I fully support battery regulation because it gives tenants a foundation for discussion and argument to prevent complexes and apartments from blanket banning e-bikes.
Unless there's a body like the USB standard there must be a government certification program because otherwise you get bad actors who push a product to market before it's ready.
Fantastic video - glad you're addressing this. Battery safety was a large factor in choosing a Bosch system for my own bike. I'd hate to see the e-bike industry get squashed because they don't adopt basic safety rules.
I think we've seen safety standards for ebike lithium batteries coming for some time as we hear about battery fires. I just wonder how that will affect the many owners who have non-certified batteries in their bikes or how we might replace them with safer batteries. In either event, "safety first" is a good rule of thumb. Thanks for the info!
Jealous forces and there are always jealous forces have been sabotaging green energy every minute of every day... Why they made windmills ridiculously big... And they don't let anything roll down the road that doesn't have the potential to catch fire or explode... I don't know about y'all but I was told by the researchers that we would have solid state batteries by now? Supposedly years ago... I blame the occult knuckle draggers
This is a huge concern for micromobility in NYC. These e-bike fires will bring out the NIMBY even in folks that have been pro-bikelane. We had a fire in an adjacent building, and my wife, who is NOT an asshole, idly speculated "maybe it was one of those e-bikes." Fire is so scary and it gets in peoples' heads. Safe batteries and charging are going to have to become a part of urban infrastructure.
Thoughtful discussion. I appreciate your commitment/passion for safe, quality products. Thank you for caring more than just about selling more ebikes at bigger profit margins. You are on my radar for my next ebike purchase, even if I have to make a road trip to your nearest store in CA. You exemplify integrity.
That's very kind of you. I believe it's the only right longterm strategy. If we want this to be a true solution we must think long term! Unfortunately, most are too controlled by outside forces (or money) and forced to protect their quarterly earnings.
Excellent Jornalism. I'm very impressed you mentioned other UL Approved E Bike's. I'm shocked that major E Bike distributors have been dragging their feet on this issue. You make a excellent Ambassador to the E Bike Community.
Informative video that offers such a balanced perspective. I appreciate that you have empathy for people who want affordability, but are not afraid to take a stance and say that this is bigger than just individuals who want do things cheaply or DIY. Not enough people (or even prominent micromobility organizations) are willing to say that. We have an opportunity to have one of the best forms of local transportation available to us, as long as we make sure it's safe for our neighbors. It would really suck if a few bad eggs take this away for the rest of us.
Chris, thanks for the info, At this point, I have commuter, MTB and gravel bikes, have not felt the need to go e-bike yet but see it in my future. So I will be watching to see how UL certification goes in e-bikes. I am in San Diego, good to know you have a SoCal shop. Looking forward to more of your informative videos. Thanks for caring about the rider/consumer and the industry as a whole.
Thank you for the updated video, it's a big issue that needs to be addressed and is probably holding back sales of eBikes. It's unfortunate the high quality brands are also typically the most expensive.
I think as the playing field becomes more level we will see more quality products at a low price. It will stop the companies who just try to act like they are high quality but they really aren't.
It's not so much the bikes that are the problem, it's the batteries. From what I've seen most of the batteries that have caught fire are the inexpensive & cheaply made batteries that go on the very inexpensive conversion kits or cheap bikes. The fires seem less of an issue with quality batteries. The battery that came with my bike was a Bosch, I don't really have any concerns about it. Nonetheless, I did get a "fire resistant" bag to store it in when it's in the moving truck during our upcoming move. (Better safe than sorry lol)
Battery safety is so important. I live in South Lake Tahoe California and earlier this week a local family’s home burned down due to an e-skateboard lithium battery charging in their garage exploding.
I use commercial-grade, name-brand lawn mower batteries for my ebike w/Bafang BBS02: Greenworks 60v, Echo 56v and Ego 56v. Echo has the smallest form factor, it's very compact and narrow, so it can be mounted in all sorts of places on the bike frame. I use only one 5aH battery for short trips but I can add another 5aH battery for +15 mile road trips. Over-voltage with a 48v BBS02 is okay as long as you don't go over 61 volts in which case it will shut down with a 07 error code on the display. Higher voltages gives you more amp hours for the motor.
The main enemy of ebike batteries is heat. Don’t charge them in direct sunlight or someplace that’s not ventilated. Don’t overcharge-charge the battery when it needs to be charged (50% or under). Unplug the charger when not in use.
I try to be a responsible e-bike builder and owner. 2 things I want to look into. 1.) find out how to get certified to be a tester. OR 2.) to find a local agency to do the testing. I am also looking into rebuilding the bad batteries into good batteries.
the NY law is well intentioned but sadly it won't address the low end ebikes sold direct. these are the ones used by messengers and delivery workers and charged up in (possibly) older buildings with substandard wiring. Thermal cutouts in the BMS are a great idea, of course but there's no substitute for keeping a close eye on your ebike when it is charging. The charging unit on my Specialized gets QUITE warm, and I can only imagine the fire danger if there were 2-3 bikes plugged into a 10A wall outlet down in the basement.
This is what they are trying to address by pushing CPSC with similar requirements. I'm sure it's coming. Definitely keep an eye on that warm charger. That sounds concerning
Thanks so much for the info! I wish more companies were like yours: focusing more on long term relationships and safety instead of cutting corners to make a quick buck.
Congratulations Dad! Yes, I think that this is the way to go with UL certification. Many of us live in NYC apartments and always safety first! And never over charge your battery.
The number of fires caused by lithium-ion e-scooter and e-bike batteries in the UK has surged almost 150% over the past year*. In London alone, firefighters attended 88 fires caused by e-bikes in 2022 - an increase of 80% on the 49 responded to in 2021. note , Many of the fires have been attributed to e-bike conversion kits which can be used to convert a standard push bike into an electric bike.
Good update to last year’s video. As I said in response to that video, legislation needs to be Federal on this and UL is an effective mechanism to implement it. We all need to be thinking about safety and sustainability. Buy less, buy better. I went out of my way to get my R-14 from you because of your values on safety and quality. Two years later with 1,000 urban miles, I’ve spent $0 on the bike other than brake pads. Charging always goes to spec and your comments about the battery management system quality is a very important point. Keep talking about battery safety!
Thanks for covering this, even though I’m in the U.K. We travel with our bikes, I’ve heard horror stories about e-bikes exploding when left in the hot sun, and spontaneously catching fire on trains. We went through a phase where train operators began banning e-bikes, like the Caledonian Sleeper train up to Scotland. Luckily they reversed their decision, perhaps due to public pressure, but also because manufacturers like Bosch were able to evidence the safety standards.
How easy is it to get rid of a battery that for whatever reason needs to be disposed of? I feel like easily accessible recycling or at least, safe disposal options are almost as important as fire safety for ebikes to be viable and sustainable.
Good that this will be done, happy for you that your gut feeling of only selling brands that already follow some of the rules of other countries has worked out for you. We all know it can be done and it was mostly the cheap stuff giving problems and i mean cheap in how they are made not even the price of the resulting bicycle. One of the reasons i went for bosch is their long experience with batteries for tools that have been charged for decades inside homes and the willingness of the company to support these safety demands early.
Definitely, I am optimistic as the public becomes more aware of these concerns the market will begin to shift regardless of the regulation. But it seems like both will happen at the same time.
I agree, I just went to buy a bike and was convinced not to buy the cheaper bikes due to risks, but I think even the more expensive ones in my country don't have any certification...
Great journalism. Thanks for all the insights. I just bought my first mused e-bike and it never crossed my mind that the majority of the bikes out there are not certified. Any house wiring has to comply to standards, gas pipping has to follow codes, cars have to comply to certain standards, airplanes, electronics to such rules as EMC… I fully support the reasoning behind these new bills. We have to develop and follow standards for e-bikes as well. That Wild West mentality needs to stop. Yes it is a pain to comply to all kinds of worldwide standards but many product manufacturers have done it in the past. No matter our UL, CE, TÜV and so many more. If Laptop manufacturers can do it so should e-bike manufacturers.
