Hope y'all are ready for ANOTHER DEEP DIVE into the final two songs of the Wisdom Saga! Early access to all my EPIC-related content is available on Patreon :}
I heard that Luke Holt recorded the reprise of Thunder Bringer immediately after he woke up one morning to get that first-thing-in-the-morning rasp, because he wasn't satisfied with the amount of growl he could normally get.
One motif I caught not many mention is Hephaestus’s “Trust is not given it’s forged!” is in the same motif as Scylla’s “drown in your sorrows and fears!” Which is fitting given it is the primary moment of Odysseus breaking his crew’s trust by basically allowing the deaths of those targeted by the torches
In fact there are three triggers at the end that bring back his memories: 1. Calypso calling him Ody (Eurycholus called him so) 2. The "I'll stay inside your heart" from his mom and 3. Polites Open Arms motiv
It's hilarious seeing you say you're 'caught up' when two more sagas are out since you filmed this. but that's the downside of youtube instead of patreon i guess. Love your reactions.
Athena and Ares are both war deities - Ares is the bloodlust and rage side of war while Athena is strategy and wisdom. But I really like Ares's voice when you think about some of the other sides of him - he is known to have never forced a woman and even to have punished men who did force women. So I just imagine him being a sweetheart deep down.
38:25 if I'm not mistaken, it starts as Warrior of the Mind but ends as Legendary. This makes me cry everytime, in my head is not just about Ody anymore, it's about Thelemacus too 🥲
absolutely love in the animatic that when those first few notes of Legendary play the image of Odysseus shifts into Telemachus. Really well done on their part to pair those visuals with the motif
16:27 I don’t think he’s quite “remembering”. I’m pretty sure that he’s always remembered, and he’s trapped on the island with all of that trauma. I think the song just shows the night it was too much for him
And all those memories like Polites voice being quieter, because he's been dead so long that the memory of Polites voice is fading away. His mums is still kinda strong because he's known her voice, as-is, for so long.
Obviously many others have answered your question but Odysseus isn't re-remembering these memories, he's was having a PTSD episode about everything that has happened and his choices due to Calpsos' triggering him with lines that tie to Eurylochus, Polites, and his mother. Athena is going through Odysseus' memories to basically "catch up" with what's been happening, ending with Odysseus' lowest moment (the one in the song). I believe she probably could have done this sooner, but since their friendship broke up, she hasn't been keeping as close a watch over Odysseus as she would have been. Thus when he washed on the shore, she didn't know where he was and didn't immediately check. In "We'll be fine" it inspired her to help out and play a more active role to help find and free Odysseus.
Neal Illustrator, AnniFlamma, VirusAP, and gigi. If one of them drops an Animatic, I watch. I'm not going to say which one is my favorite, because they all have different strengths, but they're the champions of the field.
Athena is Zeus's favorite since she's the last smart thing to come out of Zeus' head, and Ares HATES her for that. The fact they're both war gods makes that even worse from Ares' perspective.
Also to expand on the relationship between Ares and Athena, it would probably be more accurate to describe an Ares as the god of carnage and Athena as the god of strategy. A soldier on the front lines might be more likely to pray to Ares while a general may be more likely to pray to Athena, although both would often be invoked. Put another way, Athena would be delighted at a bloodless surrender achieved through superior tactics and maneuvering. Ares would be *pissed*.
To add to that Ares is Heir Apparent and daddy essentially ignores him, but his baby girl? He gave her his shield (sometimes mirror) because he wanted her to be safe.
16:25 The moment you are asking about is basically a perfect representation of a PTSD trigger. Some people with PTSD could have a certain word or phrase that will cause trauma to resurface and in turn create a mental breakdown. The phrase "Open Arms" in this case, was the trigger.
Apollo is probably most famous in modern times for being a god of the sun, but he actually has quite a broad repertoire. He's the god of arts, healing/disease, justice, civilization/colonization, archery/sports/athleticism, and livestock plus about a dozen other domains depending on the time period and particular cult.
Kind of, those are Helios's cattle, who was the Titan of the Sun. Apollo's solar associations are more prominent in Roman mythology than Greek, Artemis gained Lunar associations at the same time but neither were prevalent in Hellenistic myth.
Yeah Apollo was never rly a god of the sun originally and even now he's more a god of light than anything. His primary things were archery, music, and prophecy.
@felixhenson9926 Health and disease were also big parts of his worship. IIRC we have quite a few accounts of people going to temples of Apollo to deal with various diseases.
When Athena says "Hold your tongue now..." it's the same melody as warrior of the mind. "I had a challenge, a test of skill, a magic boar only the best could kill..." It's echoing times when she bonded with Odysseus as she's talking about her newer bond with Telemachus.
16:27 so he always remembered them. In the actual Odyssey, Odysseus sits on the shore everyday, bored and sad as he longs for Penelope and Telemachus. In EPIC, Jay seems to enforce the sadness and make him depressed, essentially having a breakdown. As many others have commented, Calypso says triggers that remind him of everyone he’s lost which breaks him completely and makes him desperate.
16:21 the way i understand it her spell has physicaly traped him there, but mentaly it has change nothing, or atleast little. so he has festerd in the guilt for 7yrs, and not even been able to get home, which is why he did it. i think this is the point he gives up hope that he will get home, and so then guilt is crushing him, cous all that ended up being for nothing.
Odysseus has been fighting these feelings for years and mentions he can’t sleep well since the “Just A Man” moment. Now that he is trapped by a deity and feeling helpless, it wouldn’t be surprising for those motifs to come back.
Its not that Odysseus is just remembering his former comrades but he is haunted by them because he has no control over what is happening to him with Calypso and she has kept him on her island for 7 years and he is on the brink of committing suicide (which is what is implied in the song and illustrations from different animators) showing Odysseus at the edge of a cliff and calypso trying to bring him back to the illusion of paradise but its a farce.
