@@tjzulu1 gmail hid replies but yes, before boretech there was not a efficient way to get barrel clean without very strong and corrosive cleaning agents. Nowdays there is competition to boretech.
Completely agree. I feel like the only take away from this podcast (other than pouring 9lbs of powder on the table) was that solvent is the most critical factor when cleaning. How can you not recommend a solvent?
Great podcast guys! I am a habitual cleaner of my rifles. No matter the round count, they get cleaned after shooting. For me, a clean barrel gives me the consistency of the same starting point each time.
@@GW2964 I can't explain it and moreover I don't care. If it does what yo need it to do that's all that matters....for the rest of my response see my response above.... 👍🏻
Great show. I'm one of those that cleans after every range trip, whether low round count or high round count. Depending on other commitments might have to wait a day to clean but I do clean. Can't wait for part 2, I'm sure hoping you drop a few brand names.
I'm not sure where the "I don't clean" crowd came from but I rock with Dave Knowles, every range session, barrel break-ins, and every hunt. I do have my favorite solvents but why would I let carbon build up or copper fouling get to the point where I have to work my ass off to get it out....I guess I'm old school but common sense is common sense, right? Geezzz, the BR shooters clean between matches! I think some folks better watch Erik Cortina's "Believe the Target" pods, one with him and one with Speedy Gonzales on barrel cleaning...when and how ( tips and tricks).
Thanks guys and congratulations after years of reloading and shooting you just scared the bejabbers out of me and caused me to wonder how I survived this long with out blowing up one of my precious toys or blowing my face off. I tuned in to see if I could pick up some cleaning tips and listened to you explain how much danger I had put myself in while enjoying my sport.
Those cheap Teslong borescopes are the best bore maintenance tool out there. Game changing. Absolutely invaluable. You can see directly and in staggering detail exactly what is happening in your bore. I use it every time I clean now. I used to chase my tail blindly trying to get that final clean patch… now that I can actually see… cleaning is faster and easier and I choose when to stop brushing and patching based on how the bore looks not on how the patch looks. It’s Christmas time fellas… ask Santa for a new borescope!
because brush bristols break off and then are left in your barrel @@Physics072 , best to let the chemicals cleaning solution do the work and then use a patch. Two patches and some brasso and your barrel will be spotless, or you could just continue to believe that your brass brush is actually doing something, doesn't really matter to me though. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss. lol, ☺
Great episode. I think some people tend to think of barrels as mystical objects almost. These objects are made of steel and shoots bullets at thousands of fps but somehow a nylon or brass brush that is way softer than a bullet will destroy this object. That’s kind of an exaggeration but if you step back and think about it scientifically as a small hole in the middle of a tube where you create explosions constantly the need to clean periodically to get those explosion byproducts out makes a lot more sense.
This is great, Putting things into perspective is so important. Now that I am learning this I know so many shooters that do not know this kind of information regarding powders, clearences, bore, rifling depth and shape, progressive twist and other engineering relative to a single shot. Thanks for this, and everyone taking me on this journey, T
I love Hoppes #9. I don't know if it is an effective solvent. The only reason I love it is because the smell of it takes me back decades to the days when my dad, uncle and a good neighbor were teaching me how to reload, shoot and care for a firearm. It is a good memory and a good feeling. It is well known that scents go very deep in the human psyche. However, I could be persuaded to give up my Hoppes habit if I had good information about which direction to go. That is my preface to say that I would really like to know what solvents are actually effective for removal of copper and carbon in your testing and experience. I understand if you don't want to mention brands for various reasons, however it would be helpful to know what ingredients work well without damaging barrel steel. Is it Stoddards solvent, acetone, kerosene, gasoline, or what? I would love to be able to put a rubber plug in the muzzle and fill the barrel with the right stuff, leave it over night and be able to save a lot of brushing and scrubbing. I also am wary that a lot of brushing and patch pushing can cause damage. Thanks for another great discussion. Dr. Quinlan is a gem and deserves a raise.
I use hoppes only for the smell. But I know the solvent works because we use it at work to clean aircraft fuel injectors and that fuel is leaded 100LL and hoppes works really well for that.
In part two please go into the practical aspects of cleaning, especially the solvents. You mentioned ammonia based cleaners, but no specifics other than they do dissolve copper and can damage bores if used improperly. I know there may be some reluctance to name brands, but at least recommend some that are effective. Also, comment on bore brushes, chamber brushes, etc. The vast majority of rifle shooters out there aren't comp shooters and have neither the time or funds to shoot even once a month. They need to know how to care for that rifle as much as the PRS shooter does. Let's have some basics that will benefit even the occasional shooter.
My 308 NATO in my Enfield is very tight an accurate love it. Polished the bolt beautiful and very smooth. It is clean after use an look through my bore scope to make sure it’s like new.
I recently had a rifle built and I bought a Shilen barrel for it. I wondered about break in time so I did research through Shilen barrels and one other manufacturer of custom barrels. What I found was interesting and it showed me most people don't know what they are talking about. It depends on the type of manufacture of the rifling whether it be hammer forged, button rifled or cut rifling. Both companies pointed out to me that most people clean their barrels to often.
Great video. My practice stems from being a NCOIC of a battalion arms room... spotless, clean, clean and more clean. Amazing the abuse of the sectional rods does to those m16s. Military rifles are cleaned everytime they were issued and returned no matter how many rounds were fired. My procedure, I try to use the least amount of strokes in a barrel. Three wet patches of Hoppes after shooting and sat muzzle down on clean pad in the corner. One maybe two wet patches every day until no green. I have a couple of polished barrels that I cryo treated and three or four patches and the fouling is gone. I very very rarely use a bronze brush in them. I use FP10 or 5w20 motor oil when it is clean and back in the rack til next shooting. I will never use a solvent like gun scrubber or the break free because i never want to "dry" out the barrel. Big difference in what i do with Savage barrels and a premium barrel. Amazes me the bores of a Savage and shoots well when the "right" amount of fouling is present. I sure wish those hammer forged barrels and a Rem 788 would come back! I shot a 17 Rem. 20 to 25 rounds and accuracy started to deteriorate. Means going from 1/2" to 3/4 inch and growing. As far as products, two I use is just Hoppes and only when rarely needed, Sweets 7.62. For real rough stuff. I use a jewelers rouge ground up with Hoppes to a paste for hard carbon.
The green rouge is usually what I use to polish the bolts, but I haven’t used it with the cleaner through my barrel, although it does sound like it would definitely clean and polish the inside rifling‘s. Interesting I may do that. Thank you.
Gentlemen, This was good podcast and helped me feel more at ease about my routine. I will be 70 in April and since I was a kid growing up in Vermont and through my years in the Army I was always taught to clean my gun when I was done using it. Now because of all the various sources of information there are, and all the different types of guns and shooting sports being practices, and all the "dogma" surrounding cleaning a gun (not just the barrel), I will on occasion question whether my method is the correct one, which led to me watching this podcast. My method is to clean it when I am done shooting it. Now my "done shooting" varies. It could mean I went to the range shot a 100 rounds and am not going to shoot that same gun for a while or it could mean I am in a class for two or three days and will shoot 800 rds by the end of the course. As long as the gun runs, I am probably not going to clean it until I am done with the course unless I notice the bolt sticking, failure to feed or some other ailment indicative of fouling. Thank you for making this podcast, it definitely makes me feel better about my cleaning routine.
I am adfing another comment after a group i belong to and doing a test between between two factory barreled rifles by cleaning them. One a very rough barrel and one with a pretty rough bore with obvious " drilling" marks. You cant imagine the riff raff of cleaning. I have followed the rule you mentioned of Bartlein, the fewer strokes the best and letting the solvent do its job. Within 6 strokes of wet patches only was clean and the rough one 9 stroke and still copper coming out. Both rifles started out clean barrels. Before i shoot any factory barrel it goes through a process of my own technic of polishing with a very very fine compound i make. Some patching and brushing is done in conjunction with a bore scope. This is done with a fitted jag tip to the patches i use to produce a very consistent "feel" when stroking the bore. I can tell a "tightness" or "roughness" of the bore. When I start I check the dimension of a new barrel with a sleeve of various diameters from a replaceable reamer/throater, ie .2550, .2555 or .2560 for a .264 barrel then throughout the life of the barrel I check it the same way. I never use a water base anything in my barrels. Just plain old Hoppes #9. Very VERY rarely Sweets 7.62 and it is NEVER IN THE BORE OVER 5 MINUTES. There is a big big difference in factory barrel vs premium aftermarket barrels and even among them a finer degree of "smoothness" and consistency. My theory is the smoother the surface and the more lubricity the barrel is in composition the better the outcome in precision and life of the barrel. I cryo treat some of my barrels and I see and feel the difference in a premium barrel. Before any shots are fired the barrel is set with a lubricant in it for a day or two. Some claim to affect the surfsce composition of the metal. I remember my first high performance engine and a GM tech talking to me about the break in oils pupose and effects it has on the camshaft. By the way i have built many high performance engines and know very well the piston ring to cylinder wall relationship. I equate that simularity to the bullet to a barrel. The diffetence being a different composition of materials and many strokes of a ring vs one bullet znd the strokes of you cleaning it. Gee back in the hayday of Varmint Hunters Club some were even using teflon in the there barrels!!! Then the conversations i had with Walt Berger himself and his theories on moly coating bullets. By the way I moly coat my bullets and have ever since. IT works well for my volume and style of shooting and I have found a product and method that takes care of the buildup that occurs quite easily. I test products to the validity of there claims. I was once a marketing rep in a high tech industry and know BS from fact. There is a product I use that came out way back 30 plus years ago. Its claim is to increase the lubricity of the surface. The problem is the flash point is only 500° F. As you stated in your video, processes, products and technics have evolved and the proof is in the data, my data is in the groups I shoot and the consistency of those groups in various barrels. I can say over 60 years of shooting and cleaning your analogy a presentation of this topic is spot on!!! Try convince someone who thinks it is best not to clean their barrels to change is like trying to drive a soft 8 penny nail in hard oak!!! Great video on a "controversial " topic.. lol
103?! Keep ‘em rolling !!! Love these podcasts. J.Q. Is fun to listen to. He needs out on ballistics so purely. Makes it understandable for the average fudd too. Cheers boys!
