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A HUGE MISTAKE in MMOs
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- This episode and more at www.thebrazenh...
The Brazen Hydra Episode 25: • 25-Competitive PvP in ...
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Hell yeah I completely agree, sacrificing lore and in game immersion is never worth it for getting invested in a world.
On The topic of goofy looking armor, I’d recommend looking at the way Guild Wars 2 does transmogs. They have a system where you can not only choose what your armor looks like but you can dye it whatever color you want. They also have a wide variety of outfits, some which are silly but most of which look cool as hell. There is also a toggle for outfits and regular gear so if you want to look like a random citizen, a farmer, or a chef you can but you can very quickly switch back to your regular armor.
I remember playing the newest Terra MMO (quite a while ago), I was playing for 2 hours tops and then seeing a guy come up in a sports car as a mount. Needless to say I logged off and did not came back. I kinda disliked Legion for the same reason, although many found it a great expansion... exploration was very tiny, and the Legion itself having basically starships... I mean how is Azeroth beating starships? Steamtanks and gyrocopters used to be top of the line equipment and they essentially became obsolete.
I think a good way to do it is something like wow's toy system. You can make it a buff that applies and if you enter combat or an instance it removes the buff and you can't reapply it in those zones.
Restrictions make character choices more important
I get this feeling on guild wars2 dude holy f, man in one side you see a giant dude with an axe and metal armor ready for battle then you look the other way there is a dude with flip flops and sun glasses and a green t shirt. I mean its funny but it breaks imersion
I love the world of gw2, but it is weird when you're talking around some sleepy village with quaint windmills and gentle music playing in the background, and then some glowing disco ball or anime anti-hero swoops in on a dragon. It's a little more tolerable in gw2 for me than wow, cause gw2 was always a bit faster paced, more sunshiny and fun than wow to me, but it's still really to the games detriment I think.
Answering one of the things that was questioned in the video
In WoW you have the Yeti costume, In final fantasy you can dress as a catfish, a chocobo and as a frog and they all look dumb, not to mention the classic armored bikinis you can get from Dzmael a level 40- something dungeon if I'm not mistaken and the newly added fem Hrothgar which are just coomer furry bait.
You can also play as extremely rare classes lorewise such as Black and White mages, Summoners with more than one Primal and stuff like that, so the world bends to the player's will which honestly I don't mind that much.
Now an MMO with a very complex lore having Lightforged Warlocks is a massive disrespect to the lore, specially the Draenei, the people that escaped their planet due to the demons, were enslaved by the orcs because of a warlock and they were sacrificed in mass by the same warlock to create the dark portal, it's not just bad, it's disrespectful to a story that has been in motion for over 30 years now.
This was already a problem decades ago with Noggenfogger Elixir.
Could be resolved by having class specific training areas, if you're class and background don't clash, then you can choose, otherwise you're restricted to only choosing the class specific training area
First 10 minutes is an unintentional commentary on multiculturalism
Restricting players is part of what makes a game a game. Unless you're specifically setting out to make some sort of world-builder type of game, restricting player choice is part of what creates the aesthetic, tone and themes of the game. Take those restrictions away and you have meaningless mush.
I think another aspect that I feel MMOs like WoW miss out on with their huge lore is immersion for your characters which you guys touched upon.
For example, the Orcs. They were made up of many clans, but you always start in Orgrimmar and you are just an Orgrimmar orc (unless you play as Maghar nowadays). It would be cool if you could select a clan you hail from like Frostwolves, Warsong, Bleeding Hollow or Blackrock to name a few. We have questline with those same clans who are officially part of the Horde but it really feels you have little in common with them since they have their own identity and always treat you like an outsider in their dialogue. It would be cool if they treated you a little differently depending on which clan you selected.
Same for baseline Human players. You could be a Stormwinder, a Lordaeron refugee or an Arathi from Stromgarde. Battle for Azeroth kinda highlighted how disconnected I felt with the world playing as a Gilnean Worgen, hailing from a human kingdom that has its own cool storyline. In that expansion you could now create Kul Tiran human and have your own thing goin on there while other nations kind of felt left out.
