I was always struck by the phrase "Mythic Underworld" to describe the dungeon. It so clearly explains things like why the doors are locked for players and not monsters, and why converted enemy monsters lose the ability to see in the dark.
I think dungeons lost their mystique because the character of the mythic underworld was carved off and given to the Underdark and the Shadowfell. Likewise the wilderness lost some of its character to the Feywild.
We can reclaim the weirdness and wonder of the dungeon, though. I think we can get caught up in the codification of rules as unalterable. However, the rules as presented can be interpreted as applicable mostly or even only to PCs. The alien monsters that inhabit the underworld could very well be from a parallel reality, dimension or universe and operate by different laws of physics and magic, giving them bizarre and lethal abilities while having equally strange weaknesses that the players must puzzle out and exploit. That is, make your bad guys interesting and unique to add flavor and a sense of danger. Your players will enjoy it and it’s a good way to work around meta-gaming without seeming unfair.
@@BanditsKeep My first thought when I read this was that some amusement park was releasing a new kind of ride. Boy, would that be one heck of a ride :)
Many years ago I had a dungeon I called Akrid's Dungeon, which was a multi-floored dungeon that they players had to escape from. They could either go up or down, and I had some floors connected to others. I guess I ran it as a "Gygaxian" Dungeon. The players loved it, it was kind of like a Death Trap Dungeon, but with hints of Gygax. The only thing I didn't use in it were 1-way doors. I need to try that next time! Great video!
"How To Make A Fun House Dungeon" These are the kinds of dungeons my kids make now that they've taken up D&D. I remember the giant's bowling alley but not from OD&D. They included it in one of the D&D CYOA books, Return to Brookmere IIRC. oh, BTW. Never pick up any duck you find in a dungeon.
I played original DnD when i was younger, then moved on to other RPGs, when coming back to DnD i didnt notice all these little changes, but its fascinating to revisit them. things like having players (potentially from different groups) in the same world and competing with each other for resources was so natural playing original DnD, i am sad we lost that and i miss it. this is making me want to run an original DnD style 5e campaign.
The best dm i ever had always made a way out of combat with puzzles. If you were smart enough you could bypass many of the harder fights. He was always changing a dungeon. One time my fighter crossed into a room that looked fine, but once i entered i found a hard monster. I was able to trick the monster though and ended up saving my friends. I will never forget that encounter
You know what? Reading the "Delicious in Dungeon" manga made me understand what OD&D dungeons are. I really recommend it! It has a dragon on the 5th level and it makes perfect sense in retrospect.
During COVID lockdown I ran a mega dungeon crawl based on Dyson Logo’s Heart of the Darkling megadelve map series. It was super fun. Each area (level) had its own ecology, and these area interacted with each other like factions (like Caves of Chaos). It was also during this that I decided to put a Cthulhu-style alien intelligence at the heart of the dungeon, who exercised a sinister and alien influence of the caves’ inhabitants and the caves themselves. I like thinking of dungeons as alien intelligences with their own motives.
The explanation as to why there are dragons on this level of the dungeon was always simple. "You're in a dungeon. Of course there is a dragon, this isn't shoots and ladders."
As someone who grew up on BX and then eventually 1e I cannot bring to memory any time when I as a DM had to tell the group why something was where it was. The town was just a place where we parked characters before they went down the dungeon again. In my personal opinion I feel that the major shift between when BX was released and 5e is that back then each person was responsible for entertaining themselves whereas nowadays the responsibility is on the DM to entertain the players. Makes me miss "the good ole' days". :)
My understanding is this shift happened (or began) during 2nd edition and the larger “campaigns” but I was out of the hobby then, so I am only repeating things I’ve heard vs my own experience
@@BanditsKeep I think you have a very good point although I think you could see things shifting during 1st edition right before 2nd edition came out when you began seeing entire books on how to customize each of the different character types. This made characters into something more than just a basic set of stats and something you could personalize based on your own "flavor". Then with the Dragonlance stuff coming out you began seeing a lot of story-based campaign stuff being released which began more of a narrative style of play. Modules in my opinion shifted from "this is what this farm has in it" to "this is the motivation of the farmer who is secretly a cultist". i think the intentions were noble but I think they got carried away (and why 3rd edition had a bit of a reboot in my opinion).
Dragon Magazine and its sister Dungeon Magazine published many articles that slowly introduced "dungeon ecology" to the game. It was a creeping phenomenon that had its own strengths and weaknesses.
From the Lit RPG genre - The dungeon is alive, and wants to eat you and "Swallow your soul!" It may also be bored, and enjoy playing with your head. Monsters are literally spawned out of excess energy. Treasure is a lure to bring in fresh bodies and souls. Smart dungeons learn to play fair and be entertaining, in order to ensure a steady flow of potential victims (aka food).
I still tend to keep to the definition I first learned, "A dungeon is a group of rooms and corridors in which monsters and treasures can be found." So something like a ruined fortress could be a dungeon or part of a dungeon. A town? Not really, it is implied to be an enclosed space...so if the city is buried or was built underground.... I still find the idea of a "five room dungeon" strange, though -- the unspoken part of the definition to me is that a dungeon is of substantial size, so anything that can be described with the word "five room" to me is a lair not a dungeon.
I don't take it literally. To me, "5-room" means 5 significant encounter area rooms. There might be 10 other rooms that aren't necessarily empty, but they aren't notable XP-earning places.
Great video! I am often impressed with how text I have read many times can acquire new meaning when seen through another's point of view. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this classic. You make an old favorite fresh again. 👍
I think you really captured the spirit of the dungeon... and the draw to the game in the early days. The game was unusual and strange and was in fact the actual dungeon itself. This is really good insight to reflect on, 40 years after I started playing. Thanks for posting this!
"Everything is a dungeon" is a conceptual shorthand that works for video games. For example it's easier to explain how D&D Online plays that way. But I do agree that the term should be something special when it comes to TTRPGs at least because they allow you to do so much more.
This is my favorite topic. Love old school mega-dungeons don't know many others in real life though. Going to add one way doors and monsters using treasure for fishing bait in my mega dungeon! Thanks.
I'm paused on the first couple seconds of this thing, holding onto my initial reading of "Gygax the Dungeon", in the vein of "Spaceballs the Lunchbox". /reflects on all that could have been/ Okay Daniel, kill my beautiful dream.
Daniel this might be my favourite ever RPG video - thank you. Completely explains where the “feel” of Mentzer Basic came from, which I grew up with. For me now: I’ve been playing with my kids, in one hour sessions, with minis on battle mats which they like. For the next run, I’ll give them the choice of Gygax style dungeoneering or something more episodic like B10 nights dark terror
Check out AEON Ancient Greece zine vol 1 and 2. It has the labyrinth of Daedalus as a DCc funnel with Daedalus somehow prolonging his life and creating all these weird clones of Icarus, mecha ants working in a quarry, etc etc. I just finished the funnel and onto the next part of the labyrinth at level 1!