Always cracks me up when they say "big magnums" and mention the 300 WinMag, etc... while I'm here loading 90+grains into my 300 RUM! :) GREAT Podcast, as usual, Guys! Thank you for the valuable info and insight!
Hi guys thanks for the video. It would really be helpful to know what is a good non ammonia solvent. Saying most of them don’t do what the advertise without saying at least one that does is not helpful. I understand not naming the non performers but I do not understand not naming one that you like. I do love the channel and have learned allot. Keep it coming.
Great sho!!! I'm so crazy must be. I clean every time I shoot my rifle. Never let it sit dirty. My dad told me years ago. Just our way I guess but our rifles always shoot to 1 hole so 🤷
I've built a habit of cleaning after every session. Even if I've shot only 20-25 rounds from load development. I make sure to clean the carbon fouling. When it comes to copper fouling I try to keep track of how many rounds has gone through the tube and clean specifically copper fouling after 250 or so rounds.
Then you need to take into consideration that your groups and velocities don’t settle until 15-25 rounds have fouled the bore. So any data taken from load development done beforehand is worthless.
Being a Hornady "Power-User", like others here, I am a clean-freak as far as my guns go. One shot or 100 - my weapon gets cleaned afterwards. A great product THAT REALLY WORKS is Hornady One Shot. It actually does everything they say & it will & is great on semi-auto actions! Good job Hornady. Keep that ammo coming!
I clean my barrels as soon as I get home from hunting or going to the gunrange. I worked too hard to aquire my rifles to let them go to pot! The usmc pounded keeping our weapons in tip top shape for a damn good reason and I ain't kidding either!
You guys taught me a lot today. Thanks! The example of the police sniper's bullet stuck in the buildup-narrowed barrel was very telling, eye opening (imagine if the case had managed to eject and he tried to fire again). My first experience with this was with a Ruger Super Blackhawk. We'd been firing a lot of 44 Spl without cleaning over several range sessions. Then we decided to run some 44 Mag. Carbon buildup in the cylinder was such that the longer Mag rounds didn't want to seat. (We had sense enough not to force it lest - at a min - they'd get stuck.)
I was in the "why clean if it shoots?" school. I shoot monolithics in my 284win. After a couple of hundred rounds my speed increased and became eratic with 60+ fps ES. I was surprised at how difficult it was to get a wet patch through the first 3-5 inches of the barrel. It took a looooong time to get that barrel smooth again. I look forward to seeing if this reduces the speed and improves the ES.
Keep up the good work. Starting to think of some of your episodes like Myth Busters. Groups are too small, should you clean. Neck tension and tuners should be on deck. 😊. Also, please discuss effective solvents or point us to Matt George's work.
My brother -in-law left his guns with me while he was out of town for several months. Among them was an old 22 semi-auto rifle that he had never cleaned besides an occasional swab down the barrel. I was bored one nigh so I completely tore the rifle down and did a deep clean on every part. Part of that was running some solvent in the barrel to get rid of the really bad fouling. When he came back I showed him what I'd done and he said it operated better than new. He went out and shot it and said the accuracy was better as well. I wonder how many more years he would have shot it without actually cleaning it if I hadn't cleaned it.
I'm a little miffed with them that they left those of us that still shoot .38-55s and .375 Winchesters high and dry by discontinuing their 220 grain flat point bullet.
It's quite funny how culturally different things can be, even when it comes to simple things like gun maintenance. In the German military, we cleaned the guns thoroughly, every single time they were used. Didn't matter if it was just a platoon range afternoon with everyone shooting just 25 or 30 bullets in a couple of drills. And that doctrine has been with me ever since. I have never stored my guns dirty; the most I will ever do is when I'm on a hunting trip, I might put just a clean patch through after a shot, as long as I'll be shooting again in the coming days. If the gun is stored more than a couple of weeks, it's getting a full cleaning before going back in the safe.
It can happen to anyone. Apparently, it can happen to the best. It's an extremely dangerous occurrence for which there can be no excuse, almost always caused by a mental lapse. I saw a video of Erik Cortina on his rifle, talking about and preparing to dry-fire, when he loads a round, and about 20 seconds later, sends a round down range, thinking it was going to be a dry-fire. Thanks for taking responsibiliy with no excuses and sharing your experience.
Interesting debate topic: Lighter cleaning effort done frequently versus heavier cleaning effort done infrequently. Personally, I have found that cleaning after 50rds-ish is easier than cleaning after 250rds-ish. Also… another interesting debate: Cleaning to absolutely spotless versus cleaning to the point of clean-er but not stressing about leaving a light amount of copper in the bore… especially with rough bores that have a lot of machining chatter or pitting in them. I have a running hypothesis that cleaning frequently is beneficial and that leaving a little copper behind in the rougher bores is not detrimental… and perhaps even beneficial. But… always using a borescope to know what is happening… which I feel is essential to doing a good job no matter how you go about it.
Don’t think I heard it, but copper fouling. This was a great presentation to explain PRESSURE. Not only does carbon build up, but copper too. High performance calibers are worse. I can tell you I worked on a rifle (308 Win model 100) that blew mags out and the op rod out of position. This rifle had been shot for over 25 years and cleaned, by an ordnance department. Also, groups spread all over the place. Scope, mounts, NOTHING. I stripped the copper out, straightened the bent receiver bars and all problems solved. Took 92 patches/brush sessions with bore foam that had set in the barrel for 10-15 min each time. Go till the patch lightens to a consistent faint blue/gray. You will then learn when the group starts spreading, do it again. Cheap fix. I wonder how many gunsmiths bought rifles that customers were told ‘shot out barrel’?
I can clean the bore and chamber in my AR in less than 15 minutes. Yawl need to spend less time smart phoning and watching TV. I had to report for duty today at 6:30am. I’m cleaning a gun right now at 10:30pm. Had to get gas on the way home and work on some pet issues when I got home. Already knocked out some brass processing, laundry, and squeezed in 30 minutes of gaming. Better time management folks! I’ll be hitting the sack around 11:30pm. I’m pushing 50 years old.
