Bill Mantlo: Micronauts, ROM, Hulk... Plagiarism?
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- Опубліковано 22 січ 2022
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Writer Bill Mantlo is well known for his breezy but authentic writing style. He's written nearly every major character for Marvel. Mantlo guided titles like Micronauts, ROM: Spaceknight, and The Incredible Hulk for 5 year long runs. He helped make licensed properties like Micronauts and ROM viable, paving the way for books like GI Joe and Transformers. He's also been accused of plagiarism, stealing plots. This video looks at his writing style, work history, and analyzes the accusations to determine if they are each true or not. - Розваги
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Great Stuff!
I liked your version of this ad
That's unfortunate about the diagnosis, Chris. I became very mindful of my sugar intake a couple years ago because of a small scare. It's great to see you can still enjoy all the sweet tastes of breakfast cereals again.
that's a good sponsorship! And now I'm legit gonna order some magic spoon
camera focus has been wrong in recent videos
Spider-man revealing his identity and salvaging a woman's sanity is very bold for its time. Mantlo could have written a plot convenience to solve the situation, but he took the high road. Props
Damn right. One of the best moments for Parker's character, and sadly almost forgotten these days.
Lay good pipe. Dont gaslight
What issue was this?
@@richmcgee434
There was a scene in the Amazing Spider-Man film where Peter gives his mask to a little kid.
@@fishin4bass2002 Peter Parker (Vol. 1) #87
Hearing about what happened to Bill Mantlo never fails to make me cry, just a little bit. Horrible thing.
I’m teary right now
@@br0wneyedsusan I am as well. Never fails. The guy’s stories have brought me so much joy over the years from legion of monsters right through to Peter Parker, hulk, etc. What a sadness. One cool dude.
so sad to hear
Immediately after the accident, Mantlo was in a coma for a few weeks, so him being conscious now is a small improvement?? Also after the Guardians of the Galaxy movies and Cloak and Dagger TV show, Marvel bought him a house and a live in nurse, so that's another improvement for him
Thanks for the update on Bill's situation. Sending positive vibes, hopefully he's doing well and is happy and content.
Here's hoping he'll get by a bit better.
Oh that's good to hear. I know how difficult it is in the US to get proper longterm care.
Really glad to hear Bill Mantlo is been taken care of and has a decent place to live such a shame what happened to him i offen wonder what the driver who caused his accident if still alive feels about what they had done.
This is how Mantlo's brother and guardian Michael described the injury: "Bill is, and has been, trapped in a world of confusion and despair since his accident. The cognitive deficits he suffered have left him unable to reason or understand his situation, and he struggles daily to maintain any control over his own mind. For someone with his intellect and imagination, this was the absolute worst type of injury that could ever have happened to him."
... So... yeah.
I was a huge fan of his Rom run. It was horrible and tragic to see what has happened to him. Thank you for this overview.
What happened to Rom? My parents told me he went to live on a big farm with lots of other Roms to play with
@@salvagemonster3612 I think he's referring to what happened to Bill Mantlo, which is tragic.
romspaceknightart.blogspot.com/
'You ripped me off. Give me credit and free comics for life.' That's goddamn adorable.
Glad you're getting sponsorships in order to support your passion of comics analysis 👍
I'm just glad Chris isnt still eating that awful American sugary cereal.
And he actually shows the cereal and eats it. Might try it now.
@RighteousBrother You're a bot
@@mandelabutterfly9162 You're a bot too
I REALLY wish that Marvel could get the licensing rights back to Micronauts and ROM just long enough to publish a set of Omnibuses for us.
With all the talk of a "hasbro verse", doesn't it seem like they should have just had marvel handle it? Look how much they helped build transformers and GI Joe let alone micronauts and ROM.
@@krantzbucks Not likely at all. I know Hasbro is planning a Micronauts movie from Paramount. One of the executive producers I think stated, if fans are expecting anything like the Marvel comics, they will be disappointed. Still what they are going to do is cool. In other words, it is going to suck. It will likely resemble the Transformers and G.I. Joe movies, which Paramount also did. Popcorn movies, that begins and ends in the show without much story telling.
Just wait until Disney buys Hasbro.
Disney, until all are One.
@@jonathangoodman9089 I am not sure I am 'for' this idea -- but given enough time all things will be consumed by Disney! :)
@@alanguages IDW is losing the Hasbro licenses at the end of the year. Marvel getting a shot at ROM, just to republish, is more possible than you think.
Just gotta say that Chris is simply the best comic-book covering channel. There’s nobody else that authentically knows what they cover like him!
Agreed. No bullshit or pandering too
Way about Cartoonist Kayfabe? Jim Rugg and Ed Piskor seem to authentically know what they are talking about. I mean they're both close to 15 years in the industry and celebrated indie cartoonists too...
Rob from comics explained is better.
What a tragic fate for an intelligent, hard-working person. That aside I had never really heard of Micronauts or ROM, gonna check them out.
They're really good
if you don't mind reading digital I know where you can read both series in their entirety
They were excellent and truly felt, they belonged in Marvel comics.
@@baronkarza2939 where??? They are never going to reprint them I suppose
Adam, have you explored the odd publishing name changes shown on Marvel splash pages? I was looking through the Artisan edition of John Romitas great Spiderman work. In 1968 odd company names are indicated as publisher of Amazing Spiderman: Non-Pareil Publishing??? Perfect Film & Chemical Corporation??? Are these tax dodge phony shell companies they used over the years?? Have you seen these yourself? Might make an interesting subject for a video?
I wouldn’t judge a creator like Bull against a few issues of “borrowing”, ethical or not. Writers cannot produce under deadline forever, and eventually they’re going to turn to others for inspiration. The key is burying the inspiration in your own ideas. Not everyone can do that every time. It can be the mark of a tired mind, an overworked writer, or personal issues in the moment. You can’t say Bill was a hack, as he did a lot of his own creating and he sus was fully write books for years. These are the few not-so-great issues? Not a problem, IMO.
And sometimes people don't even know they're doing it. Patton Oswalt has told a story about using another comedian's joke, and didn't realize he had heard it before until someone else pointed it out, at which point he stopped telling the joke.
@@temmere I would agree with that. Given just how many stories he's turned out, at the rate he was doing them, he was bound to cross plots with someone else eventually I would say. I highly doubt it was intentional, he certainly seemed to be able to turn out story after story, and only 1or 2 to be really possibly plagarism, you'd think more of his stories would show similarities with others if that was the case. He seems to have put a lot of work in there, and if he was really thinking about character, as he seems to in his other stories, he might think about Bruce's history before the Hulk which might lead to the child abuse storyline, especially if prompted in passing.
@@dodgyb2001 I'm always forgiving, but that seems like a lot closer than merely similar inspirations. This is 'bruce wayne in the alley, with his parents' level of detail.
I think Ed is correct, generally. There is only so many stories to tell, and only so many ways to be told. Inspiration, unconscious or conscious, is always part of all creativity. But I think you have a guy who did so much work, he may have occasionally not put enough spin on his inspirations.
@@temmere Isn’t that the truth. I was working on a script for one of my video games, inspired by Kurosawa’s Seven Samurai. About 20 pages in I realized people would be comparing it to Star Wars! Which makes sense; George Lucas took inspiration from that same source material to comprise his story. I made the tweaks to fix it, but if i hadn’t, i could absolutely see people thinking i stole my ideas from Star Wars.
I still take some of Bill Mantlo's best work was his run on Hulk specially getting closer to issue 300 when Hulk lose control.
And his craziest work was certainly the following when he took Alpha Flight from John Byrne and, apparently, misinterpreted what the comic was all about and decided he could just go crazy on it. In some points his run on Alpha Flight even feels as a proto version of Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol with Sasquatch exchanging gender, a terrifying villain in Scramble who could manipulate human flesh, and his last issue where characters in the story turn aware of being in a comic and refuse to follow the script of "the sadistic writer".
It is still all written in Bill Mantlo's hyperbolic and non subtle way but even if the results weren't always stellar deserved a bit more recognition than it gets.
Wow never knew Mantlo worked on Alpha Flight, Im definetely looking it up.
@@oldmanlogan9616 The books exchanged creative teams. John Byrne moved to Hulk while Bill Mantlo and Mike Mignola moved to Alpha Flight. Bill was on Alpha Flight for awhile from issues #29 until #66
Growing up, Bills AF was the only thing I’d read of his. I liked it a lot, and hope for a collection one day.
Sadly Michael Mantlo, Bill's brother passed away about a year ago. I never knew or met Bill. But I did actually talk 3-5 times with Mike about Bill's condition and questions. On what I thought where all the basic ideas/plots came from for Rom Spaceknight. Mike was a very nice man. I was very sad to hear of how bad Bill's accident had been when we first talked. I had looked up his name and found like three Mike Mantlo phone numbers in the NYC area. He was nice enough to actually call me back. I grew up in the 70's mainly as a kid/teenager young man at the very end of the 70's. Ten days after Rom #1 hit the stands Tuesday, Sept 11th, 1979. I turned 18 and had my very first studio apt. So I have a great detailed memory of his Rom series. I also loved 90% of all Bill's stories.
I enjoyed reading Nova & Rom as much as I did all the Spider-Man titles/guest appearances he did. And that's saying ALOT! I was a Spidey junkie as a kid. A Nova junkie as a teen and Rom as a young adult. In most of the five year run of ROM. I was in the Marines all over the world and very busy. But I always managed to luckily had titles pulled for me from local magazine/comic stores. Growing up in the 70's. There was tons of reruns on tv of series like The Twilight Zone, the Outer Limits and all the classic horror & SF movies. Mainly from the 1930's/0's & 1950's. I thought I had seen them all. But for some unknown stupid reason. I never got to see the original The Thing (1951) The Day the Earth Stood Still also from (1951) and Forbidden Planet. I finally saw both the Thing & the DTESS when I bought them on VHS in 1989/1990? I immediately was blown away by these movies. The stories were great! I asked Mike Mantlo if Bill had done the following while writing Rom he told me I was 100% correct . ROM was like a merging of both Klauttu the humanoid alien & his robot policeman/guardian/protector name GORT! Who was 8 feet tall. Very close to ROM in personality of Klauttu & in image ROM. Rom was 7ft tall & 850 LBS. I always imaged ROM as sort of good version of a Cylon from Battlestar Galactica too. The Dire Wraiths were a cross between the classic Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1956). And the Xenomorph from the Alien movie (1979)
As the Rom series started to kind of drag on story wise. Bill took a huge leap with issue #49 he had almost the complete town of Clairton, WY or Penn in reality I guess. Wiped out by the Dire Wraiths. Including the B hero the Torpedo. Who I loved and was actually mad he killed him off too. But I understood he did it for exactly that reason. To make readers jump up shout Holy crap! You know things are bad. When at the end of the issue. The Skrulls, YES the skrulls land and are here to actually help earth and Rom to Chew bubble gum & Kick ASSES!! LOL Bill's writing to me was very close to Roy Thomas but with a much lighter dialogue/narration and thought balloons. Growing up as a kid/teenager. I never thought I'd one day meet a few and get to be pretty good friends. By phone with many of these top talents who drew and wrote for Marvel in the 60's and 70's. Like Roy Thomas & his wife Dann. John Romita SR,. Joe Sinnott, Gene Colan, Herb Trimpe, Dave Cockrum, Marie Severin, Ron Frenz and even Alex Ross.
ua-cam.com/video/K6iF5sINVns/v-deo.html
'They Live' is based on a 1963 short story called 'Eight 'o clock In The Morning' so I doubt Carpenter ripped Bill off, intentionally or otherwise.
@@martincann5052 OK Thanks I had no idea it was a short story from 1963. So I deleted that sentence.
I think Chris is turning into Bigfoot. The camera captures everything in the room around him in crisp focus. But he's blurry. 😁
I found and purchased an almost complete run of Rom: Space Knight from the back issue bins of my local comic book shop. I'm only missing around 10 to 20 issues, and they're pretty cheap on E-Bay.
I almost have a complete run of ROM myself. I just need five or six issues. I even have all four of the annuals. It is one of my favorite comics.
Loved his Rom series. He deserved a much better fate than he got. Can we also get a profile of the underrated Sal Buscema? He was always in his brother John`s shadow but was/is a fine artist in his own right.
Totally agree - Sal Buscema was ridiculously underrated. Good shout.
I would like an episode on Sal Buscema, his run on Spectacular Spider-Man was gold! Anytime I realized I was reading something else he had had a hand in I got very excited!
LOVE Sal Buscema!! One of my top 5 all time Spidey artists
@@justjasonbearden I always think about the Vulture storyline - perhaps Spectacular 188?
There's this amazing 9 panel page that simply focuses on his face, it's simply brilliant.
@@ShogunZIlla John's art was always a step above Sal's, but John also had better inkers
Micronauts and ROM were favorites when I first started collecting as a kid. Especially Micronauts. Everybody says it, but those first twelve issues are comics perfection! I enjoyed a lot of his other writing, too, but being the fill-in king meant they couldn’t all be winners (I’m looking at you, Tapping Timmy) but he was pretty solid most of the time. What happened to him is so tragic, even sadder, as his brother Michael, who was completely devoted to caring for him and giving updates to his fans, died last year. Michael’s wife is still involved, and Bill is in a much better facility these days, but that’s pretty heartbreaking. Life sucks, sometimes. But anyway, great video! And put me down as missing your old “Oh, hi!” openings, too.
The Micronauts comics was special. It even introduced a new word to kids (great for the SAT): "Endeavor" which was the name of Micronauts' micro ship. It was clearly influenced by the Millenium Falcon.
Two of my favorite books ever. Bill was a great writer. Micros was my favorite for Goldens art.
Hulk's backstory was the best thing that could happen here.
Mantlo gained a reputation as a miracle worker at Marvel in the late 70s. In the early days of the Shooter era, he was your go to guy when a book was late. He could whip up a fill in story or script an issue within a day or so. But yeah, that meant cutting corners and sometimes getting "inspired" by the work of others. Harlan Ellison caught wise to that and threatened to sue (one of his favorite pasttimes). Shooter avoided disaster by giving Ellison free subscriptions to all of Marvel's comics.
It's interesting to note that Mantlo was announced as regular writer on Avengers in 1981, complete with in house ads promoting his arrival only for Jim Shooter to quietly take over the book himself. I always wonder what happened.
Why are you saying all this as if it wasn't stated in this video?
@@mariod5467 because unfortunately, it's very much a thing for people to comment without watching videos
Enter: the Trouble-Shooter.
Great retrospective segment of the Micronauts who I was a huge fan of, even more than *Gasp* Star Wars! What gravitated me about the comics, aside from the Mego toys I collected as a kid, was Mantlo's exceptional worldbuilding and social commentary like the class system and racism. So regardless of these accusations of plagiarism, Mantlo was a genius way ahead of his time and Marvel owes him a huge debt of gratitude.
Slug kills elites and calls them parasites. I expected the next page to lament how she has gone too far.
Instead, the prince says how she will make a good wife.
This run of Peter Parker was not only my favorite of the series and Spider-Man in general, but his work on Peter Parker and Hulk are literally the majority of my favorite comics of all. With the Rom stuff also ranking very high. I had no recollection of all these being his works. Thanks for this video.
I stumbled across an almost complete run of ROM and was surprised by how engaging it was. I think if someone was to pick up any random issue, they'll have a good time with it
My son is T1D and he loves Magic Spoon. Been buying it for a couple years now. Awesome sponsor.
When the USA invaded Afghanistan they originally called it "operation infinite justice" and later changed to "Operation Enduring Freedom". I called it "Operation Spaceknights", remembering how the Galadorian Spaceknights defeated the dire wraith and decided to wage a never-ending war by hunting down the Dire Wraith. Galadorian leaders wrapped the whole decision in the idea that Galador needed to become the Milky Way's 'space police force'. Galador ultimately pivoted to becoming a government of the Spaceknights, by the Spaceknights, for the Spaceknights. SPOILER: it worked out as well as the USA's Afghan war. Obviously the real world is more complicated than this. Bill Mantlo pumping up the good reputation of Galador and then seeing it destroyed by it's own hubris was very well done.
I don't think it was that the Spaceknights wanted to be the "galaxy's police." It was more an issue or responsibility. It was the Spaceknights' attack on Wraithworld that caused the Dire Wraiths to spread to other planets and endanger other beings. I think the Spaceknights' tried to otherwise stay out of a planet's affairs. I think you are trying to create parallels that aren't there.
@@truefanforum3273 "What inspired Mantlo?", I ask myself. I believe that Bill Mantlo was about 25 years old when the Vietnam war ended, and comparing the USA in Afghanistan to the USA in Vietnam is not entirely unreasonable. As I wrote before "Obviously the real world is more complicated than this." But I believe that Mantlo was making a statement about a "war without end" and it's destructive effect on even a paradise such as Galadorian society. That is the ESSENCE of my original point. How comic books have handled the subject of war itself could probably keep ComicTropes' Chris busy with videos for a whole year!
I really wish that Marvel could get the rights to Micronauts and Rom back so that they can finally make collections out of them. I've only been able to get the first four issues of Rom so far.
17 and 18 he fights the X-Men. I loved those issues.
IDW did just lost the rights to 2 Hasbro licensed comics (Transformers & G.I. Joe).
It's an extreme long shot they lose ROM & Micronauts as well and Marvel picks it up again, but hey we can hope. And I will as I really want a omnibus of those series.
@@laughwithmarc IDW is losing the right by the end of the year. They are still publishing comics with those licenses right now
James Gunn has said if Marvel still had the rights to ROM, he would have been in the Guardians movies.
@@laughwithmarc Considering Hasbro revoked the license because IDW's incompetence I doubt they'd give to marvel
Rumor has it that Skybound entertainment is getting the license
Bravo my man. I plan to start a comics related YT channel in about 8 years when I retire from my day job. If it can be even 25 percent as good as this one it will be worthwhile. Your work is a HUGE inspiration.
Start today
@@BGAKHH I've had several people tell me that...but I just feel like with all my existing hobbies and my crappy 10 hour a day "real job" I just couldn't devote enough time to do it right.
@@LarrysLibrary The build up.
A 5 min video a week or two.
You don’t have to drop your magnum opus the first upload. Just have fun
Lol, just subscribed, see you in 8 years!
@@ChuyR. WOW....talk about Divine Direction!
Oh, that Outer Limits episode "Soldier" is really good. If you enjoy old TV, comics, sci-fi etc, you'll probably enjoy it. It should be available on some streaming service.
Funnily enough, I was just getting ready to mention you'd slimmed down. As a larger than recommended chap myself, kudos man. Keep it good
Heck yeah, on my way out of a night shift and see there’s a new comic tropes!!!
Same here 👍
I missed the "Oh, Hi." intros.
Loved ROM and Micronauts as a kid. Only years later did I find out how much Bill Mantlo had been a part of my childhood.
Joy: New Comic Tropes!
Unjoy: Missing the Micronauts.
Happy the Galadorians were featured in the XMen last year, but no ROM.
Such an interesting origin to the abusive dad storyline, as it played a pivotal role in the Immortal Hulk series.
Micronauts was the first comic series I ever collected from beginning to end. There have been various attempts to re do the mythology but the Mantlo run is still my favorite. Very sad that his career was cut short. I’m sure he would have done more comic book work
I love the micronauts and I read recently restarted collecting ROM an interesting character in a well-developed story
I was glad to see that Mantlo got a big shout-out in the recent Guardians of the Galaxy video game. The bar on Knowhere was called "Mantlo's" and Rocket specifically mentioned it several times throughout the game. I just hope the Bill got some compensation for it.
This was a great overview Chris! I loved both Micronauts, ROM and also the Human Fly!
I grew up on Mantlo's work. ROM and Micronauts were two of my favorites. I remember reading about what happened to him in 92. It's just heartbreaking.
Re : Barry Windsor Smith/Mantlo Hulk Child Abuse connection - - Comic Book Creator #25 has a great BWS interview about Monsters, etc. There is also internal Marvel correspondence with Marvel about the Hulk story. Cartoonist Kayfabe interviewed Ann Nocenti she mentions the BWS Hulk story she saw back in the day ua-cam.com/video/ysrajSEH0r0/v-deo.html I ADORED Mantlo's Rom (I have them all) but, it seems clear to me that sometimes Mantlo let his creative judgement lapse.
Bill Mantlo (and Sal Buscema) gave so much to my childhood. Absolutely loved their runs on Rom and Hulk.
Personally, I found Mantlo's writing exactly the opposite of "breezy." Many of his stories were full of pathos and were sometimes quite terrifying.
Stories that stood out to me as a kid included:
Hulk issues 261 and 266. In #261, an insane Absorbing Man attempts to keep Bruce Banner trapped in an underground cave on Easter Island and in Hulk #266, the High Evolutionary tries to get the Hulk to smash his life supporting armour so the High Evolutionary can kill himself.
Rom issues 17 and 43. In Rom #17, a Dire Wraith has a child with a human which turns out be a Lovecraftian monster called "Hybrid" and in Rom #43, Rom becomes human again only to have his entire body start decomposing, turning Rom into someone that looked like a walking corpse.
You can imagine how mind blowing, disturbing and full-on reading these comics were for me. I would have only been about 6 to 10 years old!
Another well researched and wonderfully made episode! Love your content, Chris! You've just been out of focus on the past couple of episodes while your bookshelf had been crystal clear! If your setup is permanent, I suggest having someone or an object on your mark to get the focus nice and crisp. It's clear you have a nice camera and your lens had a nice depth of field. A little tweak and you're rolling! Anyway, great great stuff. Thank you so much!
ROM is still one of my all-time favorite titles. Nothing else like it.
Me too! Very emotional comic
Is the IDW version any good?
@@alanb8884 I don't think so. I hate reboots anyway, so... It only made it 14 issues before it was combined with Micronauts, where everything just got more stupid.
Micronauts; what a fantastic first run- 01-12…. Art by Michael Golden, world building reminiscent of the Star Wars’ hero’s journey. The issues including Man-Thing were great, as well as the side story about the
Acroyear homeworld. Great stuff!
Bill Mantlo's writing was excellent and I liked the crossover with The X-Men. I wasn't too keen on Peter B. Gillis' run, though
Very very true, but we can't forget those runs beautifully illustrated by Gil Kane and later Butch Guice (who would go on to end the series)
@@victorflores2780 i did enjoy the Guice/Armando Gil run.
Micheal Golden art was fantastic.....but I really hated Sal Bucema's art . High school kids could do better.
@@jayc147 Sal Bucema’s characters have one expression, and i agree, it wasn’t the best. But the guy could slam some pages, and always met deadlines, so marvel put him on dozens of books. A lot like JRJR. When he began, he looked like his pop. Then, in the 80’s, his run on Xmen looked really good. These days, he’s trying to pull off a Frank Miller, with less finesse but similar lack of detail. Ugh…
The guy wrote A LOT, and wrote nicely, I liked his stories. What are the chances of him committing unintentional plagiarism THREE TIMES?
Plus the video show the only solid chance of plagiarism was the Hulk story. Nah, It's ONLY ONE stain that can even be addressed as editorial mishappen. Mantlo was awesome.
@@simonmacconmidhe9489 IF the 3 cases were strong, obviously unintentional.
But 2 of them are, being generous with the accusations, weak.
The last one is clear plagiarism, but don't appear to be a solo endeavour of Mantlo, but an ill decision of the whole editorial staff of using the idea of another author in a shape they could publish.
Very glad to hear that you’re making an effort to stay healthy! Best of luck with staying on the path!
There is an early Tales of Suspense comic featuring Iron Man (85 I think) that Bill Mantlo's Iron Man 100 really reminded me of. It sees Happy Hogan get kidnapped in an Iron Man suit, by the Mandarin, which forces Tony to find an old Iron Man suit to rescue him with.
It is however written by Stan Lee and not Archie Goodwin.
I collected both Micronaughts and Rom back in the day. I think Bug has a great design. Remembering these two comic book/toy ads reminds of another one I was found of, Atari Force. Would love to see Chris tackle that one
As I recall, Acroyear was my fav. The way he was in tune w his planet so he could make it destroy Baron Karza's was awesome.
YES
A Comic Tropes video on Atari Force would be awsome.
Your channel has without a doubt reinvigorated the interest I've had in comic books and comic book history.
Thank you SO MUCH!
Bill Mantlo Has been a LARGE inspiration to me since my childhood and is genuinely hard to find good information on...
Again - Thanks a ton - You are AMAZING for this and EVERYTHING else you do here.
Please feel free to cover him more LOL
Given the amount of stories the man was writing day-in-day-out, and the fact that there isn't more instances of plagiarism, I'd chalk up the Hulk incident as an unintentional swipe. The guy wasn't bankrupt on inventing stories and ideas and it just seems out of character for him to swipe something just one time and never again.
Also, given Shooter's the one who keeps bringing this up then contradicts his own stories, I think there's more to say about that than with Mantlo. Perhaps Shooter told Mantlo about the Hulk story and Mantlo assumed that was the direction he was supposed to go in. When the original writer complained, Shooter suddenly "remembers" Mantlo stealing it...even though he was in a position of power to stop a stolen idea. I think that's more likely over Shooter's incredible story of a guy with no record of doing anything like this, reading comic pages in an office that isn't his, sneaks off to write a story, that could easily be caught by editors. It's a stupid theory, in other words, making a lot of assumptions. Here's another theory, maybe Shooter didn't want to admit that he allowed the story to be taken because the original writer was taking too long. Hmmmmmm.
That or he miss remembered
Yeah it's possible shooter just... Was talking about the idea in passing, Mantlo took it as an editorial edict, then the original author complained and Shooter thought it was a lift. It's like something you could make a miscommunication sitcom episode out of.(I hate those.)
I recently found out about the BWS plagiarism story after I read Monsters (thanks to your recommendation) and a friend on IG told me about the story between them. I always find behind the scenes stories fascinating with creators. Thanks for the video!
This couldn’t have been an easy one for
You to present. But a great and fair job as always.
Great video Chris! Informative and interesting as usual. My only critique is that you're out of focus but the background is in focus for the whole video. The last few have had this issue and I find it distracting. It's a minor thing but it was something that I noticed. Keep up the good work!
I was gifted a bunch of comics as a kid in the late 80's, and one of the more memorable issues was ROM #1. I've been slowly finishing that run over the past few years, and this was a wonderful insight into the background.
Quality work as always, Chris!
Thank you for dedicating time to a writer who had a massive impression on my youth. I had four subscriptions to Marvel comics when I was a kid in the late 70's three of them were Mantlo's Hulk, ROM & Micronauts. Another focus on Bill s/b how he created two different sci-fi worlds for the back stories of ROM & Micronauts in relatively quick succession. His top work IMO is the first 13 issues of Micronauts.
I love your videos though I've noticed that in a couple of them the camera is focusing on the background instead of you. Just a nit pick though. You may want to manually focus it before you start or setup face detection mode (if your camera supports it). You could also up the aperture if you don't mind a little noise in the image.
Really impressed with the effort you put into your ad. Most creators just glance off camera and read from a script.
Bill Mantlo shaped my comic book collecting as a child. Micronauts and ROM were the most important series that I had to pick up every month and we subscribed to Micronauts when they moved to a direct edition sales model. I started my life-long collecting of Spider-Man comics with Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man starting with issues in the 60s with Black Cat, Debra Whitman and Dr. Octopus. I think Mantlo's writing style was great for older kids, easy to pick up and read, good action, and yet managed to work in just the right amount of relationship drama that could work for a wide age range. Of all the comic book creators, he is the one I most wish I could meet and let know how his work affected my life. I'm saddened at how his life has been since his accident and that I'll never have that opportunity.
Thank you for telling me about magic spoon cereal. A man can only have so much Cheerios
Hell yeah Chris get those sponsors!! Always a good start to the day when there's a new tropes out
Bill Mantlo and Sal Buscema we're also an awesome team on the incredible Hulk. Issue 250 which was a Silver Surfer and Hulk Team Up is a forgotten masterpiece.💫
Thank you so much for creating and posting this video! Bill Mantlo Is one of my favorite comic book writers, and it was such a joy to listen to your characteristically engaging and well-researched analysis. I wish Bill never had to experience the tragedies that befell him.
Either way, that is so heartbreaking what happened to Mantlo. I can't imagine the pain his family must have gone through and must still be going through, with no one ever caught to hold responsible. Poor guy 😔
Man, I tear up a little every time I hear about Mantlo.
It always makes my day whenever I see your notification pop up. Thank you for your content and hard work.
Holy shit, I got teary eyed when we got to where Bill is now. He had so many stories in him and we're lucky we got to read them.
Awesome. I loved Bill’s run on the micronauts. Great job Chris
With the BWS story, let's consider some things we have seen in the Marvel stable before.
1. Taking undue credit or bestowing undue credit... Stan Lee/Steve Ditko/Spider-man... so it's POSSIBLE that Mantlo was told to write the story.
2. Marvel passing over a compelling and insightful story with elaborate art... that would never happen... again... and again... and again, would it? Especially in regards to working with BWS, right? Right?
3. The Hulk family/Monsters story wasn't that original.
What makes men act out? -->> toxic masculinity/abusive father It's a real world trope.
What's the worst kind of abuse? -->> men hitting women Another real world trope.
When is the worst tie for it to happen? -->> Christmas Eve... Die Hard, Christmas Vacation, It's A Wonderful Life... real world trope again.
On the surface, it's easy to say Mantlo used the same plot and details (not strictly plagerism, but close enough, sure). He totally had the opportunity with access to BWS's pages and the changing of the guard for his Hulk book. What we don't know:
1. When Mantlo wrote it
2. Why he wrote it -- was it part of a larger arc or was it a brief interlude or filler book?
I think unless we can find out what Mantlo thought we can't say he's guilty of anything -- other than pedestrian and uncompelling, though satisfying stories; because that's what A Banner Family Christmas was.
Love your work. This video reminded me of Al Milgom... So many mixed feelings with this guy. Hope you ever do a video on him. Thanks, and keep up the great work!
Just wanna say I’ve spent over a month now watching your videos and you’ve brought me an immense amount of enjoyment and rekindled my love for comics. Thank you so much, I will be a fan for life.
The camera is gonna get more and more out of focus each episode until Chris is just a blurry mass that occupies the center of the screen
All of your videos in the past 2 months have been absolutely excellent. No misses. Not that the previous ones weren't great, but it feels like you hit a higher gear lately. Really brilliant for anyone interested in comic book history.
FANTASTIC episode Chris! I really enjoyed your coverage of the Bill Mantlo story (tragic but very fascinating). Glad to see your doing well and keep it going! Best of luck to you!
🍇 *So glad to see that you ACTUALLY have a for-real sponsor, Chris!* 🍇
Rom was one of my favorite comics, though I didn't really start buying and reading it until late in its run, after he crossed over with The Avengers and ended the war with the Dire Wraiths. The ending of that comic was sad but rewarding as Rom reclaimed his humanity. Thank you, Bill!
Seriously one of my favorite content creators! Very well researched and just plain fun to learn so much!
Great video! Thank you for continually bringing awesome comic related content Chris! Not just this video - but all yer videos. Just wanted to drop some words and let you know your work is definitely appreciated - even more so on hard days after work. I don’t always get to watch the videos the same say they come out but I often play “catch-up” on the weekends or when I have the time. On a personal note - need to get better about sharing your videos across social media - I need to do my part to promote your work. :)
Regarding the Harlan Ellison controversy, Jim Shooter gave an explanation last year when interviewed by the Comic Book Historian channel. It didn't seem like a last-minute credit mistake.
@@charlesgill1177 Maybe, but and I say this as someone who is a huge Ellison fan, he always had a massive ego problem. While I can understand a sensitivity to being taken advantage of, I don't think he should have won the majority of his lawsuits. Devil with a glass hand and Terminator have really no similarities Beyond a couple of images.
Am I saying that he never had a valid complaint? No. But I am saying that he had a huge ego to think that so many people stole so many things from him when, sadly, he was always underappreciated and probably not known.
You can look at how he handled dangerous visions. The second book was heavily delayed and the third book never came out, and he got very ugly if anybody asked to get any of their manuscripts back.
So this is one of those cases where it's really hard to look at either person as a reliable source.
@@cthulhupthagn5771 Understatement of the year. Ellison is an ego with feet. Overrated hack.
@@cthulhupthagn5771 With The Terminator, didn't the whole thing start with James Cameron saying in an interview that he got the idea for the movie from old Outer Limits episodes?
@@KasumiKenshirou He had a fever induced nightmare while working on Piranha 2 in Italy. However the plots between the Terminator and Demon With A Glass Hand/Soldier are very superficial and just involve time traveling warriors.
"Nasty, brutish, and short."
According to Isaac Asimov, this is either Hobbes on Man's Life in a State of Nature, or Asimov on Harlan Ellison.
Or Ellison's unfortunate paramours on Sex with Harlan Ellison.
I loved this video, but I couldn't help notice that Chris was out of focus the entire time. It was very distracting.
Nonetheless, this was certainly an interesting and tragic tale. Bravo!
Sadly, I’ve noticed this about a lot of videos on the channel- the camera seems to be focused more on the wall/background art. Please switch your camera to manual focus and preset your focus instead of relying on your camera’s autofocus. You can put a doll or some other object in your chair to lock-in your focus before filming your episodes.
Gotta say I was ready for a parody ad and then was pleasantly surprised when it was a real ad. I'm glad you're getting sponsors Chris.
Great video, I'm happy to see you post more often and this was an interesting story. I love your take on it.
Here's a story I was thinking about and I'd like to hear your thoughts, insights on, Wizard Magazine. I still have some of those, I think for a lot of people getting into comics it was a fun magazine but of course it had it's share of controversy too, I'd like to see your take on it.
Thank you for making these videos. Always a good watch.
Harlan Ellison did not successfully sue the makers of "The Terminator". It was a nuisance suit and they settled with him to make him go away. James Cameron is pissed about the settlement to this day.
He didn't win the case, but he won the settlement.
Those specific Hulk stories by Mantlo were probably my favorites when I was a kid. The controversy surrounding them is a little disheartening.
Thanks for another great episode. You always do a fantastic job explaining the history of comics & the industry.
This was excellently done! I really enjoyed the research and context done for this essay. The thing that I enjoy most is Chris' passion for comics in general. If he's critical it's from a place of logic and/or conflicting accounts. It's so refreshing! Every episode reminds why I love comics!
Thank God for Michael Mantlo, John's brother. I was a little worried getting into this but it's a very fair analysis. I was also excited to see John Mantlo helping Colleen Doran and A Distant Soil. I had housemates who were Distant Soil fans, and one local (Pittsburgh PA) musician had discs published by WaRP Graphics. It all goes to show that long before there was an Internet, there was already a great "Web" of artists helping each other.
I love that you post on sundays, its a great to have your show on while i make breakfast on my day off!
Mantlo’s run on hulk is amazing, he’s one of my favorite Bronze Age writers.
It's really insane how tragic the comics industry in nations like the USA and Japan are. They are huge in those countries yet the exploitation and even personal tragedies just seem disproportionate.
The industry is treated like cheap disposable entertainment and little respectability. Get it done cheap and fast and pay as little to your creators. When that changes, the abuses will stop. Industry implosion is a good thing. Decades of corporate superhero reboots and indentity politics over good storytelling has hurt the industry. The system is broken and needs to change.
Comics don't really make much money as it used to be. Especially when it comes to marvel & DC, it's a way to cheaply keep their IPs relevant in pop-culture & give them new ideas. That's it.
Comics industry is tragic in most places, unfortunately. Like here in my country, Brazil. The only place that seems to have a healthy enviroment for comics is some countries in Europe,where independent artists can have a confortable life and have their work recognised as what it is, art. But I may be wrong since Im not all that familiar with life in most european countries.
@@gabbar51ngh yes, sad but true
I love your videos, but just want to say that ya gotta fix that focus man, I don't know why your background is so in focus and you're not and I've noticed it in a good couple of recent vids. The content is stellar, but this part of the presentation just needs a little bit of tweaking and it'll be great.
This is really great. I put off watching this for a long time since the title kind of hinted that it was going to be an attack. This was so well done, very balanced and fair. Simply a great and a demonstration of skillful reporting. Thank you.
I've been collecting comics for a LONG time! And now that I'm older and look back at what I read as a kid, I'm always amazed at how I was buying the work of certain creators kind of wholesale! I knew what I liked, even if I didn't really understand who was making it! I find that I LOVED Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's work. Instead of buying the brand new stories of the month, I kept gravitating to Marvel's Greatest Comics, Marvel Spectacular, Marvel Triple Action, Marvel Double Feature....I was a big fan of Stan and Jack's Fantastic Four, Avengers, Captain America, etc. The other creator that I knew I loved, but it's funny how the more I look into it, the more I read his stuff, was Bill Mantlo. I LOVED Micronauts and Rom back in the day. And still do! To me, those were awesome examples of long-term planning and development of story. Those books kept building off of their foundations until the reached their ends. And they are definitely STILL solid runs! But it's also funny that I was reading Iron Man WHEN Bill was doing it, but not much other than that. I was a huge Hulk fan during his run! And while I hated the "Savage Hulk" period where he was just bumming around the Crossroads of Eternity, sometimes you have to have the status quo taken away to appreciate it. In a lot of ways, Bil''s take on the Hulk was a cautionary tale. We got to see what would happen if Hulk got cured. And it was kind of that "Watch out what you wish for" scenario. Professor Hulk is just not as interesting as the monstrous Hulk having adventures and Banner trying to find a cure. Bill got it a solid go, though! Can't say he never did anything different! And it stuck for a while! I also loved his runs on Peter Parker, Alpha Flight, etc. I LOVE John Byrne's work and I know he created Alpha Flight. But under him, the book got deconstructed before it even started. And it just never seemed to go anywhere. Bill got in on track and made the characters feel like a team/family. Dysfunctional, but a team nonetheless. So, to sum it up, Bill Mantlo's work influenced my childhood a LOT! I guess, unconsciously, I always compare other works to his. That is the gold standard to me! If a writer is doing half as good as Bill, they're doing pretty good!
As to the plagiarism...The Mandarin/Iron Man story. I mean, yeah, there is some similarities. But....That is the problem with a lot of those old books. The villains were kind of one note. Mandarin does some crap with his rings and Iron Man takes him out by taking them off the table. The story itself, while you could say had some similarities, it's not a copy. And the Michael O'Brien storyline had been building for a while. So I don't feel like it was a swipe. Bill might have been influenced by Archie's story, since back in those days the writers typically had to read books that had gone before. But I don't see it as a steal. I have a lot of respect for Jim Shooter, but he has been know to talk out of his....Well, you know.
The Hulk #186 story: Well, that has happened before. In much more famous books. I'm talking to you, Alan Moore with Watchmen! Stealing the ending straight out of an Outer Limits episode! But in this case, I tend to think they just forgot to credit Harlan. Like Chris says, Harlan Ellison made a living out of pissing people off and arguing with them when he wasn't writing. Heck, there was even a club where to be a member you had to have been dissed or punched by Harlan. All that being said, Harlan had done some work in the past for Marvel in the Hulk, so I kind of suspect this was something similar, where they took one of his plots and had a comic writer adapt it. And someone probably just forgot to throw the credit in. I could see Harlan calling about that. But if someone outright plagiarized him? Oh, it would be all over the comic mags back in the day and the internet today! He wouldn't let that kind of stuff go! The other thing would be that that story had fill-in written all over it. It kind of took place right between the first few "Professor Hulk" stories and when he starts turning savage. Probably just a good place to throw in an easy adaptation story that could give Bill time to do a little more plotting for the real story.
Now, the Hulk #312. That IS the dicey one! I mean, when you look at Barry's story and the finished Mantlo story....They ARE very similar! The only thing I can say in defense of that one is...MAYBE it wasn't Bill entirely that was responsible for that one. The problem with this book is you have to find the EXACT timeline on the events, which I haven't been able to find acceptably to make a good argument. Bill had started work on the Savage Hulk story maybe in some ways as far back as the beginning of his run on Hulk. For certain, as of #264, the direction starts to spin toward Hulk getting "cured". After his cure in the aftermath of Hulk#271, the storyline begins a slow descent into Hulk going completely mindless and violent as of #300. After that, the Crossroads" story builds from #301-312. The question, then, is when did Windsor-Smith bring in his pages? I don't believe Mantlo would have just been: "Oh, cool! I'll have Hulk's dad be an abuser!" and steal a story that month. Now, if the pages turned up around a year before....We could be looking at a big swipe.
Now here is where the plot thickens, as they say! Barry Windsor-Smith had burned a LOT of bridges by that time period. While being a fan favorite creator, his slow work and attitude had kind of put him in the doghouse. Yeah, he still got work in the years to come and a lot of people love that work. But in the 80's, he was kind of persona non gratis. I can see Smith bringing in the work, Jim Shooter liking what he saw, but then realizing that Smith would take forever to get it done, if he didn't just get bored and move on, and totally turning him down. Plus, this was Marvel in the 80's. That kind of pitch wasn't going to get made! Maybe an adaptation in Epic Magazine or one of those Epic comics they were making. But, overall, they didn't like working with people that couldn't keep up with the pace! So...I would say it's POSSIBLE that Jim Shooter liked the angle, thought it would fit good with Hulk, and throw the pages to the Hulk staff and see if they could adapt it. Maybe throw Smith some cash, maybe not. Just take enough of the idea to adapt and forget about it. Heck, Mantlo might have been passing through and the pages he saw strike a cord in him and he just took the idea and ran with it. One thing was almost certain....That book wasn't going to get published by Marvel!
And we would also have to know how much was actually finished for that treatment. Some pages of a man smacking his kid around is enough to make an impression, but not enough to really call a book. Did Smith have a few pages? Half of the book? I mean, it's been thirty years, and he has a habit of not being a trustworthy narrator, so who knows what is the truth? Did someone get some inspiration? I would say so, undoubtedly. Did someone just straight rip him off? Maybe. Was it Bill Mantlo? Possibly? Did Mike Mignola see those pages and thought they looked cool and use the layout? Who can say for sure? I don't want to see anyone ripped off, but who knows exactly what went on here? Bill Mantlo, sadly, can't tell us. Nobody seems to have gone to Mike Mignola for the story. Windsor-Smith can be a little shady in his interviews. And Jim Shooter just tends to say things how he remembers them, without having anything to do fact checking with. I mean, I know the relationship with him and Barry must have been decent thereafter, since they worked at Valiant together a few years later. But....I could see Jim telling someone to feel free to use that story layout because Smith's would never see light, since anyone knows if you didn't stay on him, he wouldn't get anything done. Definitely not if left to his own devices. Sorry, Barry!
I think the main thing is: If someone really did totally swipe Barry's work, that ain't cool! Or if you were going to use his treatment for a Hulk story, at least credit him as a co-plotter. But....For the most part, it's hard to look at Manto's work and say: "Oh, yeah, this guy was ripping people off left and right!" He wrote TONS of comics in his day and they feel like Bill Mantlo books. So, if he did lift this story of his own free will, that is a shame, since his record was pretty much untouchable other than a blip or two that can mostly be written off. But, we just have to look at the potential that he might NOT have done it all on his own. If Jim Shooter tells you to use something, well...
Finally, much love to all of the people mentioned. Jim Shooter is an underrated creator. He might have been hard to work with sometimes, but he gave Marvel a direction that kept them the top dogs in a comic world that was beginning a shift in the mid-80's. Those Marvel zombies of the early 90's came right out of his era! Barry Windsor-Smith's art is beautiful and fully detailed. If you give that man time to do things the way he feels comfortable, it will take some time, but you'll get masterpieces. Mike Mignola's work speaks for itself! Nobody does monsters like Mike! And Bill Mantlo...It's a shame the hand fate dealt him. One of the most tragic figures I know of. Made more sad that his work on comics gave me a lot of the foundation that my life is built on! I hate to see the way things played out for him....But I am happy for all of the great output he was responsible for in a time when I NEEDED heroes! Thank you, Bill, for all of the awesome memories!
Awesome work, Chris!
Bill has such a classic American story, so allegations of past impropriety to which he can't respond are the American-ist thing in a way. I've enjoyed the work of Bill (And Chris!!) for as long as I've known of it and thank you so much for your service in media, about media and in life (both of you)! Thanks for another great video about a great creator!!
Your content is great as usual but I miss the old “oh hi” intros you did.
Mike Golden's artwork was what drew me in to the Mirconauts; and in to The 'Nam, too.
14:07 That cover of ROM gunning down the groom at the wedding has serious EC Horror energy.
I grew up with the duo mantlo/buscema and am very grateful for their work. Thank you Chris for a Bill Mantlo episode.
In your zealousness to be even-handed, you overlook another explanation of Jim Shooter's differing accounts of the "Soldier" plagiarism incident. In the 1987 interview, Shooter was still working for Marvel, and the public face of Marvel. Therefore, he had to take the Marvel line, whether or not he agreed with it. Claiming that it was a mistake rather than plagiarism would be a better face on things for the company, and was in fact their first explanation out of the gate.
How many single-issue comic stories were officially adapted from science fiction short stories? I'm not talking a literal adaptation, I mean how many SF writers got paid to have their stories adapted into a single Hulk or Spidey (or Avengers, or whatever) issue. That's something that would actually add to the budget significantly and while Marvel was enormously profitable in the 1980s, I can't think of another instance of that scenario happening. Which makes it seem unlikely to have happened in that instance.
You claim that Harlan Ellison was never afraid of drama, but that ignores another aspect of his character: he was always after justice. He was dogged about going after liars and cheats, but when he was ready for a fight and got met with "Yeah, we fucked up, how can we make this right?", he didn't keep pushing. The stories of him publicly shaming the producers of _The Starlost_ or sending a publisher a dead woodchuck via fourth class mail, and the like, all have one thing in common: his targets thought they could keep lying and cheating and get away with it.
Harlan had always been very litigious over even the slightest similarity to his works. He felt Soldier was too much like James Cameron's fever induced dream/screenplay. Plus Ellison wrote more than a few stories for Marvel himself, so I doubt there would be bad blood.
Thanks! I had a bad experience back in the 80’s and apparently have a lot of ‘hidden memories’ with respects to elements of your absolutely invaluable knowledge of the Bronze Age era. Thanks for opening them back up…. The Micronauts and Rom…. Wow!
Great work. I collected so much of Mantlo's work back in then. You need your own Netflix series dude.
Good Lord this brings back such great memories of when I first began to actually read comic books! Thank you so much for the walk down memory lane!
I love Mantlo's run on the Hulk. To me, that is the definitive Hulk run. Awesome that you got the sponsorship, I always wanted to try their cereal, but I can't since I don't live in the US