Great video about a fun era of the game. And I used concepts from that booklet (photocopied from a friend's brother), Mike Carr's excellent B1 - In Search of the Unknown, and the sample dungeon in the Holmes era boxed set that I started with to create dungeons focused on being entertaining more than anything else. Even if my players have occasionally accused me, perhaps with some reason, of making some of them more fun for me than for them. 😛 I've often said that the problem with AD&D/D&D is that it went from being a game for creatives to becoming more and more a game for actuaries. In the earlier eras of the game, when I began back in early '79, playing the game didn't necessarily follow a logical pathway because it was a creative endeavor. It could be more like Alice's adventures in Wonderland (which led to a pair of fun if almost completely irrational modules from Gary inserting those stories into his Castle Greyhawk campaign) instead of the very realistic and properly constrained interiors, like those of one's school, church, or other familiar building that I at least would occasionally alter somewhat for a spur-of-the-moment adventure site. But it seemed that somewhere after Gary left and Lorraine Williams took over the company the mindset changed from potentially illogical fun to a set of realistic parameters. That by itself wasn't a bad thing, but there began to be a bigger and bigger focus on rules and more rules instead of fun. 3rd edition was built solidly on this platform as there seemed to be a 3:1 (or more) ratio of rulebooks:adventure modules. 2nd edition had started on this path too, but it just seemed to get worse. It was an actuary's game now: risk and reward easily calculated and many options for optimizing one's chances for maximum reward with minimal risk. 1st edition had around 90 official modules made and 6 to 8 books of rules (depending on how one interprets the concept of a rulebook. For example, I wouldn't count Monster Manuals because they generally didn't introduce rules, but others might). That roughly 10:1 module:rulebook ratio put the focus more on fun than rules to my mind, and that's why (even though I have willingly tried every edition of D&D and still play 5th ed games at times) I absolutely prefer 1st edition, when fun trumped rules.
@@BanditsKeep And maybe it was a different mindset prevalent back in the 70s and 80s, but myself and other DMs I knew had no problem making well-reasoned and consistent rulings off the cuff when we didn't know the rule or when there wasn't a rule for a particular situation and/or whatever wild hair the player decided was a great plan for the moment that even Errol Flynn might have taken a pass on. 😀 Some of the neophyte DMs I play with get this panicked look on their faces whenever I say I'm going to do something that I know that there's probably no rule for or it's obscure as heck if it exists at all. It seems that the more rules there are, the more limited the game gets and the less fun there is. Speaking of Errol, sure, I have enough vague knowledge to say that I can make an Acrobatics/Athletics check to swing from the chandelier and then an unarmed combat attack to try to use my momentum to bowl over the guardsmen and another Acrobatics/Athletics check or three to see if I can roll to a standing position and then use my remaining movement to vault the belltower railing and slide down the bellrope to safety. There'd be penalties, probably escalating ones, with each step of the movement, but I know how to handle it though I don't officially know how to DM 5e since I've barely skimmed the PHB. But the look of shock and surprise on the DMs face was worth the reply of "You can't DO that!" 😀 But I was raised with the DM philosophy of "Don't ever say no off the cuff. Consider, assign difficulty, and let them try it." I call that Gary's Rule.
Another great video. I have a "watch again" folder I save some of my favorite videos to, so I can watch them again later of course. Almost all of the Bandit's Keep videos get saved there.
A lot of people I play with hate to map. They have created spells to map for them, sacrificing spell slots for ease of play. Changing it on them like that would get a lot of them to quit. Repopulation is another thing altogether. A collapsed passage or new lock on a door is an understandable change that will not make them rage quit.
Daniel - I love bizarre and alien dungeon environments. I’ve got a step pyramid / temple dungeon with a greater mummy, crawling with other-worldly baddies thanks to a portal to another dimension, magical traps, a teleportation platform to move between levels, and lost treasures that rival that of the wealthiest kings and sultans. I’m a huge fan of old school and really appreciate your treatment and reviews.
Gygax seemed to be obsessed with slanting passages, to the point where that was on of the major abilities of dwarfs in ODnD. I don't know why, but he got a kick out of tricking players into going deeper into the dungeon, sooner than they were able to deal with the challenges within.
I'm a new DM and I ran a dungeon crawl classic session for my groups. It was a lot of fun throwing random encounters at them that were not all "in theme". It kept my players engagement high and my own interest watching them getting across the glass bridge (squid games). Lol.
The QB and DC videos you mentioned are awesome and very similar to how I run my current game. But thank you very much for this video on the "original dungeon". I have a module that is very old school in feel, but the "plot" isn't right for my game, so I've been thinking about how to incorporate it into the setting. Making it a crazy dungeon in this manner gives it a place! I completely agree with "know your players." We know the "3 pillars of exploration, social, and combat." I also have "3 keys of successful gaming." 1 know your table/players, 2 know the system (different games/editions have different feels and may be more suited to a style of play and how a house rule may have unintentional side effects) 3 know the setting/purpose (so everyone understands the premise: old school feel, mythological heroics, grimdark, etc.) Another great video!
Another good video. I cut my gaming teeth on a home-brewed game of Original D&D many years ago. D&D has undergone some fundamental changes since then. 5e isn't anywhere near the same game and can't be played the same way. I'm not saying one is superior to the other, but each is different even if they share the same name. In my opinion, 5e is geared around short bursts, low-attention span sessions. OD&D was for a sustained game over many years amongst friends. The megadungeon provided this as your beloved characters grew into mythic heroes.
It seems the adventure paths are meant to be played out in about 6 months from my understanding- and to go from low to heroic levels, so you may have something here.
Although I understand the logic of it, I have never really liked the “need for ecology” argument for dungeon creation. I have heard this leveled against, for example, B2 The Keep on the Borderlands (the Caves of Chaos dungeon part) and it takes the form of things like, “what do these monsters eat?” and other things where the reality of the laws of the surface world are applied equally to the subterranean dungeon world. The need to make the dungeon abide by the same ecological laws of the surface environment while seeming very logical, misses the point of “dungeons” to me. They are strange, scary places to surface dwellers in part because they violate the laws of physics and ecology present on the surface. By making the dungeon simply an underground version of the surface world, there is a lost opportunity for excitement and amazement IMHO. So thanks for this video!
For the record, my impression of reading B2 was that the monsters often left the dungeon to get food. Likewise, from reading the basic manual, my impression was that wandering monsters in a dungeon might be creatures that had wandered into the dungeon to find food
Some of Gary's dungeon design was actually quite amusing, like the giant bowling alley. I'm not sure I can really imitate his style though. He was unique.
@@BanditsKeep I really think the thing that makes Gary's dungeons different is they are designed to test the players themselves just as much as their characters. Like Tomb of Horrors, almost impossible to get in the durn thing at all unless you are knowledgeable in the play style.
Making the changing nature of the dungeon the theme of the dungeon. Spread legends and lore about the cult of wild magic using sorcerers, the secret temple to the goddess of chaos, and/or the magical rift to the demi-plane of creation… Have the randomness “leaking” into the world above, with farmer’s fields of wheat suddenly turning into fields of wildflowers, the king’s crown suddenly replaced by a halibut, cows giving birth to two-headed calves, and that sort of thing. Make that the inciting incident that puts the heroes into the dungeon.
One thing that captured my imagination with the Mythic underworld is that it doesn't have to be spacial congruent with the "real world" As such I have been wanting to make a map for hex crawls and there being "modern" or regular grounded in the world dungeons and ruins but at the lowest levels they could connect to various parts of the Mythic Underworld Dungeon which exists outside of time and space so the various entrances could be hundreds of miles apart. You have just done down far enough to reach a different reality that is beyond time and space and can include the past or future and fantastical were one might even find dead former PCs or give the PCs the opportunity to relive or experience history events. That might even be the reason they seek the underworld to experience a history event to unlock a clue or information they need for the present
I thought about about an idea for my own world, to have these more nonsensical mysterious dungeons while still having the more regular stuff. Essentially, a long long time ago massive metallic pyramids appeared for seemingly no reason. When they appeared, some humanoids and monsters alike disappeared, now theorized to have been drawn into the pyramids to become their denizens. There are no apparent physical entrances, however there are symbols all over the pyramid that when touch, will transport that creature inside the pyramid. Once there traditional teleportation doesn't work to get out of the dungeon (although it can work between levels one has discovered). There are four pyramid types, each with five levels (copper, silver, gold, platinum). It should be noted that while made to atleast appear like precious metals, the pyramids are seemingly instructable. A person cannot leave until they make it to the final level of that pyramid. Once completed, that person may never again do a pyramid of that type again. It is theorized that the pyramids are massive training grounds. For what reason, is still a mystery. All that is truly known is that great power and wealth await those who successfully venture into them.
