I adored Cordelia and was heartbroken by what they did to her, only for it to turn to pure rage when the full extent of the behind the scenes got revealed. Both the character and the actress deserved so much better.
I choose to credit the show and the notr whedon headwriters for making her shine and be that great, and charisma, but they really give her the material to let cordy be a complex proud flawed but great woman that doesnt need to be badass to be amazing. Also it makes me hate whedon, which i credit the show not whedon part of making her that great. That i hate whedon the most for that personally And the masters abuse also is. not a competition but make him do an abuse scene whedon knew he would hate, ...
I met Charisma at a con, she’s really nice and brutally honest. She was so blunt with her distaste with Season 4 and said she wasn’t even told that Cordelia was possessed when she slept with Connor.
My fav Cordy episode is in Angel, room with a view, when she gets the ghost filled apartment, cos of how she stood up the the ghosts mother and befrends and happily lives with the ghost son of the poltergeist that tried to kill her, her whole "i survived sunnydale and am a bad botch, you cant bully me" speech is so powerful for her.
This was a great assessment of a really difficult subject. Personally, my favourite Cordy will always be the Buffy version - less screen time but so much character foundation and depth that really turns the hyper-feminine mean girl trope on its head
Cordelia Chase is one of my favorite characters, she rides that line of being a mean girl you love to watch be snarky and getting a very cool and interesting character arch, she’s always have a special place in my heart
Yeah, I didn't get that opinion from the uploader either. In the episode with Buffy with the college boys (the one with the frat house), Cordy showed that she was always rather ambitious when it came to making money. She's willing to hook up or network with the right (or wrong) people to make money fast or become famous. She reminds you of that one family member or friend who's always got some sort of get-rich-quick scheme they want you to help them with. Acting, podcast host, TV journalist are totally career paths she'd take because they're not traditional 9-5 slub work. Even her job as a detective agency "secretary" fits in that mold as she still finds herself running the place and handling the cash/books despite never showing any inclination towards owning/running a business. Cordy always had the mindset of a hustler.
Cordelia is my favorite Buffyverse character! Cordy could have been such a typical "mean girl" trope but she was so much more than that. Charisma doesn't get enough flowers for her performance for 8 years in the verse. Of course, I wasn't happy about what happened to her over on ANGEL but it didn't make me like her less. Her void in Season 5 after unceremoniously being fired was heartbreaking and it always boggled my mind that people (fans and cast) didn't seem to really care. I felt that void and truly thought Cordelia was the real heart of the show (sorry, Fred, it wasn't you). I'm glad to now see people appreciate her legacy!
I think the absence of Cordelia in season five is why I can't say it's my favorite season unlike so many others. She was the best character in the entire Buffyverse (despite her unfortunate ending) and deserved to be there through the very end.
this is such a wonderful and thoughtful video! cordelia really was the heart of angel and it’s incredibly tragic the way that whedon let his misogyny and vendetta against charisma destroy both cordelia’s character and (imo) the show as a whole
Although I love Cordelia in all seasons, I have to say my favorite Buffyverse season of Cordelia would be Season 2. She’s officially/unofficially part of The Scoobies and even though she’s relunctant sometimes about the tasks, she is still very much chill this season. I love her even more in the filler episodes like Lie To Me and Killled By Death where she’s just hangin’ with the gang. Comic relief without the outright snobbyness of Season 1 or anger in Season 3.
That was great. Cordelia is awesome. She's one of my favorite characters ever. What was done to her and Charisma was a literal crime. Incredibly sad and insulting. But we love her.
The worst part about the love arc between Angel and Cordy is how quick he is to forget about her when he reunited with Buffy in season seven with a big kiss. This means that Angel was treating his son like a rival, pushed him away out of jealousy, and obsessed over Cordelia for no reason...
Don't mind that side of it too much to be honest. At that point Buffy and Angel had probably accepted that they would never be together long term, but still had the odd romantic moment.
This is why I always saw Angel’s feelings for Cordelia as an infatuation/obsession rather than love. Especially in season 4…his behaviour when it comes to her is kind of despicable, even before the Buffy kiss.
@@Lmn1095 especially when he essentially is pulling the "how dare you steal my woman" card on his own kid that's being manipulated and groomed by the one person he thought gave a shit about him
Although the season and her character is controversial, I love Charisma’s acting chops playing the villian in Season 4 of Angel. The actor did an excellent job to the point where I couldn’t stand her character’s manipulation and trickery of her innocent voice(used by Jasmine). That surprise twist with her and Lyla was dope and she did very well with what she had to work with during the debacle with Whedon that year.
This exactly made season four my favorite season. I love me some good girlboss villain and she made such a great one. Im sorry she didnt enjoy that particular time of the show, but at least it pointed out her great acting range. Watching that as a kid/teenager without any indicator she is a villain and then all of a sudden boom ..was lifechanging at that time. Pretty uncommon too since usually TV always included You, the viewer and the villain, knowing whats actually going on, leaving only the rest of the characters clueless. It really was a gamechanger and rather sinister ride, watching a once loving character deceiving not only the gang but also us, the viewers as well!
I kinda wish that season 4 Cordelia was actually some fake version of her and thatthe real Cordelia was just missing, that would be the set up for season 5 storyline of what happened to the real Cordelia and Charisma could recurring though of the season and if they had got a season 6 she would return as main cast member again.
I think Charisma was more or less black balled after this as well. I always liked her as an actress. She’s much better than most people give her credit for. Her option in some of the later roles I think soured her on the business.
While I actually agree that Cordy's "bribing" with clothes was out of her character, I still think it was such a wonderful, heart-warming moment and I remember laughing all day long after seeing it❤
I headcanon that she liked the attention and that he made extra effort for her to make up? She can take him oh he remembers that funny moment and what i said, and like the attention . Him still remembering that would show care and, i think that swayed her :P
That scene with Connor ….you know exactly what scene…. Was like a massive F-bomb to Cordelia/ Charisma. I cannot watch it without feeling sick and I imagine that many feel the same. Shudder..
I rarely rewatch Angel like I do Buffy so I never caught onto how Season 3 really demoted her to Angel's satellite love interest, though I do remember finding it odd when I was about 16 how she was suddenly swinging a sword. Kinda shows Whedon's regressive views that he apparently doesn't think Angel can fall for a woman who isn't a warrior. She also goes blonde that season, making her feel even more like she's changing herself to be more like Buffy for him. And holy hell, that Wesley comment - "What class? Advanced bosoms?" - I forgot how casually slut shaming was done by characters intended to be likable on his shows. I think Willow at one point refers to Faith as "this cleavage-y slut bomb" Even through the clips shown here, you can see just how good Charisma Carpenter was in the role. She had a way of knowing when to deliver the mean girl lines in a way that was meant to be funny and likable, and then show a difference when she was intended to be cruel, reminding me a lot of Viva Bianca as Ilithyia on Spartacus - where you could simultaneously hate and love her depending on the scene. And she also had a way with the softer moments. Her work was so good in a way that we didn't even notice because she just became that character with all those layers Funnily enough, the line I love most from "You're Welcome" is her "we take what we can get champ, and we do our best with it", although I was one of those fans who had "oh and you're welcome" as my Bebo page quote back in the day lol (sometimes it was Anya's "I'm 1120 years old, just gimme a frickin beer!")