Well, this sort of discussion becomes religious fast so I will just tell you what I do when cleaning my Mosin or SKS. Keep in mind others swear by other methods and materials but this works for me (here I describe how you would do this for bolt action): Before you go out to the range or hunt, give it a once over as follows. Take the Mosin out, check it as usual for safety and confirm it is not loaded, open bolt. Slide bolt most of the way back, again check to ensure it is not loaded. Hold trigger down and pull bolt all the way back to remove bolt. Using a Hoppes kit, run a dry patch down the barrel once from receiver side. Remove rod and patch. Fully depressing trigger once more, place bolt back on, secure weapon in case, go to range or hunting location. (This step is intended to remove gun oil you had in the barrel following your prior cleaning so that you minimize or eliminate potential barrel deformation from firing with the gun barrel in that state.) In this instance we'll examine a typical range day and assume corrosive primer. When checking in at the range ask the range personnel (if you are at a managed range and not just BLM land) if it is o.k. to pour through barrel a little with your spray bottle to clean when you are done shooting. They will probably say yes. Good, proceed to your station… When you are about to be done shooting but before cease fire is scheduled to be called (check your time depending on the cycles when they call cease fire) fire last round and bring bolt back, check that it is unloaded and stable (use small beanbags or shooter's rifle rest), hold trigger and remove bolt, then, with barrel tilted down, use your Magic Spray to send the spray right down the barrel while you are at the shooting table (see below for Magic Spray ingredients). For me, Magic Spray is at most 10 to 12 percent Simple Green and the rest being warm water, a mixture I prepared in a industrial spray bottle (bottle you can get at Ace Hardware) before going to shoot. You turn the nozzle not to mist but to the solid spray, press it up to the beginning of the barrel where you see it begin from the inside of the receiver, and send a few good sprays right down the barrel while tilting your barrel down to the drainage and brass catching area just ahead of your shooting table (the fluid will run into the gutter out in front of the shooters' area). Have small towel handy so if there is any moisture at the receiver you can wipe it right up. (Wear gloves when cleaning corrosive ammo residue, to protect your skin from toxin absorption.) So instead of shooting you are now sending fluid out the barrel. Use towel to dry muzzle area. Using your Hoppes kit rod, run a dry patch through the barrel from receiver side being careful not to muss inside of barrel with your rod. Here you are removing residual moisture and dirtiness. As you enter it though with the plastic attachment screwed on that holds the dry patch, you would have to do something dumb to make a mistake here. If you timed this right you will still have time for step 6 below before cease fire, but if the range personnel call cease fire, stabilize the gun on the table, put the flag in and step behind the line, wait til cease fire is over to continue if they call cease fire. Follow all range personnel commands at all times. Get a fresh patch and with the patch moistened now with Hoppes #9, run patch down barrel from receiver. This is, a.k.a. Hoppes Bench Rest 9. Do this again with another such patch. Now back to dry patch again. Run dry patches through until patch is clean. You will use a few patches to do this. Saturate a patch lightly with Hoppes 9 Bench Rest Lubricating Oil and run once down the barrel from the receiver side. You are done. Pack it up and go home. When home use your brushes and Hoppes 9 to clean bolt face. Brush metal parts. Clean and check thoroughly. Just before putting back in safe, put gun sock on it or a piece of masking tape over the muzzle. If you like you can use Froglube CLP which I use now and then. Take pride in your work. I recommend obtaining a typical Hoppes Cleaning Kit and Storage Box, appropriate for .308 or for your Mosin (7.62x54r), with a towel and also shown with a FrogLube Complete Weapons Care kit which includes FrogLube Solvent, FrogLube CLP, and brush. The above cleaning regimen can be modified slightly to care for other rifles (SKS, AR platform rifles, etc.) Additional notes: The following additional notes are credited to B.F. Caffrey, who has written about the subject on Quora and elsewhere: “Up through WW-II, most ammunition used corrosive primers. When fired, the chemical salts from the primer would remain in the barrel. Heat & pressure could work these into the steel where they were hard to remove. In the U.S. Army, up through the early 1950s, a thorough cleaning mandated the use of hot water poured down the barrel to dissolve and help remove the salts. You’d clean the gun this way and lightly oil the bore. Then repeat the hot water & oiling for the next two days as the salts could migrate to the surface to cause corrosion. Hoppe’s #9 bore cleaner was invented expressly to combat corrosive salts and remove them chemically, while leaving some protection for the bore behind. As you might guess, it was solution #9 that succeeded in preventing bore corrosion by removing over 98% of the corrosive salts. I have some Korean .30-06 ammo that is likely corrosive ammo in my supply. If I use it, my cleaning procedure for the ‘03A3 is to flush with hot water a few times before cleaning with Hoppe’s #9. The hot water will help “open the pores” of the steel to flush out the salts and following with Hoppe’s #9 will let me get the rest. (A caveat from a chemist shooter: Wear gloves when cleaning corrosive ammo residue. It used fulminated mercury which can be toxic even in small doses and it can be absorbed through the skin.)” Having taken all of these steps above (1-10), you will be able to protect yourself, your Mosin, and your environment, while also cleaning up after having used ammo with corrosive primers.
I personally clean every single time whether it be 5 rounds or 100 rounds not because I want a clean barrel, but more so that the rifle might not be shot for another 6 months. I don't want carbon/copper sitting in my bore oxidizing during that period of time. Also, I've noticed that if you don't allow fouling to build it creates a more uniform surface inside your bore which leads to easier cleaning throughout that barrels lifespan.
I would like for you guys to actually show us your cleaning procedure. And what solvents and or brushes what you use. Bring in a dirty gun and show us the steps. Also I'm sure I'm not alone on another topic. Copper bullets! Cleaning process on getting copper fouling out. And also maybe a separate podcast on shooting Copper bullets then shooting cup and core bullets or vice versa, without cleaning in between.
Eliminating all the variables is more than tough, so in one area I am interested in at the moment for this question relating to solvents would be without naming manufactures: What would the composition (active ingredients) be of an off the shelf cleaner that is safe, top recomended and removes copper. Also copper brush ? or nylon bristle or other polymer brush? Brass brush? Would like to know your use in the lab. Thanks, T
Love this, but I really need a clue regarding a solvent that works, as I don’t have the time or money to test as you have done. Any way we can identify a product that works without you feeling like you’re playing favorites?
Great info, but one thing I would like is more of the "how" vs the "why"... as in what do you look for when you pull a patch through. How do you know when you are done? I know he suggests not using a brush, but for me I can be pulling clean patches out, and then run a brush down once more, the the patches start coming out dirty again... Been just a casual shooter all my life, so certainly not an expert, but have never talked to any experts who gave me warm fuzzies about that! LOL. Hoping you cover more of that kind of thing in the follow on! Thanks! And ETA: If it is good to keep the brush out of the barrel, then I also need to know which solvents you guys have found most effective... Read a few reports, but it is hard to say who is getting paid by who for those reports.
On range days, I typically run a bore snake down the barrels of my hunting rifles after every 10-15 rounds. I've had issues in the past with empty brass getting stuck in the chamber of some of the newer rifles being milled to tighter specs. Plus, logically I feel during a hunting situation most people will be starting with a clean bore in most cases. After range trips, rifles get cleaned before being stored. My firearms are stored in a humidity controlled vault room, so thankfully I don't have rust issues. During hunting season, rifles exteriors get wiped down at the end of the day/hunting period, and barrels get cleaned at the end of the season unless the rifle was used in adverse weather conditions. Those barrels get snaked at the end of the day.
Fouling is well covered. Thanks, got it. What about corrosion from the powder residue? Say, a seasonal 12-round slight-in + 2 shots during deer season... will the barrel be chemically pitted and damaged if it is left in gun safe until next season?
Very interesting podcast. A thought came to me, is there such a thing as cleaning too often? Personally, no matter how many rounds I put through the barrel at the range, I always clean the barrel afterwards.
Agreed. I think firearms are like cars. Take care of them and they will last a long time. Don't take care of them and spend a lot of money replacing them and/or risk serious damage. 😉
The lands and grooves do NOT by default remove anything from the jacket. You can usually measure a shot bullet and it is longer. So it is just squeezed effortlessly. When grooves start to degrage, the voids will start grinding some very small amounts of copper and I think this is what you meant.
Very informative as always, thank you. I understand you not wanting to disparage any solvent manufacturer, but I would really appreciate something like "out of the solvents we've tested, X and Y were effective at carbon or copper removal"... I've tried several, and none seem to work for baked on carbon, and I don't mind cleaning, I just mind wasting my time...
I finish a shoot, or hunt, I clean it if it’s been fired, if I’ve been out hunting, and not shot anything, I’ll still run a patch to clean any dust or debris that have happened down the barrel I was almost taught ‘keep it clean, keep it mean’ and it’s always ready for the next outing without fail
I just do it when I'm done and have the time while Im cleaning the rest of the firearm. Because I don't know when the next time I might be shooting that particular firearm might be. I live in a coastal region so I keep a fine layer of oil in the barrel when it sitting so rust doesn't form (which where I live will happen to unprotected steel within a couple days). Deposits left in the barrel I've found will keep oil from protecting the steel and allow the formation of a pit underneath.
I have a cmmg 22lr conversion for.my daughters AR and she will shoot 400 round and then we put in the 556 bolt and she runs 40 rounds. After going out around 5 times and cleaning it fast each time she started having keyhole shots in the paper. We discovered massive copper build up. You must clean with some good solvents to clean correctly.
Great info as always, but still no real solid answers given on this topic, so I am looking forward to part 2! Should you clean after every session, or after certain round count per caliber? Most shooters are not competitors and don't own or use a chrono. So how do you actually clean to remove carbon rings, stripped copper in lands and grooves, and verify you were successful? Would tipping barrel down and putting a solvent soaked sponge in the chamber be better than just pulling it through on a rod sponge?
I clean my rifle and my pistols after every range visit. Takes me a few minutes, I do the "Colion Noir" cleaning on my AR15 and a quick field strip of my Glocks. It's not about accuracy, for me it is about making sure they continue to be reliable.
Great content and subject, but if your not going to name names on which solvents work best, whats the point? I greatly appreciate these podcasts as I think Hornady's are the best in this industry, and I've wathced most of them, but tell it all please!