Fun fact about Athena and Ares: In the Trojan war, they take different sides and Athena wounds Ares. Ares is helping out Troy and goes to a soldier to give him aid, and Athena is helping the Greeks, giving her power to Diomedes. When the two soldiers go to fight each other, she parries Ares' attack and drives Diomedes' spear into Ares' stomach. Ares then flees up to Zeus and asks him for help like a little kid complaining to their parent, and Zeus says that Ares was so pathetic that he would have him thrown off Olympus if he wasn't his son. In The Horse and the Infant from the first saga, you can hear in the lyrics "Diomedes will lead the charge" and its that guy that does it.
To answer your question, in the story Odysseus is on the island for 7 years. Each night they make love under her spell. Every day he spends sitting on a rock looking out to sea. These memories didn't just come suddenly, they haunt him ever day for 7 years.
That's certainly how it goes in the original. Definitely not in Epic tho. He was there for 7 years, those memories were triggered by something Calypso said, and we know for certain they never slept together even once.
@@felixhenson9926 I don't think it's 'for certain' to be fair. It's certainly implied in a cut song and it's my headcanon. I prefer my fiction to be kinder. But I can see why people are so attached to the opposite - Calypso brings up a lot of bad experiences people have had and I can see why people would look at her and think 'there's no way this person has _any_ respect for boundaries whatsoever'. Cut content isn't canon, even if the creator says otherwise. I think it's up to interpretation. I like the interpretation that Calypso realises pretty quickly that Odysseus is going to respond not at all to force, and because she actually wants companionship, she learns that if she keeps her distance he's more likely to tell her stories and open up to her. That the tragedy if she wasn't such an arsehole, they could have been friends, and Ody is genuinely fond of her in a slightly pitying way insomuch as you can pity someone who treats you awfully.
One of my favorite things about Mumder's "God Games" animatic is the fact that Athena's helmet crest and her skirt both look like piano keys as a nod to her instrumental motif. Chef's kiss~
In Jays version, Odyessus has stayed faithful even being trapped. He's never forgot anyone and he's finally hit a point where he just wants things to end. The memories are becoming to much because he truly thinks he will never get off the island because he has no idea if he will ever get home. Jay had Athena step in for God Games to represent the intervention to get Odyessus released. Greek history wise, Calypso did keep him trapped for 7 years and he refused to become her immortal lover no matter what she did. Ultimately Zeus sends Hermes and he is released off her island.
Honesty for the next sagas I would just watch the livestream because they are end game of animatics and you can see Jorge's vision for a live musical in them. Anyways, excited for your journey (journesy)
@PeterBarber just the ithaca saga portion for the Ithaca saga videos, I'd definately watch the entire stream later though in portions, since it is over 2 hours
You could watch the Livestream for the vengeance and Ithaca sagas. Majority of the reasons is the last song of it is Jorge's breathtakingly stupifying vision of the events that take place. And you would be less confused about the context or what he's trying to portray for the audience. Just my sincere suggestion for you ☺️
@@PeterBarberI disagree heavily. The livestream still has chunks without animatic to watch. I’d say just link up with Mortius and finish up the musical watching the animatics he recommends you! LIVING for your analysis videos btw :)
Yeah, Athena is using her theme from Warrior of the Mind when she argues back against Ares and Aphrodite- it shows how she's arguing sincerely and from the heart. All the other Gods, she echoes their melodies and rhythms, showing how she's speaking their language and appealing to them.
The reason Ody relives Polites' Open Arms is because Calypso accidentally triggered those memories by saying "stay in my open arms". Also going into the last 2 sagas, you might want to be aware of the content warnings for certain songs beforehand.
he's breaking. He feels so hopeless and tired and unlike his message to the infant where he tells him to close his eyes to spare himself the view he wants to also spare himself the view of being denied the ability to return home to penelope
it's less about just now remembering and more about finally after 7 long years reaching his breaking point where he can't take living with all of that baggage anymore, especially knowing he's done all of that for nothing, since the reason he did a good chunk of what haunts him is to simply just get home already and he's not home, not with his wife, not with his crew, his friends, and he's not even dead and probably will be forced to live out forever here. living with something weighing on you for 7 years can push you to the edge of a cliff, I'm sure I'm not the only one relating to Ody in that part of the story
It's less that he is 'remembering' and more that the things that have happened to him are catching up to him. Through all the things that has happened to him, his solace was that there *wasn't* any time to think about it deeply, to feel the things he's lost. Now, 7 years he's had to stay on an island that not his home with a goddess who chooses her happiness over his own and uses him to cure her loneliness. He was literally on the edge of his sanity because all his men died, he sacrificed them to get home, and in that moment, all of it was for nothing.
So Calypso’s powers don’t make Odysseus forget, they basically roofie him and prevent him from leaving. Jorge kept it a little ambiguous in Epic, but Odysseus is SA’d by Calypso for those 7 years, and he’s extremely suicidal. In the Odyssey, it’s very explicitly stated that Odysseus is assaulted during the nights, and during the day he either cries on the beach or stands at the edge of the cliff that drops into the ocean. Throughout all this, Odysseus never forgets what happened, he just can not fight back or leave because of Calypso’s powers. Odysseus is not there by choice, he’s a prisoner who is being sexually abused by his captor. In this scene I don’t think it’s Odysseus regaining his memories, it’s him being triggered by Calypso while he was already breaking down, and having a PTSD episode. He’s wants to jump so he can die and be free, but can’t because of Calypso’s powers keeping him from leaving the island. Calypso won’t even let death take Odysseus, and this scene is her using her powers, which are actually connected to her musical abilities, to prevent him from jumping.
Now that I just spent my ENTIRE day watching all of these, lol. I love the analysis you bring to these songs, and the music theory behind them is really interesting, even to someone who had literally no background in music. I can't wait to see your reaction/analysis to the last two sagas. Jay goes HARD in the Vengence Saga.
