"But the Novus Ordo is Still a Valid Mass!"
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Yes...it is valid. But why does our attitude towards the liturgy center on mere validity? The worship of God deserves more than bare minimums.
#traditionalcatholic #traditionalcatholicism #traditionalmass #novusordo #spirituality #catholicapologetics #liturgy #holymass #jesuschrist #catholicchurch #catholicism
As a Future Fssp priest I can agree
God bless you
Based.
How many years of seminary do you have left, if you don't mind my asking?
@@Cathtradman Wonderful. So glad for you and the Church.
While nothing we do can match the sheer infinite majesty of God, we can at least rise above the profanity of every day life.
You took the argument out of my brain and gave it eloquence. 👏🏻
The same defenders of liturgically abused NOMs similarly argue that "God meets us where we are". My response to that: God indeed does meet us where we are - in order to call us away from there toward the holy, the true, the good and the beautiful.
Almost any Catholic and even non-Catholics would wear their finest clothes and behave with great solemnity and decorum if they were to attend a public meeting with the President at the White House, the King of England at Buckingham Palace, or the Pope at St. Peter's Basilica. How much greater respect and homage do we owe when we go to the House of the Lord God Almighty, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Hosts! Even in our age of egalitarian democracy, we still have an innate sense for the hierarchy of nature, and we are instinctively moved to respond to the highest of beings with all glory, laud, and honor.
Very eloquently and respectfully stated. I had more or less abandoned my old NO parish for a beautiful traditional parish. When I joined the choir at the traditional parish I was finally able to talk one of my friends, a very devout Filipino who attends Mass daily, into trying out the TLM. She instantly fell in love with it and now comes regularly. She recognized right away the feeling of being fully fed in spirit that even the quiet low Mass provides. Sadly, our weekday masses were set to a very early morning time with no sermon and neither of us can make it there so we're back to NO masses during the week. So sad. Validity is a very low bar indeed. God deserves the very best we can offer Him and the TLM is truly where Heaven and earth meet.
Can’t we say that it is God’s right to receive the best worship we can give him since He is the greatest good? Justum est!
Yeah, since religion is the subvirtue of justice, you have to render God what is due to Him. Not anything you feel most convenient for you.
The sense I get is that the NO Mass is shaped by what the community of the parish desires and considers adequate, rather than what God would desire of us.
Why didn’t Jesus command liturgy to look like? The church determines the liturgy.
@@javaman8895 If you meet Him, ask Him… but I’m pretty certain that He’ll tell you that it was up to the Holy Ghost, the Apostles and their successors to work it out… and they had Jewish temple service to serve as a template.
@@javaman8895a wonderful book by Fr. James Mawdsley - ‘CRUCIFIXION TO CREATION Roots of the Traditional Mass Traced Back to Paradise’ explains that the traditional mass serves the God-centered purpose of Sacrifice. The N0 serves the man-centered purpose of social community.
Big Yellow Taxi Lyrics by Joni Mitchell
[Verse 1]
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique, and a swingin' hot spot
[Chorus]
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone?
They paved paradise, put up a parking lot
(Shoo-bop-bop-bop-bop
Shoo-bop-bop-bop-bop)
[Verse 2]
They took all the trees, put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged the people a dollar and a half just to see 'em
[Chorus]
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone?
They paved paradise, put up a parking lot
(Shoo-bop-bop-bop-bop
Shoo-bop-bop-bop-bop)
[Verse 3]
Hey farmer, farmer, put away the DDT now
Give me spots on my apples
But leave me the birds and the bees, please
[Chorus]
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone?
They paved paradise, put up a parking lot
(Shoo-bop-bop-bop-bop
Shoo-bop-bop-bop-bop)
[Verse 4]
Late last night, I heard the screen door slam
And a big yellow taxi took away my old man
Validity is a very low bar to seek after. Attend the Latin Mass.
Trent horn fans gonna hate this vid
Trent Horne is a normie
The "It's valid!" argument comes down to one response. Of course it is, and no one is disputing that. If you knew that the President (current occupier of the office notwithstanding) or the King of the UK was turning up to your house for dinner, would you order delivery pizza or prepare leftovers? Would you dress as if you were lounging around with no one around? Of course you wouldn't! You'd prepare your best. That's what God deserves at Mass.
Your video is a carbon copy of this comment, but I wanted to put it in different terms (which are actually more applicable to laity at Mass but I think it still applies to the Mass itself)
SSPX say that Novus Ordo is not valid and if there is only NO mass available then you are dispensed from your Sunday obligation. James Voegal said as much in a video published to their website.
@@username65585I attend SSPX and do not believe that the Priests teach that the NO is invalid. They do discourage NO attendance.
@@marccrotty8447 I’m glad you don’t believe that. You should attend FSSP or ICKSP masses not SSPX masses which are illicit.
TLM at SSPX is NOT illicit, and is valid. Pack every TLM pew available. If I hadn’t found TLM at a SSPX chapel near me, I would have never returned to the sacraments after 41 years. N0 was hollow spiritually for me.
