The winner of the Super Bowl, World Cup, Premiere League, Euros, Wimbledon, any Olympic Gold Medal, etc is not necessarily the best in their sport. They are champions none-the-less. Ding or Gukesh will be the Classical Chess World Champion. They will obviously not be the best player in the world and that's ok. The match being boring is true and doesn't give a lot of anticipation. The best storyline is an 18 year old could be the world champion, which is mildly exciting.
I would agree this is looking to be a very mid WCC. I enjoyed it last year because of the story and result. Not only was Ding considered the underdog but to qualify for his spot he had to play tournaments in china like a mad man before a deadline. Both started off winning with black and Ding making the decision to play on in the deciding game and China's 1st WCC?! A masterpiece. I think Gukesh is the favorite though. India is sponsoring and training him, he's very talented and could be starting his super GM faze. Ding ALSO performed WORST in the Magnus invitational for chess 960 classic time control. Took like 1.5 points? A big concern is Gukesh steamrolling a VERY out of form Ding because Ding hardly played all year and was bad when he did... with ALL RESPECT to every GM included
Fischer gave up chess entirely in 1975. Magnus just gave up the WCC and keeps winning almost everything he takes part in. Also, Karpov, after gaining the title "easily" went on to dominate for close to a decade in tournament chess, basically winning every major tournament and showing he was the best player in the world. Ding barely plays and, when he does, seems out of form and unmotivated. Gukesh is also not the most exciting player in the world, to put it mildly. His stule of play is basically what everyone has been complaing about for the last few years: technical with a solid classical repertoire.
I'm rooting for Gukesh. The other players had their chance at the candidates. If Gukesh wins the World Championship maybe Magnus will return. Also, are we to believe that if Magnus remains retired from the World Championship that there can never be another World Champion?
For me, the point that the champion is the person who wins a championship is indisputable. In any sport you pick, the best player/team needs to prove it. No matter the regular season, if you win the finals, you are the champion. The ranking and the performance are useful, yes, but the championship is the defining feature. Normally, the best player is more likely to be the champion, but the clear reasons are that the champion retires or does not defend (as FIsher, Magnus) or that the new player still has to prove it (Magnus was number 1 in hte world when he played his first candidates) SO yes I agreee that the tournament does not feel that real if que Magnus is not playing, but we have to accept that he was champion and decided not to defend that is normal Kasparov retired as the best player as well. About the rivalry, that is more about the narative and the strugle to get there, to play one and again (Karpov-Kasparov) but now is one in a generation event that we are going to get the new generation blasting, the fact that we don't know what will happen does not mean there is no narrative here. As Westerners, we have biases as we know the narratives of our players. That's why you mentioned Caruana v Magnus but didn't mention Karjakin or Nepo. I'm sure that in the Western Hemisphere, there would be a lot more interest if Caruana, Hikaru, or Firoudja were playing. Many people see Gukesh as one of the 4 Indian prodigies, and that's it. In India they are thrilled about Gukesh and the championship and its narratives. Finally, Ding's health, that is, for me, the biggest and most important issue. If hte match itself is underwelming because players are not in their best. Questions will be asked.
the thing with the candidates is that the player that wins it is probably not the best player in the tournament.A very good example is Ian. his playing style contributes to the fact that he always beat the lower rated players in the tournament and fight for a draw against the best players in the tournament. And even after winning the candidates he lost to ding who he beats to win the candidates. The only players who won the candidates while being the best player in the tournament were Fabiano and krjackin. people who says vishy in 2014 are either delusional or Indian . krjackin was the best player in the tournament and even based off rating it was kraminik. so yeah the reason Magnus quit was the format that gives the unworthy player chance to play him and lose in style
Up and coming players don't always have a rating that matches their ability. Match play is different than tournament play. Gukesh - "He's a very clever boy!"