Athena's verse against Ares does carry a melody that was used in Warrior of The Mind: "I had a challenge, a test of skill! A magic boar only the best could kill!" Edit just to something else: You were right on the nose on the disco feel during Hera's section. It's played like a dance off in the canon animatics
Fun fact about Ody's physique (though skip if you don't know the story): So, with the whole string his bow thing, he must have had a really heavy draw bow for that to become a challenge, right? Well, there are skeletons of medieval archers that suggest basically that body type likely due to the draw weight of period war bows being typically 100+lbs, some even 150+lbs (for reference, the standard "beginner" weights are about 20-30lbs, with modern olympic archers typically 50lbs for men and 35 for women). The muscles used to draw a bow of that weight are mainly in the back and shoulders, and we get the idea based on the evidence of repetavtive strain found on skeletons. If you'd like to know more, look up the Mary Rose (former British warship).
Precisely! This is why I'm always annoyed that fantasy leaves the archer role to women and elves. Sure, we women can be hella strong, and elves, well, they're magical, but they're always portrayed as these petite, lithe characters, while the swordsman is the massive tank. Swords (REAL swords, not mall swords) don't weigh much, and you can swing them around all day without much fatigue, but bows take POWER to shoot. Archers should be portrayed with broad shoulders and hulking muscles... basically, gym bros who skip leg day.
So good! I wanted to hear more analysis of the different sounds and instruments for each god tho, like Apollo’s lyre and the anvil sounds (similar to church bells) for Hephaestus, etc. The music/mixing stuff and instrument breakdown is what I like best about your reaction videos. I’ve listened to these songs hundreds of times, yet you always manage to catch something I’ve never noticed before!
athena and ares aren't exactly enemies, moreso rivals. both being siblings as well as gods of war, they have that sibling rivalry to the extreme. this is played in epic by both having an equal yet opposite quick thought style ability which sadly the chosen animatic didn't show but the canon one did (it showed it by ares breaking into quite literally the quick thought between athena and aphrodite). while athena's qt is designed to stop time to strategies, ares' is designed to just sorta make the affected go into a war rage
Did you guys notice in the animatic for God Games, Athena has a piano design on her helmet plume and the bottom of her dress. The artist really tied her instrument into her design.
On the ledge... Ody is suffering classic ptsd symptoms. He has sacriced everything, and everyone in order to get home to his wife and child, including much of himself when he became the monster. Up until this moment he has been constantly battling other things, simply staying alive and on constant defense. But Calipso makes him stay on an island where all his needs are taken care of. There is no strife, but also no wife and child. And he is powerless. So all of those anxieties and horrors have nothing to drown them out now. Just like a soldier that feels nothing until he is out of the line of fire and suddenly has to face what they have become.
I don't see anyone else commenting about 33:34. Ares and Athena are half siblings. Athena burst forth from Zeus' skull and Ares was born of Hera. They are yin and yang. She represents strategic battle, while Ares represents courageous battle (hence calling Ody a coward). They are often at odds but seldom openly in aggression with each other. They have a healthy sibling rivalry but Athena is one of Zeus' favorite children while he is constantly disappointed in Ares. In the original Odyssey, Athena approaches Zeus and he basically says, "I was wondering when you'd want your toy back. Go ahead." Love this song though.
She isn’t really casting a spell on him, her island is under a spell to be unfindable. The only curse she potentially “casts” is the “temptation of paradise.” So he always had these memories, but like you said, pop a pina colada down and hear that music and you can forget your woes…. but only for so long for someone as troubled as Odysseus.
Iirc Calypso can keep someone there with her magic as well. Leaving the island without her blessing basically guarantees you still cant leave even on a raft in the ocean. Most of the time, like also with Perseus, she doesnt let go for years
@ the Odyssey can be interpreted many ways and different city states would have different background understanding of each deity. Some readings say she is indeed the perpetrator of the curse, but I’m Not Sorry For Loving You, Jorge makes it pretty explicit that she was cast away to that island ie she was cursed/banished.
@ if someone views her tale as an important tale of a man being victimized through SA then that is their right, I view Calypso as a progressive viewpoint of the times since she spoke out against the gods hypocrisy towards what goddesses can do vs what gods can do.
Odysseus on the cliff, seems like he has depression that has just been building over time the longer he remains unable to escape. He avoids Calypso's advances but he can't actually fight her, before he was able to avoid thinking about everything as he moved forward to get home. Now he is stuck with no way out, each day builds on his depression till you get that cliff moment.
I thought Ody was suffering from PTSD and it might have been a bad day. Like, imagine waking up every day thinking you will never leave the island. Remembering everyone you sacrificed for an unattainable goal. It must have broke him down slowly since he thought that he could escape. Theres a cut song of him trying to leave. Years passing and no progress. But there are a lot of theories. Some think he sensed Athena watching him... Which makes sense now that i typed that out, knowing what i know now... Lol. Im so glad you're done with the Wisdom Saga. I LOVE GodGames. Idk the bells in Hephaestus's forge and the ones in The Underworld tickle my brain. So Psyched for Vengeance!
I really appreciate your analysis of the vocal technice of the singers, it feels like you help unlock another level of appreciation for the work done by the singers 😊
Athena and Ares were the war gods and patrons of two kind of opposed greek nations. Athena is generally portrayed as a tactical fighter (hence all the warrior of the mind stuff) whereas ares is generally portrayed as being much more about brute strength and overwhelming martial power. Also couple of details about the lore of Epic specifically - Jorge imagined that both Athena and Ares possess versions of the same power, calling Athena's Quick-Thought and Ares's Dark Quick-Thought. The difference, as he describes it, is that Dark Quick-Thought also enrages and evokes strong emotion in whoever it is used on. Also - Ares's instrument is an erhu, a Chinese two-stringed fiddle, and you can hear it take over Athena's melody when Ares uses Dark Quick-Thought on her (and back again as Athena uses her own Quick-Thought in return)! It's apparently reference to Sun Tzu's The Art of War
Aries and Athena are both essentially gods of war. Aries is the god of war. Athena is the goddess of warfare, wisdom, strategy and what not. They are also half siblings, sharing Zeus as their father 👍
Fun fact, Apollo in this period was the god of music (hence his argument about the sirens). Helios was the god of the sun first. Also, Ares and Athena have a sibling rivalry because one is a strategist and the other one uses more brute force.
