It’s like renting a car after a racecar driver tried it out on a track - to failure (a few drivers lost access to rental cars for doing this repeatedly, back in the day).
John, as an example: a 240v 2400w motor has a power fact or of around 0.8, therefore it draws (2400/0.8/240) =12.5 Amps . A single phase motor can draw from 6 to 7 times its rated current on start up.
yes, but that surge at the start is very short lived unless its under heavy load. inverters can also supply a lot more than their rated amount for a short time. the problem is often the manufactures ratings are bigger than what the inverter really is.
Worst scenario in a disaster is the electricity is out and now you have flattened your EV battery too. For less than $1k you can buy a 5kW generator that will not have this problem. Heck, it could even give your car a bit of a top off, charging at about 20km per hour. Sounds cheaper and lower drama than buying the V2L feature. But EV drivers seem to live for drama...
@fc7424 Not if they want some electricity to charge their phones and their craptops 😉. At that point, people have other things to worry about rather than my nice quiet generator steadily purring away in the background. Or better yet, don't have neighbours within earshot. It's lovely 😀.
Maybe a backyard physics talk about inverters, capacitive and reactive loads, power factors and discharges from the collapsing magnetic fields from when you let go of the trigger on your welder.
@@andrewallen9993 interesting, I always thought my welding was terrible because I have no skill, not the archaic welder I inherited from my grandfather. I guess I could upgrade it but I could probably get better results by upgrading the operator.
We recently had a 36 hour power outage and my Bluetti x2 did a perfect job, the first one was drawn down from 100% full to 20% full in 25 hours and the next one 100% to 52% for the next 11 hours, mostly day time with TV's, fridges and kettles running.
Hey@@andyharman3022 , they cost me about $2000 1 years ago on special, they are both 2.4Wh units. They are build very well and I use one in my boat too. They are great for 4x4 fitouts as well.
I wouldn't be worried about the RCD protection aspect because even if you licked the live wire from the cars inverter, it not being earthed, means you aren't completing the circuit through ground. That is if you aren't touching the cars chassis while licking earth. However, active on one nipple and neutral on the other, well I wouldn't recommend that one, and an RCD wouldn't save you there anyway.
John , I'm worried for all the harmless bugs around your home . To save them and possibly lengthen your 'fuse' , mabey change coffee brand ! You remind me of when I've had too many STRONG ones . Great presentation my man !
With AC systems, phase angle matters. 250V AC @ 16A = 4000VA. It equals 4000W if and only if the angle between current and voltage is zero degrees (i.e. a purely resistive load).
I was a salesman at a BMW dealer a good while ago, and we used to take a demonstrator to track days. I was also in charge of the Lexus Customer Care (complaints) Center for three years. We were always invited to new model launches when the press got to drive them. And they always went to the limit, usually at Eastern Creek. Most were given to the dealerships to be used as demos. Most were on trader plates too, so the kms were always dodgy. Most were less than 5000kms and an oil change and new tyres disguised the short but brutal history.
My first thoughts were that there might be a risk of the car catching fire, which might have been a disappointment being close to the house. A few years ago, we needed to run a 15a welder away from a grid supply. Whilst generally available generators were rated high enough to cope with the steady load, some research determined we'd actually need a much bigger one, costing around £1200. Knocked that project on the head.
@@nigelcox1451 true but arc was all we had in the old days, gasless mig or flux wire needs the polarity reversed, gased mig does not like wind but arc will work anywhere.
Interesting welder addendum to your story John, I recently had circuit board work done on my house and afterwards the 10 amp plug 'newish' Inverter mig welder was popping the new 16A breaker they put in. When the sparky put a clamp meter on the cable at the breaker, my 10A welder was pulling 36 amps while welding! He said the breakers are rated to pull double their rating for 2 minutes before tripping.
As a Kona owner, if the '24 version is the same as the '21 then you put the car into utility mode. HV battery is active but the car will not go into drive, to exit utility mode you have to turn the car off then on again.
So I guess we can assume that at startup your welder drew considerably more power that the rated output of the inverter in the Kona. Really looks like this was a user generated problem rather than an issue with the Kona 240V inverter output.
In a world that's gone full Mad Max I feel there would be a tendency to hang on to every bit of charge in the car. The outcome of this would be to not use the car ever again, either for travelling or home electricity because it probably could never be recharged.
There is an assumption here around the location of the EV when said flood occurs, if it happens when the EV is away from the property and said EV does not have a 'boating function' (007 style) then the V2L function won't be much use. A petrol generator with push button start that will do around 6kw can be had for around $1200. Pro tip, don't get the ones that look overgrown plastic freezers formed from a single mould, nightmare to service, you want one you can see the mechanism. When the thing won't start because of a loose wire, being able to see the wire and put it back in a second is a big plus.
If flood is a real risk, you can put the genset on a raised platform somewhere higher than EOTWAWKI flood level. But if your house can flood before the genset....
The old European standard was 220v. Aus/NZ/Pacific & UK was 240v. While 230 seemed like a smart middle ground, most manufacturers of 220v stuff didn't change. 220v + 10%=242. Areas close to substations (putting out 252v) regularly fry gear with a max of 242. Substations won't lower the voltage, because the cables aren't thick enough to keep 220v at the end of the line.
My area its often coming in from the street at 272v, the supplier has had to replace a bunch of things for me that cooked from over voltage. The meter records peaks, so its easy to prove.
Notwithstanding the fact that nobody ran out and did transformer tap changes in supposedly abandoning UK 240V. More a matter of adjusting the tolerances to pay lip service to the European 220V dictat. And they didnt stand any nonsense with Euro Plugs, retaining the mighty BS 1363 rated at 13A, but able to cope with nearer 60 Amps.
A clue to the likely surge requirements for a welder is often in the manufacturer's instructions where they state a minimum recommended capacity for powering the welder from a generator. The minimum recommended generator capacity stated in the instructions for my Cigweld 175i welder is 9 kVA. It is single phase with a 15 A plug and full wack is happy with on average around 3 kVA but peaks at a lot more.
In addition to the surge current that needs to be supplied by the alternator, generators usually need to be oversized for step/surge loads so they don't stall or, more commonly, go underspeed/under-frequency.
So Croc EV brings a Lithium ion SDG7-rhymes-with-WTC7 thermal runaway hazard straight into his cave and then proceeds to tempt Prometheus into giving him a personal V2L Luton. As was previously noted: "But he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire"?
20 amps max per circuit! Have got a pool pump, 2 AC units, a fridge, a dishwasher, a kettle, an oven and a few little things all running at once. Crickey, might be too much if I turn on the machine in the fun dungeon.