Could we have both? A break down of the sample dungeon then taking what we learned there create a new dungeon? I think that would be cool, like a 2 part show with a to be continued in the middle
I always use Gurps when designing the world I campaign, and there are a lot of aspects which apply in building dungeons. I seriously think Gygax had it on point in the original version of D&D. Later edtions after he left lost a great deal of character.
I like how fun house dungeons bring the focus back to exciting/good gameplay. But I have to say on the whole I tend to prefer dungeons that make (more) sense (or perhaps "toned down/limited" mythical underworld dungeons).
My players always knew that (they're DM's actual career was mechanical engineer) & they knew that my dungeons would be challenging but would also make sense. They knew their DM wouldn't just place random stuff just to be placing it & if it was random their had to be a reason for the randomness & then they would try to figure put why it was random! 😉👍. Even tho some got "the rubber axe" I would explain to them... "because Westgate has a lot of organized crime that's the reason why the city guard are equipped with metalized nets for snaring evil-doers with sharp swords.
So you gave me an idea. Sorry if it's clanky -- near the middle of the text i realized that it's not really suitable for an UA-cam comment, but alas. I had one "dungeon" in mind that was literally four rooms with goblins (as first-time DM for some first-time players). Moreover one of the rooms is just a corridor with a simple one-time trap and other room is a secret cript (loot&sacrophages) that needs a puzzle to be solved to open it. Basically "A Tomb" by M. Collville. Prepped it to test my narrating skills -- but i started to think it could be considered bland and maybe even irritate some players as a waste of time if they leave without opening a secret door. So now the Tomb has shard of a stone tablet in front of an entrance reading "... shall not leave". If spared, goblin shaman will tell you meaning of a tablet before it was smashed was: "Those who kill another on a sacred ground shall not leave". The rule (let's say it's an enchantment) works if the grounds were not desecrated by goblins sacrificing an innocent villager to their god -- when any living creature is killed inside the "dungeon". If Tomb is affected by this enchantment then players, exiting from the furthest non-secret room will not be able to pass through the corridor where a trap was. Players are granted passage if a riddle is solved and secret room is discovered. If they fail to discern the answer to the riddle, and exceed some time limit then secret room is opened from within and undead attack. After defeating the undead an enchantment is lifted and passage is clear once again. Is it too forcefull, or for a first duneon ever this kind of linearity is fine?
My only thought is that the “hint” at the beginning is not a clue at all and this could feel a bit like a railroad to the players during the time they are trapped - the fact that you have an alternate option (undead open the way) if the PCs fail to solve the puzzle is good though. I’d likely have the first goblin they encounter tell them that if they kill him they can never leave - is it a trick? Who knows…
Sorry: i made it too vague, but a puzzle to open a secret door is a worded riddle etched into the knight's statue. And first room of this sequence contains a mural with principles of this knights' Order hinting at the solution. But wait, there's more :D Leaving rooms as is makes murals with a hint unaccessible after enchantment goes up. And now i wonder if i should make any changes to rooms' arrangement, or it would be more fun to make it like real-life intellegence check: "Will the heroes remember, that they saw answer for a riddle after a combat will have passed?.."
The expectation at that time was that the dungeon was like a soap opera or serial: it was never meant to end, and it got weirder the longer it went on, just to keep things interesting. The publication of modules that were written for tournament play led to the dungeon as more of a gauntlet with a prize at the end for those who successfully completed it. Then came story adventures with a sequence of scenes or mini environments to explore and a big bad guy who needed to be defeated. A popular type of dungeon now is more akin to a video-game level: Pretty short, with a start and a finish, a few tricks and choices along the way, and a mini-boss at the end. Just an observation, not a judgment. All of them can be fun.
We're going back to D&D after ages with OSE/BX. But to be honest me and my players need to keep the weirdness in check somehow, or we coudn't make it through the "uncunny valley". Make sense to the weird is important too I guess :_) So I really need to embrace the "Mythic Underground" concept. I think I'm going to make "Mythic Underground" itself an element of the world to discover for my players. Like something that has a real explanation. Something similar to finding the true nature of the Maelstrom in Apocalypse World if you're familar. Do you think it's cool? Any suggestions?
I can’t remember, which version of ODnD do you like to play? I wanted to pick one up. I already have OSE (old school essentials) but I’d like to have some form of the original.
well I'm old school enough to have had to order it from the back of the hobby magazine in 1974. I've never referred to anything as a dungeon other than an actual dungeon. everything else I consider to be an encounter area. you can have the deadly swamps or the evil spiderfield forest or whatever but those are encounter areas not dungeons. the whole definition of a dungeon is that it's underground isn't it?
To me a Gygax dungeon meant your PC needed to be equipped and prepared for anything. I always hear people complain when a 1st level module would throw a ghoul against the PC when they had no access to a magic weapon. Well there was a reason silver daggers and silver tipped arrows were in the equipment lists. Wolfsbane, garlic, mirrors, iron spikes, 10 foot poles.... Be prepared or die.
Do you think these principles of changing dungeons around as the pc's leave and come back is possible or worth while if your players dont map dungeons? That was just never a principle that was developed among my play group.
I think they can if you describe / explain the change “ you head north toward the stairway to level 2 and find a room with 3 rotting goblin bodies… you notice 3 of the ranger’s arrows in one of them…” if they are paying attention or taking notes they will remember they killed those goblins 3 days ago in some rooms to the south, not the north.
I tend to prefer the dungeons with gygaxian naturalism, that work as habitation for different creatures and factions. I only like Mythic Underworld perspective (with the everchanging corridors, unexplainable features, etc) under certain circumstances, like a dungeon that has a portal to a plane of chaos and is affected by the very force of raw creation or stuff like that.
I highly suggest checking out the essays from Hack and Slash, and his infrequent zine, Megadungeon. He covers very similar ideas from the same source. He focus on high weirdness D&D and it is very fun and refreshing.
@@BanditsKeep I love the mythic underworld style games, especially for your mysterious dungeons from days of yore. There is room for both kinds in a campaign. I use mythic/mega dungeons as artifacts from a time when the world was less structured and more Chaotic. When Law was less strong. As you descend they make less and less "sense" except mythically. Mythic dungeons are also full of treasure, much more than any plot dungeon would be, so when PCs have goals that need money (all of them) they delve deep to get it, then they come out and raise armies, or fight tyrants. It can also allow for the gaining of magic items they want or information that would otherwise be unavailable.. It allows me to step out of the structured story, if they want to risk for reward. Semi OT, in my games Elves represent an elevated type of human from a prior age. They reincarnate with some of that old magic (thus elf magics) and all kinds of minor superiorities, but they advance slowly because they are not of this world. Also they have little memories of their prior lives (unless it is good for the game). Each is on a quest for their own perfection and when they reach as far as they can get as mortals (say around 12th level) they ascend to another plane. Old insane elves that refuse to ascend are the cause of much chaos and not a little a few funhouse dungeons.
As I now do as much solo gaming as running for a group (well running for my stepson, as I am semi retired from hunting for players), I am working for some auto generation rules for mythic dungeons, and finally getting to explore them they way I have always wanted. After 30 years of DMing, and so many projects left abandoned by players (the cruelty!) I am actually really good at solo gaming and enjoying it a lot. Mega dungeons of the Gygax style fit in very well for me.