I am convinced the animatic artist for 'Love in Paradise' learned from Attack on Titan. Something about the eyes and hair. I think my favourite thing about the song is how uh, _vague_ it is in terms of how far Calypso takes things. I prefer to think that she knew to back off at _some_ point, just because I hope Ody had a little peace and quiet out of seven years. Which is absolutely not the case in the Odyssey apparently. But it certainly could go either way. Animatic artists go the whole spectrum.
After rewatching, I am actually suprised you didn't recognize Ares' motif is the same as Athena's, just in his instrument. They're half-siblings who are both associated with war with very different ideals; which is why they clash so often. Ares looks to the bloodshed, chaos, and ultimately honor of face to face all out battle. While Athena focuses on wisdom and strategy.
16:27 I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't think he's "suddenly" remembering anything, but that we're getting a glimpse into day-to-day life on Calypso's island. To this point, Odysseus has been constantly on the move, constantly working towards his goal to get back to his family; however, trapped as he is on Calypso's island with nowhere to run, he's had nothing to do but sit with everything that's happened to him and what he's done to this point- things he did that at this point and time seem to have been for nothing- and wallow. Also note: No Longer You - "I see you on the brink of death" Love In Paradise - Odysseus LITERALLY standing on the brink.
As always, love your commentary and analysis. And so glad I'm not the only one who gets distracted by a well-built man xD BrittPowwPixel does some REALLY good art :D
4:43 Actually, I'm pretty sure they actually had to re-record at least some of them, like Ruthlessness, Different Beast and Scylla; because the rythm of their singing is different than the original songs, and it's not because the song is faster, but because there are pauses and timings between syllables in some words that are missing in the new version Idk it might hear ir wrong, though 🤷🏻♀️
😢 now I gotta wait for the rest. I went to your patreon and you haven’t done the next 2 sagas. I look forward to them dropping. I love your breakdown and analysis. Plus these last 2 sagas hit so hard. Again can’t wait to see your input on the last 2 sagas!!!
It's not that he's remembering just right then, its just that Athena looked at where Odysseus floated to after Thunder Bringer, and then for 7 Years Ody was having PTSD of his Journey and sadly Calypso wasnt making it any better with her pestering, we are just seeing one the most final times at the end of the seven years. We, as the audience, are looking through Athena Hour Glass and seeing one of those highlights
The Odyssey has A LOT of repetition in it as a story because it was an orally recited myth. It's why we almost immediately get call backs even in Saga 2.
Just a wuick correction about the mixing and mastering. The mixing and mastering was actually done by Jorge himself, but under the guidance of JP Warner mixed the original Troy and Cyclops sagas. So Jorge does the mixing but gets feedback from JP warner sbout it
They did re-record parts for the flashback. At least for Odysseus and Scylla because you can hear the difference if you listen to the actual songs. I don't know if they did it for all of them though
odysseus was sort of under a spell. she would sing in order to enchant him iirc but his desire to be with penelope was stronger. he spent every day for those 7 years crying before calypso would force him to bed.
Athena and Ares theme is quite similar probably you notice the theme Ares entrance just same theme warior of the mind just bit disoriented. It's like his power quick thought similar like athena. When Athena quick thought more calm one person mind, ares quick thought is more destructive and more anger. That's why in animation Athena seems hurt cus she did quick thought to approdite but ares interrupt her with his quick thought
May I recommend Hold Them Down and Odyssyus?? These two are, I think, 2 songs before the final last 2 songs of the last saga. And I personally adore these two
Hope y'all are ready for ANOTHER DEEP DIVE into the final two songs of the Wisdom Saga! Early access to all my EPIC-related content is available on Patreon :}
You need to catch up with the last 2 sagas there the best ones you have to please
the first line in God Games, Athena says "Fa-ther, God King" and it's exactly the same notes for "Thun-der, Bring-er"
Jorge is a freaking genius and you are a genius for picking that out! 😂
it's also a variation of the danger motif, isn't it? at least I've always heard it that way but maybe I'm reaching
I heard that Luke Holt recorded the reprise of Thunder Bringer immediately after he woke up one morning to get that first-thing-in-the-morning rasp, because he wasn't satisfied with the amount of growl he could normally get.
The fact that this is a saga where Odysseus has no agency over his life at all, so he doesn't even get a song of his own?
Writing
One motif I caught not many mention is Hephaestus’s “Trust is not given it’s forged!” is in the same motif as Scylla’s “drown in your sorrows and fears!” Which is fitting given it is the primary moment of Odysseus breaking his crew’s trust by basically allowing the deaths of those targeted by the torches
Same melodic line as "breaking the bonds that you've made" from Sylla as well
In fact there are three triggers at the end that bring back his memories:
1. Calypso calling him Ody (Eurycholus called him so)
2. The "I'll stay inside your heart" from his mom
and
3. Polites Open Arms motiv
it always hurts me, poor Odysseus T^T
Calypso would have been set if Peter washed up on shore 🤣 he was sold on the beach alone 😂
Most people would, but Odysseus has people he must get back to.
It's hilarious seeing you say you're 'caught up' when two more sagas are out since you filmed this. but that's the downside of youtube instead of patreon i guess. Love your reactions.
Athena and Ares are both war deities - Ares is the bloodlust and rage side of war while Athena is strategy and wisdom. But I really like Ares's voice when you think about some of the other sides of him - he is known to have never forced a woman and even to have punished men who did force women. So I just imagine him being a sweetheart deep down.
38:25 if I'm not mistaken, it starts as Warrior of the Mind but ends as Legendary. This makes me cry everytime, in my head is not just about Ody anymore, it's about Thelemacus too 🥲
absolutely love in the animatic that when those first few notes of Legendary play the image of Odysseus shifts into Telemachus. Really well done on their part to pair those visuals with the motif
16:27 I don’t think he’s quite “remembering”. I’m pretty sure that he’s always remembered, and he’s trapped on the island with all of that trauma. I think the song just shows the night it was too much for him
The night that he was at his lowest.
And all those memories like Polites voice being quieter, because he's been dead so long that the memory of Polites voice is fading away. His mums is still kinda strong because he's known her voice, as-is, for so long.
