Missleading information on your part. The variance in gold isnt fully explained by the 40 pen alone in your 2. example, leading to a wrong comparrison.
Something to note about GP is his built in % penetration AND true damage allows him to more easily justify building collector, which makes the champ really insane when ahead/even. I wanted to mention this when I reviewed the draft but it felt a bit too specific to mention, so I thought I would chuck it in the comment
I was absolutely shocked at the end of the video, when you shared your current sub count. I didnt pay attention to that when clicking on the video and assumed it was a few 100k. Great video quality
This is the type of league content I wish I would see more of! So many channels just post gameplay (which there's nothing wrong with), so seeing vids going into the game's mechanics are always exciting. So much of the game is misunderstood by so many ppl (including me) so its always fun to learn more about a mechanic I don't fully understand. Well written and edited too! Props, hope this blows up
At 7 minutes you mention Yasuo's R buff, so here's a fun bug I can elaborate with here; The "bonus-armor penetration" the effect provides is actually just a calculated damage multiplier, since bonus armor pen wasn't natively implemented back then (and Riot rarely updates their scripts when new tools become available). Because it isn't a normal part of the resistence calculcation in the damage event, it behaves very unexpectedly with armor reduction and Lethality, doesnt use the same (correct) formula for negative armor (which you don't seem to have touched upon in the video, but I guess that's because it's rarely relevant?), and at specific values of armor and lethality it gives your damage a *near-infinite* multiplier because of that. If you had bothered calculating Yasuo R's effectiveness without testing, you'd have gotten it wrong in the video, and if you had tested your math, you would have ended up spending additional time to get this video out, so I guess that worked out!
I didn't really learn anything new in this video i don't think But it made me realize why building magic resist items (excluding hollow radiance) feels so good
Congrats for 6.4 K just found your channel with your last video and since i love league and math its just the 2 best video i could have found. GL for the next video
Would be cool to see an 'optimised' damage/effective damage build order with pens. Specifically, at what item stages in the game are pen vs flat ap/ad more valuable when against an enemy based on average acquisition time of items and champions levels. e.g., full boots at 12 minutes (level 9), item 1 at 15 minutes (level 11), item 2 at 20 mins (level 13), item 3 at 25 (level 15).
I liked and found your video very useful. I like doing lol math a lot, but I only play mages, so I never did the max armor pen for physical damage. However I tried to use aphelios with the opportunity build instead of Darius and got this: 90,58% shred from teammates, and aphelios at lv 18 has 144.3 letality (taking into account the different benefit from opportunity pasive for ranged champs). Sherylda gives him 40,873% pen, so it all gives 95,74% armor pen, in other words, reducing defense to 4.26% of its original value. 144,3/4.26% =3388 armor pen, better than the 3281 armor pen from Darius or gangplank. Edit: doing the math for Yasuo, taking into account losing 6 lethality from building collector, and assuming 100 base armor, yasuo can go through 3687,5 armor the 50% of the time he crits with collector.
@@Hylofear yeah, you're right, I probably fat fingered something on the calculator. I also just noticed that for magic pen you assumed you could build both terminus and void staff, but you can't. An ally can apply abysmal mask, so that's not an issue, so maxumun magic pen ends up being 1070,6
I reaaly like the use of graphics, it's a form to stand out your content from other league channels. Do you plan on talking about healing amplifications, reduction and health regen (maybe doing a deep dive on warmog current meta)?
few years before bone plate i had this idea of true dmg resistance, the bone plate rune only work for 3 dmgs and has a CD, me it's a permanent stat. True dmg would first use the true dmg resistance stat before hit the health bar (or the shield)
Back in the day its was fun when true damage was so little and not anyone can archive it. Now everyone have ton of true damage that can one shot anyone
Just want to say I'm pretty sure you can stack %reduction without diminished returns. In arena I like playing rumble that builds blood letters curse and with an ally that builds a abyssal mask. This nets you more than 100% mr reduced because rumble can already lower 54% by himself. They have -mr however as you mentioned it doesn't increase DMG.
A lot of this shamefully went over my head, but essentially what I'm hearing is that for a regular game as an AD assassin, your last couple items should be defensive to be efficient against squishies because you will end up having overkill amounts of lethality? And as an AP assassin you should pay attention to whether your opponents have lots of MR or low MR so you can buy items accordingly - because low MR opponents are vulnerable to flat magic pen, and high MR are vulnerable to percent magic pen?
yes, but in real games, it also matters if they are melee. melee champions also have a higher base MR which makes void better into them regardless of mr value.
