The extreme usefulness of the demoralise action makes Desna's anathema against causing fear one of the most consequential ones in the game. Ooooh! Video idea. A tier list of the various Anathema of certain classes, based on how much they affect play.
I think Quickened was a bit underestimated here. While, yes, the Quickened action itself is restricted it's usually to something you were going to do anyway, so it really is getting a whole extra action of any variety. For instance, if your turn was going to be Demoralize -> Stride -> Strike. Getting Hasted lets you do the Stride as your extra action so you could, for example, Recall Knowledge -> Demoralize -> Stride -> Strike. The Quickened technically gave you an action to Stride or Strike, but in practice you got to Recall Knowledge where you weren't able to before.
I was thinking this. I'm playing a thaumaturge in a game right now and having the extra action from quickened means that I can more easily fit in my several other actions like Intensify Vulnerability, Feint, or use an action for an implement. Having quickened lets me do something I was going to do anyway, like strike and frees up an action for something else.
This! Currently playing a Warpriest of Ragathiel and while I haven't had access to it for very long, Haste has been _incredibly_ useful in terms of action economy. Stride->Strike->Cry of Destruction, 2-Action Heal*->Stride->Strike, 2-Action Heal*->Sure Strike->Strike, 2-Action Heal*->Strike->Raise Shield and Stride->3-Action Spell are but a few examples of that extra action making a world of difference. *can be any 2-Action Spell really, but Heal does tend to be the go-to one in situations where action economy matters most :P
It's inferred: Blinded -> Can't detect anything with Sight -> Everyone is hidden to you (if Sight is your only precise sense) -> You are Off-Guard to creatures hidden from you
@@SigurdBraathen pocket sand! Ok in reality there is very few ways for rogues to make a creature blind. Your best bet as a rogue for off guard besides flanking is via stealth, using deception for feints/creating diversions, or good ol' flanking.
Concealed needs more love. Concealed is the Rogue’s best friend. Yes, I have a 20% miss chance while in this smoke cloud, but I can also roll Stealth in hopes of gaining Hidden. Oh, you’re Dazzled? Now EVERYONE can try.
Hey idk if this is the right places, but your videos helped me a ton to get into pathfinder back in the OGL crisis, and it's now the art I feel the most passion and inspiration for. Your nonat november streams have also helped me a lot to fall asleep comfortably despite going through a really stressful time in my life rn. Thank you so much for being around
I just started playing back in July and I am obsessed with conditions! I have a bard with Esoteric Polymath so I usually use Frightened. Last session our thaumaturge got swallowed by an enemy so i used Vomit Swarm to make it Sickened and it saved him with like 3 hit points left! Definitely in my top 3 most stressful fights.
persistent damage is really underappreciated, every campaign I have played there has been atleast one deadly encounter that was decided by that trickle of constant damage because god knows there are sessions when noone can manage to roll above a 12, so barely anyone hits as that sword of damocles is approaching.
Fatigued can easily come up during days of travel; if the weather is anything but mild, even with proper clothing, a traveling character becomes fatigued after only 4 hours instead of 8, meaning you can get scarier encounters if you decide to power through the day instead of getting your pace cut by half. I think it's an interesting situation in which fatigued matters
The disposition conditions are great if you have players that make requests to NPCs as soon as they meet them or if they are told no by an NPC they just ask again. You have to game-ify social encounters for stubborn players. "I dont know what you want from me, the NPC is very Indifferent towards you. They are not taking any of your Requests at this time. Maybe if you Made a good Impression upon them that would change." I hate using game jargon too much but its better than having a social encounter go no where for 30 min to an hour
I will advocate grabbed is s or A tier. Reason is, it is immobile, so it prevents movement. Fun to do to fliers. Inflicting off guard is awesome as you dont need to flank. Yes the grappled has to do a flat check for manipulate actions. If you have a reactive strike, perfect. Additionally, although grabbed creatures can attack adjacent creatures without penalty, if they want to leave the square, they need to ESCAPE which is has the ATTACK trait and thus gives them a MAP. In other words, a grabbed creature can either attack you/adjacent while being off guard and having to do flat checks for manipulate but otherwise no other penalty, or attempt to escape and that gives a MAP for other attacks. Its is a great way to control who they can attack and what they can do since they are immobilized, have to deal with that flat check, have to be off guard and if they wish to get out have to suffer MAP on other attacks. Also on a crit they are restrained....which is s tier
I think that you're underestimating prone. If your party outnumbers the enemies, then trading one action of yours to trip to force an enemy to use one action to stand up is fantastic. Prone isn't as good against lower level enemies that outnumber your party. But against enemies your level or higher, it's a fantastic way to cost an enemy an action. Also, Barbarians, Champions, and Swashbucklers can get Reactive Strike with a feat at level 6. My level 5 Gymnast Swashbuckler is definitely taking that feat at level 6.
