Not every villain deserves redemption, but all villains deserve context. Even if that context is they were born wrong in the brain, like Big Jack Horner, you still need it.
Palpatine is a great example of this, admittedly. While we can surmise how he rose to power in the OT, and seeing his life before Plagueis found him gave him reasons for his actions, he is ultimately an irredeemable villain.
The whole point of her character is to show how a monster can be made from another monster, what a bad influence can do to someone as opposed to all the good influences that the heroes grew up with. Remember that the big idea to just go scoarched earth on the whole world was her idea and not Ozai's.
She was born a sociopath with schizophrenia. She's not without emotions, feelings, etc, but she doesn't care about anyone else's. Ozai just encouraged it and granted it was probably hereditary. Her mother even wondered what was wrong with her. She was obviously just born with cruelty. Even with positive influences, she's pretty much born cruel. Some people just are.
It may have been "her" idea, but it absolutely emerged from Ozai's teachings and influences. She doesn't come up with such a horrid plan on her own. That comes from years upon years of indoctrination of ruling through power and fear.
I also want to add even if Azula did not suggest burning Earth Kingdom someone else would have. This did not emerge on its own and remember that Fire Nation wiped out Air Nomads during Sozins comet last time around.
Three people responding to this comment attempting to defend her redemption with "indoctrination" and "it was planted there." Zuko and Azula lived in the same house with the same family and had the same chances to go one way or another. The only difference being Azula was born first. Their mother loved both equally and their father did as well. So why did Azula go supercrazyfragileegoactingallatrocious and not Zuko? Why did Zuko get the Hero turn and not Azula? There's an image out there of Azula approaching Team Avatar saying she could be more useful to Aang as a Fire Bending teacher than Zuko, and it wasn't inaccurate in that statement, nor was it off from her portrayal as she said that in a petty and undermining way, just as she spoke to someone who'd been her best friend for YEARS before going in for what we can assume was a kill. This isn't just indoctrination, as Zuko would be the same way if it was. Azula was written to be seen as understandably misguided but also guilty of not trying to redirect herself down a better path. She still has blood covering her entire room at this point. To make a comparison, Reiju from One Piece is another character drenched in blood, but she DOES feel remorse for it. We KNOW that Reiju acts the way she does so her family doesn't beat on her like they did Sanji. Azula doesn't have that. She did what did and said what she said in full understanding of her actions and accepted that she is a monster. There's plenty of possible reasons for her mental meltdown, but the most likely is her losing. She's not used to it, yet she'd not only lost to the Avatar, but also her brother and both friends she'd bullied into near slavery with her power and status. Azula lost her mother's attention to her brother, or so she thought, but either way, it was another loss in her mind. Not getting to accompany her father was another loss, and was likely the icing on the cake as her mind probably went to "He doesn't have faith in me." This would leave her mentally detached from everyone she considered important, with the last person she saw before full meltdown being the first person she rejected. Azula's mind is a warped and twisted place, and her actions are not just due to influence, but due to ego. She is irredeemable in the long run, regardless of why she did what she did or who's fault it is. She knew right from wrong and ultimately chose wrong.
I think she was meant to be the dark foil for the main characters and though she was entertaining, that ugly cry at the end really makes me empathize with her and I think that's why people want her to have a chance at redemption. She was everything her father wanted he to be but it wasn't enough and it broke her.
She was only 14 so I can see a redemption arc as she matures away from her crazy dad working - she still won't be a hero but I like giving her redemption or sorts
@@AndalusianPhilosopher ... nothing HAS to be anything. We are exchanging opinions about art. I am not implying there is some kind of rule set some that has to be followed. I am explaining what I like and I am explaining why I like it. aka discussing art.
funny thing is she saw Zuko doing that, and knows how it turned out.. If anything, I'd see her pulling a Transformers Prime Megatron and deciding to just retire from evil because it's not gonna work.
the comics do get into the idea a little bit. they basically make here an anti-hero almost in the same way loki is where he does good things for absolutely terrible reasons. That is something that would actually fit her character very well and it does fit well in the comics
I can't see Azula getting better right away but... she's still just a teenager. She has her entire life to grow, change, and move past her trauma and childhood royal conditioning.
That's true, and why I was thinking that if she were to be redeemed it most likely wouldn't be until sometime later in her life, because as she is in the series, she's too far gone to be able to be redeemed yet. And even if she wanted the chance at redemption, she'd probably either be rejected by other characters still because they would have a difficult time believing she'd truly changed, or otherwise wouldn't want to be redeemed yet, be it because she feels she doesn't deserve it for everything she's done in her life, or perhaps because she doesn't think she needs to change because of her admittedly screwed up mindset
I’ve seen two paths of this character in real life I’ve seen someone who was a straight up douchebag in school, but as they got older, they changed for the better. Still a douche, but they’ve moved beyond being a bully and trying to be a good mentor. And then you have that person that was a spoiled little cuss that never got in trouble, but learned how to be better at not getting caught. To the point to where they’ve perfected the art.
@th3azscorpio She made her choices and she chose to stay on her path she can't be redeemed and that's why she isn't Zuko was born in the same exact situation as Azula pretty much proving it's not her surroundings that made her but her own choice to be a psychopath
I feel like Azula herself feels fear more than she feels love. That's why the belief is so ingarined into her, and why it drives her to madness to see it not recriprocated in the world. She feared her father, his disapointment, his wrath, his vengence, and his ire, more than she could feel the love of her Mother and Iroh. Fear is the ultimate power in her world, because it rules her. The fact that others can overcome fear, is vexxing, and in and of itself, terrifying. It cause her to question herself, to fear herself, and her lack of power. There's nothing more destructive to her than self-doubt.
I'm going to comment without watching the video yet. No, she was fine as she was. There are times when it is okay for a character to refuse to change or become a better person.
Also didn't fully watch. She could always become a better antagonist/villain. Make her go through all the struggle and come out without the change in her heart. Like Godzilla Goes to Hell. He came, he saw, he conquered.
she is a really good villain, Joker was a really good villain, maybe they can make it work. There is room for more as good as she is, but it is a high standard so failure is very high.
Honestly as much as i love Azula as a character, I'm gonna saay DON't redeem her, in this age of movies, cartoons and anime media constantly having the sympathetic antagonist redemption going, Azula is just one the tragic few that just doesn't need one, her charcter was fine the way it is, in great contrast to Zuko. Not every Villain needs a redemption, Context for sure and even origin story to understand what made them who they are but Redemption isn't always nessessary.
in the comics she goes through almost a similar deal to loki from the MCU where she starts to kinda do good things but for terrible selfish reasons. if that is the route they go then i actually don't have a problem with that.
Short answer: "No she's crazy and needs to go down" - Uncle Iroh Longer answer: She's fine as she is. Her lack of a redemption and catastrophic fall is what contrasted her from Zuko who needed to build himself up. Her losing her mind was perfect and a redemption story would be pushing it. It wouldn't be bad to see her again but it isn't necessary. Lastly, I like my girls with a few screws loose, if ya catch my drift 😏
Getting greedy is okay, high risk high reward. The bar is set high so if they get it right imagine how awesome it will be. Villain rating: Azula 9/10 Joker 11/10 Aizan 11/10 Agent Smith 11/10
Can see be redeem? Yes. Does she want to be redeemed? No. Honestly azulas problem is azula. Zuko and her have a similar experience in trying to please their father as while one gets punished the other one gets praised It's honestly so interesting how zuko is close to his mom while azula to her dad and because their mom is kind even azula at her most crazy can't convince herself her mom hated her just loved zuko more and ozai is so stern azula doesn't want to become zuko as she said it herself. The comic book probably adds a ton more to her anti hero side rather than full villain to see how her interaction is with her mother and the daughter she could never be. Could say more but it's because these characters are so layered a comment can't get the entire point across
Yeah. That should be the basis for ANY redemption story, not just Azula. It's like what they said in Bojack Horseman: "You are all the things that are wrong with you." Azula's biggest problem isn't her father's poor parenting. Her biggest problem isn't a lack of motherly love. Her biggest problem isn't a lack of support from her brother or friends. Azula's biggest problem will always be herself. Azula's biggest threat to any plans she may have is herself. The hardest task for her to tackle will be herself. Because she is her own person with her own opinions and her own agency to commit her own actions. Not Ozai. In order to be redeemed, Azula needs to actually reexamine herself and try to change her behavior. But we all know she would never actually want to do that.
@@frankielovejoy9928 azula just accepts herself as a monster which is probably her biggest problem just accepting she can't change. She does look up to her father who is basically the perfect being to her as fire lord and thought she was an equal to him but like zuko was just a pawn. Azula can't snap out of her high self esteem due to how her entire family is shattered and she basically scared everyone away. Zuko learned from his mistakes and changed gradually
@@ivanbluecoolit can still happen. Perhaps down the line Azula will come across something that changes her view on the world and learn to be humble. After all Korra never addressed what happened to her. Life can take you in an expected directions. And in fanfiction Azula redemption is done quite well. You can dismiss this but some stories are done very very well😌
Azula in the comics becomes a child kidnapper after finding her mother and abandoning Ozai.. so I'm not really sure where her redemption could even come from now. Unless some spirit traps her for eternity until she's forced to be better or something.
@@thedeathskeleton4957he does not harm children in any way. In addition the comic you refer to smoke and shadow takes place 2 years post show with Korras time still long ways off. I think redemption can still come. Much of the time post comics leading into Korra is unknown. Problem is Azulas story is not yet concluded and nothing about her in Korra. Beyond the fact that it is clear Azula does not succeed in turning Zulu into some kind of ruthless leader. But how does it all play out? This story is yet to be told. Also keep in mind Zukos betrayal in crossroads of destiny. Imagine if avatar ended on cliffhanger in season 2. Something let just say happens, and Avatar is no finished. No season 3 no comics no Korra. There will be people who would wonder how Zuko can be redeemed after such betrayal looking at growth he went though season 2.
It would be interesting for an exploration of character. She perhaps is able to move past her monstrous self, and even come to terms with events, but she still carries many of her old traits: constantly planning, condescending, harsh. But at the end of the day she no longer seeks people's destruction.
Redemption is a very hard thing to pull off. It works for Zuko because from the start he was always a conflicted but honorable person, yet still had to earn everything. The scene where Katara confronts him after he joins the team will always stick with me because she outright threatens his life it it looks like he'll betray the team again. Azula never showed any interest in changing and has done far worse than her brother.
It can still be done. Comics did expand her story a bit. Depends on the writing and how well it is done. There are great redemption stories for Azula on fanfiction. I mean before dismissing them they are very very good and written quite well! There are glimpses in the Beach. And her downfall was deeply tragic. There was no sense of victory. One UA-camr said that he rooted for her demise until her actual demise. You cannot help but feel sorry for her in final Agni Kai and it felt like she was not a villain at the end.
I think you're right, but if people treasure this girl that much, then what might be a better option is throwing her a bone. I'm not sure how ... but side stories can show a villain's sympathetic side and even touch on soft spots, and what could work is that it ends with the sad resolution that Azula is still evil.
An Azula remption ark could maybe work better as a gradual thing, across several episodes or maybe just character development that steers her in a better path while not a full on redemption, but I don’t really know, so long as it’s well done I’ll be fine with it
I've heard heard Azula's possible Redemption was an idea Mike, Brian, and Aaron had for a possible season 4. Apparently, Zuko would've been trying to help her redeem herself. I've always wondered if whatever Redemption story was already kinda told in "The Search" story. It's been a while since I read that comic, but I remember Zuko getting her out of an asylum to help him look for their mom. I think it ended with her escaping after attempting to kill her mom when they did find her. In later Comic stories she still shows up, but as an antagonist.
@@sincitty3323 The problem with redeeming Azula would inevitably lead to a Ulic Qel Droma ending. Not a bad ending but one where she would probably be shot in the back by an Avatar fan boy. Ulic Qel Droma was a former Jedi turned Sith Lord turned back to the Light. A Jedi fan boy was appalled that the Jedi weren't going to bring him to justice and murdered him in cold blood. He put up no resistance and the Jedi fan boy was still crowing how he had killed the big bad Sith.
What if she becomes treated like Squidward Tentacles in the first three (3) seasons of SpongeBob SquarePants, where every time she does something bad, she gets hit with karma trips? I would/could imagine that she might start seeing all the errors in her own ways over time.
I honestly think Iroh's opinion of Azula was his LEAST quality trait. Zuko had Iroh, Azula had nobody... the wise teamaster should have known and empathized with this.