John, you are correct re your concern about RCDs (Safety Switches for those non-electrical people) not able to monitor for current imbalance faults & trip when the supply is ‘floating’ & has no reference to earth. This is pretty much every portable power supply that isn’t the grid Eg A 2KVA petrol generator, inverter supply in a caravan & the inverter supply from a V2L EV. There is a solution which is provided in the last two paragraphs of this post. Though, a RCD/MCB would usually only be in circuit if there is a Grid/AUX supply changeover switch* in the switchboard & the car wired via a 15amp ‘caravan cable’ to the AUX supply input. * I actually suggest getting a changeover switch installed as it’s so much easier to use the house wiring than running domestic extension cords all through the house. Just need to turn off the breakers to high wattage items like ovens, electric cooktops, electric Hot Water Systems, RCAC etc so they don’t make the car inverter get poopy in its pants. If using an extension cable to a multi outlet plug pak, then the total load will be limited to 10 amps by the board’s little inbuilt circuit breaker. But that breaker won’t stop a person being electrocuted in a fault situation. (Many people don’t realise the electricity from a generator or inverter can be just as deadly as the power from the grid) When using a ‘floating’ supply there is a special unit which mitigates electrocution risk. It’s called a Residual Voltage Detector (RVD) The RVD enables the standard Residual Current Detector (Safety Switch) to operate normally. Here is a link to explain it all - which I trust is OK to post here. (I’m not specifically recommending this company’s product, but they have a good primer page on them.) powersafe.net.au/wp-content/uploads/RCD-Duo-explained-brochure-PDF.pdf
RCDs do not require an earth path to function. All they care about is differential current on the monitored conductors. If there is no leakage path around the RCD, which is the case with I class supplies, there is no risk of electrocution to a person other than placing themselves across the current carrying conductors. It's only in the case of a double fault that I class types of arrangements become a hazard and should a person get themselves between hazardous things in these circumstances the RCD will trip. This is why it's important that RCDs be fitted as close to the I supply as possible to reduce the length of wire that could potentially be cut and introduce one part of a double fault. An 'electronic' (EC) RCD requires a functioning neutral (or functional earth which is a bit tricky in a 'system on a stick' such as these, ie it's not a T* class supply) and of course active/live/line/hot to operate so an 'electromagnetic' (EM) type can be a better choice for I class supplies since the device itself does not require a power supply.
I used to be an expert in replacing fuse wire back when i was shearing. The only way to start a 1hp Sunbeam shearing grinder of a regular house plug was to spin the disc,s by hand as fast as you could then switch the grindet on and off continually as it built up speed. A fraction too slow with the switch and pop went the fuse followed by the missus yelling that she was trying to cook dinner n stop fucking up the power.
Hey John love your videos mate! I just wanted to chime in on this topic as I have been playing around with lifep04 batteries, welders and inverters and have learnt a few things on this subject. Firstly, inverters are called a "floating" power supply - as they are not physically grounded to the earth. They are similar in this to a generator. They are actually inherently safer because if you touch positive only you won't complete a circuit through your body to ground. You can only really be electrocuted by a floating power supply of you somehow make yourself part of the circuit between negative and positive - which is hard to do!. The only downside with a floating power supply is that RCDs don't have the earth leakage mechanism that they need to operate. You can "pair" negative and earth in a generator and then RCDs will work but you lose the inherent safety feature of a floating power supply so it's a bit of a win lose situation. One other thing I have learnt is that welders have a huge current demand - if you look in the manual of your nominally 15 amp welder you will probably find that it draws over 20 amps in reality. A 20 amp circuit breaker doesn't trip at 20 amps it actually trips at 20 amps for X time, and 25 amps for less time then that, and 30 amps for less time again, you get the idea, you can put it on a graph. So a 15 amp circuit with a 20 amp breaker for instance can handle 25 amps for a certain amount of time. If you want to test an inverter with a more constant and stable load I use a fan heater for a base load (1000 or 2000 watts) and then I use a variable speed vaccum, after the initial start up load of then vac has passed I then progressively dial up the load until it trips. I have managed to weld off a lifepo4 batter and a 4000w low frequency inverter, it has a large physical transformer and can apparently provide 2 to 3 times the 4000 watts for short periods. I don't have equipment quick enough to measure it but I suspect that inverter welders have a dirty great startup spike load! Cheers, Felix
Likely as not the highly inductive welder caused a sudden di/dt (instantaneous current) . This created a dangerously high back emf to the inverter and over voltaged the inverter output devices. Protection systems on the inverter have to be very fast to kill the back emf and as presumed by John the designers had not envisaged such a device as welder being plugged in. A high di/dt (instantaneous current) can also cause current failure of the inverter output stage. Mechanical breakers are too slow to detect this instantaneous current and don't actuate, likely as not trip on the high standing current now flowing in the failed output stage. Some high power tools can have this effect such as large routers.
I would say it's more like 10 Amp. A normal stick welder running at 200 amp will trip a single-phase breaker at 30 Amp if you push it hard. At 10 Amp it will immediately trip.
You’ll need Ken Mattingly in the simulator to draft a restart sequence for your house, similar to the Apollo 13 CM restart while on V2L lol. To be fair, gas generators have similar limitations. You generally need to size the generator to the LRA of your A/C or heat pump system because that’s what usually draws the most in a home. I installed a soft start on my Heat Pump and dropped the LRA from 100Amps to 48 amps and basically cut my generator requirement in half.
If the car is plugged into the house charger (even in a black out), wouldn't the earth still function through the house? It would be nice to know if it can run the fridge. During blackouts, cold beer is essential
Wasn't surprised that the inverter in the car wouldn't run the welder. As you described the difference between running a high capacity electric motor with a capacitor starter like what is on a lot of builders compressors or running a welder on mains power vs off grid. My 2 portable Inverter welders CIGWELD 160 amp Inverter multi function easywelder Mig & Ark. or my previous CIGWELD 185 amp 3 in 1 multifunction Mig, Tig & Ark welder. Both surprisingly have 10 amp plugs. According to the manual of the welders, the minimum generator or inverter size for the 160 amp is a 7.2kva or kw generator or inverter. The 185amp says 8kva or kw generator or inverter. I've seen portable generator welders of 7.5kva with a 200amp Ark welder built into them. Basically a welder is an extreme test of any power source. It's an electric device that super heats metal to melting point instantaneously, to weld it together. Drawing huge amps. Funnily enough understanding how a electric inverter welder works. Power supply coming in on a 10 amp single phase like mine. 10amp, 230-240v. AC. The inverter welding power output voltage is adjustable from 17.1 to 22v DC. Amperage from 10amps to 160amps. Frequency 50-60hz. Basic understanding. An inverter welder works opposite to a transformer. A transformer can turn high amperage & high voltage into low voltage & amperage. An Inverter welder can turn high voltage at low amperage into low voltage at high amperage. But is a huge draw of amperage. Will test out any electrical circuit, circuit breaker, generator or inverter off grid power supply. If you have to do mobile welding. Best to invest in a portable generator welder. They are engineered to do it.
Fridges have a huge startup load, as I discovered when we were without power for a fortnight following cyclone Gabrielle last year - running a 24vdc-230vac 3000w inverter in my house truck I was able to get the deep freezer going only by running the truck on fast idle and unplugging everything else - and only after repeating this process over a course of a day was i able to gradually bring down the temperature in the fridge freezer and the chest freezer respectively until finally when the heat of the day was gone at night I was able to plug both of them in at the same time. This despite the nominal rated power consumption on both devices being in the range of 500w.
I feel like getting a decent quality soft starter module is in order if you wanna go V2L (or maybe even home battery to Load). I have seen plenty of peeps fry their battery based "power stations" by powering inductive loads on them. It's not ever really been much of a problem historically as we've had a decent grid to go by. Now the grid is getting a bit sketchy and outages are stretching from minutes to weeks we should probably all have a hard think about how we power our fat caves.
They should put a nice 240V outlet in the charging port. Save jamming it through the door at night. And one of those "bonuses" was to power your home if there's a loss of the grid. Maybe not then.
In fairness, most people would want to plug in a router, TV and computers, not drawing a whole lot, rather than a washing machine, dishwasher or cooker. A kettle might be the highest demand appliance typically used in such a situation.
It’s called inrush current…for your single phase resistive cap. Start motor, it’s between 6-10 times the rated current. Welders suffer this as well. I imagine the cars inverter is protected by a PTC resistor type protection that will open incredibly fast…something like 50 times faster than a fast blow fuse!
