Anakin is extra frustrating I feel like because it's not just not talking to his wife, but not talking to his supposed best friend/father figure Obi-Wan. Idk if you've seen the finale of the Clone wars cartoon but it definitely side eyes that lack of communication and (intentionally imo) makes the viewer go "noo no, please go back and talk to him" rather than "well I guess that happened" Another great video as always
When you mentioned Hannibal as the dark mentor that mean you think I would love to see an RPG or you're the dark mentor maneuvering people in various ways for me that would be interesting
So another way I've heard this described is the seduction to evil, and as the name would imply you can use a romantic figure rather than mentor both in terms of character interactions and or in terms of story construction. You are right that when well done there is still some element of mentorship involved, but it can very much be secondary to the romantic story structure... though there is frequently no actual romance between the two characters. I have two counter examples for both TwoFace and Anikin and sadly they are both from cartoons, starting in the second or third season of StarWars the Clone Wars produced by Dave Filloni where we really start to see the character flaws that will lead to Anikin's fall, but they are presented in heroic fashion for instance in one episode the villain of the week is holding a detonator for a bomb and he kills him from behind and then gives a cheesy one liner, there are also numerous conversations between himself and Padme and significant relationship pressure stemming from the need for secrecy is depicted. The other is Harvey Dent's fall in the 1990's Batman the animated series produced by Bruce Tim, there we actually see Dent's ongoing psychological issues for most of the first season(MPD) and willingness to use dubious methods for what he see's as the greater good before he becomes a villain after his maiming. In all fairness however both of these examples had significantly more time to tell those stories which does make it somewhat unfair to compare shows with even a season to develop a fall against a film that has maybe 20 minutes to devote to that character arc.
The novelization of Revenge of the Sith also makes Annakin's fall better (though it doesn't fix the double dip problem, the double dip problem drives me nuts). And yeah, Harvey's fall has been done well. The problem as you say, is time. I don't think they should have tried to show Harvey's fall on screen, they just didn't have the time to do it justice.
@@JustInTimeWorldbuilding Ya if they had done dent in the film but not twoface and left him for the third film it probably would have been better, not sure if that decision had anything to do with Ledgers death.
Nox from Wakfu. When a villains motivation is so relatable that you can sympathize with their logic in doing what they do, that, for me, makes for an interesting character arc. Basically, Nox wants to rewind time in order to save his family, and the logic presented is that if he succeeds, then all the evil he's done to reach his end will be erased, so it's actually more evil for him not to succeed, because then all the bad he's done will have been for nothing.
One of the many painfull failings of Anakins corruption arc is that there is a hidden arc of Palpatine mastering the art of "krümmen" (to use the Stasi term) since the end of Phantom Menace.
@@VacuousCat- it needs the full 7 seasons of the Clone Wars just to make Anakin and Padme's relationship feel like something he would fall to.the dark side for. The best thing about the arc is Palpatine.
Love the video, and I do agree that Harvey Dent's story would have benefited greatly from having more screen time. But I do have a counter-argument for his fall to villainess falling rushed! From the beginning, he believes in his own truth: that Good and Justice always prevail. He finds the strength to keep fighting by seeing others fighting and winning in the name of good and justice. (namely Gordon and Batman) His demons try to tell him that Chance is more fair and more worthy of following. He entertains them by tossing a coin to make decisions. But he never fully listens to them, since he uses a rigged coin. But when he loses Rachel and is physically injured, he feels like he lost everything, while Gordon and Batman did not. It feels even more unfair since he was the one who warned Gordon about the corruption in the police force. His truth is shattered. Good and Justice do not always win, not even if you do everything right and sacrifice yourself. That is why and when he decides to give in and fully listen to his demons. He now makes his own decisions, and relies on Chance.