@@dariaschooler SSPX may licitly perform sacraments of penance and matrimony but not celebrate mass in general. Validity is different than licitity.
Just happened in Lemont, Illinois .
Cardinal Cupich telling the priest he no longer can give the Eucharist on the knees and to rip out the altar rails .
Distasteful at the least .
If a Saint walked into a NO mass they would leave immediatelyy.
Brilliant quote from Mr Pink to end the video!
For generations, my country, the Philippines, had only the Novus Ordo. Unfortunately, for generation, no one had passed on the TLM to us.
I'm glad that we are a Catholic country and my country is named to honor St. Philip the Apostle.
Only it's disheartening to know that my country is not giving full reverence to God because all we have is the Novus Ordo,
and I'm mortified that millions of my countrymen have lived and died without giving the Lord full reverence through the TLM
It's here if you look, and are willing to make the sacrifice.
@@TravelingPilgrim-ct6mh If you ever meet Cdl. Tagle, tell him that he and his cronies are part of the problem. The mere fact that he wants to be addressed as “Chito” is an indication of that! 🤨
Novus Ordo Mass is valid as the Eucharistic miracles are happening in its parishes throughout the world.
He didn’t say they weren’t valid.
The Orthodox see that as a sign of something bad, that it’s a sign that the priest or congregation doesn’t believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist. Given the statistics maybe that’s the reason they happen
Yes, I don’t live close to a TLM and attend a hybrid NO with kneelers for communion, Latin chants and 2 great priests and Altar centered as it should be Some TLM folks come off a little too haughty in assuming the NO s don’t measure up to GODS expectations. Reminds me of some ancient Jews
The Eucharist is a miracle you simpleton - recognise it as such.
👍👍 most recent in India
ua-cam.com/video/xA1bLuDswgc/v-deo.htmlsi=4LeDFGGTDmUtP-zq
As an Orthodox man watching this it's certainly interesting to see as I have no skin in the game.
Still, I think you're right. Why settle for the bare minimum?
In addition, I've taken a look at NO vs the Liturgy of St. Gregory and there is a big difference. If you truly believe that how we worship is what we believe, then it seems to me that Vatican II introduced a new faith.
Im Lutheran scandinavian super litergical super high church even more than the local catjolic church with their guitars and such. I have a insane tuff times, with all this i visited EO and i cant become orthodox i feel something is off i fear for my soul, it feels i have no where to turn for my soul nurishment but to trust the Lord.
@@mikaelrosingBecome catholic.
@@mikaelrosingBecome catholic
Yes, really well done. Your description and juxtaposition of the Sacrament and the liturgy was one I had not heard. And the final quote will have me listening next time to the words of that song in an even better sense.
Maybe online trads need to stop attacking the mass and take care of the plank in their eye.
Which plank do you have in mind?
@@Vinsanity997Schism
@@jeannebouwman1970+JMJ Are you saying the NO is schismatic?
@@brianbacon5149 no I'm saying that people who attend TLM are on average more schismatic than people who attend NO
@javaman8895 @jeannebouwman1970 +JMJ. I attended the NO for 50 years. Thanks to this pope, I have resumed attending the TLM for the first time since grade school. My experience is that TLM folks adore Christ the King first and foremost and they love the Church. The term schismatic makes no sense in the TLM context. I have yet to meet any "radicals". I see young families with lots of children and people of all ages. The Mass is heavenly and time tested. I won't be returning to the NO. The TLM is fully authorized and as Pope Benedict said, has never been abrogated. Pax Domini vobiscum.
I go to a good Novus Ordo. There is chant smells and bells, no female altar boys, Most of the Ordinary is said or sung in Latin, many of the women chose to veil, there are lots of big families, and a large people who chose to receive in the traditional and pious manner of kneeling and on the tongue. Not only that a new Church is being built which will have an altar accommodating to ad orientem and versus populum and have altar rails. I also sometimes attend a nearby TLM. As something of a NO trad I feel your pain. Settling for bare minimum is what so many people are complaining about in the dating scene these days. My family often says that when I try to go to the Latin Mass they'll be like "wElL hOW maNY cHurcHes dID yOu PaSS uP to gET to thAT OnE." This church is a half hour away from my house. I know of people who drive hours to get to a Latin Mass apparently my parents think those people are just idiots
Some people are happy subsisting on food from the valid quick-mart at the gas station, others go the extra mile to farmers market. I’ll pass on the valid N0 GMO liturgy. TLM is organic.
@@dariaschooler Same here. I now attend only the Latin Mass.
Well, to be honest, sounds like you are getting something much closer to what was intended for the differentiated rite by the close of the council in 1965; that's a good thing. Post council, 1965-1970, is when Sacramentum Concilium was purposely mistranslated in its hidden ambiguities'. Taken and read without a "hermeneutics of suspicion" Sacramentum Concilium is a very conservative document. Bugnini, however, had other (unfortunate) plans. God bless.