I worked for an electrical contractor for a short time and we had to clear all in coming appliances and devices with them for testing. I bought coffee grinder that was supposed to be ULC (Canadian UL) compliant. It was not. That's when I learned that not everything marked UL is actually UL compliant. I was talking with some ebike dealers in Vancouver on my days off and stated that when I buy my ebike it has to be ULC compliant, and demonstrably compliant. As a renter, I do not want my bike seen as a liability.
I hope they work towards making the system failure tolerant as well as attempting to make the system failure proof, which it never will be. Having UL listed batteries is great, having UL listed full systems is maybe a little stifling to choice and reasonable price. How about fireproof charging lockers for batteries? Relatively easy installation, allows you to keep the battery out of the apartment, keeps batteries separate from each other, keeps bikes separate from batteries which is probably nice in case of fire, etc.
My guess would be that the flagship stores are going to sell the bikes without a battery and then give you a special code where you then can order the battery online and get it shipped to new york in the cases where they can't get them certified. However another guess would be that the bigger brands and EN certified batteries will be fairly easy to certify to UL. Another possibility would be that 3rd parties will make specificly UL certified batteries that fit in the standard bosch, Shimano, Brose etc. systems. And hopefully make it a closed loop with recycling, rebuilding, and perhaps create more competition in the batterymarket.
the ul standards and En standards are very close or almost the same. But UL safety standard needs to be national, which stops people buying crap out of town of Online. this might save the industry
🙏🏾👍🏾 Great Video, Thank You for the Update/Info. Well the Writing was on the Wall. Soon as I Started hearing about e-bikes and E-scooters Catching on Fire, I Started Getting Mad Because I Knew Some People Was living there e-Bikes/e-Scooters On Over Night. I Even Heard about a Guy Living his e-bike Charging In a Pizza Shop Over Night and Everybody Went Home, Came Back the Next Day and the Pizza Shop was Burnt Down. Also I'm Starting to Hear Something about Fast Charger as Well. I don't Know If People are Trying to Use a Regular Charger along with a Fast Charger or What But It's a Problem too. It's Just The Little Things That's Causing these Things to Happened. So We Can't Get Mad, Because Safety Comes First along with a Place to Live. But I Thank You Once again for the Info. I live in the Bronx where I'm hearing about a Fire Every time I turn on the News. 😌 And The Bronx is Not Alone. I Have a e-Scooter, and I Charge it While I'm looking at T.V. or On My Computer, I Would Never Keep My Scooter Charging Over Night. 👍🏾👍🏾✌🏾✌🏾🛴🛴🛴🙏🏾
That CASP 2019 report is pretty interesting. As an electric unicycle rider, I was happy to see that the 3 unicycles were all compliant. Wish I knew which models they tested
Certification will not prevent fires, though it'll help remove those that don't implement basic safeties to reduce costs (EN15194 requires some safeties while charging for ex., which is where most fire starts, but it won't prevent fires from happening because of bad handling) ... fire prevention starts with basic education of the buyer (don't pretend he'll read the instructions, this never happens) ... like "never leave your charging battery unattended neither in a flammable environment", "change your battery if it felt down", "never charge your battery right after using it (wait an hour)" and "you might as well buy this cute LiPo bag" to store your battery in when you're not using it and when you're charging.
I would go one more step and say inspection stations, including possibly an e- bike knowledge test for a license of sorts basic stuff inspecting the battery and bike for defects, good storage and proper charging protocols just so good operators can challenge restrictions that might be imposed
I suspect one of the reasons that early hover boards caught fire was the quick charge/discharge cycles. A teenager can flatten the battery fairly quickly, and heavy battery drain will heat them considerably, and then it's immediately on the charger, which also causes heating, and get back on the street as soon as possible. A saturday of riding will see the battery kept at a high temp all day.
Going to hazard a guess that New York is going first because of housing density. If I catch my single family house with typical suburban setbacks on fire, I burned down my house. If a resident of an NYC apartment building has a battery fire, it effects multiple families. It will be interesting to hear from universities that have dormitories. I know dorms have gotten fancier, but it's not been that long ago that plugging in a hair dryer meant unpluging your fridge if you didn't want to trip a breaker. I imagine that student housing authorities are watching this closely.
You're absolutely right! Many schools have already taken steps to ban eMobility solutions as a result of this. Some of the places that have most the gain have stopped before it even started. Hopefully with standards we can start to peel back the mess others have created here.
Your video was great. Lots of excellent info. You've got really nice ebikes in your store, a little too pricey for me though. Also, I'm looking for a folding bike and was about to get a MOD City+ before all this controversy. Now my gym AND my building are banning ALL ebikes, scooters and skateboards. UGH
UL listing is only part of the solution. Fire and health and safety regulations as well as building code specifications are also needed. Ebike batteries contain a large amount of energy and are susceptible to heat, damage and shorting (yes, even the UL listed ones). Having proper ebike battery storage is important to mitigate risk. People should not be leaving these in combustible areas. This is not fear mongering. It is just effective risk mitigation.
Interestingly enough FDNY was also the first and perhaps the force behind adopting these standards as the firecode was updated last year. But we agree completely
Great to see some progress on this issue. Not sure this helps any, but we've been using the smart plug outlets to turn on and off power to the chargers for the bikes and accessories. I set the the smart outlets to run 4 or 5 hours, and turn them on with my phone when the bike is plugged in for a charge. That way power is automatically turned off after the bike is charged, even if I forget to unplug the bike. The smart plugs are cheap ($15), and possible provide a little bit of insurance.
Smart plugs require (a wireless) connection to your wifi. If, like me, you charge your EBike in your garage and your garage is not attached to your property, e.g. if you live in an apartment like most people in NY and big cities where bikes are most needed, then wireless connection to your smart plug might not be possible due to the limited signal range of wireless wifis. Taking the battery off your bike to charge at home solves that problem but adds to the danger that if anything were to go wrong in the charging process and fire were to ensue, then greater damage could result in comparison than if you had left the battery in the garage without a smart plug to charge.
There are some inexpensive and very simple mechanical outlet timers. You simply plug the device into an outlet, set its internal clock, plug your charger into the device's output, and set physical pegs in place at the times you want the power to cycle, one color peg for on and another color for off. The pegs trip a mechanical switch as the clock moves through the day, powering the timer's output on and off. Most of these can be set for at least two on times and two off times per day. Or, for this application, they can be turned on manually and include an OFF peg but no ON peg, so that at the appointed time power is secured until you manually restore it. Mechanical means it's very reliable and requires no internet or network connection. It's a dumb timer, I guess you could say.
@@rangersmith4652 Timer plugs are only good for 24 hours because, after 24 hours, they start the cycle again and again. So if e.g. you forget to turn it off and you go away for a few days, which has happened to me on a number of occasions, the power comes on attempting to charge the battery which may result in overcharging which may ultimately damage the cells.
@@mamadjun Availability of WiFi is not an issue for many of us that live outside of NYC. I worked in NYC for 25 years, so I'm familiar, and in the city, WiFi could be an issue for some e-bike owners, of course. Today, my eyeballs tell me that most e-bikes in North America are sold to the age 50-70 demographic that do not live in dense urban areas. (Hopefully that is changing and in the future, I do think more e-bikes will be sold to younger people as they become a more viable alternative to a car or public transportation.) If you don't have WiFi where you charge, there are electronic digital timers that can be programmed for time of day and day of week, so that's something.
Wow, this is great. I see a lot of questionable bikes running around Vancouver, so hopefully they start mandating it here too. It's definitely a point of contention where costs go; I've already seen a few people say it prohibits people with much lower income from getting an ebike because the testing/certification tends to increase the prices. Even with the incentive(s) we have.