Enjoyed this a lot, especially as my main heroine turns to the enemy - not evil, just changes sides towards an enemy whom many regard as evil. I was i the process of making a few errors, so this was great foir me. Thanks Maree. AND... how can I save these member only videos onto my hard drive, like I can all the other non-member videos - can you look into a way for us to do this, so I can watch them while NOT online (and rewatch as needed).
Once the videos go public (this one is scheduled for 15 October), you'll be able to download them. I'll raise the ticket with Google again, but right now, there are restriction on member's only videos :(
I think Anakin's actions during the third movie was handled better in the novelization. He trusted Palaptine since Palpatine had positioned himself as a father figure to Anakin, and his desperation was only heightened because he was trying to do research but the Jedi wouldn't let him have access to files that he should have been able to access. As for why they didn't get Padme an abortion, the book makes it clear that they both want the kids more than anything. Kinda curious what you think of Horus Lupercal's fall. The reason is actually tragic and makes sense why he'd plan a rebellion but the books go too fast in turning him into a proper villain, in my opinion
The novelization is actually really well done. It doesn't solve the double dip problem (man that double dip annoyed me), but it does make Anakin's fall work. I haven't read the books on Lupercal, just the raw lore. The lore is good, fits well with 40K.
Sure, but on a slow spiral downward, not an instant drop from jedi to "now I kill kids". First it's a sideways deal for insulin, next it's a little job for insulin, then it's a bigger job, etc. etc.
I disagree with Harvey Dent character. His fiance was killed, his face scarred, but also he had a previous reputation for being someone who's two faced. His development made much sense since he'd lost so much trying to do the right thing.
![Anakin Skywalker Character Analysis [Part 1A] (Best Star Wars Character of All Time Series)](/img/n.gif)
Anakin is extra frustrating I feel like because it's not just not talking to his wife, but not talking to his supposed best friend/father figure Obi-Wan. Idk if you've seen the finale of the Clone wars cartoon but it definitely side eyes that lack of communication and (intentionally imo) makes the viewer go "noo no, please go back and talk to him" rather than "well I guess that happened"
Another great video as always
When you mentioned Hannibal as the dark mentor that mean you think I would love to see an RPG or you're the dark mentor maneuvering people in various ways for me that would be interesting
So another way I've heard this described is the seduction to evil, and as the name would imply you can use a romantic figure rather than mentor both in terms of character interactions and or in terms of story construction. You are right that when well done there is still some element of mentorship involved, but it can very much be secondary to the romantic story structure... though there is frequently no actual romance between the two characters.
I have two counter examples for both TwoFace and Anikin and sadly they are both from cartoons, starting in the second or third season of StarWars the Clone Wars produced by Dave Filloni where we really start to see the character flaws that will lead to Anikin's fall, but they are presented in heroic fashion for instance in one episode the villain of the week is holding a detonator for a bomb and he kills him from behind and then gives a cheesy one liner, there are also numerous conversations between himself and Padme and significant relationship pressure stemming from the need for secrecy is depicted. The other is Harvey Dent's fall in the 1990's Batman the animated series produced by Bruce Tim, there we actually see Dent's ongoing psychological issues for most of the first season(MPD) and willingness to use dubious methods for what he see's as the greater good before he becomes a villain after his maiming. In all fairness however both of these examples had significantly more time to tell those stories which does make it somewhat unfair to compare shows with even a season to develop a fall against a film that has maybe 20 minutes to devote to that character arc.
The novelization of Revenge of the Sith also makes Annakin's fall better (though it doesn't fix the double dip problem, the double dip problem drives me nuts). And yeah, Harvey's fall has been done well. The problem as you say, is time. I don't think they should have tried to show Harvey's fall on screen, they just didn't have the time to do it justice.
@@JustInTimeWorldbuilding Ya if they had done dent in the film but not twoface and left him for the third film it probably would have been better, not sure if that decision had anything to do with Ledgers death.
Nox from Wakfu. When a villains motivation is so relatable that you can sympathize with their logic in doing what they do, that, for me, makes for an interesting character arc.
