How Marvel Comics' Editors Ruined Hobgoblin
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
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In 1982, the Hobgoblin appeared in the pages of Amazing Spider-Man #238. Powerful, cunning, and mysterious, this new villain was a hit with readers. But a series of problems between the writers and the editors led to his secret identity's reveal landing with a thud. This episode walks through the appearances of Hobgoblin as well as what was happening behind the scenes with creators including Roger Stern, John Romita, Jr., Tom DeFalco, Danny Fingeroth, Jim Owsley (Christopher Priest), Ron Frenz, Peter David, and more. It's a tragic tale involving a lack of trust that hopefully we can all learn from.
The fact that DeFalco lied and said Ned Leeds was the Hobgoblin only to be fired _immediately_ so they were stuck with the _wrong plotline_ is hilarious to me.
Lmao
Marvel didn’t fire De Falco until 1994.
@@TheRealCaptainFreedom fired from the spider man series
@@TheRealCaptainFreedom Ok captain syntax. Priest is still a misbegotten son of a morlock.
Having Kingsley as the Hobgoblin is a perfectly acceptable solution for the mystery, but the whole identical brother who isn't a twin is a very Silver Age bit of silliness, and I can see why people didn't like Stern's idea. Also, as you mentioned, how does a fashion guy manages to achieve a chemical miracle like changing the Goblin formula so that it doesn't make the user insane, but retains every benefit it brings?
Aside from that... yeah, going for an extended mystery in comics like this is very easily screwed up by the roll-out of writers that books can have. It also seems like Roger Stern didn't lay significant clues for the Hobgoblin's identity before he left the book, which in turn easily allows another writer to write someone else as the Hobgoblin.
It's fine. They just needed to make it a twin. Such a small change.
And make sure the twin is introduced.
Kingsley starting out as a fashion designer who only bought a perfume company was a bit of a mistake. For him to literally fix a major side effect of Norman Osborn's Goblin serum he needed to be not Just a fresh set of eyes looking at the formula but well versed in chemistry himself. That's why I really liked the Spectacular Spider-man Cartoon teasing Kingsley as a Perfume magnate with an interesting in buying the Rhino armor secrets *First* To give him that chemistry background.
Also i never got the impression he was identical, just very similar. Huh I thought he'd been introduced earlier.
A fashion guy could afford the people who can bring about a chemical miracle and then off them at least.
@@PosthumanHeresy When narrating to himself in private he says he fixed it himself. Offing the actual experts and then Norman's notes getting burned would probably together have covered why there aren't a ton of class ten powers running around thanks to the perfected serum. The loss of Norman's notes alone didn't make sense for me there.
@@DIEGhostfish I totally agree. With him fixing it himself, it certainly makes _less_ sense, although one could do the typical comic book thing of "he was so successful in life beforehand because his brain is like a damn sponge and he was smart enough to understand all the stuff he read when he began reading Osborn's journals, so GG could have probably fixed it himself in about two months if he had the time, energy, patience, and desire". The best way I can excuse it is just saying he was smart enough to solve the problems, but most of the work was already done for him.
The real Hobgoblin was the friends we made along the way.
Now where does the movie Hobgoblins fit into this story?
No one's ever really Hobgoblin.
This guy gets it
Or rather, the friends we lost along the way
lol
One of the biggest tragedies behind the cancellation of The Spectacular Spider-Man (the show) was that it seemed to be doing a more faithful version of the Hobgoblin, already setting up Roderick, and even Daniel in a more subtle manner. This could've been the Hobgoblin's big break in other media, especially since the 90's show ended up having him job to Green Goblin just because the showrunner didn't care about the character.
Yeah that's one of the big disappointments for me
I never forgive Disney for making Sony cancelled spectacular Spider-Man fr
show was okay but the side characters could’ve been done better and do without the love square
@@Jidom_101I mean that’s just how Spider-Man comics and stories are to be fair, basically a soap opera sometimes, Liz and Peter is pretty new to my knowledge tho I’m terms of relationships
Considering it was based on Ultimate I'd love if Harry was Hobgoblin instead
Wow, I knew Hobgoblin's backstory was a mess due to several different writers all having opposing ideas for the character but I never realized it was this bad. It sucks that people had to be so petty and intentionally tried to ruin each others' work.
Yeah, back then I was just a kid reading Spidey comics and I really liked the idea of Richard Fisk as The Rose, trying to be a better criminal to take down his father and teaming with Hobgoblin, who was a tactical genius and merciless while also being a total wild card whose identity was unknown.
Say what you will about DC Comics in the 1980s, but the editorial reins were TIGHT and disciplined. No confusion. Its probably why I mostly brought DC back then until I expanded my lists in the '90s
@@juniorjames7076 A lot of great comic books. From Morrison's JLA through Robinson's Starman to entire Vertigo imprint.
"It sucks that -people- one prick had to be so petty and intentionally tried to ruin -each- others' work".
There, fixed that for you ;)
@@LoboPreto idk if im jus having a slow moment cuz it is like 3 am but that sentence doesnt make sense to me
Man, this brings back memories. Stern's Spider-Man was a couple of years after I first got into comics. But the Hobgoblin story hooked me for sure. I'm a HUGE fan of Stern's Avengers also.
Likewise. I still remember the Flash Thompson reveal as a kid. That Hobglobin arc was one for the books!!
I've just met the Rod Kingsley and Phil Urich one in the Slott era
Roger was a great writer on ASM and did an awesome job on the Avengers! He could do no wrong!
ua-cam.com/video/9ExCG1GJku4/v-deo.html
Two of the best ever runs! My God that Avengers run was amazing!
A sad and surprisingly common trope in the comic industry is a major character reveal that ends up being changed by editorial interference. The faith that publishers have in writers in this section is disappointing
Say what you will about DC Comics in the 1980s, but the editorial reins were TIGHT and disciplined. No confusion. Its probably why I mostly brought DC back then until I expanded my lists in the '90s
@@juniorjames7076 Not directly due to editorial interference, but DC botched the reveal of Monarch for Armageddon 2001 from not having tight enough reins.
@@jamesdlin7 True, by the late 90s and early 2000s DC became trash as well. I walked away from the major publishers around that time and started buying independent and European graphic novels exclusively.
I only have faith for no more.
What?
This video only scratches the surface of the behind-the-scenes problems at Marvel in 86-87. Their parent company had been liquidated by a hostile takeover, and the pressure was on to make Marvel look attractive to a new buyer. Editor-in-chief Jim Shooter was devoting most of his time to the ultimately unsuccessful "New Universe" line. Deadlines were slipping.
I always did find Hobgoblin to be an interesting villain. Even though he wasn't as powerful as the Green Goblin, he was still more than capable of giving Spider-Man a tough time in many encounters.
I always thought his costume was cooler too.
I loved his horned glider.
This probably isn't still the case but in the comics of the time I think I recall it being said that Hobgoblin's improved goblin formula made him stronger than his predecessor? Could be wrong.
Kingsley starting out as a fashion designer who only bought a perfume company was a bit of a mistake. For him to literally fix a major side effect of Norman Osborn's Goblin serum he needed to be not Just a fresh set of eyes looking at the formula but well versed in chemistry himself. That's why I really liked the Spectacular Spider-man Cartoon teasing Kingsley as a Perfume magnate with an interesting in buying the Rhino armor secrets *First* To give him that chemistry background.