@marccrotty8447 it would be interesting to see how many Latin masses were poorly celebrated in 1950. I would imagine that a significant number weren't well done. If a priest can't be bothered to do a good NO Mass I guarantee you they wouldn't do a good TLM either.
@@irritated888 Because laxity and minimalism are built into the rubrics of the New Mass and not that of the Old Mass. The amount of power given to the priest in the New Mass as well as the amount of options given to the priest essentially turn the priest into the DJ of the liturgy and when there is no strict regiment to follow and all is left to the priest to decide the whole thing just falls apart into either absurd liturgical abuse or the liturgical minimalism of Saint Typicals. The Old Mass was a strict regiment that demanded reverence and obedience of the priest and did not allow an open door to minimalism even the most laxidacical and lazy of priest had to contend with the fact that there are no options for him to do as he pleases. So one can essentially come to the definitive conclusion that there where no where near as many bad TLM’s in 1950’s as there are bad Novus Ordo’s today.
Why even have the building or the art inside if the NO types believe in just validity? Why even dress formally if all that matters is we show up? No, form expresses love and respect for our Lord, as a Catholic church artist I would never paint a fat dirty dressed Virgin Mother or a laughing joking Christ and no decent priest would accept it. The visual aspect of the liturgy as well as the other senses give importance and most of all beauty to the Mass and to our souls.
Wish you were here...Reminds me of my deceased brother. He loved Pink Floyd. Your poetic ending...inspired me to listen to PF...I'm having a good cry now...
Eternal rest grant unto him O'Lord and let perpetual light shine upon him, may the soul of MRH rest in your peace! Thanks for this soulful moment!
The first mass was in the language of the people
The Apostolic Mass is not simply the Novus Ordo in Harry Potter language. Go check it out and see what you're missing out on.
Had they just translated the Tridentine mass into the vernacular we would be in a more peaceful and likely holier church right now
Maybe so, but I would bet that it more closely resembled the TLM than the NO in content.
No, it wasn't.
@@samuelwalker1410 yes it was
Right on!❤
As someone born in 1967, who grew up in the aftermath & wreckage of the “Spirit of Vatican Two,” so never knew the Extraordinary Form, and has only attended it a couple of times, I agree about reverence and beauty and proper respect in the liturgy of the Holy Mass.
But, your extreme focus on form comes off as if you are putting aesthetics over the Source and Summit of our Faith, the Most Holy Eucharist.
Your use of the WWII photo is most apt. The only thing that matters at Mass is offering up our sins to be forgiven, in the Liturgy of the Word, so that we may receive the ultimate Sacrifice Who paid for our sins, in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
In the mid-‘70s we moved - from a couple of miles from 8 Mile Rd, the Detroit city limits, and our old, stone parish church, St. Mary’s of Royal Oak, with altar rails & beautiful stained glass windows, where I made my 1st Communion - we moved north to new suburbs & new construction. The nearest parish was a mile down the road, not far, fairly new (built in ‘65, I believe) that had a huge, modern, probably bronze, statue of Christ with His arms outstretched…inviting. My mother didn’t like this parish or the priest. Then she found out that the priest who baptized me was going to head the new parish being built on the corner of our subdivision.
Until the construction was finished, Father celebrated Holy Mass inside what would be my future public junior high school, in the multi-purpose (a most overused term in the ‘70s) cafeteria/orchestra pit/ stage area of the school. We went to Mass for about a year there until the church building could be used. When it was, it was the epitome of the “new architecture” of Protestant chic. Dull, orangish-brown utility carpeting throughout the Nave and up the three steps altar, folding walls like those found in a banquet hall in case of overflow, a mix of cushioned & folding chairs, and the Tabernacle off to the right side but visible and still on the altar.
This was always supposed to be “temporary” until the church “proper” would be built, with nice tiled floors, a more elaborately decorated Sanctuary, and pews. The old Nave would become what it was intended: the parish hall. This didn’t happen until the mid-‘90s, because of problems Father had with the archdiocese’s building committee. The parish offices got built first, for some reason. Father was a good and holy man and great friend of my parents, but he went along with what the diocese “experts” taught the parish priests concerning the reforms of V2. He was deferential to the community and allowed contemporary music, or “the band” as we called them. But we didn’t have “clown masses” or any abuses. Father always followed the rubrics.
I say all of this to show that I know of what I speak. Like many my age, I stopped attending Mass after high school, didn’t go to confession for 10 years, then started learning WHY the Church teaches the things I disagreed with, and started to really study the Bible thanks to EWTN & Jeff Cavins & Scott Hahn’s “Our Father’s Plan.” I was about to turn 30, and have been studying ever since.
I can’t blame my withdrawal from the Faith for over 10 years, and all the debauchery I committed, on the Novus Ordo and the Protestantation of the ‘70s & ‘80s Church. It was the culture of the sexual revolution combined with bad catechesis. And bad catechesis was not a product of V2.