I agree with most of what you said, but I think it's silly to assume that likable characters can't make insensitive or rude comments (like slut-shaming) when provoked or annoyed. Especially since the characters were teens/young adults. To pretend heroes are *perfect* and never lash out or act badly is completely dishonest.
I always figured Cordelia wanted to be an actress because she wanted to get back some standing and money since she lost everything. But that's also why she wasn't actually that into the career itself (plus it allowed for some life outside the supernatural). The fact that it was never explained is what I thought showed first how little they cared for Cody's character
@@entrydenied That would be a meta reason which is a bit different. Ultimately the main issue is they thought giving her character an actual reason for her choices was a useless detail. When it's actually a pretty important thing. They literally just relied on fans either just accepting things as they told us or having us make the work of actually giving her agency
cordelia my GOAT. since childhood i've been drawn to mean girl characters but cordelia is the BAR for how to write a mean-girl-gone-good arc. her development actually felt organic and we got to see her regress occasionally, which? fair!
Brilliant video first of all. Second, I think Cordy could easily have chosen to become an actress after her family lost everything. In reverting to type, she might have seen acting as a way of getting back her money and fame. Not for the love of acting - which is why she doesn't do it much on Angel, and why it's played for laughs when she does. Cordy may not really be that interested in acting, but actually interested in performing in general - which she was shown to be drawn to with things like the talent show on Buffy - Cordy chose singing and was just as bad and clueless with that. I think she definitely had an interest in showbiz and likes performing, because she overall likes the attention, but doesn't authentically care about the particular aspects, like singing or acting, as long as it brings her the attention - which is why she seeks it out after Buffy, for fame and money because she thinks that's what she needs to survive.
I completely agree. I think it actually makes sense. And I think it’s ok that sometimes her more shallow old self comes through - like the part where angel buys her clothes - we see allowed to contain multitudes 😂
Too funny how i got into the Buffy show. I knew nothing of it and had little interest until i saw a segment/show on MTV where the whole cast of Buffy introduced their favorite music videos. When i saw Charisma Carpenter for that first time, that changed my interest level in finding out about this show.
Also, compare Cordy's sendoff to Fred's who got the whole episode sobfest leading up to her "death" and then popped right back to finish up the season and the series as another character!!
Joss and Amy Acker supposedly had a "thing" behind the scenes. He was clearly more than happy to displace Cordy once she was gone. Notice Fred's not-so-gradual glow up in seasons 3 and especially season 4.
Honestly, Fred got way too much screentime. She never felt like a real character to me. Just a collection of tropes, who doesn't develop, and a perpetual damsel in distress, right up to the end when she dies. Illyria was a much better character. And pre s3, Cordelia was a way better character than both. Such a shame.
@@jaycievictory8461 Yeah, Fred sucked and seemed almost to function as the anti-Cordy (smart shy and childlike vs. shallow, sassy and tough) I think they must've paid Charisma Carpenter big bucks to keep her mouth shut all those years.
Thank god cordy got that good sendoff at least, but yes amy acker nails it as illyria. Also recommand person of interest that , haha amy acker is so good there. as are the others, but she makes it end season 1 gets more into the AI intruige. And is an amazing character and that end , weep. Ok Amy acker really gets to be a more thought out complicated character that, is better than fred fine, and freds crazy mean streak should have been explored more, but i apreciate it got her more scifi ajecent roles. through fred should have been played less as love interest but more as crazy person thats functional and can be ruthless, but still cares. Like freds less than innocent side should have been covered more, Person of interest allows that muhaha Ok she plays a really interesting antagonist at irst that is a zealot for an AI basically and brilliant, but crazy, and her role is fascinating as , the main team AI she worships tries to guide her. And Root becomes maybe the best character?! Dunno charisma too despite whedons ..
Cordelia is my favourite character, and I wanted to thank you for your analysis, particularly in season 3. I was certainly in the majority that thought season 4 was really the collapse of her character, but I always had a bit of a sense that something was off in season 3. You've managed to put it in to words so perfectly! How could Cordelia NOT immediately confront Wesley, as you said! I'm not sure I ever realised just how Angel-centric her character had become. Wow, thanks for that insight too. Happy that you laid out her character development over the course of Buffy, as well! I've always been very impressed by her growth, and episodes focused on her, and never agreed with the perspective that Angel was the true start to her character. Her role as the blunt communicator amongst Scoobies with the worst communication skills was always a refreshing thing to watch. I can imagine a lot of the communication problems that plague the characters in season 4 or 6 would have been too easily resolved if Cordelia was around. (Anya picked up some slack as the 'blunt communicator', but lacked the social awareness to be able to deploy that ability to the actual utility that Cordelia could). Regardless, it was nice to see that the Buffy gang really did seem to lose an important ally in Cordelia, and her lack of presence is felt in a consequential way, even if no one mentions it.
As soon as the phone rang I knew Cordy was dead. Whedon basically killed Cordelia in the editing room, and in doing so revealed himself to be both a bully and a coward.
Except what he did to Cordelia’s character did nothing to improve the overall story and was just done out of spite simply because the actress got pregnant, so your point seems kind of pointless in this case.
@@jacobharris954 I mean SMG basically said they would pit the women against each other to control them and Eliza never showed up to many events or reunions when Joss was there. David even supported Charisma when she came out about it so must be true
Cordelia was such a fun character! I don't remember a lot about Angel but I do remember the Cordy and Connor storyline to this day and just, urg! It still makes my skin crawl.
I was introduced to Cordelia Chase in Angel Seasons 1&2. Looking back, she’s probably a big part of why I’m attracted to spunky, dark haired women. Hated to hear how poorly treated Charisma Carpenter was simply for becoming a mother. As for the “dumbing down” of her character, I have a very close friend who was always very booksmart and tested well in school, but outside of schoolwork, presented as ditzy and airheaded. I always thought that was sort of the vibe they were going for with her characterization on Angel.
Thank you for doing this Cordelia review! I had been asking you forever and now that you have done it, I am beyond thankful! I always gave Cordelia the most respects!
This was great, Rachel. I loved both series and have watched them multiple times. I have been subscribed to your channel for a while now, but this is the first time one of your videos has shown up to me. I will have to watch for them.
I absolutely love season 4 - i love the breakneck pace and all the character stuff going on. I hate the Cordy-Connor stuff but only because we basically find out it's not Cordy the same time as the characters do. I really wish they had revealed to the audience either after the rain of fire or in the episode "Cordy" kills Lilah that she is in fact a possessed vessel, and we haven't seen Cordy since Spin the Bottle. But I guess that was Joss's secret plan to make us hate her... And whilst I LOVE You're Welcome and think it's perfect, it would've been great also if she didn't die and Cordelia chose to bow out of the supernatural fight after all that had happened to her and become a character like Anne Steele - still helping the needy but now without the powers that be/supernatural influencing her. Just helping normal people in normal situations.
The Mean Girl Who Grows Up. Best character development in the whole franchise. Make that One of the best, as they all change gradually. Just like Real people change.
21:59 After Angel sets Darla and Drusilla on fire the rest of Season 2 is basically filler and him supposedly becoming "darker and more ruthless" amounts to him pulling harmless pranks on Wolfram and Hart.
