The WORST Spider-Man Retcon: Sins Past
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- Опубліковано 22 чер 2024
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Twenty years ago, writer J. Michael Straczynski wrote a 6-part Spider-Man story called Sins Past that changed the story behind the iconic death of Gwen Stacy. This episode breaks down why the original story was so important, what the new version did, what a retcon is, quotes from the creative team and editors about Sins Past, and what the sales looked like. Get ready for a wild and bumpy ride through Spider-Man's history. - Розваги
To me, Alan Moore’s revelation that Swamp Thing is a plant who thinks it’s a man rather than a man turned into a plant is the gold standard of retcons.
Yep
Yeah, that blew me away. And it still respects the work of Wein and Wrightson.
Its also just generally way more interesting to play around with. Its better to approach the theme of “what is life/humanity” being placing consciousness in a creature that is explicitly NOT human.
Never liked that retcon, since I never saw the point to it
@@22espec see @Pleasestoptalkingthanks comment right above yours for a good interpretation. stuff like blade runner where the themes of humanity are thrown around by the protags true lack of humanity allow audiences to project their isolation onto those characters.
The most absurd part of Sins Past is that Norman Osborn's son with Gwen doesn't have that horrible trademark hair.
Lol yeah , he does really looks a lot like Peter Parker more
Not a fan of the close cropped jew-fro?
Horrible? The Osborn ridges are godlike!
@@Shinmsl The main reason for this is probably because they were originally intended to be Peter's children, an early script for the story implies that Peter really is their father and Norman simply abducted and raised them. I have no solid evidence to back up this claim but I belive this is indicating that the whole Norman is the father twist is more of a last minute decision forced by the editorial as Peter having kids would "age him up."
Trademark waves
Ah yes, Mysterio’s evil plot to turn Norman Osbon gay.
"They're putting chemicals in the water to turn the Goblins gay!"
😆✨
@@Robocopnik😂🔥
Always has been lmao
😂@@Robocopnik
I take great schadenfreude in Quesada being so wrong. Readers cannot get enough of a married Spider-Man with 2 kids in the new Ultimate Spider-Man.
It was such a dumb excuse just look at Dragon Ball. Goku not only grew up but became a father and is still arguably the most recognized character in manga history
It says something when most of the writers against the marriage range from mediocre to genuinely bad. Slott, Quesada, Wells, Priest/Owsley are all people who have a rather questionable track record with Peter in general.
@@jamalwalkerAnd he is a fucking grandpa now.
"One More Day" is such a great title, and the arc art of Spidey being crushed by said title while Mary jane reaches down to him is also strong. And then the story just sucked so bad.
@@jamalwalker And just like Goku, it was the editors who never wanted him to grow up. Toriyama had to sneak that past them by just having him show up as an adult without telling anybody he was gonna do it.
Cap being retconed to have been frozen before the end of WW2 is one of the best retcons tbh
That and having Magneto be the parent of Scarlet Witch and quicksilver
A retcon so good people (like me) forget it’s a retcon
And then they had to retcon the retcon for corporate greed reasons.
Magneto being in the death camps was a great idea imo ?
And I hated the retcon showing he wasn't their father at all,all down to MCU continuity,really shit idea imo ?
All of Claremont's Magento retcons rule. Him being a Holocaust survivor, and a friend of Xavier's... these are now defining aspects of the character.
Why did Joe Quesada hate Spider-Man so much that he signed off on Sins Past and One More Day?
He thinks he loves Spider-Man. You know, the way people who hit their spouses think they love them
My guess is he was jealous of Peter's happy marriage.think about that he was jealous of the love life of a fictional character.
He loves the character so much that he wants to Peter Pan the guy and make him a a little boy forever.
I hated this story so much I completely forgot this even existed. God this was insulting. Honestly the more I think about it, I think I enjoy Spider-Man more outside of comics. They’ve ran him into the ground with so many trash stories it’s exhausting.
He has the same love for Spiderman as those clowns that made that one fanfilm.
Daredevil's mum having postpartum depression and that being the reason she left was a retcon I loved.
Me too.
And it's quite recent too
But the Karen being a junkie with aids and selling Matt's identity to fisk was imo too much ?
Retconning Daredevil's origin so he was trained by Stick instead of being self-taught was great since it not only made more sense but expanded the mythos
It expands the lore and serves as a launching point for more stories. The best kind of retcon.
