even if it seems great to me.
Just as an aside, I find it interesting to hear your opinions on what show-only viewers like myself might feel about the characters. I definitely don't enjoy Nyneave as much as you, as she just feels very one-note & gives off a very unlikable attitude. Maybe that's how she is in the books, but for me, she's not easy to root for.
If I had to rank characters stories who I'm most interested in, it'd go:
*1. Rand* - even though he doesn't get a lot of screen time, I'm dying to know more about male channelers, especially a potential one that can control his power
*2. Liandrin* - not because she's likeable or relatable, but she seems to have her hooks into so many schemes, possibly even working with Ishamael?
*3. Ishamael* - to this point, he's the big bad & another male channeler who hasn't gone mad, plus mysteriousness goes a long way
*4. Egwene & Elayne* - love them both, and at this point, their story seems pretty connected. Egwene's sincerity, dedication & hard work, paired with Elayne's status & kindness, just makes even simple conversations between them enjoyable
*5. Lan* - his story this season has been kind of underwhelming, but the character they established in S1 still makes him someone I care about & root for
*6. Nyneave* - Edit: Forgot to include her originally! The tower stuff is interesting, but she seemingly has changed the least from introduction to now. So far, she's basically what Egwene said... someone who has all this power & doesn't care to put in the work, while also having a hostile attitude towards basically everyone around her. Also, she always looks upset, angry, or confused. She's setup as this person that just lucks into all this power & being a chosen-one/prodigy, but is only a good person to a handful of close friends. I struggle to enjoy her character, but am interested in the story.
*7. Logain* - I kept hearing book readers say Logain was one of their favorite characters, and throughout S1 I couldn't understand why, especially when it seemed like his relevance was cut short. But even though he lost his ability to channel, a pairing with Rand & helping him control his abilities is definitely something I want to see.
*8. Perrin* - I was honestly more interested in his story when he was with the other crew tracking down Padin Fain, but I'm still curious as to where he goes from here. The reveal that he was a "wolfbrother" wasn't that interesting, since it's something the audience has figured out for a long time now
.
*Big Drop Off*
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*9. Moiraine* - I'm sure this will move up now that she's back with Rand, but this low ranking is purely based on her likeability hit that has taken a complete nosedive this season. She reminds me of one of those characters from poorly written shows that rely on their conflicts only happening because nobody talks to each other, keeps unnecessary secrets, and acts in impractical ways that directly lead to obvious issues... Ones that wouldn't occur if this were a normal person making real choices. Even if I don't have the full picture yet, being a complete d**k to any & everyone, combined with the writers deciding to take her channeling abilities away, makes her stuff not very enjoyable.
*10. Mat & Min* - It makes me sad to say, because I know how much you like him in the books & dislike the choices made in the show, but even without book knowledge I agree that the changes aren't working. It was a little interesting to see he was being held captaive by Liandrin, but that ended up making me more curious about her & her scheming rather than him. Being cowardly, abandoning his friends, avoiding even talking to Egwene, and just opting to run away with a stranger... yeah, not a guy I'm too fond of yet. And Min, I don't know enough about, and currently just don't find interesting.
So there's my overly long, way too detailed novel of a comment! But if your videos weren't so good, I wouldn't have been compelled enough to write this, so I blame you for being good at your craft!😂
btw. great post from a non book reader. interesting to see your perspective. things i want to point out why this show is such a miss
1) you mention Rand as your favorite. that is awesome. I dont get the feeling that a lot of non book readers feel the same so far due to the fact that he is almost an afterthought in the show. but what is so bizarre about that is that Rand is not only the main character of the books. he is alone on his tier. and the next tier of importance is like 10 lvls down. that is how central he is to everything. Which again is why how the show is treating him thus far makes very little sense for a season and a half of barely seeing him.
2) Perrin + Mat as 8 - 10. again subpar development of 2 of the most important characters in the wheel of time books that are in that next tier below Rand i was talking about. along with Nyaneve + Egwene + Moiraine + Lan. basically the OG 7. they are massacring these 2 characters
3) Moiraine is nothing like the books. current season Moiraine is awful, specifically in how she interacts with Lan. not at all her. Think of those grandparetns you have, full of wisdom that sometimes have light hearted gripes at each other but you can see their bond is eternal and really made of stone. this is not that.