I understand why NYC is doing this and why it probably needs to happen, but I completely disagree with you that there is no way to regulate in a way that allows for battery repair, whether DIY or commercial. These batteries are not nuclear reactors; they are quite simple devices. I am a DIY e-biker and kind of resent your implication, tbh, that DIYers are only recreational riders. I have been using an e-bike for the past 6 years as a partial car replacement, some of which has been recreational, but the vast majority of which is practical in nature: getting groceries, taking the dog to the dog park, hardware runs, landfill runs, et cetera. I own a R&M; but I also own a DIY bike that I refer to as a "bike tractor". I built that bike specifically to address the shortcomings for my needs of what is offered by the industry, out of components from a Canadian company called Grin Technologies. My wife and I also own a factory-retrofitted HP Velotechnik Scorpion FS20, and I own a traction system called the Rubbee X to use with some older traditional bikes. I charge all of those bike batteries inside repurposed steel ammo cans; but in 6 years, I have never had a battery fire. In fact, most of the battery fires in NY have been caused by scooters, not e-bikes. One of the biggest issues I have with R&M, and why I probably will not buy a Bosch solution again, is because Bosch takes measures to brick your BMS if you attempt to re-cell it. But re-celling is a very straightforward process; a monkey could do it. There is no reason that a DIY rider wanting to save several hundred dollars could not submit to an inspection, just like homeowners have to do with DIY housing projects requiring permits (which, if they involve electrical work, are necessarily more complicated and potentially more hazardous than an e-bike battery re-cell). You could specify that DIY users use particular brands of 18650 cells that are tested and meet UL standards, which do exist and are freely available on the market today from Samsung, LG and Panasonic. There could be a permitting or licensing process for those wishing to build, repair or refurbish their own batteries, or businesses wishing to do the same. Recycling is great, but is inherently more wasteful than reuse. Why should I recycle the battery case, the BMS and the wiring if only the cells need to be replaced? It is difficult not to see this as being yet another means of companies like Bosch, who as I understand it, is heavily involved in lobbying at the state and federal levels for this kind of legislation, to close out the legal DIY e-bike market and block right-to-repair so they can monopolize the market for themselves. It is legal to perform all kinds of technical work on motor vehicles and houses yourself, but it's impossible to regulate repairing a simple battery? I don't buy it.
First thing I thought of in relation to the US was how are they going to enforce that? It is good that at least there is movement on this issue. I wonder if instead of concentration on safe place to park the bikes how about a place to park the batteries, where they can also be charged. Some kind of safe, secure place where they are plugged in and ready to go when you go out. The 'bike' part of the e-bike is the most expensive part (yes batteries are expensive), but bringing the bicycle into my apartment is completely safe.
Good points for sure. This law change gives enforcement agencies power to do something. Previously they didn't have the means to enforce because there was no law.
I think De-minimis is a different rule. It is about de minimis limits of subsidies that companies in the EU can receive without it having an impact on competition. I think here in the video the VAT limit in Internet trade of imported goods is meant, which is 150 euros. There is no customs duty on goods under 150 euros. There is probably an "Import One Stop Shop" IOSS system where importers can register, pay the VAT and that's it from a money point of view. Imports still have to be registered with customs.
Setting Safety Standards is what Governments are supposed to do to protect citizens, often from themselves!, UL74, EN specifications etc etc. I spent two decades ruggedising electronics used in Military and Automotive industries to IP68 with UL74 certified materials.
I agree, but the US doesn't really work that way. As I shared in the video we regulate after injuries and deaths happen where the EU regulates to try to prevent these things.
A few fires here over in the UK. Most fires of e-bike batteries come from unregulated batteries peeps buy online and upgrade their normal bikes to cut cost of buying an e-bike. I bought a purpose built e-bike with Bosch battery and charger.
Storing the batteries in facility separate from housing? Sounds good on paper however the batteries need to be kept at ambient temperature? Is a huge Factor... Besides security concerns
This was a great video, very informative. I’m curious if there’s a law or something we can cite when speaking to building management as it seems some have taken a stance of no e-bikes period on premises. It would be good to be able to go back to management and argue that particular tested bikes/brands should be allowed based on fdny guidelines. Sadly, my building is one of these and I’d really like to join the e-bike community soon.
@@Propelbikes Aren't we all responsible for each other? I don't want to burn my neighbors out of their homes. While not UL I did research and made sure my BMS had all the safety programming available at the time. Thermal runaway is a scary thing and you can't be too safe!!!
@@ChrisB... No argument here. I think the main problem is novices not matching (or exceeding) motor draw with the battery output plus the cheap E-Bay & Ali-Baba batteries. Even bigger issues than the cells are the BMS & charger. With a good BMS & charger a battery should be pretty safe (under a reasonable load).
Hi Chris, do you happen to know if the Stromer ST2 battery is UL certified? I actually purchased it from your shop several years ago. Anyways, informative video. Thanks!
I DIYed my own battery because the majority of BMSs in manufactured batteries can not be monitored during charging. The BMS I choose to use has Bluetooth which allows a phone app to monitor all aspects of the battery during charging, and/or use of the battery. I am of the opinion that this Bluetooth feature is the best way to mitigate the risk of fire. Current BMSs are nothing more than a black box that offers no warning that an issue is occurring! Bluetooth communication should be a mandatory safety feature for Li-ion batteries!
My Hase brand trike with Shjmano STEPS is UL approved. Have logically realized that these cheapest bike battery fires were indeed coming! The other (unrelated) problem coming is the turning of bicycle trails into bicycle expressways!
@@Propelbikes You are correct. I went out into garage and read label. Not UL, but guessing same battery as sold with Hase trikes within Germany. Did not know how to email you. Not very computer literate here. Thank you for correcting the Wrong Information I presented!
Don't worry about making a long video about important topics. As long as a video isn't long really because of lots of fluff and BSing, then I am fine with it being long.
I own a Bikonit ebike it had a battery recall on it. I sent the batteries to FTH Power to be fixed, lost a bit of range with the repair , but they are safe , seem Bikonit uses Bixtrix battery packs that have CE safety logo on them
Interesting. Just to clarify CE is not at all a test mark, it's just a mark that the manufacturer is in compliance with the minimum standard in Europe. I would not put any faith in that mark
From seeing how Li batteries burn/explode I find it hard legislation hasn't acted sooner. Here where I live one dealer has turned to selling Bosch systems only as you have.
Its a sales laws not use laws if you already own one you are 'ok'. i say that with in this way since the whole idea is to keep you and your family / others in building safe. So i would think long and hard if you want to ride a bike/battery that is not within the UL.
It's sad that we even have to talk about this. I have no idea how to check if my bike's battery is in compliance, I'll try though. (Juiced Bikes) I haven't had any problems, but MAN!! WHat a crazy thing to worry about!
The problem is the many small cells in one big battery. A few bads cells may only need replacement to save big$. And work like new. Reman batteries by ul listed refurbishment. 2 cells out of 100 can save alot, plus look online it's being done by diyers. Welding, soldering, buying small cells only. You all need to address the small cell issue. Who is making and providing these cells thanks Geoff
At this point more severe regulations are required to separate pedal assist eBikes from the rest of these electrified contraptions. As a bike commuter myself (human powered, I know so old school) I've seen a few brutal accidents between regular push bikes and delivery drivers riding fully blown electric motorbikes in bike lanes. Battery safety standards are a good and welcomed 1st step in dealing with this, none the less.
Finally! Unregulated batteries that are not independently certified are too dangerous. As an ebike owner who charges in my house, I decided that I HAD to have a system with proper charging, so I went with Bosch.
I was surprised to see this was even a debate. I have never ever heard of bicycle battery fires in Sweden, and we have had quite an up-tick in the number of e-bikes. I have one myself.