The Norman O-face is so terrible as it is, but the fact that it's Tommy Lee Jones with the Osborn cornrows makes it so much creepier.
It's always kind of weird (and takes me out of the story, a bit) when a character is very clearly modeled off someone in particular IRL (unless they always look like them, like with Samuel L Jackson and Nick Fury). Probably just a "me" problem, tho.
@@Robocopniknot just you.
Ah so that is what that face was reminding me off. Lol
@@Robocopnik if im not wrong Robert Redford also "starred" that arc
Norman Osborn has always creeped me out too.. a grown ass man who's obsessed with a teenager, and goes out of his way and does everything to ruin said teenager's life.. I actually like obsessive villains like the joker and lex luthor but norman is just straight up annoying and creepy
One retcon (I still can't believe it is one) is Magneto being a holocaust survivor.
I think it really puts his antagonism into persective for me, and is a integral part of his background.
Reading some early stories with him as the bad guy are really weird cuz he's just a generic villain. He didn't have anything interesting about him (at least in the stories I've read)
Personally, I'm beyond tired of World War 2 callbacks in fiction. When I find out a character has anything to do with that era, I immediately lose all interest.
@@Chud_Bud That is a pretty tired trope, but Max is a nuanced enough character to make it work imo. Also he's been retconned to be a holocaust survivor long before it was a tired trope.
This plot twist is on the level of a telenovela twist, all it was missing is the camera doing weird close ups.
I mean, superhero comics are kinda already a telenovela with action, after all.
The close up was on Green Goblin's OH!-Face...
@@alnu8355You are right. Lol
@@SammEater I am very happy this retcon got retconed.
"The fans will go nuts." - There is such a thing as bad publicity.
One retcon that I really do like is in Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #1 by Zdarsky, where we see that Jonah was buying Peter's photos of Spider-Man because he knew of Uncle Ben's murder and wanted to help Peter despite his pictures not always being the best
Zdarsky's Spectacular run and the two limited series (Spider's Shadow and Life Story) have been some of the most enjoyable recent Spidey reads in my opinion aside from Tom Taylor's Friendly Neighborhood run.
@@shinyocelot04archiveabsolutely! Really great stuff
I just read that one for the first time the other day and got choked up
Life story is overrated
Just the first issue is enjoyable.
After that it is Bad executed and rushed@@shinyocelot04archive
That sounds like an OK one, I guess.
"Quality trivia from a quality host."
No lies detected.
what a quality comment!
@@archmagefrey what a quality review of a comment!
@@dimwarlock that's how I know that you're quality!
Youre goddamn right
Knowing that this story exists and seeing Norman's o-face is reason enough to wipe the MU continuity clean and start again from scratch.
I hope they bring back Ace
Because it worked SOOOOO WEEELLLL for DC, huh? Best to keep it all the stories canon, or else it becomes a neverending convoluted reboot mess.
@kingofthegundam7974 Some stories absolutely do not deserve to be canonized. Let alone be remembered. This is one of them.
Continuity reboots haven't worked because of lack of commitment both from both creators and fans to let go of the past. And yes, also because of crap ideas/stories.
The worst part of Sins Past is that it's 20 years old. 20 years WTF! Where did the time go????
14 years I think
@@22espec14? One More Day is already 16 years old
Quesada's sick obsession with "keeping Peter young" is so misguided and bizarre. The fans have made it clear so many times, thats not what they care about, but he just refuses to listen.
He seems very 'blame adverse'/washing his hands of his culpability with his input on Sins Past always seemed pretty lame to me (and his creative ideas were hack nonsense, Wolverine firm origin, Spider-Man's deal the devil)
Harry's retcon was not the retcon we deserve, but the retcon we needed
Parallax being a fear entity rather than Hal Jordan going insane is one of my personal favorite retcons
Yeah,always thought the original tale was weak ? No way hal fell like that ?
Funny enough, I liked Hal's saga as parallax and felt it made him a much more iconic character. Also liked his redemption sacrificing himself.