My mother was raised in faith by her Polish mother in the ‘40s, ‘50s, and ‘60s, dad only made his 1st Communion. When I would ask my mom basic questions about the faith, sometimes she couldn’t answer and sometimes I would find out later that some answers were wrong. Especially, about the Sacred Scriptures. Mom, Nana, and my aunts were sacramentalized, but not evangelized. I remember one holiday, Easter or Christmas, my mom and her brother arguing about who was the Immaculate Conception, Christ or Our Lady? Mom and my uncle were also the two who did not get divorced, my two aunts did. This was all under the TLM. To contrast & compare, like I said, my dad’s family wasn’t raised in the Faith that much, he & his brother were the only two not to get divorced, his 4 sisters all did. His brother was an atheist.
Focusing solely on the aesthetics of the NO, especially the really bad ones, as the cause of all the Church’s modern ills and pretending that a return to the EF will cure all of Her ills, is living in fantasyland, I’m afraid. The modernist heresies predate the NO & V2 by many, many decades. This includes the priest abuse scandal. Focusing on the NO, calling it barely valid, is like putting a band-aid on finger with a paper cut when the patient has a sucking-chest wound.
My apologies for the extreme length of this post!
Very good arguments
Nice Floyd reference at the end!
Hey! But no available TLM here 😢
GREAT ANALOGY !!!!!
This channel should have far more subscribers
Why settle for less?
Is your Diocese going through "Renewal" right now? Closing Churches and moving Congregants into the surviving Churches?
My last mass, protestant hymns, praying for global warming, gun control, no tabernacle, no kneeling benches, very disappointing.
Something you were saying reminds me of the virtue of piety. The virtue of justice where you can’t give what is due. For example to God and to our country. Like as you say even though we can’t give what God is due, we should give him piety, which should be given in as high as is good
And what if someone finds novus ordo to be much more reverant.
So well said. Could not agree more, although I'm currently forced to attend the Novus Ordo.
I CRINGE when I hear that the Novus Ordo is valid.
Is the New Mass valid? I don't know. To which "New Mass" are you referring? The original Latin text of Paul VI's Novus Ordo Missae? Does that present any obstacle to validity? I don't know that it does, so I'll assume not. What about the official vernacular translations provided by the various national bishops conferences? Well, some may be free of issues and others not. The English version, created by the International Commission on English in the Liturgy, notoriously rendered "pro multis" as "for all". Any first year Latin student would know this was incorrect and did not convey the same meaning as the correct translation, "for many". People complained about this for decades until, during Benedict XVI's pontificate I believe, it finally got fixed. The current version of the Novus Ordo Sacramentary reads "for many", though I've heard a lot of N.O. priests still just say "for all" anyway. So yes, some of the official vernacular translations probably do still have issues that may create obstacles for validity, though I'll grant here they are the exception. Finally you have what is actually going on in the modern Vatican II churches on a given Sunday. Is that valid? The best answer I could give on this is maybe. You might go to one NO church and it is, then go a mile away to another NO church and it's not. The Novus Ordo is given over to laxity and "experimentum ad nauseam" and the NO bishops have proven, at least in the main, that they are unwilling to maintain any sort of discipline in this. You can find "unicorn masses" and feel like it's almost as good as a TLM, and find so-called charismatic "services" so un-Catholic you'll think you've walked into the wrong church. (hint: you did). You'll find everything in between. And the bishops do little to nothing, except where the TLM is concerned. Then, and only then, they can be quick, authoritarian, even abusive to the point of lacking any semblance of Christian charity. Is the Novus Ordo valid? What I would see if I walked into a NO church on Sunday might be. It might not be. As this video made abundantly clear, mere validity is only one consideration. In any event, I don't worry about it. I attend the TLM only.
I'm talking about the NO as celebrated out of the current edition of the Missale Romanum.
@@uscatholicam Right, which says one thing, and who knows what the priest is actually doing, that was my point.
@@jamessauve2419 Yeah, but unless he's really jacking it up BAD, like straight up changing the words of institution, that's not going to affect its validity. The validity of the NO isn't ipso facto questionable; it's only questionable in specific Masses where the priest has altered something to the degree that it no longer conforms with the form of the sacrament.
There are vast theological, liturgical and ecclesiological issues with the NO. Suffice to say, it is not a question of preferring the older forms (which Ratzinger heavily implied was just aesthetics). But of correspondence with The Faith. No one has ever explained by what authority the Roman Missal of 1571 was abandoned. They can't. Because there isn't.
If you translate and use the vernacular of which adherents of the new order claim to be necessary to understand, you can see what they mean. 'New order' has a very different ring to the dignity of 'novus ordo'
This whole fight over the form of the Mass is stupid. If you are spending your time arguing over this one or the other one then you clearly have too much time on your hands.
"Oh dear, those people are stuck in the past and they are not living in the new times!"