@@ChessCenturion at one point you said something along the lines of "if magnus hadn't stepped down, and ding became world champion, I wouldn't question the legitimacy of his WCC title". I was just responding to this part. I know you know this, but just saying that a Magnus vs Ding WCC match would have required a lot of strange circumstances to occur (like Nepo stepping down)
Im curious if you dismiss other world championship tournaments if the best team/player doesnt end up winning. If the team that wins the World Cup of Football isnt the #1 ranked country, do they not deserve the title of World Champion?
I get your point, but let's take the recent euros where spain won. Spain beat the best teams in the world like France, Germany and England to win. Ding didn't beat Magnus or fabi or hikaru in a proper match format to gain the title of WCC if u get my point, I guess candidates of old where matches were separated and drawn out over longer periods kinda solved that problem
I feel like doing is just going through a hard time and if possible, getting therapy or getting mentally healthy will make this matchup very interesting
My argument is that Magnus always had the chance to take participation in the candidates it is not like someone is stopping him. He made his choice ,we cant not assume that he is simply bored ,he actually might not be in a good shape for long grinding series of matches during these past 2 years. Yeah he might be in good shape now looking at his performance in recent tournaments. I mean hikaru was the norway chess champion for some time when magnus was still there.The point is Players were given the same opportunity and chances for winning the championship. Just because magnus says his bored ,that might not actually be the case. For that year, Ding was the best and no one can deny that. This year also in candidates , everyone was given the same chances and the young Gukesh persisted.So, if he defeats ding liren and become the world champion ,he is by definition the best in the World. And if Magnus and his supporters are not satisfied with that, It is always okay and welcome for Magnus to challenge Gukesh in the next championship. And Someone can also argue that Kasparov is also alive and the same thing can also be said in terms of magnus being the world champion .And yeah Kasparov is retired but can you not also say the same for Magnus backing out for two years ?. In the end, Magnus is always welcomed to challenge the world champion but for this year he and his supporter including myself have to be modest and fair regarding the coming championship.
I agree with the fact that of course everyone has equal opportunity to challenge but when the best player in the world isn't participating, it's moreso just another tournament rather than the most prestigious chess tournament imo
Look at tennis! The number one player is not necessarily a grand slam winner. The winner is the one who wins the tournament! . if the best player refuses to play......
i don't blame you if you see how magnus plays, wins and demolishes every opponent in the tournaments he plays with total domination..you expect others to be in the same league..but its an unhealthy habit to put blind expectations based on comparison and later pass the blame.
Surely the world champion has to be the person who wins the most recent world championship match? Isn't that also how it works in any other sport? You likely don't remember :) the chaos at the beginning of the century when the chess world split and there was more than one so called world champion... Noone wants that to happen again. There have been many times in chess history where the world champion was not necessarily the strongest player at the time, such as Rubinstein (whilst he remained sane) and Keres.
@@ChessCenturion Right, but if the current snooker champion (Wilson, I think, had to look it up :)) decided to retire, or just miss a year, would the next guy not be a valid World Champ?
I know nothing about snooker but unless the guy who inherited the title was almost or just as good as the retired champ then that sounds fine to me but I just don't think ding is close enough to Magnus in ability
I do agree that this is not that top notch level but to be fair, Fabiano (for whom I was actually cheering for) is not playing classical at that great level either. If he was, he would have won the candidates. I know there's a lot of Ding bashing as his performance is subpar and that's why I have been supporting the idea that previous year's winner should also go through the candidates, so we won't have a title defender who is underperforming. However, would still say that Ding is one of the strongest classical players next to Magnus lately when looking at peak performance. Ding had a 100 game unbroken classical streak, which is only beaten by Magnus. Of course that currently doesn't matter as he has his health issues.
The candidates used to be decided by match play. I reckon that was better from an accuracy point of view, but they can't get away with that these days, because the format was intermittent, consuming a lot of time and resources... They wanted something that could be resolved in one event.