Ineteresting how we can all have very different opiniins
@@wtflolmau that's the beauty of it all,,there's something for everyone,same tale different viewpoints
@@wtflolmausame I hate how they had to keep Hal as the good guy , this did something worse to another green Lantern
Fun fact about this story. Here in Italy there is not an omnibus edition for Straczynski's Spider-Man run, only some hardcovers (which I own) that only reprint stories up until the Book of Ezekiel. This story is so hated that even after 20 years it's never been printed in Italy outside of the original issues, so I've never actually read it for myself (and I think I want to preserve my memory of Straczynski's Spider-Man to those sweetly imperfect first stories so I'm fine with that)
On a side note, I think the retcon of Bucky being alive as the Winter Soldier was ok, but maybe because I have a strongly positive opinion of Brubaker's run on Captain America as it was the first I've read of the character (and still one of the all-time best imo) so I'm not completely unbiased here
Winter Soldier is a good example of what Chris is talking about. Brubaker's entire run was built around that Retcon. He made it meaningful. Sins Past was a throwaway to get some attention for a few issues then move on. Straczynski should have known better. The rest of his run shows that. Imagine if Ed's Cap run never dealt with Bucky again after a six issue story that brought him back.
He forgot to say "Hello welcome to ComicTropes where I talk about comic and my name is Tropes."
I don't know if this would be classed as a 'retcon' Chris, but I always liked how John Byrne changed Lex Luthor from a goofy supervillain to a megalomaniac businessman.
The thing with DC is they tend to do less retcons due to the fact they just reboot the entire universe ever-so-often. ;)
I’d call that a reboot or reimagining, but your mileage may vary there. Thanks for watching, Staz.
@@Frankenstein077 such a better way to do things honestly compared to Marvel’s "everything is canon and we’ll fit 6 decades worth of backstory into 1 even if it doesn’t make sense."
@@Frankenstein077 The entire Silver Age of comics is a retcon of the Golden Age ('30s - '40s) of comics.
@yowatchie But DC also does that to a extent. They reboot, but most of the characters still have backstories including several of their past stories. With the added issue that it make the continuity more confusing to follow.
The most notable example being New 52 "Superheroes appeared 5 years ago" thing, with Batman still having gone through 4 robins.
Marvel's problem with the "fitting 60 years of publication in 10 to 15 in-universe years" is just that they should stop being afraid of seeing the universe move forward.
My fave retcon (and type of retcon per se) is that the 'X' in Weapon X was not the letter of the alphabet, but the Roman numeral. That one opened up so much, including tying most Super Soldier programs together.
The Hobgoblin Lives storyline is probably one of the best ways to do a retcon in comics, it addresses a plot hole while also still being in line with the whole Hobgoblin character and trope of fake outs and body doubles. It's like a better version of the Norman Osborn revival and still made him cool and competent even just for that one story.
exactly. Hobgoblin was my favorite, he was sane , where Norman wasn't, and he was done wrong at the end. So happy Stern came back to fix it
Yeah. I just re-read the original Stern Hobgoblin run yesterday, and I have to say that those original issues (up to 251) did a fine job of setting up Kingsley. I know many people disliked the "twin brother" conceit, but I think audiences in 1985 would have accepted that misdirection if they had followed through with it.
@@daviddalrymple2284 People think of oomics getting more grown up over the years , but anyone who hasn't read Roger Stern's run, it was actual mature instead of stunts and dark stories. Just look at Jonah's story from #251.
But that wasn't a retcon. That was the original story finally told by the original author.
@@marcelo-ramos It was a retcon because there was a story printed that it changed. A Bad story, but that was the existing story for 9 years.
Spoilers from cloning saga and civil war ahead! You've been warned. One story I liked in cloning saga was death of Aunt May, and in my head-canon it's still official death. It was later retconned, which sucks. What sucks even more is her next "death" in civil war, which puts Peter into a deal with devil. Peter accepted death of Aunt May very well years ago, and now he is doing that? No, no. Sure, maybe this time he feels guilty because "it's his fault for revealing his identity", but the behaviour is not Peter Parker. It's like, I dunno, making Gwen Stacy have an affair with Green Goblin.
And they didn't even retcon Sins Past with One More Day!