"My word, those people hold hands while saying the Lord's Prayer. They are not living the Spirit of GOD."
Both sides need to get a grip, work on their own sanctity, and after they achieved that then and only then can they go out and convert the other.
Then maybe they shouldn’t have changed it in the first place if it doesn’t matter?
@@Deathbytroll
If that is the argument you wish to present then let's go back to the original upper room and reenact the Last Supper that way. Afterall, everything was changed after that and we will know for sure that there is nothing superfluous in that first Eucharist.
@@damienparoski2033 This, but unironically.
@@damienparoski2033 Well, no, you see, you're the one arguing it doesn't matter and that the mass doesn't need anything superfluous. Besides, most traditional catholics want the old mass precisely because they want to work on their own sanctity.
@@thereasonableman2424
Depending on a form of the Mass for your sanctity is like relying on a broken sword for the win in a spelling bee. The two are not synonymous nor strictly symbiotic.
If the argument were true that one needs the tridentine Mass, rich in reverence and pageantry as it may be, to be sanctified then there can never be any holy men or women in most of the world. One can take a simple guess and realize that this is a fundamentally untrue.
One can bring reverence into any mass by their actions, how they dress, and how they present themselves for communion. It is not therefore the sole proprietorship of one form of the Mass or the other. Unless you wish to argue otherwise and in that argument we find heresy.
You still need both for New Catholics and more traditional, more learned and mature Catholics. So you cannot just take away the NO and you cannot just say ONLY TLM. I have meant such holy and humble priests in NO and I would not have met them in TLM.
Novus ordo can be valid but still heretical Some words had to be changed because that had been pointed out
Yet The Pope himself downplays The TLM and those who desire that Liturgy. He calls us rigid and desireius of Grandmother's lace.
Very well put.
We must not let the flame be extinguished. There was no need for The Novus Ordo. All it has done is to destroy what is a perfect Liturgy in The TLM and the honor its devotion gives GOD.
Ultimately the issue at this point is that the traditional Catholic ceremonies are basically meaningless to the average Catholic. You can blame whoever you want for that, but you can't turn back the clock. I'll give an example as I too am a trad if a very sui generis one: I sing in a TLM schola and for some reason our priest uses a missal from the 19th century. For the Assumption, he was saying the old pre-1950 propers ("Gaudeamus") while the schola sang the Pius XII Mass ("Signum Magnum") and no one commented anything or complained, probably because of the people in the pews you could count the people who actually know Latin on one hand (one the priest could barely be considered among them.) (I do understand Latin btw.) You can argue the dignity & pomp of the old rite, but at this point the Mass might as well be in Klingon, with its poetry & symbolism lost to the winds of time unless you have a graduate degree in medieval history. Personally I find the NOM cringe & I avoid it like a bad habit except for weddings & funerals. But you realize then we're not going back, pleasing to God or not. He obviously permits the new rite, whether He likes it is another matter.
We don't need to "go back" because the Church has never left. As Canon Hess used to say, "it is the law of the Church that matters." The Traditional Roman rite has not been abrogated nor can it ever be. That is God's positive will. The fact that He has allowed modernist churchmen to install a Novus Ordo mass is a mystery but the full revelation of Fatima probably has something to say about it. What the people in the pews know is irrevelant, and numbers do not matter to God, who likes to work with a remnant of true believers.
That doesn't preclude work to standardize and reform the parts of the current liturgy: return to altar rails, eliminate eucharistic ministers, standardize the use of male altar servers, eliminate lay lectors or preachers (whatever they are) and, if you're going to translate the Gloria, Agnus Dei, etc., do so in a way that preserves meaning while making it so that it is not awkward to sing. I'd also insist on the use of incense, removal of guitars and modern instruments and make allowance for approved recorded music (as that's better than some of the garbage I've heard from the acoustic army that is found in many parishes).
@@bornbranded29none of this will ever happen
The “average” Catholic doesn’t even criticize or realize the desecrations before them, it’s 60 years of reformation after reformation. In my town the priest sits on the alter while extraordinary ministers administer communion and no one questions it. The only options are novus ordo or Latin mass.
I know it’s not a good response per se but that last part about God’s permissive will is just a bit scary to me in the sense that God permits many things which are not ideal and doomed to fail. The Arian crisis of the 4th century is a classic example
Now that I think about it could it be that the fact that it is a valid mass makes the N.O Mass all the more offensive to God? Because applying this analogy to our own weeding which would still be valid as explained here would make me feel robbed or insulted and that's that we are lowly sinful creatures. Just a thought.
Prelest is so dangerous.
It is not and also not the tridentine mass.
So the novus ordo is not vaild then what am i supposed to theres no TLM in my area
Did you watch the video...
Fr Gregory Hesse says to pray the Rosary with your family. The second Commandment doesn’t say Thou shalt go to Mass on Sunday, it says keep the Lord’s Day holy. Attending Mass is a great way to do that, and actually the most perfect. But in times of emergency, the Church supplies the grace.