I think the popularity might have been from the spider man animated series bringing him in first instead of green goblin.
The Tale of the Hobgoblin is a cautionary tale of editor interference that can effect a great idea and become the catalyst of the Clone Saga!
And interestingly Tom DeFalco is involved behind the scenes in both stories.
Clone saga started decent but it turned into a huge mess.
Clone Saga and the way they killed off Jericho in DC's Titans were the two main reasons I stopped collecting comics.
The tale of the hobgoblin didn’t end until after the clone saga tho
@@stevemichael652 technically it ended when Green Goblin returned and Ben Reily took one for the team!
One minor quibble: Ned Leeds is never shown as being the Hobgoblin in "Spider-Man Versus Wolverine". (At least not in the original printings; maybe its been modified on Marvel NOW). Peter returns to his hotel room to find Ned, in civilian clothes, tied to a chair with his throat slit. The implication in the issue was that Ned had been killed by the bad guys he was investigating.
Correct. Owsley had nothing to do with ASM #289's Hobgoblin reveal as he had already been fired as Spider-Man editor and replaced by Jim Salicrup. Owsley killed Ned in SMvW to screw up what he believed Tom Defalco had planned and insert his own candidate --- the assassin Foreigner who Peter David had introduced in Spectacular Spider-Man. When Owsley approached Peter David to write The Foreigner as Hobby reveal, David argued that it made no sense but Owsley told him that was how it was going to be. When Owsley was fired and David was tasked by Jim Salicrup to write the reveal, David decided to go back to what he thought DeFalco had planned and reconcile it with SMvW.
He killed him off before the reveal, to screw up Defalco
Yeah… Why would the merc goons take off his costume and dress him in civvies after killing him?
@@____________838 because they were perverts, they want to use the custume for perverted events
@@bfan001 Wait, so are all of the details in this video wrong? After watching the video and reading your comment I now have no clear understanding of what happened.
"I already drew it," is some strong Ozymandias energy.
"I already drew it 35 minutes ago."
The funny thing about all of this is decades later, I'm half expecting Peters best friend in the MCU to become the Hob Goblin somehow. I'd be funny.
I remember watching Harry in the original Spiderman trilogy and expecting him to become Hob Goblin. Gotta watch out for those best friends.
I wonder why they never used Hobgoblin for Spider-Man 3, New Goblin was just dumb
He should have just been Fisk's son I feel. It lines up nicely and would make it so that its a matter of a son trying to steal his father's crown. Even better would be when Fisk finds out and it becomes a matter of personal pride that he needs to show his son there are consequences to his actions. You could even use it to spark what is effectively a crime kingpin civil war that the heroes of New York need to deal with.
This video is my introduction to the Hobgoblin arc but I feel that it being Richard would have worked well too. It would certainly give some weight to the bit where Wilson Fisk saves Spidermans live in rereads.
The problem is that in the early stories the Hobgoblin shows no interest in the Kingpin whatsoever beyond a desire to avoid a confrontation (he'd forgotten Fisk is a member of the club he was doing his blackmailing at). The Priest retcon about Ned Leeds and Richard Fisk working to bring down the Kingpin never fitted well with what Stern had actually written at the time.
It's possible that a Richard Fisk reveal could have worked - but it really needed the character to be current. He hadn't been in the Spider-Man books (under his own identity) for a decade before he was revealed as the Rose - reportedly DeFalco's attempts to re-establish the character were edited out by Priest which added to the mess.
@@timrollpickering Fair enough really. I just think if we were throwing retcons at the wall, that feels like the strongest one.
Also, it wouldn't have been the first time Richard took another identity; he was introduced disguised as Schemer, back in the Lee-Romita Sr's years. I don't know if Richard's personality fits the Hobgobling though. Still, aside from who was the Hobgoblin, another big flaw, as Chris mentions, was how his identity was revealed. It was completely anti-climatic. I like the miniseries Hobgoblin Lives and it is a well done retcon, where Roger Stern really takes full advantage of many thing that transpired between his run in ASM with John Romita Jr and the miniseries where he finally put an end to the Hobgoblin's mystery.
I personally think Fisk as Hobgoblin and Kingsley as The Rose fits *perfectly*. Rose fits Kingsley like a glove for an assortment of reasons (including the Belladonna link!) but for Fisk...
* He has the criminal connections Hobgoblin has - more than Kingsley should have at any rate!
* Richard makes sense with the 'bring shame to my family' line. And his risk of being unmasked puts Vanessa at risk, whereas his being unmasked puts him at risk of Kingpin's wrath!
* As Schemer, Richard already showed he could tailor a villain outfit and also tinker with gimmicks. He would have had the capacity to learn under Kingpin.
* Fisk could have obtained the same Winkler machine that the Kingpin used to brainwash Henchmen into being fake Hobgoblins. Seeing as Kingpin first introduced it, it makes more sense for Richard to have it than the unconnected Kingsley to do so.
* Hobgoblin doesn't show any particular interest in one major person - the fact that Kingpin is excluded from his attentions until he saves Spider-Man is telling.
* Richard is one very strong potential who was never seen with Hobgoblin in person. For it to be anybody else at the club, the Hobgoblin needed a twin or duplicate... Fisk makes the story 'fairer', and less tropey. If Kingsley is the Rose it plays better to this as well as we see Kingsley working for Hobgoblin. This makes sense if he is also Rose.
Clues that don't fit:
* How would Richard Fisk know Mary Jane? (This suits Kingsley much better)
* Richard has always been more interested in revenge against the Kingpin or standing up to his Dad, which doesn't suit early Hobgoblin motivation (and actually doesn't fit with him even when he is actually openly against Kingpin!).
* The 'twin brother' and 'ghod' clues for Kingsley are left untouched with no explanation.
* There are other clues that indicate Ned Leeds, instead of Fisk or Kingsley but these were retconned into Hobgoblin Lives.
But this would be a better choice than Kingsley post Stern, even if Kingsley was Stern's intended.
The point of this is, Owsley managed to ruin it. I have no doubt DeFalco could have finished this in a satisfactory way. But everything I hear about Owsley as an editor makes me think he was a passive aggressive narcissist. DeFalco, on the other hand, everybody always seems to say nice things.
Marvel has a history of there being office mismanagement affecting comic storylines. Particularly with Spider-man. There's this Hobgoblin fiasco, The Clone Saga was a similar mess due to editor/writer B.S. and I'm pretty sure Nick Spencer cut his 'Kindred Saga' short due to differences with management.
Honestly the end issues of Sinister War felt like they were ghost written by someone else. As much as I appreciate Sins Past being retconned, the entire thing moving from something wrong with Peter's soul to what it went to did not make sense. And it also took away any reason why Kindred would be mad at Peter.
@@anubhavkumarcits so clear Spencer planned it as an OMD retcon/revelation, but editorial forced him to make it Sins Past. The whole "its not Harry, but Harry possessing Gabriel and Sarah" felt so convoluted
Roger: “I’m Hobgoblin!”
Ned: “I’m Hobgoblin!”
Spider-Man: “So, whose the real Hobgoblin?”