4) Logain is nothing like the books cuz Logain in the books only really starts showing up with any amount of importance like halfway through the series. so all the Logain stuff youve seen so far is show only. although im enjoying it.
5) Lan is so lame. He is the Kind of a lost kingdom. the greatest swordsman in the world. Yet Moiraine has now killed a fade + forsaken. he got his butt kicked against 2 fades and cries a lot. ya he sucks so far. Season 1 Lan was decent. Season 2 Lan is atrocious so far.
6) LIandrin. although like everyone else i think the actress is doing a superb job. its actually starting to irritate me that they are giving so much screen time to her no matter how good she is which = no screen time for the actually important characters of the series. So its like a love hate thing right now when she is on screen.
That being said. dont let any book readers opinions color yours. you have the gift of watching this without knowing there is a far superior version yet. So do so. Once its done though (not before) i highly suggest reading the books although its an undertaking at 14 books. but it is one of the greatest stories ever told so worth the work.
@tarekt8427 Thanks for the response! I agree about Rand not getting enough screen time, but he still managed to leave a strong impression whenever he is.
I think a lot of that is that like Egweyne, he's a genuine good person, a bit naive, but wants to do right by everyone. Couple that with being the dragon reborn (something S1 set up as a huge deal) & us getting to learn about a male channeler, he becomes super interesting.
He also gets the most interaction/story setup based directly around the big villains, who are always fascinating to learn about.
About Mat, I'm really bummed to hear about how great he was in the books. I could tell listening to this channel that he's really important, but the show has not done him justice. By S2 e4, I feel the show is at its most boring with his parts.
It's so weird to hear about book Liandrin, though I'm sure it's even weirder for book readers to see this version of her.
I don't even know if I like the character, but she is just tied to so many things at this point. Is she working with the dark friends? What's her plan with Mat & Min? What's she planning with Nyneave? Why did she tell her about the events in the West? What is she trying to achieve at the tower, and why does she hate men so much?
There's plenty more, but they really positioned her to be a major player somehow.
And yes, I *REALLY* want to read the books, but I know if I do, the show might stop being fun for me.
@@corey2232 i was saying you should read them once the entire series is over. i feel like if you do it before finishing the series ti will most likely diminish your enjyment. but doing it after will only enhance it, taking what you love from the series and making it even greater. :) good discussion overall.
I think Moiraine's story will come around by end of season.
She is a victim of a horrible assault, she hasn't talked about it with someone like Lan /w Alanna/Warders, she comes from a political dynasty/White Tower politics that is paranoid and dangerous, She has been given a mission of incredible importance but must carry it herself, she cannot be like Liandrin with her secret or Alanna with her warders and big family because of her mission. She is cold to her sister because that is another way Aes Sedai handle their aging, a way to not be hurt is to drive people away from you. You can see the emotion of the homecoming on her face, she been 20 years in the Wilderness, her search was fruitful which means the world is ending and she is one of the few that know that. Now She is completely alone, trying to help Rand but she needs help too.
Wonderful way to see her character
Once we see what her vision showed her, things will make sense going back and rewatching things
For all we know, she was shown that the more people around her the more lives would be lost
This is the great thing about being able to stream things nowadays as back in the old TV days, you either had to take it on VHS to rewatch it wait til the episode came back on TV again
Ok five minutes in and will write more of my thoughts later but...in regards to the Moiraine/Lanfear stuff, I don't think this is a replacement for book 5 scene. Honestly I feel that they're building up Lanfear (she really is almost sympathetic so far!) and want to give her motivation to hate Moiraine going forward...*hopefully* leading up to a showdown between the two of them similar to book 5. Maybe at end of Season 3? They clearly have lots of plans for Lanfear going forward so I anticipate we'll get lots of Ishy/Lanfear interactions as the two main Forsaken on the scene thus far.