Convert to Orthodoxy. The Catholic Church has always believed they have grace in their sacraments, anyways.
The Paul VI Mass is the valid Mass. The Tridentine Mass is not. Arrogance to think one knows more than the Magisterium. Pius XII would have had no tolerance with such blatant disobedience.
Why not compare a Latin Novus Ordo (NO) to the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM)? It seems like you’re comparing strawmen. Sure, many NOs are poorly celebrated-I'd agree as a regular NO attender. But to claim the NO is 'inherently' worse is simply false. A well-done Latin NO, with reverence and tradition, can be very close to the TLM. The problem isn’t the rite itself, but often how it’s celebrated. Comparing a poorly executed NO to a well-done TLM isn't a fair comparison-it’s important to evaluate both at their best.
Because that's not the subject of the video. The video literally mentions the "Unicorn Latin Mass," says that there is something we can say about that, but that it is statistically insignificant because that's not the Mass that 99% of Catholics experience. That's simply not the subject of this video. That will be the subject fo a future video. But even so, you must admit that the reality of the NO is how 99% of Catholics experience it, not the rare Unicorn NOs. Even the Unicorn NOs are inferior to the TLM though, but we will cover this in the future. In the meantime, just accept this video for what it covers and don't discount it for not covering what I did not intend it to.
@@uscatholicam”unicorn NO are inferior to Latin mass” why? That seems like a ridiculous argument. Just be normal dude.
Easier done than said!
Tune in your UA-cam to St John Cantius in Chicago. They do both the the 1962 and 2002 missal liturgies!
@@uscatholicam -- Pride! The bane of the Rigorist.
That’s always what the problem was. Why the change from what was good and holy for 2000 years? There were ulterior motives to making those changes to the Mass. Watch Fr. Cekada’s series “Work Of Human Hands,” or Fr. Hesse’s videos on the topic.
For those who claim that the N.O. is valid, they show how poorly educated and totally blind they are of the most important part of their salvation.
Please examine the actual wording of the old rite vs. the changes in the N.O. - which was developed by jews and protest-ants.
Here are a couple of very important changes which show that Jesus IS NOT PRESENT, as there is no proper consecration, nor a properly ordained priest any longer for that matter (see the same documents for those changes as well).
Jesus said "for MANY" not for ALL, Jesus said "This is the Mystery of Faith - which is where transubstantiation occurs - and it has been moved outside of the Body of the Consecration, thereby also making it invalid. The Words of our Lord MUST be said exactly as He taught the Apostles at the Last Supper. That goes for His Words to ordain priests. You have neither.
I could go on, but this should be enough to lead you to actually educate yourselves on just how duped you've been for 60 yrs. regarding the N.O./Cains sacrifice, as well as the protest-ant like, non-apostolic lineage of the guys who pretend to be priests offering the so-called latin mass at the trad sects. There are a few properly ordained by LeFebvre, but the rest are not. God has allowed these verified freemasons to seize the papacy in 1958 to the present because of the laxity of the laity, and so it continues... with the loss of millions of souls to hell. Do you suppose that this is why He said there would only be a remnant comprised of those who allowed the Holy Spirit to guide them to the church documents showing the horrors of the demons who infiltrated ? We were warned that it would go to the top... so where have you been all of these years?
When Jesus visited church approved Briton Stigmatist Marie Julie Jahenny, He told her very clearly that "this mass is odious in My sight. It was created by My enemies of the first priesthood who crucified Me. Now, I am your Victim, your Confessor, your High Priest... receive your sacraments spiritually... "
And, as God said "My people die from lack of knowledge" so get busy... time is shorter than you think. Yours in JMJ
Whelp. This video helped me make the decision to convert to Orthrodoxy. I didn't know NO priests can marry people outside...
Pity. I thought my confirmation and first eurharist were valid in a Novus Ordo setting, but i guess not.
So that fight from the inside, not the outside. Or you risk your Mass not being valid at all and you end up worshipping mere bread and God rejects you for your uncontested sin of idolatry.
This should be entitled, “But the Latin Rite is still a valid Mass”. You’ve got it backwards. The Novus Ordo Mass is THE Mass, the Latin right is still valid but is not the regular form. Any Catholic knows this. As Catholics we are obliged to follow the teachings of the Bishop. This goes back to the earliest days of the church as St. Ignatius instructed in the early second century, long before Latin became the language of the Church for POLITICAL reasons, “You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop. Let that celebration of the Eucharist be considered valid which is held under the bishop or anyone to whom he has committed it. Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid.” Any so called Catholic who protests the regular form of the Mass is a Protestant. St. Ignatius said it best, “Flee from schism as the source of all mischief”.
I'm would love to see what you have to to say to St Peter when he's asks you why you chose to disobey God Church and his successor. The one charism the devil can't imitate us obedience. Have fun with with having to answer for your pride and disobedience
We don’t answer to St. Peter, we answer to God. Remember, Christ once told him…”get behind me satin”. And also he deniedChris three times…
@@RJ-bu6es your not serious right. does keys to kingdom of heaven, what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, feed my sheep, upon this rock I will build my church sound at all familiar to you..