Both: “I am!”
roger who?
Hobgoblin's fall is a master class in how too many cooks can spoil the soup! Especially when one is a fry cook rather than a chef.
Growing up in that Hobgoblin era, Hobgoblin captured my friend's and my own imaginations! Green Goblin was just this cool villain you could occasionally see in a reprint book. He was widely considered to be Spidey's arch-enemy, but he had been dead for years. To have this master villain show up and take up the mantle fascinated us! Everyone wanted to be the first one to get to the drug store spinner rack to see if Hobgoblin appeared in an issue and if he would be revealed! Then the black costume became a thing and we started getting villains like the Rose and Jack o' Lantern showing up in the book and we all kind of lost interest. When they did that next arc between #259-261, I think I was the only one still reading Spidey and I was done after it came to nothing again. By the time of the "Flash Thompson reveal", I flipped through the book in the store and decided not to waste my money. And the "Ned Leed's Reveal"? When that one happened, I was shocked to see Ned dead in Spider-Man/Wolverine, since he was a pretty big minor character over the years and it seemed like a cheap death. But Ned as the Hobgoblin in Spidey #289? Just felt like another red herring.
I know it's a difficult thing to do, but even in the best circumstances, you can't let a mystery go on and on forever. If it's a year or so, just about any reveal will be cool. You let it drag into two or three years, it had better be something major! And if it's going on five years or longer, you can rest assured nobody cares anymore. Christopher Priest did a lot of damage to the story, which he'll somewhat admit. But having Roger Stern leave the book before the reveal was definitely more damaging. Fingeroth should have sat him down and worked something out rather than have him just leave. Danny seems to have that mindset that a lot of bosses have..."Anyone can be replaced." Yes, but not effectively. Heck, I recently reported to my own job that I was giving notice because a human resources person cursed me out. And rather than just say: "See you later!", the boss sat me down, got to the root of the problem, and worked it out. And I'm still at my job. And probably more productive since I saw they place some importance on my job. Fingeroth just didn't seem to have that kind of sense. Perhaps he thought Stern didn't really HAVE a plan for Hobgoblin and was just milking it until it ran dry. But that is when you sit down and work out the story so the editor AND the other staff know what has been set-up. As an editor, you might have to nix Stern's choice if it's a character someone else plans to use or if it is someone that the ripple effect could cause major changes down the road. Spider-Man traditionally has a large cast to interact with, so you might not want to reveal a mainstay is the big villain. So, the editor should have been asking questions from Day One. And yeah, that wasn't Fingeroth. Hobgoblin's story is just kind of a How-Not-To-Do a character arc in retrospect.
All things considered, though, those issues from Amazing Spider-Man #238-251 enthralled my small town! And I would guess that was kind of across the board. As to my opinion, Roger Stern's idea of Kingsley was probably a good one. He would have the money to do all that he did. And as a backstory progressed, motivation could have gotten interesting. A shame it didn't get to play out.
I think they gave the job to the dishwasher.
Did you read the original clone saga?
The horror.
The horror.
@@dionmcgee5610 The Clone Saga was one of the things that got me out of Spider-Man back in the day. I've been reading it again lately, but, lo and behold! Ben Reilly is back! Can't get away from that garbage. I would much rather just see some Spidey fighting villain one-offs for a while rather than this constant jumping from clones to Carnage to clones. You would think some writers would just have some good one-shot stories under their hat so we could get a break from constant events. But apparently they don't work at Marvel.
@@TheJohno95 I've thought something like that about the Spidey movies. Because we're dealing with movies, not comics, the thought process seems to be that every film has to be an event. To my thinking, if every film is an event, then the concept of event loses its meaning.
I'd like to see a Spidey movie that was just him and a villain (molten man, the Prowler, Scorpion- someone with a good costume) without all that angst and the end of the world scenario making everything grim and serious. Does MJ or A
@@dionmcgee5610 I feel like every Marvel movie is a season premiere of a tv show or a season finale. They definitely seem like they're trying to writer toward a tv season. The problem is that there IS no season...Just big events.
@@TheJohno95 Writing that last comment earlier and the screen went flying away.
Apparently it posted- unfinished.
My only real complaint with the Spidey movies is that each movie has to be a life altering event for PP.
The demand for that sort of (annoying) drama in each movie, I'm sure led to the ridiculous twist iin Spider-man 3 where it turns out the Sandman killed Uncle Ben, not Peter Stormare.
What the ?#*%!!?
Why? So PP can have a life affirming moment and the movie can (they believe-maybe) transcend the genre.
I like the genre. There's no need to transcend anything.
They should do what they didn't do for the last Star Wars trilogy- have a gameplan that resolves itself in the 3rd movie. That way we get 2 movies that are good old fashioned Marvel comic mayhem and the final film can be the transcendent emotional package. .it'll pack more of a walliop if we're not reaching for an emotional high every time.
They should stop killing off important charactors from the comics and (most importantly) EVERY VILLAIN DOESN'T NEED TO DISCOVER SPIDER-MAN'S SECRET IDENTITY!
More of that "end of the world" dramatic overreach.
And when everyone is hobgoblin... Nobody is.
Hobgoblins bigest apparance after this is probably is in the 90's spider-man cartoon. Though he was only used because some people behind the secenes wanted to wait on using the green goblin and his toys were made. He still was a frequently used villian voiced well by mark hammil. Sadly hobgoblin hasn't been used much after that as he has a good visual design and is different enough from the green goblin to be his own character.
I have a soft spot for The Hobgoblin, having had the 90s cartoon get me into Spider-Man. Also when I was in boyscouts the pinewood derby car that I made I made Hobgoblin the driver (from a Happy meal toy). I got second place, you know who beat me ? The kid who made Spider-Man his driver. Lol.
The thing was that when Marvel decided to clear Ned Leeds of being the Hobgoblin was that they ultimately identified someone I never thought could possibly be on the list of suspects (no spoilers). As you said, Roger Stern wasn't able to really set up his suspect AS a suspect. In the end, he had become a minor character, so easily forgotten, that even when they pulled the "evil twin" twist, you couldn't believe it.
And it was SO badly handled that Marvel hasn't been able to use the character since. I am convinced that the REAL reason they had to bring the original Green Goblin back was because they had so screwed up the Hobgoblin (AND the freaking Clone Saga, of course)!
When Marvel finally revealed the Hobgoblin's "identity," all I could think of -- even THEN -- was how Marvel worked so hard to make Ned Leeds the Hobgoblin. They did everything but point a laser light in his direction in every scene. And then they killed him off in Spider-Man vs Wolverine to throw off any suspicions. And when Kingpin found out about Leeds' killing (several months AFTER SMvW), he wasn't happy, and he muttered to himself, "Well, if I could figure it out, he [the Foreigner, who sent the assassins who killed Leeds] could. After all, it was SO obvious!"
Yeah. And then they had to doubletalk it back, making the Kingpin come off as an idiot. VERY badly handled.
Uh? Dan Slott used Hobgoblin a lot during his run.
They have used the character he became demogoblin
@@hugodacosta6864 Actually, I forgot about that run. Thanks for the reminder.
@@thedarkangel120407 Not for long, right? I seem to remember one major story arc, and then they destroyed Demogoblin. I might be misremembering this as well, though.