@@andrewyang6901azula is genuinely evil, psychopathic, lacks any forms of sympathy not speaking about empathy, uses people's weaknesses and fears for her own goals, Iroh wasn't, plus "he killed many people", he was a general.
@@vincikeeper1581 This is incorrect. We get ONE single solitary glimpse that Azula is not a sociopath, and simply a cruel woman who was taught to be thus... it's only one... but one is all we need. When she makes Ty Lee cry... and then for no other reason than to stop Ty Lee from crying apologizes and explains herself. She feels bad, and repents. Just this once, and fittingly to the one character no one seems capable of being too annoyed with ever xD. Azula is not irredeemable 'pure evil' she's an adolescent TAUGHT to be a killing machine by the sociopath whose approval she was seeking. Azula. Had. No one. She didn't have an Iroh. She was completely alone and completely open to anything and everything Ozai wanted to teach her.
I like it when characters get redemption arcs if they are done right. Azula getting a redemption arc could be done well if they show her reflecting on her past actions with remorse and show her trying to make up for her past.
The creators actually said they would have redeemed her if they had the chance to animate more of atla, hence why it gets touched on in the comics, and why theyre exploring it here
In The Search, she kind of does have her own time to redeem, they touch on this topic. Azula joins the group in search of their mother, and has her chance at redemption. I suppose they’re expanding on her character during the search (it was *not* pretty) and maybe, just maybe, afford her the same peace and maturity Iroh has been afforded, despite his crimes during the war as a general.
@@TheJadedJameswell smoke and shadow takes places only 2 years past end of the war. And there are still so many years before Korra era. How things ended with Azula by Korra era have not been addressed yet. In fact upcoming novel is first time in 7 years her story is expanded upon. So far Azulas story ending is up in the air🧐 so a chance for her to change is there. It is up to Bryan and Mike and how they want to take Azulas story forward. Have to wait few more years before new stuff comes out from avatar studios.
Unfortunately that's just not true. Consider what you just said. " I believe anyone can be redeemed. But they have to actually want to be redeemed." There are people who will never believe that they need redemption and thus are irredeemable.
I’m looking forward for this comic. Azula is a great character, a great antagonist. For the idea of redemption. I think everyone deserves a chance at redemption. Doesn’t mean they will get redemption. Doesn’t mean they’ll want it in the end. They could just double down and stay as they are. What is intriguing to me about this is the continuing road Azula is on. She was the favorite child, she had everything figured out, but then at the end of ATLA the series her worldview gets turned upside down. And she ends up defeated and with nothing. The comics continue the story in both “the search, and Smoke and Shadows.” Seeing Azula continue this personal journey of hers. Will she continue to try and get the Fire nation throne, who does she ally with, what’s her next move now that she is no longer the future of the fire nation. What is her destiny? Azula is essentially put on the same road of self discovery Zuko was once on only much harder. As she has no clear goal to get everything she lost back, and has no wise father figure to help guide her. She’s alone with no one and nothing to support her. And she’s also way too interesting a character to simply put in a cell like her father. Also this might be myself also doing some armchair psychology, but I can’t help but feel like her constantly saying that her mom thought she was a monster was her way of reaffirming her own choices. She believes her fathers way of ruling through fear, intelligence, and might made sense to her, as she was incapable of truly putting her faith in others. It puts her at odds with her mother’s way of thinking, so she goes all in and sided with her father. Not allowing herself to believe that her mother did love her because she had to be resolute, and couldn’t have doubts that her way of thinking was wrong. Realizing in the end of her fight with Katara how truly alone she was. Could this next book give her the opportunity to grow and develop as a character the same way Zuko did in his arch? Or will she stay the same? I’m hoping the next stage in this tail for Azula will be a good one.
what i think would make sense is if they redeemed her in a way they seem to be doing already in the comics which is making her into almost an anti-hero that can do good things but is always for a self serving reason. in the comic where they find their mother and the comic after that one that is basically the way she is portrayed. so she is still a evil nutjob but she is a evil nutjob wanting the same things as zuko
People are just too accustomed and used to redemption arcs in literally almost every cartoon nowadays that they expect EVERY bad character to get one. AZULA works better as a foil and an antagonistic force so that’s why I think she needs to STAY in that role.
It's worse than that. They're too accustomed to _lazy_ redemption arcs for really vile characters who deserve only the "redemption=death" trope. Off the top of my head Catra from Netflix She-Ra, Loki, Reva from Obi-Wan, Negan from Walking Dead, Kylo Ren.
@@darwinxavier3516 I see your point here but to me Loki's redemption wasn't when he died it was when he realized that Thor new all his tricks and went through all of the things Loki threw at him and yet he still cared about him.
@@angelsnyder6381 Oh, I'm talking specifically about the Loki show that tried to redeem Avengers 1 Loki as if he had all the character growth of Infinity War Loki. Even IW Loki didn't really change that much as he was STILL trying to betray Thor for the tiniest of personal gain 2/3 of the way through Ragnarok.
@@darwinxavier3516 True, Redemption ARCS these days in mordant media have either lost their meaning or become skipped or half assed enough to become passable enough for People's eyes so they can simp about them guilt free and ship with the main character. I mean personally I consider Bakugou Katsuki's "redemption" from *My Hero Academia* feels a bit forced and in my eyes got off a bit too easy for his bullying. Same could imply to Catra from Netflix She Ra.
Azula's potential redemption was hinted at in one of the oddest places: the official Avatar cookbook. It's written as if the characters wrote and Mai mentioned that she and Azula are on better terms.
I agree that she shouldn't get a redemption on the context of the show. BUT its very important to note that the character of Azula is in a very different place since the tv series, as she should be, after everything around her collapsed. I think what they did with her so far has been my favorite part of the comics from what I remember. It makes a lot of sense that she'd change after loosing everything and being betrayed by the people she trusted. And it also works thematically pretty well, she represents a lot of loose ends the series left behind. How does Zuko feel about this? In a way his relationship with her mirrors his relationship with the fire nation even. He doesn't hate her, he feels sorry for her, she's still his sister, Helping her would be a good analogue to him helping redeem the fire nation itself
Yes, this, fully agree. I feel like this is the main reason Azula should be redeemed, I don't mind if she still chooses wrong, but I think it would promote a better message to have Zuko be able to finally get through to her or at least give her a chance.
i dont want azula and zuko to have a better relationship and her mother it just shows the tragedy of the family which was the point from the show i would hate if azula would become zukos advisor like no they always disliked each other because of the favortism or be friends with mai and ty lee again or have a mother daugther relationship with ursa which actually neer exsited i think her as a charcter should heal and stay with her new friends (fire warriors) and just start a new life and cut her ties with her family and past. and zuko wanting to help azula in the comics just shows how the writers make zuko look better or really good like i get he feels sorry for her but hes not a monk or really wise you cant save everyone espacially azula who is really damaged
I think having a redemption opportunity for Azula is a great idea, but if it were me writing I would put her on the arc, only for her to reject the final step and relapse back into the what she is. Failed redemption is a story that is rarely explored and this would be a great chance.
I actually agree but I really hope if they go this route that Azula had a real chance to step back to the side of "light", and part of her wants to. It will make it more impactful if she chooses wrong and has reason to really regret it.
Also I feel like it would be most "fair" for Azula to have someone try and extend a hand of love to her in that crucial moment and have her reject it fully, knowingly. Shady says her breaking the mirror after mirror-mommy claims she loves her is Azula rejecting her love but I think that's too ambiguous and it wasn't rly her, just a hallucination. If Azula's real mother or Zuko were really trying to get her back on the right path, esp if it's dangerous for them, and she still rejects them, mmm mmm emotional turmoil soup~ Can see a whole thing where she realizes she effed up and is like, "Wait, no, I was wrong, I'm sorry--" Only to realize it was too little too late when the other person, the only person who tried that hard for her, finally just says, "...I'm sorry, too." And leaves her to her fate... I meeeeean I kinda hope Azula somehow manages to choose a good ending too, but I admit it'd be most realistic for her character to... "Go crazy and need to go down". Sigh.
@@bhendri31not necessarily, the point of failed redemption arcs is to show the person has redeeming qualities and good but in the end *chooses* to be a monster, preferring to be a monster over facing the issues they may have. It is basically supposed to act as a way to understand the character without outright redeeming there prior crimes while at the same time reinforcing there role as a villain. The issue with giving every villain a redemption arc is in the end not every villain wants to, or feels they should be redeemed. Plus some villains might actually *hate* the idea of being redeemed since as one quote would put it "to rise someone up is the peak of arrogance, for you to raise someone up means they are beneath you"
@@Thastormable you see, the whole "having good qualities" but "choosing to be a monster" means there is no change to the character, thus no arc, hence why it would be pointless lol.
Technically there is little you could do with Azula after she was exposed to be creating all the trouble in the Fire Nation. You've either got to kill her or retire/redeem her. I suspect the end of her storyline will be raising Sky Bison's at some remote temple like that scene in Korra when we saw the origins of Raava/Vaatu.
I very much like the unscripted videos and hearing your opinion on topics like this as they float around the community. It makes me think about Zuko's character arch if she will get redeemed since they're almost polar opposites by the end of the series. The difference between Zuko and Azula was Zuko has SYMPATHY. That sympathy makes him think about the fire nations actions while Azula never questioned them, because what's there to question when you have no care for other people's regard or well being? If they do go down the redemption path, I hope it feels more like a personal awakening like it did for Zuko, and slow pace too. Because she has a lot to learn if she doesn't even understand the concept of love
TBF, Aaron Ehasz (former Head Writer for ATLA & the man who wrote the best episodes for the show) stated several years ago that he always planned for Azula to have a redemption arc. She would have found it through Zuko and he would have been the only person who thought that there was good in her. Essentially he would become Azula's "Iroh" thus making Zuko's development come full circle. Azula would then be a person who always overshares their feeling & apologizes a lot lol.
I’m open to an Azula redemption because I’ve seen it done pretty well in fanfic. The Azula Trilogy (heart of fire, path of fire, and soul of fire) redeemed Azula slowly in a way that didn’t dismiss her crimes or personality flaws.
Heart of Fire, Path of Fire, and Soul of Fire only works as stories because it was set in an alternate universe where the Water Benders are the invaders of the world invading the other three elemental societies, and the Fire Benders fighting off the Water Benders, so essentially you’re saying that the alternate universe stories should be declared as canon and be sold everywhere globally internationally in both stores and online as well.
I actually loved the state of the royal family at the end of the show (and into the first few comics) because it shows Zuko taking the time to visit his dysfunctional family even when they don't get along. It's almost sweet in that bad Thanksgiving kind of way.
Yes. Azula was supposed to have a redemption arc all along! Aaron Ehasz was beyond clear about that in a tweet. She was going to have Zuko in a similar way to how Zuko had Iroh. Zuko would have been a much different person without that kind of love and support. Azula has no idea what that is like. She'd learn from Zuko. It'd be a long and complex arc, but it was always the plan.
I am mixed with the idea. I think She could be redeemed, but not be able to be close to the main cast again. I am pretty OK if Azula starts doubting her world view, but she should be aware of the heavy damage she has caused in the series.
Azula is unironically my favorite character in all of avatar The Last Airbender. And part of the reason that she's my favorite character is because she is such an iconic, quintessential villain who we can all acknowledged is definitely a broken individual, with her own unique kinds of traumas that she had to contend with throughout her life. I would go so far as to say that she is arguably one of the most iconic villains in fiction, in the modern era. And I think partially because of that fact she doesn't really need a Redemption Arc. She is one of the few villains in modern fiction who gets to stand on her own without the idea that there is a Redemption Arc that changes the fundamentals of the character that she was. The fact is, not every great villain needs to have a Redemption Arc that pulls a complete 180 on their character. Not every villain needs to eventually come around to be one of the good guys. As she stands right now, and I say this unironically, I would rank Azula as far as villains go, among the likes of the Joker, 4 Magneto, or just about any other Marvel or DC Comics caliber villain that you could think of. And I think she deserves it. Between the writing, and the voice acting, and her own uniquely tragic character Arc as a villain, I think watching her rise and her downfall is one of the best pieces of fictional writing and character development that we have seen in animation history. And I don't think that she needs to be redeemed in order to complete her story or her character Arc. Honestly, if we had found out anything about her in The Legend of Korra, be it that she simply died in prison, or that eventually Zuko released her but her bending had been removed, I could have lived with that. I probably could have lived without knowing that she had any sort of a happy ending, or any sort of a tragic ending. Sometimes the villain is just the villain, and sometimes that villain does not change their ways, or make amends for their mistakes, or fix their broken past. It may not be the feel-good kind of ending that many of us have grown used to in cinema in the last twenty years or so, but it's still a viable ending none-the-less.