Oh, still love your videos. I love all kinds of games but your style is like coming home for me. (if my home were full of medusa, giant ants, orcs, etc)
RE: Mythic Dungeons and treasure I love treasure for XP, but if you want to tie it into a setting reality, the fact that it comes out of this mythic place could explain the characters leveling. Delving into the depths has changed them. They are now a bit mythic themselves. Which is why their peers are now monsters and dragons rather than ordinary men... just a thought.
Honestly, I think that style of play is better as video game, like the Diablo series. Since I don't see how I get entertainment out of it was the DM, which is why I prefer games with more narrative elements, but I guess there are people who enjoy running that kind o game for some reason. And for that reason I occasionally play with the thought of designing an OSR game that brings back that Diablo, Castlevania, rogue-like dungeon delving style of playing by hyper focusing on those aspects and take the things that have emerged in video games over the years to the TTRPG hobby. But my heart is not really in it, as much as I love designing TTRPGs (even though I am not yet done with my first game), I feel like this should be probably be done by someone who actually wants to run that kind of game. Anyway, I am rambling now...
@@BanditsKeep I didn't said pre-determined plot, I am not interested in that either. But this is too much world simulation for my taste, too little thematic play, not enough emphasis on wants and needs of the characters. Character's remain shallow since all display of any personality is just vain, it lacks the depth and meaning narrative tools can provide. But sure, some kind of story will emerge in that style too, but it is not the kind of story I would prefer, that is a little more personal and thus leaves me as player with some kind of catharsis.
@@BanditsKeep As in how Arneson approached dungeon design as seen in Blackmoor, Temple of the Frog, and other sources. He was a lot more "fast and loose" with concepts, such as enjoying a good blend of science fiction in his fantasy.
@@Arcboltkonrad13 Blackmoor is interesting and massive. The sample dungeon in “Adventures in Fantasy” is much more down to earth though. You’ve definitely caught my interest here… I may seek out “the first fantasy campaign” as well since it seems to be based on parts of Blackmoor as well.
Important to remember, when Gygax and his contemporaries were writing this stuff, it was all pretty new and they didn't have 30 years of development to build on. I think Gygax was really much more intrigued by the labyrinth of tricks, traps, and monsters as a game rather than a realistic world setting. It really wasn't until Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms came along that a realistic fantasy world was more of a consideration and the game matured. Even Greyhawk felt more like just a fairly shallow world designed to house dungeons.
@@BanditsKeep yes 😁 but what kind of magic. A cunning mage of the last age? Or a dead dragons magic? Or a broken magical sphere? Or a mighty level 12 wish spell from a long lost spellbook written on the skin of a god? 😅
I feel like I'm being too much of an egghead when I say it, but the underworld is weird and nonsensical. Rolling a ball uphill eternally? Futility as an expression of eternal torment is going to conflict with purpose and attaching meaning to this is absurdity. It's not like the other encounter and places, it's "the dungeon" (underworld). Pretty much a different language than 5 room Mr. Potter.
I don't like the concept of the dungeon in general. Its just too weird and illogical. I think it is possible to make it logical by incorporating it into the concept of the world itself. So for example perhaps there was a cataclysm in the ancient world where society had to move underground and built a huge underworld. The game would start thousands of years later where the players come from the world above and start exploring the ancient underworld..
I agree with Gary, but less so Daniel's interpretation of the text. I like to have a solid logic to my dungeons, and I tick all of the things you set out. 30% combat doesn’t mean 70% empty either. I would love to talk to you more about the subject as I feel Gygax didn’t make the most optimal user interface for dungeon design and improvements can and have been made over the years.
That’s cool, you don’t have to agree with me, that’s what makes this game so cool! But only 1/3 of the rooms with monsters is what is written, not my idea or interpretation 🤷🏻♂️
@@BanditsKeep Yeah I agree! Thats my point. I think the idea of calling a non-combat encounter room "Empty" is missleading because there are so many other things that could and should be in the other 70% of the dungeon. So i agree with what is written but you said the rest would be empty. I assume you meant empty of monsters not 4 bare walls and a well swept floor, but that isnt actually clear. I think very room should have 1-3 encounters in and only 3 in 10 rooms in a dungeon should be combat encounters. Reoccuring interactive features, puzzles, traps, hazards, skill challenges, social encounters, secrets/environmental story telling and treasure can all be mounted up for a richdungeon location. I use a statblock for my rooms.
@@granttrain3553 sounds interesting - I prefer not to “over fill” my dungeons - and that is what the text suggests as well .. stat blocks for every room… not my style, but cool if it works for you!
I was always struck by the phrase "Mythic Underworld" to describe the dungeon. It so clearly explains things like why the doors are locked for players and not monsters, and why converted enemy monsters lose the ability to see in the dark.
For sure
I think dungeons lost their mystique because the character of the mythic underworld was carved off and given to the Underdark and the Shadowfell. Likewise the wilderness lost some of its character to the Feywild.
We can reclaim the weirdness and wonder of the dungeon, though. I think we can get caught up in the codification of rules as unalterable. However, the rules as presented can be interpreted as applicable mostly or even only to PCs. The alien monsters that inhabit the underworld could very well be from a parallel reality, dimension or universe and operate by different laws of physics and magic, giving them bizarre and lethal abilities while having equally strange weaknesses that the players must puzzle out and exploit.
That is, make your bad guys interesting and unique to add flavor and a sense of danger. Your players will enjoy it and it’s a good way to work around meta-gaming without seeming unfair.
"... inhabited by monsters, human or otherwise..."
Gygax knew who the real monsters were...
Indeed!
Politicians!
I read this as "Gygax, The Dungeon" and I was intrigued. Now that I know that we are using "Gygax" as a verb instead of a noun, I am very intrigued.
The first idea could be very interesting as well!
@@BanditsKeep My first thought when I read this was that some amusement park was releasing a new kind of ride. Boy, would that be one heck of a ride :)
@@KenSexe67 It's the Dungeons and Dragons' ride... Venger awaits
Many years ago I had a dungeon I called Akrid's Dungeon, which was a multi-floored dungeon that they players had to escape from. They could either go up or down, and I had some floors connected to others.
I guess I ran it as a "Gygaxian" Dungeon.
The players loved it, it was kind of like a Death Trap Dungeon, but with hints of Gygax.
The only thing I didn't use in it were 1-way doors. I need to try that next time!
Great video!
Sounds super fun, I have been using more and more one way doors lately - it’s one of those things I kinda forget about then come back to
"How To Make A Fun House Dungeon"
These are the kinds of dungeons my kids make now that they've taken up D&D.
I remember the giant's bowling alley but not from OD&D. They included it in one of the D&D CYOA books, Return to Brookmere IIRC.
oh, BTW. Never pick up any duck you find in a dungeon.
Definitely good advice
The more I learn about 70's D&D the more it seems like an acid trip without the acid.
Ha ha
I played original DnD when i was younger, then moved on to other RPGs, when coming back to DnD i didnt notice all these little changes, but its fascinating to revisit them. things like having players (potentially from different groups) in the same world and competing with each other for resources was so natural playing original DnD, i am sad we lost that and i miss it. this is making me want to run an original DnD style 5e campaign.
I don’t see why that would not be possible, could be really enjoyable
The best dm i ever had always made a way out of combat with puzzles. If you were smart enough you could bypass many of the harder fights. He was always changing a dungeon. One time my fighter crossed into a room that looked fine, but once i entered i found a hard monster. I was able to trick the monster though and ended up saving my friends. I will never forget that encounter
Awesome
You know what? Reading the "Delicious in Dungeon" manga made me understand what OD&D dungeons are. I really recommend it! It has a dragon on the 5th level and it makes perfect sense in retrospect.