Fischer knew Karpov was the better player. During the Karpov-Kasparov matches Fischer said that he couldn't believe that chess could be played at such a high level. Apparently their play was beyond Fischer's capacity.
@@ChessCenturion It stemmed from Fischer's belief that the matches were prearranged. I've looked for it again, but can't find it. Also, there is something on Chessbase about "Was Fischer afraid of Karpov?" a review on My Great Predecessors IV where Kasparov believes Karpov would have defeated Fischer.
You're entitled to your opinion, as am I, and anyone else, for that matter. The only legitimacy that matters is that Ding retains his title or that Gukesh is the new World Champion. These two are the finalists, so lets enjoy their games as you said. By the way, noticed games in the background which I hope you'll analyse as I enjoy your games, hopefully making me a better player, after a long time away from Chess.
Fischer gave up chess entirely in 1975. Magnus just gave up the WCC and keeps winning almost everything he takes part in. Also, Karpov, after gaining the title "easily" went on to dominate for close to a decade in tournament chess, basically winning every major tournament and showing he was the best player in the world. Ding barely plays and, when he does, seems out of form and unmotivated. Gukesh is also not the most exciting player in the world, to put it mildly. His stule of play is basically what everyone has been complaing about for the last few years: technical with a solid classical repertoire.
The winner of the Super Bowl, World Cup, Premiere League, Euros, Wimbledon, any Olympic Gold Medal, etc is not necessarily the best in their sport. They are champions none-the-less. Ding or Gukesh will be the Classical Chess World Champion. They will obviously not be the best player in the world and that's ok. The match being boring is true and doesn't give a lot of anticipation. The best storyline is an 18 year old could be the world champion, which is mildly exciting.
Magnus could return if Gukesh wins
Yeh I can agree with that, the match just has 0 hype for me
I would agree this is looking to be a very mid WCC. I enjoyed it last year because of the story and result. Not only was Ding considered the underdog but to qualify for his spot he had to play tournaments in china like a mad man before a deadline. Both started off winning with black and Ding making the decision to play on in the deciding game and China's 1st WCC?! A masterpiece.
I think Gukesh is the favorite though. India is sponsoring and training him, he's very talented and could be starting his super GM faze. Ding ALSO performed WORST in the Magnus invitational for chess 960 classic time control. Took like 1.5 points?
A big concern is Gukesh steamrolling a VERY out of form Ding because Ding hardly played all year and was bad when he did... with ALL RESPECT to every GM included
Well said, I guess last WCC was exciting af because of the drama of the games so maybe we can have that again this year
Well said, I guess last WCC was exciting af because of the drama of the games so maybe we can have that again this year
Fischer gave up chess entirely in 1975. Magnus just gave up the WCC and keeps winning almost everything he takes part in.
Also, Karpov, after gaining the title "easily" went on to dominate for close to a decade in tournament chess, basically winning every major tournament and showing he was the best player in the world. Ding barely plays and, when he does, seems out of form and unmotivated.
Gukesh is also not the most exciting player in the world, to put it mildly. His stule of play is basically what everyone has been complaing about for the last few years: technical with a solid classical repertoire.
I'm rooting for Gukesh. The other players had their chance at the candidates. If Gukesh wins the World Championship maybe Magnus will return. Also, are we to believe that if Magnus remains retired from the World Championship that there can never be another World Champion?
It would be difficult for Magnus to return, since now he would have to play in the candidates like everyone else.
@@roqsteady5290 That's right; and those that see Magnus as the "best" player would believe Magnus would have no problem winning the candidates.