When you mentioned that no one would make welding a real priority, it reminded me of some videos of Chinese ev's, where a wheel, or a rear axle fell off. If that happened in the middle of nowhere, a welder would be real handy. Come to think of it, for those cars, a welder should be a standard accessory.
Great job as usual, BUT! The sparks from that “angry-grinder” were perilously close to the glass windows of the car! I know for a fact that the passenger side window of a 1974 Holden Ute don’t appreciate being sprayed with “angry-grinder” sparks. They tend to create little craters in the glass; not sure if modern auto glass has the same issue, never tried it since.
Living in Florida, definitely in hurricane country, I wouldn’t want to rely on an EV battery both to run the fridge and provide transport… and then have to wait for power to be restored so that I could recharge it. With a generator and a conventional ICE vehicle I’d be far better off.
John you have the wrong plug layout on your T Shirt, will not work in Australia. Voltage coming out of your GPO at home depends on how much load is on the network, and how close or far you are from the street transformer. Generally the voltage in Australia is 240/250V, but most of the imported electrical goods we import is 230V.
One good thing to come from all of this. At least the car didn't enter crematory mode, LoL. Honest journalism in motion. You've certainly proved a point there John.
I don't think I'll be welding much during the apocalypse, but if you had a V2L vehicle it would probably be a good idea to work out what you could run and for how long. Sounds like a good feature for people who like to camp. You'd be able to play a boom box and drink piss for hours out in DPC.
I really found that one very informative John and I do like the Kona So if you are in the dark and the car is powering the fridge get the camp cooker out to boil some water to make a cuppa So you don’t blow up the car 😂😂
I recon I keep my portable gen for some time. When the grid goes off I turn off main switch and connect the gen in to outdoor power point. No issues of any sort. When lights goes on in the hood I turn the gen off and main switch back on.
Im guessing at less than 1/2 way through that peak draw from welder is way higher than 15 amps. Doesn't matter in your house for short periods but of an inverter could be really significant..
Buy actual wall (Romex) wire and a rated set of plugs. I made a CUSTOM extension for my 110v welder. I use it on nothing else 🤔🤯 Don't use "extension cords" on any heavy load item. If the wire is warm? It's going to melt & cause a fire 🔥
I bought a welding rated cord for my welder, read of insurance issues if there was a problem like a fire. Wasn't all that expensive considering how much copper is in the thing.
Our 2020 Kona electric had every major drivetrain component fail withing the first 25K kms. Traction motor bearings became noisy and motor replaced, reduction box gear failed and replaced, HV battery replaced in recall, charge port stopped opening, 12v battery failed causing complete shutdown 6 times. We traded it on a Tesla Model Y with no problems after 38K kms. Hyundai QC seems to be almost non existent.
I wouldn't dare put a heavy load onto the thing with huge start up currents (i.e. electric motors). I had a tough inverter about 6 years ago (actual transformer one) . It would give 2000 watts continuous and surge 3000 for 5 seconds easily). It actually gave out pure sinewave as well (not square / modified) apparently (never put on a scope though). I put a vacuum cleaner on it and it survived although the battery behind it gave up soon (not enough batteries to keep it running but also saw a demonstration with a proper bank which could. Now I just have a UPS (much less capacity) but it keeps the cctv and computer running for hours in a blackout. This is useful if someone cuts the power to break in (still recording)
Yes good point about the earth as there isn't any from the car so no chance of tripping the Residual current device as it detects the difference in current flowing to earth and that flowing 20:00 back via the neutral. To utilise rcds on switchboard you would have to plug into a power point so switchboard is connected and disconnect the switchboard from the mains via main fuse then earth would be available from the switchboard and rcds would function as intended.
Or install a decent South African earth leakage circuit breaker, more than 30ma difference between live in and neutral out means it's going somewhere else so cliacky clunky and off it trips.
@15:58 achyally.. Fuse can pass momentary much higher current than it is rated for. There are different types of fuses with different properties what comes to over current. For example 3-phase induction motors draw a very high current when starting. For this a slow blow fuse is used.
I run my home on a single victron 5000VA 230V/16A inverter, it can handle surges at twice that. It runs my 12.000btu AC in summer while fridges start, no worries. It will cut out when loads are above it's rated 3700 real watts for too long.
I would never run a welder from a electronic front end. The spike voltage scares me too much. A much worse fear than high starting current. Most electronic detection for protection is not rated high enough.
When an emergency happens, and I need the car's inverter power. What's needed is that the refrigerator is plugged into it, to keep the beer and steaks cold. You know ... Emergency stuff ONLY !
Put the car in "Utility mode" in the EV settings panel. That way the drivetrain is disabled, HV battery and BMS enabled and there will be no load on the small 12 V battery.
I was just about to say thats why you dont buy a demo but you beat me right to it. I remember my time as an apprentice and some of the repairs wed have to do on "demos" before putting them out on the lot.
A matter of inrush current with a transformer-based welder, but an inverter welder would likely be easier when striking an arc. In my youth, my arc welder got a bit notorious with neighbours as my welding antics stopped the metal halide street lights...
Re: RCD protection - you don't need connection to the general mass of earth - you only need an N-E connection upstream of the rcd. I would assume this would be easy to achieve for Hyundai.
I would want the outlet DISABLED when the ignition is on. When the ignition is on, there is a possibility of kids in the back as passengers....... And kids would NEVER put something into a plug....
Something to check. Is there voltage at the cars outlet during zero load. I got caught out with a 24V DC to 230V AC inverter, the electronic inverter monitors the loads resistance, if there is zero load, it gives out zero volts. I learned the hard way after testing dead with a Multimeter and then grabbing a handful of wiring.
I'm not sure an inverter welder actually demands a surge. It's already powered on, so all the components that might require extra power (eg capacitors on the input rectifier stage) are already energised. It should be able to step right into operating current with no stupid surge. Inverter power supplies have very tiny inductors and transformers due to the very high frequency internals (that's the whole point of an inverter PS/welder). It's basically an oscillator with some control circuitry, a big final stage rectifier, and some more capacitors. There might be hint in the "high frequency" part. When you are generating RF frequencies strange things can happen. If even a little bit of that is getting back to the car's ECM, it could be what is causing it to throw an error. That's why the error being displayed is about the charger rather than the inverter - It's simply a gremlin in the ECM, not ac actual fault. That's also why turning the car off solved the problem the first time because it effectively reset the ECM. The smoking gun here is that even if you did fry the 240V inverter, it shouldn't cause a charger error in any case. I'm wondering if part of the confusion in the power ratings for the inverter are due to the Chinese "habit" of labelling inverters by the rated surge current, not the working load. They do this to advertising higher numbers of course, but it can confuse the heck out non-engineer types. If you're lucky they'll call it "peak power" which is a clue they are advertising the surge power, not the working load. For AC motors, the rule of thumb is that surge current will be twice the working load. DC motors are also problematic btw, but it's due the lack of back EMF until the motor gets up to speed.
Apollo 13. Just like the movie it could matter in which order the appliances are switched on so as not to blow the breaker. I’d suggest switching on appliances with the highest turn on surge first so, just like the movie, there is max headroom in the inverter to cope with it. Eg appliances with a motor (pump, fridge, small RCAC), then things with a large switch mode power supply (TV, computer), then small switch mode items (Phone) & finally LED lights. Though the only problem is the fridge & AC as it will then turn itself on & off at will - undoing all that careful turn on sequence. If it’s an inverter model, it’ll probably be OK as they have a soft start which minimises the start inrush current. Important thing is to add up all the wattages of everything you want to use to keep it under 3,000. If turning on something like the kettle will take total consumption over it, turn off some things so the kettle can have a turn without overloading the inverter. So you know what you can & can’t use, try out the combo of appliances you want to use before the blackout hits. Then if the inverter is tripped & a dealer visit is necessary you won’t be trying to get it reset during a crisis. The V2L adaptor accessory does let you draw power with it locked.