I’ll have to check that out, I have not read it
During COVID lockdown I ran a mega dungeon crawl based on Dyson Logo’s Heart of the Darkling megadelve map series. It was super fun. Each area (level) had its own ecology, and these area interacted with each other like factions (like Caves of Chaos). It was also during this that I decided to put a Cthulhu-style alien intelligence at the heart of the dungeon, who exercised a sinister and alien influence of the caves’ inhabitants and the caves themselves. I like thinking of dungeons as alien intelligences with their own motives.
Sounds awesome
The explanation as to why there are dragons on this level of the dungeon was always simple. "You're in a dungeon. Of course there is a dragon, this isn't shoots and ladders."
😂
Pretty cool, man. I love that you're talking about getting inspired by this.
I appreciate that!
As someone who grew up on BX and then eventually 1e I cannot bring to memory any time when I as a DM had to tell the group why something was where it was. The town was just a place where we parked characters before they went down the dungeon again. In my personal opinion I feel that the major shift between when BX was released and 5e is that back then each person was responsible for entertaining themselves whereas nowadays the responsibility is on the DM to entertain the players. Makes me miss "the good ole' days". :)
My understanding is this shift happened (or began) during 2nd edition and the larger “campaigns” but I was out of the hobby then, so I am only repeating things I’ve heard vs my own experience
@@BanditsKeep I think you have a very good point although I think you could see things shifting during 1st edition right before 2nd edition came out when you began seeing entire books on how to customize each of the different character types. This made characters into something more than just a basic set of stats and something you could personalize based on your own "flavor". Then with the Dragonlance stuff coming out you began seeing a lot of story-based campaign stuff being released which began more of a narrative style of play. Modules in my opinion shifted from "this is what this farm has in it" to "this is the motivation of the farmer who is secretly a cultist". i think the intentions were noble but I think they got carried away (and why 3rd edition had a bit of a reboot in my opinion).
Dragon Magazine and its sister Dungeon Magazine published many articles that slowly introduced "dungeon ecology" to the game. It was a creeping phenomenon that had its own strengths and weaknesses.
I especially liked the advice at the end. Good overall life philosophy.
Thanks 🙏🏻
From the Lit RPG genre - The dungeon is alive, and wants to eat you and "Swallow your soul!" It may also be bored, and enjoy playing with your head. Monsters are literally spawned out of excess energy. Treasure is a lure to bring in fresh bodies and souls. Smart dungeons learn to play fair and be entertaining, in order to ensure a steady flow of potential victims (aka food).
I like this - the more deadly and “unfair” the dungeon is, the less adventurers will come to “feed” it
I still tend to keep to the definition I first learned, "A dungeon is a group of rooms and corridors in which monsters and treasures can be found." So something like a ruined fortress could be a dungeon or part of a dungeon. A town? Not really, it is implied to be an enclosed space...so if the city is buried or was built underground....
I still find the idea of a "five room dungeon" strange, though -- the unspoken part of the definition to me is that a dungeon is of substantial size, so anything that can be described with the word "five room" to me is a lair not a dungeon.
I can see that point of view for sure
I can see that point of view for sure
I don't take it literally. To me, "5-room" means 5 significant encounter area rooms. There might be 10 other rooms that aren't necessarily empty, but they aren't notable XP-earning places.
I loved this video. I wish others put as much thought into their videos.
Thank You!
Great video!
I am often impressed with how text I have read many times can acquire new meaning when seen through another's point of view. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this classic. You make an old favorite fresh again. 👍
I agree - I love watching and listening to others talk about things I already use to get a different perspective
I think you really captured the spirit of the dungeon... and the draw to the game in the early days. The game was unusual and strange and was in fact the actual dungeon itself. This is really good insight to reflect on, 40 years after I started playing. Thanks for posting this!
Thanks!
"Everything is a dungeon" is a conceptual shorthand that works for video games. For example it's easier to explain how D&D Online plays that way. But I do agree that the term should be something special when it comes to TTRPGs at least because they allow you to do so much more.
For sure
I love the way Gygax did dungeons
I started playing back in ‘87 in 1AD&D. Gygax had some great ideas and the dungeons were deadly at times
For sure!
This is my favorite topic. Love old school mega-dungeons don't know many others in real life though.
Going to add one way doors and monsters using treasure for fishing bait in my mega dungeon! Thanks.
Awesome! Thanks
I'm paused on the first couple seconds of this thing, holding onto my initial reading of "Gygax the Dungeon", in the vein of "Spaceballs the Lunchbox".
/reflects on all that could have been/
Okay Daniel, kill my beautiful dream.
😊
Going on a Fantastic Voyage style adventure inside a descendant of Gary's?
Daniel this might be my favourite ever RPG video - thank you. Completely explains where the “feel” of Mentzer Basic came from, which I grew up with. For me now: I’ve been playing with my kids, in one hour sessions, with minis on battle mats which they like. For the next run, I’ll give them the choice of Gygax style dungeoneering or something more episodic like B10 nights dark terror
Cool! Let me know how they like the dungeon if you run that!
@@BanditsKeep well Daniel, they’ve chosen Gygax style! Here goes, I will report. Thinking of using a simple slot based encumbrance, let’s see
@@andrewhaldenby4949 awesome
I could see a Daedalus’ Labyrinth type of dungeon in this style being REALLY cool.
Yes, very cool!
Check out AEON Ancient Greece zine vol 1 and 2. It has the labyrinth of Daedalus as a DCc funnel with Daedalus somehow prolonging his life and creating all these weird clones of Icarus, mecha ants working in a quarry, etc etc. I just finished the funnel and onto the next part of the labyrinth at level 1!
Great video about a fun era of the game. And I used concepts from that booklet (photocopied from a friend's brother), Mike Carr's excellent B1 - In Search of the Unknown, and the sample dungeon in the Holmes era boxed set that I started with to create dungeons focused on being entertaining more than anything else. Even if my players have occasionally accused me, perhaps with some reason, of making some of them more fun for me than for them. 😛
I've often said that the problem with AD&D/D&D is that it went from being a game for creatives to becoming more and more a game for actuaries. In the earlier eras of the game, when I began back in early '79, playing the game didn't necessarily follow a logical pathway because it was a creative endeavor. It could be more like Alice's adventures in Wonderland (which led to a pair of fun if almost completely irrational modules from Gary inserting those stories into his Castle Greyhawk campaign) instead of the very realistic and properly constrained interiors, like those of one's school, church, or other familiar building that I at least would occasionally alter somewhat for a spur-of-the-moment adventure site. But it seemed that somewhere after Gary left and Lorraine Williams took over the company the mindset changed from potentially illogical fun to a set of realistic parameters. That by itself wasn't a bad thing, but there began to be a bigger and bigger focus on rules and more rules instead of fun. 3rd edition was built solidly on this platform as there seemed to be a 3:1 (or more) ratio of rulebooks:adventure modules. 2nd edition had started on this path too, but it just seemed to get worse. It was an actuary's game now: risk and reward easily calculated and many options for optimizing one's chances for maximum reward with minimal risk. 1st edition had around 90 official modules made and 6 to 8 books of rules (depending on how one interprets the concept of a rulebook. For example, I wouldn't count Monster Manuals because they generally didn't introduce rules, but others might). That roughly 10:1 module:rulebook ratio put the focus more on fun than rules to my mind, and that's why (even though I have willingly tried every edition of D&D and still play 5th ed games at times) I absolutely prefer 1st edition, when fun trumped rules.
