Lord Slarr yeah agreed. I just love how dark it is (no pun intended) cybermen converting the dead, I see your point of the logic, but I love it when Doctor Who kinda tip toes over the edge of what is and isn’t okay for TV
Pretty accurate points made, god I haven’t watched this in yEaRs. Do you like the Rise of the Cybermen/ Age of Steel stories? I do personally and I don’t think we’ll ever get a good cyber story as good as that again.
I don't think it's as great as you're saying if you think we're unlikely to ever get better than it! Although I do like the story, a good mix of genuinely good writing and hilarious camp moments. I hate how robotic the Cybermen look and act though but hey the conversion scenes are decent at least.
Those poor, mistreated Cybermen. Its crazy that New Who has been here for 15 years and there's only been 3, maybe 4, episodes strictly dedicated to the Cybermen
I hated their presence there. The Cybermen with the lone one had a potentially interesting story building up in Haunting. It then goes absolutely nowhere in Ascension before the Master gatecrashes their story and turns them into the absolutely ridiculous and pure fanwank Cybertimelords. Are these showrunners trying to outdo each other with how much they can embarrass the Cybermen??
@@LordSlarr And they literally say they want them to become robots. It sucks that, apart from World Enough and Time, New Who doesn't understand that Cybermen aren't robots. Was hoping that, before Ascension aired, the Cybermen wouldn't march, they'd just walk like humans do. Apparently not...
I can't speak for Slarr, but personally I loved Capaldi in Series 10. He finally became his own, definitive Doctor rather than just an old Matt Smith/David Tennant knockoff. Series 10 itself was pretty solid as well. I'd honestly say it was one of my favorite seasons of NuWho.
@@mr.barcode3186 I’d agree that series 10 is brilliant and Is Capaldi is at his best. Honestly one of my favourite doctors. But I am a Moffat era fan 😀 except series 9
I also think Death in Heaven drops the ball by completely ignoring the HUGE revaluation in Dark Water. People are still conscious after death. Are we just going to forget about that? Or was that a lie concocted by the Master? If so, what purpose does it serve? This SHOULD change everything about the Doctor Who universe... but it just doesn't.
@@LordSlarr I see. I stand corrected. Still a big missed opportunity I think. It's treated as a groundbreaking revelation in Dark Water, so it's a shame Moffat just throws it away as a lie in Death in Heaven.
there is literally no aspect of Death In Heaven to enjoy, it's all garbage. Ok, maybe I'll give some leeway to Capaldi pounding the console, but that is it.
Dark Water doesn’t help the story as a whole much either, what with Missy just... hanging around waiting to reveal her identity, the Doctor deciding to take Clara on this adventure even though she’s very very clearly not in a fit mental state to do so, the utter waste of cool concepts like the dark water and the nethersphere, and the drama with Danny’s past just being completely unengaging. Add to it everything you said about Death in Heaven, and this two parter is just soulless trash.
Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways is pretty good, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang is enjoyable (if utterly nonsensical), and World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls is great. All the others are fucking horrible.
When I first saw the episode In 2014 I liked it, but when rewatching it a year later it was torturous. The fact that they then make the brigadier into a cyberman after he died is in such bad taste & just diminishes any good aspects the story even had & makes this the worst cyberman story in the franchise
Honestly wanted to leave the show with this story because of missy, Cyber Brigadier and Danny pink arc (looking back it was probably the best part of the story) I begrudgingly watched the Capaldi Era because I liked his doctor and my view on Clara doctor was to try prepare people for a female doctor. Capaldi's whole era is subtly or rather loudly saying " hey I'm going to be a woman next" It also annoys me because the Cybermen potential is never fully reached like in EVERY new series cybermen story.(world enough and time messes a great set up in PT2) but ended up leaving Twice upon of time for slanderous attitudes towards William Hartnell. (TBH I hate a lot of this era and the next series was when the show started to die. 9+10 as for 11+12 rather not think about it)
I don't blame you for not watching, I only keep going because occasionally we get a Heaven Sent and I really can't miss out on something like that no matter how much shit I have to wade through to get to it. You're not missing out on the new era much. At least there's far less smugness and the characters aren't up their own arse now but Chibnall has an extremely boring writing style which relies far too heavily on exposition.
@@LordSlarr my biggest complaint with Chris Chibnall era is he seems to not understand any of the shows lore he's butchered Cybermen,Daleks,Timelords,Master and the doctor I can't even try to watch a clip without feeling miserable to what's become of a once great show and from the information I've found on The Timeless Child just proves my point.
I'd actually argue Chibnall handled the Daleks really well in Resolution, certainly better than Moffat did. The Cybermen looked like they were handed well in Haunting but not after that. The Master isn't my cup of tea either but is no worse than the other new who Masters. The Time Lords have been made a mockery of by being killed offscreen by the Master for a petty reason though yes.