Basically, Nox wants to rewind time in order to save his family, and the logic presented is that if he succeeds, then all the evil he's done to reach his end will be erased, so it's actually more evil for him not to succeed, because then all the bad he's done will have been for nothing.
The Smallville reference was spot on
I loved that show.
One of the many painfull failings of Anakins corruption arc is that there is a hidden arc of Palpatine mastering the art of "krümmen" (to use the Stasi term) since the end of Phantom Menace.
Anakin was a turn we felt
It needs 2003 clone wars to fill the plot
@@VacuousCat- it needs the full 7 seasons of the Clone Wars just to make Anakin and Padme's relationship feel like something he would fall to.the dark side for.
The best thing about the arc is Palpatine.
@@nagillim7915 not the 3D one, I'm talking about 2003 Clone Wars by Gendy Tartakovski
@@VacuousCat What are you talking about? :DD It was just a bunch of random spin-off stories.
My favorite Hero to Villain moment is the whole Arthas Menethil story from Warcraft 3.
Love the video, and I do agree that Harvey Dent's story would have benefited greatly from having more screen time.
But I do have a counter-argument for his fall to villainess falling rushed!
From the beginning, he believes in his own truth: that Good and Justice always prevail. He finds the strength to keep fighting by seeing others fighting and winning in the name of good and justice. (namely Gordon and Batman)
His demons try to tell him that Chance is more fair and more worthy of following. He entertains them by tossing a coin to make decisions. But he never fully listens to them, since he uses a rigged coin.
But when he loses Rachel and is physically injured, he feels like he lost everything, while Gordon and Batman did not. It feels even more unfair since he was the one who warned Gordon about the corruption in the police force. His truth is shattered. Good and Justice do not always win, not even if you do everything right and sacrifice yourself.
That is why and when he decides to give in and fully listen to his demons. He now makes his own decisions, and relies on Chance.
Enjoyed this a lot, especially as my main heroine turns to the enemy - not evil, just changes sides towards an enemy whom many regard as evil. I was i the process of making a few errors, so this was great foir me. Thanks Maree.
AND... how can I save these member only videos onto my hard drive, like I can all the other non-member videos - can you look into a way for us to do this, so I can watch them while NOT online (and rewatch as needed).
Once the videos go public (this one is scheduled for 15 October), you'll be able to download them. I'll raise the ticket with Google again, but right now, there are restriction on member's only videos :(
I think Anakin's actions during the third movie was handled better in the novelization. He trusted Palaptine since Palpatine had positioned himself as a father figure to Anakin, and his desperation was only heightened because he was trying to do research but the Jedi wouldn't let him have access to files that he should have been able to access.
As for why they didn't get Padme an abortion, the book makes it clear that they both want the kids more than anything.
Kinda curious what you think of Horus Lupercal's fall. The reason is actually tragic and makes sense why he'd plan a rebellion but the books go too fast in turning him into a proper villain, in my opinion
The novelization is actually really well done. It doesn't solve the double dip problem (man that double dip annoyed me), but it does make Anakin's fall work.
I haven't read the books on Lupercal, just the raw lore. The lore is good, fits well with 40K.
This is perfect for my caveman fantasy story. Betrayal is as old as time
Very true.
I think healthcare could be a great reason for a hero to go bad your kid needs insulin you make a deal with those that have it
Sure, but on a slow spiral downward, not an instant drop from jedi to "now I kill kids". First it's a sideways deal for insulin, next it's a little job for insulin, then it's a bigger job, etc. etc.
It was like the mafia slowly roping you in
I disagree with Harvey Dent character.
His fiance was killed, his face scarred, but also he had a previous reputation for being someone who's two faced. His development made much sense since he'd lost so much trying to do the right thing.
Either the fall from grace is gradual or it is to have a single cause. This seems a contradiction.
I'm not a huge fan of single cause falls :)