Great points! I personally need more adventure and less rules
@@BanditsKeep And maybe it was a different mindset prevalent back in the 70s and 80s, but myself and other DMs I knew had no problem making well-reasoned and consistent rulings off the cuff when we didn't know the rule or when there wasn't a rule for a particular situation and/or whatever wild hair the player decided was a great plan for the moment that even Errol Flynn might have taken a pass on. 😀 Some of the neophyte DMs I play with get this panicked look on their faces whenever I say I'm going to do something that I know that there's probably no rule for or it's obscure as heck if it exists at all. It seems that the more rules there are, the more limited the game gets and the less fun there is.
Speaking of Errol, sure, I have enough vague knowledge to say that I can make an Acrobatics/Athletics check to swing from the chandelier and then an unarmed combat attack to try to use my momentum to bowl over the guardsmen and another Acrobatics/Athletics check or three to see if I can roll to a standing position and then use my remaining movement to vault the belltower railing and slide down the bellrope to safety. There'd be penalties, probably escalating ones, with each step of the movement, but I know how to handle it though I don't officially know how to DM 5e since I've barely skimmed the PHB. But the look of shock and surprise on the DMs face was worth the reply of "You can't DO that!" 😀
But I was raised with the DM philosophy of "Don't ever say no off the cuff. Consider, assign difficulty, and let them try it." I call that Gary's Rule.
This video really got my creative juices flowing. Excellent Job! 🧙♂️
Awesome!
Just got off work. New Bandit's Keep video? Hell yeah!
🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
All those Classic Dungeons all had the express staircase to the lower levels. It was always implied to be suicide to do it.
For sure
Another great video. I have a "watch again" folder I save some of my favorite videos to, so I can watch them again later of course. Almost all of the Bandit's Keep videos get saved there.
Thanks ☺️
VERY INSPIRATIONAL!!! Some things to really think about. I especially loved "the underworld" comments.
For sure, I read this several times and had to share
A lot of people I play with hate to map. They have created spells to map for them, sacrificing spell slots for ease of play. Changing it on them like that would get a lot of them to quit.
Repopulation is another thing altogether. A collapsed passage or new lock on a door is an understandable change that will not make them rage quit.
Smart use of resources (spells that map) I can’t say I have ever or would ever play with someone who would “rage quit” though
Daniel - I love bizarre and alien dungeon environments. I’ve got a step pyramid / temple dungeon with a greater mummy, crawling with other-worldly baddies thanks to a portal to another dimension, magical traps, a teleportation platform to move between levels, and lost treasures that rival that of the wealthiest kings and sultans.
I’m a huge fan of old school and really appreciate your treatment and reviews.
That sounds amazing! Thanks!
Gygax seemed to be obsessed with slanting passages, to the point where that was on of the major abilities of dwarfs in ODnD. I don't know why, but he got a kick out of tricking players into going deeper into the dungeon, sooner than they were able to deal with the challenges within.
It’s also useful for the reverse: players think they are going lower with a set of stairs, but really they are staying on the same level.
True
Gotta new the players on their toes - we always carried bags of marbles
I'm a new DM and I ran a dungeon crawl classic session for my groups. It was a lot of fun throwing random encounters at them that were not all "in theme". It kept my players engagement high and my own interest watching them getting across the glass bridge (squid games). Lol.
Nice!
The QB and DC videos you mentioned are awesome and very similar to how I run my current game. But thank you very much for this video on the "original dungeon". I have a module that is very old school in feel, but the "plot" isn't right for my game, so I've been thinking about how to incorporate it into the setting. Making it a crazy dungeon in this manner gives it a place! I completely agree with "know your players." We know the "3 pillars of exploration, social, and combat." I also have "3 keys of successful gaming." 1 know your table/players, 2 know the system (different games/editions have different feels and may be more suited to a style of play and how a house rule may have unintentional side effects) 3 know the setting/purpose (so everyone understands the premise: old school feel, mythological heroics, grimdark, etc.) Another great video!
Thanks!
Another good video. I cut my gaming teeth on a home-brewed game of Original D&D many years ago. D&D has undergone some fundamental changes since then. 5e isn't anywhere near the same game and can't be played the same way. I'm not saying one is superior to the other, but each is different even if they share the same name. In my opinion, 5e is geared around short bursts, low-attention span sessions. OD&D was for a sustained game over many years amongst friends. The megadungeon provided this as your beloved characters grew into mythic heroes.
It seems the adventure paths are meant to be played out in about 6 months from my understanding- and to go from low to heroic levels, so you may have something here.
Another great video, I wanna make a creepy dungeon
Thanks! Let me know how it turns out
Although I understand the logic of it, I have never really liked the “need for ecology” argument for dungeon creation. I have heard this leveled against, for example, B2 The Keep on the Borderlands (the Caves of Chaos dungeon part) and it takes the form of things like, “what do these monsters eat?” and other things where the reality of the laws of the surface world are applied equally to the subterranean dungeon world. The need to make the dungeon abide by the same ecological laws of the surface environment while seeming very logical, misses the point of “dungeons” to me. They are strange, scary places to surface dwellers in part because they violate the laws of physics and ecology present on the surface. By making the dungeon simply an underground version of the surface world, there is a lost opportunity for excitement and amazement IMHO. So thanks for this video!
Exactly!
For the record, my impression of reading B2 was that the monsters often left the dungeon to get food.
Likewise, from reading the basic manual, my impression was that wandering monsters in a dungeon might be creatures that had wandered into the dungeon to find food
Some of Gary's dungeon design was actually quite amusing, like the giant bowling alley. I'm not sure I can really imitate his style though. He was unique.
Indeed, but we all are unique :)
@@BanditsKeep I really think the thing that makes Gary's dungeons different is they are designed to test the players themselves just as much as their characters. Like Tomb of Horrors, almost impossible to get in the durn thing at all unless you are knowledgeable in the play style.
Making the changing nature of the dungeon the theme of the dungeon. Spread legends and lore about the cult of wild magic using sorcerers, the secret temple to the goddess of chaos, and/or the magical rift to the demi-plane of creation… Have the randomness “leaking” into the world above, with farmer’s fields of wheat suddenly turning into fields of wildflowers, the king’s crown suddenly replaced by a halibut, cows giving birth to two-headed calves, and that sort of thing. Make that the inciting incident that puts the heroes into the dungeon.
That sounds great!
There is no mad wizard. The dungeon is alive.
Yes!
Embrace the Mystery! I am happy to see that the OSR movement is finding some of the "old-school" elements that haven't been discussed very much.
For sure 😊
Good stuff to think about. So, more dungeon or wilderness design planned? More Mega-dungeon stuff? Look forward to each vid. Thanks!
I will eventually finish all 10 adventure ideas from BX for sure!
I've been toying with some ideas for dungeons that don't seem to be quite part of the normal world, and this sparked some new ideas. Thanks!
Awesome!
One thing that captured my imagination with the Mythic underworld is that it doesn't have to be spacial congruent with the "real world"
As such I have been wanting to make a map for hex crawls and there being "modern" or regular grounded in the world dungeons and ruins but at the lowest levels they could connect to various parts of the Mythic Underworld Dungeon which exists outside of time and space so the various entrances could be hundreds of miles apart.
You have just done down far enough to reach a different reality that is beyond time and space and can include the past or future and fantastical were one might even find dead former PCs or give the PCs the opportunity to relive or experience history events. That might even be the reason they seek the underworld to experience a history event to unlock a clue or information they need for the present
I like that - an interesting if not dangerous way - to travel
@@BanditsKeep and what will the blind seer found in the underworld themselves ask for to give directions to the right exit the PCs seek?
Great tag and thumbnail!!!
Thanks
Great video as always. Love it
Thank You!
Great content as always, Daniel.
Thanks 🙏🏻
I want some Hyperbprea shirts.