I've also never heard of an e-bike fire in Sweden. Partially I think it can be due to there mostly only is a medium to premium segment of e-bike here. And mostly from well known brands. My neighbors did though have a hoverboard-fire, and they could not live there for two months due to the toxic smoke sticking to everything (even if it was put out in just a few minutes). Lyckeky noone was harmed.
This is smart. Most reputable companies meet these standards but not cheap Chineese brands. Any battery can explode as we've seen since we've made batteries. Some users dont help, leaving batteries plugged in 18 hours after its been charged, of course it'll catch fire. So can a toaster. I always charge my ebike in plain view, as soon as I see that light go from red to green its unplugged. I know my battery takes about 4-6 hours to charge from dead, never plug it in before bed and leave it overnight. Being smart helps, not just standards.
Thanks much for your vid & views on this lithium safety issue. I'm all for it. My issue is the power limits set by the 16 CFR 1512 restrictions of 750 watt motors & 20 mph speed limits. That's BS! Make them as powerful as they want, & adjust requirements accordingly even if it means licensing & insurance. I adore my 1,000 watt Bafang Hub, 52V 20ah LG battery, 108Nm torque fat tire ebike that'll cruise at 37 mph on flat surfaces & usually hit 15 mph going up fairly steep hills throttle only. It truly has replaced my gas powered vehicle.
I agree, with buying certified bicycles, but the bicycles that you sell are very small, the batteries do not last even one hour, the long day, 10 hours of work, you can have larger batteries with better performance
Thank you for this video. It remains to be seen if and what changes get implemented in Canada (Ontario) as a result of this. I'm sure legislators across the border are watching.
It would be bad for the bike business if battery fires become an issue for dormitories, apartments, and homes. Blanket bans would be required if no standards were established. I’m glad this is being addressed sooner rather than later.
In longer term, these batteries should become standarized in form and users should be able to select from manufacturers they trust, with certification and so on. And they should be removable instead being baked into frame.
I have many senior friends who have cheaper batteries, mostly bafang. I suspect that they have the ability to meet the new certifications, whereas many of the others won't. My ebike has a bosch drive, which appears to be on the safest end of the scale. My wife has a shimano, which I suspect is also fine. Unfortunately with all of the fires that New York has had this was inevitable. It could be 5-10 years before the rest of us see this become law, but I suspect the insurance industry will push for fast adoption of these regulations. So be it.
Bafang has actually achieved UL on some of their systems but most of what we see in the US is not UL. You might be surprised to learn that Shimano is not UL, but I believe they are working on it. Part of the issue is they allow 3rd party batteries so it can be difficult to protect their brand reputation in this case.
Not all Lithium ion technology is equally flammable - LiFePO4 chemistry are much safer than NMC (or NCA) chemistry, which contain nickel in the anode and often have flammable electrolytes. Yet the result of this legislation will be the market will be full of UL certified NMC batteries and lack safer LiFePO4 options due to lack of scale for certification.
Okey I understand the safety aspect and live in european country so I guess we already have more regulations in this area. but in the same time. Consumers will be looked in by big corperations like Bosch who makes it almost impossible to charge battery without they own charger. For example I want to charge my R&M tinker ebike via solar. But Bosch has no 12v DC charger instead I have to use a inverter to 230VAC back to 36vDC with a lot of effency loss. I know how to solve this problem using my own hack. What I do is use a 12v boost to 36v boost and charge it with a very low current ~36w which for sure is safe and probably makes longer life since charge time is longer less heat, (original charger is around 100watt meaning the original charger will heat up a bit more). Now with all those regulation rules they will for sure make it harder for right to repair and hacks like above will also be impossible in the long run. Now they get yet another reason to say "hey we can not let third party fix battery you have to be certified" similar to what Rossman repair talks about in the mobile/laptop industry. Now I know there are idiots doing stupid things and many cheap crap batteries and BMSes but they will not dissapear just because we get more regulations. Again maybe this is worse in NY. But how many fires has started on gas station because of stupid people smoking cigarette? I don't know just saying.. BUT there are othher things that could be done: It really is time for the ebike/powertools industry to get rid of *ION batteries and use LiFePo4 instead* since the chemistry in LiFe is much safer! Just my thoughts on this. Thanks for a great channel. Actually you made me buy a tinker two years ago after you "review" of tinker :)
@@Propelbikes I'm surprised they're not.. is that an invitation to a legal nightmare? If I'm in the ebike business one of my main concerns would be to stay in business. Having your products occasional blow-up isn't very forward thinking.
That’s really the best we have in many cases. The thought that the brand is scared enough about what might happen if there is a fire that they hopefully take precautions. There is a lot of misinformation as to what precautions should be taken though. That’s why having a standard is so critical
But do you guys know the real reason most batteries ignite , overcharging,diy batteries, batteries that previous damaged ? Or is simple classified as a e-bike fire and no further investigation is done so is assumed the cause is really do to poor quality batteries?
I’m glad they are passing this and I hope it catches on more places. I’d also like them to get a handle on more powerful devices. I don’t want them banned, but I want there to be rules for what are basically mopeds, at least. The Wild West approach where we just ignore battery safety and devices that wildly exceed ebike specs is a path to disaster. I think they also should have an inspection regime for people who are using them professionally. Make the cost low or none, but people who are riding a lot and maybe doing aftermarket mods should get inspected to catch problems before they burn the building down.
Imagine if you will a freeway packed with stationary rush hour traffic.. electric vehicles.. when one catches fire and a chain reaction ends up melting 20 miles of asphalt..
I believe energy density is likely one of the biggest factors here. Lithium Phosphate is a lot less energy dense and doesn't help to keep the weight and mass down as the market is demanding.
Wait!? You're telling me you're surprised that more than 50% of batteries aren't UEL Certified!?! Damn son, you shouldn't put yourself on blast like that my guy
I fully support battery regulation because it gives tenants a foundation for discussion and argument to prevent complexes and apartments from blanket banning e-bikes.
I think this is our only hope to be able to reason with that topic.
Unless there's a body like the USB standard there must be a government certification program because otherwise you get bad actors who push a product to market before it's ready.
Government doesn't have the right to ban anything regardless of what opinion they throw at the public. Also where are all the fires in china?
Fantastic video - glad you're addressing this. Battery safety was a large factor in choosing a Bosch system for my own bike. I'd hate to see the e-bike industry get squashed because they don't adopt basic safety rules.
I think most people just don't know, but that's changing quickly and we are happy to help in that effort.
Bosch on my Trek ebike was one of the main motivating factors for me as well.
I think we've seen safety standards for ebike lithium batteries coming for some time as we hear about battery fires. I just wonder how that will affect the many owners who have non-certified batteries in their bikes or how we might replace them with safer batteries. In either event, "safety first" is a good rule of thumb. Thanks for the info!
Yes Bosch a nice system but it's also not the most competitive in terms of w h on the batteries... Tend to be paired with lower wattage Motors
Jealous forces and there are always jealous forces have been sabotaging green energy every minute of every day... Why they made windmills ridiculously big... And they don't let anything roll down the road that doesn't have the potential to catch fire or explode... I don't know about y'all but I was told by the researchers that we would have solid state batteries by now? Supposedly years ago... I blame the occult knuckle draggers
This is a huge concern for micromobility in NYC. These e-bike fires will bring out the NIMBY even in folks that have been pro-bikelane. We had a fire in an adjacent building, and my wife, who is NOT an asshole, idly speculated "maybe it was one of those e-bikes." Fire is so scary and it gets in peoples' heads. Safe batteries and charging are going to have to become a part of urban infrastructure.
Totally agree!
Pre-emptively bought a UL certified e-bike because of your advocacy. Thank you so much!