Kia EV6 has a utility mode, which is on, but the car can not be stolen and protects the 12v battery. I assume the Kona has the same feature? The Kia EV9 does one or possibly two better with V2G and V2H at up to 11kw with a bi-directional charger. Although that setup will cost you that ridiculously expensive EV9 and a very expensive bi-directional charger!
Yeah my sparky recons they turned the grunt down a bit in my part of the world. A multimeter of course is not the optimum tool to truly test this, but have noticed it used to be higher here years ago compared to now. Grounding could be an issue with a big fat insulator like rubber tyres. Circuit protection is obviously compromised in something that has the ground connected. Welder, yep strike the initial 'arc' - its surge city. When one hooks up a 15 amp welder to say a gen set, the boffins say get a 7 Kva set to cover one adequately. Clearly there isnt the 'fudge factor' on the vehicle that mains power possesses. Want to test a theory at home with say 10amp outlet in the kitchen. Running the microwave and the toaster together (together rated at well over 2400 watts) and shouldnt have an issue. Now add the kettle at the same time. Its trip time.
Why would they put a 15 amp outlet in it? What’s wrong with a 10 amp (like the one in the back seat of of our GWM Cannon which powers a fridge quite nicely)? If you put a 15 amp one there, you are implying or outright encouraging that you can USE a 15 amp device through it.
Probably to allow it to charge another EV at some sensible rate. 10A vs 15A is half as fast again, so would be good if you have the mobile juicer for your EV and it has a 15A tail then you'd be able to get enough juice into it, quicker, to get to the next fast charger. It isn't a surge type load, so yeah.. you could do that.
Methinks the internal power point is rated at 3kW, but the one in the charge port is 3.7kW. And I think either of them are 30 second power rating, probably more like 1600 to 2000 watts continuous. Maybe.
Electronically generated mains using an inverter is rubbish compared to normal mains. You have to consider power factor, peak amps and turn on surges. Plug in high power stuff which takes large start up surge, has high repetitive peak current and rubbish power factor and the inverter will either fail or shut down to protect itself. Bear in mind many things you plug into the mains take more than 100 amps start up surge (usually for
I'm glad you clarified that most people wouldn't typically choose to use their EV car battery to start DIY welding during a power outage..... but this is Oz and no doubt a disclaimer will be added for those few Aussies who would see this as a logical activity😂
The load of a welder is very 'dirty' with lots of voltage spikes and harmonics reflected back into the supply.. It may have been this that blew the inverter rather than the current. Electronic devices do not like sharply rising voltage waveforms ( spikes ), they can cause the devices to blow.
probably protected through a core balance device - measures the current through the active against the Neutral. Theoretically, if everything is good, both should be equal.
Hi John, you mentioned about connecting your car to the grid! That is one thing you shouldn't do. What If there was a line man from the power company trying to reconnect the "grid" after say a storm brought a line down. He would be fried!
That is interesting. I had an Australian text book when I was an apprentice and it referenced 415/240 volts all the way through. It has always been 230/400 volts in New Zealand my entire career. Australia must have picked up New Zealands voltage standard.
In the event of a power failure, I'd much rather power my appliances with a petrol car and inverter than an EV. With petrol, I don't have to worry so much about using up the petrol because I can easily get more at any servo. But I'd be reluctant to use power from the EV because if the battery runs low and I have to go a long distance for a supercharger (because local supercharger is in blackout area) I might not make it
a lot of similarities in this experiment, to our Domestic Electricity Grid and Generation Supply is my thoughts, does all the basic stuff efficiently, Load the System up and its Lights Out.
We run kids welding workshops out in the wild and I frequently have the same issue with both my small gas Honda 2000W generators and Bluetti battery paks running 120V welders. Occasionally we can find the Goldilocks combination of welder and settings that works for a while but not consistently. We have fallen back to using an over-sized 9000W propane powered generator but it is a beast to travel with. Still looking for something reasonable size that will handle the start surge of even our smallest welders. I guess we will not plan on it being an EV for a bit longer.
3300W inverters should be enough. If in Australia, I have an ozito one from Bunnings, it's handled everything I've thrown at it and it's easily transportable in a ute.
Mate, first thing an average Aussie battler is plugging into that is a 10A extension lead with 3 piggy back double adapters. Then comes the kettle, toaster and a microwave 😂
John, I don’t mind buying a demonstrator, but I certainly wouldn’t buy one after you had it ! Cheers.
Yeah low k's doesn't mean those weren't absolutely getting spanked k's.
How would you know who's been spanking out said k's? You don't.
It’s like renting a car after a racecar driver tried it out on a track - to failure (a few drivers lost access to rental cars for doing this repeatedly, back in the day).
Dough: does that include wife nr 3?
Car and or welder????
@dougstubbs9637 where do you think he gets all those cheap cars?
The car detected you welding in shorts.
Classic!
The key to this is to show the engineers who designed the inverter how you blew it up and let them fix it.
John, as an example: a 240v 2400w motor has a power fact or of around 0.8, therefore it draws (2400/0.8/240) =12.5 Amps . A single phase motor can draw from 6 to 7 times its rated current on start up.
Is that a capacitor start ?
yes, but that surge at the start is very short lived unless its under heavy load. inverters can also supply a lot more than their rated amount for a short time. the problem is often the manufactures ratings are bigger than what the inverter really is.
@@dfor50 Cap start will generally draw more current (on start) than a straight split phase motor
@@marshalgouldson2416 of course, inrush current. Pops the breakers in millions of home workshops.
@@tweake7175 however if the max rating of the inverter is 15A it will be cooked since that's a lot less 40A.
Thanks for the testing out the new Mobile welding vehicle before any money had to be laid out by anyone setting up a business to do Mobile welding.
👍
Damn!
I am genuinely impressed that they gave you the OK to do your test, especially given they must not have known the answer beforehand.
Worst scenario in a disaster is the electricity is out and now you have flattened your EV battery too.
For less than $1k you can buy a 5kW generator that will not have this problem. Heck, it could even give your car a bit of a top off, charging at about 20km per hour.
Sounds cheaper and lower drama than buying the V2L feature.
But EV drivers seem to live for drama...
and you can locate the generator well above the waterline !
@fc7424 Not if they want some electricity to charge their phones and their craptops 😉. At that point, people have other things to worry about rather than my nice quiet generator steadily purring away in the background.
Or better yet, don't have neighbours within earshot. It's lovely 😀.
How long do you think even a half charged 65kwh battery would last with a couple of fridges and a TV plugged into it?
@@dfross87 or it's running the rooftop sprinkler system designed to stop their house from becoming another bushfire statistic !
@@wilson2455 I don't use an electric pump for that. Gravity is much more reliable.
NOT a coincidence John is wearing this T-Shirt on this video... love his humor
Everyone at Dingo Piss Creek is laughing at John for frying his inverter as they keep the camp running on a Kings
Kings gear falls apart unless you only glance at it sideways.
Wow, Kings, really?
Maybe a backyard physics talk about inverters, capacitive and reactive loads, power factors and discharges from the collapsing magnetic fields from when you let go of the trigger on your welder.
Collapsing magnetic fields are very small on modern solid state IGBT welders. The older transformer models however......