They may still have some, check out Northwind Adventures
I thought about about an idea for my own world, to have these more nonsensical mysterious dungeons while still having the more regular stuff.
Essentially, a long long time ago massive metallic pyramids appeared for seemingly no reason. When they appeared, some humanoids and monsters alike disappeared, now theorized to have been drawn into the pyramids to become their denizens.
There are no apparent physical entrances, however there are symbols all over the pyramid that when touch, will transport that creature inside the pyramid. Once there traditional teleportation doesn't work to get out of the dungeon (although it can work between levels one has discovered).
There are four pyramid types, each with five levels (copper, silver, gold, platinum). It should be noted that while made to atleast appear like precious metals, the pyramids are seemingly instructable.
A person cannot leave until they make it to the final level of that pyramid. Once completed, that person may never again do a pyramid of that type again.
It is theorized that the pyramids are massive training grounds. For what reason, is still a mystery. All that is truly known is that great power and wealth await those who successfully venture into them.
Sounds cool
nice video :)
Thank You!
Could we have both? A break down of the sample dungeon then taking what we learned there create a new dungeon? I think that would be cool, like a 2 part show with a to be continued in the middle
That’s a good idea!
Great video, great personality, great voice.
I'm subbed
Thank You!
I always use Gurps when designing the world I campaign, and there are a lot of aspects which apply in building dungeons. I seriously think Gygax had it on point in the original version of D&D. Later edtions after he left lost a great deal of character.
Indeed
I like how fun house dungeons bring the focus back to exciting/good gameplay. But I have to say on the whole I tend to prefer dungeons that make (more) sense (or perhaps "toned down/limited" mythical underworld dungeons).
Sure, many types of dungeons can be super fun
My players always knew that (they're DM's actual career was mechanical engineer) & they knew that my dungeons would be challenging but would also make sense. They knew their DM wouldn't just place random stuff just to be placing it & if it was random their had to be a reason for the randomness & then they would try to figure put why it was random! 😉👍.
Even tho some got "the rubber axe" I would explain to them... "because Westgate has a lot of organized crime that's the reason why the city guard are equipped with metalized nets for snaring evil-doers with sharp swords.
Nice
The old way: Nobody starts out as a hero. Lots of Characters will die. It is fun to find out who survives.
True, this is often the case!
Yes...make the dungeon...
As you wish
So you gave me an idea.
Sorry if it's clanky -- near the middle of the text i realized that it's not really suitable for an UA-cam comment, but alas.
I had one "dungeon" in mind that was literally four rooms with goblins (as first-time DM for some first-time players). Moreover one of the rooms is just a corridor with a simple one-time trap and other room is a secret cript (loot&sacrophages) that needs a puzzle to be solved to open it. Basically "A Tomb" by M. Collville.
Prepped it to test my narrating skills -- but i started to think it could be considered bland and maybe even irritate some players as a waste of time if they leave without opening a secret door.
So now the Tomb has shard of a stone tablet in front of an entrance reading "... shall not leave".
If spared, goblin shaman will tell you meaning of a tablet before it was smashed was: "Those who kill another on a sacred ground shall not leave". The rule (let's say it's an enchantment) works if the grounds were not desecrated by goblins sacrificing an innocent villager to their god -- when any living creature is killed inside the "dungeon".
If Tomb is affected by this enchantment then players, exiting from the furthest non-secret room will not be able to pass through the corridor where a trap was.
Players are granted passage if a riddle is solved and secret room is discovered.
If they fail to discern the answer to the riddle, and exceed some time limit then secret room is opened from within and undead attack. After defeating the undead an enchantment is lifted and passage is clear once again.
Is it too forcefull, or for a first duneon ever this kind of linearity is fine?
My only thought is that the “hint” at the beginning is not a clue at all and this could feel a bit like a railroad to the players during the time they are trapped - the fact that you have an alternate option (undead open the way) if the PCs fail to solve the puzzle is good though. I’d likely have the first goblin they encounter tell them that if they kill him they can never leave - is it a trick? Who knows…
@@BanditsKeep thanks for a response! You're right -- showing to a PC that even an "a monster" can initiate conversation might go a long way.
Sorry: i made it too vague, but a puzzle to open a secret door is a worded riddle etched into the knight's statue. And first room of this sequence contains a mural with principles of this knights' Order hinting at the solution.
But wait, there's more :D
Leaving rooms as is makes murals with a hint unaccessible after enchantment goes up. And now i wonder if i should make any changes to rooms' arrangement, or it would be more fun to make it like real-life intellegence check: "Will the heroes remember, that they saw answer for a riddle after a combat will have passed?.."
The expectation at that time was that the dungeon was like a soap opera or serial: it was never meant to end, and it got weirder the longer it went on, just to keep things interesting. The publication of modules that were written for tournament play led to the dungeon as more of a gauntlet with a prize at the end for those who successfully completed it. Then came story adventures with a sequence of scenes or mini environments to explore and a big bad guy who needed to be defeated. A popular type of dungeon now is more akin to a video-game level: Pretty short, with a start and a finish, a few tricks and choices along the way, and a mini-boss at the end. Just an observation, not a judgment. All of them can be fun.
For sure, mix and match styles for even more fun!
Did you see Hexed Press? Todd got story cards :). The ABC's of TV Script Writing and the 23 Actions are really good tools for Adventure Writing.
Oh? I must have missed that - I’ll check it out
We're going back to D&D after ages with OSE/BX. But to be honest me and my players need to keep the weirdness in check somehow, or we coudn't make it through the "uncunny valley". Make sense to the weird is important too I guess :_) So I really need to embrace the "Mythic Underground" concept. I think I'm going to make "Mythic Underground" itself an element of the world to discover for my players. Like something that has a real explanation. Something similar to finding the true nature of the Maelstrom in Apocalypse World if you're familar. Do you think it's cool? Any suggestions?
Sounds like that could be a fun exploration
There are dungeons, caves, lairs, ruins, extra dimensional portals, encampments and random monsters. Oh my. 😉
For sure!
Doin the lords work! Live long and prosper
Thanks 🙏🏻
I can’t remember, which version of ODnD do you like to play? I wanted to pick one up. I already have OSE (old school essentials) but I’d like to have some form of the original.
@@TheArcturusProject I have the PDFS from drivethrurpg
Sort of like the dungeon in the red box of the eighties that you played through as a solo player?
Did they ever go back to expand on that?
That’s a good question, I’m not sure - but I imagine some fans must have
well I'm old school enough to have had to order it from the back of the hobby magazine in 1974. I've never referred to anything as a dungeon other than an actual dungeon. everything else I consider to be an encounter area. you can have the deadly swamps or the evil spiderfield forest or whatever but those are encounter areas not dungeons. the whole definition of a dungeon is that it's underground isn't it?
IMO yes -at least in an “underworld”
Good Video.
Thank You!
To me a Gygax dungeon meant your PC needed to be equipped and prepared for anything.
I always hear people complain when a 1st level module would throw a ghoul against the PC when they had no access to a magic weapon. Well there was a reason silver daggers and silver tipped arrows were in the equipment lists.
Wolfsbane, garlic, mirrors, iron spikes, 10 foot poles.... Be prepared or die.
Indeed - though no silver daggers in Original D&D - which made the simple fighter very useful
the dungeon is only as good as the DM, thus do what gary did
I’d say “as good as the table” IMO a great group of players is essential to a great campaign.
Nice!
Thanks
Do you think these principles of changing dungeons around as the pc's leave and come back is possible or worth while if your players dont map dungeons? That was just never a principle that was developed among my play group.