@@hugodacosta6864 Dan Slott verdion of Hobgoblin was like 20 years after the fact and it was a different person taking on the identity, basically reversing the origin of original Hobgoblin
To be entirely fair, a similar-but-not-identical brother body double *is* a pretty stupid idea. I think Fisk is the most interesting option. Fisk as the Rose makes you wonder why he's not just openly working for his father in a better role. As hobgoblin, it could be a coup.
Introduce the Rose make that the brother(provided he looks like a his own character) and have Hobgoblin be Kingsley as a way to help his brother take over the King Pin's orginazation the serum is their plan to take out the Kingpin. it would even explain why Fisk wants Spiderman to deal with the Hobgoblin he can deny involvement with the brother and maybe win him back. Once his brother is in charge Kingsley can have his brother handle the crime side of his business dealings keeping the company name clear. Manipulating his brother into minimizing the risk to himself an establshed Hobgoblin trait.
That would be my ideal solution (fanfic) because I hate the lookalike sibling trope it is very common in old mystery novels and it never feels satisfying who knows if Defalco would have signed on. And maybe the brother would have been like the animatronic a one issue fake out it might have worked then. Regardless, of the canidates mentioned as the identity I do think Richard Fisk works the best with what was already in the story.
As much as I like Stern's comics it is difficult to believe many people liked his brothers' idea.
You can see why he did so he could give away red herrings and misdirect from Kingsley but damn if it isn't difficult to swallow.
It is such a golden age concept. Right there with Superman glasses that you only accept because it is established lore but, in this case, it was bronze age and comics had moved slightly away from the more campy aspects ( or used them ironically ).
As someone who read Web of Spider-Man #30, the origin of the The Rose in that issue is explained so well that it really hooked me. He was a villain with a genuine, scary grudge against his father.
Now that would be a good new Hobgoblin story.....
@@danieljeyn9847 Web #29-30 had some of their own problems. They're trying to sell Ned* and Richard as anti-heroes when they were total thugs while written by Stern and DeFalco. Well, at least it's not Venom becoming a good guy.
* "Ned" being Roderick Kingsley during Stern's run.
Are you saying The Big Wheel isn't an absolute icon? Disliked, unsubbed, reported, blocked, and doxxed, no one disrespects Big Wheel.
What a complete fustercluck. It's a shame, as I adore the idea of having a supervillain with a secret identity.
I loved Hobgoblin as a kid, but it was frustrating how a lot of his stories ended up anticlimactically...I liked Carrion, too. Hope the MCU can find room for both
In Priest's defense, Spider-Man Vs Wolverine is an outstanding book! (With a terrible title...) Oddly, teaming up these two served well to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of both, and seeing Spider-Man out of his element in a Cold War KGB thriller challenged the character in ways I don't feel many others have replicated. I had no idea the writer was so young!
Thanks for the deep dive! I knew a lot of this, but also had a lot of inaccurate information. The full story is excessively complicated but equally fascinating. Imagine being 22 and getting asked to edit Spider-Man...
Oh it's a great story. The big problem is that there was no real need within the story itself to kill off Ned - any random Bugle reporter could have fulfilled that role. And so it became notorious for its contributions to the continuity mess rather than its own merits.
Oh, I enjoyed Spider-Man vs Wolverine - I thought it was a great story even despite the complications required by the Ned Leeds matter.
Marvel then did one of the best What If stories about what if Spidey stayed in East Germany afterwards (something to do with the sister of Wolverine's friend) and eventually became a black ops operative with Wolverine. It demonstrates that Spidey never really used his abilities to their greatest potential. In this story, he does.
@@timrollpickering I 100% agree, and if you're going to kill off a fairly major or even regular character, it needs to be in the series itself, not a separate special. If you want to kill off Ned Leeds or any regular character then tell the same Spider-Man/Wolverine story in one of the regular monthly series for Spider-Man, where you can feel it has more of an impact. Even then though it should be a longer running villain story line. Like Gwen being killed by The Green Goblin rather than in some new story with a one off villain.
@@Logan_Baron I like the idea of doing something important in a "special". It gives the sense that there is an actual reason for the book to exist in the first place. Marvel Annuals were once a fun doublesized story and then in the tail end of the 80s they seemed to take on more of a house cleaning where a bunch of random ideas that weren't fleshed out but were thrown together to fill a book, using artists that basically seemed like they were "trying out" and doing a poor job of it. Then tack on a story that flows through all the annuals in order to try and sucker people with a half baked cross over (Evolutionary War 1988, Atlantis Attacks 1989) Poor quality in large portions.
Priest is a hell of a writer, top talent but yeah he was pretty young
A lot of inconsistencies and a lack of fun drove me away from Spider-man books at some point. It was Hobgoblin Lives that brought me back to the webhead. There was a lot of behind the scene vindictive behavior revolving around the bigger sellers for Marvel in the mid to late 80s. It's wild hearing the reasons behind our childhood comic story confusions turning out to just being one or two persons' ego forcing a change based on spite.
Keep up the good work.
The Hobgoblin idea could be given justice in Spider-Man 4 with Ned reverse-engineering the leftover tech from Defoe's Green Goblin, Roderick designing the suit, introducing characters like Harry Osborn to mislead the audience and the actual Hobgoblin being a surprise character like Liz Toomes, for example, exacting revenge on Spider-Man for putting her dad in jail.
Not a bad idea.
The Liz thing feels like a retread of Taskmaster we just had.
Whats left of the Goblin tech is the glider I guess. No chunk of armor
@@JoeChillton not necessarily, the Taskmaster angle was poorly handled at least with Liz theirs reason for her hate Spider-Man as opposed to being used as a pawn by a vengeful parent.
No need for that, Ned is perfectly fine being Hobgoblin.
Plus, from what we’ve seen of Liz in Homecoming, It’s safe to say she wouldn’t be the type of person to take revenge.
That....could work......
Wow, I totally remember reading this run as a kid when it came out. I thought the reveal of the Hobgoblin's identity was a bit weak, too. Thanks for bringing back a memory of a simpler time, when my friends and I would head into town to our favorite shop and read all our new comics on the train on the way home. To think back on how much we complained when the price rose from 60 to 75 cents - LOL !!
I think Roger Stern is a great comicbook writer. His work on Amazing Spider-Man and The Avengers are some of my favorite comics. I’m glad Roger Stern got to tell the story of the Hobgoblin’s true identity in the Hobgoblin Lives miniseries in the 90s.
I just finished re-reading the entire ASM run from Amazing Fantasy 15 to the final issue of Ryan Ottley and Nick Spencer's run and Roger Stern's run really stood out. He's definitely my favorite Spidey writer.
@@D_Fyre I'm planning on doing this soon, how long did it take to read?
@Ryan Wilson It took me about a year. I started in March of 2020 and finished around the same time 2021. I did take a couple month long breaks here and there because I would get burnt out sometimes. It was usually during the less interesting runs.
Yes, I only read Amazing and the annuals and I only read any non-Amazing titles that were essential tie-in issues like The Other.