Hey guys, I'd love to hear an episode on the external ballistics of lead vs. mono copper bullets. How does the decreased density of copper impact the SD and BC relative similar lead bullets. Can we really get away with a lighter copper bullet because of improved weight retention/penetration? How does the longer for mass copper bullet make you think about twist rates vs. traditional lead bullet twist rates? Finally, as copper bullets improve or are madated, how can we future-proof gun purchases if we may want/be compelled to hunt with copper projectiles? Is this just twist rate? Are there certain calibers that lend themselves to optimal copper performance? For example, should copper hunters gravitate to calibers like the 7mm PRC that already have long for caliber bullets, or should they stick to the .308cals that have lower L/D ratios? Or something else?
Relative Humidity & temperature factors into this discussion... More humid , more dirty ... I was taught everytime you take a firearm out you are responsible for cleaning it when you finish it's use , no matter if you fired the firearm or not.
Hey Hornady, how about putting out some .35 Remington lever evolution. Haven't found any on any shelves or online in 4 years. Found 1 box at a gunshow for $75 .
Im one of the weird bastards who loves cleaning his firearms. I cant get back home fast enough to start. I have never put a dirty gun away & never will
We aren’t talking about not maintaining your firearm, we’re talking about not scrubbing your bore, which will change your POI. Sure, if you take your 30-30 out and want to use some Hoppes #9 every time you shoot (which isn’t doing anything anyways) then go for it. If you want your gun to shoot to the same point of impact when you go out on your hunt, or go out to the competition, you literally don’t want to clean your barrel every time you shoot a few rounds.
great video. I think for the next episode to be effective, you need to highlight your experiences in chemicals/cleaners used. This video shows it's all about the solvents and their effectiveness. Obviously I understand you don't want to bad mouth anyone, but for people to learn maybe list what you found to be the "most effective" in your experiences?
Fine grade steel wool (0000 grade) and JB bore paste on a patch jag will clean carbon and copper amazingly well without much effort. I had a barrel that had so much carbon and copper I thought I would have to replace the barrel. The barrel looked like brand new after cleaning. The teslong bore scopes are amazing and don't cost much at all. Keep this cleaning method in mind also for shot gun sabot plastic and muzzle loading plastic removal.
Here is another thought.... When I get a rifle out of the safe, I run a patch or two of solvent through the bore, followed by a dry patch. I do this to remove oil and theoretically increase first shot consistency. But as an afterthought, does shooting through an oiled barrel leave carbon deposits from the oil itself? Could the residue from the burnt oil cause carbon to build up more quickly?
Any time I did a qual for the AF I could not leave until the range master inspected my firearms for cleanliness and function checks. We only used 45 for zero/warm up and 45 for qual for M4/M16 and M9.
Great job, the data you share on these podcast is great. I have an observation: you seem to use the word "tolerance" when you mean "clearance". My experience: rifle chambers have tighter clearances than the same caliber machine gun chamber. Machining tolerances could/should be identical. Match chamber may have even smaller clearances as well smaller tolerances. This Old guy's 2 cents.
Years ago, my brother bought a used Ruger #1 in .25/06, an accurate rifle to say the least. He was furious when he took it to the range and it kept a 6-8" group at 100 yards. He wanted to sell it, believing the barrel was shot. I told him to first use my Butch's Bore Shine as instructed. After cleaning, all his shots broke the same hole at 100 yards. Montana X-treme is even better. The hunter in me doesn't clean barrels much, as we don't usually shoot the volume necessary to affect accuracy. But the police sniper in me has learned that a clean barrel is an accurate one, especially when inches count.
Depends. If I load my own rounds I won’t clean until I hit roughly 500 rounds. If I shoot foreign stuff I clean it out immediately. I’ve been burned on more than 1 occasion for shooting stuff that says non corrosive on the box, but were 100% corrosive.
Try not cleaning the throat of your 6mm creed bore and watch what happens. I found out what a carbon ring will do in short order when cases started sticking, my FPS jumped and heads were showing pressure signs. Now I think about the bore and throat separately on my fast cartridges. These rifles are treated very differently now from my slower guns. I wonder How many people like me bought a 6mm or similar and didn’t understand how different these are from a .308.?
Do I have to have a clean barrel before switching to copper bullets. In addition can I shoot both lead and standard cup and core and switch back and forth without cleaning.
Ron Spomer did a video in which he reads a warning inside a box of Lehigh Defense ammo. It said:” clean cup$core bullet fouling before shooting this ammo”. I found this to be true the week before by accident. See my other comment to this video.
I clean the barrels on my bolt action rifles after each use. I prefer a foam cleaner. But I never put anything hard down the barrel like brushes or rods. I use 80# monofilament to pull patches from the breach to the muzzle. Then I coat with Rem Oil to prevent corrosion during storage. Prior to shooting I pull a dry patch through the barrel to eliminate excessive oil. When I pull the first patches, the first couple of inches are always tighter, I assume because of carbon deposits. The last patches I pull through are easier and there is no difference in the tension.
Cleaning is a must and I have discovered that a solution of 9 parts of transmission fluid with 1 part kerosene helps keep the barrel. It's like having ball bearings on the bullet. I swab the battle after cleaning. This eliminates a great deal of problems plus the solution creates a seal between the barrel and the projectile which helps stabilize the projectile.... FYI .....
One observation, you had a big pile of powder on the desk, you don't clean unused powder. Light it up and see what is left after the burning. That's what you are cleaning out of the barrel.
I think this might have been mentioned in a Vortex Nation Podcast. A barrel gets to a certain point of being used and dirty from not cleaning, and then it finally gets cleaned properly. However, after the cleaning the barrel has lost its precise nature. Is there anything that can be done to revive the barrel?
Standard Hoppes #9 does little other than remove some superficial carbon and powder. So no, it does very little. If you actually want to remove copper then use Wipeout/Patchout by Sharp Shoot R, or Bore Tech, or ThorroClean, and maybe a little JB bore paste for the last remaining hard carbon.
gentlemen - a very informative video - learned a lot thanks! Why don't you mention the effect of carbon residues being hydrophilic and building acid with the absorbed water creating severe corrosion in the barrel!? Or is that a topic for the next podcast?
I saw this and started watching HOPING that there was a good argument to stop cleaning my barrel. Dang it. You let me down. Im the weird guy that likes sitting down and cleaning after range day. I find it relaxing.
How often would you recommend doing copper cleaning on a hunting rifle? I use shooters choice for each cleaning but how often for something like sweets copper?
Looking forward to part 2 with names of solvents that actually work and schedule. Thanks.
Boretech obviously. It has changed barrel cleaning totally
@@ImNoBSING I'm curious, how did Bortech totally change cleaning?? Maybe I don't shoot enough to be exposed to all the different cleaners.....
@@tjzulu1 gmail hid replies but yes, before boretech there was not a efficient way to get barrel clean without very strong and corrosive cleaning agents.
Nowdays there is competition to boretech.
You can't talk about this and leave out the brand of solvents you guys found effective. Name drop time, boys.
Completely agree. I feel like the only take away from this podcast (other than pouring 9lbs of powder on the table) was that solvent is the most critical factor when cleaning. How can you not recommend a solvent?
Boretech is the gold standard, both in terms of solvents and equipment.
Don't have to put anyone down, just tell us what works.
@@difficult_aardvarktry helmar bore cleaners. Same stuff 1/4 the price, here in Australia anyway
@bruce6099 I'm not really interested in experimenting on 5k guns. I'll stick to what the custom riflemakers reccomend.
Great podcast guys! I am a habitual cleaner of my rifles. No matter the round count, they get cleaned after shooting. For me, a clean barrel gives me the consistency of the same starting point each time.
Same here, it's almost a ritual to return a rifle to the same condition as it was before I started shooting.
That's what Granddad always said go out get dinner and clean your rifle while it's cooking LOL you always got to be ready for prom night
I do the same...always have. I've been shooting and handling firearms since I was 11 years old.....I'm 69 now.....
I don't clean mine and they stack the shot. Explain that.
@@GW2964 I can't explain it and moreover I don't care. If it does what yo need it to do that's all that matters....for the rest of my response see my response above.... 👍🏻
Great show. I'm one of those that cleans after every range trip, whether low round count or high round count. Depending on other commitments might have to wait a day to clean but I do clean. Can't wait for part 2, I'm sure hoping you drop a few brand names.
Right on
@@hornadywhat solvents does Hornady use?
I'm not sure where the "I don't clean" crowd came from but I rock with Dave Knowles, every range session, barrel break-ins, and every hunt. I do have my favorite solvents but why would I let carbon build up or copper fouling get to the point where I have to work my ass off to get it out....I guess I'm old school but common sense is common sense, right? Geezzz, the BR shooters clean between matches! I think some folks better watch Erik Cortina's "Believe the Target" pods, one with him and one with Speedy Gonzales on barrel cleaning...when and how ( tips and tricks).
@@hornady4i5i458
@@hornady where is part 2, did I miss it?