21:19 had me CACKLING. just the, "no". mason, never change, please.
We love Mason’s sassiness! 😂❤️😈
Obviously many others have answered your question but Odysseus isn't re-remembering these memories, he's was having a PTSD episode about everything that has happened and his choices due to Calpsos' triggering him with lines that tie to Eurylochus, Polites, and his mother. Athena is going through Odysseus' memories to basically "catch up" with what's been happening, ending with Odysseus' lowest moment (the one in the song). I believe she probably could have done this sooner, but since their friendship broke up, she hasn't been keeping as close a watch over Odysseus as she would have been. Thus when he washed on the shore, she didn't know where he was and didn't immediately check. In "We'll be fine" it inspired her to help out and play a more active role to help find and free Odysseus.
He isn't just now remembering these things, he remembered them every day and cried on the shore for 7 years.
I would honestly recommend to catch up also Neal Illustrator ' s "God games" animatics (and Ruthlessness as well) because it's absolutely top-tier
Neal absolutely nails Zeus on ways that nobody else seems to. But their take on all of the gods is superb.
Neal Illustrator, AnniFlamma, VirusAP, and gigi. If one of them drops an Animatic, I watch. I'm not going to say which one is my favorite, because they all have different strengths, but they're the champions of the field.
@@damsonrheaTotally agree,but I gotta add Duvetbox too.
NealIllustrator is my fav for this song! I think the battle aspect is sick and the ending is beautiful
I was JUST thinking that. Neal illustrator is just, lit
Athena is Zeus's favorite since she's the last smart thing to come out of Zeus' head, and Ares HATES her for that. The fact they're both war gods makes that even worse from Ares' perspective.
Also to expand on the relationship between Ares and Athena, it would probably be more accurate to describe an Ares as the god of carnage and Athena as the god of strategy. A soldier on the front lines might be more likely to pray to Ares while a general may be more likely to pray to Athena, although both would often be invoked.
Put another way, Athena would be delighted at a bloodless surrender achieved through superior tactics and maneuvering. Ares would be *pissed*.
To add to that Ares is Heir Apparent and daddy essentially ignores him, but his baby girl? He gave her his shield (sometimes mirror) because he wanted her to be safe.
The way that the ‘Warrior of the Mind’ motiff leads into just a touch of ‘Legendary’. Beautiful.
16:25 The moment you are asking about is basically a perfect representation of a PTSD trigger. Some people with PTSD could have a certain word or phrase that will cause trauma to resurface and in turn create a mental breakdown. The phrase "Open Arms" in this case, was the trigger.
Apollo is probably most famous in modern times for being a god of the sun, but he actually has quite a broad repertoire. He's the god of arts, healing/disease, justice, civilization/colonization, archery/sports/athleticism, and livestock plus about a dozen other domains depending on the time period and particular cult.
Kind of, those are Helios's cattle, who was the Titan of the Sun. Apollo's solar associations are more prominent in Roman mythology than Greek, Artemis gained Lunar associations at the same time but neither were prevalent in Hellenistic myth.
@Oahizify Derp! You're right. My mistake. I'll edit above
Yeah Apollo was never rly a god of the sun originally and even now he's more a god of light than anything. His primary things were archery, music, and prophecy.
@@Oahizify What they said!
@felixhenson9926
Health and disease were also big parts of his worship. IIRC we have quite a few accounts of people going to temples of Apollo to deal with various diseases.
When Athena says "Hold your tongue now..." it's the same melody as warrior of the mind. "I had a challenge, a test of skill, a magic boar only the best could kill..." It's echoing times when she bonded with Odysseus as she's talking about her newer bond with Telemachus.
16:27 so he always remembered them. In the actual Odyssey, Odysseus sits on the shore everyday, bored and sad as he longs for Penelope and Telemachus. In EPIC, Jay seems to enforce the sadness and make him depressed, essentially having a breakdown. As many others have commented, Calypso says triggers that remind him of everyone he’s lost which breaks him completely and makes him desperate.
16:21 the way i understand it her spell has physicaly traped him there, but mentaly it has change nothing, or atleast little. so he has festerd in the guilt for 7yrs, and not even been able to get home, which is why he did it. i think this is the point he gives up hope that he will get home, and so then guilt is crushing him, cous all that ended up being for nothing.
Odysseus has been fighting these feelings for years and mentions he can’t sleep well since the “Just A Man” moment. Now that he is trapped by a deity and feeling helpless, it wouldn’t be surprising for those motifs to come back.
I love Mason's comments. 😂😂
Its not that Odysseus is just remembering his former comrades but he is haunted by them because he has no control over what is happening to him with Calypso and she has kept him on her island for 7 years and he is on the brink of committing suicide (which is what is implied in the song and illustrations from different animators) showing Odysseus at the edge of a cliff and calypso trying to bring him back to the illusion of paradise but its a farce.
16:25 So in the OG story, Calypso would put Odysseus under her spell at night but during the day he would run and cry on the shores
Fun fact about Athena and Ares: In the Trojan war, they take different sides and Athena wounds Ares. Ares is helping out Troy and goes to a soldier to give him aid, and Athena is helping the Greeks, giving her power to Diomedes. When the two soldiers go to fight each other, she parries Ares' attack and drives Diomedes' spear into Ares' stomach. Ares then flees up to Zeus and asks him for help like a little kid complaining to their parent, and Zeus says that Ares was so pathetic that he would have him thrown off Olympus if he wasn't his son.
In The Horse and the Infant from the first saga, you can hear in the lyrics "Diomedes will lead the charge" and its that guy that does it.
To answer your question, in the story Odysseus is on the island for 7 years. Each night they make love under her spell. Every day he spends sitting on a rock looking out to sea. These memories didn't just come suddenly, they haunt him ever day for 7 years.
that hurts, poor Odysseus 😢
That's certainly how it goes in the original. Definitely not in Epic tho. He was there for 7 years, those memories were triggered by something Calypso said, and we know for certain they never slept together even once.