I have some single issue gaps in the late 90s/early 2000s runs after the first reboot (when volume 2 started), so maybe that's why I feel the way I do about that time period, but I would say you could skip that first run by Howard Mackie. It's so different from what came right before it - art and writing - and it's really not as interesting. The stories are so much less personal and less mature. If you skip it, the following run is the J Michael Straczynski run, which is one of my favorites.
Also his way too short run with John Byrne & Joe Rubinstein inking on Capt.A.
@@CardCaptorDeadpool with two to three month-long breaks here and there, it took me a year.
Chris.. At first, I thought that Lance Bannon was the Hobgoblin, and then Ned Leeds. It was finally revealed to be Roderick Kingsley. It just goes to show that it's usually the last person you expect!
I always liked him more than Green Goblin. I thought he just looked cooler.
Same
Cooler looking, saner, had an RV covered with guns one time. Overall I just liked him. And the idea of finding bunkers full of loot and going wild with it is great.
Yeah, I loved the Hobgoblin!!!! I have to admit there was a big hole when Ned was revealed to be the Hobgoblin!!!!! If he was as strong as Spider-Man, I doubt he could be taken down as easily as he was!!!! Even with trained assassins, he had weapons and super strength, I sure he would have at least taken one or two guys with him, and I doubt he would of had his arm broken that easily!!!!
Hobgoblin was always my favorite Spiderman villain. The covers where he's just an orange hood with glowing eyes are simply iconic
I prefer the Kingsley/Stern version and I think he could've been a major player (what Norman Osborn has become) if Stern was allowed to add layers to Kingsley and reveal him. Other than Ned Leeds reveal, I still enjoyed Macendale and his failed attempts to live up the mantle, including selling his soul. I am surprised you didn't mention the animated series version. Slott did attempt to return him to his Stern roots.
Hobgoblin is my favorite Spidey villain, I love the concept of some criminal taking the mantle of another but better yet adding their own spin to the formula! I also love his costume and the color scheme and he has a very expressive face mask too, with those red eyes he just has a menace that Gobby didn’t have originally.
Man, mysteries in Spider-Man stories are always a mess except for Green Goblin, even today with Kindred it got convoluted, for other reasons. It's better to keep it simple and not drag it out and overstay its welcome
Even Green Goblin was a BIG disagreement between Lee and Ditko.
Green Goblin started the trend of behind the scenes issues interfering with a major villain's identity reveal.
Lived through this whole thing and Hobby was my second favorite villain ever (Green Goblin was my fav) and I didn't realize the amount of chaos that was going on behind the scenes. Thanks for the whole story! And ya, up until Gang Wars - Spidey Wolverine .. Hobgoblin was amazing.
The Hobgoblins identity should've never been reviled. It should still be a mystery to this day.
"Maybe Hobgoblin's not out there. Maybe he's in here: the human heart."
Back in the mid-90s, I wrote and drew a little feature for Wizard magazine, the monthly Superhero Calendar. In it, different points in comics history were commemorated or parodied as having taken place in such-and-such a year on the month featured on the calendar. The cartoon about the reveal of Roderick Kingsley as the Hobgoblin showed Kingsley unmasked with Spidey walking away in disbelief, saying, "Hunh-uh! Nope! I don't buy it!" I could only envision Roderick Kingsley as the spoiled and furtive fashion designer I remembered from Spectacular Spider-man. I was never able to see him as the Hobgoblin, even after that final unmasking.
i'm not nearly old enough to have experienced the hobgoblin saga when it came out, however in my childhood i used to buy old comics from the used bookstore, the mystery of the hobgoblin really intrigued me and he actually used to be my favorite villain at that time, too bad it fell flat on its face, i barely think about hobgoblin when i read spider-man comics nowadays
My only experience with Hobgoblin is through encylopedias and books condensing Marvel history rather than the real issues, so I always thought it weird that there were so many fake Hobgoblins and that his true identity seemed kinda convoluted. I always thought that was done on purpose, but now I know the truth of the matter and my opinion of Hobgoblin is improved for it.
Same, I always thought that was weird. It was like there was more discussion on all the fakes than the real one.
@intergalactic92 Which is bad for readers, but probably exactly how Roderick Kingsley wants it, heh heh!
Interesting stuff, makes me wonder what Hobgoblin stories could of been told if it weren't for the behind the scenes drama interfering. Honestly though I never have read through his comic book appearances, just absolutely loved him in the 90's animated Spiderman series, his look, his attitude and with exact same voice as Joker from the Batman animated series, thank you Mark Hamill 😂👍
This video was enthralling. Getting this glimpse behind the scenes of this long running book, and seeing the pety motivations that surrounded Goblin's reveal was insane. Really makes you wonder what other stories got ruined because of feuds and egos...
I enjoyed this history on the character a lot. As you alluded to, it's interesting what work came out of amazing Spider-Man immediately after this. Kraven's last hunt right after and then the Michellini and McFarlane run.
I remember a recent McFarlane documentary, he said that everybody warned him to stay away from the Spider-Man office before he went and demanded to be made the artist. I suspect this drama was what they were referring to!
I was really into those comics at the time and I thought it was terribly disappointing that the Hobgoblin was somebody who had already been killed before his identity was revealed, and even more disappointing that this incredibly competent and powerful supervillain had been taken down by some common mooks, and most disappointing of all was that the Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds of all people. It just made no sense.
Roger Stern was great. His run on The Avengers in the 80s was so memorable.
I remember reading these issues and how frustrated I was with the reveal and death of the Hobgoblin. I boycotted the titled and wrote a scathing letter to the editors. Until the Rami Spiderman film came out I never picked up another spiderman title.
Roderick Kingsley is among my favorite Spiderman Villains and story arcs. Took almost two decades to unmask him. And that original Romita Jr run with the BattleVan which was immediately just before he got the Symbiotic Costume. Muah! Chef’s Kiss!
I got all these issues via mail subscription. Yes, I’m old. 😀 Hard to exaggerate how hot the hobgoblin was, and how awful the identity reveal was.
I did too! As I recall, I had split the cost with my brother so i could get Spiderman and X-Men, while he took GI Joe and one other title that escapes me. Remember: the more you buy, the more you save!
What I love the most about Roderick Kingsley is the recent comics where he just schooled Ben Ulrich, the two of them fought so much and Roderick beat Phil EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
During AXIS he even stops for a brief moment to take a selfie with a group of kids just to rub it in how much better he is.
It’s always a good day when I see a Comic Tropes upload
Woah dude you look strikingly like Willem Dafoe in your profile pic 😮
Bro has lost so much weight that his character isn't accurate anymore
My introduction to Hobgoblin was the 90s animated series, Hobgoblin always seemed so deranged, I loved him.
I remember loving Hobgoblin as an adversary of Spidey’s and the artwork at the time was cool. When his alter-ego was exposed I was like “really?!”
It’s funny how controversial Goblin mysteries end up being off the page. While it’s now been somewhat debunked, for the longest time we believed Green Goblin’s secret led to Ditko leaving Marvel. Hobgoblin caused several problems as we see. The more recent “Sins Past”, while not nearly as revered as those two, was definitely controversial and ill-received.
And don't forget the debacle with Goblin 2099. Peter David had been setting up a reveal when he and a load of other 2099 creators all quit at the same time in solidarity with a sacked editor. He wrote one final issue under the new editor to wrap up as much as he could including revealing the Goblin's identity... only for a speech bubble to be added afterwards that completely switched it. He only learned about this when reading Usenet when the issue was published and was more than a little angry. (Later on a one-shot undid some of the mess.)
Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, I wonder why? Mm. Who wrote the book of fu-
I'm surprised at how persistent the rumor was that Ditko left over the Green Goblin identity. In retrospect, it's pretty obvious from Norman Osborn's early appearances as Strom's partner that Ditko always intended for Osborn to be the Goblin.
@@daviddalrymple2284 Well that was only two issues before the reveal and Ditko's penultimate. Prior to that Osborn was just a background character with the distinctive hairstyle seen at Jonah's club.
Ditko's last two issues have some contradictory clues - there are hints that Spider-Man has only just become a problem for Osborn and also that a conflict with Ned Leeds was building to a climax (for a long time a low level rumour stated Ditko wanted Leeds to be the Green Goblin). Ditko's refusal to give interviews for the next 52 years (and his essays were not widely distributed) and Lee's poor memory meant that clear denials were hard to come by.
I pray the Hobgoblin gets more respect in the mainstream. I've grown a greater appreciation for the more underrated, lesser utilized characters in comics, and Hobgoblin is definitely in there. People see him as the poor man's Green Goblin, but as you said, he's far different from him in spite of the similar theme. He's the mobster, and a crime boss, and I hope that gets taken advantage of in later stories to show why he has the capacity to be a top tier Spider-Man villain in people's eyes.
this is so similar to Nick Spencer's run. he also wanted to move his story faster but was stopped by editors trying to impose rules on him
ah yes the old Christmas story: The Grinch that ruined the Hobgoblin
Wow. Such a good episode. Hobgoblin was definitely my favourite Spidey villain growing up. That cover with Spidey holding his mask out of the water… burned into my brain.
Fun fact: The Brazilian portuguese name for the character is "Macabre Elf" (Duende Macabro). I absolutely love this name.
Actually very cool, it just doesn't roll off the tongue in english.
Hobgoblin was always one of my favorite villains, he was just such an interesting character with a cool design and i loved all his gadgets.
Ah, this is just great. I still have #245, #250, #251, and the issues that featured The Rose and Jack O'lantern in an ole box of comics from that era. Literally remember scribbling Spidey v. Hobby action doodles before school while Gran pestered about me getting around to reading the copy of Jaws she bought at Zellers. The memories! Oh, the memories!
I honestly feel like that the mysterious and illusive version of Hobgoblin could still be executed well today, especially given the benefit of hindsight as a means of avoiding the editorial pitfalls. Now a days I think Spidy could use a more methodical and calculative villain to really give him a challenge.
I hope they do that if they bring him into Tom Holland's Spider-Man. The idea of it being MCU's Ned is awful imo
I actually like the idea of Hobgoblin being Richard Fisk. The Kingpin who is a reserved and level headed crime boss losing his son to the wave of masked super villians would have be an interesting development, particularly THE face of masked villians in New York.
Hobgoblin was the first Spiderman villain I ever saw, so he'll always be one of my favourites.
Boy was this a mess filled with toxic editors. I feel like it would’ve been better and more simple if Hobgoblin’s identity was just either Richard Fisk or Roderick Kingsley. It’s a real shame because at the time Hobgoblin seemed to be real promising Villain different from Green Goblin.
I love the Hobgoblin. But when he gets killed pretty easy then that was just ridiculous. I'm glad Roger Stern got the chance to fix it.
It really is sad to think that simply writing a villain for a beloved character like Spider-Man ended up causing so much chaos among people and their friendships. I know it is more common than most people think in these types of workplaces, but that is still pretty said to think about.
I also love how in the writing column at 25:57, some of the answers were basically the written equivalent of troll comments. Seriously, one of them said it was going to be J. Jonah Jameson, which could have actually been real and I would love a multiversal Hobgoblin that was secretly Jameson, and the other said "Hobgoblin is obviously the mummified clone of Dr. Bart Hamilton's son's old girlfriend, who was killed by an allergic reaction to jet glider exhaust fumes." Someone should have gave that guy a medal for that Mat Pat level theory!
Amazing timing, I just read Hobgoblin Lives last week and wasn’t aware of this drama for the original story. True, Ned Leeds was never a good fit for Hobgoblin. Maybe they should have gone with Fisk for Hobgoblin and Roderick for Rose, seems like a better fit for them.
Just saw Spider-Man: No Way Home and was feeling nostalgic for the iconic Green Goblin, so it was really cool to learn about Hobgoblin through this, never knew about their backstory!! So complicated lol
Spoilers bro
@@poopikins my apologies, but he's featured in the trailer multiple times so it's not really a spoiler lol.
@@turnipboys Still, not everyone watches the trailer. They don't want any spoilers. Too many trailers spoil the entire movie
@@poopikins I totally respect that, as I also prefer not to watch trailers, but he's also featured in almost all of the posters, including the banner on the No Way Home Letterboxd page (lol). I would imagine most dedicated Marvel fans that go to that extent have likely already seen it. Still, I'll keep that in mind for future comments.
@@turnipboys Oh I didn't know lol I've been avoiding everything myself.
Edit: I just saw the movie btw. Just looking out for others
I was also checking up on the Hobgoblin backstory after seein S:NWH this weekend, as the jokes about Ned and turning evil triggered my memory of his comic book counterpart. I found the Owsley-Priest blog post and it was a fascinating read. Even if you can't trust everything he writes (and he says himself he is writing from his perspective) it is a very open and honest story about being put into a manager position too young and at too dysfunctional a company. He was indeed set up to fail and I can undertand he lashed out, even if it was self-destructive. It makes me angry that they put him through that and that it soured his love of comics. Hobgoblin is certainly a cursed character.
If Priest being set to fail was the reason he was petty, then why was the fact he was petty the reason he failed? On one hand, he holds a writers' retreat, on the other he gets a book published he doesn't tell any of those writers about.
Go on, get angry over... what he did? To himself? What?
Didn't he do a run on Black Panther years later? Also, who in the name of God thought that putting a 22 year old, just out of college person over industry veterans who've worked for years at their jobs was a good idea?! Someone in executive management was smoking something incredibly strong!
@@crapshot321 The answer to all of this is, Jim Shooter, which can honestly be a fascinating video on its own
@@crapshot321 A good bit of wisdom I gained long ago that I tell to a lot of young people is: "Never, ever apply to be a supervisor as your first position in a company."
Just think about it for a moment. What's supposed to happen is that they promote someone in the company to be a supervisor. If they just hire someone to be a supervisor from outside the company, it means that they don't think anyone in the company is competent enough to be a supervisor, or no one wants to be a supervisor. Both of those are bad signs.
But, more importantly, if the young guy that no one has experience working with is suddenly put in charge of employees who have been working in the company for years, those people aren't going to be happy, and they will likely be petty about their dislike of you. You'll be facing an uphill battle, so you need to be very competent and confident.
It's almost always better to start in another role in the company and work your way up, instead.
@@crapshot321 Priest has done tons of incredible runs over the years since. probably one of the best writers in the 2000's, at least.
I remember reading reruns of the hobgoblin series when I was 10 and the mystery had me immediately hooked. I have always had a serious soft spot for Hobgoblin, as it was very rare for me to see a villain who might actually be able to beat Spiderman.