Thanks guys and congratulations after years of reloading and shooting you just scared the bejabbers out of me and caused me to wonder how I survived this long with out blowing up one of my precious toys or blowing my face off. I tuned in to see if I could pick up some cleaning tips and listened to you explain how much danger I had put myself in while enjoying my sport.
Those cheap Teslong borescopes are the best bore maintenance tool out there. Game changing. Absolutely invaluable. You can see directly and in staggering detail exactly what is happening in your bore. I use it every time I clean now. I used to chase my tail blindly trying to get that final clean patch… now that I can actually see… cleaning is faster and easier and I choose when to stop brushing and patching based on how the bore looks not on how the patch looks. It’s Christmas time fellas… ask Santa for a new borescope!
Those bore scopes are awesome. Made me appreciate the details in different barrels and manufacturers
they about $127?
you shouldn't use a brush.
@@investigativeoutcomes9343 Why not use a brush? Do you not brush your teeth?
because brush bristols break off and then are left in your barrel @@Physics072 , best to let the chemicals cleaning solution do the work and then use a patch. Two patches and some brasso and your barrel will be spotless, or you could just continue to believe that your brass brush is actually doing something, doesn't really matter to me though. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss. lol, ☺
I appreciate Hornady for their hard work and keeping their ammunition fairly priced. Your bullets are awesome.
Another Quinlan's corner! Keep 'em coming!
I understand not disclosing names for the solvents that aren't as good but it would be nice to hear which ones actually worked for you guys.
And we’re still waiting. Instead, we get episodes about 25-06, 30-06 and the 270z.
Great episode. I think some people tend to think of barrels as mystical objects almost. These objects are made of steel and shoots bullets at thousands of fps but somehow a nylon or brass brush that is way softer than a bullet will destroy this object. That’s kind of an exaggeration but if you step back and think about it scientifically as a small hole in the middle of a tube where you create explosions constantly the need to clean periodically to get those explosion byproducts out makes a lot more sense.
This is great, Putting things into perspective is so important. Now that I am learning this I know so many shooters that do not know this kind of information regarding powders, clearences, bore, rifling depth and shape, progressive twist and other engineering relative to a single shot. Thanks for this, and everyone taking me on this journey, T
I love Hoppes #9. I don't know if it is an effective solvent. The only reason I love it is because the smell of it takes me back decades to the days when my dad, uncle and a good neighbor were teaching me how to reload, shoot and care for a firearm. It is a good memory and a good feeling. It is well known that scents go very deep in the human psyche. However, I could be persuaded to give up my Hoppes habit if I had good information about which direction to go.
That is my preface to say that I would really like to know what solvents are actually effective for removal of copper and carbon in your testing and experience. I understand if you don't want to mention brands for various reasons, however it would be helpful to know what ingredients work well without damaging barrel steel. Is it Stoddards solvent, acetone, kerosene, gasoline, or what? I would love to be able to put a rubber plug in the muzzle and fill the barrel with the right stuff, leave it over night and be able to save a lot of brushing and scrubbing. I also am wary that a lot of brushing and patch pushing can cause damage.
Thanks for another great discussion. Dr. Quinlan is a gem and deserves a raise.
I love the smell of Hoppe's #9 as well. I thought it was just me.
I thought Hoppes was a cologne????
A shared experience for a million boys across America lol. I use kroil or CLP for routine cleaning when copper isn’t an issue.
Hoppes #9. If my grandfather hadn't used it I might not be here!!!! Real men use Hoppes!!! Lol
I use hoppes only for the smell. But I know the solvent works because we use it at work to clean aircraft fuel injectors and that fuel is leaded 100LL and hoppes works really well for that.
Absolutely excellent pod cast! So much information. Thank you. Looking forward to part 2!
In part two please go into the practical aspects of cleaning, especially the solvents. You mentioned ammonia based cleaners, but no specifics other than they do dissolve copper and can damage bores if used improperly. I know there may be some reluctance to name brands, but at least recommend some that are effective. Also, comment on bore brushes, chamber brushes, etc. The vast majority of rifle shooters out there aren't comp shooters and have neither the time or funds to shoot even once a month. They need to know how to care for that rifle as much as the PRS shooter does. Let's have some basics that will benefit even the occasional shooter.
My 308 NATO in my Enfield is very tight an accurate love it. Polished the bolt beautiful and very smooth. It is clean after use an look through my bore scope to make sure it’s like new.
I recently had a rifle built and I bought a Shilen barrel for it. I wondered about break in time so I did research through Shilen barrels and one other manufacturer of custom barrels. What I found was interesting and it showed me most people don't know what they are talking about. It depends on the type of manufacture of the rifling whether it be hammer forged, button rifled or cut rifling. Both companies pointed out to me that most people clean their barrels to often.
Oh yeah, this is gonna be a good one!!!
Do we need to strip copper out our barrel to start shooting CX bullets?
Hoping Hornady answers this question as well
Me too. Answers please!!
Why would you need to strip the copper from the barrel to shoot a copper bullet? Genuinely don't understand your question.
@@tylerthorson7798 lehigh defense recommends to strip copper from bore before shooting their solid copper bullets
@@tylerthorson7798 I agree but, I can’t argue with results. See my other comment.
Waiting Episode 2 of this Topic!
Thank you, another very interesting Podcast.
Thanks for listening
Great video. My practice stems from being a NCOIC of a battalion arms room... spotless, clean, clean and more clean. Amazing the abuse of the sectional rods does to those m16s. Military rifles are cleaned everytime they were issued and returned no matter how many rounds were fired.
My procedure, I try to use the least amount of strokes in a barrel. Three wet patches of Hoppes after shooting and sat muzzle down on clean pad in the corner. One maybe two wet patches every day until no green. I have a couple of polished barrels that I cryo treated and three or four patches and the fouling is gone. I very very rarely use a bronze brush in them. I use FP10 or 5w20 motor oil when it is clean and back in the rack til next shooting. I will never use a solvent like gun scrubber or the break free because i never want to "dry" out the barrel.
Big difference in what i do with Savage barrels and a premium barrel. Amazes me the bores of a Savage and shoots well when the "right" amount of fouling is present. I sure wish those hammer forged barrels and a Rem 788 would come back!
I shot a 17 Rem. 20 to 25 rounds and accuracy started to deteriorate. Means going from 1/2" to 3/4 inch and growing.
As far as products, two I use is just Hoppes and only when rarely needed, Sweets 7.62. For real rough stuff. I use a jewelers rouge ground up with Hoppes to a paste for hard carbon.
The green rouge is usually what I use to polish the bolts, but I haven’t used it with the cleaner through my barrel, although it does sound like it would definitely clean and polish the inside rifling‘s. Interesting I may do that. Thank you.
Thank you. Looking forward to the next episode. Would really like to hear your solvent recommendations, however.
Gentlemen, This was good podcast and helped me feel more at ease about my routine. I will be 70 in April and since I was a kid growing up in Vermont and through my years in the Army I was always taught to clean my gun when I was done using it. Now because of all the various sources of information there are, and all the different types of guns and shooting sports being practices, and all the "dogma" surrounding cleaning a gun (not just the barrel), I will on occasion question whether my method is the correct one, which led to me watching this podcast. My method is to clean it when I am done shooting it. Now my "done shooting" varies. It could mean I went to the range shot a 100 rounds and am not going to shoot that same gun for a while or it could mean I am in a class for two or three days and will shoot 800 rds by the end of the course. As long as the gun runs, I am probably not going to clean it until I am done with the course unless I notice the bolt sticking, failure to feed or some other ailment indicative of fouling. Thank you for making this podcast, it definitely makes me feel better about my cleaning routine.
I am adfing another comment after a group i belong to and doing a test between between two factory barreled rifles by cleaning them. One a very rough barrel and one with a pretty rough bore with obvious " drilling" marks.
You cant imagine the riff raff of cleaning. I have followed the rule you mentioned of Bartlein, the fewer strokes the best and letting the solvent do its job. Within 6 strokes of wet patches only was clean and the rough one 9 stroke and still copper coming out. Both rifles started out clean barrels. Before i shoot any factory barrel it goes through a process of my own technic of polishing with a very very fine compound i make. Some patching and brushing is done in conjunction with a bore scope. This is done with a fitted jag tip to the patches i use to produce a very consistent "feel" when stroking the bore. I can tell a "tightness" or "roughness" of the bore. When I start I check the dimension of a new barrel with a sleeve of various diameters from a replaceable reamer/throater, ie .2550, .2555 or .2560 for a .264 barrel then throughout the life of the barrel I check it the same way. I never use a water base anything in my barrels. Just plain old Hoppes #9. Very VERY rarely Sweets 7.62 and it is NEVER IN THE BORE OVER 5 MINUTES.
There is a big big difference in factory barrel vs premium aftermarket barrels and even among them a finer degree of "smoothness" and consistency.
