Walter White's fall into a ruthless kingpin is a great one. You can forgive his first kills since, as Mike on the show would say "they're in the game" and therefore signed up for it. The line is crossed when he let's something really bad happen and from that point on he's changed.
Side note: I'm glad they ended that show while it was hot. Seems like every other TV drama has to drag on for 8+ seasons and eventually become a parody of itself
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Not only are there falls along the way, there are falls and failure in his back story that planted seeds long ago, like the whole fiasco with he and his friend's company, (jealousy) his Nobel Prize worthy mind, wasted in a high school on ungrateful students (resentment), money issues that he knows he's too good for (overbearing pride) It's all carefully crafted to collapse !
My favorite fallen heroes are probably the ones you mentioned yourself in the video: Anakin and Michael Corleone. Their stories are so beautiful and believable.
One of my favorite fallen heroes I've ever read about is Paul Atreides (at least in the first Dune book, I haven't read any of the others). In the pursuit of survival, revenge, and power, he achieves victory over his enemies, but it costs him everyone and everything he ever cared about and turns him into a tyrant no better than the ones he replaced.
One of mine had a rather quick fall from grace and that is Mondego from Count of Monte Cristo. He was Edmond's best friend, there with him for thick and thin. His character flaw was jealousy. He had his opportunity to betray Edmond with the letter from Napolean to get Edmond arrested so that he could marry Edmond's fiance. His punishment was that he lost his fortune, his status/reputation, and eventually his life.
A lot of other writing channels are really good, but I'm finding that the info you provide in your videos is helping me much more than the others. You're the best! Thank you.
DEFENS from the film Falling Down. He starts as an ordinary guy (albeit one with extreme anger issues) who's fed up with everyday annoyances and decides to take matters into his own hands. Over the course of the story, however, his methods become increasingly extreme, and he eventually crosses the line when he murders a neo-Nazi pawn shop owner. At the ed of the film, he even asks the question "When did I become the bad guy"
Absolutely: of course it’s “been done” before. You’ve just gotta do it in an original way. There are very few completely “original ideas” out there. It’s about putting your twist on an established troupe in a new and exciting way.
Same question. I have a character who appears to be a good guy but keeps screwing up and botching operations and in the final moments it's revealed he's actually the bad guy and we've been duped all along. But it's so much harder to write. Things have to be visible thru both lenses. Plus, I don't which to use, first person doesn't seem to work.
@@TheMusicscottywhat about mixed point of view? The anta/protagonist being an unreliable narrator, the 2nd person view being the duped eventual victim (or appears to be the antagonist of the story but isn't), and some eye of God this person if necessary but possibly not required (like the old movies where at the end they would have captions like "X went on to become this and that, Y died in a crash" etc
Definitely. What would be better is if you add some moral ambiguity to it as well. If you've played The Last Of Us, keep reading this. A great example of this is in the ending of the The Last Of Us. Joel is told that Ellie has to die in order for the Fireflies to create a cure, however Joel is angered by this and eventually kills every Firefly he sees to get to Ellie and escape the hospital with her, as Ellie has become like a daughter to him and he can't go through the trauma of losing his daughter again, so you can understand his motivation completely, especially since you've been playing as him and have lived his journey throughout the game's story, but there are many that argue that Joel was the bad guy all along because of this. They've essentially travelled for ages to remove the chance of producing a cure, rather than their intention of actually producing a cure.
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty You really should! Even if Manga and anime is not your thing, Attack on Titan is very different. It's a master class on writing! I think you would really love it
Thanks for the video... I was planning for making a manga protagonist who was once promised to be the hero who will save the world and end up destroying it, and that's because of the great series BREAKING BAD... My favorite villain is Walter white (heisenburg) Because of him and vince gellegan's writing skills I wanted to make the new one piece but with a villain protagonist instead... thanks again you got my sub
Thanks! And Breaking Bad is such a great example of this. When I started watching the show, I never expected Walt to take such a dark path, especially considering his noble reasons for getting into the meth trade in the first place.
I have a friend who's been working on a character since his first year of middle school. He's 20 nowadays, and just now, he told me he had an idea that he might endure becoming a fallen hero, and it makes sense
One thing to keep in mind is that if the character started as a hero doing the right thing, they need to feel that they are doing the right thing through their story. If the hero becomes a cartoonish villain, it's not believable. Marvel Civil War is a good example of two heroes doing what they feel is right, where they both end up doing terrible things in the name of good. Cap beats the heck out of his friends and countless soldiers to save his mentality unstable and dangerous old friend. Tony is so blinded by revenge and fear of allowing bad things to happen he signs away so many things that protect those he cares about. They both clearly play the roll of bad guys, both hold true to their values, both could also be seen as the good guy because of their values, and both are shown to still be the hero they think they are when everything is done.