Thoughtful discussion. I appreciate your commitment/passion for safe, quality products. Thank you for caring more than just about selling more ebikes at bigger profit margins. You are on my radar for my next ebike purchase, even if I have to make a road trip to your nearest store in CA. You exemplify integrity.
That's very kind of you. I believe it's the only right longterm strategy. If we want this to be a true solution we must think long term! Unfortunately, most are too controlled by outside forces (or money) and forced to protect their quarterly earnings.
Great video. It does not matter where one lives; single home, apartment, etc..., Having battery regulations is good/safe for all of us.
Well said!
Excellent Jornalism. I'm very impressed you mentioned other UL Approved E Bike's. I'm shocked that major E Bike distributors have been dragging their feet on this issue. You make a excellent Ambassador to the E Bike Community.
You're very kind Marc. I'm doing the best I can. It's definitely not easy.
It would be nice to see a list that had the bike co. that tested and certified their batteries to UL standards
We are working on this at the moment
Informative video that offers such a balanced perspective. I appreciate that you have empathy for people who want affordability, but are not afraid to take a stance and say that this is bigger than just individuals who want do things cheaply or DIY. Not enough people (or even prominent micromobility organizations) are willing to say that. We have an opportunity to have one of the best forms of local transportation available to us, as long as we make sure it's safe for our neighbors. It would really suck if a few bad eggs take this away for the rest of us.
Chris, thanks for the info, At this point, I have commuter, MTB and gravel bikes, have not felt the need to go e-bike yet but see it in my future. So I will be watching to see how UL certification goes in e-bikes. I am in San Diego, good to know you have a SoCal shop. Looking forward to more of your informative videos. Thanks for caring about the rider/consumer and the industry as a whole.
Thank you for the updated video, it's a big issue that needs to be addressed and is probably holding back sales of eBikes. It's unfortunate the high quality brands are also typically the most expensive.
I think as the playing field becomes more level we will see more quality products at a low price. It will stop the companies who just try to act like they are high quality but they really aren't.
It's not so much the bikes that are the problem, it's the batteries. From what I've seen most of the batteries that have caught fire are the inexpensive & cheaply made batteries that go on the very inexpensive conversion kits or cheap bikes. The fires seem less of an issue with quality batteries. The battery that came with my bike was a Bosch, I don't really have any concerns about it. Nonetheless, I did get a "fire resistant" bag to store it in when it's in the moving truck during our upcoming move. (Better safe than sorry lol)
I think your practices are lightyears ahead of most. Starting with a safe battery that has been independently tested is the best first step.
Battery safety is so important. I live in South Lake Tahoe California and earlier this week a local family’s home burned down due to an e-skateboard lithium battery charging in their garage exploding.
They don't explode. they don't have fuel..
I use commercial-grade, name-brand lawn mower batteries for my ebike w/Bafang BBS02: Greenworks 60v, Echo 56v and Ego 56v. Echo has the smallest form factor, it's very compact and narrow, so it can be mounted in all sorts of places on the bike frame. I use only one 5aH battery for short trips but I can add another 5aH battery for +15 mile road trips. Over-voltage with a 48v BBS02 is okay as long as you don't go over 61 volts in which case it will shut down with a 07 error code on the display. Higher voltages gives you more amp hours for the motor.
Great research, great communication. Thanks!
If my school teachers could only see me know ;)
To be human is to rise when you have to. Not when you want to. Realize you might have saved lives (or will) by flexing your backbone. I salute you.
I really appreciate you saying that. It’s definitely not easy at times but in moments like this it definitely feels good.
The main enemy of ebike batteries is heat. Don’t charge them in direct sunlight or someplace that’s not ventilated. Don’t overcharge-charge the battery when it needs to be charged (50% or under). Unplug the charger when not in use.
I try to be a responsible e-bike builder and owner. 2 things I want to look into. 1.) find out how to get certified to be a tester. OR 2.) to find a local agency to do the testing. I am also looking into rebuilding the bad batteries into good batteries.
I encourage you to look into that.
the NY law is well intentioned but sadly it won't address the low end ebikes sold direct. these are the ones used by messengers and delivery workers and charged up in (possibly) older buildings with substandard wiring. Thermal cutouts in the BMS are a great idea, of course but there's no substitute for keeping a close eye on your ebike when it is charging. The charging unit on my Specialized gets QUITE warm, and I can only imagine the fire danger if there were 2-3 bikes plugged into a 10A wall outlet down in the basement.
This is what they are trying to address by pushing CPSC with similar requirements. I'm sure it's coming. Definitely keep an eye on that warm charger. That sounds concerning
Thanks so much for the info! I wish more companies were like yours: focusing more on long term relationships and safety instead of cutting corners to make a quick buck.
Congratulations Dad! Yes, I think that this is the way to go with UL certification. Many of us live in NYC apartments and always safety first! And never over charge your battery.
The number of fires caused by lithium-ion e-scooter and e-bike batteries in the UK has surged almost 150% over the past year*. In London alone, firefighters attended 88 fires caused by e-bikes in 2022 - an increase of 80% on the 49 responded to in 2021. note , Many of the fires have been attributed to e-bike conversion kits which can be used to convert a standard push bike into an electric bike.
Good update to last year’s video. As I said in response to that video, legislation needs to be Federal on this and UL is an effective mechanism to implement it. We all need to be thinking about safety and sustainability. Buy less, buy better. I went out of my way to get my R-14 from you because of your values on safety and quality. Two years later with 1,000 urban miles, I’ve spent $0 on the bike other than brake pads. Charging always goes to spec and your comments about the battery management system quality is a very important point. Keep talking about battery safety!
Thanks for covering this, even though I’m in the U.K.
We travel with our bikes, I’ve heard horror stories about e-bikes exploding when left in the hot sun, and spontaneously catching fire on trains. We went through a phase where train operators began banning e-bikes, like the Caledonian Sleeper train up to Scotland. Luckily they reversed their decision, perhaps due to public pressure, but also because manufacturers like Bosch were able to evidence the safety standards.
How easy is it to get rid of a battery that for whatever reason needs to be disposed of? I feel like easily accessible recycling or at least, safe disposal options are almost as important as fire safety for ebikes to be viable and sustainable.
Good that this will be done, happy for you that your gut feeling of only selling brands that already follow some of the rules of other countries has worked out for you. We all know it can be done and it was mostly the cheap stuff giving problems and i mean cheap in how they are made not even the price of the resulting bicycle. One of the reasons i went for bosch is their long experience with batteries for tools that have been charged for decades inside homes and the willingness of the company to support these safety demands early.
Definitely, I am optimistic as the public becomes more aware of these concerns the market will begin to shift regardless of the regulation. But it seems like both will happen at the same time.
I agree, I just went to buy a bike and was convinced not to buy the cheaper bikes due to risks, but I think even the more expensive ones in my country don't have any certification...
Yeah, unfortunately the industry lacks clear standards, but fortunately that’s starting to change
Thanks for keeping us informed. 👍
Great journalism. Thanks for all the insights. I just bought my first mused e-bike and it never crossed my mind that the majority of the bikes out there are not certified. Any house wiring has to comply to standards, gas pipping has to follow codes, cars have to comply to certain standards, airplanes, electronics to such rules as EMC…
I fully support the reasoning behind these new bills. We have to develop and follow standards for e-bikes as well. That Wild West mentality needs to stop. Yes it is a pain to comply to all kinds of worldwide standards but many product manufacturers have done it in the past. No matter our UL, CE, TÜV and so many more. If Laptop manufacturers can do it so should e-bike manufacturers.
I worked for an electrical contractor for a short time and we had to clear all in coming appliances and devices with them for testing. I bought coffee grinder that was supposed to be ULC (Canadian UL) compliant. It was not. That's when I learned that not everything marked UL is actually UL compliant. I was talking with some ebike dealers in Vancouver on my days off and stated that when I buy my ebike it has to be ULC compliant, and demonstrably compliant. As a renter, I do not want my bike seen as a liability.