@@camden666 No. It's part of a larger set of damage types, which determine most interactions with items, stats and the like. Resistance subtype (physical, magic and true damage) only dictate their relationship with resistances and reduction effects. Because this video is only about resistances, I called them 'damage types' instead of 'resistance subtypes', as that's a bit of a mouthful.
If flat shred is applied before percentage shred how can we get true damage against 120+ armor enemies? We shouldn't be able to deal true damage if our flat percentage is more than or equal to enemy's armor. Sorry if i am being stupid
flat penetration is applied last, allowing it to be reduced to zero. if your target has 100 armour and you have 6 lethality items (18*6=106) you remove all their armour and deal true damage.
hmm but for ldr on assasins - isnt it smth to consider if you can utilize the fact its 500g ( i think) cheaper? And gives you chance to double ur ad (crit)?
Ok theoretical min max is interesting for someone maybe but if this was really a good guide it would be helping understand exactly when to build more AP vs more MPEN based on how much resistance you are facing. Seems like a pretty obvious thing to include... I mean I could figure it out myself but that goes for the rest of the video but just "well you don't need to build too much penetration" doesn't really help lol. Like show the graph for how much damage each point of ap/ad adds vs lethality/mpen and with/without various % factors...
what you should have mentioned is that % armor pen and % magic pen are one of the few stats that are softcapped. Gaining less the more you have. I noticed in 5:40 you gave a Rank 3 pantheon R with LDR 70% Penetration, but because Its sofcapped Pantheon With LDR only Gets 55% and Not 70%. Same way for Magic pen. A rank 5 Mord E with Voidstaff gives 49% magic pen Not 55%. if you did mention and missed it mb ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ good vid tho 💯
The part with the Pantheon ult explains the soft cap. I am explaining the difference between additive and multiplicative stacking, with the 70 removed armour being the example of how it would work if it was additive.
It was easy to understand how to get the 40|40 build on AP assassins to maximize pen, but when you mention "it becomes more important to build flat damage or defensive items [in the late game]" at 9:17, its not really well defined when an AD assassin hits that pseudo-true damage mark to transition to those items
It's not a hard and fast rule, but generally your fourth/fifth item can be defensive or flat damage without impacting your a.pen. This is of course matchup dependent.
9:05 Not really related the video. As a poppy main, I honestly thought two full lethality times plus a lethality component would one shot an ADC same lvl quicker. Didn’t think you would have to ult and I think smite to secure the kill. Feel like I Sundered Sky or Trinity Force with deadman’s would does the same but with more durability. I love seeing other people player’s builds and play styles.
Game design choice. The idea is that true damage is meant to be consistently better than physical and magic damage. If you could get negative resists during damage calculation, it would be easy to make physical or magic damage BETTER than true damage.
This video gives a false impression to the viewer that GA isn’t often enough to stop the true damage from assassins. It doesn’t, however, attempt to see whether in most games, buying armor would be a net benefit or not. If it is the case that the armor reduces your true damage, even by a little bit, it would be crucial to purchase it. Most lethality champions are not building pure lethality for 5 items plus seryldas.
"everyone can do true damage" 'with the stipulation its on a squishy who wont be building more then 1hybrid defensive item so likely anyone other than tanks and bruisers..... which everyone already knows... thats not the issue most people have with pen besides being 1hit. the biggest issue with pen is the gold efficiency of tank items/defensive components effectively allowing 1 defensive item to give defensive stats equal to the pen of 2-3 offensive pen items, this leads to the situation where even with a % pen item if you are defensively itemized against you can straight up be ignored assuming you dont have built in pen or % damage(granted a lot of people have one of these now) id argue this leads to many issues such as the rampant overuse of such additions into kits to deal with tanks etc which make it significantly harder to balance. as with high amounts of built in % or pen it allows you to build multiple defensive items but still deal equally large amounts of damage as other champs which are lacking such tools.
you assumed in this video that you can stack terminus and voidstaff but that is not possible (terminus got added during the time where riot started excluding BC with ldr/serylda and applied the same to terminus)
Terminus applies a shred effect, meaning it can be applied by someone not holding Void Staff. The main damage dealer holds Void, one of their allies holds Terminus.
"I don't want to calculate that so I will assume the easier calculation is the optimal one." Absolute genius.
occam's razor
@@halfhalfsg that's an engineer's movement right there
I love being able to build one negatron cloak as a tank (50 mr, 950 gold) to cancel out the pen from 2 full items and sorcs (40 pen, 7k gold)
kaenic rookern 😎
Missleading information on your part. The variance in gold isnt fully explained by the 40 pen alone in your 2. example, leading to a wrong comparrison.