One more note before I continue watching. Very intrigued by how sympathetic they're making the villains so far...feel more interested in Lanfear, Liandrin and Ishy than I do in Rand or Mat at moment!!
I def misspoke there, I think Lanfear and Moiraine will for SURE show down again, but I'm wondering if cutting Moiraine off from the source is their way of avoiding what actually happens to her character in book 5 - by taking away power, they don't have to...take away her character, if you know what I mean.
yup that makes sense. I have to say though, I'm still going to miss that scene at the docks. One of the all-time great scenes...so cinematic in my mind@@Bookborn
Another fake death...
I do have to add, that it's really nice knowing that, just like killing off main characters and having them alive and well again, we can now kill off Forsaken and they'll just come back to life. Cool. Zero stakes for anyone in this show.
well Moiraine didn't use balefire so...@@Perry_Wolf
I appreciate your reviews every time. This was my least enjoyed episode of this season so far. I'm hoping they can pull it together for the last half. At least Aviendha is introduced in the next episode 😊
Very excited to see Aviendha!!
I’m with you on just being confused about the overall direction of the show. Liandrin and Nynaeve have been a highlight so far this season, but their whole interesting dynamic is now done with since Liandrin attacked her-I would’ve much preferred this version of Liandrin to not be a dark friend but to be more like just Elaida or for it to remain unclear longer.
I’m with you on being in the show’s corner and wanting to love it but also just being bored most of the time 🤷♂️
YES about Liandrin. Almost wish they had a random red betray them so it would be tension on Liandrin but then it wouldn’t be so black and white. I’m interested to see what happens because they have done a lot of set up for liandrin so maybe they aren’t planning on throwing it all away
@@Bookborn yeah let’s hope there’s some interesting payoff for the deep characterization work they’ve done with Liandrin so far (and the excellent acting).
I just watch these to see all the different shadings you give the word, "interesting".
☠️
last scene with Liandrin reminds me a tale:
Two hunters met a bear in the forest. The bear rushed towards them and the first hunter shouted - let's run!
They ran for a long time, the second hunter began to get tired, but the bear did not lag behind. The second hunter suddenly remembered that he had a gun!
- Why am I running?! Turns around and shoots the bear twice and kills it.
The first hunter comes up and says:
- You’re a fool, we’ve almost reached the house, and now we’ll have to drag it!
I'm pretty sure they cut moiraine off to avoid other things that happen the character later.
I absolutely agree with your take. I'm more bored than upset. Too little development in so much time.
As a non book reader, ep4 was the best of the season so far for me. Felt like an actually compelling episode of tv for the most part, with enough momentum and intrigue in the various plots to keep interesting. I also think the sets and costume designs were great. The look of the town Moraine visted, the interiors, and her blue dress all looked fantastic.
Big feel you on the aimless storytelling. I can't help but feel like there's nothing that exciting. They have dragged out the wolf thing so long it just feels overdue. Matt doesn't have anything to do (to the point his character literally doesn't know where to go). Rand literally is hiding and had a half hearted talk with Logain then gave up.
It's like if in Empire Strikes Back they just started the movie with Luke in Dagobah and everyone else floating in space, and gave us no information about where they were going or why
I will say this about The Wheel of Time TV show. It is not The Wheel of Time. I have no idea where this story came from but it wasn't from anything Robert Jordan ever wrote. Not to imply that it is a bad story, it is just not The Wheel of Time.
thanks for these videos, it's been so long since I've read the first few books, and while watching the show I keep thinking "wait I don't think it was like that in the books...but how do we even know what's going on here if we haven't read the books? who is this even for?" I want so badly to like this adaptation, since it's been trying to get made since basically the 90s - and tbh I think that's part of the problem - but you're spot-on with the inefficient storytelling critique, it's so messy.
Very good measured video.
I'm having a different experience. I am a book reader and have enjoyed season 2 so far. My husband did not read the books and is also having a great time watching. It doesn't feel boring to me. It's not perfect, but no tv show is. I trust that we will see character growth and plot points converge. I don't find Moiraine rude. For me, it comes across as pain and frustration.