Fun notes about some of these conditions: 1) Broken applies to construct armor 2) Concealment can be applied to elemental barbarians' rage 3) Enfeebled is one of the worst conditions to receive at 1st level (Redemption Cause Champion) 4) Frightened is the most common condition to experience every tier of gameplay 5) Helpful/Friendly/Indifferent/Unfriendly/Hostile from this order can be skipped unless you charm a creature 6) Off-Guard will almost always apply to every creature, unless specified like Deny Advantage. 7) Persistent Damage can have reduced flat checks via specific abilities 8) Sickened is the worst condition to have as you can't ingest anything, but you can't reduce the condition unless you wretch up the vomit in your stomach 9) Stupified is the worst condition for spellcasters and focus casters.
Undetected the foe know you are somewere but no clue were (eg. you cast invisibility and sneek succefuly), unnotice they dont you even exist (that mean they tecnicaly can't even look for you)
I'm going to make an argument for Quickened for the same reason you mentioned in describing it. It gives you the movement you wanted on your turn. Suddenly, the caster can move away, recall knowledge to identify a weakness, AND cast a spell to capitalize. Martials now get some hits while moving and adding in an intimidation check. Much better than a B at the least.
Fun combo I have with the concealed condition: we are using dual class variant. I am a wizard/inventor, I am a human with the sylph heritage. The smogger item allows me to create smoke that follows me around for one minute. Anyone hitting me in melee must take the DC5 flat check but with smoke blending I can up the DC to 7. On my turn I cast Sure Strike to ignore my enemy's concealed condition and give me advantage on Megaton Strike for extra dices of damage. That is a nice little combo.
One way to easily apply broken is the Wealth Domain advanced spell, that can turn any metal to cheap copper, with no save, greatly reducing the hit points and hardness of any piece of armor, shield or weapon Another is the Decay Domain initial.spell
Hey Nonat, I'm jumping in the coments at 12:40. How you can put dazzled in higher than blinded, I don't get. They have the same caveat that if the target has other precise senses as vision, they don't work. Dazzled => DC5 flat check to hit anything (from concealment) and that's it. Blinded => DC11 flat check to hit anything + off-guard + any terrain is difficult + -4 to perception checks. It even says in the description of blinded that it overrides dazzled, implying that it's a strictly stronger versionof the same effects! Now sure, if you were to take into account the sources of these conditions, dazzled is way more accessible (area effects, no incapacitation etc.) but you specified that you don't do that in this tier-list. OOkay 27:48 , same with grabbed and off-guard. Grabbed is off-guard + 2 other effect, yet it gets A-tier while off-guard gets S? Feels like you're biased towards the effects we see more often, no?
The only way I can think of Fascinated being useful outside of some class specific stuff is if the whole group, except one poor fella, is on Stealth. You pull up the Timon and Pumba and start distracting the enemies telling how suculent you are, and the enemies will have a -2 to Seek. Sure, you are putting the fascinator at a great danger, but hey, it's useful!
Now, looking at Fascinated, I can see why "if [any] creature uses hostile actions against ... any of your allies" makes it hard to use in combat (it is okay if hostile actions against the person ends it, but remove the allies part you are probably can't paying attention to them because of the condition; not sure if dev test games found it overpowered before that clause). As it is now, the tactical use of Fascinated is to delay your turn until just before applying Fascinated on the enemy as your last hostile action against it, ideally a spell caster-type creature, becoming a spell tank (uncertainly, this is available on spellcasters or swashbucklers unless you are multiclassing) Though also few combat abilities that use Perception for defense. I was making plans for a Battledancer Fan Dancer swashbuckler before seeing the video; I now see how Enjoy the Show feat does the job better as a distraction tank than Focused Fascination in more situations.