The character of Cordelia was handled and written poorly in both series. I wish her foresight was something she gained naturally as a gift from a mysterious ancestry or something similar in high school. Like she could use it to explain her grades and help the gang with Hellmouth problems. I would see such an ability she would develop in her last season of Buffy she was shown in. Willow is a witch who learns magic, Cordelia has an innate ability she was born with but has no control of it. This would've been great.
Finally i found a channel that delves into the depth of some of my favorite characters. Hopefully you have angel/David Boreanos and his son somewhere here as well. New subscriber added .
S3 of Angel was when I fell out hard with watching Buffyverse shows. It happened right at a time in my life when I was suddenly finding myself able to predict fairly well where shows were heading. What they were doing with Cordelia, the introduction of Connor (introduce a child and then find a way to rapidly age them up: a trope that's popped up repeatedly in comics and TV and I seem to wind up despising it every. single. time.)...I just couldn't with Angel at this point. I think it was around the time that the show was ending that I first heard about why Carpenter had been let go, and MAN, that pissed me off. People stuck up for Whedon then, but it just felt so off to me. Mind you, I still think Whedon is an exceptional writer. While I'm fairly sure that he and I have absolutely nothing in common beyond being a fan of comic books, and probably wouldn't get along very well, I've always respected his talent as a storyteller. But around S3 of Angel and S6 of Buffy, his shows starting feeling wildly unfocused to me. Cordy's character arc probably suffered the worst for it, imo, and I'm glad I cut and ran when I did. I'm just not a fan of canceling people, though, and I really do hope that everyone involved finds their real-life redemption arc, so to speak. Comic-book continuations aside, I hope there's some kind of well-considered reunion in the future.
I honestly don't have a problem with the Jasmine/Cordelia storyline in season 4. Yes, it completely changes and bastardizes the Cordelia character, but thats only if you think of them as the same character. I think the episode You're Welcome could and should have been an entire season arc of Cordelia making amends, dealing with the repercussions & awkwardness of her possession and even the emotional scars of having her agency taken from her by a less vindictive showrunner.
All true, but no mater how hard Joss tried to damage her character and drag her through the dirt, Charisma’s real character and strength shined through which is why she has always remained a fan favorite.
As an actress I've always liked Charisma Carpenter, and as a creator I've always liked what Joss Wheadon has created. Tragically, Carpenter has so far been denied the heights she rightfully deserves and Wheadon has ended up being the source of his own downfall.
Would also note it was not originally planned she would get visions. It was only when Glenn Quinn was terminated from the show they decided to give visions to Cordelia. I wonder what would have happened had she not received the visions.
I agree that season 4 was odd, but the dissaster started on season 3 like you pointed out, after the whole half demon thing, Cordelia was a different character, that explained why we lacked an scene of Cordelia with Wesley. So Cordelia was already part of the puzzle made by Jasmine, but also explained that Joss Whedon knew that Buffy back to life will rise The First Evil. That's how a good writer knew the lore, he knew the rules. By that info, Season 4 was simple to understand, that wasn't Cordelia, and even Darla The Firs tried to remove her mask, but playing the whole I'm good speech, the same that The First did with Joyce. And since Charisma didn't want her character to be finish, I do believe Cordelia didn't end her story on YW.
Yay! I LOVE Cordelia! ❤My ringtone is a song about her that a podcast made years ago, that I can’t even find any more. I can only hear it when someone calls me. 😂
Thank you so much for making this video, this video is a long time coming for someone to make and I'm glad a Woman did it, and did it justice fo Charisma. So thank you again!
15:11 She does correct someone with Watcher training about demonology in front of the whiteboard at the beginning of S2, but your general point is very well taken.
Basically season three turned Cordy into Buffy to better suit her with Angel. This is ironic considering Charisma auditioned for Buffy but lost out to Sarah.
I could be wrong Cordelia knowing how to fight, it had the added benefit of getting to let them be physically close and build a bond. I think a big part is how both Whedon brothers enjoying taking characters who are primarily known for brains and turning them into warriors. Look at Fitz and Simmons, by the end Fitz wouldn't be able to take on Daisy in a one on one fist fight. But the Doctor version of him is able to take out the entire team including Daisy to get her powers back. Neither him or Simmons become the most skilled hand to hand combat experts they manage to learn how to be able to get by and becomes people who you do not want to mess with.
The AOS comparison doesn't really work, because Joss had pretty much nothing to do with the show after the pilot. The show was run by his brother Jed and Jed's wife Maurissa.
SHEER UTTER GORGEOUSNESS at first sight.😍🥰😘💋💋💋💋💋💋💓💓💓💓💓💓 Loved her maturity and no wonder as Charisma was DOUBLE(!!??!!) Cordelia's age! Fascinating that a decade after her own high school graduation, Charisma was going back to school as a sophomore!
I didn’t watch more than a couple of seasons of Angel but loved Cordelia on Buffy, especially that season or two that she was tenuously part of the Scoobies. I love when an antagonistic character is able to become a better person, form relationships with the central cast and show some layers without losing what makes them fun and funny and still a bit mean. Maybe because they wanted to move Cordy to Angel it seems like they replaced Cordy with Anya to retain that blunt, sharp comic energy…I loved Anya and there are a lot of differences between them but I also think it might have been cool to see Cordy in those Anya storylines…even Xander standing her up at the altar and her becoming a vengeance demon and having to fight Buffy. Xander and Willow randomly making out all the time and then never having that chemistry or it being mentioned again never made sense to me.
For the best Cordelia fanfiction I recommend Cordyfan's "A Different Future" series and Ironbear's two completed stories "Rio Blanco on the Mouth of Hell" and "And Another Thing...". They bring out Cordy as she should have been.
Great video! Hearing about Whedon's abuse behind the scenes really put into context a lot of what bothered me so much about the spin-off's treatment of Cordy as a character - which you covered beautifully. It also explains the latent misogyny behind other plot points around her character in Angel, particularly how she was subjected to not one, not two, but THREE different storylines about her being impregnated without her consent. Gross.
I think you've covered why I prefer Cordelia on Buffy rather than on Angel. They changed her too much on Angel and I think she just works better as a supporting side character than a main character. I also don't like the Angel/Cordy romance.
Cordelia was supposed to be 18 in S1 of Angel and she acted much older than that, more like she was 25, but I guess that was inevitable since Angel was more adult oriented than Buffy
Great video I totally agree. Cordelia's written a lot like the original Veronica from the older Archie comics. I always thought she'd make a good Veronica because she was, at times, mean in a funny way, very spoiled but always had heart and layers but still cared about her image and sense of fashion and was there for her friends before they ruined the dynamic in Riverdale. But there is so much correlation between how those two characters are written; she's also very smart, but downplays it. I had an issue with them making her poor and the college thing because it's not like they wouldn't have something saved if they were that rich. As a good student with all those acceptance letters, especially here in L.A., and her look and grades would have gotten so many scholarships I couldn't take the riches to rags seriously. I don't need things realistic, but her change was a bit silly & aweful in Angel at times, even though I really liked the Angel series.
The way Charisma was treated by you know who really upsets me. The power abuse by people in positions of authority is so disgusting. Unfortunately that seems to be the way America is heading in reality. Charisma was the reason I started watching Buffy because she was hot, I’m glad she got me hooked. I could never get into Angel so my memory of Cordy will be just from Buffy which I’m ok with.