Preface: I have never read the books, but I'm a big fantasy reader
I found season 1 to be genuinely bad TV. So far, season 2 is much better, with my favorite episode being episode 3. However, you're right that the tower plotline is basically carrying the show on its back.
Moraine does seem very unlikeable, not only to Lan but also her sister??
Perrin's story still lacks a lot of momentum and I feel like I should know who the Shienarans are...but I have no clue as they weren't introduced, so I feel like I'm missing out...
Rand's storyline I'm okay but I wish we were spending more time with him.
Mat this season is still charismatic but he hasn't been given anything to do...I almost feel they could have cut all his scenes and just do the big reveal of him being with Liandrin and being let go all in one scene later on (to make more space for Rand Perrin??) IDK
Overall I'd say I'm at a 6 out of 10, purely based on some good emotional punches with Nynaeve
Perrin and the Shienarans...
The Shienarans are the group he was running with, until S2E3... including the short guy with the eye patch.
Some of them were with him in S1E8, digging up that horn from under the throne.
Yeah not going to lie I found myself a little pissed by your title. I was like "there's nothing in this show that is in the books" then the first thing you said was just that lol.
I think I get what you're saying about the show overall...it feels like a bad relationship, where on paper everything looks like it should be great, but in practice, you just never feel the pull that you want to for it.
"Fixed in a hate filled hypnosis" If you're allowing a tv show to make you feel like that it's entirely on you. You can't blame the show for that.
I love the books, love the length and even Jordan’s long-winded-at-times sections. That being said, the problem the show has as a stand-alone feature (I agree that at this point it should be viewed as an independent story instead of an adaptation) is that it spends too much time on things that don’t matter in the end, and too little on what does. They spend more time telling you about warders, showing sex scenes with warders, showing bonding amongst warders, etc… and so very little time explaining things like how the power works, who the forsaken are, the politics of the white tower, etc. Watching the show I know more about the warder’s personal relationships than I do about what a ta’veren is. I watch it with people who never read the books, and when I give them LITERALLY 20 seconds of a quick “this is what this is” they say “why didn’t they just put that 20 seconds in the show??” My reply: “But then they would have had to cut out naked warders in threesomes.”
"My reply: “But then they would have had to cut out naked warders in threesomes.”
Rafe Judkin's sexuality might have something to do with that. 😉 ( _actually_ , look it up)
Apparently, double penetration is more important to the plot than ta'varen.
I think your point about repeating the same story beats is the reason why the show isn't living up to its potential. We get several scenes showing different variations of the same idea, Nynaeve is traumatized by her accepted test, Lan is sad that Moiraine left him, Rand is shacking up with Selene. They have the same kind of conversation each time, throwing lore exposition in almost as an afterthought. Like, we're shown liandrin has a 90yo son to show that aes Sedai age different, then we get a far more interesting scene with Moiraine and her sister exploring the same idea.
There were good scenes, I loved Moiraine and her sister sitting over tea, I thought Mins dream sequence really nailed the ethereal vibe of the world of dreams, I love Elaynes scenes and liked Liandrins betrayal.
It's just confusing, seline came across so sweet in every scene until bam, she's bad (let's forget about the "poem"). Liandrin came across as menacing but not evil, and now she's bad too.
Some of the best TV tells you exactly what the motivations are for both sides of the conflict, then sets them on a collision course for each other. We're excited to see how it'll play out. WoT keeps everything a mystery and tries to go for a retrospective "aha!" moment that I'm not really loving.
As someone who hasn’t read the books, at this point in the show I’m struggling because I don’t really like basically any of the characters apart from Nynaeve. I particularly am finding Rand very irritating currently I’m just not feeling particularly invested in what I assume is supposed to be the main story line.
I agree with what you were saying about the reveal in this episode, it feels like they were just wanting to use the whole storyline to cram in some more “adult” scenes but then forgot to actually build anything up.