My theory is the smoother the surface and the more lubricity the barrel is in composition the better the outcome in precision and life of the barrel. I cryo treat some of my barrels and I see and feel the difference in a premium barrel. Before any shots are fired the barrel is set with a lubricant in it for a day or two. Some claim to affect the surfsce composition of the metal. I remember my first high performance engine and a GM tech talking to me about the break in oils pupose and effects it has on the camshaft. By the way i have built many high performance engines and know very well the piston ring to cylinder wall relationship. I equate that simularity to the bullet to a barrel. The diffetence being a different composition of materials and many strokes of a ring vs one bullet znd the strokes of you cleaning it. Gee back in the hayday of Varmint Hunters Club some were even using teflon in the there barrels!!! Then the conversations i had with Walt Berger himself and his theories on moly coating bullets. By the way I moly coat my bullets and have ever since. IT works well for my volume and style of shooting and I have found a product and method that takes care of the buildup that occurs quite easily. I test products to the validity of there claims. I was once a marketing rep in a high tech industry and know BS from fact.
There is a product I use that came out way back 30 plus years ago. Its claim is to increase the lubricity of the surface. The problem is the flash point is only 500° F. As you stated in your video, processes, products and technics have evolved and the proof is in the data, my data is in the groups I shoot and the consistency of those groups in various barrels. I can say over 60 years of shooting and cleaning your analogy a presentation of this topic is spot on!!! Try convince someone who thinks it is best not to clean their barrels to change is like trying to drive a soft 8 penny nail in hard oak!!!
Great video on a "controversial " topic.. lol
Wow. That made me think. Had no idea to link the case charge mass of powder to the number of cases fired. Cheers Guys, Brilliant.
103?! Keep ‘em rolling !!! Love these podcasts. J.Q. Is fun to listen to. He needs out on ballistics so purely. Makes it understandable for the average fudd too. Cheers boys!
Thanks for listening
Always cracks me up when they say "big magnums" and mention the 300 WinMag, etc... while I'm here loading 90+grains into my 300 RUM! :)
GREAT Podcast, as usual, Guys! Thank you for the valuable info and insight!
Hi guys thanks for the video. It would really be helpful to know what is a good non ammonia solvent. Saying most of them don’t do what the advertise without saying at least one that does is not helpful. I understand not naming the non performers but I do not understand not naming one that you like. I do love the channel and have learned allot. Keep it coming.
Great discussion. Bring on part 2 gentleman!
Thank you for the well presented information!!
Great sho!!! I'm so crazy must be. I clean every time I shoot my rifle. Never let it sit dirty. My dad told me years ago. Just our way I guess but our rifles always shoot to 1 hole so 🤷
I've built a habit of cleaning after every session. Even if I've shot only 20-25 rounds from load development. I make sure to clean the carbon fouling. When it comes to copper fouling I try to keep track of how many rounds has gone through the tube and clean specifically copper fouling after 250 or so rounds.
I do same exact thing
Then you need to take into consideration that your groups and velocities don’t settle until 15-25 rounds have fouled the bore. So any data taken from load development done beforehand is worthless.
Being a Hornady "Power-User", like others here, I am a clean-freak as far as my guns go. One shot or 100 - my weapon gets cleaned afterwards.
A great product THAT REALLY WORKS is Hornady One Shot. It actually does everything they say & it will & is great on semi-auto actions! Good job Hornady. Keep that ammo coming!
How do you know when it is "clean"?
I clean my barrels as soon as I get home from hunting or going to the gunrange. I worked too hard to aquire my rifles to let them go to pot! The usmc pounded keeping our weapons in tip top shape for a damn good reason and I ain't kidding either!
You guys taught me a lot today. Thanks!
The example of the police sniper's bullet stuck in the buildup-narrowed barrel was very telling, eye opening (imagine if the case had managed to eject and he tried to fire again).
My first experience with this was with a Ruger Super Blackhawk. We'd been firing a lot of 44 Spl without cleaning over several range sessions. Then we decided to run some 44 Mag. Carbon buildup in the cylinder was such that the longer Mag rounds didn't want to seat. (We had sense enough not to force it lest - at a min - they'd get stuck.)
I was in the "why clean if it shoots?" school. I shoot monolithics in my 284win. After a couple of hundred rounds my speed increased and became eratic with 60+ fps ES. I was surprised at how difficult it was to get a wet patch through the first 3-5 inches of the barrel. It took a looooong time to get that barrel smooth again. I look forward to seeing if this reduces the speed and improves the ES.
Great information - thanks very much for this.
Keep up the good work. Starting to think of some of your episodes like Myth Busters. Groups are too small, should you clean. Neck tension and tuners should be on deck. 😊. Also, please discuss effective solvents or point us to Matt George's work.
Looking forward to part two 👍
Us too!
Cleaning solution recommendations please!
My brother -in-law left his guns with me while he was out of town for several months. Among them was an old 22 semi-auto rifle that he had never cleaned besides an occasional swab down the barrel. I was bored one nigh so I completely tore the rifle down and did a deep clean on every part. Part of that was running some solvent in the barrel to get rid of the really bad fouling.
When he came back I showed him what I'd done and he said it operated better than new. He went out and shot it and said the accuracy was better as well.
I wonder how many more years he would have shot it without actually cleaning it if I hadn't cleaned it.
A little long video but very informative. Love Hornady ammo. Use Critical Defense for my EDC, and Match for my 6.5 creedmoor, and 5.56.
I'm a little miffed with them that they left those of us that still shoot .38-55s and .375 Winchesters high and dry by discontinuing their 220 grain flat point bullet.
Very needed podcast!
It's quite funny how culturally different things can be, even when it comes to simple things like gun maintenance. In the German military, we cleaned the guns thoroughly, every single time they were used. Didn't matter if it was just a platoon range afternoon with everyone shooting just 25 or 30 bullets in a couple of drills.
And that doctrine has been with me ever since. I have never stored my guns dirty; the most I will ever do is when I'm on a hunting trip, I might put just a clean patch through after a shot, as long as I'll be shooting again in the coming days. If the gun is stored more than a couple of weeks, it's getting a full cleaning before going back in the safe.
I clean mine after hunting season. I go out target and sighting in twice a year before hunting... Rince and repeat. Works for me.
Learned a ton of knowledge
It can happen to anyone. Apparently, it can happen to the best. It's an extremely dangerous occurrence for which there can be no excuse, almost always caused by a mental lapse. I saw a video of Erik Cortina on his rifle, talking about and preparing to dry-fire, when he loads a round, and about 20 seconds later, sends a round down range, thinking it was going to be a dry-fire. Thanks for taking responsibiliy with no excuses and sharing your experience.
I have a Beretta 92FS 9mm. I keep it clean always inside an out. Eats every ammo I put in it without any issues. Same with all.
Interesting debate topic:
Lighter cleaning effort done frequently versus heavier cleaning effort done infrequently.
Personally, I have found that cleaning after 50rds-ish is easier than cleaning after 250rds-ish.
Also… another interesting debate: Cleaning to absolutely spotless versus cleaning to the point of clean-er but not stressing about leaving a light amount of copper in the bore… especially with rough bores that have a lot of machining chatter or pitting in them.
I have a running hypothesis that cleaning frequently is beneficial and that leaving a little copper behind in the rougher bores is not detrimental… and perhaps even beneficial.
But… always using a borescope to know what is happening… which I feel is essential to doing a good job no matter how you go about it.
Definitely interested in the “ how to”. Appreciate the information and visual aids!
Don’t think I heard it, but copper fouling. This was a great presentation to explain PRESSURE. Not only does carbon build up, but copper too. High performance calibers are worse. I can tell you I worked on a rifle (308 Win model 100) that blew mags out and the op rod out of position. This rifle had been shot for over 25 years and cleaned, by an ordnance department. Also, groups spread all over the place. Scope, mounts, NOTHING. I stripped the copper out, straightened the bent receiver bars and all problems solved. Took 92 patches/brush sessions with bore foam that had set in the barrel for 10-15 min each time. Go till the patch lightens to a consistent faint blue/gray. You will then learn when the group starts spreading, do it again. Cheap fix. I wonder how many gunsmiths bought rifles that customers were told ‘shot out barrel’?
I can clean the bore and chamber in my AR in less than 15 minutes. Yawl need to spend less time smart phoning and watching TV. I had to report for duty today at 6:30am. I’m cleaning a gun right now at 10:30pm. Had to get gas on the way home and work on some pet issues when I got home. Already knocked out some brass processing, laundry, and squeezed in 30 minutes of gaming. Better time management folks! I’ll be hitting the sack around 11:30pm. I’m pushing 50 years old.