With concealed i find the miss chance is the less useful part. Its forcing the enemy to roll reasonably well twice in a row making it harder to hit/crit on the actual roll. Seen so many 17+s wasted on the flat check. Another issue with controlled is things that inflict it are usually incap afaik The new holy champ subclass is great for dazzling things. Does no dmg, annoys your gm, makes the rogue happy (theirs comes with off guard with a feat) Frightened is almost a level drain
I will always reiterate that the Deafened condition is a bane to spellcasters. Since all speech has the auditory trait, and casting a spell requires the caster to speak in a strong clear voice, any spell that doesn't have the subtle trait auto fails when the caster is deafened.
not auto fail but flat dc 5 check similar to conceal but it also includes demoralize and point out so it can help stop enemies from pointing out your stealth players or adding to the frightened level.
@@NihilTruth in the CRB speaking has the auditory trait, and for spell casting with verbal components it says you need to speak clearly and strongly. So by this I would say verbal spells would be contingent on a flat dc 5 check. Unsure if they intend it this way or not but by RAW it seems so.
Broken also sucks to inflict on NPCs. Its why Disarm is so bad in most cases. NPCs only lose the weapon +1/+2/+3 rune and any property runes their weapon might have. If you disarm a ranged weapon though, they often are only stuck with melee. They still use roughly the same damage though. Same for AC, its only a 2 AC reduction.
Anyone else suffer from the "fascinated" & "confused" conditions while watching this video due to Nonat1s fingernails and low cut shirt? The effect was lessened after the video transitioned into picture-in-picture mode. Also... no chart to summarize your thoughts?
The extreme usefulness of the demoralise action makes Desna's anathema against causing fear one of the most consequential ones in the game.
Ooooh! Video idea. A tier list of the various Anathema of certain classes, based on how much they affect play.
I think Quickened was a bit underestimated here. While, yes, the Quickened action itself is restricted it's usually to something you were going to do anyway, so it really is getting a whole extra action of any variety.
For instance, if your turn was going to be Demoralize -> Stride -> Strike. Getting Hasted lets you do the Stride as your extra action so you could, for example, Recall Knowledge -> Demoralize -> Stride -> Strike. The Quickened technically gave you an action to Stride or Strike, but in practice you got to Recall Knowledge where you weren't able to before.
I was thinking this. I'm playing a thaumaturge in a game right now and having the extra action from quickened means that I can more easily fit in my several other actions like Intensify Vulnerability, Feint, or use an action for an implement. Having quickened lets me do something I was going to do anyway, like strike and frees up an action for something else.
This! Currently playing a Warpriest of Ragathiel and while I haven't had access to it for very long, Haste has been _incredibly_ useful in terms of action economy. Stride->Strike->Cry of Destruction, 2-Action Heal*->Stride->Strike, 2-Action Heal*->Sure Strike->Strike, 2-Action Heal*->Strike->Raise Shield and Stride->3-Action Spell are but a few examples of that extra action making a world of difference.
*can be any 2-Action Spell really, but Heal does tend to be the go-to one in situations where action economy matters most :P
"Blinded is Permanent Off-Guard"
Every rogue in the area fills their pockets with sand
Wait.. where does it say that?
@lincr.1988 he says it
It's inferred: Blinded -> Can't detect anything with Sight -> Everyone is hidden to you (if Sight is your only precise sense) -> You are Off-Guard to creatures hidden from you
In what ways can a rogue blind someone?
@@SigurdBraathen pocket sand!
Ok in reality there is very few ways for rogues to make a creature blind. Your best bet as a rogue for off guard besides flanking is via stealth, using deception for feints/creating diversions, or good ol' flanking.
Concealed needs more love.
Concealed is the Rogue’s best friend.
Yes, I have a 20% miss chance while in this smoke cloud, but I can also roll Stealth in hopes of gaining Hidden.
Oh, you’re Dazzled? Now EVERYONE can try.
Hey idk if this is the right places, but your videos helped me a ton to get into pathfinder back in the OGL crisis, and it's now the art I feel the most passion and inspiration for. Your nonat november streams have also helped me a lot to fall asleep comfortably despite going through a really stressful time in my life rn. Thank you so much for being around
I just started playing back in July and I am obsessed with conditions! I have a bard with Esoteric Polymath so I usually use Frightened. Last session our thaumaturge got swallowed by an enemy so i used Vomit Swarm to make it Sickened and it saved him with like 3 hit points left! Definitely in my top 3 most stressful fights.
persistent damage is really underappreciated, every campaign I have played there has been atleast one deadly encounter that was decided by that trickle of constant damage because god knows there are sessions when noone can manage to roll above a 12, so barely anyone hits as that sword of damocles is approaching.
It's also a PC killer, since it increases Dying when you're at or below 0 hp, so monsters that inflict it are dangerous.