I haven’t seen much of Angel, so I can’t speak to her in that. I am not a Cordelia fan though. She was a mean girl before Mean GIrls was a movie. And from the Buffy reaction community, she seems to be well liked. It makes me feel strange because while she was a fun character to have in the Scooby gang for season 2/3 of Buffy, I really don’t think she deserves the popularity. Whether people admit it or not, there’s a reason people adore Regina George and characters like that. They see a boss b*tch acting mean, especially if they are beautiful, and excuse the behavior. Beauty really trumps behavior for fans. While her character had certain moments that let her be multi dimensional, I think she was still pretty mean up and until she left Buffy. And this is evident with the way she is mean to Buffy in the homecoming episode and other episodes after her and Xander split. First impressions and personality mean a lot to me, so her making fun of Willow and being so self involved/mean in season 1 is hard to ignore. Plus, I just don’t relate to being a mean girl or having problems with standing up to popular girls. Idk, no character in Buffy is perfect but while her choices change somewhat in Buffy her tone and personality seem to stay the same, which is why I say she is kind of the same person.
Her going in to acting does make sense, she couldn't go to the colleges she wanted, couldn't take the path she planned, so she went a different route....that's real.
I tried to ignore a bunch of this for the sake of "he is the creator and even if he did ruin stuff, it was his choice". As a creator myself, I think you build what you build... even if you burn it down. But, now I'm pissed for the sake of creation...that he let his ego destroy something for so many others. It's made me sad.
Cord and the acting angle, I might have something to help with that. How is acting and Hollywood viewed at that time, glitz and glamour. Well, her original plans stemmed from her family having money and her general station in life, which she lost. In a way, pushing for this, even in a rudimentary way, is an attempt to reclaim some status for herself as a character. But, because she is aware Angel's work (like Buffy's) holds more meaning, she leans to that first, acting... when she can get to it. As fir the visions angle and picking up combat directly, I'm feeling a Pheobe (Charmed) vibe, if ya know what I mean. But that's under my presumption.
13:22 - isn't where she ends up at the start of Angel being vastly different from anything she ever imagined or pursued or aspired to at all previously kind of the whole entire point? Because....her whole entire life/future had been so upended?? 😅
(It makes sense that she cares about making bank and keeping up with bills, too, considering she knows what taking that for granted and losing everything looks like.)
((Also, I feel like the entire point of her being criticized and judged for having been popular and pretty wasn't meant to be taken as legit or valid criticism of her character it was meant to be seen as horrible and wrong and unfair because the audience is supposed to already know her better and know she is being misjudged completely unfairly by someone who doesn't.))
The take up a very unique part of the internet with your unique and thoughtful videos, your videos brings my younger self peace been able to assess characters that meant so much to all of us
She does and hell I wouldn't change that for the world! I think its a good subversion of the character, that she's more educated than you would assume. Think it was set up at the end of S1 where you see her taking an interest in her studies (in her own way, ha!).
I hate that they made Cordy and Angel love interests. I loved their friend dynamic. She was one of my favourite characters until season 4 of Angel. Whedon is such a douche for assassinating one of his best characters.
never watched buffy or angel but new charisma in her crime stories she did then seen her in a few films but she looks remarkably like kate watson the actress
I always wondered why Cordelia left for several episodes whilst everything was happening with Angels son. It made absolutely no sense to the character, especially as it appeared she was only into that other guy from Pylea (forget his name) on more of a surface level. Was it something to do with Charisma’s availability? Or just the writers dropping the ball?
I didn't know she came back for the 100th episode. I stopped watching while her character slept with the child that in the previous season was supposedly changing his diapers I thought it was gross and weird. Im glad she got a proper send off though. I also loved her in charmed. I always thought she was so beautiful. Thanks for the video. ❤
I was introduced to Cordelia through 'Angel'. She was actually amazing. Joss really ruined this character in the last two seasons. Turning her into a villain, being pregnant with Connor (Angel's son) and officially killing her in the 100th episode. I really feel bad for Charisma Carpenter. She didn't deserve this! I feel like a fool looking up to Joss Whedon. He's one of the main reasons why I started writing. Now, I stopped doing it because he was one of the darkest parts of Hollywood. All this time, I really thought he was a cool dude, only to discover he's not. Smh
@@kenrickbautista6141 you don't have to stop writing because of him. I used to look up to JK Rowling and Neil Gaiman until their behavior has made me rethink how I see them. And I still want to write. Whedon isn't forcing you to not write, you can still do it for yourself and be the storyteller you wish Whedon could have been 🫂
Cordy was so underrated. She showed so much growth.
The writers did her and her skills dirty.
Bro, Cordy is the most fair-rated character in the entire Buffyverse, everyone loves her🙃
@@bestakowalska8010 Yes the character was great. It would've been terrible to see what could've happened on the show if she was given a chance.
I didn’t really watch “Buffy”, but I loved her on “Angel”.
@@mrScififan2you’re missing out
They sure fucking did
I adored Cordelia and was heartbroken by what they did to her, only for it to turn to pure rage when the full extent of the behind the scenes got revealed. Both the character and the actress deserved so much better.
I choose to credit the show and the notr whedon headwriters for making her shine and be that great, and charisma, but they really give her the material to let cordy be a complex proud flawed but great woman that doesnt need to be badass to be amazing.
Also it makes me hate whedon, which i credit the show not whedon part of making her that great. That i hate whedon the most for that personally
And the masters abuse also is. not a competition but make him do an abuse scene whedon knew he would hate, ...
Absolutely. That was about how I processed it as well.
I met Charisma at a con, she’s really nice and brutally honest. She was so blunt with her distaste with Season 4 and said she wasn’t even told that Cordelia was possessed when she slept with Connor.
My fav Cordy episode is in Angel, room with a view, when she gets the ghost filled apartment, cos of how she stood up the the ghosts mother and befrends and happily lives with the ghost son of the poltergeist that tried to kill her, her whole "i survived sunnydale and am a bad botch, you cant bully me" speech is so powerful for her.
We stan Phantom Dennis
She was great in that episode. I kept shouting at the tv "Just move already!", but after that speech I was like this girl's a boss!
This was a great assessment of a really difficult subject. Personally, my favourite Cordy will always be the Buffy version - less screen time but so much character foundation and depth that really turns the hyper-feminine mean girl trope on its head
Cordelia Chase is one of my favorite characters, she rides that line of being a mean girl you love to watch be snarky and getting a very cool and interesting character arch, she’s always have a special place in my heart
I always thought Cordelia turned to Hollywood and acting because she saw that as a quick way or easier to become rich again.
Exactly. And, as she had never shown interest in nor even tried acting previously, she wasn't any good at it and had to keep her day job.
Yeah, I didn't get that opinion from the uploader either. In the episode with Buffy with the college boys (the one with the frat house), Cordy showed that she was always rather ambitious when it came to making money. She's willing to hook up or network with the right (or wrong) people to make money fast or become famous. She reminds you of that one family member or friend who's always got some sort of get-rich-quick scheme they want you to help them with. Acting, podcast host, TV journalist are totally career paths she'd take because they're not traditional 9-5 slub work. Even her job as a detective agency "secretary" fits in that mold as she still finds herself running the place and handling the cash/books despite never showing any inclination towards owning/running a business. Cordy always had the mindset of a hustler.