I hope they work towards making the system failure tolerant as well as attempting to make the system failure proof, which it never will be. Having UL listed batteries is great, having UL listed full systems is maybe a little stifling to choice and reasonable price.
How about fireproof charging lockers for batteries? Relatively easy installation, allows you to keep the battery out of the apartment, keeps batteries separate from each other, keeps bikes separate from batteries which is probably nice in case of fire, etc.
My guess would be that the flagship stores are going to sell the bikes without a battery and then give you a special code where you then can order the battery online and get it shipped to new york in the cases where they can't get them certified. However another guess would be that the bigger brands and EN certified batteries will be fairly easy to certify to UL. Another possibility would be that 3rd parties will make specificly UL certified batteries that fit in the standard bosch, Shimano, Brose etc. systems. And hopefully make it a closed loop with recycling, rebuilding, and perhaps create more competition in the batterymarket.
the ul standards and En standards are very close or almost the same. But UL safety standard needs to be national, which stops people buying crap out of town of Online. this might save the industry
🙏🏾👍🏾 Great Video, Thank You for the Update/Info. Well the Writing was on the Wall. Soon as I Started hearing about e-bikes and E-scooters Catching on Fire, I Started Getting Mad Because I Knew Some People Was living there e-Bikes/e-Scooters On Over Night. I Even Heard about a Guy Living his e-bike Charging In a Pizza Shop Over Night and Everybody Went Home, Came Back the Next Day and the Pizza Shop was Burnt Down. Also I'm Starting to Hear Something about Fast Charger as Well. I don't Know If People are Trying to Use a Regular Charger along with a Fast Charger or What But It's a Problem too. It's Just The Little Things That's Causing these Things to Happened. So We Can't Get Mad, Because Safety Comes First along with a Place to Live. But I Thank You Once again for the Info. I live in the Bronx where I'm hearing about a Fire Every time I turn on the News. 😌 And The Bronx is Not Alone. I Have a e-Scooter, and I Charge it While I'm looking at T.V. or On My Computer, I Would Never Keep My Scooter Charging Over Night. 👍🏾👍🏾✌🏾✌🏾🛴🛴🛴🙏🏾
Is Ride1up certifid with UL? and im i safe they use "52V 20ah, Samsung 50E 21700 Cells" and how can i protect my self?
That CASP 2019 report is pretty interesting. As an electric unicycle rider, I was happy to see that the 3 unicycles were all compliant. Wish I knew which models they tested
Are they counting hoverboards as e-bikes? Cuz they seem to go up in Flames a lot more often?
Certification will not prevent fires, though it'll help remove those that don't implement basic safeties to reduce costs (EN15194 requires some safeties while charging for ex., which is where most fire starts, but it won't prevent fires from happening because of bad handling) ... fire prevention starts with basic education of the buyer (don't pretend he'll read the instructions, this never happens) ... like "never leave your charging battery unattended neither in a flammable environment", "change your battery if it felt down", "never charge your battery right after using it (wait an hour)" and "you might as well buy this cute LiPo bag" to store your battery in when you're not using it and when you're charging.
I would go one more step and say inspection stations, including possibly an e- bike knowledge test for a license of sorts basic stuff inspecting the battery and bike for defects, good storage and proper charging protocols just so good operators can challenge restrictions that might be imposed
I suspect one of the reasons that early hover boards caught fire was the quick charge/discharge cycles. A teenager can flatten the battery fairly quickly, and heavy battery drain will heat them considerably, and then it's immediately on the charger, which also causes heating, and get back on the street as soon as possible. A saturday of riding will see the battery kept at a high temp all day.
Water on lithium also
Does passing this law will promise allowing storage in apartment
Going to hazard a guess that New York is going first because of housing density. If I catch my single family house with typical suburban setbacks on fire, I burned down my house. If a resident of an NYC apartment building has a battery fire, it effects multiple families.
It will be interesting to hear from universities that have dormitories. I know dorms have gotten fancier, but it's not been that long ago that plugging in a hair dryer meant unpluging your fridge if you didn't want to trip a breaker. I imagine that student housing authorities are watching this closely.
You're absolutely right! Many schools have already taken steps to ban eMobility solutions as a result of this. Some of the places that have most the gain have stopped before it even started. Hopefully with standards we can start to peel back the mess others have created here.
Your video was great. Lots of excellent info. You've got really nice ebikes in your store, a little too pricey for me though. Also, I'm looking for a folding bike and was about to get a MOD City+ before all this controversy. Now my gym AND my building are banning ALL ebikes, scooters and skateboards. UGH
UL listing is only part of the solution. Fire and health and safety regulations as well as building code specifications are also needed. Ebike batteries contain a large amount of energy and are susceptible to heat, damage and shorting (yes, even the UL listed ones). Having proper ebike battery storage is important to mitigate risk. People should not be leaving these in combustible areas.
This is not fear mongering. It is just effective risk mitigation.
Interestingly enough FDNY was also the first and perhaps the force behind adopting these standards as the firecode was updated last year. But we agree completely
Great to see some progress on this issue. Not sure this helps any, but we've been using the smart plug outlets to turn on and off power to the chargers for the bikes and accessories. I set the the smart outlets to run 4 or 5 hours, and turn them on with my phone when the bike is plugged in for a charge. That way power is automatically turned off after the bike is charged, even if I forget to unplug the bike. The smart plugs are cheap ($15), and possible provide a little bit of insurance.
Smart plugs require (a wireless) connection to your wifi. If, like me, you charge your EBike in your garage and your garage is not attached to your property, e.g. if you live in an apartment like most people in NY and big cities where bikes are most needed, then wireless connection to your smart plug might not be possible due to the limited signal range of wireless wifis. Taking the battery off your bike to charge at home solves that problem but adds to the danger that if anything were to go wrong in the charging process and fire were to ensue, then greater damage could result in comparison than if you had left the battery in the garage without a smart plug to charge.
There are some inexpensive and very simple mechanical outlet timers. You simply plug the device into an outlet, set its internal clock, plug your charger into the device's output, and set physical pegs in place at the times you want the power to cycle, one color peg for on and another color for off. The pegs trip a mechanical switch as the clock moves through the day, powering the timer's output on and off. Most of these can be set for at least two on times and two off times per day. Or, for this application, they can be turned on manually and include an OFF peg but no ON peg, so that at the appointed time power is secured until you manually restore it. Mechanical means it's very reliable and requires no internet or network connection. It's a dumb timer, I guess you could say.
@@rangersmith4652 Timer plugs are only good for 24 hours because, after 24 hours, they start the cycle again and again. So if e.g. you forget to turn it off and you go away for a few days, which has happened to me on a number of occasions, the power comes on attempting to charge the battery which may result in overcharging which may ultimately damage the cells.
@@mamadjun Availability of WiFi is not an issue for many of us that live outside of NYC. I worked in NYC for 25 years, so I'm familiar, and in the city, WiFi could be an issue for some e-bike owners, of course.
Today, my eyeballs tell me that most e-bikes in North America are sold to the age 50-70 demographic that do not live in dense urban areas. (Hopefully that is changing and in the future, I do think more e-bikes will be sold to younger people as they become a more viable alternative to a car or public transportation.) If you don't have WiFi where you charge, there are electronic digital timers that can be programmed for time of day and day of week, so that's something.
@@mamadjun Did you read my post?
Interesting insight, thanks for explaining!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wow, this is great. I see a lot of questionable bikes running around Vancouver, so hopefully they start mandating it here too. It's definitely a point of contention where costs go; I've already seen a few people say it prohibits people with much lower income from getting an ebike because the testing/certification tends to increase the prices. Even with the incentive(s) we have.
Individual batteries should be much easier to ul certify than a full battery no?
How many e=bikes are in New York city? What percent are catching fire?
