Ukraine is Using Sonar to Track Drones
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- Опубліковано 15 лют 2024
- The Ukrainians have built a system that identifies drones with sound.
The counter-drone strategy is up one notch.
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Locating aircraft position by sound was heavyly used in WW2 to track bomber formations by night. It was mostly replaced by radar later.
The US Army used a sonic stealth aircraft Lockheed YO-3 Quiet Star during the Vietnam war.
"Sonic stealth" .. reminds me of WWII "night witches" on Po-2 biplanes, gliding in bombing run with stopped engines.
Next steps after sonic stealth might be also sonic camouflage (eg. under faked sound signatures of drones used by foe) or deafening sonic sensors prior mass attack :)
maybe sonic stealth can be used for moment of silence for those who died to save black rock and cargil
There's multiple ways of making very quiet propellers.
But it shouldn't be too difficult to add an emitter to each rotor to turn it into a speaker so it can cancel its own noise.
@@Houthiandtheblowfish Black rock is almost non existent in Ukraine.
I wonder where did you get the idea it's otherwise
maybe sonic stealth can be used for moment of silence for those who died to save black rock and cargil
Crickets*
The chopper the Americans used for the raid to kill Bin Laden was already using some sonic stealth technology, judging from the recovered tail rotor.
Taking the submarine sonar technology to the above ground drone surveillance is really remarkable adaption.
Heroes of Z
I read somewhere that a variant of the Russian Lancet drone has microphones for automatic tank engine classification while loitering
That would be really crazy... but possible, I guess.
@@cbhlde That ones pretty easy. Can gain a lot on just the amount of sound. Leopards and VW Jettas may come from the same country, but even if you are blindfolded, know nothing of cars or armor, one of these things sounds much different than the other. Once you get to large cargo trucks...lorries....things may get tricky for someone that has never heard either, but that's where the computers would earn their pay. Even then, anything that sounds large on the front line is probably a target to hit anyway.
Why bother - you have a build in camera - just use recognition software - already used - drone operator designates target from far and drone does the fine tune attack - this makes it immune to UA jamming.
Yeah, good point! :) Thinking about it; I hear, if something is wrong with my computer by sound, too. :p@@LackofFaithify
@@tomk3732 to beat camouflage
The British built a system of sound ranging listening dishes along their southern coast before the Chain Home Radar was installed just before WWII.
The PLA's autogyro corps pretty much implement that. Autogyros' main rotor are unpowered, they work by auto-rotation (hence the name). So during approach the corps turn off the tail propeller and approach the target in complete silence, the autogyro remains airbone thanks to the auto-rotation principle acting on the main rotor.
They were invented in the 1920s. They are not some cutting edge unknown tech just discovered.
@@LackofFaithify he didnt say that so why this needlessly confrontational response?
The main source of sound for rotorcraft is the rotation of the rotor itself and not the engine though.....
The high tech version of the WW2 British sound detectors used to track Luftwaffe attacks during the Battle of Britain
History repeats itself. WW I and even into WW II attempted to use sound to detect incoming aircraft.
What about "1B75 Penicillin"? The acoustic-thermal artillery-reconnaissance system. Arguably, there is acoustic stealth with the Abrams and T-80 due to gas turbine engine.
Always interesting. Thank you.
Squarehead has been doing this commercially for years. Note that changing the props or tweaking exhaust pipes can modify the signature.
Not only can you determine the model of drone from the sound. But with some work, and taking environmentals into account, you could also determine if it was carrying, and of what weight, a payload..
So … sound location of aircraft has become viable again, 90 odd years down the track. Thank you for this video.
Always good content...thanks
Thanks for sharing this article, sir.
First, I have no first hand knowledge of what they are using. But, if I were to do it I would take hundreds of old cell phones with small solar panels, set up a mesh network along the border. Local processing to pick up possible signatures, relay them back to CNC. With one hit you get possible entry. Two or three hits would give you most likely position, time, speed and bearing to feed into a defense system. Use a mesh network so that when nodes get taken out it self heals. Probably need the cells to send a periodic "I am alive" to see where the network needs to be repaired.
Countermeasures: don't fly the drones in a straight line. Most mesh networks have zero security so you can start flooding them with false signals. Even those that do, you pick up a node and download the key.
The Brits detected aircraft using sound before the invention of Radar.
‘Tried to’
@@akaFrits1I thought they used it for early warning and it would give them a direction and a rough altitude. It just took concrete walls the size of a building to catch the sound waves.
@@forfun6273 In good conditions aircraft could be detected at a distance of 20 miles. Which means: 6 minutes response time for a bomber at 200 mph. Not very effective.