Aunt May death in the Clone saga was meant for Peter finally grow up, and by means of not letting him grow they keep bringing her back. It's boring. JMS did use Aunt May very well in his time so there's that silver linning
@@Shinmsl I LOVED the "grown-up" Peter that we got under Michelinie. For my formative Spider-Man reading years of 1988 thru 1993, that's who Spider-Man was. I enjoyed reading the exploits of Young Peter in various reprints, but I started with adult Spider-Man. I don't know why Marvel seems to think that Peter needs to be young to reach new readers. All the new readers that made Todd McFarlane's run such a huge success in 1989-1990 were reading an adult Spider-Man. And "Brand New Day" just caused ASM readership to plummet 25% after it had held steady for most of the previous decade.
I feel the same for the most part...I like how they wrote Aunt May in Vol.2 but her death by J.M.DeMatteis is one of the best writing in ASM
I will never forgive Marvel for this. They don’t deserve Spider-Man, the best comic book character of all time.
I read middling Spider-Man comics for years just because John Romita Jr was drawing them. When Strazynski showed up I appreciated that he was trying some unique concepts and wrote some propulsive battle scenes with really physicality for Jr to draw. When this story came out I stared at the page blankly.
This isn’t a comic related retcon but I’m quite a big fan of the War Doctor (John Hurt) retcon from Doctor Who. I like how it takes advantage of the ambiguity surrounding the lack of onscreen regeneration between 8 (Paul McGann) and 9 (Christopher Eccelston) and while it was born from Christopher Eccelston not wanting to return for the 50th anniversary I think what was done with it worked really well. The idea of a Doctor who gave up the title, who feels that he failed to live up to his promise despite actually still being that same character deep down is really interesting and I think it was written and performed brilliantly. Plus it lead to a fantastic series of audio plays from Big Finish.
See my problem with the War Doctor retcon is that series 1 of the revival heavily implies that it was 9 who fought in the Time War, and the War Doctor goes against that. I understand that they couldn’t get Eccleston back, but they really should have changed directions with the plot of the 50th when he said no imo. Maybe included more classic Who elements, since the 50th really feels like an anniversary for the revival era rather than the whole franchise. The 60th did it better I think.
@@magicalgirllaurie
Watching Series 1 again, the Ninth Doctor seems more like a veteran survivor than a warrior, many even thought it was the Eighth Doctor who fought in the war.
@@magicalgirllauriethe general opinion among older fans when NewWho series one came out was that 8 fought in the time war and 9 was newly regenerated. Some of the spin off novels actually reference 8 having fought in the time war and 9 being a sort of self contained PTSD riddled incarnation trying to hold himself together. Which I'd argue is how Eccleston played him.
@@medes5597 Yeah. One of the first things that the 9th Doctor does in "Rose" is look at himself in the mirror and say "Look at the ears!" which implies he was seeing his new face for the first time.
I hated sins past it not only ruins the death of Gwen Stacy but also ruins Gwen Stacy as a character as a whole and to make it worse this story like one more day ruins not only Peter Parker Spider-Man and Mary Jane but ruins everyone involved but that’s just my opinion.
Nope. That´s a fact XD
@@TrashmanCZ indeed
And the later retcon by Spencer still leaves us with a Mary Jane who kept what she thought was the reality of these children from Peter.
@@cdadamly indeed even though they are technically clones and not really anyone kids
a cold one to you sr 🍺👍!
Green Lantern Rebirth for me, is the best retcon of all time.
Geoff Johns' retcons blended so seamlessly, and not only did it reinvigorate the title, but also propelled it to new heights. His subsequent run after Rebirth is still not topped.
Agreed
That's Geoff Johns specialty taken bad stories and making something good out it.
I always loved how the concept of the Green Lantern Corps makes it so that all the iterations of GL can fight together. Bringing back Hal Jordan didn't screw over Kyle Rayner fans.
I love Geoff Johns and what he did for GL except….. he did the Guardians dirty near the end. Basically making them villains after over 50 years of being peace keepers. I get they have been very enigmatic in the past but the way Johns did it, didn’t sit right with me.
A very, very, very recent retcon that I am a huge fan of is from Ryan North's current run, where he reveals that not only is Franklin Richards still in full possession of his cosmic powers and awareness, he specifically turns them off and removes all knowledge of it for all but one day of the year, where he makes sure any serious threats that won't be able to be solved by the Fantastic Four are averted. Good way to explain why over the years Franklin suddenly loses his powers or even his genetic status as a mutant if it looks like it's going to mean he gets separated from his family.
That story is the equivalent of a war crime in the comic space.