I understand why NYC is doing this and why it probably needs to happen, but I completely disagree with you that there is no way to regulate in a way that allows for battery repair, whether DIY or commercial. These batteries are not nuclear reactors; they are quite simple devices. I am a DIY e-biker and kind of resent your implication, tbh, that DIYers are only recreational riders. I have been using an e-bike for the past 6 years as a partial car replacement, some of which has been recreational, but the vast majority of which is practical in nature: getting groceries, taking the dog to the dog park, hardware runs, landfill runs, et cetera. I own a R&M; but I also own a DIY bike that I refer to as a "bike tractor". I built that bike specifically to address the shortcomings for my needs of what is offered by the industry, out of components from a Canadian company called Grin Technologies. My wife and I also own a factory-retrofitted HP Velotechnik Scorpion FS20, and I own a traction system called the Rubbee X to use with some older traditional bikes.
I charge all of those bike batteries inside repurposed steel ammo cans; but in 6 years, I have never had a battery fire. In fact, most of the battery fires in NY have been caused by scooters, not e-bikes. One of the biggest issues I have with R&M, and why I probably will not buy a Bosch solution again, is because Bosch takes measures to brick your BMS if you attempt to re-cell it. But re-celling is a very straightforward process; a monkey could do it. There is no reason that a DIY rider wanting to save several hundred dollars could not submit to an inspection, just like homeowners have to do with DIY housing projects requiring permits (which, if they involve electrical work, are necessarily more complicated and potentially more hazardous than an e-bike battery re-cell). You could specify that DIY users use particular brands of 18650 cells that are tested and meet UL standards, which do exist and are freely available on the market today from Samsung, LG and Panasonic. There could be a permitting or licensing process for those wishing to build, repair or refurbish their own batteries, or businesses wishing to do the same. Recycling is great, but is inherently more wasteful than reuse. Why should I recycle the battery case, the BMS and the wiring if only the cells need to be replaced?
It is difficult not to see this as being yet another means of companies like Bosch, who as I understand it, is heavily involved in lobbying at the state and federal levels for this kind of legislation, to close out the legal DIY e-bike market and block right-to-repair so they can monopolize the market for themselves. It is legal to perform all kinds of technical work on motor vehicles and houses yourself, but it's impossible to regulate repairing a simple battery? I don't buy it.
Congratulations on your new baby! I hate to break it to you, but you already are an e-bike advocate!
First thing I thought of in relation to the US was how are they going to enforce that? It is good that at least there is movement on this issue. I wonder if instead of concentration on safe place to park the bikes how about a place to park the batteries, where they can also be charged. Some kind of safe, secure place where they are plugged in and ready to go when you go out. The 'bike' part of the e-bike is the most expensive part (yes batteries are expensive), but bringing the bicycle into my apartment is completely safe.
Good points for sure. This law change gives enforcement agencies power to do something. Previously they didn't have the means to enforce because there was no law.
I think De-minimis is a different rule. It is about de minimis limits of subsidies that companies in the EU can receive without it having an impact on competition.
I think here in the video the VAT limit in Internet trade of imported goods is meant, which is 150 euros. There is no customs duty on goods under 150 euros. There is probably an "Import One Stop Shop" IOSS system where importers can register, pay the VAT and that's it from a money point of view. Imports still have to be registered with customs.
Setting Safety Standards is what Governments are supposed to do to protect citizens, often from themselves!, UL74, EN specifications etc etc. I spent two decades ruggedising electronics used in Military and Automotive industries to IP68 with UL74 certified materials.
I agree, but the US doesn't really work that way. As I shared in the video we regulate after injuries and deaths happen where the EU regulates to try to prevent these things.
A few fires here over in the UK. Most fires of e-bike batteries come from unregulated batteries peeps buy online and upgrade their normal bikes to cut cost of buying an e-bike. I bought a purpose built e-bike with Bosch battery and charger.
Storing the batteries in facility separate from housing? Sounds good on paper however the batteries need to be kept at ambient temperature? Is a huge Factor... Besides security concerns
I've got a bike from China coming, will it be up to standards?
Is this going to do anything about the e-bikes sold through Amazon, eBay or direct from various Chinese websites with either no or fake certification?
This was a great video, very informative. I’m curious if there’s a law or something we can cite when speaking to building management as it seems some have taken a stance of no e-bikes period on premises. It would be good to be able to go back to management and argue that particular tested bikes/brands should be allowed based on fdny guidelines. Sadly, my building is one of these and I’d really like to join the e-bike community soon.
This new legislation popping up may end up being a PITA for the DIY community (myself included) but I support it.
I really respect you saying this
@@Propelbikes Aren't we all responsible for each other? I don't want to burn my neighbors out of their homes.
While not UL I did research and made sure my BMS had all the safety programming available at the time. Thermal runaway is a scary thing and you can't be too safe!!!
Going to have to grandfather in pre-law DIY bikes, I will not be throwing away my perfectly safe $700 pack.
@@ChrisB... No argument here. I think the main problem is novices not matching (or exceeding) motor draw with the battery output plus the cheap E-Bay & Ali-Baba batteries. Even bigger issues than the cells are the BMS & charger. With a good BMS & charger a battery should be pretty safe (under a reasonable load).
UL? Means?
Hi Chris, do you happen to know if the Stromer ST2 battery is UL certified? I actually purchased it from your shop several years ago. Anyways, informative video. Thanks!
what s error code 550
I DIYed my own battery because the majority of BMSs in manufactured batteries can not be monitored during charging.
The BMS I choose to use has Bluetooth which allows a phone app to monitor all aspects of the battery during charging, and/or
use of the battery. I am of the opinion that this Bluetooth feature is the best way to mitigate the risk of fire. Current BMSs are
nothing more than a black box that offers no warning that an issue is occurring! Bluetooth communication should be a mandatory
safety feature for Li-ion batteries!
My Hase brand trike with Shjmano STEPS is UL approved.
Have logically realized that these cheapest bike battery fires were indeed coming!
The other (unrelated) problem coming is the turning of bicycle trails into bicycle expressways!
Are you sure? Can you email me? I have researched this before and Shimano does not is not UL
@@Propelbikes You are correct. I went out into garage and read label. Not UL, but guessing same battery as sold with Hase trikes within Germany. Did not know how to email you. Not very computer literate here. Thank you for correcting the Wrong Information I presented!
Don't worry about making a long video about important topics. As long as a video isn't long really because of lots of fluff and BSing, then I am fine with it being long.
So if the batter's get UL cert. the dangerous goods fee should be taken off for transportation.
Are you suggesting that putting a UL label will stop all the fire's?
maybe rewatch the video and actually pay attention or is their something wrong with you in the head
I own a Bikonit ebike it had a battery recall on it. I sent the batteries to FTH Power to be fixed, lost a bit of range with the repair , but they are safe , seem Bikonit uses Bixtrix battery packs that have CE safety logo on them
Interesting. Just to clarify CE is not at all a test mark, it's just a mark that the manufacturer is in compliance with the minimum standard in Europe. I would not put any faith in that mark
From seeing how Li batteries burn/explode I find it hard legislation hasn't acted sooner. Here where I live one dealer has turned to selling Bosch systems only as you have.
I think many kick the can down the road, but this is an issue thats easy to support
What’s happens to bikes that are not UL listed? Are you just out of luck?
Its a sales laws not use laws if you already own one you are 'ok'. i say that with in this way since the whole idea is to keep you and your family / others in building safe. So i would think long and hard if you want to ride a bike/battery that is not within the UL.
NYC is working on a buyback/upgrade program, but nothing official right now unfortunately.
It's sad that we even have to talk about this. I have no idea how to check if my bike's battery is in compliance, I'll try though. (Juiced Bikes) I haven't had any problems, but MAN!! WHat a crazy thing to worry about!
I think above bike companies selling whole bikes, we need companies selling good conversion kits.