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty The interesting thing about the choices wasn't to change Walker's fate. It was to test YOU, the player. We were greeted to the helicopter scene in the beginning, telling us as we play the game; "No matter what you do, you will get to this scene", thus revealing that the journey was darker than we thought. The game tests our morality, asking us "What would you do if you were in this situation", showing us that while Walker is not a good person due to pressing forward with his obsession, it tells us that we are either a good person under fucked up situations, or we are flat out evil. Despite imagining what Walker would do, whatever you choose for him to do works because he is hallucinating all the events of his actions in Dubai until chapter 13. It's just a brilliant game due to those story elements.
@@riiddisbuk2496 Those are great points. I didn't think of it that way (probably because I've come to expect a certain level of choice in games these days), but you're spot-on. It's a lot like the ending of MGS3 where you have to perform a certain action, even though the game pretends to give you a choice (I won't spoil in case you haven't played MGS3)
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty At any rate, I don't know how to start writing my scripts and even make a great story. I have plenty of ideas, but I don't know how to make them engaging.
@@riiddisbuk2496 Start with a scene that engages the reader and makes them ask questions. Usually the opening scene can be considered a "story in miniature," meaning that the opener hints at what the main story will be like. Here's a recent video I did that explains it in detail: ua-cam.com/video/wPV1HLiKQ4g/v-deo.html
What about turned hero like kovu in lion king or the the lanester Brothers and the hound in game of thrones? (The ones that aren't also turned good by a girl)
Reformed Villains are another great trope. Jaime Lannister is my favorite GoT character for this reason. Audiences love to see that someone can correct their flaws and move on from past mistakes. There's also some lingering tension because you're always wondering if they might turn bad again (this is especially effective in spy thrillers).
I've beaten five Fire Emblems but haven't come across anyone named Arvis yet. I'm guessing the character is from Three Houses because that's the only major one I haven't played (not considering the Japan-only ones). Might be time to fire up my Switch
Agreed on Thanos and Vader, but I've never read/seen Narnia. Somebody in college told me that if you miss out on Narnia as a kid, you probably won't enjoy it as an adult. Not sure if that's true... any thoughts?
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Narnia is magic! "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" is the only book I've ever read where I finished reading the last page, and IMMEDIATELY turned back to the first page to read it again. OK, I was about 10, but I can't imagine any adult not liking it. Also, at nearly 62, I still check the backs of wardrobes in any new hotel room, or general guest bedroom I stay at. Another good children's book for adults is "Marianne Dreams" by Catherine Storr. Its villains are surprising! It was filmed for children's TV in the very early 1970s as "Escape Into Night", and in the 1980s as the film "Paperhouse" but the film does not follow the book as closely.
In addition to Harvey Dent/Two-Face, Don Michael Corleone, and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, I know 3 other fallen heroes: Saruman the White, Count Dooku, and Sinestro.
i would say something along the lines as person with ideologies that are wrong in most people's eyes and it was pushed upon them from their history.anyways my most favorite hero becoming a villain is darth vader.i don't know any others.oh wait the main characters dad in my story if that counts.i should figure out names for the characters.wait there is actually a lot like that basically any villain before they were a villain.my other favorite villain is griffith from berserk he is an amazing fallen hero i just noticed
Is there a specific reason why a Villain's story must end at all? In Batman, in the Joker's Arc, he keep returning as a Villain again and again. What would happen if you were to write a story where the Villain was never punished? What would happen if the Villain won? Could such a story become a great story? Is there a reason why no one seem to write this? (Although one could argue that the Darth Bane trilogy has the Villain win. But he never takes over the galaxy in his lifetime.) And if it is possible, how could one do it?
Villains sometimes do win or avoid punishment. But usually it comes at a cost of some sort (they lose someone/something they love, lose part of themselves, etc.)
I would say Final Fantasy 6 is a good example: *spoilers* Kefka absolutely wins by destroying the world and basically becoming a god. Defeating him in the end doesn't make up for what happened, nor does he really get punished (just like the Joker in The Dark Knight; even though he died in the end, he still won).
Can a character become a villain without completely becoming a villain? For example: a timeline where Anakin skywalker AND Darth Vader exist at the same time (obviously in another context than the Star Wars universe)
SPOILERS for Mi:2 I've always preferred villains tbh, they are far more interesting than heroes. Dougray Scott goes from ally to enemy at the start of Mi:2. There is no redemption for him at the end but Dougray Scott's performance is extremely witty and engaging.