The redemption angle is fine to me. Like you said what Azula was, was the future of what the fire nation could have been, but now that the firelord lost, and Zuko runs things. Theres no point for her character anymore, in which case she can do the redemption story otherwise shes just never mentioned again, or dies.
Apparently the head writer of the show, Aaron Ehazz, said that he always intended for Azula to be redeemed. It would have been much more complicated than Zukos and he would have been for her what Iroh was for him. I personally like this. Her being given a chance for redemption is a fascinating place for her character to go, now whether or not she takes it is another thing entirely. She could break Zukos trust in an irreparable way and be left to sort herself out on her own, which depending on how that was done could be very effective. Also I disagree with your claim that Azula was always an irredeemable monster. Ozai was yes but he's a grown man who has presumably been given chances for redemption anyway, likely by Iroh after he was redeemed. And just like Zukos whole world view was shattered and he was left to put the pieces of his life back together Azula very easily given the same opportunity. I feel that the mental breakdown she has is proof that there's something in her that wants to be better but she's been groomed for so long to believe that she's good as is and that this is the person she needs to be. Azula doesn't need to be pure evil, Ozai is the only character that needed to be pure evil because he influenced the lives of his children.
Honestly, how I would do the redemption arc: I would have her go on a journey across the four nations and as she travels, she learns more about human decency and kindness, and in the end she comes back to the fire nation and opens up a dojo to teach her lightning techniques to the new generation of fire benders, and in the process, becomes kinda like Iroh in terms of patience and understanding.
I'm with you. While I'm sure it can be interesting to give context to certain events that aided Azula down this monstrous route, I'd ont think she should be redeemed. I will say, though, that I do hope this story is good. I only ever read the story about Zuko's mom, so I hope they can at least give the readers an interesting journey into the mind of the best character in ATLA
I remember I mentioned saying on your last video I wanted more ATLA. You’re a damn hero my guy I love your analysis, your cadence when speaking, your material and everything that makes you, you.
I guess because I have siblings, I kinda want want her to be redeemed. It be nice for Zuko to have a sister whom he grew up with. There is a special bond there.
I think a certain character from The Maxx . Specifically the main antagonist of the comic is an excellent example of someone who is irredeemable but you understand why he is what he is and that's what he's just looking for an understanding.
I think explaining WHY a villain becomes the way they are is important to context but shouldn’t be a defense or justification. Additionally I think this book will be challenging as most people who enjoy Azula enjoy her as a villain/antagonist so to see her in a new setting will be interesting. Ultimately I think I’d rather see a story about if she CHOOSES to the of redemption. Not every villain acknowledges that they were the bad guy. So let’s see what’s Azulas idea of redemption looks like. Maybe she confronts her mothers spirit. Or those she hurt. Or maybe none of those things
I think the closest thing we should get is like Azula taking a bullet for her brother which imo makes sense given what happened in the comics so far. Other than that, keep her evil
@@oliviarogers2808 Her relationship with Zuko HAS changed in the comics. She couldn’t go through with offing her mother when she had the chance and now actually wants him unharmed.
@@alexdeghost2729 that and she actually pushes Zuko to be a stronger fire lord. the way she does it is absolutely evil and wrong but it was actually her goal and it does work.
6:16 Zuko was evil too and he was redeemed cause he wanted to but Azula can’t because she doesn’t know who she is outside of being a monster for the Fire Nation
What makes Azula interesting in my opinion is that while she is a character fully capable of changing and becoming something of an anti-hero she probably never will. She's intelligent and hyper competent at basically everything, she's manipulative and charismatic, she's the perfect successor to her father in that way, and were she to flip and become a bona fide hero she would honestly be a better Fire Lord than her brother. But because she views herself as a monster she has self destructive tendencies. She doesn't view herself as worthy of love, the comics practically tell us that outright.
For Azula, redemption should be a long, LONG road, and one that leads to someplace she isn't super interested in going. Azula turning good would be like Aang turning bad. There's a comic in which Batman and Captain America crossover to fight Joker and Red Skull. In it, the Joker is fine with the plan, right up until he finds out about Skull's...political leanings. If the writers of the Avatar comic want to show Azula in a better light while still keeping her, her, I think something like this (but not specifically this) would fit better than a full-on Zuko-ing. Not a redemption, but a boundary.
I think a vary important lesson to learn that's not always taught in children's media is that not every one is worth you're time and effort and it's often better to cut off a relationship for you're own safety than to stay in a toxic situation for a small to nonexistent hope that you'll make things better. I know as a fact that I could have benefited from this lesson earlier in life. I think Steven Univers, and Raya and the Last Dragon actually have a horrible moral because of this.
The way I see it, if Zoko got a chance at redemption then Azula should to. We all love Zuko''s character and how he grew, but at the end of the day we first see him as a villain and for most of the show that is how we see him. I'm not saying that Zuko was some how worse then Azula, I'm simply saying that both Zuko and Azula were the result of a abusive parent and if the show gave all the redemption points to Zuko and not Azula I personally think that would be Hippocritical.
Nice video Shady! I disagree on some points so prepare for a long reply: I think when people say "Redemption" thay have different things on mind. Personally, I don't need to see Azula become part of the Gaang or be instantly forgiven. Her ending in the series makes sense, but if gonna show what everyone is doing after series, why not take a chance to leave the character at a better place than she left at end other comics?(even if that means that her character would leave her previous acquaintaces behind) Iroh saying that Azula needs to go down is funny in the moment, but it gets weirder when you remenber he was also part of Fire Nation military and that Zuko in book 1 did a lot of wrongs things. It feels a double standard. Azula did help Zuko return to Fire Nation in book 3, she could have told The Fire Lord that Zuko was seeing Iroh in prison, but did not. Zuko thinks she is messing with him, but that doesnt seen come up later. He still leaves the Fire Nation behind. As the audience we know why he did it, but in her pint of view it could still be seen as a betrayal of her thrust. Azula kept people away with her attitude and that makes sense, but I dont think we no one on the series attempted to reach out and show her the potential of a different life. Thanks for reading!
I think your to focus on just Azula’s character, I feel Zuko & Aang wouldn’t just give up on her if there was a piece that could be saved even Aang said “When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change” which fit where they left Azula
Zuko might not, but Aang never tried to redeem Azula, ever, for good and obvious reasons. She's insane and needs to go down. If Hitler had lived, should he have a shot at redemption? Prison was a MERCY for Azula and Ozai, their redemption, if any, should come while they rot there, and maybe then they can be allowed to have a positive impact on the other prisoners...
I think his focus is too much on the thematic role of her character, and not what's portrayed. Azula was clearly hurt by her mother leaving and blamed herself for it. Yes, she was already a grim little Ozai happy to kill and pillage just like daddy taught her. But that's just the problem, she was trying to be a little Ozai. She was trying to gain his approval while also controlling through fear so she'd never suffer like she did when her mom left. When fear stopped working she lost everything. And with Ozai out of the way her worst influence isn't around to stop Iroh, Zuko, Aang, Katara, Mei, or Tai Lee from helping her. Her thematic role is done, and all that's left is a scared lonely teenager freed from the abusive cult leader that raised her.
Azula already hit her lowest point and changed into a child kidnapper that aims to manipulate an entire nation and her brother, the Fire Lord, into being tyrannical. Even without Ozai, she's still evil. "Change" doesn't translate to "good" or "redemption" etc. Zuko and Aang have also both given her chances, and she rejected them, not to mention has intended to murder both, more than once. The way I see it, Azula deserves to be pitied because she's irredeemable.
@@thedeathskeleton4957much of her story is yet to be written. Her story extends only few years past the show and it was never addressed what happened to her in Korra. So there are potentially 65 years of unanswered time regarding Azula. Down the road she may change. It very simplistic to say Zulu and Aang gave her chances and she rejected. In redemptions you do not take chance right away. It is a process with wrong turns and regressions. Perhaps down the road Azula will find her way.
Dude you gotta check out the comics I love the art and Gene Luen Yang really captures the style of the show in his writing, though he and the artists GuriHiru left after the North and South arc and I haven't read past that yet but those first 5 arcs are really good As for the Azula redemption story, I'm not sure I'm on board. Sure she does deserve it but I don't think she as a character would want it. The reason why Zuko's redemption worked so well was because we saw that despite his anger and desperate need to prove himself to Ozai that he was a good person underneath it all. Azula on the other hand was always a malicious girl that didn't see much value for others outside of what they could give her. Hell she straight up tells Zuko that their dad is going to kill him and she did it _gleefully_. Like, "Dad's gonna kill you LOL". So unless she goes through MAJOR character development, I don't see her redemption truly working. I'll still give it a read out of curiosity.
My issue with "Redemption" arcs is whether or not it's convincing? Because too many shows do not put much effort in it. Can Azula be redeemed? Maybe, but she's a character that is going to need a lot of work to convince me that it is genuine.
I agree it definitely will have to be handled carefully. Such a story should be very introspective and focus a lot on the sociological issues and trauma that lead to such a thing. Something I believe would be very interesting to see.
You didn't miss much with the comics. Ham-fisted and contrived plots, characters breaking character, some goofy plot with some surprisingly charming Metal Bender students… Anyway, Azula doesn't need "redemption". She doesn't _want_ redemption. Even in the comics, she just kind of does whatever she wants. So… yeah. Also, that whole force-injected plot about Azula going nuts was very… _very…_ short-sighted, rushed, and poorly done. There was no reason for it other than people telling her "No". Granted, one of those "nos" led to her being the ruler of the Fire Nation, but still.
my question is, how *would* you revisit Azula in a post series context? I really don't know how you would make an Azula focused book with that context, other than to take this shot yes, it's important to understand her context and place in the show, but to my understanding, this is after the show after she lost after her world view was shattered what do you do then? they kinda just left her there with that revelation at the end of the series, which is fine for the series, but, imo kinda leaves the character on a cliffhanger? idk, that part is probably very much more subjective
I'd like to see... not a redemption, but Azula growing as a person, letting go of her past life,maybe going into self-exile, coming to terms with what a horrible person she turned out to be and trying to live another life. Perhaps as she's starting to turn grey, she gets a visit from Zuko who apparently knew where she was living for years and chose not to meet her for fear it would just trigger another fight, they sit down together, come to the mutual agreement that she's no longer anything like the terrible person she was when she was young, zuko meets his nieces and nephews and grandnieces and grandnephews and leaves truly happy that for once, he's parting with his sister on good terms after they exchange the words "I love you" (not in an incest way but in a platonic way, stop thinking like that!) Words they thought they'd never hear from eachother. Then, some years later she passes peacefully in her sleep, surrounded by loved ones and friends. I think that would be an excellent story for Azula.
I like the video and hope you do more like these. I don’t think Azula works as a redeemable person without abandoning what made her. Quick nitpick: the Killing Joke comic is around 1 of the first stories that made a sympathetic backstory to Joker in the late 80s. I think that story worked well if only because it presented the Joker in a different light as it is a choice he makes to be crazy otherwise he has to grapple with all the misfortune that befell him.
yeah killing joke did it perfectly. Yes he's insane, no it's not 100% his fault, but no he can't come back from that and yes he really does need to die.
I’m pretty sure the original plan if Avatar continued was for Azula to have some sort of spiritual journey where she changed so we could understand her better. The way that it ended with her in literal tears after being completely broken emotionally makes it seem like they were planning on having her have to be put back together. Now whether she would go full redemption like Zuko or simply get over her mental blocks and go back to being a ruthless antagonist, I’m not entirely sure, but I don’t think that she ever really had her full arc like you said. She really only just finished the very first part.
The worst thing Zuko did was betray his uncle (which happened in part because Azula used his shame to manipulate him) and attack innocents while hunting the Avatar down. Azula did everything Zuko did in addition to being manipulative and helping her father attempt a genocide in a sovereign nation she overthrew. If they are gonna redeem her, it's gonna be risky, but you know what they say about risk and reward. Although I stay cautiously optimistic.