I was getting Spidey from this era the true identity of the Hobgoblin was massive, discussion about it ran in the letters pages for years. And a shout out to Ron Frenz who was an amazing Spider-Man artist.
Stern got me into Spiderman, and they're still my favourite books to go back to.
I love your videos, Chris. This was a wonderful deep dive into Hobgoblin and Marvel behind the scene.
...But PLEASE adjust the focus of your camera. Your last two videos you've been slightly out of focus and slightly distracting.
Anyway, amazing stuff as always. My gf and I are avid watchers. ❤
Hobgoblin is my favorite Goblin, my first introduction to Spider-Man was the 90's animated series and the Hobgoblin was the coolest thing I had seen at the time. When I finally read the comics I was surprised to see that the Green Goblin came first and was always more popular and as I grew up I saw that no one really cared about Hobgoblin and so many people thought he sucked which made me appreciate the cartoon even more with their idea to have Hobgoblin be the first goblin.
My dream is to have a live-action Spider-Man show with the same tone as the Netflix Daredevil and revisit the Hobgoblin, keep him in the shadows and bring back the evil and manipulative mastermind who pulls the strings like he originally was in the comics before his downfall. His first appearance in comics with him slowly creeping out of the darkness to reveal himself is the truest and purest essence of the character and that is what the tv show would focus on. Of course, that's never going to happen because Hobgoblin has fallen out of popularity and everyone sees him as a two but villain not worth the attention anymore which sucks hard.
Possible Christmas drinking game: take a sip every time Chris says 'hobgoblin.'
I started reading Spider Man midway through this story, I remember being intrigued by the mystery, and baffled by the reveal. I loved using the Hobgonlin in the Marvel Superhero RPG by TSR and giving him a new identity. Chris have you even considered doing an episode on the rpg?
Thar Hobgoblin Lives mini series had astounding art by Ron Frenz! I remember picking up issue 1 and being rocked by how cool the art looked. Also worth mentioning, the following storyline “Goblins at the gate” was pretty good too!
Never heard of this channel before, but I'm a huge Spider-man fan and definitely appreciate learning about the behind the scenes drama that led to such a promising character being let down by a lackluster reveal that came out of nowhere. You've earned a subscriber today.
What a great presentation. It took me right back to my childhood - i remember all those covers.
What strikes me the most, is the chaotic or incompetent contribution of Marvel editor Jim Owsley. Not only did he (maliciously?) screw up years of great comic writing, but he went on to create further chaos by naming himself 'Christopher Priest', the same name used by a well-established British science fiction writer (he wrote The Prestige, among many other great books and had been published since the 70s). So yet another creator's life had been made difficult by this careless individual.
this is what I love about this channel. really digs into "behind the bullpen" aspects of these stories.
Stern’s Juggernaut story line hooked me on Spider-man and I didn’t miss another of his issues. After watching this video, DeFalco’s plan for Kingsley to be the Rose and Richard Fisk to be the Hobgoblin would have been the way to go.
I just discovered this channel this week and its easily one of my favorites on this site!
I LIKED all the maneuvering around that eventually led back to Kingsley it made him all the more devious in the end. Then again I really like complicated continuity puzzles from both in and out of universe perspectives. To a point.
Merry Christmas! I began collecting monthly with ASM #251, then 250. I had great fun, collecting the 1983 issues. I can attest you could feel something lost in the quality of the stores afterwards- kind of a lesson in dashed expectations in something you still want to love. Good point about the recurrent terrific art! For a couple of years in that golden age of reading, Hobby was my favorite villain all the same. No wonder they opted to extend the mystery so long.I was long looking for a thrill like those first months, finally gifted with a modest allowance and Len's Kwik Shop in walking distance! Secret Wars, Marvel Team Up and the Master Planner arc in Tales. This was what triggered years of reading, brought me back many times, even, in 1995-7, my new (and still!) wife reading right beside me.
This reminds me how exciting Todd McFarlane's time was- and the 6 issue Kraven's Last Hunt. It had been a lull as the logic evaporated in the main title and we got another Pete wants to Quit subplot. Frenz was really good, though. And yeah, that one shot was awesome 👌 As a commenter mentions, Ned is murdered, but the reveal's in #289.
There's a Hobgoblin appearance in Spectacular during the first year, too, though the 3 arcs in ASM are essential.
To sum up the original Hobgoblin story: And then it explodes.
It always bugs me when I hear "fans" get all geeked about the MCU Spidey films hoping that Ned Leeds becomes Hobgoblin. Even a line in No Way Home alludes to Peter's best friend Harry turning to the dark side with the hint MCU Peter's Best bud could follow suit. Why good natured fans want one of the most controversial and convoluted storyline reveals as a result of in-house fighting is beyond me. I have no problem if Hobgoblin is in the MCU (I'd prefer the demonic Hobgoblin myself) that could frame Ned and/or Flash....or that the identity remained a mystery in a film.
You can easily make a very cool mystery-type movie when you introduce Macendale, Kingsley and Donovan and make Spidey trying to figure out which one of them is the Gobby. You can really play with many faces of the characters making one of them (or all of them) Hobgoblins. Again, some stories just need to be rewritten and given a second chance. Yes, you are right about in-fighting, but taking the story born in such
tumultuous times and turn the premise on its head could really be something else.
definitely keep the identity a secret if he shows up which I hope is eventually
I mean, No Way Home adapted elements from the One More Day story which is one of the most controversial Spidey stories ever. I think people like seeing bad comic plots get converted into good movies. I definitely enjoyed Ultimate Spider-man's take on the Clone Saga for how awesome and concise it was in contrast to the original.
At least Ned is already an established character in the MCU. Could you imagine a fashion designer suddenly showing up for one movie to be a green goblin clone? People would think that’s fucking stupid.
@@billymanziel5666 Who said if Kingsley were introduced in the MCU he would *have* to be a fashion designer?
This was a great breakdown of the behind the scenes events that changed the Hobgoblin storyline. The only thing I would say is that at the beginning, when you were describing the state of affairs with the Amazing Spider-Man book not doing as well, the black suit had not yet been introduced. Otherwise, this was good stuff.
Thank you for making this, my first comic I bought was the Ned Leeds reveal Amazing 289 and bought all the prior comics with Hobgoblin and followed him through the Jason Macendale era. This video helped answer a lot of questions I had as a kid growing up reading issues with Hobgoglin.
I have a question?? Where the hell was Editor-in-chief Jim Shooter in all this?? creators complained the he ran a tight ship creatively during those years.
I think this was right around the time that Jim Shooter was fired. He spent most of 1986 working on the New Universe, and then he was fired in early 1987, shortly after a change in the ownership of Marvel.
Sterns Hobgoblin is one of the best. It’s awesome they gave him a chance to redeem him in the mini series and then in SSM 259-261 Goblins at the Gate story arc he gets one over on Norman Osborn and retires to the Caribbean. Roderick>Norman
I didn’t stick around to see what Slott eventually did with him though…
Had him set up other villain identities by going under the masks of dead/retired z-list costumed thugs and re-building their rep, then selling their identities. Was actually a cool gimmick. During some stupid event where everone had one axis of their morality flipped he was doing it for dead hero identities and then Urich gathered the villains he'd abandoned and they attacked him and the rookie heroes. It's been ages but I think too many of the hero trainees died for my liking and I wasn't really sure what the motive was for the Villains to hunt Kingsley, I would think they'd be glad that he can't take their blood money anymore, unless they were worried he'd sell their identities to the cops?
