Let's chat below! Does this fly in the face of what you thought you knew? Is this in alignment with your experiences? Are you intrigued with upcoming pushes in trying to understand burrs? Or is this all just white noise? ha! Thanks for watching and engaging!
I have a niche and I like it, I do think it would be fun to get a flat bur grinder, and try it, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it for me. I like the espresso I make more than the stuff I get at most cafes in the major city I live in. ( I think most cafes just tend to be inconsistent unfortunately). I wish there was a way I could try the different grinders myself for a week or so and see if I would really notice any taste difference. Also curious about dialing in... With my niche zero and my e61 machine, with beans I am familiar with the sweet spot for good shots is pretty wide and I can get there just by guessing usually. It's nice to not waste any shots or force myself to drink a sour bomb. Would that change if I got a flat bur?
What I'm missing is the next level of science behind this. For instance, I'd assume that for the same coffee, if you were able to achieve a similar grind distribution, it should taste the same in the cup regardless of what burr / geometry you used to achieve it. (Barring chemical changes to the coffee, for example overheating burrs). Then if you establish that, you should be able to associate certain cupping characteristics to certain properties of the grind distribution. For example, you tasted two dozen (?) different burrs before landing on the V2 Ode burrs. Assuming you controlled for coffee origin, freshness & brew method, any differences in taste must map directly back to grind distribution created by the burrs. I'm kind of excited here because there's a potential for coffee tasting to be "solved" in a way that wine tasting can't - coffee nerds love to bust out their thermal probes and challenge their perception in a way that the wine industry refuses to (at least publicly).
I feel like we're only talking about small margins here. Having a high quality grinder is always better than no grinder, no matter if coned or flat. I got myself a Comandante for Christmas and have always had better coffee since
Just recently got into thinking about grinder burrs with the Sculptor Kickstarter, and this does clarify a lot for me. I'm usually a darker roast kind of person favoring body, and wasn't quite sure about getting a flat burr grinder since I'd always hear them associated with light roasts and clarity. Sounds like on the Sculptor for example, if I take the S burrs with the pre-breakers, and use higher RPMs, that should be the path forward for preferring dark roasts and body?
What if you grind the same beans at different speeds on a variable speed grinder and then compare the percentage of fines, coarse and in between particles generated. Then brew an espresso with that grind and compare the taste profile against the spectrum you mentioned? 🙂
I'm an Industrial Design major who will be designing a coffee grinder for her final project, I can't explain how helpful this video has been! Thank you and love from Argentina
Im not putting any bias on any type. But Theoretically, - given exactly same stability and precision, larger burrs make more even ground particles plus less heat, longevity(which may not matter to the average consumers) and stuff. - Stability and precision is what matters the most for more even ground - flat burrs are A LOT “easier” to stabilize by design, but are more expensive, and tend to require a stronger motor. (same applies for larger burrs) - flat burrs tasting more balanced and refined means they are more evenly ground This is like sound system. A super balanced sound is not necessarily fun for everyone. Some like more bassy and with more treble. So it’s not a matter of supriority but of preference.
Theres one in America where they use a cone burr prebreaker and a flat burr for final cuts. Supposedly is absolutely outstanding. I am honestly shocked to realize that Lance has never reviewed any of their grinders KafaTek Max. Very interesting company and grinders. VERY EXPENSIVE
@@user-jm8ky1kn2t Only the MAX2 has the prebreaker; no older Monolith units (pre-March 2023) have this kind of design. Predating these newest Monoliths, the Versalab M4 grinder also uses a conical-flat hybrid system
This was intensely nerdy but a really cool breakdown! Love these more technical-style videos. Would appreciate having chapters/timestamps where you address different topics, like RPM, teeth geometry, and size.
The whole high end coffee market is hilarious. People hang on every word of reviews but the vast majority of people cant tell the difference between grinders, let alone burr styles, in a blind taste test. Congrats to Lance for admitting that people are really only gaining 5 to 10 percent improvement on quality by buying $1,000 plus grinders...the vast majority of this is marketing, confirmation bias and general nonsense. At the end of the day, grinders are very simple mechanical devices with a motor, a decent burr set, a hopper, etc. Once you spend $500 to $1000, its all pretty comparable and the "improvements" are subtle, negligible and cannot be objectively quantified
@tagheuer02 you sound a little bitter. Try adjusting your grinding more coarse. Honestly though 1k for 10% is a good deal if you love coffee and drink it daily. Cars, motorbikes, girls all cost more than 1K to go faster😅
@@tagheuer02I have to agree..At a certain point you start to get diminished returns..I have had a few grinders and espresso machines ranging from "cheap" to mid level and I couldn't tell enough of a difference in taste to justify the price gaps..For instance I had at one time a Rocky,a Breville SGP and a Vario W..Now I liked the fluff of the grinds and the texture that the Vario produces,but the workflow wasn't as good as the SGP,not to mention the Vario just could not grind light roast beans and it eventually broke the transmission where the SGP had no issues at all and is still going and is more than half the price..Maybe its me and I know taste is completely subjective,but when I hear someone say that they taste notes of white Jasmine and nectar from a coffee,I just have to laugh because how many people even know what "white Jasmine" tastes like ? I usually get "well your pallette isnt as advanced" and maybe so,but I have never tasted anything from a coffee bean other than coffee flavor..Sure you can have a sweeter taste or bitter etc but never have I ever tasted a coffee and was like "you know what this taste like bubblegum and juniper" lol...