Gwen was thrown off the Brooklyn Bridge, George Washington Bridge was busy developing his career in S.H.I.E.L.D....
Nice
I absolutely love the retcon and the connection between Weapon X and Captain America. For me, this is an example of a perfect retcon - it adds a lot of new context to a given story, without making it outdated.
Well, if it makes it feel better, the reason why Sins Past got retconned in such a convoluted way is because Spencer was aiming to retcon One More Day and Editorial (aka, Cebulski, Lowe and Slott) vetoed it at the last minute
That's why there's so many references to OMD and BND just to pull a gotcha moment at the end
Oh god. I remember this storyline. It happened to me that due to complicated life circumstances I couldn't afford buying or getting comics for a good bunch of years. When I finally managed to get some from the public library years later, I picked this one without knowing anything about it. The story seemed so out of place to me that I thought I was reading a what if/elseworld story. Without an internet connection at the time, I couldn't figure out if this was a canonical story or not.
Magneto being a Holocaust Survivor/Jewish man is ingenious and its just an aspect of that character now. Retcons definitely can be messy, but it's hard to name another that just ultimately saves a character. In fact, I might just say Claremont's version of Magneto as a character retcon is just needed for that character to survive to today
Turning a second-rate villain into holocaust propaganda isn't my idea of a good retcon.
Darth Vader being Luke's father was a retcon. The problem with retcons is that people only think of them as contradictory retcons, i.e. as plot holes, and not lets say fill-in retcons were we get more information.
I dunno if I would call it a retcon. It didn’t rewrite anything, just added to it.
Leia being a sister is the one I would call the retcon given that kiss lol
@@DanJuega And I rest my case. Can't think of it as a retcon if it isn't a contradiction.
@@DanJuegaBen said Vader killed Luke’s father didn’t he? The idea that Ben lied, “from a certain point of view” is a textbook retcon.
@@DanJuega it wasn't intended to be so originally, and changes the established lore, it's a retcon
Cap's retcon to erase the 50s Commie Buster was good.
Yeah I would agree 👍
Agreed.
That one worked because of the slight costume change.. Subtle but significant. And the brief run of that version nothing classic to mess with.
I liked the Miracleman redo because the original was lame.
Brubaker had some good retcons on Cap
Marvel: *Finally undoes Sins Past after 17 years*
Fanbase: Great Job
Marvel: *Immediately does Sins Past 2.0 but with MJ this time*
Fanbase: $*$*%
used to being 'taught a lesson" so many times that it doesn't even register to them anymore. hate to see it
I love the winter solider and black widow’s stories together so Bucky’s recon is like one of the few death retcons I’ll accept
The best retcons are all Captain America related: the Winter Soldier, the 1950s Captain Americas, him meeting Wolverine in WWII.
To me, one of the defining elements of Spider-Man's "power fantasy" (at least for the first 30 years) was that he faced realistic everyday problems and eventually overcame them. You have incredibly depressing and angsty moments (like Peter needing money to cover Black Cat's hospital bills at a time when Jameson isn't buying his photos) which are followed by satisfying and cathartic moments (like the city of New York agreeing to cover those bills in recognition of Spider-Man's heroism). There's lots of melodrama in Spider-Man stories, but it's usually firmly rooted in everyday life (loss of loved ones, money troubles, relationship troubles, failure of dreams, responsibility, etc.) Even distinctly super-hero plotlines (like Spider-Man feeling like he's not good enough for the Avengers) have easily-relatable themes (imposter syndrome).
Aside from the way that reason and logic rejects the storyline, I think a big reason why "Sins Past" fails is because (a) it's hard for most of the audience to wrap their heads around the kind of betrayal they'd feel in Peter's shoes and (b) there's no cathartic release. The whole event just becomes a permanent stain on Peter's heart. Even the grief around Uncle Ben's death eventually found a cathartic release in Lee/Ditko's legendary "The Final Chapter". And as noted in the video, we've previously had numerous cathartic moments dealing with Gwen's death.
I know this sentiment has been shared before Chris, but personally I've never needed weekly uploads or anything. Just happy you're doing you and staying okay, always a pleasure to see another vid!
It works better than the follow-up, "Sim's Past," in which Peter Parker starts drawing a 300-issue graphic novel about how women are parasites.