@@felixhenson9926 I don't think it's 'for certain' to be fair. It's certainly implied in a cut song and it's my headcanon. I prefer my fiction to be kinder. But I can see why people are so attached to the opposite - Calypso brings up a lot of bad experiences people have had and I can see why people would look at her and think 'there's no way this person has _any_ respect for boundaries whatsoever'.
Cut content isn't canon, even if the creator says otherwise. I think it's up to interpretation.
I like the interpretation that Calypso realises pretty quickly that Odysseus is going to respond not at all to force, and because she actually wants companionship, she learns that if she keeps her distance he's more likely to tell her stories and open up to her. That the tragedy if she wasn't such an arsehole, they could have been friends, and Ody is genuinely fond of her in a slightly pitying way insomuch as you can pity someone who treats you awfully.
"Let him go?" More like "Bring him home." Love this saga
One of my favorite things about Mumder's "God Games" animatic is the fact that Athena's helmet crest and her skirt both look like piano keys as a nod to her instrumental motif. Chef's kiss~
In Jays version, Odyessus has stayed faithful even being trapped. He's never forgot anyone and he's finally hit a point where he just wants things to end. The memories are becoming to much because he truly thinks he will never get off the island because he has no idea if he will ever get home.
Jay had Athena step in for God Games to represent the intervention to get Odyessus released.
Greek history wise, Calypso did keep him trapped for 7 years and he refused to become her immortal lover no matter what she did. Ultimately Zeus sends Hermes and he is released off her island.
I love that the Athena in the God Games animatic has a visual piano motif to her helmet and robes too
Right?! The owls on her breast plate and shoulders, also.
Honesty for the next sagas I would just watch the livestream because they are end game of animatics and you can see Jorge's vision for a live musical in them. Anyways, excited for your journey (journesy)
Was just talking with my editor -- do you mean watch the Ithaca saga portion of the livestream, or the entire livestream?
@PeterBarber just the ithaca saga portion for the Ithaca saga videos, I'd definately watch the entire stream later though in portions, since it is over 2 hours
@@PeterBarber be aware of the content warning and be prepared to be emotionally destroyed for the final saga.
You could watch the Livestream for the vengeance and Ithaca sagas. Majority of the reasons is the last song of it is Jorge's breathtakingly stupifying vision of the events that take place. And you would be less confused about the context or what he's trying to portray for the audience. Just my sincere suggestion for you ☺️
@@PeterBarberI disagree heavily. The livestream still has chunks without animatic to watch. I’d say just link up with Mortius and finish up the musical watching the animatics he recommends you! LIVING for your analysis videos btw :)
Yeah, Athena is using her theme from Warrior of the Mind when she argues back against Ares and Aphrodite- it shows how she's arguing sincerely and from the heart. All the other Gods, she echoes their melodies and rhythms, showing how she's speaking their language and appealing to them.
The reason Ody relives Polites' Open Arms is because Calypso accidentally triggered those memories by saying "stay in my open arms". Also going into the last 2 sagas, you might want to be aware of the content warnings for certain songs beforehand.
"Accidentally." We know Odysseus talks in his sleep. He could easily have mentioned the phrase.
"that's a very seductive voice [...] is this Hera?"
Peter saw the sign and kept walking
he's breaking. He feels so hopeless and tired and unlike his message to the infant where he tells him to close his eyes to spare himself the view he wants to also spare himself the view of being denied the ability to return home to penelope
The Teagan simping is real 😂😂😂
Don't worry, there's plenty left for Luke. XD
So valid for it though.
it's less about just now remembering and more about finally after 7 long years reaching his breaking point where he can't take living with all of that baggage anymore, especially knowing he's done all of that for nothing, since the reason he did a good chunk of what haunts him is to simply just get home already
and he's not home, not with his wife, not with his crew, his friends, and he's not even dead and probably will be forced to live out forever here.
living with something weighing on you for 7 years can push you to the edge of a cliff, I'm sure I'm not the only one relating to Ody in that part of the story
It's less that he is 'remembering' and more that the things that have happened to him are catching up to him. Through all the things that has happened to him, his solace was that there *wasn't* any time to think about it deeply, to feel the things he's lost. Now, 7 years he's had to stay on an island that not his home with a goddess who chooses her happiness over his own and uses him to cure her loneliness. He was literally on the edge of his sanity because all his men died, he sacrificed them to get home, and in that moment, all of it was for nothing.
So Calypso’s powers don’t make Odysseus forget, they basically roofie him and prevent him from leaving. Jorge kept it a little ambiguous in Epic, but Odysseus is SA’d by Calypso for those 7 years, and he’s extremely suicidal. In the Odyssey, it’s very explicitly stated that Odysseus is assaulted during the nights, and during the day he either cries on the beach or stands at the edge of the cliff that drops into the ocean. Throughout all this, Odysseus never forgets what happened, he just can not fight back or leave because of Calypso’s powers. Odysseus is not there by choice, he’s a prisoner who is being sexually abused by his captor.
In this scene I don’t think it’s Odysseus regaining his memories, it’s him being triggered by Calypso while he was already breaking down, and having a PTSD episode. He’s wants to jump so he can die and be free, but can’t because of Calypso’s powers keeping him from leaving the island. Calypso won’t even let death take Odysseus, and this scene is her using her powers, which are actually connected to her musical abilities, to prevent him from jumping.
Now that I just spent my ENTIRE day watching all of these, lol. I love the analysis you bring to these songs, and the music theory behind them is really interesting, even to someone who had literally no background in music. I can't wait to see your reaction/analysis to the last two sagas. Jay goes HARD in the Vengence Saga.
Athena's verse against Ares does carry a melody that was used in Warrior of The Mind: "I had a challenge, a test of skill! A magic boar only the best could kill!"
Edit just to something else: You were right on the nose on the disco feel during Hera's section. It's played like a dance off in the canon animatics
Fun fact about Ody's physique (though skip if you don't know the story):
So, with the whole string his bow thing, he must have had a really heavy draw bow for that to become a challenge, right? Well, there are skeletons of medieval archers that suggest basically that body type likely due to the draw weight of period war bows being typically 100+lbs, some even 150+lbs (for reference, the standard "beginner" weights are about 20-30lbs, with modern olympic archers typically 50lbs for men and 35 for women). The muscles used to draw a bow of that weight are mainly in the back and shoulders, and we get the idea based on the evidence of repetavtive strain found on skeletons. If you'd like to know more, look up the Mary Rose (former British warship).