Same with Trolls, you have multiple different tribes, many of them small but some bigger. But you can only play as a Jungle Troll (Darkspear) or as the Zandalari. You can't play as a Forest Troll despite tribes like Revantusk being part of the Horde.
I think little tweaks of flavors like these being addressed could also help breathe new life into the world and add more immersion.
Y’all people are the not fun type of nerds
the light in wow is a hard one... some aspects you COULD be a bit demonic with a bit of light, you could 100% bend the light to your will, Light isnt strictly good nor evil. Some paladins have that blockage when they do something good BUT feel like its bad, so like if you were a paladin and you did something good like help an enemy but in your head you're like i did something BAD, that can actually stop your usage of the light... BUT lets say you're a twisted paladin and do something BAD but in your head you think its good, you can still call the light. The light in essence has no moral guidance, it only goes off YOUR moral guidelines. so all and all, you could be a lightforged draenei warlock, your characters mindset has to be in the right place.
I actually had this argument with someone the other day. He was offended by the story of Yrel in the Maghar recruitment quest and started saying that the Light makes him feel bad and that Paladins should have a void alternative.
Like why? Why do we need to just upend the lore to appeal to people that don’t actually care about the lore?
Like who asked for Tauren Warlocks? Actually though. Same thing for this guy asking for a Void Paladin. What Paladin mains are asking for that?
If you want to expand choice, there needs to be some legitimate lore reason behind it. Like how Blizzard is toying with Darkspear Paladins. It would make sense after reconnecting with the Zandalari and the rebirth of the Loa of Kings as Vol’jin it actually makes LESS sense to not have Darkspear Paladins.
But then you have Tauren Warlocks; like my guy how do OUR playable Tauren even reckon with the fact that their magic effectively destroys what their culture holds dear.
Yeah they can be Feltotem, but like if they are why are they called Highmountain Tauren then, because Highmountain is the tribe, Feltotem is the tribe.
This is just another case of Steve Danuser not fucking getting IT
All the people that cared about the lore left the game behind. Only tourists and gay twitter furries remain. They are now the target audience.
@@gladjohnson3117 what’s funny is your response was the actual catalyst for him wanting Void Paladins.
His words “As a gay man I have a hard time really enjoying the light now. I rerolled from a Paladin because of that.”
Like my guy, if it took 16 years and your modern political brain to realize the Light isn’t default GOOD then I don’t know what the fuck to tell you.
The Scarlet Crusade are genocidal maniacs. The Blood Elves literally siphoned a Naaru so hard the thing basically imploded. Xe’ra tried to force the light on Illidan.
But I guess devoted zealotry scares progressives because it’s principled resistance from those who staunchly believe what they’re doing is right.
That’s fucking interesting and cool, but nope grey sludge it please XD
@@edwardweaver6869 I SOMEHOW had a suspicion that in might have been the case. Ran into the type back when I was playing, right before dropping WoW entirely. Always the same patterns of behaviour, always either lgbtbbq+ or a psychopathic liberal woman. They treat fiction like real people and treat real people like they are fiction. And then they wonder why less and less people want to play the game.
@@gladjohnson3117 I personally love a great variety and diversity in cultures that are explored and respected. Differences are what bring us together but *shrug* if everyone is the same why do we need to work together?
I’m all for proper representation but there hits a point where it becomes over-represented and I know a lot of Gay Gamers who also agree with me (a bisexual man) that we’re hitting the point of over representation in the modern era.
the diversity between races and cultures and how those people reconciled or conflicted was VERY interesting; with almost every party involved being respected at some level.
Alliances could be formed and broken, we could still justify World PvP from a lore level and it made the Alliance and Horde banding together for a common cause a momentous occasion worth remembering .