😂😂😂 Yeah, Cerebus really was a roller coaster wasn’t it? Some great humor, well done homages, and insightful political satire devolved into whack-a-doo, tin-foil hat misogyny and echo chamber navel gazing.
I absolutely adore the first half of JMS’s Spider-Man run. Morlun works for me as a villain, the characters are all written extremely well, and Peter as a teacher is a wonderful concept. I also feel that issue 500 is honestly a really solid “ending” for the character, with him finally acknowledging that he is happy with his life after revisiting all the grief he faced before.
All that said, the second half is where it loses me. I think a lot of it has to do with editorial mandates, but it’s hard to lay the entirety of the blame with Marvel and ignore JMS’s part in all of it. It’s sad, because it had such a strong start and just kinda fizzled out at the end.
I liked it when Jason Todd can back as the Red Hood. Great recon in my opinion.
Right? That really shouldn’t have worked but Winnick did it masterfully. One of the best toon movie adaptations too.
@@JamesTMolloy I agree. The animated movie is one of my favourite adaptations. The last fight between Jason and Bruce was so brutal. I always wanted Jensen to portray a live action Red Hood but sadly that will never manifest.
It's great although my one and only criticism is "if I kill him the number of killers would be the same"
Should have just said"ill be no better than him" only nothing more@@achillesc6703
Sorry to hear that you are battling depression. Honestly you have my dream job, i always loved comics and Spider-Man. Talking about them as a job and inspiring others, giving them a colorful life just like many people who helped to create these stories is a blessing. I hope you get better, just like these stories you talk about, it’s about keep trying and fighting🤟🏻
Man, every time a new Comic Tropes is released I am reminded that it is one of the best UA-cam channels of all time - regardless of genre or category.
The BEST retcon is Wolverine's bone claws. Taking it from him having them.implanted to part of his mutation opened up a whole bunch of storytelling.
I will NEVER get over Norman's O-face 🤣
I rarely say this but we love and appreciate you, Chris!
I know the movie is so so but I always loves how they made Sabertooth Wolverine’s older brother. Something about the dynamic and the rivalry feels elevated by them being brothers
Liev Schreiber was fantastic as Sabertooth, I loved the first half of the film
Only happened to learn about this a month ago. Poor wife had to listen to me rant about it all day. Crazy to think it's been over twenty years since I've given up on Marvel.
There are retcon levels.
A change to history that expands stories, "this is my secret mentor."
Recontextualizes the existing material, "you have been hallucinating, things are not what you thought they were."
Meaningless repaints, "my original costume used this kind of color scheme."
Erosion, "that thing happened, but the yhing that made it interesting didn't, so we can have a character come back and be Green Lantern again."
Full undo, "the entire universe has been erased and a nee world that is flat and easy to market, because businessmen run things rather than artists and writers."
I think the Parallel Lives retcon (which stated that MJ knew Peter's secret ID from the start) worked really well for both characters.
That’s a great story that is really underrated imo
That is a phenomenal comic and I’m so glad I own it. I go over it multiple times a year since it’s such a fun and quick read. Not only does it explain when and how MJ found out Peter was Spider-Man (something she doesn’t explain the main comic) but it really deepens her character even further by giving her pov and shows in depth how her party girl persona was a way to avoid her home problems.
@@yowatchie It also shows why she’s Peter’s true love interest. Gwen was good but she didn’t really have a personality until years later and Black Cat only liked the Spider-Man persona. MJ on the other hand had a similar upbringing and was the one who really loved him for who he was and was there for him through thick and thin
I still have yet to read that, but they incorporated Parallel Lives into "The Spider-Man Saga" (a limited series from ~1992 that exhaustively recapped virtually every Spider-Man appearance, including guest appearances and Marvel Team-Up, from Amazing Fantasy 15 to Amazing Spider-Man 300) and I loved how it fit so well with all the established canon: why MJ suggested seeing the Rhino back when they first met, why she left town after turning down Peter's proposal...
This is the worst kind of retcon. It actively damages the characters involved
I wish there was a better way to undo Sins Past without bogging down the mainline comic run. Really not an engaging read in the present. Great video as always.
There is! We simply ignore it in our minds 😊
@@BlueB33dle Unfortunately that is not considered satisfactory to the mainstream audience, hence the inane brakes needed to sweep it out, sloppily.