The problem is the many small cells in one big battery. A few bads cells may only need replacement to save big$. And work like new. Reman batteries by ul listed refurbishment. 2 cells out of 100 can save alot, plus look online it's being done by diyers. Welding, soldering, buying small cells only. You all need to address the small cell issue. Who is making and providing these cells thanks Geoff
I wish that the new battery tech was open to the public. There is talk about new battery chemistries that are safer than Lithium Ion.
I’m sure you can get some details on this through some of the Universities which are more open
my original charger for my ebike did go boom while charging, the fire safety institutions should look at them too
Maybe just a guess but I suspect user error, specifically running full throttle when cold.
At this point more severe regulations are required to separate pedal assist eBikes from the rest of these electrified contraptions. As a bike commuter myself (human powered, I know so old school) I've seen a few brutal accidents between regular push bikes and delivery drivers riding fully blown electric motorbikes in bike lanes. Battery safety standards are a good and welcomed 1st step in dealing with this, none the less.
Finally! Unregulated batteries that are not independently certified are too dangerous. As an ebike owner who charges in my house, I decided that I HAD to have a system with proper charging, so I went with Bosch.
I was surprised to see this was even a debate. I have never ever heard of bicycle battery fires in Sweden, and we have had quite an up-tick in the number of e-bikes. I have one myself.
I've also never heard of an e-bike fire in Sweden. Partially I think it can be due to there mostly only is a medium to premium segment of e-bike here. And mostly from well known brands.
My neighbors did though have a hoverboard-fire, and they could not live there for two months due to the toxic smoke sticking to everything (even if it was put out in just a few minutes). Lyckeky noone was harmed.
This is smart. Most reputable companies meet these standards but not cheap Chineese brands. Any battery can explode as we've seen since we've made batteries. Some users dont help, leaving batteries plugged in 18 hours after its been charged, of course it'll catch fire. So can a toaster. I always charge my ebike in plain view, as soon as I see that light go from red to green its unplugged. I know my battery takes about 4-6 hours to charge from dead, never plug it in before bed and leave it overnight. Being smart helps, not just standards.
Thanks much for your vid & views on this lithium safety issue. I'm all for it. My issue is the power limits set by the 16 CFR 1512 restrictions of 750 watt motors & 20 mph speed limits. That's BS! Make them as powerful as they want, & adjust requirements accordingly even if it means licensing & insurance. I adore my 1,000 watt Bafang Hub, 52V 20ah LG battery, 108Nm torque fat tire ebike that'll cruise at 37 mph on flat surfaces & usually hit 15 mph going up fairly steep hills throttle only. It truly has replaced my gas powered vehicle.
I agree, with buying certified bicycles, but the bicycles that you sell are very small, the batteries do not last even one hour, the long day, 10 hours of work, you can have larger batteries with better performance
Thank you for this video. It remains to be seen if and what changes get implemented in Canada (Ontario) as a result of this. I'm sure legislators across the border are watching.
I think it's very likely this will become the North American standard
12:37 when will we get a "use the right wrench" law
Lol! Good catch. Need some better stock footage for b-roll
It would be bad for the bike business if battery fires become an issue for dormitories, apartments, and homes. Blanket bans would be required if no standards were established. I’m glad this is being addressed sooner rather than later.
In longer term, these batteries should become standarized in form and users should be able to select from manufacturers they trust, with certification and so on. And they should be removable instead being baked into frame.
Its a beautiful day for a ride in The City.
I have many senior friends who have cheaper batteries, mostly bafang. I suspect that they have the ability to meet the new certifications, whereas many of the others won't. My ebike has a bosch drive, which appears to be on the safest end of the scale. My wife has a shimano, which I suspect is also fine. Unfortunately with all of the fires that New York has had this was inevitable. It could be 5-10 years before the rest of us see this become law, but I suspect the insurance industry will push for fast adoption of these regulations. So be it.
Bafang has actually achieved UL on some of their systems but most of what we see in the US is not UL. You might be surprised to learn that Shimano is not UL, but I believe they are working on it. Part of the issue is they allow 3rd party batteries so it can be difficult to protect their brand reputation in this case.
Not all Lithium ion technology is equally flammable - LiFePO4 chemistry are much safer than NMC (or NCA) chemistry, which contain nickel in the anode and often have flammable electrolytes. Yet the result of this legislation will be the market will be full of UL certified NMC batteries and lack safer LiFePO4 options due to lack of scale for certification.
Everyone with an e vehicle should have a fire blanket, when you cover you help slow the spread of fire...
Okey I understand the safety aspect and live in european country so I guess we already have more regulations in this area.
but in the same time. Consumers will be looked in by big corperations like Bosch who makes it almost impossible to charge battery without they own charger. For example I want to charge my R&M tinker ebike via solar. But Bosch has no 12v DC charger instead I have to use a inverter to 230VAC back to 36vDC with a lot of effency loss.
I know how to solve this problem using my own hack. What I do is use a 12v boost to 36v boost and charge it with a very low current ~36w which for sure is safe and probably makes longer life since charge time is longer less heat, (original charger is around 100watt meaning the original charger will heat up a bit more). Now with all those regulation rules they will for sure make it harder for right to repair and hacks like above will also be impossible in the long run. Now they get yet another reason to say "hey we can not let third party fix battery you have to be certified" similar to what Rossman repair talks about in the mobile/laptop industry.
Now I know there are idiots doing stupid things and many cheap crap batteries and BMSes but they will not dissapear just because we get more regulations. Again maybe this is worse in NY. But how many fires has started on gas station because of stupid people smoking cigarette? I don't know just saying..
BUT there are othher things that could be done: It really is time for the ebike/powertools industry to get rid of *ION batteries and use LiFePo4 instead* since the chemistry in LiFe is much safer!
Just my thoughts on this. Thanks for a great channel. Actually you made me buy a tinker two years ago after you "review" of tinker :)
Huge story. Thanks for updating us. Have not seen other videos covering this. Maybe I am not looking in the right places.
Are the major ebike companies adhering to this already? Specialized, Trek, Reese and Muller?
Many are not, R&M and Trek are, but many of the other top brands surprisingly are not. I'm sure this law change will force their hand though.
@@Propelbikes I'm surprised they're not.. is that an invitation to a legal nightmare? If I'm in the ebike business one of my main concerns would be to stay in business. Having your products occasional blow-up isn't very forward thinking.
That’s really the best we have in many cases. The thought that the brand is scared enough about what might happen if there is a fire that they hopefully take precautions. There is a lot of misinformation as to what precautions should be taken though. That’s why having a standard is so critical
But do you guys know the real reason most batteries ignite , overcharging,diy batteries, batteries that previous damaged ? Or is simple classified as a e-bike fire and no further investigation is done so is assumed the cause is really do to poor quality batteries?
I’m glad they are passing this and I hope it catches on more places. I’d also like them to get a handle on more powerful devices. I don’t want them banned, but I want there to be rules for what are basically mopeds, at least. The Wild West approach where we just ignore battery safety and devices that wildly exceed ebike specs is a path to disaster. I think they also should have an inspection regime for people who are using them professionally. Make the cost low or none, but people who are riding a lot and maybe doing aftermarket mods should get inspected to catch problems before they burn the building down.
NY FEE REGISTER AND LICENCE E BIKES
Imagine if you will a freeway packed with stationary rush hour traffic.. electric vehicles.. when one catches fire and a chain reaction ends up melting 20 miles of asphalt..
I wonder why the ebike industry has not adapted lithium phosphate batteries as some car companies have started to do so.
I believe energy density is likely one of the biggest factors here. Lithium Phosphate is a lot less energy dense and doesn't help to keep the weight and mass down as the market is demanding.
Wait!? You're telling me you're surprised that more than 50% of batteries aren't UEL Certified!?! Damn son, you shouldn't put yourself on blast like that my guy