Certainly the Devil can imitate obedience. Where did you get the idea that he can't? Scriptures tell us that he can appear as an angel of light, and consequently imitate the obedience that angels of light are famous for.
is it a valid mass if the priest celebrating it has doubtful/invalid holy orders? Montini changed the essential form of the sacrament of episcopal consecration circa 1968, what happens when you tamper with the essential form of a sacrament? novus ordo clergy is cooked
The Latin mass is not necessarily more reverent than the NO. It was common for a full tridentine mass to be rattled off in 20 minutes, and for the faithful to be completely oblivious to what the priest was doing before Vatican II. The Latin mass just seems to be far more reverent now because the priests who are still saying it are very traditional.
It's not only about the time or priests.
There's also the actual rite of the mass, wchich was stripped off
The NO did NOT alleviate the clericalism and abuses that the TLM was accused of. There have been and always will be priests (and laypeople) who desire to spend as little time as possible in church on a Sunday (or Saturday if you attend the NO and have that option). Why do you think that the vast majority of priests choose EP2? It’s because it’s the shortest. Why do you think priests want only the four-hymn sandwich for Mass, and vehemently object to chant, especially in Latin? Because with common meter hymns, you can just do two short verses and get on with it. You think there aren’t NO priests who rattle off the Mass and get people out of there in 30 minutes or less, just in time for their pizza to arrive for dinner? There are and I have seen them do it. The abuses of the past are still there. It wasn’t the Mass that was the problem, it was the growing secularism of many priests.
I agree with you that the growing secularism of the priests is the main issue here, I would add that the abuses we see in the NO are more a problem with the way it's being celebrated, not with the NO itself. Communion in the hand, extraordinary eucharistic ministers, guitar masses etc. Are all additions that are not actually promoted in Vatican II. I truly hope these issues will be addressed and ended ASAP. One positive thing about the NO is I believe the average faithful Catholic is more aware of what is going on in the mass nowadays.
@@tomrochfort4582 yes, however, the NO is permissive of these abuses: you can do these things and still say you did it right. You can’t do that in the TLM. By its nature, the TLM was far more protective of its reverence.
@@ClergetMusic I do disagree with you there, if the NO is permissive of these things, then the TLM is permissive of the laity not engaging/understanding the mass, the priest rattling off the prayers and the holier than thou attitude found in many TLM parishes. These are all abuses but neither form of the mass is permissive of these things. I would agree with you if you were to say instead this form of the mass is more prone to this type of abuse.
What is the point of this video. You have not shown at all why Novus Ordo sacraments of Episcopal Consecrations, and Priestly Ordinations are valid. Of course, what you say about more reverent liturgies is correct, the problem with the NO is not irreverence, but validity.
Um…the point of the video is that arguing that the NO is valid (which it is) is not an argument that it’s equal to the TLM (which it’s not)
@@uscatholicam is it really ? How about a show about how it could be with the changes in the ordination rite and all the other sacraments that Bugnini pushed through ?
@@uscatholicamit’s not valid. Wanna debate publicly about this issue?
@@uscatholicamyou are sooo wrong. Too bad you don’t study your theology more before you produce a video. All you gave was your opinion. Listen to Fr. Gregory Hesse, who is a canon lawyer, on the Novus Ordo mass
@@RJ-bu6es uh, Fr. Gregory Hesse makes the exact same argument: NO is valid, but inferior.
'Stop cope' he says. Then BECOME ORTHODOX! No dilution of the Holy Liturgy or teaching on Faith & Morals.
stop coping!!!
☦☦☦
as a Catholic, i admire the Orthodox, in fact i have a great love for the Russian Orthodox liturgy ( nothing wrong with the others) but being Catholic has absolutely become confusing! the NO church is heretical and among Traditionalist each group points fingers at the others! it's so disgusting and disheartening. PAX CRISTI
I’m about as likely to go Mormon as Orthodox lol. It’s one of the least attractive forms of Christianity to me so yeah ain’t happening.
@@uscatholicamI would assume the person who wrote this comment is in their youth.
@@biggatorcaesar Orthodox are confusing, do have liturgy wars and have engaged in finger-pointing. They just aren't as vocal. The true Church is not about liturgy. It is about the TRUE Body of Christ, the true Saints. Those are found in Catholicism, where their triumphs match scriptural prophecy. Pray the Divinum Officium, study the Saints' lives, and you will know what I say is strue.
How would I deal with all of the loose Orthodox women harassing me at the fake service?
I wonder if the laity reacted poorly when their traditional Masses were banned after the Council of Trent.
As most people watching this video are likely aware, no liturgical rites were suppressed after Trent that were at least 200 years old. Thus, only recent innovations were suppressed.