@@andrewallen9993 interesting, I always thought my welding was terrible because I have no skill, not the archaic welder I inherited from my grandfather. I guess I could upgrade it but I could probably get better results by upgrading the operator.
Could you possibly have packed any more jargon into your request?? :)
If Hyundai are going to let you try that, it gives me great confidence in the durability of their products.
Agreed. Props to them for that.
A Shiny suited bullshit artist salesperson will tell you what they think you want to hear to make a sale...... No, really!!😂
We recently had a 36 hour power outage and my Bluetti x2 did a perfect job, the first one was drawn down from 100% full to 20% full in 25 hours and the next one 100% to 52% for the next 11 hours, mostly day time with TV's, fridges and kettles running.
How much did your Bluetti's cost?
@@andyharman3022 About $2,700 for 3,000W unit but you need a $3,000 battery pack to make it work! Quality invertor though
Hey@@andyharman3022 , they cost me about $2000 1 years ago on special, they are both 2.4Wh units. They are build very well and I use one in my boat too. They are great for 4x4 fitouts as well.
@@andyharman3022 yeah, damn things are expensive, and why would he watch tv in times like that? you never know when the power comes back on!
I wouldn't be worried about the RCD protection aspect because even if you licked the live wire from the cars inverter, it not being earthed, means you aren't completing the circuit through ground. That is if you aren't touching the cars chassis while licking earth. However, active on one nipple and neutral on the other, well I wouldn't recommend that one, and an RCD wouldn't save you there anyway.
Umm....so you're into some really high-powered E-Stim with that nipple wiring, eh?? :)
Every video you produce, I learn from. I also find your sense of humor absolutely hysterical. Brilliant.
John , I'm worried for all the harmless bugs around your home . To save them and possibly lengthen your 'fuse' , mabey change coffee brand ! You remind me of when I've had too many STRONG ones . Great presentation my man !
With AC systems, phase angle matters. 250V AC @ 16A = 4000VA. It equals 4000W if and only if the angle between current and voltage is zero degrees (i.e. a purely resistive load).
Agree, the welder is probably anasty power factor.
I was a salesman at a BMW dealer a good while ago, and we used to take a demonstrator to track days. I was also in charge of the Lexus Customer Care (complaints) Center for three years. We were always invited to new model launches when the press got to drive them. And they always went to the limit, usually at Eastern Creek. Most were given to the dealerships to be used as demos. Most were on trader plates too, so the kms were always dodgy. Most were less than 5000kms and an oil change and new tyres disguised the short but brutal history.
My first thoughts were that there might be a risk of the car catching fire, which might have been a disappointment being close to the house.
A few years ago, we needed to run a 15a welder away from a grid supply. Whilst generally available generators were rated high enough to cope with the steady load, some research determined we'd actually need a much bigger one, costing around £1200. Knocked that project on the head.
Just rent a dedicated welder/generator and make it someone else's problem if the poo hits the fan
@@seanworkman431Only welder generators I've seen are arc welders. Needed MIG.
@@nigelcox1451 true but arc was all we had in the old days, gasless mig or flux wire needs the polarity reversed, gased mig does not like wind but arc will work anywhere.
Interesting welder addendum to your story John, I recently had circuit board work done on my house and afterwards the 10 amp plug 'newish' Inverter mig welder was popping the new 16A breaker they put in. When the sparky put a clamp meter on the cable at the breaker, my 10A welder was pulling 36 amps while welding! He said the breakers are rated to pull double their rating for 2 minutes before tripping.
As a Kona owner, if the '24 version is the same as the '21 then you put the car into utility mode. HV battery is active but the car will not go into drive, to exit utility mode you have to turn the car off then on again.
So I guess we can assume that at startup your welder drew considerably more power that the rated output of the inverter in the Kona. Really looks like this was a user generated problem rather than an issue with the Kona 240V inverter output.
John Cadogan testing the limits? Who knew? Well done . . . as usual.
In a world that's gone full Mad Max I feel there would be a tendency to hang on to every bit of charge in the car. The outcome of this would be to not use the car ever again, either for travelling or home electricity because it probably could never be recharged.
There is an assumption here around the location of the EV when said flood occurs, if it happens when the EV is away from the property and said EV does not have a 'boating function' (007 style) then the V2L function won't be much use. A petrol generator with push button start that will do around 6kw can be had for around $1200. Pro tip, don't get the ones that look overgrown plastic freezers formed from a single mould, nightmare to service, you want one you can see the mechanism. When the thing won't start because of a loose wire, being able to see the wire and put it back in a second is a big plus.
If flood is a real risk, you can put the genset on a raised platform somewhere higher than EOTWAWKI flood level. But if your house can flood before the genset....
The old European standard was 220v. Aus/NZ/Pacific & UK was 240v. While 230 seemed like a smart middle ground, most manufacturers of 220v stuff didn't change. 220v + 10%=242. Areas close to substations (putting out 252v) regularly fry gear with a max of 242. Substations won't lower the voltage, because the cables aren't thick enough to keep 220v at the end of the line.
My area its often coming in from the street at 272v, the supplier has had to replace a bunch of things for me that cooked from over voltage. The meter records peaks, so its easy to prove.
Yep! And the manufacturers of 240V stuff didn’t make any changes either… was easy for (almost) everyone!
Notwithstanding the fact that nobody ran out and did transformer tap changes in supposedly abandoning UK 240V. More a matter of adjusting the tolerances to pay lip service to the European 220V dictat. And they didnt stand any nonsense with Euro Plugs, retaining the mighty BS 1363 rated at 13A, but able to cope with nearer 60 Amps.
A clue to the likely surge requirements for a welder is often in the manufacturer's instructions where they state a minimum recommended capacity for powering the welder from a generator. The minimum recommended generator capacity stated in the instructions for my Cigweld 175i welder is 9 kVA. It is single phase with a 15 A plug and full wack is happy with on average around 3 kVA but peaks at a lot more.
In addition to the surge current that needs to be supplied by the alternator, generators usually need to be oversized for step/surge loads so they don't stall or, more commonly, go underspeed/under-frequency.
My 10 amp stick/tig needs 9 kva to start.
Message to self, no welding during a disaster event, need the fridge to work.....
Well that's no good. I always get the urge to do a spot of welding when I get flooded in.
I see you're skilled at building Sarcasm. :)
So Croc EV brings a Lithium ion SDG7-rhymes-with-WTC7 thermal runaway hazard straight into his cave and then proceeds to tempt Prometheus into giving him a personal V2L Luton.
As was previously noted: "But he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire"?
20 amps max per circuit! Have got a pool pump, 2 AC units, a fridge, a dishwasher, a kettle, an oven and a few little things all running at once. Crickey, might be too much if I turn on the machine in the fun dungeon.
John, you are correct re your concern about RCDs (Safety Switches for those non-electrical people) not able to monitor for current imbalance faults & trip when the supply is ‘floating’ & has no reference to earth. This is pretty much every portable power supply that isn’t the grid Eg A 2KVA petrol generator, inverter supply in a caravan & the inverter supply from a V2L EV. There is a solution which is provided in the last two paragraphs of this post.
Though, a RCD/MCB would usually only be in circuit if there is a Grid/AUX supply changeover switch* in the switchboard & the car wired via a 15amp ‘caravan cable’ to the AUX supply input.
* I actually suggest getting a changeover switch installed as it’s so much easier to use the house wiring than running domestic extension cords all through the house. Just need to turn off the breakers to high wattage items like ovens, electric cooktops, electric Hot Water Systems, RCAC etc so they don’t make the car inverter get poopy in its pants.