@@TheMehkeyI mean there's the mythic passive + other stats but you can't deny that mr does counter most ap
mythic passives still exist?
@@ultimate1450no
Something to note about GP is his built in % penetration AND true damage allows him to more easily justify building collector, which makes the champ really insane when ahead/even. I wanted to mention this when I reviewed the draft but it felt a bit too specific to mention, so I thought I would chuck it in the comment
Gp has 40% armor penetration on E
@@musikich Yeah, that's what the comment is about
I was absolutely shocked at the end of the video, when you shared your current sub count. I didnt pay attention to that when clicking on the video and assumed it was a few 100k. Great video quality
This is the type of league content I wish I would see more of! So many channels just post gameplay (which there's nothing wrong with), so seeing vids going into the game's mechanics are always exciting. So much of the game is misunderstood by so many ppl (including me) so its always fun to learn more about a mechanic I don't fully understand. Well written and edited too! Props, hope this blows up
Delivering actual facts about the game and explained, SUBSCRIBED
At 7 minutes you mention Yasuo's R buff, so here's a fun bug I can elaborate with here;
The "bonus-armor penetration" the effect provides is actually just a calculated damage multiplier, since bonus armor pen wasn't natively implemented back then (and Riot rarely updates their scripts when new tools become available). Because it isn't a normal part of the resistence calculcation in the damage event, it behaves very unexpectedly with armor reduction and Lethality, doesnt use the same (correct) formula for negative armor (which you don't seem to have touched upon in the video, but I guess that's because it's rarely relevant?), and at specific values of armor and lethality it gives your damage a *near-infinite* multiplier because of that.
If you had bothered calculating Yasuo R's effectiveness without testing, you'd have gotten it wrong in the video, and if you had tested your math, you would have ended up spending additional time to get this video out, so I guess that worked out!
Soo, instead of bonus penetration, is bonus damage to enemies with more armor, how that works vs a thornmail?
Thank goodness I didn't try and calculate that nightmare
I didn't really learn anything new in this video i don't think
But it made me realize why building magic resist items (excluding hollow radiance) feels so good
Thank you boss - this is the first guide which made this mechanic easily understandable!
Congrats for 6.4 K just found your channel with your last video and since i love league and math its just the 2 best video i could have found.
GL for the next video
I was having doubt until I saw that intro, 10/10
What a great video. I really needed my popcorn for that one 😁😁👌👌👌👌
I love the fact that you use Ultrakill music
Would watch even if it was clickbait 🛐
Zoe E provides more MR Reduction than Karthus W
True I missed that, nice find!
ahhhhh, lethality poppy my beloved, nice video
Would be cool to see an 'optimised' damage/effective damage build order with pens. Specifically, at what item stages in the game are pen vs flat ap/ad more valuable when against an enemy based on average acquisition time of items and champions levels. e.g., full boots at 12 minutes (level 9), item 1 at 15 minutes (level 11), item 2 at 20 mins (level 13), item 3 at 25 (level 15).
Yeah I thought that would be the entire point of the video but it had nothing at all about that
I liked and found your video very useful. I like doing lol math a lot, but I only play mages, so I never did the max armor pen for physical damage. However I tried to use aphelios with the opportunity build instead of Darius and got this: 90,58% shred from teammates, and aphelios at lv 18 has 144.3 letality (taking into account the different benefit from opportunity pasive for ranged champs). Sherylda gives him 40,873% pen, so it all gives 95,74% armor pen, in other words, reducing defense to 4.26% of its original value. 144,3/4.26% =3388 armor pen, better than the 3281 armor pen from Darius or gangplank.
Edit: doing the math for Yasuo, taking into account losing 6 lethality from building collector, and assuming 100 base armor, yasuo can go through 3687,5 armor the 50% of the time he crits with collector.
Are you remembering to remove the 40% from Darius E passive? I get a lower number for the Aphelios armour pen build (2591).
@@Hylofear yeah, you're right, I probably fat fingered something on the calculator. I also just noticed that for magic pen you assumed you could build both terminus and void staff, but you can't. An ally can apply abysmal mask, so that's not an issue, so maxumun magic pen ends up being 1070,6
I reaaly like the use of graphics, it's a form to stand out your content from other league channels. Do you plan on talking about healing amplifications, reduction and health regen (maybe doing a deep dive on warmog current meta)?