Fatigued can easily come up during days of travel; if the weather is anything but mild, even with proper clothing, a traveling character becomes fatigued after only 4 hours instead of 8, meaning you can get scarier encounters if you decide to power through the day instead of getting your pace cut by half. I think it's an interesting situation in which fatigued matters
The disposition conditions are great if you have players that make requests to NPCs as soon as they meet them or if they are told no by an NPC they just ask again. You have to game-ify social encounters for stubborn players.
"I dont know what you want from me, the NPC is very Indifferent towards you. They are not taking any of your Requests at this time. Maybe if you Made a good Impression upon them that would change."
I hate using game jargon too much but its better than having a social encounter go no where for 30 min to an hour
I will advocate grabbed is s or A tier. Reason is, it is immobile, so it prevents movement. Fun to do to fliers. Inflicting off guard is awesome as you dont need to flank. Yes the grappled has to do a flat check for manipulate actions. If you have a reactive strike, perfect. Additionally, although grabbed creatures can attack adjacent creatures without penalty, if they want to leave the square, they need to ESCAPE which is has the ATTACK trait and thus gives them a MAP. In other words, a grabbed creature can either attack you/adjacent while being off guard and having to do flat checks for manipulate but otherwise no other penalty, or attempt to escape and that gives a MAP for other attacks. Its is a great way to control who they can attack and what they can do since they are immobilized, have to deal with that flat check, have to be off guard and if they wish to get out have to suffer MAP on other attacks. Also on a crit they are restrained....which is s tier
I believe shields frequently gain the broken condition
I think that you're underestimating prone. If your party outnumbers the enemies, then trading one action of yours to trip to force an enemy to use one action to stand up is fantastic. Prone isn't as good against lower level enemies that outnumber your party. But against enemies your level or higher, it's a fantastic way to cost an enemy an action.
Also, Barbarians, Champions, and Swashbucklers can get Reactive Strike with a feat at level 6. My level 5 Gymnast Swashbuckler is definitely taking that feat at level 6.
Also, there are variations of Reactive Strike on most martial classes which usually trigfer on movement, e.g. Stand Still.
Kinda weird that going from unnoticed to undetected requires you to be detected
Fun notes about some of these conditions:
1) Broken applies to construct armor
2) Concealment can be applied to elemental barbarians' rage
3) Enfeebled is one of the worst conditions to receive at 1st level (Redemption Cause Champion)
4) Frightened is the most common condition to experience every tier of gameplay
5) Helpful/Friendly/Indifferent/Unfriendly/Hostile from this order can be skipped unless you charm a creature
6) Off-Guard will almost always apply to every creature, unless specified like Deny Advantage.
7) Persistent Damage can have reduced flat checks via specific abilities
8) Sickened is the worst condition to have as you can't ingest anything, but you can't reduce the condition unless you wretch up the vomit in your stomach
9) Stupified is the worst condition for spellcasters and focus casters.
lol, so happy I suggested this. Best idea I have ever had
Undetected the foe know you are somewere but no clue were (eg. you cast invisibility and sneek succefuly), unnotice they dont you even exist (that mean they tecnicaly can't even look for you)
Now, NoNat, you're not going to go insane after all of this, are you?
Almost probably assuredly preposterously not.
I'm going to make an argument for Quickened for the same reason you mentioned in describing it. It gives you the movement you wanted on your turn. Suddenly, the caster can move away, recall knowledge to identify a weakness, AND cast a spell to capitalize. Martials now get some hits while moving and adding in an intimidation check. Much better than a B at the least.
Love hearing "Live and Learn" in the background for the S-Tier
Fun combo I have with the concealed condition: we are using dual class variant. I am a wizard/inventor, I am a human with the sylph heritage.
The smogger item allows me to create smoke that follows me around for one minute.
Anyone hitting me in melee must take the DC5 flat check but with smoke blending I can up the DC to 7.
On my turn I cast Sure Strike to ignore my enemy's concealed condition and give me advantage on Megaton Strike for extra dices of damage.
That is a nice little combo.
One way to easily apply broken is the Wealth Domain advanced spell, that can turn any metal to cheap copper, with no save, greatly reducing the hit points and hardness of any piece of armor, shield or weapon
Another is the Decay Domain initial.spell
Broken comes up often in my games. It is what balances Shield Block.
Hey Nonat, I'm jumping in the coments at 12:40. How you can put dazzled in higher than blinded, I don't get. They have the same caveat that if the target has other precise senses as vision, they don't work.