Also even as someone who has not read the books I can often tell when they’re changing stuff which is not really what you want…
7:25 yeah, I think you’re on to something about “good tv”. I think there’s been a change in expectations and interest in viewing mediums, but especially adaptations. A lot of strong IPs are getting lackluster responses/reviews. Even tried and true properties like Mission Impossible and Indiana Jones did poorly. My guess is that production companies have become complacent and formulaic in their writing, which makes the show seem boring. I think the Wheel of Time is suffering from this as well. And in an attempt to hit these formulas, they’ve departed from book content to the extent that they are disenfranchising book fans.
They definitely play favorites when it comes to character development. And i think one of the biggest mistakes was not developing relationships between most of these characters. No Lan and Rand bonding? No Thom and Mat? Barely getting to Perrin and the wolves, Lan and Moraine acting like turds to each other. The only good relationship is Nynaeves and Egwenes. It feels so far removed that i wonder how they could possibly fix it.
I love the story. My main issue with the show is all the warder bonding moments we are getting, something that wasn't in the books, at least at this length. Having 2 full scenes of Lan in episode 4 explaining his feelings about moraine seems like the biggest waste of screen time.
Before watching, I just want to say this.
My thoughts:
My big problem is the story/motivations... like, Rand hasn't spent enough time with Moraine to intrinsicly trust her when she bursts in and 'kills' his girlfriend. I'm not buying it. I thought the Perrin/Hopper scene was amazing though... I think I may have a bias because I have a great dog. :)
The girls were meh, Perrin was fucking awesome, Rand was not good, Morain+Lan were not good, Mat+Min were ?
Ok. Time to watch :)
Ok. Watched. Yeah, it seems you agree the writing is off. Great video! Don't apologize to us! You are making content FOR us. Thank you!
Rand has spent much time with Moraine going from the Two Rivers, being separated in SG, meeting up in Tar Valon to traveling to the Eye where she went against her Warder and others to carry out his wish to allow them to think him dead
She didn't demand that since she was older that he listen to her...she has been there as an Alfred to his Bruce
Even shielded, she still wants him to be ready for his battle to come with nothing more than a dagger on her person pushing forward to do her best
Yeah, I agree, and meant to talk about something and forgot - I think splitting up all the characters as they have has done the show a disservice, because they can't drive character dev together but it has to be done separately. As runtime goes, that's less efficient because they have to keep cutting back and forth. Moiraine and Rand DID get some nice time together at the end of season 1, so I think the foundation could be there, but I think because they have developed Rand so little in this season, it almost feels like a reset.
@@Bookborn I see your point. They DID spend a lot of time together. But also like you said, everyone is separate. I feel like it would've been more believable if the characters spent more time with each other. And not sure if you said it, but the way Lanfear come back very well could be the Dark One's power to retain spirits, but now retains bodies too.
I have finished the book series and is a fan of WOT. I was actually excited to watch my fave characters come to life on TV. I will always choose books over TV or movie versions. This series though confused the heck out of me. It was like I was watching a different book series come alive. As a fan, I kinda feel a disconnect, to the point that I asked myself do I really remember the book differently? 🤔 Thank you for the book vs TV guide, now I know I'm not crazy.😅
One piece was amazing. I would say it defines what an adaptation should look like.
I think the thing that happened to Moiraine 20 years ago was hearing the prophecy that the dragon had been reborn.
Alanna didnt talk about it like she knew what happened, only that something happened to make Moiraine change.
I agree with you that there does seem to be too much filler rather than moving the plot along or developing characters. There's so much good source material, it does get annoying. They should pay you to consult - then we'd have a better show!
Appreciate you sharing your prospectives of the show v. the books. Moraine is one of my favorite characters in the books. I agree with One Piece, I’ve never watched the anime and really like the live action.
I watched episode 1 said no...I don't think I want to see the rest. now I just watch all the great youtube content, like yours, to confirm that I'm sadly not missing anything special. I've actually wanted to reread book 2 even though it wasn't my favorite and I stalled in the series after book 5 because the show wasn't supposed to go passed that....sooo guess its time to continue the book journey with how the show is feeling to me.
Some good things and some really bad things.