I think they can if you describe / explain the change “ you head north toward the stairway to level 2 and find a room with 3 rotting goblin bodies… you notice 3 of the ranger’s arrows in one of them…” if they are paying attention or taking notes they will remember they killed those goblins 3 days ago in some rooms to the south, not the north.
I tend to prefer the dungeons with gygaxian naturalism, that work as habitation for different creatures and factions. I only like Mythic Underworld perspective (with the everchanging corridors, unexplainable features, etc) under certain circumstances, like a dungeon that has a portal to a plane of chaos and is affected by the very force of raw creation or stuff like that.
Sure, those types of dungeons are also fun! They could even exists within (or maybe above) the mythic
I highly suggest checking out the essays from Hack and Slash, and his infrequent zine, Megadungeon. He covers very similar ideas from the same source. He focus on high weirdness D&D and it is very fun and refreshing.
Very cool, I’ll check it out
@@BanditsKeep I love the mythic underworld style games, especially for your mysterious dungeons from days of yore. There is room for both kinds in a campaign. I use mythic/mega dungeons as artifacts from a time when the world was less structured and more Chaotic. When Law was less strong. As you descend they make less and less "sense" except mythically.
Mythic dungeons are also full of treasure, much more than any plot dungeon would be, so when PCs have goals that need money (all of them) they delve deep to get it, then they come out and raise armies, or fight tyrants. It can also allow for the gaining of magic items they want or information that would otherwise be unavailable.. It allows me to step out of the structured story, if they want to risk for reward.
Semi OT, in my games Elves represent an elevated type of human from a prior age. They reincarnate with some of that old magic (thus elf magics) and all kinds of minor superiorities, but they advance slowly because they are not of this world. Also they have little memories of their prior lives (unless it is good for the game). Each is on a quest for their own perfection and when they reach as far as they can get as mortals (say around 12th level) they ascend to another plane.
Old insane elves that refuse to ascend are the cause of much chaos and not a little a few funhouse dungeons.
As I now do as much solo gaming as running for a group (well running for my stepson, as I am semi retired from hunting for players), I am working for some auto generation rules for mythic dungeons, and finally getting to explore them they way I have always wanted. After 30 years of DMing, and so many projects left abandoned by players (the cruelty!) I am actually really good at solo gaming and enjoying it a lot. Mega dungeons of the Gygax style fit in very well for me.
Oh, still love your videos. I love all kinds of games but your style is like coming home for me. (if my home were full of medusa, giant ants, orcs, etc)
RE: Mythic Dungeons and treasure
I love treasure for XP, but if you want to tie it into a setting reality, the fact that it comes out of this mythic place could explain the characters leveling. Delving into the depths has changed them. They are now a bit mythic themselves. Which is why their peers are now monsters and dragons rather than ordinary men... just a thought.
Hmm.. Seems like DCC got its inspiration from OD&D.
I would say that is true!
Honestly, I think that style of play is better as video game, like the Diablo series. Since I don't see how I get entertainment out of it was the DM, which is why I prefer games with more narrative elements, but I guess there are people who enjoy running that kind o game for some reason. And for that reason I occasionally play with the thought of designing an OSR game that brings back that Diablo, Castlevania, rogue-like dungeon delving style of playing by hyper focusing on those aspects and take the things that have emerged in video games over the years to the TTRPG hobby. But my heart is not really in it, as much as I love designing TTRPGs (even though I am not yet done with my first game), I feel like this should be probably be done by someone who actually wants to run that kind of game. Anyway, I am rambling now...
Why would this not include narrative elements? Pre determined plot? No? Story created by the PCs during exploration? Most certainly!
@@BanditsKeep I didn't said pre-determined plot, I am not interested in that either. But this is too much world simulation for my taste, too little thematic play, not enough emphasis on wants and needs of the characters. Character's remain shallow since all display of any personality is just vain, it lacks the depth and meaning narrative tools can provide. But sure, some kind of story will emerge in that style too, but it is not the kind of story I would prefer, that is a little more personal and thus leaves me as player with some kind of catharsis.
Indeed. I get annoyed when people claim a “dungeon” is basically any 5-foot-square map. But i also always disliked giant, nonsensical dungeons.
I enjoy both l logical a mythical myself
Why don't you talk about the Arnesonian dungeon?
Like from “Adventures in Fantasy”?
@@BanditsKeep As in how Arneson approached dungeon design as seen in Blackmoor, Temple of the Frog, and other sources. He was a lot more "fast and loose" with concepts, such as enjoying a good blend of science fiction in his fantasy.
@@Arcboltkonrad13 Blackmoor is interesting and massive. The sample dungeon in “Adventures in Fantasy” is much more down to earth though. You’ve definitely caught my interest here… I may seek out “the first fantasy campaign” as well since it seems to be based on parts of Blackmoor as well.
Important to remember, when Gygax and his contemporaries were writing this stuff, it was all pretty new and they didn't have 30 years of development to build on. I think Gygax was really much more intrigued by the labyrinth of tricks, traps, and monsters as a game rather than a realistic world setting. It really wasn't until Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms came along that a realistic fantasy world was more of a consideration and the game matured. Even Greyhawk felt more like just a fairly shallow world designed to house dungeons.
The world is only as deep or shallow as the DM and group make it.
Yeah dude. A dungeon is exactley what you say; a dungeon.
🙌🏻🙌🏻
I would play in a Dungeon like this but only if there is an explanation (no matter how week it is).
“It’s magic” 😊 🤷🏻♂️ seriously though, if it’s not for you that’s cool, not every type of play fits every player
@@BanditsKeep yes 😁 but what kind of magic. A cunning mage of the last age? Or a dead dragons magic? Or a broken magical sphere? Or a mighty level 12 wish spell from a long lost spellbook written on the skin of a god? 😅
@@Frederic_S those are all amazing!
I feel like I'm being too much of an egghead when I say it, but the underworld is weird and nonsensical. Rolling a ball uphill eternally? Futility as an expression of eternal torment is going to conflict with purpose and attaching meaning to this is absurdity.
It's not like the other encounter and places, it's "the dungeon" (underworld).
Pretty much a different language than 5 room Mr. Potter.
Indeed
I don't like the concept of the dungeon in general. Its just too weird and illogical. I think it is possible to make it logical by incorporating it into the concept of the world itself. So for example perhaps there was a cataclysm in the ancient world where society had to move underground and built a huge underworld. The game would start thousands of years later where the players come from the world above and start exploring the ancient underworld..
That’s basically the premise of both Greyhawk and Blackmoor 😊
I agree with Gary, but less so Daniel's interpretation of the text. I like to have a solid logic to my dungeons, and I tick all of the things you set out. 30% combat doesn’t mean 70% empty either.
I would love to talk to you more about the subject as I feel Gygax didn’t make the most optimal user interface for dungeon design and improvements can and have been made over the years.
That’s cool, you don’t have to agree with me, that’s what makes this game so cool! But only 1/3 of the rooms with monsters is what is written, not my idea or interpretation 🤷🏻♂️
@@BanditsKeep Yeah I agree! Thats my point. I think the idea of calling a non-combat encounter room "Empty" is missleading because there are so many other things that could and should be in the other 70% of the dungeon. So i agree with what is written but you said the rest would be empty. I assume you meant empty of monsters not 4 bare walls and a well swept floor, but that isnt actually clear. I think very room should have 1-3 encounters in and only 3 in 10 rooms in a dungeon should be combat encounters.
Reoccuring interactive features, puzzles, traps, hazards, skill challenges, social encounters, secrets/environmental story telling and treasure can all be mounted up for a richdungeon location. I use a statblock for my rooms.
@@granttrain3553 sounds interesting - I prefer not to “over fill” my dungeons - and that is what the text suggests as well .. stat blocks for every room… not my style, but cool if it works for you!