Simple, the comics starts with peter waking up in the bed with his beautiful wife MJ and his daughter and realize that everything that happened after 1993 in the comics was a bizarre fever dream.
No clone saga, no sins past, no one more day, no superior spiderman, no spider-verse, non of the shitty writting by the "modern" writters in the last 34 years happened...
I firmly believe the main Marvel universe could use a total reboot.
Give a satisfying conclusion to all the characters and start fresh with a new continuity.
I feel like if JMS got the chance to resolve it quickly after it happened, it could have been as easy as "That was an early Gwen clone that was heavily corrupted". The current solution seems like it was awkwardly fixed in a story that had build-up that seemed intended to fix One more Day instead.
I really respect how earnest you are about your depression, as someone who also struggles with it its always nice to know youre not alone. Thanks for more comics tropes fun!
Always great to hear your fair and candid takes on comics and comic stories, Chris.
While it's not much of a retcon, I think that J.M. DeMatteis bringing back Helmut Zemo from his one-off appearance in Steve Englehart's run was a great idea, and has lead to some awesome stories like Under Siege and the original Thunderbolts.
great stuff Chris!
I didn't know about this story at all and I'm 100% with you, it's not a good one, it only changes things for the worst. Thanks for sharing! great video!
Good job on the video! Keep up the good work!
I'm glad your takin care of yourself! Thank you for your deep dives!
Always excited to see you in my feed Chris! Thanks for making all these awesome videos :) I’m sorry to hear you’re having a tough time with depression. Hang in there man
U r one of those Creators that always provide some new lecture to that comics, people or fans just replicates the same old perspective,like a fact, and don´t try to give it some new meaning to.
Love You man, living in depression takes a lot of ourselves.
The best retcons are ones that are so simple and so clever that you don't even realize they are retcons. It is very rare for a story to be good if it exists purely as a retcon, but if something is changed or expanded on so casually you can't even parse it as a retcon, that's clever. Nick Spencer's retcon of the retcon is undoubtedly kind of bad. Convoluted nonsense to explain something I think most people were perfectly happy never thinking about again. But simple stuff always works. Like how for awhile, Clark didn't grow up in Kansas, he lived in an orphanage. But the retcon that introduced the Kent farm was so simple and made such perfect sense it just stuck around for the rest of time.
Oh Hi! You caught me hating Spider-Man. Speaking of hating Spider-Man, let’s talk about Joe Quesada.
Issue 512, part 4 of Sins Past was my FIRST spider-man comic. Bought it from a newsagency. Didn't buy a second issue of a Spidey book for years afterwards. Awful experience.
Love your shows, take care man, we will wait!
Great episode!
Hoo boy. I remember this story
You really are a quality host. One of my favorite UA-cam channels. My wife barely tolerates my nerdy interests. But she lets me watch your channel when we eat while watching TV. So, thank you for that.
Always appreciate your observations and perspective. Thank you!
YOO THAT DEVILMAN BASED FANART THOUGH :)
That Bucky was not actually a little kid, but a young man and the deadly backup as Cap drew all the attention. And of course, the Winter Soldier undoing Bucky's death actually worked for me. Your mileage may vary.
I don’t know One More Day gives Sins Past a run for its money.
One More Day is Watchmen compared to Sins Past.
One More Day is the bigger offender in my mind. It is antithetical to what Spider-Man is about. Peter doesn't take responsibility for what he has done and avoids suffering consequences. OMD runs completely counter to the themes of the main character.
Sins Past "only" character assassinated a beloved supporting cast member long after she was actively involved in the story, while not adding anything substantial to the overall tapestry. And these days, it also has the benefit of having been retconned itself.
Great episode! Keep on going!
Hey Chris!
A good few videos ago you had mentioned how you were fighting with some depression. I just wanted to say that me, and many others love what you do and thank you for all the years of videos. We love you and hope you give that same love back to yourself.
You deserve it.
Best, man!
The Winter Soldier is maybe the best retcon of all time. It let the writers bring back a well-known character, didn't mangle existing continuity, didn't diminish Cap's sense of loss from thinking Bucky was dead (if anything, it refreshed it, with Cap now lamenting that he had "left behind" a friend who was still alive) and it opened an enormous sandbox for other creators to play in, from the present-day personality and relationships of Bucky to decades of potential stories from his time as a sleeper agent. Terrific, terrific stuff.