Liked the White Tower events, again, they're really nailing that.
Happy to see Hopper and have Perrin getting more exposure as a wolfbrother.
Really annoyed with how Lan is being handled and how much references we have to hear about Alanna sleeping with her warders.
Really annoyed with the lack of screentime for my boy Mat.
The Rand v Selene interaction was going really well until she suddenly started channeling and revealing she was a Forsaken. Would have been much better to let the viewer know, through the prophecy and the scene with Ishy, but leave Rand in the dark (hehe) for a bit longer.
The ending was terrible. Really, how often are we going to see characters appear behind someone else out of fricking nowhere and "killing" them. The doors were closed when Rand and Selene were inside, Moiraine had to open them and when they left in the end, they were closed again. So not only did Moiraine, silently, open those heavy wooden doors, she also closed them, silently. Then she snuck across the room in her heavy dress, silently, and she drew Rand's sword, silently. Terrible B-action movie material.
This ain't even a book scene. They completely fabricated this out of thin air, to again show how "badass" Moiraine is and cucking Rand again. When are they finally gonna start showing some badass Rand moments.
The Black Ajah hunt is in book 3. Liandrin approaches Egwene and Nynaeve in Book 2 because the Shadow wants to separate them from Rand, Min and Elayne tagging along was unintentional.
I don’t think it is, they get captured by the seanchan in the great hunt because of Liandrin.
@@Bookborn Yes, but Siuan doesn't task them with hunting the Black Ajah until the next book, after Liandrin returns to the Tower and then leads 12 of others to steal a bunch of ter'angreal and leave the Tower.
The Shadow didn't want to separate Egwene and Nynaeve. It was Baalzemon who purposely ordered Egwene and Nynaeve to be lured to Falme, so Rand could see them get captured.
@@thomasc9036 No, Egwene and Nynaeve were meant to be brought across the ocean. Nynaeve not being captures likely delayed their departure enough to allow Rand and co to show up, but Rand being there to see them captured was never the plan and there's no indication to that effect.
@@johanjarvinen Egwene and Nynaeve were held in captivity for a few months before Rand's party arrived. The point of capture was to sow discord between the Dragon and Seachan and to make Rand despair.
Seanchan could have taken them or Ishamael could have just taken both to Seanchan continent anytime after the capture but that never happened. Think of why either option never happened.
In my opinion, this season is a huge step up from S1 and *almost* everything is working for me. But the Moirane/Lan stuff is genuinely incredibly frustrating. It feels so fake and and I feel like one scene between Lan and those other warders could have replaced all of the ones we've gotten so far.
Rafe seems to have a weird fixation on the Warder Aes Sedai Bond. never though i would hear those terms this much in a season and a half. I would make a more lewd comment about this weird fixation but ill hold off.
Yes, they are taking things in book 5 and putting them in now. They are in Cairhien. I'm not sure if they will go to Tear due to budget cuts.
The thing that happened to Moiraine 20ish years ago is very clear in new spring... Right before she was raised Aes Sedai.
Ok yes I know what that was but they made it seem like she was attacked or something lol idk I thought the way they phrased it was weird
Spoilers!!
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Do you think the show runners are setting up Nynaeve to demonstrate her ground breaking healing on Moiraine as apposed to the interactions she has in the books? (trying to be as vague as possible to avoid spoilers)
Very possible, although Nynaeve feels so far from that right now that it seems they’d have moiraine without power for much longer than I think the narrative can survive 😬 if that was their plan, I really don’t know why they didn’t have it happen to moiraine at the end of season 2. Taking her power in season 1 was too early imo
@@Bookborn I agree, not sure why so many large departures from the books. The books are so Rand centric but instead the show is making this a Moiraine story. S2 is definitely a step up from S1 though
Never in my life I would have thought they would make me hate Moiraine. I feel like I am experiencing a different character.
I feel like you can blame a lot of Moraines rudeness on being blocked from the one power rn. But then in season one it wasn’t really rudeness, she was just secretive mostly
Taking my cues from a Wheel of Time Video you Guest Starred in, it no longer feels ironic to call Lan a ‘Simp’.