Precisely! This is why I'm always annoyed that fantasy leaves the archer role to women and elves. Sure, we women can be hella strong, and elves, well, they're magical, but they're always portrayed as these petite, lithe characters, while the swordsman is the massive tank. Swords (REAL swords, not mall swords) don't weigh much, and you can swing them around all day without much fatigue, but bows take POWER to shoot. Archers should be portrayed with broad shoulders and hulking muscles... basically, gym bros who skip leg day.
Ares and Athena are siblings, and they have the same domain (god of war). They're the embodiment of sibling rivalry.
So good! I wanted to hear more analysis of the different sounds and instruments for each god tho, like Apollo’s lyre and the anvil sounds (similar to church bells) for Hephaestus, etc.
The music/mixing stuff and instrument breakdown is what I like best about your reaction videos. I’ve listened to these songs hundreds of times, yet you always manage to catch something I’ve never noticed before!
athena and ares aren't exactly enemies, moreso rivals. both being siblings as well as gods of war, they have that sibling rivalry to the extreme. this is played in epic by both having an equal yet opposite quick thought style ability which sadly the chosen animatic didn't show but the canon one did (it showed it by ares breaking into quite literally the quick thought between athena and aphrodite). while athena's qt is designed to stop time to strategies, ares' is designed to just sorta make the affected go into a war rage
Did you guys notice in the animatic for God Games, Athena has a piano design on her helmet plume and the bottom of her dress. The artist really tied her instrument into her design.
On the ledge... Ody is suffering classic ptsd symptoms. He has sacriced everything, and everyone in order to get home to his wife and child, including much of himself when he became the monster. Up until this moment he has been constantly battling other things, simply staying alive and on constant defense. But Calipso makes him stay on an island where all his needs are taken care of. There is no strife, but also no wife and child. And he is powerless. So all of those anxieties and horrors have nothing to drown them out now. Just like a soldier that feels nothing until he is out of the line of fire and suddenly has to face what they have become.
I like to imagine that athena was pleading with zeus as a daughter since from what I remembered she was his favorite child
I don't see anyone else commenting about 33:34. Ares and Athena are half siblings. Athena burst forth from Zeus' skull and Ares was born of Hera. They are yin and yang. She represents strategic battle, while Ares represents courageous battle (hence calling Ody a coward). They are often at odds but seldom openly in aggression with each other. They have a healthy sibling rivalry but Athena is one of Zeus' favorite children while he is constantly disappointed in Ares. In the original Odyssey, Athena approaches Zeus and he basically says, "I was wondering when you'd want your toy back. Go ahead." Love this song though.
She isn’t really casting a spell on him, her island is under a spell to be unfindable. The only curse she potentially “casts” is the “temptation of paradise.” So he always had these memories, but like you said, pop a pina colada down and hear that music and you can forget your woes…. but only for so long for someone as troubled as Odysseus.
Iirc Calypso can keep someone there with her magic as well. Leaving the island without her blessing basically guarantees you still cant leave even on a raft in the ocean. Most of the time, like also with Perseus, she doesnt let go for years
@ the Odyssey can be interpreted many ways and different city states would have different background understanding of each deity. Some readings say she is indeed the perpetrator of the curse, but I’m Not Sorry For Loving You, Jorge makes it pretty explicit that she was cast away to that island ie she was cursed/banished.
@ if someone views her tale as an important tale of a man being victimized through SA then that is their right, I view Calypso as a progressive viewpoint of the times since she spoke out against the gods hypocrisy towards what goddesses can do vs what gods can do.
Odysseus on the cliff, seems like he has depression that has just been building over time the longer he remains unable to escape. He avoids Calypso's advances but he can't actually fight her, before he was able to avoid thinking about everything as he moved forward to get home. Now he is stuck with no way out, each day builds on his depression till you get that cliff moment.
I thought Ody was suffering from PTSD and it might have been a bad day. Like, imagine waking up every day thinking you will never leave the island. Remembering everyone you sacrificed for an unattainable goal. It must have broke him down slowly since he thought that he could escape. Theres a cut song of him trying to leave. Years passing and no progress. But there are a lot of theories. Some think he sensed Athena watching him... Which makes sense now that i typed that out, knowing what i know now... Lol. Im so glad you're done with the Wisdom Saga. I LOVE GodGames. Idk the bells in Hephaestus's forge and the ones in The Underworld tickle my brain. So Psyched for Vengeance!
I really appreciate your analysis of the vocal technice of the singers, it feels like you help unlock another level of appreciation for the work done by the singers 😊
Athena and Ares were the war gods and patrons of two kind of opposed greek nations. Athena is generally portrayed as a tactical fighter (hence all the warrior of the mind stuff) whereas ares is generally portrayed as being much more about brute strength and overwhelming martial power.
Also couple of details about the lore of Epic specifically - Jorge imagined that both Athena and Ares possess versions of the same power, calling Athena's Quick-Thought and Ares's Dark Quick-Thought. The difference, as he describes it, is that Dark Quick-Thought also enrages and evokes strong emotion in whoever it is used on. Also - Ares's instrument is an erhu, a Chinese two-stringed fiddle, and you can hear it take over Athena's melody when Ares uses Dark Quick-Thought on her (and back again as Athena uses her own Quick-Thought in return)! It's apparently reference to Sun Tzu's The Art of War
Peter: "Ody is distractingly jacked!" Me: "So, which one was the "honey" you could spend 7 years on a tropical isle with, huh?" /j /lh
34:18 - The theme you’re thinking of is Warrior of the Mind. “I had a challenge, a test of skill!”
He needs to see the livestream animatics. The ones for wisdom saga were sooo good
Aries and Athena are both essentially gods of war. Aries is the god of war. Athena is the goddess of warfare, wisdom, strategy and what not. They are also half siblings, sharing Zeus as their father 👍
28:53 Apollo is also the god of music, poetry, healing, archery, etc.