DJI Rules the BattleField
Russia is starting to field Electronic warfare kits on their tanks and even some on infantry soldiers to block signals going to the drones operated by the AFU.
In US cities they have gunshot sound detectors. This wouldn’t be too different to change.
Track drones with sound. That's goes back to before WW2.
I'm pretty sure it was used in WW1 to locate artillery guns and provide advanced warning of airship raids.
attenuating or even suppressing some noises is technically possible with the technology of the 2000s. Being a "mechanical" vibration, the sound can be suppressed by emitting a sound of the same frequency and intensity in the opposite phase. The noise of the engine, in turn, is a relatively stable acoustic signal, so a simple electronic device can generate a signal in counterphase with the noise, and then it is only necessary to emit the signal at the correct intensity. It remains to be seen if the weight of the equipment somehow reduces the useful load of the drone to an extent that makes the solution useless. In small drones there will not be, but in heavy ones where a 10 kg equipment is not big lose, noise suppression systems will appear.
This doesn't really work, else we would have quiet airplanes and helicopters by now. Remember that you need the same output power for your noise cancellation and that the emitted sound wave is 3 dimensional
@@fg8557 rotax 912 engine, ultralight airplane engine have 75 Db noise and that ia an 100 hp engine , useful for heavy drone . and you need to cancel the noise only for the direction to so .... 10 -15 kg equipment ?
Tired: Radar.
Wired: Air Sonar
I remember a few years ago seeing a report in the US,
where cop cars were fitted with multiple microphones
to detect and triangulate the sound of gunshots.
4 x microphones spread out in a star pattern basically
that measures the time at which each microphone hears
the sound.
I'm pretty sure the same could be used not just on listening posts on the ground
but also in the air as well.
All the drone would need to do is momentarily turn off its engine and glide (slowly)
to triangulate the position of other drones, and then turn its engines back on.
Keep doing that at various spots and get a sense of what's in the vicinity.
At the very least it could provide an early warning of impending drone attacks.
The prop driven shaheed and similar craft are primary targets of the sound detect syste. Very small UAS are better detected by radio emissions, height is generally sub 400ft, and tend to be close to front lines where good sound detection is often too complicated to enact. Shaheed and like uas will tend to above that in many parts of their trajectory and often navigate automomously, so sound is ideal for detection, plus tend to be slow moving relative to their audible detection range
"Sounds" like an above ground version of SOSUS
Good analogy
1:03 the lower left hand text is interesting.
U have sound spectral analysis of the shelf solutions considering quadcopters... very narrow spectral signature, but the problem for detection are not aircraft, but many drones have noise supression.
I would think an acoustic system can be used to cue a radar/anti-drone system when to turn on and target the drone.
Against slow and noisy Shahed drones sure... but the faster the prey gets the less and less useful the sound signature methods will be. Still interesting within certain limitations.
Why so complicated - use Mugin 5/6000 as a base platform and add whatever you need - like FMCW radar. It's going to be the same "life cycle" as we have experienced since WW2 with real airplanes. Next big step is, drone interceptor with radar which can kill other drones.
Artillery shells and vacuum bombs can disrupt sound sensors.
electric fixed wing craft already is sound stealthy also infra red stealthy.
Man I was thinking to use sound. In ww1 the British used massive concrete walls to capture sound and direct it at microphone. It was basically early warning radar. They could tell what direction they were coming from and the elevation they were flying at.
Thanks!
Thank you!
I think one of the overlooked tactics to deal with drones, is the possibility of drone on drone vioIence.
Nah, already used.
@@tomk3732 I'd say it's very "under-explored".
I've worked on fairly small microphone "array antennae" some time ago, and more current DSP and small microcontrollers, plus smaller and more sensitive digital microphones, should make quite small array systems feasible.... I imagine that there are some pretty good programmers in Ukraine, and good microphones, with deep SNR...
Wondered if they would be doing this for counterbattery.
While this may be practical for imidiate warning before an imminent attack, the possibility of this becoming an anti drone awacs network is remote... the detection range will be very limited and saying that just some meteorological data has to be added, is extreem simplification! So next to every microphone there will be a whole meteo station? And I didnt even mention all the other accustic disturbances that can mask these buggers.
Grazie.