If using an extension cable to a multi outlet plug pak, then the total load will be limited to 10 amps by the board’s little inbuilt circuit breaker. But that breaker won’t stop a person being electrocuted in a fault situation. (Many people don’t realise the electricity from a generator or inverter can be just as deadly as the power from the grid)
When using a ‘floating’ supply there is a special unit which mitigates electrocution risk. It’s called a Residual Voltage Detector (RVD) The RVD enables the standard Residual Current Detector (Safety Switch) to operate normally.
Here is a link to explain it all - which I trust is OK to post here. (I’m not specifically recommending this company’s product, but they have a good primer page on them.)
powersafe.net.au/wp-content/uploads/RCD-Duo-explained-brochure-PDF.pdf
RCDs do not require an earth path to function. All they care about is differential current on the monitored conductors. If there is no leakage path around the RCD, which is the case with I class supplies, there is no risk of electrocution to a person other than placing themselves across the current carrying conductors. It's only in the case of a double fault that I class types of arrangements become a hazard and should a person get themselves between hazardous things in these circumstances the RCD will trip. This is why it's important that RCDs be fitted as close to the I supply as possible to reduce the length of wire that could potentially be cut and introduce one part of a double fault.
An 'electronic' (EC) RCD requires a functioning neutral (or functional earth which is a bit tricky in a 'system on a stick' such as these, ie it's not a T* class supply) and of course active/live/line/hot to operate so an 'electromagnetic' (EM) type can be a better choice for I class supplies since the device itself does not require a power supply.
I used to be an expert in replacing fuse wire back when i was shearing. The only way to start a 1hp Sunbeam shearing grinder of a regular house plug was to spin the disc,s by hand as fast as you could then switch the grindet on and off continually as it built up speed. A fraction too slow with the switch and pop went the fuse followed by the missus yelling that she was trying to cook dinner n stop fucking up the power.
so the first question asked when looking into a demonstrator is... "Has JC used this car?" if they say no, its good to go!!!
Hey John love your videos mate!
I just wanted to chime in on this topic as I have been playing around with lifep04 batteries, welders and inverters and have learnt a few things on this subject.
Firstly, inverters are called a "floating" power supply - as they are not physically grounded to the earth. They are similar in this to a generator. They are actually inherently safer because if you touch positive only you won't complete a circuit through your body to ground. You can only really be electrocuted by a floating power supply of you somehow make yourself part of the circuit between negative and positive - which is hard to do!. The only downside with a floating power supply is that RCDs don't have the earth leakage mechanism that they need to operate. You can "pair" negative and earth in a generator and then RCDs will work but you lose the inherent safety feature of a floating power supply so it's a bit of a win lose situation.
One other thing I have learnt is that welders have a huge current demand - if you look in the manual of your nominally 15 amp welder you will probably find that it draws over 20 amps in reality. A 20 amp circuit breaker doesn't trip at 20 amps it actually trips at 20 amps for X time, and 25 amps for less time then that, and 30 amps for less time again, you get the idea, you can put it on a graph. So a 15 amp circuit with a 20 amp breaker for instance can handle 25 amps for a certain amount of time.
If you want to test an inverter with a more constant and stable load I use a fan heater for a base load (1000 or 2000 watts) and then I use a variable speed vaccum, after the initial start up load of then vac has passed I then progressively dial up the load until it trips.
I have managed to weld off a lifepo4 batter and a 4000w low frequency inverter, it has a large physical transformer and can apparently provide 2 to 3 times the 4000 watts for short periods. I don't have equipment quick enough to measure it but I suspect that inverter welders have a dirty great startup spike load!
Cheers,
Felix
I have run a 240amp MIG/stick welder (IGBT) in the field using a 5600watt 240 volt inverter and 100amp 48volt lifepo battery with great success.
Likely as not the highly inductive welder caused a sudden di/dt (instantaneous current) . This created a dangerously high back emf to the inverter and over voltaged the inverter output devices. Protection systems on the inverter have to be very fast to kill the back emf and as presumed by John the designers had not envisaged such a device as welder being plugged in. A high di/dt (instantaneous current) can also cause current failure of the inverter output stage. Mechanical breakers are too slow to detect this instantaneous current and don't actuate, likely as not trip on the high standing current now flowing in the failed output stage. Some high power tools can have this effect such as large routers.
I would say it's more like 10 Amp. A normal stick welder running at 200 amp will trip a single-phase breaker at 30 Amp if you push it hard. At 10 Amp it will immediately trip.
You’ll need Ken Mattingly in the simulator to draft a restart sequence for your house, similar to the Apollo 13 CM restart while on V2L lol. To be fair, gas generators have similar limitations. You generally need to size the generator to the LRA of your A/C or heat pump system because that’s what usually draws the most in a home. I installed a soft start on my Heat Pump and dropped the LRA from 100Amps to 48 amps and basically cut my generator requirement in half.
I would have started with a clock radio playing quietly and worked my way up to a hand held drill.
Where's your spirit of adventure, lad?!
If the car is plugged into the house charger (even in a black out), wouldn't the earth still function through the house?
It would be nice to know if it can run the fridge.
During blackouts, cold beer is essential
Yes.
I thought the cold beer led to the blackouts...
Wasn't surprised that the inverter in the car wouldn't run the welder. As you described the difference between running a high capacity electric motor with a capacitor starter like what is on a lot of builders compressors or running a welder on mains power vs off grid. My 2 portable Inverter welders CIGWELD 160 amp Inverter multi function easywelder Mig & Ark. or my previous CIGWELD 185 amp 3 in 1 multifunction Mig, Tig & Ark welder. Both surprisingly have 10 amp plugs. According to the manual of the welders, the minimum generator or inverter size for the 160 amp is a 7.2kva or kw generator or inverter. The 185amp says 8kva or kw generator or inverter. I've seen portable generator welders of 7.5kva with a 200amp Ark welder built into them. Basically a welder is an extreme test of any power source. It's an electric device that super heats metal to melting point instantaneously, to weld it together. Drawing huge amps. Funnily enough understanding how a electric inverter welder works. Power supply coming in on a 10 amp single phase like mine. 10amp, 230-240v. AC. The inverter welding power output voltage is adjustable from 17.1 to 22v DC. Amperage from 10amps to 160amps. Frequency 50-60hz. Basic understanding. An inverter welder works opposite to a transformer. A transformer can turn high amperage & high voltage into low voltage & amperage. An Inverter welder can turn high voltage at low amperage into low voltage at high amperage. But is a huge draw of amperage. Will test out any electrical circuit, circuit breaker, generator or inverter off grid power supply. If you have to do mobile welding. Best to invest in a portable generator welder. They are engineered to do it.
Fridges have a huge startup load, as I discovered when we were without power for a fortnight following cyclone Gabrielle last year - running a 24vdc-230vac 3000w inverter in my house truck I was able to get the deep freezer going only by running the truck on fast idle and unplugging everything else - and only after repeating this process over a course of a day was i able to gradually bring down the temperature in the fridge freezer and the chest freezer respectively until finally when the heat of the day was gone at night I was able to plug both of them in at the same time. This despite the nominal rated power consumption on both devices being in the range of 500w.
I feel like getting a decent quality soft starter module is in order if you wanna go V2L (or maybe even home battery to Load). I have seen plenty of peeps fry their battery based "power stations" by powering inductive loads on them. It's not ever really been much of a problem historically as we've had a decent grid to go by. Now the grid is getting a bit sketchy and outages are stretching from minutes to weeks we should probably all have a hard think about how we power our fat caves.