I really do hope Magnus returns tho
For me, the point that the champion is the person who wins a championship is indisputable. In any sport you pick, the best player/team needs to prove it. No matter the regular season, if you win the finals, you are the champion. The ranking and the performance are useful, yes, but the championship is the defining feature. Normally, the best player is more likely to be the champion, but the clear reasons are that the champion retires or does not defend (as FIsher, Magnus) or that the new player still has to prove it (Magnus was number 1 in hte world when he played his first candidates) SO yes I agreee that the tournament does not feel that real if que Magnus is not playing, but we have to accept that he was champion and decided not to defend that is normal Kasparov retired as the best player as well. About the rivalry, that is more about the narative and the strugle to get there, to play one and again (Karpov-Kasparov) but now is one in a generation event that we are going to get the new generation blasting, the fact that we don't know what will happen does not mean there is no narrative here. As Westerners, we have biases as we know the narratives of our players. That's why you mentioned Caruana v Magnus but didn't mention Karjakin or Nepo. I'm sure that in the Western Hemisphere, there would be a lot more interest if Caruana, Hikaru, or Firoudja were playing. Many people see Gukesh as one of the 4 Indian prodigies, and that's it. In India they are thrilled about Gukesh and the championship and its narratives. Finally, Ding's health, that is, for me, the biggest and most important issue. If hte match itself is underwelming because players are not in their best. Questions will be asked.
the thing with the candidates is that the player that wins it is probably not the best player in the tournament.A very good example is Ian. his playing style contributes to the fact that he always beat the lower rated players in the tournament and fight for a draw against the best players in the tournament. And even after winning the candidates he lost to ding who he beats to win the candidates. The only players who won the candidates while being the best player in the tournament were Fabiano and krjackin. people who says vishy in 2014 are either delusional or Indian . krjackin was the best player in the tournament and even based off rating it was kraminik. so yeah the reason Magnus quit was the format that gives the unworthy player chance to play him and lose in style
I think and I'm worried that Gukesh will defeat Ding in a lopsidedly convincing manner
I think it solely depends on ding rather than gukesh if ygm
Up and coming players don't always have a rating that matches their ability. Match play is different than tournament play. Gukesh - "He's a very clever boy!"
And Ding has been absent or out of form ALL year
Let's hope it's exciting!
Ding couldn't have been WC unless Magnus stepped down.
Yeh that's part of my point
@@ChessCenturion at one point you said something along the lines of "if magnus hadn't stepped down, and ding became world champion, I wouldn't question the legitimacy of his WCC title". I was just responding to this part. I know you know this, but just saying that a Magnus vs Ding WCC match would have required a lot of strange circumstances to occur (like Nepo stepping down)
Im curious if you dismiss other world championship tournaments if the best team/player doesnt end up winning.
If the team that wins the World Cup of Football isnt the #1 ranked country, do they not deserve the title of World Champion?
I get your point, but let's take the recent euros where spain won. Spain beat the best teams in the world like France, Germany and England to win. Ding didn't beat Magnus or fabi or hikaru in a proper match format to gain the title of WCC if u get my point, I guess candidates of old where matches were separated and drawn out over longer periods kinda solved that problem
How would you fix the lack of legitimacy of the world championship then?
Honestly, unless you could force Magnus to return to the candidates, idk
I feel like doing is just going through a hard time and if possible, getting therapy or getting mentally healthy will make this matchup very interesting
For sure, it'll be an exciting match if Ding heals up
My argument is that Magnus always had the chance to take participation in the candidates it is not like someone is stopping him. He made his choice ,we cant not assume that he is simply bored ,he actually might not be in a good shape for long grinding series of matches during these past 2 years. Yeah he might be in good shape now looking at his performance in recent tournaments. I mean hikaru was the norway chess champion for some time when magnus was still there.The point is Players were given the same opportunity and chances for winning the championship. Just because magnus says his bored ,that might not actually be the case. For that year, Ding was the best and no one can deny that. This year also in candidates , everyone was given the same chances and the young Gukesh persisted.So, if he defeats ding liren and become the world champion ,he is by definition the best in the World. And if Magnus and his supporters are not satisfied with that, It is always okay and welcome for Magnus to challenge Gukesh in the next championship. And Someone can also argue that Kasparov is also alive and the same thing can also be said in terms of magnus being the world champion .And yeah Kasparov is retired but can you not also say the same for Magnus backing out for two years ?. In the end, Magnus is always welcomed to challenge the world champion but for this year he and his supporter including myself have to be modest and fair regarding the coming championship.