Well, this sort of discussion becomes religious fast so I will just tell you what I do when cleaning my Mosin or SKS. Keep in mind others swear by other methods and materials but this works for me (here I describe how you would do this for bolt action):
Before you go out to the range or hunt, give it a once over as follows. Take the Mosin out, check it as usual for safety and confirm it is not loaded, open bolt. Slide bolt most of the way back, again check to ensure it is not loaded. Hold trigger down and pull bolt all the way back to remove bolt. Using a Hoppes kit, run a dry patch down the barrel once from receiver side. Remove rod and patch. Fully depressing trigger once more, place bolt back on, secure weapon in case, go to range or hunting location. (This step is intended to remove gun oil you had in the barrel following your prior cleaning so that you minimize or eliminate potential barrel deformation from firing with the gun barrel in that state.)
In this instance we'll examine a typical range day and assume corrosive primer. When checking in at the range ask the range personnel (if you are at a managed range and not just BLM land) if it is o.k. to pour through barrel a little with your spray bottle to clean when you are done shooting. They will probably say yes. Good, proceed to your station…
When you are about to be done shooting but before cease fire is scheduled to be called (check your time depending on the cycles when they call cease fire) fire last round and bring bolt back, check that it is unloaded and stable (use small beanbags or shooter's rifle rest), hold trigger and remove bolt, then, with barrel tilted down, use your Magic Spray to send the spray right down the barrel while you are at the shooting table (see below for Magic Spray ingredients).
For me, Magic Spray is at most 10 to 12 percent Simple Green and the rest being warm water, a mixture I prepared in a industrial spray bottle (bottle you can get at Ace Hardware) before going to shoot. You turn the nozzle not to mist but to the solid spray, press it up to the beginning of the barrel where you see it begin from the inside of the receiver, and send a few good sprays right down the barrel while tilting your barrel down to the drainage and brass catching area just ahead of your shooting table (the fluid will run into the gutter out in front of the shooters' area). Have small towel handy so if there is any moisture at the receiver you can wipe it right up. (Wear gloves when cleaning corrosive ammo residue, to protect your skin from toxin absorption.) So instead of shooting you are now sending fluid out the barrel. Use towel to dry muzzle area.
Using your Hoppes kit rod, run a dry patch through the barrel from receiver side being careful not to muss inside of barrel with your rod. Here you are removing residual moisture and dirtiness. As you enter it though with the plastic attachment screwed on that holds the dry patch, you would have to do something dumb to make a mistake here. If you timed this right you will still have time for step 6 below before cease fire, but if the range personnel call cease fire, stabilize the gun on the table, put the flag in and step behind the line, wait til cease fire is over to continue if they call cease fire. Follow all range personnel commands at all times.
Get a fresh patch and with the patch moistened now with Hoppes #9, run patch down barrel from receiver. This is, a.k.a. Hoppes Bench Rest 9. Do this again with another such patch.
Now back to dry patch again. Run dry patches through until patch is clean. You will use a few patches to do this.
Saturate a patch lightly with Hoppes 9 Bench Rest Lubricating Oil and run once down the barrel from the receiver side. You are done. Pack it up and go home.
When home use your brushes and Hoppes 9 to clean bolt face. Brush metal parts. Clean and check thoroughly. Just before putting back in safe, put gun sock on it or a piece of masking tape over the muzzle. If you like you can use Froglube CLP which I use now and then.
Take pride in your work.
I recommend obtaining a typical Hoppes Cleaning Kit and Storage Box, appropriate for .308 or for your Mosin (7.62x54r), with a towel and also shown with a FrogLube Complete Weapons Care kit which includes FrogLube Solvent, FrogLube CLP, and brush. The above cleaning regimen can be modified slightly to care for other rifles (SKS, AR platform rifles, etc.)
Additional notes: The following additional notes are credited to B.F. Caffrey, who has written about the subject on Quora and elsewhere:
“Up through WW-II, most ammunition used corrosive primers. When fired, the chemical salts from the primer would remain in the barrel. Heat & pressure could work these into the steel where they were hard to remove. In the U.S. Army, up through the early 1950s, a thorough cleaning mandated the use of hot water poured down the barrel to dissolve and help remove the salts. You’d clean the gun this way and lightly oil the bore. Then repeat the hot water & oiling for the next two days as the salts could migrate to the surface to cause corrosion.
Hoppe’s #9 bore cleaner was invented expressly to combat corrosive salts and remove them chemically, while leaving some protection for the bore behind. As you might guess, it was solution #9 that succeeded in preventing bore corrosion by removing over 98% of the corrosive salts.
I have some Korean .30-06 ammo that is likely corrosive ammo in my supply. If I use it, my cleaning procedure for the ‘03A3 is to flush with hot water a few times before cleaning with Hoppe’s #9. The hot water will help “open the pores” of the steel to flush out the salts and following with Hoppe’s #9 will let me get the rest.
(A caveat from a chemist shooter: Wear gloves when cleaning corrosive ammo residue. It used fulminated mercury which can be toxic even in small doses and it can be absorbed through the skin.)”
Having taken all of these steps above (1-10), you will be able to protect yourself, your Mosin, and your environment, while also cleaning up after having used ammo with corrosive primers.
I personally clean every single time whether it be 5 rounds or 100 rounds not because I want a clean barrel, but more so that the rifle might not be shot for another 6 months. I don't want carbon/copper sitting in my bore oxidizing during that period of time. Also, I've noticed that if you don't allow fouling to build it creates a more uniform surface inside your bore which leads to easier cleaning throughout that barrels lifespan.
I would like for you guys to actually show us your cleaning procedure. And what solvents and or brushes what you use. Bring in a dirty gun and show us the steps.
Also I'm sure I'm not alone on another topic. Copper bullets! Cleaning process on getting copper fouling out.
And also maybe a separate podcast on shooting Copper bullets then shooting cup and core bullets or vice versa, without cleaning in between.
Erik Cortina did a detailed video on his cleaning strategy with borsescope results
Eliminating all the variables is more than tough, so in one area I am interested in at the moment for this question relating to solvents would be without naming manufactures: What would the composition (active ingredients) be of an off the shelf cleaner that is safe, top recomended and removes copper. Also copper brush ? or nylon bristle or other polymer brush? Brass brush? Would like to know your use in the lab. Thanks, T
Love this, but I really need a clue regarding a solvent that works, as I don’t have the time or money to test as you have done. Any way we can identify a product that works without you feeling like you’re playing favorites?
Great info, but one thing I would like is more of the "how" vs the "why"... as in what do you look for when you pull a patch through. How do you know when you are done? I know he suggests not using a brush, but for me I can be pulling clean patches out, and then run a brush down once more, the the patches start coming out dirty again... Been just a casual shooter all my life, so certainly not an expert, but have never talked to any experts who gave me warm fuzzies about that! LOL. Hoping you cover more of that kind of thing in the follow on! Thanks! And ETA: If it is good to keep the brush out of the barrel, then I also need to know which solvents you guys have found most effective... Read a few reports, but it is hard to say who is getting paid by who for those reports.
On range days, I typically run a bore snake down the barrels of my hunting rifles after every 10-15 rounds. I've had issues in the past with empty brass getting stuck in the chamber of some of the newer rifles being milled to tighter specs. Plus, logically I feel during a hunting situation most people will be starting with a clean bore in most cases. After range trips, rifles get cleaned before being stored. My firearms are stored in a humidity controlled vault room, so thankfully I don't have rust issues. During hunting season, rifles exteriors get wiped down at the end of the day/hunting period, and barrels get cleaned at the end of the season unless the rifle was used in adverse weather conditions. Those barrels get snaked at the end of the day.
i use soft scrub, heavy metal Windex with ammonia, alchol or acetone between, Ballistol last. i live in Florida
Thank you for taking the time to inform us.
You bet!
Fouling is well covered. Thanks, got it. What about corrosion from the powder residue? Say, a seasonal 12-round slight-in + 2 shots during deer season... will the barrel be chemically pitted and damaged if it is left in gun safe until next season?
No
Very interesting podcast. A thought came to me, is there such a thing as cleaning too often? Personally, no matter how many rounds I put through the barrel at the range, I always clean the barrel afterwards.
i do not understand why people say,, don't even own a cleaning - rod .if i shoot ,,,i clean ! PROPERLY .
Agreed. I think firearms are like cars. Take care of them and they will last a long time. Don't take care of them and spend a lot of money replacing them and/or risk serious damage. 😉
The lands and grooves do NOT by default remove anything from the jacket. You can usually measure a shot bullet and it is longer. So it is just squeezed effortlessly.
When grooves start to degrage, the voids will start grinding some very small amounts of copper and I think this is what you meant.
Very informative as always, thank you. I understand you not wanting to disparage any solvent manufacturer, but I would really appreciate something like "out of the solvents we've tested, X and Y were effective at carbon or copper removal"... I've tried several, and none seem to work for baked on carbon, and I don't mind cleaning, I just mind wasting my time...