Thank you!
well, the US army tested a sound-cancellation system on a tank, it worked. so theres no reason you couldn't make one for a drone
This can easily be defeated via a small speaker on the drone to mask/alter their sounds.
no.. with arty it is simple the same explosion sound can be picked up no direction needed two distances crossect but with drone the sound direction is needed because the sound is continous.. no way to utilise doppler as there are at least 4 propellers interacting
Actually I doubt they'd use Starlink, at least not directly for each node. But it sounds like a really interesting task. A Mic, a computer, a comm module and a battery, maybe a solar module as well - that's what you need per mic node. Not sure what sort of computation would need to be done, but I assume a Raspberry Pi should be potent enough to do the edge-computing part. Once these nodes have done some state-independent and maybe state-dependent filtering and calculation, there shouldn't be much communication volume left to do. More importantly, you'd want to update your software over the air. The bill of material for one such node could be $250ish, $500 max. If you want 1s of sound travel max, you'd need 9 such nodes within each square km. Conservatively assuming a 10km range for LoRa - thats 169 Mic-cells per Starlink-node, make that $15 added cost per Mic node. $5000 per sqm doesn't sound terrible by military spending standards. Let's say 5km by 100Km coverage cost $550*500 = $275K, ok - let's say $500K to deploy. How much does a single Stinger missile cost?
You need a lot of people to deploy such system and the only thing you get is a warning that drones are coming. But drones are always there. It gives you zero ability to actually engage drones. It may give you idea how many drones enemy is using.
I think better thing is Russian drone jammer vs. PVP drones - $500 and you vehicle is relatively safe now.
@@tomk3732 not sure about those jammers, then also you’re talking about Russian devices. I heard about such decentral initiatives earlier and I guess the purpose is to get a better indication of where and when to place those few Gepards which will then have a fighting chance to shoot down those drones.
@@michaela.178 Gepards are few as you mention and Ukraine has 100s of similar systems - but still too few - Russia as well over a 1000. Problem is - that is too few. And a Gepard is a jucy target itself.
@@tomk3732 so what’s your point?
They used sound to pinpoint artillery in ww1
Props for changing the thumbnail 3 times
If nobody is watching...
If sound stealth is the next big thing …… the F-35 is at a VERY BIG disadvantage! This machine is LOUD! I didn’t believe it until I had the chance to witness it on my own……now on an almost daily basis 😂 …. thanks to the AIR NATIONAL
GUARD 😅😂
So, Russia did a big "marketing" for their passive acousting artillery detectors, too.
So, it is usefull to know where the drone CAME.
There is the operator, who just won a 152/155 mm salvo.
The polish anti drone system SKYcrtl use a mix of radar, optic and microphones, to detect drone, and determine his position. A hammer can be associated.
Think it was ww1 Britain built special reflection walls and microphones as an early warning messure
The is how you find f35 its loud af
Sonar in air?
No game changer ,losting the war will still lost.
WW2 technology, before radar.
👍
Se viene una lluvia de drones después del EMP de Rusia
Every,who lives near an airport knows that;)
You need to read Rusis paper on LAWS, to have a complete picture, just a recomendation.
here is a detailed video of the system you are probably talking about:
ua-cam.com/video/pYS3hrKfVKU/v-deo.html
No English subtitles sadly but i'm sure you can find some software that can generate them.
It is primarily used to identify Shaheds and (maybe) cruise missiles. Shaheds are slow and really loud. It is not used however against quadcopters and FPVs. I flew a dji mavic and it is really silent: you fly it 10 meters away and you practically can't hear or see it. That's why on many grenade drop video enemy soldiers seem to be unaware of danger they are in. You can have a quadcopter hover directly above your head and have no clue it's there
More videos
So you identify a drone... now what? It is usually suicide drone. It is one way.
Maybe this is to be used against larger multi use surveillance drones - sort of like cheap passive sensor similar to heat.
But even if you do this - now what? You need to have a much better fine tuning for fire solution.
This seems to be a good "warning" system but not a lot more than that - you cannot guide a missile AFAIK to a drone using its sound alone.
Repelent 1 anti drone system
Interesting, yes. Genius? Hardly.
What's with the constant support for Ukraine??? Have you still haven't understood what the Minsk accords were for? Reap what you sew
Amen
Russia is producing drones at industrial levels and this is mostly PR from ukraine.
Your previous vid showed the failure of large expensive drones in Ukraine, but crowed about even larger, more expensive drone projects.
Instead of cheap, rapidly replaced drones, Westerners work on the opposite. Now we look forward to detection systems too expensive to cover a concert, and drones that cost 10 times more, because they have a muffler.
:)
I think the Russian anti drone shield is better tech. The ukrainian system sounds like Vietnam war tech for monitoring Ho Chi trail
Far from it, Ukraine had already lost.
From Mexico we support you Russia...we latinos are already the majority in the US ... South West..USA. And we question why Biden cares more about Ukraine then America..to us America is falling..and Godless..we will keep coming stay fuerte Ruski
Promo-SM
Sounds like BS. Drones aren't audible passed a dew dozen meters
Sound detection? Give me a break! Bullshit propaganda!
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Yip to the moon and back hypersonic round the world in a h or 2 its possible