@cheesylisteningobscura8737 Notice I didn't say that all Masses besides the Trentine Mass were banned. 150 years is a long time for people to have had a set liturgy done one way, for someone to apparently arbitrarily demand that it no longer be celebrated.
Look at how many people are now so upset by the NO that they think Christ lied about the Gates of Hell not overcoming the Church.
This is why I no longer go to the novus Ordo Mass:-ua-cam.com/video/MAw8Yj7HxLQ/v-deo.html
I saw the video and I understand your point of view, I only attend the traditional mass but I think it’s important that we fear God and attempt to only make critiques that are more or less bullet proof to not lead souls astray. As such I think it’s important to remember that yes the mass is a sacrifice but in the ancient context a memorial wasn’t a remembrance ceremony it was sacrificial if we were talking about memorials unto a God. The same applies to saying table instead of altar, the altar of a god was called table as well because food was offered there to the god. The critique, and this is where I agree and we can be constructive, is that using those terms now is confusing in light of the fact that the heterdox use those words to mean very different things and so saying them gives everyone the wrong idea. We should be saying altar and sacrifice even though memorial and table are correct terms because the formers are precise
Meh.
The story presented here has nothing to do with Novus Ordo Mass. The priest described here is obviously unfaithful one, and not doing what he should do as a minster of Our Lord, but doing his own thing. He will have to explain what he did when he stands before Our Lord for judgment, and he will sorely regret them. But we know from messages given through present prophets that there are many false priests who infiltrated the Church to destroy the Church from inside. If the pastor of a parish is unfaithful and pushes modern changes, then one MUST leave that parish and find a parish led by a faithful priest. We have entered the time of confusion and suffering of the Church. Be alert and do not follow the modernism which came from Hell. May God bless you and keep you in the True Faith and True Church. Amen!
I’d highly encourage you to research further how the NO “mass” came to be, and WHO was heavily involved in its creation. Everything presented here has EVERYTHING to do with the novus ordo mass.
@@kerry2112 I know many people believe Vatican 2 and Novus Ordo Mass are to be blamed for the problems in the Church we see. But all these problems were caused by the false ecumenism and modernism introduced by freemasons infiltrated into the hierarchy of the Church to destroy the Church and establish 1 world religion for the antichrist. They are the ones blaming Vatican 2 and Novus Ordo Mass, misleading and deceiving people. Now we are very close to the abomination of desolation Our Lord mentioned in Matt 24:15, which will be fulfilled when the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist is denied by a false pope. Then the Great Schism will take place, and the True Church will follow in the foot steps of Our Lord to Calvary, Immolation, and Great Resurrection fulfilling Catechism #675 and 677. Only few faithful remnant will remain with the True Church and will enter the Era of Peace.
"but the Roman will never err"
Brothers in Christ, it's not just the sacraments. The dogmas have been demonstrated false as well.
Do you know where the sacrements are not invalid and there is no contradictions within the dogmas?
The orthodox Church.
The Church that did not add innovations since antiquity.
The Churchythat has no Reformations, neither the Gregorian nor the Vatican 2
The Church founded by Christ in Jerusalem and established by st Pierre in Antioch
Let’s correct your falsehoods 1. The Catholic Church did NOT have a reformation. Those who left are excommunicated and not Catholic. Why would you claim excommunicated heretics are Catholics ?? That just dishonest
2. Orthodoxy is wrong about rebaptism, contraception, the primacy of Peter, the Filioque, divorce, and in their denial of the immaculate conception of holy Mary.
3. Orthodoxy itself is in schism with Greeks, Russian, Ukrainian etc
4. The Catholic Church has not changed Christs teachings. Orthodoxy is a mish mash of jurisdictions which hasn’t even had a valid ecumenical council since about the 700’s
Who converted Indonesia, China, Africa, South America, Latin America, Canada, Japan, Korea, and indeed the whole world?? The one true holy Catholic Church. Orthodoxy was AWOL.
What an absolutely RIDICULOUS analogy!! You should be ashamed.
Boy it ain’t valid
Jesus prayed Peter's faith would not fail. not yours
Novus Ordos don’t actually believe in Christ. It’s obvious by how careless they act.
You sound to me like a pharisee convincing yourself your right, both masses are valid there are also issues with both christ is whats important, i am fortunate i live near a diocesian parish and an sspx priory and church and attend both depending on my work schedule
Relax about condemning one or the other and focus on being a christian with love and charity for all
Sorry, but your intro was so inane that I stopped viewing.
There was never a valid Novus Ordo. A Latin Mass said by a Novus Ordo Presider, is not valid. The Masses said by the FSSP and ICKSP are not valid either!
The Consilium group violated the teachings of at least five popes and one Church Council when they created their New Mass.
It is valid and your rebellious spirit should stop. You are fundamentalists akin to the spirit of protestantism. Most novus ordo masses are performed very respectfully and beautifully. You are the ones that need to stop coping. Repent and submit to the Church.