I finish a shoot, or hunt, I clean it if it’s been fired, if I’ve been out hunting, and not shot anything, I’ll still run a patch to clean any dust or debris that have happened down the barrel
I was almost taught ‘keep it clean, keep it mean’ and it’s always ready for the next outing without fail
I just do it when I'm done and have the time while Im cleaning the rest of the firearm. Because I don't know when the next time I might be shooting that particular firearm might be. I live in a coastal region so I keep a fine layer of oil in the barrel when it sitting so rust doesn't form (which where I live will happen to unprotected steel within a couple days). Deposits left in the barrel I've found will keep oil from protecting the steel and allow the formation of a pit underneath.
I have a cmmg 22lr conversion for.my daughters AR and she will shoot 400 round and then we put in the 556 bolt and she runs 40 rounds. After going out around 5 times and cleaning it fast each time she started having keyhole shots in the paper. We discovered massive copper build up. You must clean with some good solvents to clean correctly.
Nice NRL Hunter coffee cup!
Thank you from Florida
Thanks for watching!
Great info as always, but still no real solid answers given on this topic, so I am looking forward to part 2! Should you clean after every session, or after certain round count per caliber? Most shooters are not competitors and don't own or use a chrono. So how do you actually clean to remove carbon rings, stripped copper in lands and grooves, and verify you were successful? Would tipping barrel down and putting a solvent soaked sponge in the chamber be better than just pulling it through on a rod sponge?
I clean my rifle and my pistols after every range visit. Takes me a few minutes, I do the "Colion Noir" cleaning on my AR15 and a quick field strip of my Glocks. It's not about accuracy, for me it is about making sure they continue to be reliable.
After range time, I break down my handguns and apply Hoppes to all surfaces and allow them to sit for hours before I start to clean them.
Great content and subject, but if your not going to name names on which solvents work best, whats the point? I greatly appreciate these podcasts as I think Hornady's are the best in this industry, and I've wathced most of them, but tell it all please!
There will be a part 2
Hey guys,
I'd love to hear an episode on the external ballistics of lead vs. mono copper bullets. How does the decreased density of copper impact the SD and BC relative similar lead bullets. Can we really get away with a lighter copper bullet because of improved weight retention/penetration? How does the longer for mass copper bullet make you think about twist rates vs. traditional lead bullet twist rates? Finally, as copper bullets improve or are madated, how can we future-proof gun purchases if we may want/be compelled to hunt with copper projectiles? Is this just twist rate? Are there certain calibers that lend themselves to optimal copper performance? For example, should copper hunters gravitate to calibers like the 7mm PRC that already have long for caliber bullets, or should they stick to the .308cals that have lower L/D ratios? Or something else?
Relative Humidity & temperature factors into this discussion... More humid , more dirty ... I was taught everytime you take a firearm out you are responsible for cleaning it when you finish it's use , no matter if you fired the firearm or not.
Hey Hornady, how about putting out some .35 Remington lever evolution. Haven't found any on any shelves or online in 4 years. Found 1 box at a gunshow for $75 .
Im one of the weird bastards who loves cleaning his firearms. I cant get back home fast enough to start. I have never put a dirty gun away & never will
This guy gets it!
We aren’t talking about not maintaining your firearm, we’re talking about not scrubbing your bore, which will change your POI.
Sure, if you take your 30-30 out and want to use some Hoppes #9 every time you shoot (which isn’t doing anything anyways) then go for it.
If you want your gun to shoot to the same point of impact when you go out on your hunt, or go out to the competition, you literally don’t want to clean your barrel every time you shoot a few rounds.
Now I'm curious which solvents they tested.
At the beginning of the video there was a comparison to a toilet bowl and cleaning it. I think it's a great metaphor after which to argue.
great video. I think for the next episode to be effective, you need to highlight your experiences in chemicals/cleaners used. This video shows it's all about the solvents and their effectiveness. Obviously I understand you don't want to bad mouth anyone, but for people to learn maybe list what you found to be the "most effective" in your experiences?
Fine grade steel wool (0000 grade) and JB bore paste on a patch jag will clean carbon and copper amazingly well without much effort. I had a barrel that had so much carbon and copper I thought I would have to replace the barrel. The barrel looked like brand new after cleaning. The teslong bore scopes are amazing and don't cost much at all. Keep this cleaning method in mind also for shot gun sabot plastic and muzzle loading plastic removal.
Thanks a ton for sharing this information.
I agree with many others what brands work best
Here is another thought....
When I get a rifle out of the safe, I run a patch or two of solvent through the bore, followed by a dry patch. I do this to remove oil and theoretically increase first shot consistency.
But as an afterthought, does shooting through an oiled barrel leave carbon deposits from the oil itself? Could the residue from the burnt oil cause carbon to build up more quickly?
Great research señores .... that's lop wa ...
Any time I did a qual for the AF I could not leave until the range master inspected my firearms for cleanliness and function checks. We only used 45 for zero/warm up and 45 for qual for M4/M16 and M9.
Great job, the data you share on these podcast is great. I have an observation: you seem to use the word "tolerance" when you mean "clearance". My experience: rifle chambers have tighter clearances than the same caliber machine gun chamber. Machining tolerances could/should be identical. Match chamber may have even smaller clearances as well smaller tolerances. This Old guy's 2 cents.
Clearances are the result of tolerance. Or something like that.
Not quite that simple.@@barbarapiercy4312
Years ago, my brother bought a used Ruger #1 in .25/06, an accurate rifle to say the least. He was furious when he took it to the range and it kept a 6-8" group at 100 yards. He wanted to sell it, believing the barrel was shot. I told him to first use my Butch's Bore Shine as instructed. After cleaning, all his shots broke the same hole at 100 yards. Montana X-treme is even better. The hunter in me doesn't clean barrels much, as we don't usually shoot the volume necessary to affect accuracy. But the police sniper in me has learned that a clean barrel is an accurate one, especially when inches count.
Depends. If I load my own rounds I won’t clean until I hit roughly 500 rounds. If I shoot foreign stuff I clean it out immediately. I’ve been burned on more than 1 occasion for shooting stuff that says non corrosive on the box, but were 100% corrosive.
Try not cleaning the throat of your 6mm creed bore and watch what happens. I found out what a carbon ring will do in short order when cases started sticking, my FPS jumped and heads were showing pressure signs. Now I think about the bore and throat separately on my fast cartridges. These rifles are treated very differently now from my slower guns. I wonder How many people like me bought a 6mm or similar and didn’t understand how different these are from a .308.?
Do I have to have a clean barrel before switching to copper bullets. In addition can I shoot both lead and standard cup and core and switch back and forth without cleaning.
Ron Spomer did a video in which he reads a warning inside a box of Lehigh Defense ammo. It said:” clean cup$core bullet fouling before shooting this ammo”. I found this to be true the week before by accident. See my other comment to this video.
I clean the barrels on my bolt action rifles after each use. I prefer a foam cleaner. But I never put anything hard down the barrel like brushes or rods. I use 80# monofilament to pull patches from the breach to the muzzle. Then I coat with Rem Oil to prevent corrosion during storage. Prior to shooting I pull a dry patch through the barrel to eliminate excessive oil.
When I pull the first patches, the first couple of inches are always tighter, I assume because of carbon deposits. The last patches I pull through are easier and there is no difference in the tension.
Great Podcast'' Great Stuff 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Much appreciated
Any comment on solvents like FreeAll to remove C-ring? Thanks.
Clean my rifles after every Hunting season and I usually don’t shoot over 100 rounds and I handload as well.
Cleaning is a must and I have discovered that a solution of 9 parts of transmission fluid with 1 part kerosene helps keep the barrel. It's like having ball bearings on the bullet. I swab the battle after cleaning. This eliminates a great deal of problems plus the solution creates a seal between the barrel and the projectile which helps stabilize the projectile.... FYI .....
I have a question. What happens inside of machineguns that gets reaaly hot. Do some of that carbon cook off?
One observation, you had a big pile of powder on the desk, you don't clean unused powder. Light it up and see what is left after the burning. That's what you are cleaning out of the barrel.
I think this might have been mentioned in a Vortex Nation Podcast. A barrel gets to a certain point of being used and dirty from not cleaning, and then it finally gets cleaned properly. However, after the cleaning the barrel has lost its precise nature. Is there anything that can be done to revive the barrel?
"We found some stuff that really works. We're not going to tell you"
Just tell us if #9 works!
Standard Hoppes #9 does little other than remove some superficial carbon and powder. So no, it does very little. If you actually want to remove copper then use Wipeout/Patchout by Sharp Shoot R, or Bore Tech, or ThorroClean, and maybe a little JB bore paste for the last remaining hard carbon.
gentlemen - a very informative video - learned a lot thanks!
Why don't you mention the effect of carbon residues being hydrophilic and building acid with the absorbed water creating severe corrosion in the barrel!?
Or is that a topic for the next podcast?
I saw this and started watching HOPING that there was a good argument to stop cleaning my barrel. Dang it. You let me down.
Im the weird guy that likes sitting down and cleaning after range day. I find it relaxing.
How often would you recommend doing copper cleaning on a hunting rifle? I use shooters choice for each cleaning but how often for something like sweets copper?