Same, I think for her it was a way of regaining her social standing. Rather than something she was passionate about.
Yeah, she was equally interested in marrying someone rich.
Exactly. Also, it also was a belivable excuse to make her move to LA.
Cordelia is my favorite Buffyverse character! Cordy could have been such a typical "mean girl" trope but she was so much more than that. Charisma doesn't get enough flowers for her performance for 8 years in the verse. Of course, I wasn't happy about what happened to her over on ANGEL but it didn't make me like her less. Her void in Season 5 after unceremoniously being fired was heartbreaking and it always boggled my mind that people (fans and cast) didn't seem to really care. I felt that void and truly thought Cordelia was the real heart of the show (sorry, Fred, it wasn't you). I'm glad to now see people appreciate her legacy!
Me too!
I think the absence of Cordelia in season five is why I can't say it's my favorite season unlike so many others. She was the best character in the entire Buffyverse (despite her unfortunate ending) and deserved to be there through the very end.
this is such a wonderful and thoughtful video! cordelia really was the heart of angel and it’s incredibly tragic the way that whedon let his misogyny and vendetta against charisma destroy both cordelia’s character and (imo) the show as a whole
Cordelia and Charisma deserved so much better 😢
Although I love Cordelia in all seasons, I have to say my favorite Buffyverse season of Cordelia would be Season 2. She’s officially/unofficially part of The Scoobies and even though she’s relunctant sometimes about the tasks, she is still very much chill this season. I love her even more in the filler episodes like Lie To Me and Killled By Death where she’s just hangin’ with the gang. Comic relief without the outright snobbyness of Season 1 or anger in Season 3.
A Cordelia video? You know if I see a Cordelia video I'll drop everything else. Let's go!
That was great. Cordelia is awesome. She's one of my favorite characters ever. What was done to her and Charisma was a literal crime. Incredibly sad and insulting. But we love her.
The worst part about the love arc between Angel and Cordy is how quick he is to forget about her when he reunited with Buffy in season seven with a big kiss. This means that Angel was treating his son like a rival, pushed him away out of jealousy, and obsessed over Cordelia for no reason...
Don't mind that side of it too much to be honest. At that point Buffy and Angel had probably accepted that they would never be together long term, but still had the odd romantic moment.
Buffy = Darla + Cordy = Dru.
This is why I always saw Angel’s feelings for Cordelia as an infatuation/obsession rather than love. Especially in season 4…his behaviour when it comes to her is kind of despicable, even before the Buffy kiss.
@@Lmn1095 especially when he essentially is pulling the "how dare you steal my woman" card on his own kid that's being manipulated and groomed by the one person he thought gave a shit about him
@@borednow5838 but just after everything that happened in season four of his own show, though? Right after Cordy is in a coma?!
Cordy in the season one finale of Buffy was just so damn epic and one of her finest moments!
Although the season and her character is controversial, I love Charisma’s acting chops playing the villian in Season 4 of Angel.
The actor did an excellent job to the point where I couldn’t stand her character’s manipulation and trickery of her innocent voice(used by Jasmine). That surprise twist with her and Lyla was dope and she did very well with what she had to work with during the debacle with Whedon that year.
This exactly made season four my favorite season. I love me some good girlboss villain and she made such a great one. Im sorry she didnt enjoy that particular time of the show, but at least it pointed out her great acting range. Watching that as a kid/teenager without any indicator she is a villain and then all of a sudden boom ..was lifechanging at that time. Pretty uncommon too since usually TV always included You, the viewer and the villain, knowing whats actually going on, leaving only the rest of the characters clueless. It really was a gamechanger and rather sinister ride, watching a once loving character deceiving not only the gang but also us, the viewers as well!
@@DanPiperWillow completely well said! I agree!!! I also love that each episode ended on a cliffhanger in that season.
Thank god it wasnt the real cordy, but damn she really naild the fun villain vibe too. Season 4 was jasmin controlled, right?
@@DanPiperWillow Exactly. It's the way I felt about the Fred-Illyria arc....tho losing Fred still hurt lol
A decently long video by one of my favorite youtubers on one of my all time favorite characters? YES! Thank you for this!
I kinda wish that season 4 Cordelia was actually some fake version of her and thatthe real Cordelia was just missing, that would be the set up for season 5 storyline of what happened to the real Cordelia and Charisma could recurring though of the season and if they had got a season 6 she would return as main cast member again.
It was always implied that she was possessed by Jasmine.
Yes. She was "bodyjacked" by Jasmine.
She kind of was controlled by jasmine and , the bottle forward, was just jasmine
I think Charisma was more or less black balled after this as well. I always liked her as an actress. She’s much better than most people give her credit for. Her option in some of the later roles I think soured her on the business.
While I actually agree that Cordy's "bribing" with clothes was out of her character, I still think it was such a wonderful, heart-warming moment and I remember laughing all day long after seeing it❤
I thought it was a genuine response. She may have became a better person but she was always immaculately dressed
I headcanon that she liked the attention and that he made extra effort for her to make up? She can take him oh he remembers that funny moment and what i said, and like the attention .
Him still remembering that would show care and, i think that swayed her :P
@@marocat4749 Wow, I never thought about it like that. Because I love this moment, I'm officially starting to headcanon it too!😘
That scene with Connor ….you know exactly what scene…. Was like a massive F-bomb to Cordelia/ Charisma. I cannot watch it without feeling sick and I imagine that many feel the same. Shudder..
I rarely rewatch Angel like I do Buffy so I never caught onto how Season 3 really demoted her to Angel's satellite love interest, though I do remember finding it odd when I was about 16 how she was suddenly swinging a sword. Kinda shows Whedon's regressive views that he apparently doesn't think Angel can fall for a woman who isn't a warrior. She also goes blonde that season, making her feel even more like she's changing herself to be more like Buffy for him. And holy hell, that Wesley comment - "What class? Advanced bosoms?" - I forgot how casually slut shaming was done by characters intended to be likable on his shows. I think Willow at one point refers to Faith as "this cleavage-y slut bomb"
Even through the clips shown here, you can see just how good Charisma Carpenter was in the role. She had a way of knowing when to deliver the mean girl lines in a way that was meant to be funny and likable, and then show a difference when she was intended to be cruel, reminding me a lot of Viva Bianca as Ilithyia on Spartacus - where you could simultaneously hate and love her depending on the scene. And she also had a way with the softer moments. Her work was so good in a way that we didn't even notice because she just became that character with all those layers
Funnily enough, the line I love most from "You're Welcome" is her "we take what we can get champ, and we do our best with it", although I was one of those fans who had "oh and you're welcome" as my Bebo page quote back in the day lol (sometimes it was Anya's "I'm 1120 years old, just gimme a frickin beer!")
I wasnt crazy about Angel and Cordelia in a romantic pairing either.
I agree with most of what you said, but I think it's silly to assume that likable characters can't make insensitive or rude comments (like slut-shaming) when provoked or annoyed. Especially since the characters were teens/young adults.
To pretend heroes are *perfect* and never lash out or act badly is completely dishonest.
I always figured Cordelia wanted to be an actress because she wanted to get back some standing and money since she lost everything. But that's also why she wasn't actually that into the career itself (plus it allowed for some life outside the supernatural). The fact that it was never explained is what I thought showed first how little they cared for Cody's character
Also gave the character a reason to go to LA and not some other city.
@@entrydenied That would be a meta reason which is a bit different. Ultimately the main issue is they thought giving her character an actual reason for her choices was a useless detail. When it's actually a pretty important thing. They literally just relied on fans either just accepting things as they told us or having us make the work of actually giving her agency
cordelia my GOAT. since childhood i've been drawn to mean girl characters but cordelia is the BAR for how to write a mean-girl-gone-good arc. her development actually felt organic and we got to see her regress occasionally, which? fair!
Brilliant video first of all.
Second, I think Cordy could easily have chosen to become an actress after her family lost everything. In reverting to type, she might have seen acting as a way of getting back her money and fame. Not for the love of acting - which is why she doesn't do it much on Angel, and why it's played for laughs when she does.
Cordy may not really be that interested in acting, but actually interested in performing in general - which she was shown to be drawn to with things like the talent show on Buffy - Cordy chose singing and was just as bad and clueless with that.
I think she definitely had an interest in showbiz and likes performing, because she overall likes the attention, but doesn't authentically care about the particular aspects, like singing or acting, as long as it brings her the attention - which is why she seeks it out after Buffy, for fame and money because she thinks that's what she needs to survive.
I completely agree. I think it actually makes sense. And I think it’s ok that sometimes her more shallow old self comes through - like the part where angel buys her clothes - we see allowed to contain multitudes 😂
Too funny how i got into the Buffy show. I knew nothing of it and had little interest until i saw a segment/show on MTV where the whole cast of Buffy introduced their favorite music videos. When i saw Charisma Carpenter for that first time, that changed my interest level in finding out about this show.
... yay?
7:18 The worst fate to ever befall any Buffyverse woman. Getting together with Xander.
Also, compare Cordy's sendoff to Fred's who got the whole episode sobfest leading up to her "death" and then popped right back to finish up the season and the series as another character!!
Love when Fred changed she viewed Spike as a worthy opponent because he wasn't as soft and squishy as the others.....
Joss and Amy Acker supposedly had a "thing" behind the scenes. He was clearly more than happy to displace Cordy once she was gone. Notice Fred's not-so-gradual glow up in seasons 3 and especially season 4.
Honestly, Fred got way too much screentime. She never felt like a real character to me. Just a collection of tropes, who doesn't develop, and a perpetual damsel in distress, right up to the end when she dies. Illyria was a much better character. And pre s3, Cordelia was a way better character than both. Such a shame.
@@jaycievictory8461 Yeah, Fred sucked and seemed almost to function as the anti-Cordy (smart shy and childlike vs. shallow, sassy and tough) I think they must've paid Charisma Carpenter big bucks to keep her mouth shut all those years.
Thank god cordy got that good sendoff at least, but yes amy acker nails it as illyria. Also recommand person of interest that , haha amy acker is so good there. as are the others, but she makes it end season 1 gets more into the AI intruige. And is an amazing character and that end , weep.
Ok Amy acker really gets to be a more thought out complicated character that, is better than fred fine, and freds crazy mean streak should have been explored more, but i apreciate it got her more scifi ajecent roles. through fred should have been played less as love interest but more as crazy person thats functional and can be ruthless, but still cares. Like freds less than innocent side should have been covered more,
Person of interest allows that muhaha
Ok she plays a really interesting antagonist at irst that is a zealot for an AI basically and brilliant, but crazy, and her role is fascinating as , the main team AI she worships tries to guide her. And Root becomes maybe the best character?!
Dunno charisma too despite whedons ..
Cordelia is my favourite character, and I wanted to thank you for your analysis, particularly in season 3.
I was certainly in the majority that thought season 4 was really the collapse of her character, but I always had a bit of a sense that something was off in season 3. You've managed to put it in to words so perfectly! How could Cordelia NOT immediately confront Wesley, as you said! I'm not sure I ever realised just how Angel-centric her character had become. Wow, thanks for that insight too.
Happy that you laid out her character development over the course of Buffy, as well! I've always been very impressed by her growth, and episodes focused on her, and never agreed with the perspective that Angel was the true start to her character. Her role as the blunt communicator amongst Scoobies with the worst communication skills was always a refreshing thing to watch. I can imagine a lot of the communication problems that plague the characters in season 4 or 6 would have been too easily resolved if Cordelia was around. (Anya picked up some slack as the 'blunt communicator', but lacked the social awareness to be able to deploy that ability to the actual utility that Cordelia could). Regardless, it was nice to see that the Buffy gang really did seem to lose an important ally in Cordelia, and her lack of presence is felt in a consequential way, even if no one mentions it.
I didn't even know I needed a Charisma/Cordelia breakdown so I appreciate the dive❤
As soon as the phone rang I knew Cordy was dead. Whedon basically killed Cordelia in the editing room, and in doing so revealed himself to be both a bully and a coward.
No character or actor is bigger than the story
Lmao
@@jacobharris954"Ahh, Wedon. Harder! Give it to me!"
Except what he did to Cordelia’s character did nothing to improve the overall story and was just done out of spite simply because the actress got pregnant, so your point seems kind of pointless in this case.
@@jacobharris954 I mean SMG basically said they would pit the women against each other to control them and Eliza never showed up to many events or reunions when Joss was there. David even supported Charisma when she came out about it so must be true
Cordelia was such a fun character!
I don't remember a lot about Angel but I do remember the Cordy and Connor storyline to this day and just, urg! It still makes my skin crawl.
I love all your Charmed and Buffy videos. I do hope you do a video on Btvs Tara. She deserves a video.
I just need to point out that we were robbed of Doyle loving Angel so much and kissing him in his final moments to give him the visions.
My love for Cordelia Chase still holds strong. ♥
I was introduced to Cordelia Chase in Angel Seasons 1&2. Looking back, she’s probably a big part of why I’m attracted to spunky, dark haired women. Hated to hear how poorly treated Charisma Carpenter was simply for becoming a mother.
As for the “dumbing down” of her character, I have a very close friend who was always very booksmart and tested well in school, but outside of schoolwork, presented as ditzy and airheaded. I always thought that was sort of the vibe they were going for with her characterization on Angel.
Thank you for doing this Cordelia review! I had been asking you forever and now that you have done it, I am beyond thankful! I always gave Cordelia the most respects!
Love this! Justice for Cordy!
They done her wrong....
“Scooby-adjacent”! So true!
This was great, Rachel. I loved both series and have watched them multiple times. I have been subscribed to your channel for a while now, but this is the first time one of your videos has shown up to me. I will have to watch for them.
@njjen3953 Thanks Jen ❤️
I am a staunch defender of Cordy Chase, especially on Angel, I thought Charisma was exceptionally magnetic on screen. 😊
I absolutely love season 4 - i love the breakneck pace and all the character stuff going on. I hate the Cordy-Connor stuff but only because we basically find out it's not Cordy the same time as the characters do. I really wish they had revealed to the audience either after the rain of fire or in the episode "Cordy" kills Lilah that she is in fact a possessed vessel, and we haven't seen Cordy since Spin the Bottle. But I guess that was Joss's secret plan to make us hate her... And whilst I LOVE You're Welcome and think it's perfect, it would've been great also if she didn't die and Cordelia chose to bow out of the supernatural fight after all that had happened to her and become a character like Anne Steele - still helping the needy but now without the powers that be/supernatural influencing her. Just helping normal people in normal situations.