I agree with the fact that of course everyone has equal opportunity to challenge but when the best player in the world isn't participating, it's moreso just another tournament rather than the most prestigious chess tournament imo
Look at tennis! The number one player is not necessarily a grand slam winner. The winner is the one who wins the tournament! . if the best player refuses to play......
i don't blame you if you see how magnus plays, wins and demolishes every opponent in the tournaments he plays with total domination..you expect others to be in the same league..but its an unhealthy habit to put blind expectations based on comparison and later pass the blame.
Surely the world champion has to be the person who wins the most recent world championship match? Isn't that also how it works in any other sport? You likely don't remember :) the chaos at the beginning of the century when the chess world split and there was more than one so called world champion... Noone wants that to happen again. There have been many times in chess history where the world champion was not necessarily the strongest player at the time, such as Rubinstein (whilst he remained sane) and Keres.
Totally understand your viewpoint, I would argue that ding didn't dethrone Magnus to take the title though
@@ChessCenturion Right, but if the current snooker champion (Wilson, I think, had to look it up :)) decided to retire, or just miss a year, would the next guy not be a valid World Champ?
I know nothing about snooker but unless the guy who inherited the title was almost or just as good as the retired champ then that sounds fine to me but I just don't think ding is close enough to Magnus in ability
I do agree that this is not that top notch level but to be fair, Fabiano (for whom I was actually cheering for) is not playing classical at that great level either. If he was, he would have won the candidates. I know there's a lot of Ding bashing as his performance is subpar and that's why I have been supporting the idea that previous year's winner should also go through the candidates, so we won't have a title defender who is underperforming. However, would still say that Ding is one of the strongest classical players next to Magnus lately when looking at peak performance. Ding had a 100 game unbroken classical streak, which is only beaten by Magnus. Of course that currently doesn't matter as he has his health issues.
The candidates used to be decided by match play. I reckon that was better from an accuracy point of view, but they can't get away with that these days, because the format was intermittent, consuming a lot of time and resources... They wanted something that could be resolved in one event.
True, candidates in like the 70s was way longer and over many events, whether that was better or worse, who knows?
It is the same format with Snooker.
no arms???
They shall return
Fischer knew Karpov was the better player. During the Karpov-Kasparov matches Fischer said that he couldn't believe that chess could be played at such a high level. Apparently their play was beyond Fischer's capacity.
Never heard that, do you know where you heard it from? Very interesting
@@ChessCenturion It stemmed from Fischer's belief that the matches were prearranged. I've looked for it again, but can't find it. Also, there is something on Chessbase about "Was Fischer afraid of Karpov?" a review on My Great Predecessors IV where Kasparov believes Karpov would have defeated Fischer.
You're entitled to your opinion, as am I, and anyone else, for that matter. The only legitimacy that matters is that Ding retains his title or that Gukesh is the new World Champion. These two are the finalists, so lets enjoy their games as you said. By the way, noticed games in the background which I hope you'll analyse as I enjoy your games, hopefully making me a better player, after a long time away from Chess.
More *normal* videos will return, just experimenting with some video formats rn :)
Fischer gave up chess entirely in 1975. Magnus just gave up the WCC and keeps winning almost everything he takes part in.
Also, Karpov, after gaining the title "easily" went on to dominate for close to a decade in tournament chess, basically winning every major tournament and showing he was the best player in the world. Ding barely plays and, when he does, seems out of form and unmotivated.
Gukesh is also not the most exciting player in the world, to put it mildly. His stule of play is basically what everyone has been complaing about for the last few years: technical with a solid classical repertoire.