Possible Spoiler but could be wrong: What I've heard is that the Azula comic does give Azula a chance at redemption, but just like with the TV show, she turns away from the idea because she doesn't want to choose a life where her fear and power isn't enough to get what she wants. She remains a psycho villain because she's too afraid of being anything else. It's just what I've heard and I could be wrong, but I felt on the chance I'm right I could give warning for those who want to read it themselves
@@June28July If anything maybe Iroh should be the one to try and drag Azula back to the side of redemption. He's been playing favorites with Zuko like mom has too, and Iroh might be the kind of Tough Love guy Azula needs to hear from, he might be able to force her to listen up when mom and Zuko can only try to persuade her.
It's a weird decision to quote Iroh when he killed countless people in his 600 day siege of Ba Sing Se whilst Azula was able to make it fall without a single casualty. Who really holds the moral high ground?
I just now realized that she has the same voice as Ashi which puts this idea into A new light of someone with a warped mind and ideas from the very beginning turning over a new leaf. However, one huge difference is that Ashi showed a care and loving wonder for nature and things that were outside her master’s ideal creation. Azula has the instinct to burn and torment things that aren’t immediately serving her in someway and even then they have to be doing a perfect job even her closest allies that followed her throughout the show.
It could be done but it'd have to be done right, I think it would require Zuko as well since the only family member besides her father and mother who cared about her was Zuko. Furthermore Zuko was the only person she ever truly showed kindness to other then Chnen (the guy who hosted the party they went to) but they trashed his place afterwords though. Even though she doesn't frequently show it frequently we see signs of her humanity, I think that if Azula were to get redemption it'd probably be based around her understanding love and empathy, maybe questioning how love overpowered fear for Mai. I imagine since she was banishing everyone at the end that she probably has trust issues too, in a way her own downfall was based on her belief in Fear being the best way to build relationships, it's the reason why Mai leaving her triggers her so much and when Ozai treating her like Zuko upsets her, I think she didn't realize it but being looked down by her father the only man she truly respected up to this point was also an example of a relationship dictated by fear. When Zuko was around he was the scape-goat, but with him gone the fears that Ozai use to control her become more noticible, essentially she's scared of being treated unfavorably by her father, and Ozai takes advantage of this most noticibly at the end, when Azula has her mental breakdown due to be betrayed by the only realitive in her she had left. When Azula betrayed Zuko he still had Iroh and bonds of trust but when Ozai betrayed Zuko she had nothing, she never truly bonded with anyone else instead ruling with fear so basically her Arc would probably be about how one can maintain relationships without using power or rather, what makes a bond of Love stronger than a bond of Fear.
From what I can remember of the comics, I think they set up a potential redemption for her pretty well. But other than her blue flames looking cool, I don't have any strong opinions on her character. although if it does turn out she isn't going to be redeemed then will Aang take away her bending?
I’m okay with her getting a chance at redemption as long as it is to solidify she is evil and maybe along the way she does discover and reflect on some things and in the end she realizes there may have been some things that led to her becoming the monster she is but she likes it and she’s good at it
Ok, i'm gonna put a SPOILER WARNING here before i put my view point because it has some spoilers of the comic where they go to find Zukos mum. In the comic Zuko ask for Azulas help to find their mother and they go together to find her. While this is happening Iroh is in charge of the Fire Nation. At the beginning i found it weird that he was cool with that decision, after what he said in the show, but then i thought "what if bringing their mother back was the only way to save Azula, not only from the Fire Nation, but also from herself, from all that paranoia and feeling of everyone trying to hurt her". But that's just my opinion
Some characters don’t really deserve a redemption, it only works if you have sympathy for a character. A few characters I can think of are Mr. Freeze and Baby Doll from Batman or Gentle Criminal and La Brava from My Hero Academia . I could easily see that at some point that Aang took Azula’s fire bending, requested by Zuko and Katara. I don’t know if that would work as a redemption arc, but I do think she has to have a somewhat same fate as her father.
You should only get redeption if you want it. And she didn't wanted it, she wanted power. Now its popular to give every villain a redemption arc and its so dull and boring
i think with azula it would be interesting for her to have a chance at redemption but not be redeemed or something like that because she's the scorpion from the scorpion and the frog what she did is in her nature(what i'm saying is nature effects nurture and vice versa).
retort. The fact that her world view is shattered and the fact she is a child means she deserves a chance to become a different person. I'm not saying she wasn't evil. If it came down to it if the only way to stop her from hurting others was to kill her then they should have killed her. But now that they haven't killed her, what is she going to do as a character? Stew away in a cell as all that she thought was true is proven false. Either she just goes crazy and you put her in a straight jacket or she comes to terms with reality and becomes a different person. I think the second option is more fun.
There's ways I think this could work, and ways it couldn't. If this redemption stuff is Anyone's idea but her own then I think it will fall flat. She only respects herself. If she herself realizes something is wrong and chooses to investigate herself, this might work. I don't think she could change while she's in the middle of being challenged by a rival- she will tunnel vision onto the fight in front of her instead of listening. And also honestly I would love to see Azula break herself out of the psyche ward and the Gaangs reaction to hearing that she's just loose somewhere
I honesty think most characters can get a redemption, but its about what fits into/ works with the story. Azulas canon ending worked perfectly, and fitting a redemption into a comic book will probably not work Edit: so this is basically what you said lol
Perhaps not into one comic. But it can work in a series of comics. It can work in a spinoff series. I know that from avatar studios lots of new contents comes out.
I feel like, if they go the route of her being beyond redemption, this will be her final story. My theory is that she’ll be given one final cosmic chance to be better than what she is, and she still won’t take it.
As I have said before there is not much you can do with Azula after she pretended to be a spirit. You either have to kill her or retire/reform her. Her story arc is coming to an end. After everything she's done there is no way she could ever be part the world. Katara may be the only member of team Avatar who will absolutely refuse to believe her redeemed. But I doubt most of the world would except Azula as a reformed villain either. Azula will be under attack by who hate the Fire Nation.
@@72Workerpeople in avatar world are more forgiving than in real life. If Katara accepted Zuko after he betrayed her personally if Azula put genuine effort to change I think team avatar will accept her. I mean when you have a nation that caused so much pain and suffering for 100 years, many will hate everything about fire nation and not just Azula. Team avatar suffered not just from Azula but whole fire nation, and they forgave fire nation. I mean put yourself in Aangs position. Would you be able to forgive a nation that wiped out your culture. Also Aang was optimistic about Azula changing, and Zuko has shown that he wants Azula be better and reach out to her. Azulas story was up in the air for years. Only now it is being expanded upon.
@@AndalusianPhilosopher For the record the Avatar world is not a Christian world. It is based on Eastern philosophy. Eastern philosophy is not as big on forgiveness as most Western philosophies. In her own mind I am sure she doesn't believe herself capable of being redeemed.
I just got up from a nap, still drowsy and looking through some vids to help wake myself up, and i see this video and had to do a double take. I could have sworn the title said "Should Azula get a doorag"...my answer is...yes.
Personally I think its going to be a fake out. For example maybe she uses "Redemption" as a lie to lure out team avatar and when she does have a shot at true redemption she does a "naw being evil is to much fun!" And betrays them. It would fit with how she was desighed as a character plus it was established that Toph can't tell when Azula lies so it could work if done correctly.
I've had an idea for how Azula could be redeemed that starts with her falling into a river, hitting her head on a rock and going over a waterfall, being presumed dead. The short version is that she is pulled out of the water by a fire nation peasant and fakes amnesia to live with his family. Originally she plans to live in hiding like this for years and eventually scheme some way to get at Zuko. However, not only does she come to enjoy simple country life, but over the years living with a decent family opens her eyes to how terrible her father really is. She realizes that she is happier being a beloved and trusted peasant girl than she ever could be as a feared Fire Lord. When Zuko finally tracks her down she has a crisis, but everything works out in the end.
There's actually a fanfic on ao3 that kinda follows that idea. The main difference isn't that she has amnesia. She just assumes a fake identity. It wasn't bad, as far as most fanfics are concerned. Lots of angst though
Well said. My read of the Azula character is that she was just rotten on the inside and all being under her father's influence did was enable that behaviour.
@@Gypsygeekfreak17 Not exactly. Like Shady said, a part of redemption is feeling repentance for the actions you committed, finding peace doesn't always lead to feelings of repentance, instead mostly leading to no longer feeling guilt for those actions.
@@kenslycarpel3140 dude have you seen the comic the search listen azula never had anyone to teach what was right and wrong zuko did i mean lets say for example that a kid a victim of his surrondings like it was a warn and torn country and he had to steal and kill to just get by another day and thats all he has ever known azula is the same she was around a pychopath she wanted some reconition from her dad azula went nuts im telling you man she just needs help
Azula shouldn't get a redemption, not because she doesn't deserve one, but because she doesn't WANT one. Zuko got a redemption because he knew he screwed up, he went out of his way to fix mistakes he made, and he understood that his actions had hurt people and took responsibility for it. Also from the very start you could see Zuko fight with himself over right and wrong. Azula doesn't want one, why would she? She see herself in the right, she doesn't care that she hurt anyone. Hell when her friends turn on her she is upset that they didn't fear her, instead of being upset that she did something to turn them away. You cant redeem someone that never thinks they are in the wrong.
As someone who found Azula’s final fate perfectly devasting and depressing, I think if done right, a redemption arc could be interesting, just as long as they differ it enough from Zuko, it could be her grappling with how she was raised and maybe seeing how toxic it truly was, I think that could be a very good story Then again, I think this could work just as well: Aang: You’re an irredeemable monster! Azula: What took you so long idiot?
the way they write her in the comics is almost how the MCU did loki where she does good things for terrible reasons. she basically pushes zuko to be a stronger firelord. now the way she does this is by kidnapping a bunch of children but the but the goal was to was actually to make zuko be a stronger firelord and it does work.
Not every villain deserves redemption, but all villains deserve context. Even if that context is they were born wrong in the brain, like Big Jack Horner, you still need it.
Scary didn't need it nor did crulla or half the early Disney villains of the Gold and silver era
Hocus Pocus 2 ruined the Sanderson Sisters for me
Palpatine is a great example of this, admittedly. While we can surmise how he rose to power in the OT, and seeing his life before Plagueis found him gave him reasons for his actions, he is ultimately an irredeemable villain.
If Joker can be redeemed who knows.
Redemption is only deserved if the villain genuinely wants it. Redemption is only earned when they can follow through.
The whole point of her character is to show how a monster can be made from another monster, what a bad influence can do to someone as opposed to all the good influences that the heroes grew up with. Remember that the big idea to just go scoarched earth on the whole world was her idea and not Ozai's.
She was born a sociopath with schizophrenia. She's not without emotions, feelings, etc, but she doesn't care about anyone else's.
Ozai just encouraged it and granted it was probably hereditary.
Her mother even wondered what was wrong with her. She was obviously just born with cruelty.
Even with positive influences, she's pretty much born cruel. Some people just are.
It may have been "her" idea, but it absolutely emerged from Ozai's teachings and influences. She doesn't come up with such a horrid plan on her own. That comes from years upon years of indoctrination of ruling through power and fear.
Ozai probably planted this idea on her, remember besides being really competent she was only 14yo when the show aired
I also want to add even if Azula did not suggest burning Earth Kingdom someone else would have.
This did not emerge on its own and remember that Fire Nation wiped out Air Nomads during Sozins comet last time around.
Three people responding to this comment attempting to defend her redemption with "indoctrination" and "it was planted there." Zuko and Azula lived in the same house with the same family and had the same chances to go one way or another. The only difference being Azula was born first. Their mother loved both equally and their father did as well. So why did Azula go supercrazyfragileegoactingallatrocious and not Zuko? Why did Zuko get the Hero turn and not Azula? There's an image out there of Azula approaching Team Avatar saying she could be more useful to Aang as a Fire Bending teacher than Zuko, and it wasn't inaccurate in that statement, nor was it off from her portrayal as she said that in a petty and undermining way, just as she spoke to someone who'd been her best friend for YEARS before going in for what we can assume was a kill. This isn't just indoctrination, as Zuko would be the same way if it was. Azula was written to be seen as understandably misguided but also guilty of not trying to redirect herself down a better path. She still has blood covering her entire room at this point. To make a comparison, Reiju from One Piece is another character drenched in blood, but she DOES feel remorse for it. We KNOW that Reiju acts the way she does so her family doesn't beat on her like they did Sanji. Azula doesn't have that. She did what did and said what she said in full understanding of her actions and accepted that she is a monster. There's plenty of possible reasons for her mental meltdown, but the most likely is her losing. She's not used to it, yet she'd not only lost to the Avatar, but also her brother and both friends she'd bullied into near slavery with her power and status. Azula lost her mother's attention to her brother, or so she thought, but either way, it was another loss in her mind. Not getting to accompany her father was another loss, and was likely the icing on the cake as her mind probably went to "He doesn't have faith in me." This would leave her mentally detached from everyone she considered important, with the last person she saw before full meltdown being the first person she rejected. Azula's mind is a warped and twisted place, and her actions are not just due to influence, but due to ego. She is irredeemable in the long run, regardless of why she did what she did or who's fault it is. She knew right from wrong and ultimately chose wrong.
I think she was meant to be the dark foil for the main characters and though she was entertaining, that ugly cry at the end really makes me empathize with her and I think that's why people want her to have a chance at redemption. She was everything her father wanted he to be but it wasn't enough and it broke her.
She was only 14 so I can see a redemption arc as she matures away from her crazy dad working - she still won't be a hero but I like giving her redemption or sorts
@@Izamota-q5v As shady said that would make sense for a real person, but for this fictional character it detracts from the power of the story.
@@William-the-Guystories do not need to be set in stone. Meaning that there are many ways of telling a story.
@@AndalusianPhilosopher ... nothing HAS to be anything. We are exchanging opinions about art. I am not implying there is some kind of rule set some that has to be followed. I am explaining what I like and I am explaining why I like it. aka discussing art.
@@William-the-Guy fair enough and I respect your opinion.
It could be interesting if it ends with her failing the redemption or doubling down on her past actions.
I'm hoping that's the case
she was a really good villain.
That's what I would do with her
funny thing is she saw Zuko doing that, and knows how it turned out..
If anything, I'd see her pulling a Transformers Prime Megatron and deciding to just retire from evil because it's not gonna work.
the comics do get into the idea a little bit. they basically make here an anti-hero almost in the same way loki is where he does good things for absolutely terrible reasons. That is something that would actually fit her character very well and it does fit well in the comics
I can't see Azula getting better right away but... she's still just a teenager. She has her entire life to grow, change, and move past her trauma and childhood royal conditioning.
That's true, and why I was thinking that if she were to be redeemed it most likely wouldn't be until sometime later in her life, because as she is in the series, she's too far gone to be able to be redeemed yet. And even if she wanted the chance at redemption, she'd probably either be rejected by other characters still because they would have a difficult time believing she'd truly changed, or otherwise wouldn't want to be redeemed yet, be it because she feels she doesn't deserve it for everything she's done in her life, or perhaps because she doesn't think she needs to change because of her admittedly screwed up mindset
I’ve seen two paths of this character in real life
I’ve seen someone who was a straight up douchebag in school, but as they got older, they changed for the better. Still a douche, but they’ve moved beyond being a bully and trying to be a good mentor.
And then you have that person that was a spoiled little cuss that never got in trouble, but learned how to be better at not getting caught. To the point to where they’ve perfected the art.
Exactly, which is why she should be redeemed. It would be absolutely cruel to leave her broken, so young.
I don’t think she should COMPLETELY redeemed, but have her face the mental state she’s in, the abuse and trauma she went with
@th3azscorpio She made her choices and she chose to stay on her path she can't be redeemed and that's why she isn't Zuko was born in the same exact situation as Azula pretty much proving it's not her surroundings that made her but her own choice to be a psychopath
I feel like Azula herself feels fear more than she feels love. That's why the belief is so ingarined into her, and why it drives her to madness to see it not recriprocated in the world. She feared her father, his disapointment, his wrath, his vengence, and his ire, more than she could feel the love of her Mother and Iroh. Fear is the ultimate power in her world, because it rules her. The fact that others can overcome fear, is vexxing, and in and of itself, terrifying. It cause her to question herself, to fear herself, and her lack of power. There's nothing more destructive to her than self-doubt.
I'm going to comment without watching the video yet.
No, she was fine as she was. There are times when it is okay for a character to refuse to change or become a better person.
Also didn't fully watch. She could always become a better antagonist/villain. Make her go through all the struggle and come out without the change in her heart. Like Godzilla Goes to Hell. He came, he saw, he conquered.
she is a really good villain, Joker was a really good villain, maybe they can make it work. There is room for more as good as she is, but it is a high standard so failure is very high.
Honestly as much as i love Azula as a character, I'm gonna saay DON't redeem her, in this age of movies, cartoons and anime media constantly having the sympathetic antagonist redemption going, Azula is just one the tragic few that just doesn't need one, her charcter was fine the way it is, in great contrast to Zuko.
Not every Villain needs a redemption, Context for sure and even origin story to understand what made them who they are but Redemption isn't always nessessary.
in the comics she goes through almost a similar deal to loki from the MCU where she starts to kinda do good things but for terrible selfish reasons. if that is the route they go then i actually don't have a problem with that.
When you take into account her age and history she's a really tragic character. Plus people like a happy ending.
Short answer: "No she's crazy and needs to go down" - Uncle Iroh
Longer answer: She's fine as she is. Her lack of a redemption and catastrophic fall is what contrasted her from Zuko who needed to build himself up. Her losing her mind was perfect and a redemption story would be pushing it. It wouldn't be bad to see her again but it isn't necessary. Lastly, I like my girls with a few screws loose, if ya catch my drift 😏
Getting greedy is okay, high risk high reward. The bar is set high so if they get it right imagine how awesome it will be.
Villain rating:
Azula 9/10
Joker 11/10
Aizan 11/10
Agent Smith 11/10
…… Azula is a teenager.
@@CarpettinginMotel.townson she was a teenager 15 years ago
@@CarpettinginMotel.townson A. I had a huge crush on her when I was a child
B. She's fictional
@@mkj6724 I like my baddies crazy cray ain't got no shame about it
Can see be redeem? Yes. Does she want to be redeemed? No.
Honestly azulas problem is azula. Zuko and her have a similar experience in trying to please their father as while one gets punished the other one gets praised
It's honestly so interesting how zuko is close to his mom while azula to her dad and because their mom is kind even azula at her most crazy can't convince herself her mom hated her just loved zuko more and ozai is so stern azula doesn't want to become zuko as she said it herself.
The comic book probably adds a ton more to her anti hero side rather than full villain to see how her interaction is with her mother and the daughter she could never be.
Could say more but it's because these characters are so layered a comment can't get the entire point across
Yeah. That should be the basis for ANY redemption story, not just Azula. It's like what they said in Bojack Horseman: "You are all the things that are wrong with you."
Azula's biggest problem isn't her father's poor parenting. Her biggest problem isn't a lack of motherly love. Her biggest problem isn't a lack of support from her brother or friends. Azula's biggest problem will always be herself. Azula's biggest threat to any plans she may have is herself. The hardest task for her to tackle will be herself. Because she is her own person with her own opinions and her own agency to commit her own actions. Not Ozai.
In order to be redeemed, Azula needs to actually reexamine herself and try to change her behavior. But we all know she would never actually want to do that.
@@frankielovejoy9928 azula just accepts herself as a monster which is probably her biggest problem just accepting she can't change. She does look up to her father who is basically the perfect being to her as fire lord and thought she was an equal to him but like zuko was just a pawn.
Azula can't snap out of her high self esteem due to how her entire family is shattered and she basically scared everyone away. Zuko learned from his mistakes and changed gradually
@@ivanbluecoolit can still happen. Perhaps down the line Azula will come across something that changes her view on the world and learn to be humble. After all Korra never addressed what happened to her.
Life can take you in an expected directions. And in fanfiction Azula redemption is done quite well. You can dismiss this but some stories are done very very well😌
Azula in the comics becomes a child kidnapper after finding her mother and abandoning Ozai.. so I'm not really sure where her redemption could even come from now.
Unless some spirit traps her for eternity until she's forced to be better or something.
@@thedeathskeleton4957he does not harm children in any way. In addition the comic you refer to smoke and shadow takes place 2 years post show with Korras time still long ways off. I think redemption can still come. Much of the time post comics leading into Korra is unknown. Problem is Azulas story is not yet concluded and nothing about her in Korra. Beyond the fact that it is clear Azula does not succeed in turning Zulu into some kind of ruthless leader. But how does it all play out? This story is yet to be told.
Also keep in mind Zukos betrayal in crossroads of destiny. Imagine if avatar ended on cliffhanger in season 2. Something let just say happens, and Avatar is no finished. No season 3 no comics no Korra. There will be people who would wonder how Zuko can be redeemed after such betrayal looking at growth he went though season 2.
I’d be open to a redemption arc, but it’ll depend on circumstance and the story presented
Redemption arc aside, I was always interested in what Azula would have done with her life, her goals etc. after the events of ATLA.
It would be interesting for an exploration of character. She perhaps is able to move past her monstrous self, and even come to terms with events, but she still carries many of her old traits: constantly planning, condescending, harsh. But at the end of the day she no longer seeks people's destruction.
Redemption is a very hard thing to pull off. It works for Zuko because from the start he was always a conflicted but honorable person, yet still had to earn everything. The scene where Katara confronts him after he joins the team will always stick with me because she outright threatens his life it it looks like he'll betray the team again. Azula never showed any interest in changing and has done far worse than her brother.
It can still be done. Comics did expand her story a bit. Depends on the writing and how well it is done. There are great redemption stories for Azula on fanfiction. I mean before dismissing them they are very very good and written quite well! There are glimpses in the Beach. And her downfall was deeply tragic. There was no sense of victory. One UA-camr said that he rooted for her demise until her actual demise. You cannot help but feel sorry for her in final Agni Kai and it felt like she was not a villain at the end.
@@AndalusianPhilosopher I agree
@MM-xn6tn she didn't do anything worse than zuko, in fact, she's far less destructive than him.
I think you're right, but if people treasure this girl that much, then what might be a better option is throwing her a bone. I'm not sure how ... but side stories can show a villain's sympathetic side and even touch on soft spots, and what could work is that it ends with the sad resolution that Azula is still evil.
An Azula remption ark could maybe work better as a gradual thing, across several episodes or maybe just character development that steers her in a better path while not a full on redemption, but I don’t really know, so long as it’s well done I’ll be fine with it
I've heard heard Azula's possible Redemption was an idea Mike, Brian, and Aaron had for a possible season 4.
Apparently, Zuko would've been trying to help her redeem herself. I've always wondered if whatever Redemption story was already kinda told in "The Search" story.
It's been a while since I read that comic, but I remember Zuko getting her out of an asylum to help him look for their mom. I think it ended with her escaping after attempting to kill her mom when they did find her.
In later Comic stories she still shows up, but as an antagonist.
@@sincitty3323 The problem with redeeming Azula would inevitably lead to a Ulic Qel Droma ending. Not a bad ending but one where she would probably be shot in the back by an Avatar fan boy.
Ulic Qel Droma was a former Jedi turned Sith Lord turned back to the Light. A Jedi fan boy was appalled that the Jedi weren't going to bring him to justice and murdered him in cold blood. He put up no resistance and the Jedi fan boy was still crowing how he had killed the big bad Sith.
What if she becomes treated like Squidward Tentacles in the first three (3) seasons of SpongeBob SquarePants, where every time she does something bad, she gets hit with karma trips? I would/could imagine that she might start seeing all the errors in her own ways over time.
I love how even iroh, probably one of if not the most patient and compassionate characters in the entire show, sees Azula as a lost cause
Iroh killed more people than Azula yet he was redeemed
I honestly think Iroh's opinion of Azula was his LEAST quality trait. Zuko had Iroh, Azula had nobody... the wise teamaster should have known and empathized with this.
@@andrewyang6901azula is genuinely evil, psychopathic, lacks any forms of sympathy not speaking about empathy, uses people's weaknesses and fears for her own goals, Iroh wasn't, plus "he killed many people", he was a general.
Iroh should not be talking
@@vincikeeper1581 This is incorrect. We get ONE single solitary glimpse that Azula is not a sociopath, and simply a cruel woman who was taught to be thus... it's only one... but one is all we need. When she makes Ty Lee cry... and then for no other reason than to stop Ty Lee from crying apologizes and explains herself. She feels bad, and repents. Just this once, and fittingly to the one character no one seems capable of being too annoyed with ever xD.
Azula is not irredeemable 'pure evil' she's an adolescent TAUGHT to be a killing machine by the sociopath whose approval she was seeking. Azula. Had. No one. She didn't have an Iroh. She was completely alone and completely open to anything and everything Ozai wanted to teach her.
I like it when characters get redemption arcs if they are done right. Azula getting a redemption arc could be done well if they show her reflecting on her past actions with remorse and show her trying to make up for her past.
The creators actually said they would have redeemed her if they had the chance to animate more of atla, hence why it gets touched on in the comics, and why theyre exploring it here
I get your point, but two of my favorite Avatar fanfictions managed to give her a believable redemption arc.
In The Search, she kind of does have her own time to redeem, they touch on this topic. Azula joins the group in search of their mother, and has her chance at redemption. I suppose they’re expanding on her character during the search (it was *not* pretty) and maybe, just maybe, afford her the same peace and maturity Iroh has been afforded, despite his crimes during the war as a general.
She is still an outright villain as of the Smoke and Shadow arc though
@@TheJadedJameswell smoke and shadow takes places only 2 years past end of the war. And there are still so many years before Korra era. How things ended with Azula by Korra era have not been addressed yet. In fact upcoming novel is first time in 7 years her story is expanded upon. So far Azulas story ending is up in the air🧐 so a chance for her to change is there. It is up to Bryan and Mike and how they want to take Azulas story forward. Have to wait few more years before new stuff comes out from avatar studios.
Personally irl I believe anyone can be redeemed. But they have to actually want to be redeemed.
...Well, anyone can WANT to be redeemed, but it depends on the severity of what they did whether or not that's possible.
Unfortunately that's just not true. Consider what you just said. " I believe anyone can be redeemed. But they have to actually want to be redeemed." There are people who will never believe that they need redemption and thus are irredeemable.
I’m looking forward for this comic. Azula is a great character, a great antagonist.
For the idea of redemption. I think everyone deserves a chance at redemption. Doesn’t mean they will get redemption. Doesn’t mean they’ll want it in the end. They could just double down and stay as they are.
What is intriguing to me about this is the continuing road Azula is on. She was the favorite child, she had everything figured out, but then at the end of ATLA the series her worldview gets turned upside down. And she ends up defeated and with nothing. The comics continue the story in both “the search, and Smoke and Shadows.” Seeing Azula continue this personal journey of hers. Will she continue to try and get the Fire nation throne, who does she ally with, what’s her next move now that she is no longer the future of the fire nation. What is her destiny?
Azula is essentially put on the same road of self discovery Zuko was once on only much harder. As she has no clear goal to get everything she lost back, and has no wise father figure to help guide her. She’s alone with no one and nothing to support her. And she’s also way too interesting a character to simply put in a cell like her father.
Also this might be myself also doing some armchair psychology, but I can’t help but feel like her constantly saying that her mom thought she was a monster was her way of reaffirming her own choices. She believes her fathers way of ruling through fear, intelligence, and might made sense to her, as she was incapable of truly putting her faith in others. It puts her at odds with her mother’s way of thinking, so she goes all in and sided with her father. Not allowing herself to believe that her mother did love her because she had to be resolute, and couldn’t have doubts that her way of thinking was wrong. Realizing in the end of her fight with Katara how truly alone she was. Could this next book give her the opportunity to grow and develop as a character the same way Zuko did in his arch? Or will she stay the same?
I’m hoping the next stage in this tail for Azula will be a good one.
what i think would make sense is if they redeemed her in a way they seem to be doing already in the comics which is making her into almost an anti-hero that can do good things but is always for a self serving reason. in the comic where they find their mother and the comic after that one that is basically the way she is portrayed. so she is still a evil nutjob but she is a evil nutjob wanting the same things as zuko
People are just too accustomed and used to redemption arcs in literally almost every cartoon nowadays that they expect EVERY bad character to get one. AZULA works better as a foil and an antagonistic force so that’s why I think she needs to STAY in that role.
It's worse than that. They're too accustomed to _lazy_ redemption arcs for really vile characters who deserve only the "redemption=death" trope. Off the top of my head Catra from Netflix She-Ra, Loki, Reva from Obi-Wan, Negan from Walking Dead, Kylo Ren.
Exactly 💯
@@darwinxavier3516 I see your point here but to me Loki's redemption wasn't when he died it was when he realized that Thor new all his tricks and went through all of the things Loki threw at him and yet he still cared about him.
@@angelsnyder6381 Oh, I'm talking specifically about the Loki show that tried to redeem Avengers 1 Loki as if he had all the character growth of Infinity War Loki. Even IW Loki didn't really change that much as he was STILL trying to betray Thor for the tiniest of personal gain 2/3 of the way through Ragnarok.
@@darwinxavier3516 True, Redemption ARCS these days in mordant media have either lost their meaning or become skipped or half assed enough to become passable enough for People's eyes so they can simp about them guilt free and ship with the main character.
I mean personally I consider Bakugou Katsuki's "redemption" from *My Hero Academia* feels a bit forced and in my eyes got off a bit too easy for his bullying.
Same could imply to Catra from Netflix She Ra.
Azula's potential redemption was hinted at in one of the oddest places: the official Avatar cookbook. It's written as if the characters wrote and Mai mentioned that she and Azula are on better terms.
I agree that she shouldn't get a redemption on the context of the show. BUT its very important to note that the character of Azula is in a very different place since the tv series, as she should be, after everything around her collapsed. I think what they did with her so far has been my favorite part of the comics from what I remember. It makes a lot of sense that she'd change after loosing everything and being betrayed by the people she trusted.
And it also works thematically pretty well, she represents a lot of loose ends the series left behind. How does Zuko feel about this? In a way his relationship with her mirrors his relationship with the fire nation even. He doesn't hate her, he feels sorry for her, she's still his sister, Helping her would be a good analogue to him helping redeem the fire nation itself
Yes, this, fully agree. I feel like this is the main reason Azula should be redeemed, I don't mind if she still chooses wrong, but I think it would promote a better message to have Zuko be able to finally get through to her or at least give her a chance.
i dont want azula and zuko to have a better relationship and her mother it just shows the tragedy of the family which was the point from the show i would hate if azula would become zukos advisor like no they always disliked each other because of the favortism or be friends with mai and ty lee again or have a mother daugther relationship with ursa which actually neer exsited i think her as a charcter should heal and stay with her new friends (fire warriors) and just start a new life and cut her ties with her family and past. and zuko wanting to help azula in the comics just shows how the writers make zuko look better or really good like i get he feels sorry for her but hes not a monk or really wise you cant save everyone espacially azula who is really damaged
Some people are beyond redemption, but what's scariest about azula is ITS A MYSTERY
She is 14
@@griswo3272 And she is already a murderous war criminal.
@@griswo3272 still though, she is beyond that now.
@@griswo3272there was a kid that shot his mom point blank in the head for not getting him a vr because of his age should he be redeemed
@@griswo3272 and?
"when she committed all those war-crimes" is not something I expected to hear after "she was only 14".
I think having a redemption opportunity for Azula is a great idea, but if it were me writing I would put her on the arc, only for her to reject the final step and relapse back into the what she is. Failed redemption is a story that is rarely explored and this would be a great chance.
I actually agree but I really hope if they go this route that Azula had a real chance to step back to the side of "light", and part of her wants to. It will make it more impactful if she chooses wrong and has reason to really regret it.
Also I feel like it would be most "fair" for Azula to have someone try and extend a hand of love to her in that crucial moment and have her reject it fully, knowingly. Shady says her breaking the mirror after mirror-mommy claims she loves her is Azula rejecting her love but I think that's too ambiguous and it wasn't rly her, just a hallucination. If Azula's real mother or Zuko were really trying to get her back on the right path, esp if it's dangerous for them, and she still rejects them, mmm mmm emotional turmoil soup~ Can see a whole thing where she realizes she effed up and is like, "Wait, no, I was wrong, I'm sorry--" Only to realize it was too little too late when the other person, the only person who tried that hard for her, finally just says, "...I'm sorry, too." And leaves her to her fate... I meeeeean I kinda hope Azula somehow manages to choose a good ending too, but I admit it'd be most realistic for her character to... "Go crazy and need to go down". Sigh.
Eh....then the whole arc would be pointless.
@@bhendri31not necessarily, the point of failed redemption arcs is to show the person has redeeming qualities and good but in the end *chooses* to be a monster, preferring to be a monster over facing the issues they may have. It is basically supposed to act as a way to understand the character without outright redeeming there prior crimes while at the same time reinforcing there role as a villain.
The issue with giving every villain a redemption arc is in the end not every villain wants to, or feels they should be redeemed. Plus some villains might actually *hate* the idea of being redeemed since as one quote would put it "to rise someone up is the peak of arrogance, for you to raise someone up means they are beneath you"
@@Thastormable you see, the whole "having good qualities" but "choosing to be a monster" means there is no change to the character, thus no arc, hence why it would be pointless lol.
I think it matters on how far they've fallen. While not all villains should be redeemed, but no one is all lost.
Technically there is little you could do with Azula after she was exposed to be creating all the trouble in the Fire Nation. You've either got to kill her or retire/redeem her. I suspect the end of her storyline will be raising Sky Bison's at some remote temple like that scene in Korra when we saw the origins of Raava/Vaatu.
I very much like the unscripted videos and hearing your opinion on topics like this as they float around the community. It makes me think about Zuko's character arch if she will get redeemed since they're almost polar opposites by the end of the series. The difference between Zuko and Azula was Zuko has SYMPATHY. That sympathy makes him think about the fire nations actions while Azula never questioned them, because what's there to question when you have no care for other people's regard or well being? If they do go down the redemption path, I hope it feels more like a personal awakening like it did for Zuko, and slow pace too. Because she has a lot to learn if she doesn't even understand the concept of love
I like the one idea of Azula getting the chance of a redemption, then straight up throwing it away to really drive home how far gone she is.
That would be utterly pointless.
That would be awful
TBF, Aaron Ehasz (former Head Writer for ATLA & the man who wrote the best episodes for the show) stated several years ago that he always planned for Azula to have a redemption arc.
She would have found it through Zuko and he would have been the only person who thought that there was good in her. Essentially he would become Azula's "Iroh" thus making Zuko's development come full circle.
Azula would then be a person who always overshares their feeling & apologizes a lot lol.
That being said, I don't know if this comic would go that route. Plus, neither Aaron nor his wife would been working on this. So it's up in the air.
I’m open to an Azula redemption because I’ve seen it done pretty well in fanfic. The Azula Trilogy (heart of fire, path of fire, and soul of fire) redeemed Azula slowly in a way that didn’t dismiss her crimes or personality flaws.
Heart of Fire, Path of Fire, and Soul of Fire only works as stories because it was set in an alternate universe where the Water Benders are the invaders of the world invading the other three elemental societies, and the Fire Benders fighting off the Water Benders, so essentially you’re saying that the alternate universe stories should be declared as canon and be sold everywhere globally internationally in both stores and online as well.
@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr those fics weren’t set in an alternate universe. You’re thinking of something else
@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hrI think you have another story in mind.
I actually loved the state of the royal family at the end of the show (and into the first few comics) because it shows Zuko taking the time to visit his dysfunctional family even when they don't get along. It's almost sweet in that bad Thanksgiving kind of way.
Nobody talking how Azula has created the ATLA Akatsuki.
I didn't even know the series was still going!
Yes. Azula was supposed to have a redemption arc all along! Aaron Ehasz was beyond clear about that in a tweet. She was going to have Zuko in a similar way to how Zuko had Iroh. Zuko would have been a much different person without that kind of love and support. Azula has no idea what that is like. She'd learn from Zuko. It'd be a long and complex arc, but it was always the plan.
She definitly deserves redemption
I am mixed with the idea. I think She could be redeemed, but not be able to be close to the main cast again. I am pretty OK if Azula starts doubting her world view, but she should be aware of the heavy damage she has caused in the series.
Same can be said of Fire Nation as a whole. 100 years of war cause a massive damage. Fire Nation is lucky it was not Kyoshi that emerged from iceberg.
If she really didn't care would she have had visions of her mom?
Azula is unironically my favorite character in all of avatar The Last Airbender. And part of the reason that she's my favorite character is because she is such an iconic, quintessential villain who we can all acknowledged is definitely a broken individual, with her own unique kinds of traumas that she had to contend with throughout her life.
I would go so far as to say that she is arguably one of the most iconic villains in fiction, in the modern era. And I think partially because of that fact she doesn't really need a Redemption Arc. She is one of the few villains in modern fiction who gets to stand on her own without the idea that there is a Redemption Arc that changes the fundamentals of the character that she was.
The fact is, not every great villain needs to have a Redemption Arc that pulls a complete 180 on their character. Not every villain needs to eventually come around to be one of the good guys. As she stands right now, and I say this unironically, I would rank Azula as far as villains go, among the likes of the Joker, 4 Magneto, or just about any other Marvel or DC Comics caliber villain that you could think of. And I think she deserves it. Between the writing, and the voice acting, and her own uniquely tragic character Arc as a villain, I think watching her rise and her downfall is one of the best pieces of fictional writing and character development that we have seen in animation history. And I don't think that she needs to be redeemed in order to complete her story or her character Arc.
Honestly, if we had found out anything about her in The Legend of Korra, be it that she simply died in prison, or that eventually Zuko released her but her bending had been removed, I could have lived with that. I probably could have lived without knowing that she had any sort of a happy ending, or any sort of a tragic ending. Sometimes the villain is just the villain, and sometimes that villain does not change their ways, or make amends for their mistakes, or fix their broken past. It may not be the feel-good kind of ending that many of us have grown used to in cinema in the last twenty years or so, but it's still a viable ending none-the-less.
I definitely enjoy ramble type videos. Especially since you still had clips to show your points in post. You are very eloquent in your speaking.
The redemption angle is fine to me. Like you said what Azula was, was the future of what the fire nation could have been, but now that the firelord lost, and Zuko runs things. Theres no point for her character anymore, in which case she can do the redemption story otherwise shes just never mentioned again, or dies.
Apparently the head writer of the show, Aaron Ehazz, said that he always intended for Azula to be redeemed. It would have been much more complicated than Zukos and he would have been for her what Iroh was for him.
I personally like this. Her being given a chance for redemption is a fascinating place for her character to go, now whether or not she takes it is another thing entirely. She could break Zukos trust in an irreparable way and be left to sort herself out on her own, which depending on how that was done could be very effective.
Also I disagree with your claim that Azula was always an irredeemable monster. Ozai was yes but he's a grown man who has presumably been given chances for redemption anyway, likely by Iroh after he was redeemed. And just like Zukos whole world view was shattered and he was left to put the pieces of his life back together Azula very easily given the same opportunity.
I feel that the mental breakdown she has is proof that there's something in her that wants to be better but she's been groomed for so long to believe that she's good as is and that this is the person she needs to be. Azula doesn't need to be pure evil, Ozai is the only character that needed to be pure evil because he influenced the lives of his children.
Honestly, how I would do the redemption arc:
I would have her go on a journey across the four nations and as she travels, she learns more about human decency and kindness, and in the end she comes back to the fire nation and opens up a dojo to teach her lightning techniques to the new generation of fire benders, and in the process, becomes kinda like Iroh in terms of patience and understanding.
I'm with you. While I'm sure it can be interesting to give context to certain events that aided Azula down this monstrous route, I'd ont think she should be redeemed. I will say, though, that I do hope this story is good. I only ever read the story about Zuko's mom, so I hope they can at least give the readers an interesting journey into the mind of the best character in ATLA
Short answer: no
Long answer: Hell No!
I remember I mentioned saying on your last video I wanted more ATLA. You’re a damn hero my guy I love your analysis, your cadence when speaking, your material and everything that makes you, you.
I guess because I have siblings, I kinda want want her to be redeemed. It be nice for Zuko to have a sister whom he grew up with. There is a special bond there.
I think a certain character from The Maxx . Specifically the main antagonist of the comic is an excellent example of someone who is irredeemable but you understand why he is what he is and that's what he's just looking for an understanding.
I’ve been meaning to read or watch that. Suggestions as to which? Know where I can find it?
I think explaining WHY a villain becomes the way they are is important to context but shouldn’t be a defense or justification.
Additionally I think this book will be challenging as most people who enjoy Azula enjoy her as a villain/antagonist so to see her in a new setting will be interesting.
Ultimately I think I’d rather see a story about if she CHOOSES to the of redemption. Not every villain acknowledges that they were the bad guy. So let’s see what’s Azulas idea of redemption looks like. Maybe she confronts her mothers spirit. Or those she hurt. Or maybe none of those things
Redemption? No, Forgiveness? Maybe, I’d be ok with her realizing what she did was bad but just retires from fighting and just settles down somewhere.
Or maybe she needs to get a chance of growing up
I think the closest thing we should get is like Azula taking a bullet for her brother which imo makes sense given what happened in the comics so far. Other than that, keep her evil
I don't think even that would work considering the times she tried to off him herself.
@@oliviarogers2808 Her relationship with Zuko HAS changed in the comics. She couldn’t go through with offing her mother when she had the chance and now actually wants him unharmed.
@@alexdeghost2729 that and she actually pushes Zuko to be a stronger fire lord. the way she does it is absolutely evil and wrong but it was actually her goal and it does work.
@@dillzilla4454 She's LITERALLY the Akatsuki! 😂
I could see her being an anti hero type character
6:16 Zuko was evil too and he was redeemed cause he wanted to but Azula can’t because she doesn’t know who she is outside of being a monster for the Fire Nation
What makes Azula interesting in my opinion is that while she is a character fully capable of changing and becoming something of an anti-hero she probably never will. She's intelligent and hyper competent at basically everything, she's manipulative and charismatic, she's the perfect successor to her father in that way, and were she to flip and become a bona fide hero she would honestly be a better Fire Lord than her brother. But because she views herself as a monster she has self destructive tendencies. She doesn't view herself as worthy of love, the comics practically tell us that outright.
For Azula, redemption should be a long, LONG road, and one that leads to someplace she isn't super interested in going. Azula turning good would be like Aang turning bad.
There's a comic in which Batman and Captain America crossover to fight Joker and Red Skull. In it, the Joker is fine with the plan, right up until he finds out about Skull's...political leanings. If the writers of the Avatar comic want to show Azula in a better light while still keeping her, her, I think something like this (but not specifically this) would fit better than a full-on Zuko-ing. Not a redemption, but a boundary.
I think a vary important lesson to learn that's not always taught in children's media is that not every one is worth you're time and effort and it's often better to cut off a relationship for you're own safety than to stay in a toxic situation for a small to nonexistent hope that you'll make things better. I know as a fact that I could have benefited from this lesson earlier in life. I think Steven Univers, and Raya and the Last Dragon actually have a horrible moral because of this.
The way I see it, if Zoko got a chance at redemption then Azula should to. We all love Zuko''s character and how he grew, but at the end of the day we first see him as a villain and for most of the show that is how we see him. I'm not saying that Zuko was some how worse then Azula, I'm simply saying that both Zuko and Azula were the result of a abusive parent and if the show gave all the redemption points to Zuko and not Azula I personally think that would be Hippocritical.
I have a feeling this comic will be something similar to "zuko alone" where azula has a chance of redemption but throws it away to get what she wants
Nice video Shady!
I disagree on some points so prepare for a long reply:
I think when people say "Redemption" thay have different things on mind. Personally, I don't need to see Azula become part of the Gaang or be instantly forgiven.
Her ending in the series makes sense, but if gonna show what everyone is doing after series, why not take a chance to leave the character at a better place than she left at end other comics?(even if that means that her character would leave her previous acquaintaces behind)
Iroh saying that Azula needs to go down is funny in the moment, but it gets weirder when you remenber he was also part of Fire Nation military and that Zuko in book 1 did a lot of wrongs things. It feels a double standard.
Azula did help Zuko return to Fire Nation in book 3, she could have told The Fire Lord that Zuko was seeing Iroh in prison, but did not. Zuko thinks she is messing with him, but that doesnt seen come up later. He still leaves the Fire Nation behind. As the audience we know why he did it, but in her pint of view it could still be seen as a betrayal of her thrust.
Azula kept people away with her attitude and that makes sense, but I dont think we no one on the series attempted to reach out and show her the potential of a different life.
Thanks for reading!
I think your to focus on just Azula’s character, I feel Zuko & Aang wouldn’t just give up on her if there was a piece that could be saved even Aang said “When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change” which fit where they left Azula
Zuko might not, but Aang never tried to redeem Azula, ever, for good and obvious reasons. She's insane and needs to go down.
If Hitler had lived, should he have a shot at redemption? Prison was a MERCY for Azula and Ozai, their redemption, if any, should come while they rot there, and maybe then they can be allowed to have a positive impact on the other prisoners...
I think his focus is too much on the thematic role of her character, and not what's portrayed. Azula was clearly hurt by her mother leaving and blamed herself for it. Yes, she was already a grim little Ozai happy to kill and pillage just like daddy taught her. But that's just the problem, she was trying to be a little Ozai. She was trying to gain his approval while also controlling through fear so she'd never suffer like she did when her mom left. When fear stopped working she lost everything. And with Ozai out of the way her worst influence isn't around to stop Iroh, Zuko, Aang, Katara, Mei, or Tai Lee from helping her. Her thematic role is done, and all that's left is a scared lonely teenager freed from the abusive cult leader that raised her.
@@davidtucker9498 We're talking about fictional characters here, Godwin.
Azula already hit her lowest point and changed into a child kidnapper that aims to manipulate an entire nation and her brother, the Fire Lord, into being tyrannical. Even without Ozai, she's still evil.
"Change" doesn't translate to "good" or "redemption" etc.
Zuko and Aang have also both given her chances, and she rejected them, not to mention has intended to murder both, more than once.
The way I see it, Azula deserves to be pitied because she's irredeemable.
@@thedeathskeleton4957much of her story is yet to be written. Her story extends only few years past the show and it was never addressed what happened to her in Korra. So there are potentially 65 years of unanswered time regarding Azula. Down the road she may change. It very simplistic to say Zulu and Aang gave her chances and she rejected. In redemptions you do not take chance right away. It is a process with wrong turns and regressions. Perhaps down the road Azula will find her way.
Dude you gotta check out the comics
I love the art and Gene Luen Yang really captures the style of the show in his writing, though he and the artists GuriHiru left after the North and South arc and I haven't read past that yet but those first 5 arcs are really good
As for the Azula redemption story, I'm not sure I'm on board. Sure she does deserve it but I don't think she as a character would want it. The reason why Zuko's redemption worked so well was because we saw that despite his anger and desperate need to prove himself to Ozai that he was a good person underneath it all. Azula on the other hand was always a malicious girl that didn't see much value for others outside of what they could give her. Hell she straight up tells Zuko that their dad is going to kill him and she did it _gleefully_. Like, "Dad's gonna kill you LOL". So unless she goes through MAJOR character development, I don't see her redemption truly working. I'll still give it a read out of curiosity.
My issue with "Redemption" arcs is whether or not it's convincing? Because too many shows do not put much effort in it. Can Azula be redeemed? Maybe, but she's a character that is going to need a lot of work to convince me that it is genuine.
I trust Bryke. They genuinely care for their show. You mentioned other show. Avatar is not your typical show.
I agree it definitely will have to be handled carefully. Such a story should be very introspective and focus a lot on the sociological issues and trauma that lead to such a thing. Something I believe would be very interesting to see.
You didn't miss much with the comics. Ham-fisted and contrived plots, characters breaking character, some goofy plot with some surprisingly charming Metal Bender students…
Anyway, Azula doesn't need "redemption". She doesn't _want_ redemption. Even in the comics, she just kind of does whatever she wants. So… yeah.
Also, that whole force-injected plot about Azula going nuts was very… _very…_ short-sighted, rushed, and poorly done. There was no reason for it other than people telling her "No". Granted, one of those "nos" led to her being the ruler of the Fire Nation, but still.
my question is, how *would* you revisit Azula in a post series context?
I really don't know how you would make an Azula focused book with that context, other than to take this shot
yes, it's important to understand her context and place in the show, but to my understanding, this is after the show
after she lost
after her world view was shattered
what do you do then? they kinda just left her there with that revelation at the end of the series, which is fine for the series, but, imo kinda leaves the character on a cliffhanger? idk, that part is probably very much more subjective
Ditto
I'd like to see... not a redemption, but Azula growing as a person, letting go of her past life,maybe going into self-exile, coming to terms with what a horrible person she turned out to be and trying to live another life.
Perhaps as she's starting to turn grey, she gets a visit from Zuko who apparently knew where she was living for years and chose not to meet her for fear it would just trigger another fight, they sit down together, come to the mutual agreement that she's no longer anything like the terrible person she was when she was young, zuko meets his nieces and nephews and grandnieces and grandnephews and leaves truly happy that for once, he's parting with his sister on good terms after they exchange the words "I love you" (not in an incest way but in a platonic way, stop thinking like that!) Words they thought they'd never hear from eachother.
Then, some years later she passes peacefully in her sleep, surrounded by loved ones and friends.
I think that would be an excellent story for Azula.
I like the video and hope you do more like these. I don’t think Azula works as a redeemable person without abandoning what made her. Quick nitpick: the Killing Joke comic is around 1 of the first stories that made a sympathetic backstory to Joker in the late 80s. I think that story worked well if only because it presented the Joker in a different light as it is a choice he makes to be crazy otherwise he has to grapple with all the misfortune that befell him.
yeah killing joke did it perfectly. Yes he's insane, no it's not 100% his fault, but no he can't come back from that and yes he really does need to die.
I’m pretty sure the original plan if Avatar continued was for Azula to have some sort of spiritual journey where she changed so we could understand her better. The way that it ended with her in literal tears after being completely broken emotionally makes it seem like they were planning on having her have to be put back together. Now whether she would go full redemption like Zuko or simply get over her mental blocks and go back to being a ruthless antagonist, I’m not entirely sure, but I don’t think that she ever really had her full arc like you said. She really only just finished the very first part.
The worst thing Zuko did was betray his uncle (which happened in part because Azula used his shame to manipulate him) and attack innocents while hunting the Avatar down.
Azula did everything Zuko did in addition to being manipulative and helping her father attempt a genocide in a sovereign nation she overthrew.
If they are gonna redeem her, it's gonna be risky, but you know what they say about risk and reward. Although I stay cautiously optimistic.
Possible Spoiler but could be wrong:
What I've heard is that the Azula comic does give Azula a chance at redemption, but just like with the TV show, she turns away from the idea because she doesn't want to choose a life where her fear and power isn't enough to get what she wants. She remains a psycho villain because she's too afraid of being anything else. It's just what I've heard and I could be wrong, but I felt on the chance I'm right I could give warning for those who want to read it themselves
To quote iroh "she's crazy and she needs to go down"
I'm hoping Iroh is proven wrong. At times he feels too Gary Stu ish
@@June28July iroh is not perfect 🤫
@@June28July If anything maybe Iroh should be the one to try and drag Azula back to the side of redemption. He's been playing favorites with Zuko like mom has too, and Iroh might be the kind of Tough Love guy Azula needs to hear from, he might be able to force her to listen up when mom and Zuko can only try to persuade her.
It's a weird decision to quote Iroh when he killed countless people in his 600 day siege of Ba Sing Se whilst Azula was able to make it fall without a single casualty. Who really holds the moral high ground?
@@ketzexi6276
Very good point. Azula perhaps deserves her redemption?
That grimace that you see before "No YOU miscalculated!" That's her snapping.
I just now realized that she has the same voice as Ashi which puts this idea into A new light of someone with a warped mind and ideas from the very beginning turning over a new leaf.
However, one huge difference is that Ashi showed a care and loving wonder for nature and things that were outside her master’s ideal creation. Azula has the instinct to burn and torment things that aren’t immediately serving her in someway and even then they have to be doing a perfect job even her closest allies that followed her throughout the show.
Actually Ashi is voiced by Tara Strong, not Grey DeLisle/Griffin.
@@christianjohnson5379 Whoops well still puts it into perspective with their large similarities. The characters still definitely do sound like.
It could be done but it'd have to be done right, I think it would require Zuko as well since the only family member besides her father and mother who cared about her was Zuko. Furthermore Zuko was the only person she ever truly showed kindness to other then Chnen (the guy who hosted the party they went to) but they trashed his place afterwords though.
Even though she doesn't frequently show it frequently we see signs of her humanity, I think that if Azula were to get redemption it'd probably be based around her understanding love and empathy, maybe questioning how love overpowered fear for Mai.
I imagine since she was banishing everyone at the end that she probably has trust issues too, in a way her own downfall was based on her belief in Fear being the best way to build relationships, it's the reason why Mai leaving her triggers her so much and when Ozai treating her like Zuko upsets her, I think she didn't realize it but being looked down by her father the only man she truly respected up to this point was also an example of a relationship dictated by fear. When Zuko was around he was the scape-goat, but with him gone the fears that Ozai use to control her become more noticible, essentially she's scared of being treated unfavorably by her father, and Ozai takes advantage of this most noticibly at the end, when Azula has her mental breakdown due to be betrayed by the only realitive in her she had left.
When Azula betrayed Zuko he still had Iroh and bonds of trust but when Ozai betrayed Zuko she had nothing, she never truly bonded with anyone else instead ruling with fear so basically her Arc would probably be about how one can maintain relationships without using power or rather, what makes a bond of Love stronger than a bond of Fear.
From what I can remember of the comics, I think they set up a potential redemption for her pretty well. But other than her blue flames looking cool, I don't have any strong opinions on her character.
although if it does turn out she isn't going to be redeemed then will Aang take away her bending?
Even without a script, Shady’s analysis is on point. More.
I’m okay with her getting a chance at redemption as long as it is to solidify she is evil and maybe along the way she does discover and reflect on some things and in the end she realizes there may have been some things that led to her becoming the monster she is but she likes it and she’s good at it
Ok, i'm gonna put a SPOILER WARNING here before i put my view point because it has some spoilers of the comic where they go to find Zukos mum.
In the comic Zuko ask for Azulas help to find their mother and they go together to find her. While this is happening Iroh is in charge of the Fire Nation. At the beginning i found it weird that he was cool with that decision, after what he said in the show, but then i thought "what if bringing their mother back was the only way to save Azula, not only from the Fire Nation, but also from herself, from all that paranoia and feeling of everyone trying to hurt her".
But that's just my opinion
Some characters don’t really deserve a redemption, it only works if you have sympathy for a character. A few characters I can think of are Mr. Freeze and Baby Doll from Batman or Gentle Criminal and La Brava from My Hero Academia .
I could easily see that at some point that Aang took Azula’s fire bending, requested by Zuko and Katara. I don’t know if that would work as a redemption arc, but I do think she has to have a somewhat same fate as her father.
You should only get redeption if you want it. And she didn't wanted it, she wanted power. Now its popular to give every villain a redemption arc and its so dull and boring
i think with azula it would be interesting for her to have a chance at redemption but not be redeemed or something like that because she's the scorpion from the scorpion and the frog what she did is in her nature(what i'm saying is nature effects nurture and vice versa).
retort. The fact that her world view is shattered and the fact she is a child means she deserves a chance to become a different person. I'm not saying she wasn't evil. If it came down to it if the only way to stop her from hurting others was to kill her then they should have killed her. But now that they haven't killed her, what is she going to do as a character? Stew away in a cell as all that she thought was true is proven false. Either she just goes crazy and you put her in a straight jacket or she comes to terms with reality and becomes a different person. I think the second option is more fun.
There's ways I think this could work, and ways it couldn't. If this redemption stuff is Anyone's idea but her own then I think it will fall flat. She only respects herself. If she herself realizes something is wrong and chooses to investigate herself, this might work. I don't think she could change while she's in the middle of being challenged by a rival- she will tunnel vision onto the fight in front of her instead of listening. And also honestly I would love to see Azula break herself out of the psyche ward and the Gaangs reaction to hearing that she's just loose somewhere
"The Search" is a decent mystery and they don't bungle the resolution like you think it would.
I honesty think most characters can get a redemption, but its about what fits into/ works with the story. Azulas canon ending worked perfectly, and fitting a redemption into a comic book will probably not work
Edit: so this is basically what you said lol
Perhaps not into one comic. But it can work in a series of comics. It can work in a spinoff series. I know that from avatar studios lots of new contents comes out.
Azula can still learn and grow. It's just a matter of - will her pride let her?
I feel like, if they go the route of her being beyond redemption, this will be her final story. My theory is that she’ll be given one final cosmic chance to be better than what she is, and she still won’t take it.
As I have said before there is not much you can do with Azula after she pretended to be a spirit. You either have to kill her or retire/reform her. Her story arc is coming to an end. After everything she's done there is no way she could ever be part the world. Katara may be the only member of team Avatar who will absolutely refuse to believe her redeemed. But I doubt most of the world would except Azula as a reformed villain either. Azula will be under attack by who hate the Fire Nation.
@@72Workerpeople in avatar world are more forgiving than in real life. If Katara accepted Zuko after he betrayed her personally if Azula put genuine effort to change I think team avatar will accept her. I mean when you have a nation that caused so much pain and suffering for 100 years, many will hate everything about fire nation and not just Azula. Team avatar suffered not just from Azula but whole fire nation, and they forgave fire nation. I mean put yourself in Aangs position. Would you be able to forgive a nation that wiped out your culture. Also Aang was optimistic about Azula changing, and Zuko has shown that he wants Azula be better and reach out to her. Azulas story was up in the air for years. Only now it is being expanded upon.
@@AndalusianPhilosopher For the record the Avatar world is not a Christian world. It is based on Eastern philosophy. Eastern philosophy is not as big on forgiveness as most Western philosophies. In her own mind I am sure she doesn't believe herself capable of being redeemed.
@@72Workerwe shall see how it goes. Something can change. I read great fanfics where her redemption done well.
I just got up from a nap, still drowsy and looking through some vids to help wake myself up, and i see this video and had to do a double take. I could have sworn the title said "Should Azula get a doorag"...my answer is...yes.
Personally I think its going to be a fake out. For example maybe she uses "Redemption" as a lie to lure out team avatar and when she does have a shot at true redemption she does a "naw being evil is to much fun!" And betrays them. It would fit with how she was desighed as a character plus it was established that Toph can't tell when Azula lies so it could work if done correctly.
I think any story about Azula after Book 3 would at least be about undoing her perfectionist worldview, if not a complete redemption.
I've had an idea for how Azula could be redeemed that starts with her falling into a river, hitting her head on a rock and going over a waterfall, being presumed dead. The short version is that she is pulled out of the water by a fire nation peasant and fakes amnesia to live with his family. Originally she plans to live in hiding like this for years and eventually scheme some way to get at Zuko. However, not only does she come to enjoy simple country life, but over the years living with a decent family opens her eyes to how terrible her father really is. She realizes that she is happier being a beloved and trusted peasant girl than she ever could be as a feared Fire Lord. When Zuko finally tracks her down she has a crisis, but everything works out in the end.
There's actually a fanfic on ao3 that kinda follows that idea. The main difference isn't that she has amnesia. She just assumes a fake identity. It wasn't bad, as far as most fanfics are concerned. Lots of angst though
Well said. My read of the Azula character is that she was just rotten on the inside and all being under her father's influence did was enable that behaviour.
If Iroh says she can’t be reasoned with, you KNOW she’s beyond redemption.
but in the comic he says he wants her to find peace
@@Gypsygeekfreak17 I don't think finding peace would exactly "redeem" her.
@@kenslycarpel3140 details details
@@Gypsygeekfreak17 Not exactly. Like Shady said, a part of redemption is feeling repentance for the actions you committed, finding peace doesn't always lead to feelings of repentance, instead mostly leading to no longer feeling guilt for those actions.
@@kenslycarpel3140 dude have you seen the comic the search
listen azula never had anyone to teach what was right and wrong
zuko did
i mean lets say for example that
a kid a victim of his surrondings like it was a warn and torn country and he had to steal and kill to just get by another day and thats all he has ever known
azula is the same she was around a pychopath she wanted some reconition from her dad
azula went nuts
im telling you man she just needs help
Azula shouldn't get a redemption, not because she doesn't deserve one, but because she doesn't WANT one. Zuko got a redemption because he knew he screwed up, he went out of his way to fix mistakes he made, and he understood that his actions had hurt people and took responsibility for it. Also from the very start you could see Zuko fight with himself over right and wrong. Azula doesn't want one, why would she? She see herself in the right, she doesn't care that she hurt anyone. Hell when her friends turn on her she is upset that they didn't fear her, instead of being upset that she did something to turn them away. You cant redeem someone that never thinks they are in the wrong.
As someone who found Azula’s final fate perfectly devasting and depressing, I think if done right, a redemption arc could be interesting, just as long as they differ it enough from Zuko, it could be her grappling with how she was raised and maybe seeing how toxic it truly was, I think that could be a very good story
Then again, I think this could work just as well:
Aang: You’re an irredeemable monster!
Azula: What took you so long idiot?
I think she's too nuts to redeem.
i would sooner believe that Ozai wanted to turn a new leaf and find redemption before Azula
the way they write her in the comics is almost how the MCU did loki where she does good things for terrible reasons. she basically pushes zuko to be a stronger firelord. now the way she does this is by kidnapping a bunch of children but the but the goal was to was actually to make zuko be a stronger firelord and it does work.
REALLY like this quick no script type vid, also agreed on azula *should* be left where she was arc wise but im open to new ideas if its done well