The Mean Girl Who Grows Up.
Best character development in
the whole franchise.
Make that One of the best,
as they all change gradually.
Just like Real people change.
21:59 After Angel sets Darla and Drusilla on fire the rest of Season 2 is basically filler and him supposedly becoming "darker and more ruthless" amounts to him pulling harmless pranks on Wolfram and Hart.
The character of Cordelia was handled and written poorly in both series. I wish her foresight was something she gained naturally as a gift from a mysterious ancestry or something similar in high school. Like she could use it to explain her grades and help the gang with Hellmouth problems. I would see such an ability she would develop in her last season of Buffy she was shown in. Willow is a witch who learns magic, Cordelia has an innate ability she was born with but has no control of it. This would've been great.
Seriously underrated character in the BuffyVerse!! Love the vapid but often right, though bullyish, still right! and her beauty might be her weakness.
Finally i found a channel that delves into the depth of some of my favorite characters. Hopefully you have angel/David Boreanos and his son somewhere here as well. New subscriber added .
S3 of Angel was when I fell out hard with watching Buffyverse shows. It happened right at a time in my life when I was suddenly finding myself able to predict fairly well where shows were heading. What they were doing with Cordelia, the introduction of Connor (introduce a child and then find a way to rapidly age them up: a trope that's popped up repeatedly in comics and TV and I seem to wind up despising it every. single. time.)...I just couldn't with Angel at this point. I think it was around the time that the show was ending that I first heard about why Carpenter had been let go, and MAN, that pissed me off. People stuck up for Whedon then, but it just felt so off to me.
Mind you, I still think Whedon is an exceptional writer. While I'm fairly sure that he and I have absolutely nothing in common beyond being a fan of comic books, and probably wouldn't get along very well, I've always respected his talent as a storyteller. But around S3 of Angel and S6 of Buffy, his shows starting feeling wildly unfocused to me. Cordy's character arc probably suffered the worst for it, imo, and I'm glad I cut and ran when I did. I'm just not a fan of canceling people, though, and I really do hope that everyone involved finds their real-life redemption arc, so to speak. Comic-book continuations aside, I hope there's some kind of well-considered reunion in the future.
P.S.- Thanks for this video!! We need more Cordelia Chase fans to step into the light.
I honestly don't have a problem with the Jasmine/Cordelia storyline in season 4. Yes, it completely changes and bastardizes the Cordelia character, but thats only if you think of them as the same character.
I think the episode You're Welcome could and should have been an entire season arc of Cordelia making amends, dealing with the repercussions & awkwardness of her possession and even the emotional scars of having her agency taken from her by a less vindictive showrunner.
Amazing, what a nice surprise when I have insomnia!
All true, but no mater how hard Joss tried to damage her character and drag her through the dirt, Charisma’s real character and strength shined through which is why she has always remained a fan favorite.
You are great at these analyses. I watched both series when they aired. I had a love/hate relationship with Cordelia.
I read somewhere that Season 4 was supposed to originally end with Cordy waking up from her coma and killing Jasmine.
As an actress I've always liked Charisma Carpenter, and as a creator I've always liked what Joss Wheadon has created. Tragically, Carpenter has so far been denied the heights she rightfully deserves and Wheadon has ended up being the source of his own downfall.
Would also note it was not originally planned she would get visions. It was only when Glenn Quinn was terminated from the show they decided to give visions to Cordelia. I wonder what would have happened had she not received the visions.
I never knew that Glenn Quinn was fired. I just assumed that Doyle was simply a plot point for Cordy to get the visions from TPTB.
I agree that season 4 was odd, but the dissaster started on season 3 like you pointed out, after the whole half demon thing, Cordelia was a different character, that explained why we lacked an scene of Cordelia with Wesley. So Cordelia was already part of the puzzle made by Jasmine, but also explained that Joss Whedon knew that Buffy back to life will rise The First Evil. That's how a good writer knew the lore, he knew the rules. By that info, Season 4 was simple to understand, that wasn't Cordelia, and even Darla The Firs tried to remove her mask, but playing the whole I'm good speech, the same that The First did with Joyce. And since Charisma didn't want her character to be finish, I do believe Cordelia didn't end her story on YW.
This was so heartbreaking to watch 💔 Loved Cordelia ❤
this is immediately going into my work-perma-watch playlist
Well said, well said indeed.
This is why I love this series, characters are not black and white, all of them are very complicated....like any of us.
I loved Cordelia. She shines despite Joss.
Yay! I LOVE Cordelia! ❤My ringtone is a song about her that a podcast made years ago, that I can’t even find any more. I can only hear it when someone calls me. 😂
Thank you so much for making this video, this video is a long time coming for someone to make and I'm glad a Woman did it, and did it justice fo Charisma. So thank you again!
My favourite line is when Cordelia tells Harmony she is a sheep
15:11 She does correct someone with Watcher training about demonology in front of the whiteboard at the beginning of S2, but your general point is very well taken.
I never saw Angel but that fight training scene is bar for bar charmed season 4 Phoebe and Cole training in the basement
Basically season three turned Cordy into Buffy to better suit her with Angel. This is ironic considering Charisma auditioned for Buffy but lost out to Sarah.
I could be wrong Cordelia knowing how to fight, it had the added benefit of getting to let them be physically close and build a bond. I think a big part is how both Whedon brothers enjoying taking characters who are primarily known for brains and turning them into warriors. Look at Fitz and Simmons, by the end Fitz wouldn't be able to take on Daisy in a one on one fist fight. But the Doctor version of him is able to take out the entire team including Daisy to get her powers back. Neither him or Simmons become the most skilled hand to hand combat experts they manage to learn how to be able to get by and becomes people who you do not want to mess with.
The AOS comparison doesn't really work, because Joss had pretty much nothing to do with the show after the pilot. The show was run by his brother Jed and Jed's wife Maurissa.
@@schloodie1942 I know that's why I said brothers and not Joss.
@@dcworld4349 Sorry must have missed that while reading
@@schloodie1942 It happens ;)
SHEER UTTER GORGEOUSNESS at first sight.😍🥰😘💋💋💋💋💋💋💓💓💓💓💓💓
Loved her maturity and no wonder as Charisma was DOUBLE(!!??!!) Cordelia's age! Fascinating that a decade after her own high school graduation, Charisma was going back to school as a sophomore!
I didn’t watch more than a couple of seasons of Angel but loved Cordelia on Buffy, especially that season or two that she was tenuously part of the Scoobies. I love when an antagonistic character is able to become a better person, form relationships with the central cast and show some layers without losing what makes them fun and funny and still a bit mean. Maybe because they wanted to move Cordy to Angel it seems like they replaced Cordy with Anya to retain that blunt, sharp comic energy…I loved Anya and there are a lot of differences between them but I also think it might have been cool to see Cordy in those Anya storylines…even Xander standing her up at the altar and her becoming a vengeance demon and having to fight Buffy. Xander and Willow randomly making out all the time and then never having that chemistry or it being mentioned again never made sense to me.
For the best Cordelia fanfiction I recommend Cordyfan's "A Different Future" series and Ironbear's two completed stories "Rio Blanco on the Mouth of Hell" and "And Another Thing...". They bring out Cordy as she should have been.