I actually made a guide to healing and shielding! Its just an overview of what it is and the different types though, not a deep analysis.
few years before bone plate i had this idea of true dmg resistance, the bone plate rune only work for 3 dmgs and has a CD, me it's a permanent stat. True dmg would first use the true dmg resistance stat before hit the health bar (or the shield)
every time my team mate will build wrong i will send this video so they can learn from you
great editing and unique content,matter of time until you get big
Back in the day its was fun when true damage was so little and not anyone can archive it. Now everyone have ton of true damage that can one shot anyone
Just want to say I'm pretty sure you can stack %reduction without diminished returns. In arena I like playing rumble that builds blood letters curse and with an ally that builds a abyssal mask. This nets you more than 100% mr reduced because rumble can already lower 54% by himself. They have -mr however as you mentioned it doesn't increase DMG.
this video prooves that im dumb and stoopid
you are smarter than the man who believes they know everything.
Skyart a son bloc note
this is honestly soo underated like dude this vid alone needs more views
Gonna pray for that yt algorithim
A lot of this shamefully went over my head, but essentially what I'm hearing is that for a regular game as an AD assassin, your last couple items should be defensive to be efficient against squishies because you will end up having overkill amounts of lethality?
And as an AP assassin you should pay attention to whether your opponents have lots of MR or low MR so you can buy items accordingly - because low MR opponents are vulnerable to flat magic pen, and high MR are vulnerable to percent magic pen?
yes, but in real games, it also matters if they are melee. melee champions also have a higher base MR which makes void better into them regardless of mr value.
Cool vid, pls more league science
There is actually a fourth type of damage in the game, called pure damage, that is only used by the fountain laser. It ignores trynd ult, GA, etc.
Pure damage, otherwise known as Internal Raw damage, is a different category of damage type than physical, magic, and true.
which doesn't contradict with my comment, it's just the intro is technically incorrect that's all I was pointing out
@@camden666 No. It's part of a larger set of damage types, which determine most interactions with items, stats and the like. Resistance subtype (physical, magic and true damage) only dictate their relationship with resistances and reduction effects. Because this video is only about resistances, I called them 'damage types' instead of 'resistance subtypes', as that's a bit of a mouthful.
@@Hylofear What do you mean ‘no’, you just admitted it was right and that you used the wrong term
Very cool video, thanks
watch on 2x speed trust
If flat shred is applied before percentage shred how can we get true damage against 120+ armor enemies?
We shouldn't be able to deal true damage if our flat percentage is more than or equal to enemy's armor. Sorry if i am being stupid
flat penetration is applied last, allowing it to be reduced to zero. if your target has 100 armour and you have 6 lethality items (18*6=106) you remove all their armour and deal true damage.
@@Hylofeari confused shred with percentage okay mb thanks
0:05 You forgot emotional damage
I’ve been looking for this video for years, my savior
you wrong, there only 2 types of damage: damage and emotional damage
The thing is if ur panth and lvl 3 R with ldr u just got 60%armor pen or less same to darius E and mord E and others
hmm but for ldr on assasins - isnt it smth to consider if you can utilize the fact its 500g ( i think) cheaper? And gives you chance to double ur ad (crit)?
Ok theoretical min max is interesting for someone maybe but if this was really a good guide it would be helping understand exactly when to build more AP vs more MPEN based on how much resistance you are facing. Seems like a pretty obvious thing to include... I mean I could figure it out myself but that goes for the rest of the video but just "well you don't need to build too much penetration" doesn't really help lol. Like show the graph for how much damage each point of ap/ad adds vs lethality/mpen and with/without various % factors...
i think i remember a rammus - trundle bug where he could actually get negative armor - did that get patched?
what you should have mentioned is that % armor pen and % magic pen are one of the few stats that are softcapped. Gaining less the more you have.
I noticed in 5:40 you gave a Rank 3 pantheon R with LDR 70% Penetration, but because Its sofcapped Pantheon With LDR only Gets 55% and Not 70%.
Same way for Magic pen. A rank 5 Mord E with Voidstaff gives 49% magic pen Not 55%.
if you did mention and missed it mb ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
good vid tho 💯
The part with the Pantheon ult explains the soft cap. I am explaining the difference between additive and multiplicative stacking, with the 70 removed armour being the example of how it would work if it was additive.