They should put a nice 240V outlet in the charging port. Save jamming it through the door at night. And one of those "bonuses" was to power your home if there's a loss of the grid. Maybe not then.
In fairness, most people would want to plug in a router, TV and computers, not drawing a whole lot, rather than a washing machine, dishwasher or cooker. A kettle might be the highest demand appliance typically used in such a situation.
It’s called inrush current…for your single phase resistive cap. Start motor, it’s between 6-10 times the rated current. Welders suffer this as well. I imagine the cars inverter is protected by a PTC resistor type protection that will open incredibly fast…something like 50 times faster than a fast blow fuse!
When you mentioned that no one would make welding a real priority, it reminded me of some videos of Chinese ev's, where a wheel, or a rear axle fell off. If that happened in the middle of nowhere, a welder would be real handy. Come to think of it, for those cars, a welder should be a standard accessory.
John you made a boat anchor..........MALS.
In this episode: John avoids potentially becoming a real life spiderman via attempted violence.
Great job as usual, BUT! The sparks from that “angry-grinder” were perilously close to the glass windows of the car! I know for a fact that the passenger side window of a 1974 Holden Ute don’t appreciate being sprayed with “angry-grinder” sparks. They tend to create little craters in the glass; not sure if modern auto glass has the same issue, never tried it since.
Living in Florida, definitely in hurricane country, I wouldn’t want to rely on an EV battery both to run the fridge and provide transport… and then have to wait for power to be restored so that I could recharge it. With a generator and a conventional ICE vehicle I’d be far better off.
How long are you planning to be without power? Also. WTAF is running the petrol pumps ?
@@theairstig9164Jerry cans? Same stuff that would charge the EV?
John you have the wrong plug layout on your T Shirt, will not work in Australia. Voltage coming out of your GPO at home depends on how much load is on the network, and how close or far you are from the street transformer. Generally the voltage in Australia is 240/250V, but most of the imported electrical goods we import is 230V.
He knows.
One good thing to come from all of this. At least the car didn't enter crematory mode, LoL. Honest journalism in motion. You've certainly proved a point there John.
I don't think I'll be welding much during the apocalypse, but if you had a V2L vehicle it would probably be a good idea to work out what you could run and for how long. Sounds like a good feature for people who like to camp. You'd be able to play a boom box and drink piss for hours out in DPC.
I tripped the breaker at the main panel this past weekend. Note to self, do not run air fryer, toaster oven and electric kettle at the same time.
John thank you for your diligent equipment testing but I think i will keep my 3 petrol generators for now all the same regards Phil
I really found that one very informative John and I do like the Kona
So if you are in the dark and the car is powering the fridge get the camp cooker out to boil some water to make a cuppa
So you don’t blow up the car 😂😂
I recon I keep my portable gen for some time. When the grid goes off I turn off main switch and connect the gen in to outdoor power point. No issues of any sort. When lights goes on in the hood I turn the gen off and main switch back on.
how hard is it to fit a resettable fuse next the the plug instead of all the messages on the dash
Im guessing at less than 1/2 way through that peak draw from welder is way higher than 15 amps. Doesn't matter in your house for short periods but of an inverter could be really significant..
Buy actual wall (Romex) wire and a rated set of plugs. I made a CUSTOM extension for my 110v welder. I use it on nothing else 🤔🤯 Don't use "extension cords" on any heavy load item. If the wire is warm? It's going to melt & cause a fire 🔥
Not quite true, most cables in Australia are rated at a certain current, at 75degC.
So if the cable is “warm”, that is completely normal
@@kevindennis916 USA ... Lots of "Dollar Store" extension cords are illegal to use for just about ANYTHING other than Christmas lights 🤯 lol
I bought a welding rated cord for my welder, read of insurance issues if there was a problem like a fire. Wasn't all that expensive considering how much copper is in the thing.
Our 2020 Kona electric had every major drivetrain component fail withing the first 25K kms. Traction motor bearings became noisy and motor replaced, reduction box gear failed and replaced, HV battery replaced in recall, charge port stopped opening, 12v battery failed causing complete shutdown 6 times. We traded it on a Tesla Model Y with no problems after 38K kms. Hyundai QC seems to be almost non existent.
I wouldn't dare put a heavy load onto the thing with huge start up currents (i.e. electric motors). I had a tough inverter about 6 years ago (actual transformer one) . It would give 2000 watts continuous and surge 3000 for 5 seconds easily). It actually gave out pure sinewave as well (not square / modified) apparently (never put on a scope though). I put a vacuum cleaner on it and it survived although the battery behind it gave up soon (not enough batteries to keep it running but also saw a demonstration with a proper bank which could.
Now I just have a UPS (much less capacity) but it keeps the cctv and computer running for hours in a blackout. This is useful if someone cuts the power to break in (still recording)
Yes good point about the earth as there isn't any from the car so no chance of tripping the Residual current device as it detects the difference in current flowing to earth and that flowing 20:00 back via the neutral. To utilise rcds on switchboard you would have to plug into a power point so switchboard is connected and disconnect the switchboard from the mains via main fuse then earth would be available from the switchboard and rcds would function as intended.
Or install a decent South African earth leakage circuit breaker, more than 30ma difference between live in and neutral out means it's going somewhere else so cliacky clunky and off it trips.
@15:58 achyally.. Fuse can pass momentary much higher current than it is rated for. There are different types of fuses with different properties what comes to over current. For example 3-phase induction motors draw a very high current when starting. For this a slow blow fuse is used.
The inverter probably has too small capacitors and too weak power electronics to cope with high inductive or capacitive load.
And the reason why grid can handle these is the really big flywheel on the other end of the cable.
I run my home on a single victron 5000VA 230V/16A inverter, it can handle surges at twice that.
It runs my 12.000btu AC in summer while fridges start, no worries.
It will cut out when loads are above it's rated 3700 real watts for too long.
I would never run a welder from a electronic front end. The spike voltage scares me too much. A much worse fear than high starting current. Most electronic detection for protection is not rated high enough.
When an emergency happens, and I need the car's inverter power. What's needed is that the refrigerator is plugged into it, to keep the beer and steaks cold. You know ... Emergency stuff ONLY !
Put the car in "Utility mode" in the EV settings panel.
That way the drivetrain is disabled, HV battery and BMS enabled and there will be no load on the small 12 V battery.
I was just about to say thats why you dont buy a demo but you beat me right to it. I remember my time as an apprentice and some of the repairs wed have to do on "demos" before putting them out on the lot.
A matter of inrush current with a transformer-based welder, but an inverter welder would likely be easier when striking an arc. In my youth, my arc welder got a bit notorious with neighbours as my welding antics stopped the metal halide street lights...
Re: RCD protection - you don't need connection to the general mass of earth - you only need an N-E connection upstream of the rcd. I would assume this would be easy to achieve for Hyundai.
I would want the outlet DISABLED when the ignition is on. When the ignition is on, there is a possibility of kids in the back as passengers....... And kids would NEVER put something into a plug....
6:43 - LOL, I said it before you did. Been watching too long 😂
Something to check. Is there voltage at the cars outlet during zero load. I got caught out with a 24V DC to 230V AC inverter, the electronic inverter monitors the loads resistance, if there is zero load, it gives out zero volts. I learned the hard way after testing dead with a Multimeter and then grabbing a handful of wiring.
UA-cam needs to ban all commercials. But they don't. So we should call for them to be dealt with harshly by way of the rule of law. hard core.