Great video! Hearing about Whedon's abuse behind the scenes really put into context a lot of what bothered me so much about the spin-off's treatment of Cordy as a character - which you covered beautifully. It also explains the latent misogyny behind other plot points around her character in Angel, particularly how she was subjected to not one, not two, but THREE different storylines about her being impregnated without her consent. Gross.
I think you've covered why I prefer Cordelia on Buffy rather than on Angel. They changed her too much on Angel and I think she just works better as a supporting side character than a main character. I also don't like the Angel/Cordy romance.
Cordelia was supposed to be 18 in S1 of Angel and she acted much older than that, more like she was 25, but I guess that was inevitable since Angel was more adult oriented than Buffy
I have a massive crush on Cordelia, I love her so much
Great video I totally agree. Cordelia's written a lot like the original Veronica from the older Archie comics. I always thought she'd make a good Veronica because she was, at times, mean in a funny way, very spoiled but always had heart and layers but still cared about her image and sense of fashion and was there for her friends before they ruined the dynamic in Riverdale. But there is so much correlation between how those two characters are written; she's also very smart, but downplays it. I had an issue with them making her poor and the college thing because it's not like they wouldn't have something saved if they were that rich. As a good student with all those acceptance letters, especially here in L.A., and her look and grades would have gotten so many scholarships I couldn't take the riches to rags seriously. I don't need things realistic, but her change was a bit silly & aweful in Angel at times, even though I really liked the Angel series.
Its so sad what happened to a lot of the characters by the end of Buffy and Angel Cordelia, Fred, Tara, Anya.
The way Charisma was treated by you know who really upsets me. The power abuse by people in positions of authority is so disgusting. Unfortunately that seems to be the way America is heading in reality. Charisma was the reason I started watching Buffy because she was hot, I’m glad she got me hooked. I could never get into Angel so my memory of Cordy will be just from Buffy which I’m ok with.
Hard to swallow? I became a fallen Princess the minute my parents died. No, this is way too real.
Great video as always!❤
The clothes things was on brand.
I love Cordy!!!
Thanks! One in a million both Cordy and Rach!
@borednow5838 you're amazing, Dude 💗🤘
Thank you for this video ! I'm wathing her from France and i love your analyse of the character.❤
I haven’t seen much of Angel, so I can’t speak to her in that. I am not a Cordelia fan though. She was a mean girl before Mean GIrls was a movie. And from the Buffy reaction community, she seems to be well liked. It makes me feel strange because while she was a fun character to have in the Scooby gang for season 2/3 of Buffy, I really don’t think she deserves the popularity. Whether people admit it or not, there’s a reason people adore Regina George and characters like that. They see a boss b*tch acting mean, especially if they are beautiful, and excuse the behavior. Beauty really trumps behavior for fans. While her character had certain moments that let her be multi dimensional, I think she was still pretty mean up and until she left Buffy. And this is evident with the way she is mean to Buffy in the homecoming episode and other episodes after her and Xander split. First impressions and personality mean a lot to me, so her making fun of Willow and being so self involved/mean in season 1 is hard to ignore. Plus, I just don’t relate to being a mean girl or having problems with standing up to popular girls. Idk, no character in Buffy is perfect but while her choices change somewhat in Buffy her tone and personality seem to stay the same, which is why I say she is kind of the same person.
Her going in to acting does make sense, she couldn't go to the colleges she wanted, couldn't take the path she planned, so she went a different route....that's real.
I tried to ignore a bunch of this for the sake of "he is the creator and even if he did ruin stuff, it was his choice". As a creator myself, I think you build what you build... even if you burn it down. But, now I'm pissed for the sake of creation...that he let his ego destroy something for so many others. It's made me sad.
I rewatch Buffy all the time, but I basically never rewatch Angel. The way Cordelia’s character gets destroyed bothers me so much.
Cord and the acting angle, I might have something to help with that.
How is acting and Hollywood viewed at that time, glitz and glamour. Well, her original plans stemmed from her family having money and her general station in life, which she lost. In a way, pushing for this, even in a rudimentary way, is an attempt to reclaim some status for herself as a character.
But, because she is aware Angel's work (like Buffy's) holds more meaning, she leans to that first, acting... when she can get to it.
As fir the visions angle and picking up combat directly, I'm feeling a Pheobe (Charmed) vibe, if ya know what I mean. But that's under my presumption.
Been looking forward to this!!!! 🙌
13:22 - isn't where she ends up at the start of Angel being vastly different from anything she ever imagined or pursued or aspired to at all previously kind of the whole entire point? Because....her whole entire life/future had been so upended?? 😅
(It makes sense that she cares about making bank and keeping up with bills, too, considering she knows what taking that for granted and losing everything looks like.)
((Also, I feel like the entire point of her being criticized and judged for having been popular and pretty wasn't meant to be taken as legit or valid criticism of her character it was meant to be seen as horrible and wrong and unfair because the audience is supposed to already know her better and know she is being misjudged completely unfairly by someone who doesn't.))
The take up a very unique part of the internet with your unique and thoughtful videos, your videos brings my younger self peace been able to assess characters that meant so much to all of us
13:28 In _The Zeppo_, she does demonstrate an unusual level of knowledge about the Marx Brothers for someone of her generation.
She does and hell I wouldn't change that for the world! I think its a good subversion of the character, that she's more educated than you would assume. Think it was set up at the end of S1 where you see her taking an interest in her studies (in her own way, ha!).
she is the best character tbh
I hate that they made Cordy and Angel love interests. I loved their friend dynamic. She was one of my favourite characters until season 4 of Angel. Whedon is such a douche for assassinating one of his best characters.
loved her in angel
never watched buffy or angel but new charisma in her crime stories she did then seen her in a few films but she looks remarkably like kate watson the actress
I always wondered why Cordelia left for several episodes whilst everything was happening with Angels son. It made absolutely no sense to the character, especially as it appeared she was only into that other guy from Pylea (forget his name) on more of a surface level. Was it something to do with Charisma’s availability? Or just the writers dropping the ball?
I didn't know she came back for the 100th episode. I stopped watching while her character slept with the child that in the previous season was supposedly changing his diapers I thought it was gross and weird. Im glad she got a proper send off though. I also loved her in charmed. I always thought she was so beautiful. Thanks for the video. ❤
I totally forgot that she had a small role in Charmed! lol
I was introduced to Cordelia through 'Angel'. She was actually amazing. Joss really ruined this character in the last two seasons. Turning her into a villain, being pregnant with Connor (Angel's son) and officially killing her in the 100th episode. I really feel bad for Charisma Carpenter. She didn't deserve this!
I feel like a fool looking up to Joss Whedon. He's one of the main reasons why I started writing. Now, I stopped doing it because he was one of the darkest parts of Hollywood. All this time, I really thought he was a cool dude, only to discover he's not. Smh
@@kenrickbautista6141 you don't have to stop writing because of him. I used to look up to JK Rowling and Neil Gaiman until their behavior has made me rethink how I see them.
And I still want to write. Whedon isn't forcing you to not write, you can still do it for yourself and be the storyteller you wish Whedon could have been 🫂
@@patrickblake123 good point. Thanks!
Can you please go into her character as a seer on Charm?