New writer, enjoyed the video like the steps, so I can work on my villain and make them better. Had a good laugh at the villain doesn’t wake up one morning and kill 40,000 people says fuck OMG, Now that’s funny. Too many people in society want to reason why people do crazy things. Police officers never cared why you did it, just how you did it!
I liked both Gus and Walter from Breaking Bad. At least, until Season 5. Season 5 was the least compelling season and ruined Walter for me as a character. The first 4 seasons are great though.
Walt was always gonna become a villain, it’s just that season 5 was at Walt’s villain stage. And I don’t think we were ever supposed to root for Walt after all he’s done
Walter White's fall into a ruthless kingpin is a great one. You can forgive his first kills since, as Mike on the show would say "they're in the game" and therefore signed up for it. The line is crossed when he let's something really bad happen and from that point on he's changed.
I know the scene you're talking about. There are some other "falls" along the well. That's what makes him so compelling.
Side note: I'm glad they ended that show while it was hot. Seems like every other TV drama has to drag on for 8+ seasons and eventually become a parody of itself
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Well, he couldn't keep getting away with it.
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty
Not only are there falls along the way, there are falls and failure in his back story that planted seeds long ago, like the whole fiasco with he and his friend's company, (jealousy) his Nobel Prize worthy mind, wasted in a high school on ungrateful students (resentment), money issues that he knows he's too good for (overbearing pride)
It's all carefully crafted to collapse !
My favorite fallen heroes are probably the ones you mentioned yourself in the video: Anakin and Michael Corleone. Their stories are so beautiful and believable.
Yeah, I recently rewatched Godfather 1&2, and Michael's arc is mesmerizing to follow
For me, Anakin is da goat. 🐏
One of my favorite fallen heroes I've ever read about is Paul Atreides (at least in the first Dune book, I haven't read any of the others). In the pursuit of survival, revenge, and power, he achieves victory over his enemies, but it costs him everyone and everything he ever cared about and turns him into a tyrant no better than the ones he replaced.
I've been watching your videos recently as I've been planning a fallen hero story, and I am so glad you uploaded this. It is like you read my mind!
Haha nice, glad it helped! Another subscriber requested this video, so I must be drawing the Fallen Hero crowd these days
One of mine had a rather quick fall from grace and that is Mondego from Count of Monte Cristo. He was Edmond's best friend, there with him for thick and thin. His character flaw was jealousy. He had his opportunity to betray Edmond with the letter from Napolean to get Edmond arrested so that he could marry Edmond's fiance. His punishment was that he lost his fortune, his status/reputation, and eventually his life.
This is excellent in its simplicity, providing clear examples anyone could follow. Thank you so much
Thanks! Tomorrow I've got a similar video on Redemption Arcs, so stay tuned!
A lot of other writing channels are really good, but I'm finding that the info you provide in your videos is helping me much more than the others. You're the best! Thank you.
DEFENS from the film Falling Down. He starts as an ordinary guy (albeit one with extreme anger issues) who's fed up with everyday annoyances and decides to take matters into his own hands. Over the course of the story, however, his methods become increasingly extreme, and he eventually crosses the line when he murders a neo-Nazi pawn shop owner. At the ed of the film, he even asks the question "When did I become the bad guy"
Griffith from Berserk is the perfect embodiment of the fallen hero.
Great video, as always. I found myself taking mental notes. You have such great insights on villains. I love watching your videos.
Thanks Kammi!
This is perfect for this character I'm brewing up. Thank you so much my good sir!
Anytime. Best of luck with the writing!
From the anime I watch recently, and become my favorite.
Suguru Geto
Would it be a good plot twist if the protagonist reveals that he was the antagonist all along in the end?
It's been done before, but you can definitely use it if you execute it well.
Absolutely: of course it’s “been done” before. You’ve just gotta do it in an original way. There are very few completely “original ideas” out there. It’s about putting your twist on an established troupe in a new and exciting way.
Same question. I have a character who appears to be a good guy but keeps screwing up and botching operations and in the final moments it's revealed he's actually the bad guy and we've been duped all along. But it's so much harder to write. Things have to be visible thru both lenses. Plus, I don't which to use, first person doesn't seem to work.
@@TheMusicscottywhat about mixed point of view? The anta/protagonist being an unreliable narrator, the 2nd person view being the duped eventual victim (or appears to be the antagonist of the story but isn't), and some eye of God this person if necessary but possibly not required (like the old movies where at the end they would have captions like "X went on to become this and that, Y died in a crash" etc
Definitely. What would be better is if you add some moral ambiguity to it as well. If you've played The Last Of Us, keep reading this.
A great example of this is in the ending of the The Last Of Us. Joel is told that Ellie has to die in order for the Fireflies to create a cure, however Joel is angered by this and eventually kills every Firefly he sees to get to Ellie and escape the hospital with her, as Ellie has become like a daughter to him and he can't go through the trauma of losing his daughter again, so you can understand his motivation completely, especially since you've been playing as him and have lived his journey throughout the game's story, but there are many that argue that Joel was the bad guy all along because of this. They've essentially travelled for ages to remove the chance of producing a cure, rather than their intention of actually producing a cure.
Love your videos. Keep them coming. Bad parts is on my list.
Thrilled to hear! Thanks for watching, and I hope you enjoy BP!
Lon Chaney Jr. in "The Wolfman." Vincent Price in "The Fly."
This video helped so much with ideas of fleshing out my hero turned villain!
Awesome, thanks for watching!
Who is your favorite fallen hero? Let us know and be sure to mark for spoilers!
Eren Jaeger for sure. He's the best!
@@Fantomatika Haha I swear, all my subscribers/viewers are working together in order to get me to watch Attack on Titan
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty You really should! Even if Manga and anime is not your thing, Attack on Titan is very different. It's a master class on writing! I think you would really love it
@@Fantomatika I like Junji Ito's manga and I started watching Evangelion, so it's only a matter of time haha
Thanks for the video... I was planning for making a manga protagonist who was once promised to be the hero who will save the world and end up destroying it, and that's because of the great series BREAKING BAD...
My favorite villain is Walter white (heisenburg)
Because of him and vince gellegan's writing skills I wanted to make the new one piece but with a villain protagonist instead... thanks again
you got my sub
Thanks! And Breaking Bad is such a great example of this. When I started watching the show, I never expected Walt to take such a dark path, especially considering his noble reasons for getting into the meth trade in the first place.
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty me too
that's what makes that show a LEGEND!
@@takatsukiban4195 Yep, not enough tragic heroes in popular culture these days. It's a relatively underused trope that I'd like to see more of
I have a friend who's been working on a character since his first year of middle school. He's 20 nowadays, and just now, he told me he had an idea that he might endure becoming a fallen hero, and it makes sense
One thing to keep in mind is that if the character started as a hero doing the right thing, they need to feel that they are doing the right thing through their story. If the hero becomes a cartoonish villain, it's not believable. Marvel Civil War is a good example of two heroes doing what they feel is right, where they both end up doing terrible things in the name of good. Cap beats the heck out of his friends and countless soldiers to save his mentality unstable and dangerous old friend. Tony is so blinded by revenge and fear of allowing bad things to happen he signs away so many things that protect those he cares about. They both clearly play the roll of bad guys, both hold true to their values, both could also be seen as the good guy because of their values, and both are shown to still be the hero they think they are when everything is done.
Hal Stewart from Megamind.
Martin Walker from Spec Ops: The Line comes into mind.
I'm working on a story based on writing heroes that fall into the category of villains.
Great game! Kinda wish you had more control over their choices, but I loved the dark direction it took.
Best of luck with your story btw!
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty The interesting thing about the choices wasn't to change Walker's fate. It was to test YOU, the player.
We were greeted to the helicopter scene in the beginning, telling us as we play the game; "No matter what you do, you will get to this scene", thus revealing that the journey was darker than we thought.
The game tests our morality, asking us "What would you do if you were in this situation", showing us that while Walker is not a good person due to pressing forward with his obsession, it tells us that we are either a good person under fucked up situations, or we are flat out evil.
Despite imagining what Walker would do, whatever you choose for him to do works because he is hallucinating all the events of his actions in Dubai until chapter 13.
It's just a brilliant game due to those story elements.
@@riiddisbuk2496 Those are great points. I didn't think of it that way (probably because I've come to expect a certain level of choice in games these days), but you're spot-on. It's a lot like the ending of MGS3 where you have to perform a certain action, even though the game pretends to give you a choice (I won't spoil in case you haven't played MGS3)
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty At any rate, I don't know how to start writing my scripts and even make a great story. I have plenty of ideas, but I don't know how to make them engaging.
@@riiddisbuk2496 Start with a scene that engages the reader and makes them ask questions. Usually the opening scene can be considered a "story in miniature," meaning that the opener hints at what the main story will be like. Here's a recent video I did that explains it in detail:
ua-cam.com/video/wPV1HLiKQ4g/v-deo.html
Darth Vader is my personal favorite example of this trope, although this may be my nostalgia talking.
What about turned hero like kovu in lion king or the the lanester Brothers and the hound in game of thrones? (The ones that aren't also turned good by a girl)
Reformed Villains are another great trope. Jaime Lannister is my favorite GoT character for this reason. Audiences love to see that someone can correct their flaws and move on from past mistakes. There's also some lingering tension because you're always wondering if they might turn bad again (this is especially effective in spy thrillers).
Definitely got an idea for some my fallen heroes. Can't reveal those yet.
My favorite is probably Anakin (Starwars) or Arvis (Fire Emblem)
I've beaten five Fire Emblems but haven't come across anyone named Arvis yet. I'm guessing the character is from Three Houses because that's the only major one I haven't played (not considering the Japan-only ones). Might be time to fire up my Switch
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Arvis is one of the major antagonists in Fire Emblem 4, Genealogy of the Holy War (A Japan only game)
@@elegante8520 Gotcha! Heard great things about FE4. Hope Nintendo brings it stateside in the near future.
eren yeeeeeeeegeerrrr
Supermans turn in injustice gods amongst us is a good hero turned villian.
Jinx from Arcane. What an incredible transformation.
An example of a great villain is Thanos from Avengers. I also like Darth Vader, Queen Jadis from Narnia. 😎👍
Agreed on Thanos and Vader, but I've never read/seen Narnia. Somebody in college told me that if you miss out on Narnia as a kid, you probably won't enjoy it as an adult. Not sure if that's true... any thoughts?
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty
Narnia is magic! "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" is the only book I've ever read where I finished reading the last page, and IMMEDIATELY turned back to the first page to read it again. OK, I was about 10, but I can't imagine any adult not liking it. Also, at nearly 62, I still check the backs of wardrobes in any new hotel room, or general guest bedroom I stay at.
Another good children's book for adults is "Marianne Dreams" by Catherine Storr. Its villains are surprising! It was filmed for children's TV in the very early 1970s as "Escape Into Night", and in the 1980s as the film "Paperhouse" but the film does not follow the book as closely.
Mister Freeze in Batman the Animated Series.
In addition to Harvey Dent/Two-Face, Don Michael Corleone, and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, I know 3 other fallen heroes: Saruman the White, Count Dooku, and Sinestro.
What about the villain who becomes a hero?
Watch "Best Seller" (1987).
i would say something along the lines as person with ideologies that are wrong in most people's eyes and it was pushed upon them from their history.anyways my most favorite hero becoming a villain is darth vader.i don't know any others.oh wait the main characters dad in my story if that counts.i should figure out names for the characters.wait there is actually a lot like that basically any villain before they were a villain.my other favorite villain is griffith from berserk he is an amazing fallen hero i just noticed
Yeah, I'm obviously a big Vader guy myself. And it sounds like your story's dad had some Vader influence
Is there a specific reason why a Villain's story must end at all?
In Batman, in the Joker's Arc, he keep returning as a Villain again and again.
What would happen if you were to write a story where the Villain was never punished?
What would happen if the Villain won?
Could such a story become a great story? Is there a reason why no one seem to write this?
(Although one could argue that the Darth Bane trilogy has the Villain win. But he never takes over the galaxy in his lifetime.)
And if it is possible, how could one do it?
Villains sometimes do win or avoid punishment. But usually it comes at a cost of some sort (they lose someone/something they love, lose part of themselves, etc.)
I would say Final Fantasy 6 is a good example: *spoilers* Kefka absolutely wins by destroying the world and basically becoming a god. Defeating him in the end doesn't make up for what happened, nor does he really get punished (just like the Joker in The Dark Knight; even though he died in the end, he still won).
I disagree on stage 5. Stage 5 can also be the villain's victory
Can a character become a villain without completely becoming a villain?
For example: a timeline where Anakin skywalker AND Darth Vader exist at the same time (obviously in another context than the Star Wars universe)
SPOILERS for Mi:2
I've always preferred villains tbh, they are far more interesting than heroes. Dougray Scott goes from ally to enemy at the start of Mi:2. There is no redemption for him at the end but Dougray Scott's performance is extremely witty and engaging.
Oh Dae-su from Oldboy
New writer, enjoyed the video like the steps, so I can work on my villain and make them better. Had a good laugh at the villain doesn’t wake up one morning and kill 40,000 people says fuck OMG, Now that’s funny. Too many people in society want to reason why people do crazy things. Police officers never cared why you did it, just how you did it!
Glad it helped!
I liked both Gus and Walter from Breaking Bad. At least, until Season 5. Season 5 was the least compelling season and ruined Walter for me as a character. The first 4 seasons are great though.
Walt was always gonna become a villain, it’s just that season 5 was at Walt’s villain stage. And I don’t think we were ever supposed to root for Walt after all he’s done
Eren Yeager