Dazzled => DC5 flat check to hit anything (from concealment) and that's it.
Blinded => DC11 flat check to hit anything + off-guard + any terrain is difficult + -4 to perception checks. It even says in the description of blinded that it overrides dazzled, implying that it's a strictly stronger versionof the same effects!
Now sure, if you were to take into account the sources of these conditions, dazzled is way more accessible (area effects, no incapacitation etc.) but you specified that you don't do that in this tier-list.
OOkay 27:48 , same with grabbed and off-guard. Grabbed is off-guard + 2 other effect, yet it gets A-tier while off-guard gets S? Feels like you're biased towards the effects we see more often, no?
Fascinated has that last sentence so that GMs can't jerk their players about with it.
While it technically isn't a condition, I feel Bon Mot should be one, and am curious how it would be ranked.
Immobilized cant be as good as Grabbed, as grabbed also gives immobilized AND other stuff.
The only way I can think of Fascinated being useful outside of some class specific stuff is if the whole group, except one poor fella, is on Stealth. You pull up the Timon and Pumba and start distracting the enemies telling how suculent you are, and the enemies will have a -2 to Seek. Sure, you are putting the fascinator at a great danger, but hey, it's useful!
Now, looking at Fascinated, I can see why "if [any] creature uses hostile actions against ... any of your allies" makes it hard to use in combat (it is okay if hostile actions against the person ends it, but remove the allies part you are probably can't paying attention to them because of the condition; not sure if dev test games found it overpowered before that clause). As it is now, the tactical use of Fascinated is to delay your turn until just before applying Fascinated on the enemy as your last hostile action against it, ideally a spell caster-type creature, becoming a spell tank (uncertainly, this is available on spellcasters or swashbucklers unless you are multiclassing) Though also few combat abilities that use Perception for defense.
I was making plans for a Battledancer Fan Dancer swashbuckler before seeing the video; I now see how Enjoy the Show feat does the job better as a distraction tank than Focused Fascination in more situations.
with prone they have to spend 1 acction to stand up so not too bad even if you do not have retributibe attack
With concealed i find the miss chance is the less useful part. Its forcing the enemy to roll reasonably well twice in a row making it harder to hit/crit on the actual roll. Seen so many 17+s wasted on the flat check.
Another issue with controlled is things that inflict it are usually incap afaik
The new holy champ subclass is great for dazzling things. Does no dmg, annoys your gm, makes the rogue happy (theirs comes with off guard with a feat)
Frightened is almost a level drain
Thanks for the video!!
I will always reiterate that the Deafened condition is a bane to spellcasters. Since all speech has the auditory trait, and casting a spell requires the caster to speak in a strong clear voice, any spell that doesn't have the subtle trait auto fails when the caster is deafened.
DC 5 flat check, not an auto fail. It makes it harder, but it won't turn spells off completely.
not auto fail but flat dc 5 check similar to conceal but it also includes demoralize and point out so it can help stop enemies from pointing out your stealth players or adding to the frightened level.
I don't know where people got this disinformation from
You are correct, I misremembered. It is still a debilitating condition to inflict on any casters.
@@NihilTruth in the CRB speaking has the auditory trait, and for spell casting with verbal components it says you need to speak clearly and strongly. So by this I would say verbal spells would be contingent on a flat dc 5 check.
Unsure if they intend it this way or not but by RAW it seems so.
Any Otherscape coverage in the future?
Broken also sucks to inflict on NPCs. Its why Disarm is so bad in most cases. NPCs only lose the weapon +1/+2/+3 rune and any property runes their weapon might have. If you disarm a ranged weapon though, they often are only stuck with melee. They still use roughly the same damage though. Same for AC, its only a 2 AC reduction.
You could honestly make the case that the entire purpose of the game from a mechanical standpoint is to trade conditions with enemies.
Anyone else suffer from the "fascinated" & "confused" conditions while watching this video due to Nonat1s fingernails and low cut shirt? The effect was lessened after the video transitioned into picture-in-picture mode. Also... no chart to summarize your thoughts?
I wish quickened was allowed to be cool
Just confuse the fascinated creature and it will no longer have any allies
Sorry what? Quickened gives me an extra action and it's B? Poppycock I say!
You wrong about how hidden works
What, no S/A/B/C/D chart?!? =D
Grabbed underrated. @swingripper I summon you
You have an oppai anime mouse pad?
Blame twitch chat.
@@Nonat1s .... Sure dude. lol