I look at the real world to draw inspiration for some of the stories I write and large in part what drives human conflict is resources and being incapable of letting go of the past and in a world like Azeroth full of such over the top personalities being incapable of letting go of past transgressions I feel would be harder. How do people who survived the razing of Ashenvale by a Horde not completely fallen to Garroshes whims reconcile even working with those same enemies who destroy all they hold sacred? People forget Cataclysm wasn’t as far away as the First or Second Wars. Our characters fought in that conflict. It makes no sense.
There already a dark paladin class, it's called death knights.
Giving every race every class is the most stupid idea unless it was designed like that from the very beginning. Warcraft never had this "everyone can be anything" crap. Some things were not only race restricted, like only male night elves being druids and only females being priestesses.
I hate pijama/beach skins, suits, mogs.... I wanna fantasy feels like one...
I don’t mind swimsuits as long as they look thematically appropriate. So the PJs are a miss, the last trading post Ensemble was fine IMO.
I played through the Goblin starting experience; so the swimsuit actually doesn’t bother me and fits aesthetically.
I've wanted MMo's to have a 'do not display other's cosmetics' toggle. Or ideally, a list where you can just go 'anything not lore fitting I do not see'.
In FFXIV they invented an in lore excuse to let the player become classes that have been heavily restricted in the story, and even though it's perhaps a little immersion breaking when you do all classes in one character, i find it really great when it's only two or three. The thing is i prefer this over just not explaining and having no excuse that is full dissonant.
BUT the thing that may be more dissonant is the Race, since it really doesn't make any difference other than appearence i think it's better forgiven than when it is dependant to where you start and extra racial skills. Here's just like an introduced lost soul in the form of one of the races, rather than a member of the communities
Ok but what about a light forged shadow priest? Are you gonna ban a spec for 1 race? Should we increase which races can be demon hunters? Not like they cant at this point what stops a dwarf from going to an ally dh and asking to learn how to become on as well.
It's like they wanted to add the goofy shit you could add in Skyrim with mods but it doesn't work in an MMO because you can't turn it off once it's in the game. Nobody is going to come back to WoW for a stupid looking onesie, nobody is going to go "hmm well I was going to play Fortnite but can you believe WOW added the same type of cosmetic?!"
I get your point and it does break traditional expectations and tropes, but Lightforged Draenei warlocks don't contradict the lore of Warcraft as it is currently established, as lame as it may be. Fel isn't the opposite of Light, Void is, and Fel is Light and Void clashing. Lightforged Draenei waged a war against the Burning Legion, a faction made up of fel users, but not against Fel as a cosmic forces. And in Shadowlands it's shown that the Legion was caused by forces of Death, not Fel and it's all but outright stated that Fel was ordered by the First Ones just like all other forces and it must be ruled over by a pantheon similar to the Titans and the Eternal Ones. The same rationale that was used to justify Draenei shamanism (something that was seen as barbaric and pagan) also applies to warlocks.
You guys are wrong. Light and Fel are NOT polar opposites. The polar opposite of Fel is Arcane and the polar opposite of Light is Void.
EPIC FAIL
Part of the problem is they keep catering to children no body wants to acknowledge that the loudest players are the kids
Fel isn't Demonic by nature, it's simply a powerful destructive magic source the Demons prefer to employ. That's like saying Arcane is "good guy magic" because Khadgar prefers it over Fire or Ice. It's simply a tool used by magic practitioners. A Lightforged Draenei makes perfect sense. They're protected by the Light so much they cannot even consider being lured in by Demonic influence and can safely cast from the pool. A lesser person would succumb to the influence over time, noted by most Warlocks being insane or evil in nature.
In that sense, a Tauren would make for a good Warlock as well, knowing when enough is enough and not overloading an area with Fel in attempts to maintain a natural balance of magic within an ecosystem.
Night Elves aren't restricted to just Nature magic, Lightforged aren't restricted to just Light magic, Undead aren't restricted to Necromancy. That would just be silly. There have been notable Night Elves that excel at Arcane studies, there's been an Undead Priests since the game came out. There's no argument to be had here, you just don't like it and that's fine, but don't paint it like it doesn't make sense when there's plenty of lore reasons why it does.
A fair amount's explained in the Warlock only questchain in the offseason Darkmoon Fair. Tauren who's been expected to follow the family tradition of shamanism but the spirits aren't responding? Draenai who's tired of each time when they call upon the Light to save them, only saves enough for them to keep going and wants to be able to save everyone? Night Elf highborne who wants more magic beyond the arcane? Fel will accept anyone. It's down to does the person have the strength of will to resist falling to madness.
The Light and the Fell weren't opposite. The Light and the Void are opposite. The Fell is the opposite of Nature if I recall correctly.
For years it wasn’t that way. The fell were the burning legion which was the enemy of the light. No one had any idea about the void until 5 years ago. The void in and of itself is a retcon
Fel is the power of chaos and therefore the opposite of order (titans). Nature is the domain of life and its opposite is Death aka power of death knights and the power in the shadowlands
@@beliondil6942 Yeah-- unfortunately it isn't as easy as "order" or "chaos". Light isn't "order" and its opposite is the void.
Fel is more about destruction and both light and dark utilize destruction while nature is about growth and evolution-- and both light and dark use that too.
So as much as you might want to simplify this to "angels" vs. "demon"-- that's just not how the Warcraft elemental chart breaks down.
In fact, the Fel seemed to have been created from the Light given that Sargeras, the most aggressive Light Titan, is the one who started the Legion in response to discovering the influence of the Void Lords/Old Gods.
Then the Devs and Art department need to make gear look appealing to the wearer, the reason Transmog is a big thing is because the set designs are shite now
I love MMO lore but I'm not fixated on the devs keeping it completely inflexible. I think this take is dumb.
Wow currently looks like a children's game. But I'm not surprised, dumb cosmetics sell, probably enough that for Blizzard it's worth killing the immersion for dumb looking cosmetics.
10 years or less people stop buying ALL of this shit
agreed. they could easily cut the available classes for every race in half and it would be good. the only ones where having everything KINDA makes sense are humans and undead, given that humans are the most average joe race and undead are just.. humans but unfortune.
relinquishing immersion for accessibility is a stupid move, always has been. kinda like they gave up on buying the skills and weapon skill.
All races can be any class because it's fun. If you don't like it cause there's no lore reason you're a nerd.
These guys REEEALLLYY shouldn't talk about wow lore...they very painfully don't know shit about the lore
I don't see the problem. If I as a player want to be a lightforged draenei that turns warlock, why shouldn't I be able to? The only part I'd agree with is that this is wrong in the way you create and level your character in terms of lore, but there's no way wow can fix this. Ideally I'd start a character without class and just a race, and take a path to pick a class from there through means of lore, but that's simply impossible with WoW right now.
Every class choice can be justified through Lore, but making this process playable for every class for every race is a feat that takes up so much time, I'd rather have this time spent on player housing or something that actually matters at end-game.
Yeah they're not arguing it can't exist, they're arguing that without the world giving context to it existing, the player being given some logical path to being that class and race combo... then why is there. They're demanding effort be put in rather than shoehorning it in for freedom reasons.
@@Ryusola This. It’s why Manari Eredar and expanding Blood Elf eye colors wasn’t really hated on.
We were given a quest to recruit the remaining eredar to the Alliance and the existing Draenei faction.
Blood Elves have had a restored Sunwell for almost 20 years and began leaving Quel’Thalas and it makes sense they have found alternatives to their fel addiction.
Blood Elf Monks showing Nature, Arcane or Light Magic in their eyes.
Cause lore-wise it would probably cause you pain to use these energies. Back in the day it was said that undead priests, if they were to use holy magic, would feel pain as well.
Also it's just stupid. Not only lightforged warlocks, but lightforged in general, an asspull of subrace that never should have been made. Eredar deserve to be a separate race, but apparenly they are just a customization for regular draenei. You can't fix all that crap, it's beyond saving.