I'm not sure an inverter welder actually demands a surge. It's already powered on, so all the components that might require extra power (eg capacitors on the input rectifier stage) are already energised. It should be able to step right into operating current with no stupid surge. Inverter power supplies have very tiny inductors and transformers due to the very high frequency internals (that's the whole point of an inverter PS/welder). It's basically an oscillator with some control circuitry, a big final stage rectifier, and some more capacitors.
There might be hint in the "high frequency" part. When you are generating RF frequencies strange things can happen. If even a little bit of that is getting back to the car's ECM, it could be what is causing it to throw an error. That's why the error being displayed is about the charger rather than the inverter - It's simply a gremlin in the ECM, not ac actual fault. That's also why turning the car off solved the problem the first time because it effectively reset the ECM. The smoking gun here is that even if you did fry the 240V inverter, it shouldn't cause a charger error in any case.
I'm wondering if part of the confusion in the power ratings for the inverter are due to the Chinese "habit" of labelling inverters by the rated surge current, not the working load. They do this to advertising higher numbers of course, but it can confuse the heck out non-engineer types. If you're lucky they'll call it "peak power" which is a clue they are advertising the surge power, not the working load. For AC motors, the rule of thumb is that surge current will be twice the working load. DC motors are also problematic btw, but it's due the lack of back EMF until the motor gets up to speed.
A welder has a currency transformer so the voltage draw will vary. Yes it will cook a battery. Any battery
Apollo 13. Just like the movie it could matter in which order the appliances are switched on so as not to blow the breaker.
I’d suggest switching on appliances with the highest turn on surge first so, just like the movie, there is max headroom in the inverter to cope with it.
Eg appliances with a motor (pump, fridge, small RCAC), then things with a large switch mode power supply (TV, computer), then small switch mode items (Phone) & finally LED lights. Though the only problem is the fridge & AC as it will then turn itself on & off at will - undoing all that careful turn on sequence. If it’s an inverter model, it’ll probably be OK as they have a soft start which minimises the start inrush current.
Important thing is to add up all the wattages of everything you want to use to keep it under 3,000. If turning on something like the kettle will take total consumption over it, turn off some things so the kettle can have a turn without overloading the inverter.
So you know what you can & can’t use, try out the combo of appliances you want to use before the blackout hits. Then if the inverter is tripped & a dealer visit is necessary you won’t be trying to get it reset during a crisis.
The V2L adaptor accessory does let you draw power with it locked.
the ultimate voltage stabilizer killing machine: hair dryers!
Kia EV6 has a utility mode, which is on, but the car can not be stolen and protects the 12v battery. I assume the Kona has the same feature?
The Kia EV9 does one or possibly two better with V2G and V2H at up to 11kw with a bi-directional charger. Although that setup will cost you that ridiculously expensive EV9 and a very expensive bi-directional charger!
I bet you get better features by spending $1k on a generator.
@cccmmm1234 Can you drive your $1000 generator? Park it anywhere then "silently" power whatever you like?
@@gregb1599 no but I could also buy a second car and buy a few thousand litres fuel still pay less than the EV9.
Yeah my sparky recons they turned the grunt down a bit in my part of the world. A multimeter of course is not the optimum tool to truly test this, but have noticed it used to be higher here years ago compared to now.
Grounding could be an issue with a big fat insulator like rubber tyres. Circuit protection is obviously compromised in something that has the ground connected. Welder, yep strike the initial 'arc' - its surge city.
When one hooks up a 15 amp welder to say a gen set, the boffins say get a 7 Kva set to cover one adequately.
Clearly there isnt the 'fudge factor' on the vehicle that mains power possesses. Want to test a theory at home with say 10amp outlet in the kitchen. Running the microwave and the toaster together (together rated at well over 2400 watts) and shouldnt have an issue. Now add the kettle at the same time. Its trip time.
Why would they put a 15 amp outlet in it? What’s wrong with a 10 amp (like the one in the back seat of of our GWM Cannon which powers a fridge quite nicely)?
If you put a 15 amp one there, you are implying or outright encouraging that you can USE a 15 amp device through it.
Probably to allow it to charge another EV at some sensible rate. 10A vs 15A is half as fast again, so would be good if you have the mobile juicer for your EV and it has a 15A tail then you'd be able to get enough juice into it, quicker, to get to the next fast charger.
It isn't a surge type load, so yeah.. you could do that.
A 100 amp fuse could take two or three times that in order to blow imiediatly.
Methinks the internal power point is rated at 3kW, but the one in the charge port is 3.7kW.
And I think either of them are 30 second power rating, probably more like 1600 to 2000 watts continuous. Maybe.
Electronically generated mains using an inverter is rubbish compared to normal mains.
You have to consider power factor, peak amps and turn on surges.
Plug in high power stuff which takes large start up surge, has high repetitive peak current and rubbish power factor and the inverter will either fail or shut down to protect itself.
Bear in mind many things you plug into the mains take more than 100 amps start up surge (usually for
Only John would go "Cool! I want to try my welder!" 😂😂😂😂
I'm glad you clarified that most people wouldn't typically choose to use their EV car battery to start DIY welding during a power outage..... but this is Oz and no doubt a disclaimer will be added for those few Aussies who would see this as a logical activity😂
The load of a welder is very 'dirty' with lots of voltage spikes and harmonics reflected back into the supply.. It may have been this that blew the inverter rather than the current. Electronic devices do not like sharply rising voltage waveforms ( spikes ), they can cause the devices to blow.
probably protected through a core balance device - measures the current through the active against the Neutral. Theoretically, if everything is good, both should be equal.
Easy solution, assuming your not welding, disconnect everything prior to connecting car, plug in appliances one at a time
Hi John, you mentioned about connecting your car to the grid! That is one thing you shouldn't do. What If there was a line man from the power company trying to reconnect the "grid" after say a storm brought a line down. He would be fried!
Multi Pole change over switches fix this. Only an idiot with a a suicide lead would cause that.
That is interesting. I had an Australian text book when I was an apprentice and it referenced 415/240 volts all the way through. It has always been 230/400 volts in New Zealand my entire career. Australia must have picked up New Zealands voltage standard.
It’s an International Standard, the grid still supplies exactly what it did before ie 240v +/-
In the event of a power failure, I'd much rather power my appliances with a petrol car and inverter than an EV. With petrol, I don't have to worry so much about using up the petrol because I can easily get more at any servo. But I'd be reluctant to use power from the EV because if the battery runs low and I have to go a long distance for a supercharger (because local supercharger is in blackout area) I might not make it
Would you really want to fatten the battery on your ev during a power outage if it was your only form of transport
a lot of similarities in this experiment, to our Domestic Electricity Grid and Generation Supply is my thoughts, does all the basic stuff efficiently, Load the System up and its Lights Out.
We run kids welding workshops out in the wild and I frequently have the same issue with both my small gas Honda 2000W generators and Bluetti battery paks running 120V welders. Occasionally we can find the Goldilocks combination of welder and settings that works for a while but not consistently. We have fallen back to using an over-sized 9000W propane powered generator but it is a beast to travel with.
Still looking for something reasonable size that will handle the start surge of even our smallest welders. I guess we will not plan on it being an EV for a bit longer.
3300W inverters should be enough. If in Australia, I have an ozito one from Bunnings, it's handled everything I've thrown at it and it's easily transportable in a ute.
Mate, first thing an average Aussie battler is plugging into that is a 10A extension lead with 3 piggy back double adapters.
Then comes the kettle, toaster and a microwave 😂
3kW at 230V is enough to have a few lights on and boil a kettle. Just hope the fridge doesn't power on at the same time.
Would have been interesting if you connected a 15 amp resistive load, like an electric heater or a kettle, and then see if it coped ok.