@@Hylofear damn mb.
was just confused when it said 70%
Care people + need help ! :
Armor * (1 - Armor%pen1) * (1 - Armor%pen2) * (1 - Armor%pen3) = Armor left ;
Armor left if Armor = 100, A%p1 = 0.4, A%p2 = 0.3, A%p3 = 0.2 :
100 * 0.6 * 0.7 * 0.8 = 33.6 armor left
Armor delete = 100- 33.6 = 66.4
Armor * (0 + A%p1) * (1+A%p2) * (1+A%p3) = 62.4 =/= 66.4
Armor * (0 + A%p1 ) * (1 / 1 - A%p2 ) * ( 1 / 1 - A%p3 ) = 71.43 =/= 66.4
Armor * (1 / 1 + A%p1) * (1 / 1 + A%P2 ) * (1 / 1 + A%P3 ) = 45.79 =/= 66.4
Armor * (1 / 1 - A%P1) * (1 / 1 + A%P) * (1 / 1 + A%P3) = 297.62 =/= 66.4 (but ArmorLeft * (1 / 1 - A%P1) * (1 / 1 + A%P) * (1 / 1 + A%P3) = Armor )
Armor * ? * ? * ? = 66.4
It was easy to understand how to get the 40|40 build on AP assassins to maximize pen, but when you mention "it becomes more important to build flat damage or defensive items [in the late game]" at 9:17, its not really well defined when an AD assassin hits that pseudo-true damage mark to transition to those items
It's not a hard and fast rule, but generally your fourth/fifth item can be defensive or flat damage without impacting your a.pen. This is of course matchup dependent.
Is this just me or did i notice the chat in the beginning of the video bro 😭
One small mistake, you cant have terminus and void staff at the same time.
An ally buys terminus and stacks it for you. Same for Malignance and Abyssal Mask.
9:05 Not really related the video. As a poppy main, I honestly thought two full lethality times plus a lethality component would one shot an ADC same lvl quicker. Didn’t think you would have to ult and I think smite to secure the kill. Feel like I Sundered Sky or Trinity Force with deadman’s would does the same but with more durability. I love seeing other people player’s builds and play styles.
It might have been more optimal, but I was collecting footage for the funny lethality video so I was locked in to the build.
I missed it, what was the build?
Zoe's E reduce MR by 30% so with Void it would be 70% total?
Would probably work multiplicative, like in this example: 5:41 , so It would pen 58% of the total mr.
why do you not go over negative armor calculation :o
Game design choice. The idea is that true damage is meant to be consistently better than physical and magic damage. If you could get negative resists during damage calculation, it would be easy to make physical or magic damage BETTER than true damage.
This video gives a false impression to the viewer that GA isn’t often enough to stop the true damage from assassins. It doesn’t, however, attempt to see whether in most games, buying armor would be a net benefit or not. If it is the case that the armor reduces your true damage, even by a little bit, it would be crucial to purchase it. Most lethality champions are not building pure lethality for 5 items plus seryldas.
"everyone can do true damage" 'with the stipulation its on a squishy who wont be building more then 1hybrid defensive item so likely anyone other than tanks and bruisers..... which everyone already knows... thats not the issue most people have with pen besides being 1hit. the biggest issue with pen is the gold efficiency of tank items/defensive components effectively allowing 1 defensive item to give defensive stats equal to the pen of 2-3 offensive pen items, this leads to the situation where even with a % pen item if you are defensively itemized against you can straight up be ignored assuming you dont have built in pen or % damage(granted a lot of people have one of these now) id argue this leads to many issues such as the rampant overuse of such additions into kits to deal with tanks etc which make it significantly harder to balance. as with high amounts of built in % or pen it allows you to build multiple defensive items but still deal equally large amounts of damage as other champs which are lacking such tools.
or or do triple passive reset as gp
Isn't excess flat pen increase our damage beyond true damage? (Up to 200%)
No. Theres a hard cap on the resistances flat pen can reduce. Only flat SHRED can reduce resistances to below zero.
7:00
0.5*0.6*0.65*0.69 = 0.13455
100-13,455 = 86.545
So how you find 90.58% ?
first off rengar gains lethality in his ult and percentage lethality is calculated first so idek what ur talking about
Good try! Both these things are wrong.
is seryldas 2nd bis for ad assasi n then?
you assumed in this video that you can stack terminus and voidstaff
but that is not possible (terminus got added during the time where riot started excluding BC with ldr/serylda and applied the same to terminus)
Terminus applies a shred effect, meaning it can be applied by someone not holding Void Staff. The main damage dealer holds Void, one of their allies holds Terminus.
@@Hylofear I'm sorry but no it doesn't 🥺
it only gives you 10% aPen&mPen for each stack of "dark"
Just build Landry
yeaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAA