The Psychology of the Charismatic Movement w/ Dr. Breuninger and Isaac Wicker
Вставка
- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
- 📺 Full Episode: • Ask These Therapists A...
Dr. B and Isaac talk about the charismatic movements psychology and interplay with the rise of Traditionalism.
🟣 Join Us on Locals (before we get banned on YT): mattfradd.loca...
🖥️ Website: pintswithaquin...
🟢 Rumble: rumble.com/c/p...
👕 Merch: shop.pintswith...
🚫 FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: www.strive21.com/
🔵 Facebook: / mattfradd
📸 Instagram: / mattfradd
We get a small kick back from affiliate links.
I got kicked out of a charismatic group here in Australia. I complained they were too controlling, and they were. Also, it was very protestant-feeling. No crucifixes, only crosses. They sprung the microphone on me one day and asked me to say a prayer, I started to recite the Hail Mary and they snatched it off my hands only a few words in. Later I found myself being completely ignored at mass by some members I had previously invited to my home for dinner. Too weird for me. The speaking in tounges seemed contrived, they almost suggested they were giving you a 2nd Baptism with their slaying of the spirit. Saying all that, there were some really good people who went, real devout people, but for me? I'll stick to tradition, mass, confession and rosary.
So did I here in the States
I believe all you report here, and I have been making the case for decades that not allowing the Holy Spirit to move among us, enliven us and reveal to us our missions and gifts that are very real through the restoration of Assembly Life had the effect of banning the Holy Spirit from Parish life, and that’s why Vatican II approved the Charismatic Movement-not as THEE way for us as a Parish to be moved by the Holy Spirit, but a temporary movement to keep the presence of the Holy Spirit to us in the absence of Assembly Life where the Holy Spirit does move among us and reveals to us our gifts and missions. In other words, at Vatican II many prelates became aware of how laity are NOT having their missions and gifts revealed by the Holy Spirit as Jesus intended-through Assembly Life, and why they called for “lay formation and a new evangelization” that begins with the restoration of Assembly Life, and why there has been no activation of lay formation and a new evangelization. They saw the Charismatic Movement keeping the Spirit alive until Assembly Life is restored, what is Pope Francis’ primary mission as our Holy Father. But clerical resistance is still firmly in place, rejecting that restoration, revealing, as you have, the Charismatic Movement is not the answer to clerical suppression of Assembly Life.
The fact that praying the Ave Maria was abhorrent to them tells you everything you need to know. This movement is trying to corrupt Catholicism from within. We must be on guard.
Surely this was a Catholic charasmatic group right? Because if it was protestant of course theyd grab the mic once you started with the hail Mary lol
@@1517the_year It was Catholic
As an introvert charismatics are way too loud for me I prefer sitting in adoration 😂
Charismatics-how they gather and sustain the importance of the Holy Spirit’s presence in our lives as the Mystical Body of Christ-is a powerful remnant of what was cancelled by clerics many centuries ago: Assembly Life. This Assembly Life would follow Eucharistic Celebration, what you correctly reference as a time for silence/adoration and response to readings in spoken word or in song, as in the reading of the Psalms. And Jesus, reiterated by Paul (“Do not absent yourselves from the Assemblies!”), insisted we gather as Parish to discern together FOLLOWING Eucharistic Celebration, a time when our hearts, minds and souls are purified for radical discernment, as is the case after leaving the confessional room, only at a much wider angle and involvement by the entire Parish, those wishing to attend, what occurred even in the catacombs during the persecutions.
That’s how vital those gatherings were, where every voice, cleric and lay, would be heard in discernment, and where our missions and gifts to complete those missions would be revealed! It’s rare today for any lay person to know what his-her missions and gifts are absent that discernment process.
Once Assembly Life is restored, as Pope Francis has been trying to do, the Charismatic Movement will no longer be necessary (it seems an exaggeration only because of how terribly lacking every Parish is in being moved by the Holy Spirit into action, and why Vatican II insisted on this revival, what is called “lay formation and the new evangelization”, what cannot occur until Assembly Life is restored, and why after a half century we still have no lay formation and a new evangelization as our Lord insisted from the beginning.
As someone whose mother joined a Pentecostal church for 5 yrs, Catholics need to battle against embracing these movements. The trauma (I will detail it if asked) I experienced in that church drove me into atheism for decades. Traditional Catholicism already perfectly blends the intellectual and the emotional with transubstantation. Outside influences do not benefit the Mass.
Hi. Can you identify what about that experience made you think there was no God? I mean, you said you became an atheist for some time. Thanks 🙂
I was completely thinking this. Had bad experiences with Charismatics in the Catholic church. The Tradition of the church has all the passion properly ordered. Just go to a high mass. In mental prayer though, that is the place for the free impulse they are talking about with God.
@@therese_paula Absolutely. My mother was a lifelong Catholic until she joined the Assemblies of God church when I was 5 or 6 yrs old. This is the largest Pentecostal church in the world, so this was not a fringe group. Almost immediately, the church demanded that she give away all "secular" entertainment in the house, including that of the children. Most of our toys and books and all of our music and films were given away. Friends were screened. Many topics were absolutely not allowed to be discussed. This made us seem like strange cult kids because we had no idea what was going on in the popular culture during those years.
However, the true trauma came during the services. I had sensory issues (could not handle loud noises, lights, and lack of routine) due to ASD. A Pentecostal church is the last place where such a child should be. Well, the people there would begin their "speaking in tongues," work themselves into fits, and thrash about. This scared me to the point where I covered my ears and began to rock to comfort myself. Of course, to the Pentecostals, only a demon would hide from "The Word of the Lord" spoken "in tongues," so, against my will, they would "lay hands on me" to "drive out the demon." Bear in mind that I could bear to be touched by approximately 4 people in the world. This was utter torture for me. Add in Rapture theology which the church told us (in the mid 80s) was 100% coming in the next few yrs and everyone who didn't believe exactly as the church taught would be tortured by the agents of the Beast and either beheaded or forced to take his mark, and within a short time I became suicidal as a child. I sincerely prayed every night for cancer to end the torture I endured at that church.
This finally ended when the Catholic sisters at my school (my father wanted us to have a decent education, and the public schools were rubbish) noticed that I had lost a lot of weight, never smiled, and barely spoke. Prior to this, I was very animated about the topics that I loved and would chat with the sisters for hours about my new books or documentaries. These ladies spoke to me and contacted my father that he had to end what was driving me into severe depression NOW. He gave my mother an ultimatum that she either she stopped taking us to the church or they would divorce. Since she couldn't support herself, she chose the former, and we returned to the Catholic Church.
Having experienced some of the worst theology that Christianity had to offer, I began to question the lot of it. Why would God allow these psychos to do this to children? Why did their Bibles leave them so delusional? I looked into the history of the End Times and saw throughout the past 2000 yrs various crackpots had predicted the end, with futile and often disastrous results. I read research about the phenomenon of "tongues" and how, without a shadow of a doubt, it was proven to be gibberish. The Pentecostal church promoted so many obvious lies that it made me feel that all of Christianity, even the very concept of God, was without evidence, and only a gullible fool would believe it. It took many years and I still struggle to believe in God, but I now can separate the horrors I felt in the AoG with a morz sensible, more rational traditional Catholic theology. Apologies for the length.
@@JakeHGuy Thank you for the solidarity, and I absolutely agree. Traditional Catholicism offers so much emotional appeal from prayer to the Stations of the Cross to eucharistic adoration that outside forces do not need to be incorporated. The Mass is a piece of heaven on earth and blends the intellect with the emotional perfectly.
@@Charlotte_Martel Thank you for sharing your story. I praise God for the nuns in the school you went to, for your father who stepped in out of great love for you, and I praise God for your continuous healing and for drawing you back to Him. Glory to God! God bless you and I send my virtual hug 🤗
I would say there are many parts, all one body. The Charismatic Movement is not something I find myself super-excited about, but I'm happy for those that really find it wonderful. There's a place for the more intellectual, a place for the more emotional, and a place for the in-between. I think the Charismatic Movement might be a wonderful place for many of the Evangelical Protestants I know down here in the rural South, especially Pentecostals, just as the Eastern Catholic churches are a great place for converts from Eastern Orthodoxy. They're expressing their faith similar to how they always have, just now it's the true faith.
But for me, I'm not a fan. I don't really get excited even about praise and worship tunes, just all seems kind of cheesy and poppy to me. But as I say, I'm glad for those who really like it.
Every movement of the Holy Spirit, be it the Charismatic movement or the “movement” towards Traditional Catholicism or any other move of the Spirit will have folks who are not necessarily functioning in the Spirit but are fulfilling fleshly needs. We need to be careful about “judging” a movement of the Holy Spirit from a human point of view. Certainly there have been abuses here just as there have been abuses in other movements in the Church. We would be wise not to judge the “Psychology” of the movements, but the fruits. By their fruits we will know them…
It's a false dichotomy. St. Thomas (et al) does not have ecstacy in prayer because of the sheer sublimity of their intellectual recognition of divine truths. By the same token almost no one has come to sublime divine truths by throwing themselves into charismatic expression without silent, intentional contemplation.
It is by intense moments of relation with the Father in the Spirit that we come by those precious and rare moments as well as instants of internalization of divine mysteries.
Same here. I much prefer a quiet setting . People and noise can be exhausting.
Both my parents became involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I respect their journey and watched to see fruits of their new venture. After seeing positive changes in their life together, in the community where they continued to be of service but in a more profound way, I took part as well. In time , my older daughter enjoyed conferences w me. We both have prayer languages that are handy at filling in the gaps . When at a loss for words the Holy Spirit can take over. It involves a learned act of surrender; of opening oneself further to God. The Holy Trinity becomes central in a special, personal way. Scripture reading and studies were of enormous benefit to me. I received healings as well.
Yes I met some wacko people: not surprising bc Jesus came for the sick, the downtrodden, the fringes of society. I saw these people being lovingly cared for, patiently tolerated and seldom in charge of groups. It has been over 30 yrs now. My parents have gone to their eternal reward, and tho I am not active in a regular group I am able to use gifts so graciously given from my Lord and Savior.
A lot of the music is from my high school days. I like some in particular.
Lack of reverence was never an issue in the New Orleans area. The priest were major prayers! Close to the 3 in One.
Oh! And once I found the remark in Genesis about the Spirit of God playing amidst creation, I decided I liked Him quite a bit. In my mind He's the playful One!
The Catholic charismatic renewal has been a profoundly good force in my life. Manifesting the movement of my soul externally with my body comes very naturally to me because I’m a dancer, and if done right it is not performative or Vegas-like at all. However, just as with anything good, emotions can be manipulated and abused. This means that not every charismatic group is going to have a healthy dynamic. Sometimes the egos of those running it take over. But if you find yourself a deeply catholic group or even pray alone in your room with arms raised to heaven, that’s a beautiful thing. You’re praying as a whole person, body and soul! Very much like the first apostles.
Also to clarify: this sort of praise is never a replacement for the Mass or adoration. Making it an either/or is a false dichotomy. The early church did it all!
This is easy enough to articulate in conceptual/spiritual conversations, but when it comes to applying this at the pastoral level, it's much harder to navigate.
I think Matt is misunderstanding the nature of Charismatic and Pentacostal theology. They are not teaching that it is good to be enthusiastically in love with God or anything similar. Rather, they believe that these excited emotional states they fins themselves in ARE the supernatural workings of God, which is, plainly, ludicrous.
Charismatics are likely to tell you that the goosebumps you get when listening to worship music means the Holy Spirit is working in you. Sorry, but no, that is not what it means.
I love the charismatic renewal, 30 years and still love the praise and worship, l love the Holy Mass and scripture too along with the gift of tongues. The best and most loyal friends and helped me grow in my relationship with Jesus.
I think one challenge I would make is this. While the call to relationship is beautiful in the charismatic movement I think there is often a flawed understanding of what relationship is.
YES we should be telling God, this is me in all my brokenness. We should be vulnerable. We should also give praise for all that he is and his love for us.
But what I have found in my experience with the charismatic movement (I would attend groups when at seminary and even went to a couple of conferences because I wanted to be open to it and respectful towards it) is that it then dictates that relationship of God. Rather than listen to what he has to say, we set the conditions of the relationship. We say what he is doing for us and how we are in relation to him, not the other way around.
I’m sure there are some who can be a part of this movement and have this sense rightly ordered, but I found far too often it leads towards this path.
That and I also do not care for speaking in tongues which I found in all of those circles.
I think there is a beauty in praise and worship and I love being able to name the love of Christ for me, but I’ve been quite cautious around the movement as a whole.
As a beloved son of the most high and as a proud charismatic I say boldly say that the renewal was the turning point of my life I started to read the bible and started learning the teachings of the church from the renewal its self
Excellent discussion! ❤
Yes! So good! This is important for more traditional priests to recall. To allow oneself to be absorbed in the worship of Holy Mass, chanting the prayers from the heart, caught up in the adoration of the blessed Trinity.
I grew up and attended the pentecostal movements for many years before I entered the church. If someone loves it, good for them. Definitely not for me and I cannot encourage it in good conscience.
I think, these groups should be scrutinized by the church, I have experience very idiotic behaviour, denial and inability to take ownership of bad behaviour from appointed and self appointed leaders of a group that really cost me. Found a lot of ego and "other worldliness", attention seeking going on in a large one in Australia. Often the people that gravitated to leadership were the offenders.
Looking at it now, I think the good people would have been better off serving the local church or St Vinnie's for example. Just my experience
Wish you could interview Fr. Dwight Longnecker, former Anglican priest.
No one covered what happens when they abuse you
I don't know how many times I've heard iT's NoT aBoUt a ReLiGiOn It'S aBoUt A rElAtIoNsHip
I hate that argument too. Considering that most of us fail at long distance relationships even when we regularly chat with our loved one, I can't imagine how anyone can truly believe that he/she is in a deep relationship with a being who never speaks, has no physical body, etc.
@elzakrasz charismatics and pentacostals believe they do have 2 way conversations with God, which is something I think Matt is missing here. When they say "I hear the voice of God speaking to me," they aren't engaging in any kind of symbolism. They believe that God is literally speaking to them and that the voice in their head is literally God literally speaking. And not as a one off or a thing that happens sometimes, but something they hear all the time.
@@bad_covfefe Excellent point, and one that I thought would have been addressed in the video that claims to tackle the psychology of these movements. As you described, it is akin to self induced schizophrenia.
@elzakrasz I like that description. It really is akin to schizophrenia, or perhaps something between having an imaginary friend and schizophrenia. It seems like Matt just thinks charismatics are just like any other Christian that is really excited about Christianity, but that really isn't what they are. They might as well be a completely different religion even from traditional protestants.
How can you support this and complain about Novus Ordo?
As someone who has and continues to experience both the TLM and the charismatic renewal, comments here make me pretty sorrowful. It was through the charismatic renewal that I discovered and surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. It was through a traditionalist priest that i rediscovered my Catholicism. I know this will probably offend but the Holy Spirit does not operate only through the charismatic renewal or through the TLM movement. Both have been vehicles for people to have truly profound conversions. Its humorous when the intellectual sobriety of traditional Catholicism is contrasted with the emotionalism of charismatics. Caricatures at best. When you read the lives of the saints, great saints - like St Dominic and St Pio - wept as they celebrated Mass. How many trads tell me that they wept at their first Latin Mass? Is that experience invalid? In the same regard, charismatics can be very grounded spiritually. Has there been abuse in the charismatic renewal? Absolutely. Has there been abuse in the traditionalist community? Yes whether anyone wants to admit it, even in the SSPX. Its fine to disagree but can we be at least charitable with one another?
Thank you for this comment. I just don’t see why most people can’t appreciate both movements without try to elevate on over the other or demonize the other
"relational"? meaningless jargon, dudes. the intellect is essentially relational and necessarily grounds any properly human/personal relation, so the distinction between "intellectual" and "relational" is an entirely false distinction.
They have never been abused by these people. They need to listen to the people who've been harmed by them.
Love the closing coment. You go guys. Say it
I suppose I don’t mind the Charismatic Movement as long as they stay away from me.
Good can come out of anything. Relation can include feelings, but by no means the essence of relation
Not this. Believe me.
@@debralittle1341 You are absolutely correct, Debra. This movement is trying to rot the Church from within. We must not allow it to succeed.
The last few comments are gold.
Love the Lord your God with all your HEART and SOUL and MIND and STRENGTH. It's all there. Our Father wants us to love Him with our entire being..
Yahweh is an expressive and emotionally vibrant and divine being. His emotions are part of His divinity. Looks at the father's reaction in the parable of the prodigal son, look at the abundant examples of Yahweh's expressing his hurt at unfaithful Israel. I shudder at traditions thats muzzle emotions as a form of piety.
I totally agree with you, especially that last part. God is always described as emotional in the Bible, and He remained emotional when He became Man as well. There's no good reason to stifle our emotions if we feel them for God, He feels them for us as well.
We need to ramp it up and include acrobats and liturgical Cossack-style horse riding.
God is not "a being".
@@davidrojas6457 what is he then?
This is not about loving God but following rules
all aboard the rizz movement
Please get Fr. Jim Blount on your show!!!
YESSSSS!!!! Gabriel Castillo and Fr. Blount are my two top show suggestions!! Make it happen, Matt!!! ❤
Have his prophesies/predictions been approved by his bishop?
@@mattduin7144 not familiar enough with him to know that he even has prophecies or predictions. I would assume he’s sharing things He believes come from the Holy Spirit. Not being a smarty pants but maybe you should contact his bishop and find out. He’s out of Atlanta Georgia, I think. 🙏🏻
@@MargaretAnne27 i would have thought if a visionary were approved by his bishop it would be common knowledge or he would let people know
@@mattduin7144 Fr. Blount has simply shared his own personal experiences and visions, as have many other priests. Every word that comes out of a priests mouth, including Fr. Jim's, does not require the approval of a bishop. He's not trying to turn his personal experience into Catholic dogma nor has he ever claimed to be a visionary or prophet like those of Medjugorje or Fatima, so I don't see where the need for a Bishop's approval is needed. I've heard similar experiences shared by the likes of Fr. Don Calloway in his conversion story, Fr. Cedric Pisegna in his experience that made him become a priest, and Fr. Rick Wendell with his experience that drove him to the priesthood. More important is Fr. Jim's love for Jesus and the Catholic faith. The man is a force for the church and should be cherished.
Perhaps a holy person is a whole person who is capable of both. The Holy Spirit expresses Himself is so many different ways and we, as humans, are made up of emotions and intellect. Both have their place and there can be a balance.
Charismatics end up pharisaical... Instead of long phylacteries it's sobbing during worship songs.
I do appreciate this analysis
(Charismatic + TLM)/2 = Eastern Catholic
It's unexpected, but true.
I love the Charismatics❤❤
Can you get an Ordinariate priest on?
They're dangerous
@@debralittle1341 Who?
I like the people who handle snakes. Can you get us one of those?
Some magic tricks, kazoos, zydecos, clown noses, and "liturgical dancing" would be some great crowd-pleasing gimmicks, too.
@@lzcontrol silly silly comment
@@albertito77 Silly silly heresy
Priests say different things, movements say different things, monks say different things, UA-camrs etc all say different things, the laity say different things….the only one not talking to me…is God.
If Catholicism is false. I think I’ve just had enough of life. It’s utterly pointless.
Truth is found in the infallible Doctrines and Dogmas of the Catholic Church. You can rest assured in what the Church infallibly teaches about Faith and Morals, since it cannot, never has, and never will err in this regard, regardless of good popes, bad popes, good clergy, bad clergy, scandals, etc. God is guiding His ship. God Bless you, Richy.
Just recently attended the Southwest Charismatic Conference in Albuquerque, and it was powerful!
David danced out of love in front of the tabernacle
Yes, in the streets, but not during liturgical worship
HEEEEEEEEEEE!!! I think not...Bye
What an absolute breath of fresh air! I love Catholics, but it's hard to listen to their content when they bash protestantism. Thank you for seeking unity with this discussion!
I'd like to thank Protestants for revolting from the Church our Lord founded and starting this circus. You opinion is really important in matters of Divine Authority.
They don't bash Protestantism. It's the other way around.
charismatic is the heresy from the abyss shown in revelation
The charismatic churches are the best. They do not play when it comes to God.
I have attended Ottawa st. Mary parish and the holy spirit is palpable.
The companions of the cross priests are the priests who were founded by the late fr. Bob Bedard and they are Christ's worriors.
Some of the priests i remember from the companion of the cross are fr. Carlos Martins, fr. Mark Goring, fr. Roger Vandenikker( sorry for the mispelling here) and a lot of more.
The relationship with God is a focus and they have faith and obey God's commandments.
Mix both tradionals and charismatic would be the best.
It's not important for you to feel it. You must have faith. This movement has abused many people.
@@debralittle1341 I think, these groups should be more scrutinized by the church, I have experience very idiotic behaviour, denial and inability to take ownership of bad behaviour from leaders of a group that really cost me. Found a lot of ego and other "worldliness" going on in a large one one in Australia. Often the people that gravitated to leadership were the offenders.
Looking at it now, I think the good people would have been better off serving the local church or St Vinnie's for example. Just my experience
@@debralittle1341 Nonsense. It's all about emotions, feelings, and amazing Vegas-type shows.
@@debralittle1341it depends when and where. It's not inherently bad, its how it is used.
You people know not of which you speak.
Pope Francis has had a singular focus during his pontificate: the Restoration of Assembly Life, which would mean the restoration of the Royal Priesthood--cleric and lay alike united in discernment as the Mystical Body of Christ HERE, in THIS Parish, following Eucharistic Celebration, where every member of a Parish would be purified as best they could be, and made ready for open discernment together immersed in the Life of the Holy Spirit moving wildly among them, what Jesus insisted was the ONLY way for those outside the Parish to know us, and why Paul insisted, "Do not absent yourselves from the Assembly!", what no longer exists in the Church, and what Pope Francis has in futility been trying to restore with his two Synods on Synodality, restoring what was divided: open discernment between ceric and lay, what was approved as a path forward at Vatican II, called "lay formation and the new evangelization", what has been paid lip service by the clerical class without actually doing anything for over a half century. And that radical division between cleric and lay via the cancellation of Assembly Life was made clear by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger in his small 1960 book, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, what has been ignored by the entire clerical class until Pope Francis, making it obvious why he and Pope Benedict XVI get along so well, contrary to popular clerical-class opinion who are unknowingly stomping out the initiative of Francis' synodal process with a disbelief cleric and lay can join in a discernment process as the Royal Priesthood..
This restoration would restore ATTENTION to parish members as a Parish actually BEING the Mystical Body of Christ in fullness, what can only occur through the Restoration of Assembly Life, which would be the radical healing of our fallen faith lives--lives presently subsumed into Satan’s concoction of political paradigms of meaning by both the Left & Right, Satan’s original Plan that seems to be working at a high speed of disintegrating our faith lives during these postmodern times.
Many centuries ago the clerical class removed the unifying power of the Holy Spirit from the many congregations in the West that was formerly made possible only through Assembly Life-where the Holy Spirit moved wildly among the congregation, every member arriving in a gestalt perception through what Organic Tradition (temporarily ossified by the clerical class) calls The Mind of Christ, every member seeing through the Eyes of the Holy Spirit, the pathetic little minds of radically autonomous minds, cleric and lay alike, falling away from our eucharistically purified minds like scales that sealed our radically reductive visions inside the parameters of Satan’s Circus, what John called “The World”, which in fact is The Mind of Satan.
It would help for us to return to the documents of Vatican II, where a division among clerics was made apparent: the bulk of the clerical class adamant that the Charismatic Movement was anathema-a lay crime-rebellion against their clerical guiding authority that was carved in theological stone (hammer and cycle theology) many centuries prior to the Council, a time when the clerical class became trapped in an all-consuming fear of individuals like Martin Luther and John Calvin, propagating endlessly autonomous rebels as a force aimed at destroying the Catholic Church, a proliferation they clearly still see in motion, with an accumulation presently beyond 40,000 different Christian expressions contemptuously pounding at the titanium-steel barred gates and windows of the One True Church, with clerics blindly lost in their fear-based indifference toward laity, seeing us as they have for centuries as inept, and not knowing that is because they denied us laity access to our missions and gifts by denying us Assembly Life where they are revealed to us in true, communal (Mystical Body of Christ) ATTENTION, what even secularists can see where the clerical class can’t by minds like Lain McGilchrist and Jordan Pererson.
And because the clerical class has refused, and continues to refuse, to restore Assembly Life, us laity have no choice but to sit idly by in our fear-based homes, with rosaries in hand, and watch Satan and his Legions continue in his Finale of the utter destruction of the greatest Civilization in all of Human History. What else can the fear-based clerical class do other than to restore ATTENTION by Restoring the Full Life of the Holy Spirit among us, ending the fracturing of that essential phenomenon?
This sounds like control to me
@@debralittle1341 Yes, as Pope Benedict XVI made clear in his 1960 book, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, the clerical class totally severed from the lay masses and has remained adamant in controlling laity so that they never have a voice in the discernment process of the Church, precisely why Catholic lay parents crying into the void about their chldren beiong sexually molested went on for at least 50 years, what only Pope Francis has been fighting against with his two Synods, and has encountered massive clerical opposition. Clerics are still convinced laity must be controlled and kept silent. That hasn’t changed, even though at Vatican II it became a prime objective to include laity in the discernment process, what Pope Francis’ Synods are all about, with universal clerical resistance still firmly in place, laity stil controlled into keeping silent.
Do you take drugs, to be this crazy?
You need to chill my man. I hope sinodality strengthens the faith. But we'll have to wait and see.
@@bruno-bnvm Laity have been chilling for centuries, satisfying the needs of clerical camaraderie; and now our chilled souls have turned lukewarm, both cleric and lay alike-how we easily remove the slaughter of the innocent from our sight, and prepare a pathway for Fr. Martin-Moloch’s delight.
Charismatics-how they gather and sustain the importance of the Holy Sprit’s presence in our lives as the Mystical Body of Christ-is a powerful remnant of what was cancelled by clerics many centuries ago: Assembly Life. This Assembly Life would follow Eucharistic Celebration, what you correctly reference as a time for silence/adoration and response to readings in spoken word or in song, as in the reading of the Psalms. And Jesus, reiterated by Paul (“Do not absent yourselves from the Assemblies!”), insisted we gather as Parish to discern together FOLLOWING Eucharistic Celebration, a time when our hearts, minds and souls are purified for radical discernment, as is the case after leaving the confessional room, only at a much wider angle and involvement by the entire Parish, those wishing to attend, what occurred even in the catacombs during the persecutions, vital as it was and still is, what the clerical class had long forgotten, stuck in a clerical hierarchy, not the hierarchy of the priesthood-a major difference.
That’s how vital those gatherings (assemblies) were, where every voice, cleric and lay, would be heard in discernment, and where our missions, and the gifts to complete those missions, would be revealed!
It’s rare today for any lay person to know what his-her missions and gifts are absent that discernment process that takes place in the wild movements of the Holy Spirit, what we are deprived of absent Assembly Life. Once Assembly Life is restored, as Pope Francis has been trying to do, the Charismatic Movement will no longer be necessary (it seems exaggerated displays, and even abuses occur, only because of how terribly lacking every Parish is in being moved by the Holy Spirit into action, and those yearning for the movement of the Holy Spirit among them start to rely on that movement, at the expense of drifting from Parish life in many cases, and why Vatican II insisted on a revival moved by the Holy Spirit who has been absent, what is called “lay formation and the new evangelization”, what cannot occur until Assembly Life is restored, and why after a half century we still have no lay formation and a new evangelization).
This is why clericalism in its hierarchical certainties excludes laity from dialog, turning parishioners into invisible men and women, failing in the original attitude of gathering in the Life of the Holy Spirit (“They will know your by your love for one another”, not in fractured groups, “small parish groups”, plagued by resentments): to initiate Vatican II’s insistence on establishing “lay formation and a new evangelization” that requires the restoration of Assembly Life, precisely why after more than 50 years there is no lay formation and a new evangelization anywhere other than in clerical lip service. This is the result of clericalism.
Jerome Buhman, in the September 9, 2021 issue of Homiletic and Pastoral Review, in an article titled “Clericalism: Problems Past, Present, and Future”, writes “Bishop Thomas Zinkula offered a simple definition of clericalism in an article in The Catholic Messenger: ‘Clericalism is an exaggeration of the role of the clergy to the detriment of the laity. In a culture of clericalism, clerics are put on a pedestal and the laity are overly deferential and submissive to them.’ (I would be remiss if I did not also point out that he includes bishops and deacons as clerics in this definition.)
“He goes on to note that, as Pope Francis points out, ‘clericalism is not only fostered by priests, but also reinforced by lay people.’ In addition, Zinkula says that clericalism may also affect ‘those preparing for ordained ministry as well as those serving as lay ministers.’ Father Donald Cozzens of John Carroll University describes clericalism as ‘an attitude found in many clergy who put their status as priests and bishops above their status as baptized disciples of Jesus Christ. In doing so, a sense of privilege and entitlement emerges in their individual and collective psyche. This, in turn, breeds a corps of ecclesiastical elites who think they’re unlike the rest of the faithful’.”
Perhaps a quote from Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger’s 1960 book, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, might bring some clarity:
pp 68-69: “The recognition that ekklesia (Church) and adelphotes (brotherhood) are the same thing, that the Church that fulfills herself in celebration of the Eucharist…compels us to celebrate the Eucharist as a rite of brotherhood in responsory dialogue [my emphasis]-and not have a lonely hierarchy facing a group of laymen each one of whom is shut off in his own missal or other devotional book. The Eucharist must again [like in the 1st century] become visibly the sacrament of brotherhood in order to be able to achieve its full, community-creating power [Assembly Life, as it was in the 1st century]."
The two secularists I referred to who have a purer sense of how the Holy Spirit moves in us than those of the Catholic clerical class:
ua-cam.com/video/mDbzUNNUMfg/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/uOXbnr1EIeo/v-deo.html