What a horrible day to have memories in my brain about this storyline! And yet marvel seems to continue trying to top this awful story.
You're doing great work man
Thanks for another Top Notch video, hope you have a great Friday Chris!! Loved the bloopers in the Outro lmaooo 😂😂
1. New 52 Wonder Woman´s origin. Not only do they make her a demigoddess (with a more interesting story and more "believable concept") but also pays respect to Marston´s origin and doesn´t negate it either.
2. How Hal Jordan wasn´t really evil when he became Parallax but that Parallax was the entity of fear itself. In the process giving an explanation to why yellow was a weakness to the Green Lanterns AND creating the Emotional Spectrum in the process.
Loved the 1st one hated the 2nd one, I loved the fall of Hal Jordan, I harted it was because of a space bug, a fallen hero was perfect for him and it fits well in GL stories and Kyle was doing it great as the new GL but NOOO, new writer came and they were big fans of Jordan so..to explain that he was just possesed and all that.
3. Swamp Thing´s origin. From being a man that turned into a plant monster to a plant that believed to be a human/plant monster thanks to Alan Moore.
4. Robert Venditti´s Hawkman´s run. He made sense of the mess that were all the past lives of Hawkman.
@@22espec You could've kept the Parallax retcon and still left Hal dead (or The Spectre).
Venditti’s Hawkman is a hugely underrated run
@@robs6952 Should be bring back every single time. The man did what was previously impossible.
7:20 My God that image of MJ on the spine is outrageous.
Who told them that was a good idea, omg.
@@Robocopnik Why? because its sexy? because the hot read-head who was always known to be a beautiful confident super model is doing a sexy pose on the spine of the book?
How is a little bit of fan service outragerous? its pretty tame, i find it more funny than erotic...
I wouldn't want that on my shelf where everyone could see it. 👀
Holy fuck did they really delete my comment? people are so fucking weak is not even funny...
Excellent job Chris ! You did a lot of research, and that's why your show is so damn good , Thanks for the awesome entertainment!
I just wanted to say thanks for all the great uploads over the years. You're a great guy and your content always teaches me something new about my favorite comics. Thanks Chris :)
All these years I've been 100% sure that "Green gobling impaling himself on his own glider" scene has been Sam Raimi's invention, but guess not, huh.
Nope, just the Uncle Ben saying great power and responsibility line
@@AceLM92 Rofl :D
@@AceLM92before the movie came out, peter says uncle Ben said the line in spiderman vs wolverine, tho technically I guess he doesn't actually say it himself in that comic
@@AceLM92yeah it was just a text box wasnt it lol
@@PinoyPhill the one from the 80s? I need to reread it because I apparently forgot that retcon.
Ohh, reading sins past is *TIGHT* !
Hey man... Keep on keeping on at your pace. You do great work here representing the comic book fan community.
Great vid as always my friend
I knew which retcon it would be from the seeing the title of the video!
I pretty much HATE the J. Michael Straczynski run. I love the way Peter is characterized in his stories, but the whole underlying "mystical totem" thing just opens it up to the worst kind of arcs (see: Morlun). Honestly though, I probably could have tolerated even this *HORRIBLE* story if Joe Quesada had just let the creative team create instead of constantly trying to "roll back" the Marvel Universe at seemingly every opportunity.
Great vid again Chris 👍
Thanks for the refresher, been 17 years since I read this!
Spider-Man taking Gwen's "five" year old daughter to the bone zone is fucking wild.
I think the retcon of bringing Norman Osborn back from the dead i think has proven to be the correct long term call. There's so many layers and interesting stories to be told with Norman alive that bringing him back was a great call.
Bucky's return as Winter Soldier also proved to be a fantastic call
Hard disagree on Norman. Not only did his return add several layers of "OH COME ON" to the Clone Saga, but his subsequent use in stories "Lex Luthor, but sometimes barking mad" have been "1 hit, 2 misses" at best.
definitely not, he was bigger in death,, and having gwen's murderer running around free is just wrong.
Awesome video Chris! Please take care of yourself.
I think the best retcon is Winter Soldier? Created a new character from the corpse of Bucky, Recontextualizes Captain America's backstory, and opens the door to new stories.