@@LordSlarr personally hated what he did with the Daleks it was the only one I tried to watch and hated it and that design what were they thinking even if it's repaired from earth materials. Also floating Cybermen heads is worse than them having rocket boots.
The design was shit yes but the Dalek itself was actually threatening unlike it was in most of the Moffat era. It could have been a classic Dalek story had the heavy handed father plotline been dropped or better synced up with the rest of the story. Yeah I hated the Cyberman heads too.
Dark water is good interesting ideas then death in heaven shits on it and it becomes boring not exploring any of the ideas to there full potential the cyberman literally do nothing this story Clara is rubbish it's so silly her talking to the cybermen like there literally not threatening at all makes the cyberman look weak and missy could have easily been swapped with river u wouldn't know the difference in there lines apart from a few villian lines from missy
Lord Slarr it's a shame as I thought capaldi was a great doctor just lacked consistent writing would love to see big finish do some work with capaldi one day
I actually don’t mind Dark Water, but death in heaven is pure crap.
Dark water is pretty good tbh bar a couple of terrible things. Moffat always gets part one right but fucks up part two.
Lord Slarr yeah agreed. I just love how dark it is (no pun intended) cybermen converting the dead, I see your point of the logic, but I love it when Doctor Who kinda tip toes over the edge of what is and isn’t okay for TV
The Cybermen in their original form was just that. They were very controversial in the 60s.
Pretty accurate points made, god I haven’t watched this in yEaRs. Do you like the Rise of the Cybermen/ Age of Steel stories? I do personally and I don’t think we’ll ever get a good cyber story as good as that again.
I don't think it's as great as you're saying if you think we're unlikely to ever get better than it! Although I do like the story, a good mix of genuinely good writing and hilarious camp moments. I hate how robotic the Cybermen look and act though but hey the conversion scenes are decent at least.
It's no Timeless Children, but its still a painful watch.
Not a high bar nor a free pass!
Those poor, mistreated Cybermen. Its crazy that New Who has been here for 15 years and there's only been 3, maybe 4, episodes strictly dedicated to the Cybermen
@Michael F Jesus, that's even worse
I wouldn't mind not having many Cybermen episodes, but it's the fact they're shoehorned into finales as nostalgia bait spectacle pretty much.
@@LordSlarr I mean, regardless of what we may think of The Timeless Children, the Cybermen didn't really need to be in that story at all in my opinion
I hated their presence there. The Cybermen with the lone one had a potentially interesting story building up in Haunting. It then goes absolutely nowhere in Ascension before the Master gatecrashes their story and turns them into the absolutely ridiculous and pure fanwank Cybertimelords. Are these showrunners trying to outdo each other with how much they can embarrass the Cybermen??
@@LordSlarr And they literally say they want them to become robots. It sucks that, apart from World Enough and Time, New Who doesn't understand that Cybermen aren't robots. Was hoping that, before Ascension aired, the Cybermen wouldn't march, they'd just walk like humans do. Apparently not...
Do you like Capaldi’s Doctor in Series 10. I know you like him in 8 and dislike him in 9 but I’ve never been clear on your thoughts about series 10
I can't speak for Slarr, but personally I loved Capaldi in Series 10. He finally became his own, definitive Doctor rather than just an old Matt Smith/David Tennant knockoff. Series 10 itself was pretty solid as well. I'd honestly say it was one of my favorite seasons of NuWho.
@@mr.barcode3186 I’d agree that series 10 is brilliant and Is Capaldi is at his best. Honestly one of my favourite doctors. But I am a Moffat era fan 😀 except series 9
He's okay for the most part but still has a lot of very irritating moments. Especially his terrible speeches.
I also think Death in Heaven drops the ball by completely ignoring the HUGE revaluation in Dark Water. People are still conscious after death. Are we just going to forget about that? Or was that a lie concocted by the Master? If so, what purpose does it serve? This SHOULD change everything about the Doctor Who universe... but it just doesn't.
It was made up by Missy, they say so in Death In Heaven but it is an easily missed line.
@@LordSlarr I see. I stand corrected. Still a big missed opportunity I think. It's treated as a groundbreaking revelation in Dark Water, so it's a shame Moffat just throws it away as a lie in Death in Heaven.
Moffat's favourite activity is thinking of staggeringly brilliant ideas then using them as throwaway lines in favour of some contrived drama bullshit.
there is literally no aspect of Death In Heaven to enjoy, it's all garbage.
Ok, maybe I'll give some leeway to Capaldi pounding the console, but that is it.
I'd just like to point out that 3 of the last 5 NuWho finales have featured both The Master and the Cybermen. Creative bankruptcy much?