I know absolutely nothing about music and singing but your videos are always so informative and fun! 😂 Thank you for sharing
Fun fact, Apollo in this period was the god of music (hence his argument about the sirens). Helios was the god of the sun first. Also, Ares and Athena have a sibling rivalry because one is a strategist and the other one uses more brute force.
I am convinced the animatic artist for 'Love in Paradise' learned from Attack on Titan. Something about the eyes and hair.
I think my favourite thing about the song is how uh, _vague_ it is in terms of how far Calypso takes things. I prefer to think that she knew to back off at _some_ point, just because I hope Ody had a little peace and quiet out of seven years. Which is absolutely not the case in the Odyssey apparently.
But it certainly could go either way. Animatic artists go the whole spectrum.
After rewatching, I am actually suprised you didn't recognize Ares' motif is the same as Athena's, just in his instrument. They're half-siblings who are both associated with war with very different ideals; which is why they clash so often. Ares looks to the bloodshed, chaos, and ultimately honor of face to face all out battle. While Athena focuses on wisdom and strategy.
16:27 I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't think he's "suddenly" remembering anything, but that we're getting a glimpse into day-to-day life on Calypso's island. To this point, Odysseus has been constantly on the move, constantly working towards his goal to get back to his family; however, trapped as he is on Calypso's island with nowhere to run, he's had nothing to do but sit with everything that's happened to him and what he's done to this point- things he did that at this point and time seem to have been for nothing- and wallow.
Also note:
No Longer You - "I see you on the brink of death"
Love In Paradise - Odysseus LITERALLY standing on the brink.
"Im finally caught up.."
Jorge: r u sure about that *proceeds to drop 2 more sagas*
props to your editor! I love the little additions
As always, love your commentary and analysis. And so glad I'm not the only one who gets distracted by a well-built man xD BrittPowwPixel does some REALLY good art :D
4:43 Actually, I'm pretty sure they actually had to re-record at least some of them, like Ruthlessness, Different Beast and Scylla; because the rythm of their singing is different than the original songs, and it's not because the song is faster, but because there are pauses and timings between syllables in some words that are missing in the new version
Idk it might hear ir wrong, though 🤷🏻♀️
So excited to see your reaction to the Wisdom Saga
Athena and Ares are like water and oil. They are both Wargods. But Athena is the Goddes of Strategy while Ares is the God of "The bigger Stick winns".
I love the piano refrences in Athena's design
This was awesome 😎 love how you go in depth on character voices and matching personalities of that character ❤ I nerd out about that too.
It's like that sun covered by clouds, You don't always see the light but it never stops shining 💥Success for everyone who read it.🍀💞💖
Not a bad place to stay he says while Ody being sexually assaulted, harassed, emotionally abused and raped for 7 years... poor man.
Athena and Ares are opposite sides of the same spectrum. Athena, the wisdom and strategy in war and Ares, the violence and anger.
😢 now I gotta wait for the rest. I went to your patreon and you haven’t done the next 2 sagas. I look forward to them dropping. I love your breakdown and analysis. Plus these last 2 sagas hit so hard. Again can’t wait to see your input on the last 2 sagas!!!
Athena in love in paradise is diving through time with wings if you watch Jorge’s livestream there’s a animatic for this song where she does it.
9:46 "Although he resisted Circe", not in real life tho (and they are so cute together 🥰)
Depends on the depiction. At least one version is through force, not him giving in.
@@ethanhinkle683 I was talking about Jorge and Talya 😅but you're right!
@@lauraqwerty_ Ah, my bad. Reading comprehension fail. You are right, though, they're super cute together.
Pleaseee react to the livestream for the next two sagas! Please Peter! 🥲
I like Mumder's Athena, with the piano design
I'm looking forward to a podcast of yours with Jayy!!
It's not that he's remembering just right then, its just that Athena looked at where Odysseus floated to after Thunder Bringer, and then for 7 Years Ody was having PTSD of his Journey and sadly Calypso wasnt making it any better with her pestering, we are just seeing one the most final times at the end of the seven years. We, as the audience, are looking through Athena Hour Glass and seeing one of those highlights
The Odyssey has A LOT of repetition in it as a story because it was an orally recited myth. It's why we almost immediately get call backs even in Saga 2.
I think it specifically kicks off the underworld (and the people in it) when he’s near death
3:02 Did anyone else think they missed a number or counting when they heard this? 🧛♂️😂
Hope you go back and watch more of Britt’s work-she’s done a bunch of the songs, and it seems you like her art style!
Just a wuick correction about the mixing and mastering. The mixing and mastering was actually done by Jorge himself, but under the guidance of JP Warner mixed the original Troy and Cyclops sagas. So Jorge does the mixing but gets feedback from JP warner sbout it
15:58 oh my goodness she’s just been keeping him alive by this point he’s begging for her to leave him alone
They did re-record parts for the flashback. At least for Odysseus and Scylla because you can hear the difference if you listen to the actual songs. I don't know if they did it for all of them though
odysseus was sort of under a spell. she would sing in order to enchant him iirc but his desire to be with penelope was stronger. he spent every day for those 7 years crying before calypso would force him to bed.
Athena and Ares theme is quite similar probably you notice the theme Ares entrance just same theme warior of the mind just bit disoriented. It's like his power quick thought similar like athena. When Athena quick thought more calm one person mind, ares quick thought is more destructive and more anger. That's why in animation Athena seems hurt cus she did quick thought to approdite but ares interrupt her with his quick thought
I kinda want a little album of your mom's cello music now
Can someone explain why watching this vid just made me so stupidly happy?
May I recommend Hold Them Down and Odyssyus?? These two are, I think, 2 songs before the final last 2 songs of the last saga. And I personally adore these two
Please react to the livestream for the Ithaca Saga!! Please 🙏 ❤
fully caught up? nah you have two full sagas to watch
You know that thares 2 more Sagas are out right. Vengeance and ethical.
Huh....I never noticed the plume on Athenas head is actually a piano