DIEGhostfish That doesn’t sound bad. I remember being pissed when Urich killed “him” and took over the mantle. Then Kingsley coming back. Soon after I stopped buying new books
Pettiness and sabotage aside, I think it's really funny that while working at a comic book company, someone could just casually say something like, "Hey, we're heading out to lunch to discuss who the Hobgoblin is."
Despite the focus issues on this video and the last, the lighting setup on this video and the last is the best you've had. If you keep this lighting, fix the focus and stick with a shallow depth of field your next video could look really slick!
I've loved your work for years, thanks for the videos!
I know you've been talking about getting a new camera to fix the blur issue, but I'm positive your current one can be fixed, whether professionally or by yourself. Some at home solutions include cleaning the lens, cleaning the internals, or compensating for whatever is out of alignment via manually focusing.
ua-cam.com/video/9ExCG1GJku4/v-deo.html
I obviously don't have the full context of these stories at the time, but to me all options for the reveal seem bad, after building up the mystery so much revealing that the hobgobling was an existing uninteresting minor villain just using a different costume seems like it would have been underwhelming, ned seems like the least bad choice, being a character close to Peter would mean that the much delayed reveal would actually have impact, it just needed to be properly set up.
So happy UA-cam decided to recommend this video to me! I've been binge watching your comic book videos the past few days and it's been so awesome. Thank you for the great content!
I was just old enough to read this story line in its entirety. I was only 3 in 1981 but I can remember buying Amazing #238 (I remember using the tattoo packed in the book) . It was a blast reading these as they came out but even as a young reader I thought the Ned Leeds reveal fell flat. (I read the reveal in issue #289) I only was able to buy on newsstands so it took a while to get my hands on Spider-Man vs Wolverine and that book was so good and would have been excellent as a stand alone story except for the Ned Leeds part that was jammed in there. This explains so much.
Back then I thought for sure Lance Bannon was the Hobgoblin.
I thought it made sense that Peter's photographer rival would be the one to find a "Goblin Stash"
They swerved us and then just a few issues later they did the rival newspaper employee turned villain with Eddie Brock (Venom) but Brock was never introduced until Venom appeared and his back story was given and nothing was done with Lance Bannon.
There's a LOT of NEW info about Lee, Ditko and The Green Goblin available which debunks what fans speculated and circulated ad nauseum until Steve Ditko himself started commenting in various articles!! As for Hobgoblin imploding, I think it had more to do with the return of Norman Osborn than anything else! Kingsley looks pretty puny compared to Osborn, imo!
@Black-Handed_Ice_ Gwiazda Some of it is covered in that large STEVE DITKO book that was published around 2008 based on a few letters and articles Ditko himself put out. Basically, all the various speculations were just that,speculation! According to one afticle, Stan Lee conceived a plot where they would film a movie, find an ancient sarcophagus and out would emerge The Green Goblin! Ditko said he changed most of it singlehandedly because he thought it waa too fantastic a concept for SPIDER-MAN! Since he began taking over most of the plotting, Steve asked for a co- plotter credit and got it! Finally, and this is not an exact quote but it went something like: "....Stan didn't know what was in my plots until Sol Brodsky took the art from me; from issue 24(?) Up to my final issues! So there couldn't have been any agreements, disagreements about The Green Goblin!" He even mentioned planting a character who would be close to Peter! In other words, Norman Osborn was ALWAYS The Goblin, not something Stan Lee cooked up!
If nothing else, Hobgoblin Lives is an EXCELLENT read. Shame of the situation it took to get us there, but still a great story, none the less.
The Hobgoblin I grew up reading was Phil Urich from Slott’s run which had a fun dynamic where the readers knew his identity but the other characters didn’t. He also had a lot of new gadgets which further separated him from Green Goblin. A shame about the original Kingsley Hobgoblin but I am happy Stern eventually got to reveal the identity properly and put the whole issue to bed. A funny fallout from this whole thing is all the confusion online about the Hobgoblin’s identity has led to a lot of news sites incorrectly speculating that Ned Leeds in the MCU is going to wind up being Hobgoblin.
Agreed. Ned is way too goofy and in no way brings the charisma and mastermind qualities of the original Hobgoblin.
I liked what Slott did there. Phil really came off like an evil mirror version of Peter Parker: A photographer supporting himself by selling photos of his costumed identity while making his uncle proud, but the guy is an unapologetic villain.
Looking back, there was always been a problem with Hobgoblin from the beginning. He was all about the mystery. He had no personal stake with Spider-Man, nor was he the type to let simple revenge cloud his judgement. He didn't engage in unprofitable fights. If Stern had made the original reveal as Kingsley, I think it would have been a collective shrug. He was some guy Mary Jane worked for sometimes. In reality, he was more a rival to the Kingpin than Spider-Man.
This is very well thought out. I can always tell when someone's about the same age as me with how they speak about these storylines. You can tell who was in the moment and who has simply just reviewed it years later.
Having said that I agree with you the mystery was exciting he was so much smarter than everybody else that Kinsley would have definitely got a collective shrug. At that point in time I don't think anybody really knew or cared about Kinsley to where it would have made any impact. I've tried to think about this with who would have been a good choice for the identity.... I do think in retrospect if it had been kingpin's son it would have led to some pretty strong storylines and believeability. All the other people would have got a collective shrug as well. I also think that maybe it should have never been revealed making that the biggest thing. A constant conversation piece would have been what made the character more special. At the end of the day I am of the same school of thought... I thought Stearns writing was fantastic and riveting from issue to issue and the strongest it had been in the Spider-Man comics.. since the early to mid 70s with the fallout from the death of Gwen and the Goblin. The comic struggled for many years with stories after that and seemed a bit lost with where to go, in my opinion.
The innocence of the character being a simple comic strip of fun and carefree capturing bad guys dealing with teenage years issues. The death of Gwen and the Goblin was the end of the innocence of spiderman. It was now grown up with real life and death and remorse front and center. Which is why I think it was never the same and lost for so many years after that. Life forces us to all grow up sometime including Spiderman.
This led to what I figured all the junk behind the scenes with sales dropping and trying to create a Corp approach...the wow factor and a buzz moment. Thus the secret wars( which I knew even as a kid at the time was a major mistake and seemed obvious of the desperation of it all.
The whole secret wars led to comics never being the same. The whole symbiote suit with not just Spider-Man but also spiderwoman which tends to be forgotten...at the time feel like they kind of accidentally tripped upon the suit having the reaction it got. Thus The character of venom was kind of an accident as well that became something else. I've always put Spider-Man fans into two categories pre venom and post venom. It ended for me when the venom thing kicked in. Whether it was just simply getting older and losing interest or it was so obvious that the writing was all over the place and adding web of there were just too many titles and too many storylines going on where it seemed like a complete mess that I no longer wanted to invest My time into them.
Results? Pure disappointment with what could have been.