He’s gone from Simp Prime to Forever Simp with a terribly noticeable character development limp.
On a more genuine note though, I consistently felt strong resonance in your analysis, with one big exception…
It has been no small surprise for me to actually find myself more hopeful after this Episode. I had been desperate to get some proper evocation of Robert Jordan’s creation. There really hasn’t been much at all through the 11 Total previous Episodes.
And finally, with Perrin, I got exactly what I had been desperate for. It’s not a recitation from the books, but it does distill the essence of Wolfbrother, in my eyes.
And the focus on Age using Liandrin’s final recruitment speech to get Nynaeve to commit to her, as the anchor, while bookending it with the Show & Tell of the Sisters Damodred was a very intelligently inserted evocation of the books.
Not to mention the effective magnification, instead of how Agelessness is depicted in the books, as a defining conceit of the plot, without much sustained associated storytelling that has any real emotional impact.
Beyond the Seaine/Pevara, we don’t really get much insight into the impact on the natural family of Aes Sedai at all.
I’ve watched the Episode Twice already… and the second time still flew.
It probably helped that I was able to tune out the Lan scenes after that first viewing.
Loved Ishamael owning the room in Min’s dream and just made me feel exasperated at what we missed with the Season 1 butchering of that Dream Dynamic with the 3 Ta’veren, all in service to that heinous ‘Who is The Dragon?’ booby prize.
Speaking of Ishamael, hated, no, absolutely loathed that opening scene. Mostly I can divorce myself from book hopes and expectations and judge a scene on its own merits, but INCANTATIONS?!!
Spellcasting?
Really?
The Wheel of Time is many things to many people, but I didn’t expect it to be Harry Potter and the Cursed Darkfriends that I crossed out on my Bingo Card.
Although the Episode quickly redeems itself, that was most horrid a beginning.
Another thing you noted that resonated strongly was the Rudeness. I’ve whined and moaned and bitched about inserting Contemporary Paradigms into Imagined Worlds for the sake of Modelling Progress for viewers.
This emerging trope of supposedly strong, unapologetic Women emerging in media feels a bit like a grandfather clock pendulum that has swung so hard at getting to that point, that it has punched right through any limiting cabinet of logic, into some misidentified nirvana of ‘strong women’ and stayed there, deaf to nuance and proper characterisation.
A faithful rendition of Moiraine’s character in the books would certainly not have seen her suffer in comparison, in terms of strength and integrity. And Rosamund Pike is certainly capable of capturing those nuances in her performance, if she is given the chance to.
Unfortunately, so far, not so for her.
I’ve been accused of being in the minority with my strongly negative views until now, so I savour the irony of seemingly (I can’t assert that my investigations have been exhaustive) being in the minority again, but on the other side of the ledger.
While there were things I hated about this Episode, it is clearly for me the one where my hopes to see the Wheel of Time books strongly evoked and properly adapted, were raised the highest.
Curiouser and curiouser.
Anyway, a massive THANK YOU for your efforts… and actually being a much needed conduit to clear thinking about what the Wheel of Time adaptation really means, to readers and non readers alike.
PS - you got a bit confused early on there, conflating the girls’ departure from the Tower in The Great Hunt, then The Dragon Reborn.
In The Great Hunt, Siuan was not involved at all. It was all Liandrin giving Egwene & Nynaeve reason to believe Rand was in danger and that he needed their help. Elayne overheard from her adjacent room and insisted she come along… from memory, I think that was the whole setup initially.
I don’t remember them even mentioning a destination because they used The Ways and Suroth & Co were waiting on the other side.
I appreciate your honest reviews. I also wished so hard to enjoy this show, but I just can't.
If they had called it something else and said it was inspired by WOT, and used different people in the same world, then I could probably enjoy it for what it is. But because they call it the WOT, I expect to actually see the WOT story, and i can't reconcile that with this show.
The "blood calls blood" poem announcing Lanfear's arrival is lifted straight from the books, isn't it? (I mean, the moon dial and all that isn't in the books, but the text is, yeah?)