Absolutely man, do something original and stop making the Cybermen the master's bitch.
Dark Water doesn’t help the story as a whole much either, what with Missy just... hanging around waiting to reveal her identity, the Doctor deciding to take Clara on this adventure even though she’s very very clearly not in a fit mental state to do so, the utter waste of cool concepts like the dark water and the nethersphere, and the drama with Danny’s past just being completely unengaging. Add to it everything you said about Death in Heaven, and this two parter is just soulless trash.
That's Moffat for you. He comes up with such brilliant ideas only to waste them by not bothering to explore them!
So how many of Modern Who's season finales were actually good? I think the only ones I liked were in Season 1, 2, 5, and 10.
Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways is pretty good, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang is enjoyable (if utterly nonsensical), and World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls is great. All the others are fucking horrible.
Mr. Barcode What about Army of Ghosts/Doomsday? It’s not perfect, but I quite enjoy it.
@@raydarable well, it was written specifically for 10/Rose shippers, so I personally can't stand it. But if you like it, then great.
@@mr.barcode3186 I feel like the season 4 finale had the same issue. That one makes the season 2 finale look tame in comparison.
@@raydarable fair. I despise Journey's End because it's little more than an RTD wankfest, and the 10/Rose ending is just the icing on the cake.
When I first saw the episode In 2014 I liked it, but when rewatching it a year later it was torturous. The fact that they then make the brigadier into a cyberman after he died is in such bad taste & just diminishes any good aspects the story even had & makes this the worst cyberman story in the franchise
I forgot to mention Cyberbrig, that's a terrible scene.
Honestly wanted to leave the show with this story because of missy, Cyber Brigadier and Danny pink arc (looking back it was probably the best part of the story) I begrudgingly watched the Capaldi Era because I liked his doctor and my view on Clara doctor was to try prepare people for a female doctor.
Capaldi's whole era is subtly or rather loudly saying " hey I'm going to be a woman next"
It also annoys me because the Cybermen potential is never fully reached like in EVERY new series cybermen story.(world enough and time messes a great set up in PT2)
but ended up leaving Twice upon of time for slanderous attitudes towards William Hartnell. (TBH I hate a lot of this era and the next series was when the show started to die. 9+10 as for 11+12 rather not think about it)
I don't blame you for not watching, I only keep going because occasionally we get a Heaven Sent and I really can't miss out on something like that no matter how much shit I have to wade through to get to it. You're not missing out on the new era much. At least there's far less smugness and the characters aren't up their own arse now but Chibnall has an extremely boring writing style which relies far too heavily on exposition.
@@LordSlarr my biggest complaint with Chris Chibnall era is he seems to not understand any of the shows lore he's butchered Cybermen,Daleks,Timelords,Master and the doctor I can't even try to watch a clip without feeling miserable to what's become of a once great show and from the information I've found on The Timeless Child just proves my point.
I'd actually argue Chibnall handled the Daleks really well in Resolution, certainly better than Moffat did. The Cybermen looked like they were handed well in Haunting but not after that. The Master isn't my cup of tea either but is no worse than the other new who Masters. The Time Lords have been made a mockery of by being killed offscreen by the Master for a petty reason though yes.
@@LordSlarr personally hated what he did with the Daleks it was the only one I tried to watch and hated it and that design what were they thinking even if it's repaired from earth materials.
Also floating Cybermen heads is worse than them having rocket boots.
The design was shit yes but the Dalek itself was actually threatening unlike it was in most of the Moffat era. It could have been a classic Dalek story had the heavy handed father plotline been dropped or better synced up with the rest of the story.
Yeah I hated the Cyberman heads too.
Dark water is good interesting ideas then death in heaven shits on it and it becomes boring not exploring any of the ideas to there full potential the cyberman literally do nothing this story Clara is rubbish it's so silly her talking to the cybermen like there literally not threatening at all makes the cyberman look weak and missy could have easily been swapped with river u wouldn't know the difference in there lines apart from a few villian lines from missy
The funny thing is, these points apply to every Capaldi finale. Part one is great but part 2 sucks balls.
Lord Slarr it's a shame as I thought capaldi was a great doctor just lacked consistent writing would love to see big finish do some work with capaldi one day
Still better than the timeless children and hell bent
Them episodes aren't canon to me that's how bad they are
That isn't a high bar nor a free pass!
You are... 6 years late lol. Jk, good video
Better late than never!
I'm sorry, but, I really like this story 😅
Fair enough! How would you respond to my criticisms? It's alright if you don't care and just want to enjoy the story!
@@LordSlarr You bring up great points, I will admit, it isnt very great. But I just really like it for some reason😂☠
Fair enough man.
@ that's understandable. I personally love The Underwater Menace, but I realize that objectively it's complete shit.