@@s73v36, anything north of 100 bucks will get you there if you make progress in daily practice and not Turkish or espresso users . But just curious how does one get bitter over a coffee grinder that cost 10000 dollars and what does any of this lifestyle nonsense have to do with learning about coffee brewing . If I were to win a billionaire lottery I still wouldn’t spend 100000 on a coffee ☕️ grinder yet I’d probably still like you if you did😊.
I’m finally done with audio gear and watching this video makes me think I’m going down the same rabbit hole in coffee gear. However, I do drink coffee everyday where as I don’t listen to my audio gear everyday.
Been watching you since I started my espresso journey last year. I enjoy the depth of knowledge you share in your videos. My inner geek/analytical mind needs this level of detail. Looks like the editing is getting better as well!
Lance, thank-you for demystifying coffee. Your mastery of this is pushing the industry away from concepts like 'reserved,' and 'exclusive,' so that it can expand and be more popular; creating a bridge between commodity and specialty. I apologize for my hyper focus on the money being the barrier to entry. I realize now that just like the trajectory of the bicycle industry, the costs of performance always remain unshaken. Even once a consensus is established on what the minimum performance requirements are, and mass-production is achieved, making the sport/activity/hobby popular, and the barrier to entry is removed, this doesn't lower the costs those who are actually performing at medium and high levels. Decent bicycles still cost 1G. So you are right, the cults are the barrier to entry that get removed when gear is mass produced.
I know I am deep in the coffee culture when I enjoy a deep dive into the geometry of burrs :) Thank you Lance for this video. Learned a ton from this video
Lance, you are doing a stellar job! You and your production team have made these videos look more and more amazing everytime. Oh, and the content has continuously been helpful. Keep killing it!
Thanks Lance! Lately I have been unhappy with my grinder for pour overs. I focused back on basic technique and it improved. Was still in market for upgrading grinder but your video was very helpful and made practical sense. I am going to play around with my 3 grinders, different coffees (and techniques) before making decision to get a new grinder.
Loved how the sad song started when you began saying "in my experience bigger does not always mean better..." even if it wasn't on purpose, the editor needs a raise 🎉😂❤
Holy cow. It's been a minute since I caught one of your videos and WOW have you upped your production value. I've always loved your insight and style, but it's cool to see the changes. keep up the awesome work!
Content, video quality, and editing are all ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ .. But... the "in the air" reverb you snuck in there... I cried laughing so much that I almost told you I was drowning!
The intro was awesome. Nice breakdown of the differences on a spectrum or tolerances (as my old boss put it). As a fellow coffee nerd, keep up the good work.
OMG, my friend! That was a tour de force. Two of my strongest compliments are "elegant" and "illuminating"... this video was both. You elegantly identified and broke down the oversimplifications that have become a dreaded conventional wisdom about burr shapes and provided breathtaking illumination of the true subtle, complexity of the topic. Bravo, bravo. Damn, I had that wonderful feeling of becoming smarter as I watched.Thank you sir.
Thank you Lance! Your videos are informative and interesting, nice to watch for recreation and science as well. You’re very enthusiastic about what you’re doing, please keep it going!
Super happy with my Niche zero. The absolute unparalleled ease of use and cleanliness paired with the reliably consistent grind produces excellent results in my Bambino Plus and I had no learning curve with either. I do think I'm going to either modify my NFC disc or get another one that has more holes in it off etsy otherwise my setup is perfect for me
Hey Lance, Let me make a suggestion that has nothing to do with my recent comments about centrifugal force. I wonder if variations in particle size distribution between grinders may have a lot to do with the structure of the grinder body. I observe that when I use my Baratza Encore, the hopper moves around quite a bit while grinding. Its not screwing and unscrewing, it just wiggles. It has done this since new. On the Encore, the hopper serves three purposes: 1. Hopper, 2. Burr spacing adjustment, 3. Ring burr hold down. I suspect the hopper is moving because the ring burr is moving. (What else could it be?) If the ring burr moves during grinding, that changes the ring burr to cone burr spacing, and that probably changes the size of grinds that pass through. Perhaps a factor in more expensive grinders producing tighter particle size distribution is that more expensive grinders tend to have more robust, often metallic rather than plastic construction. How much of tighter particle size distribution is down to rigid construction that keeps the burrs from bouncing around?
Exactly my thought for a long time, lot of this come down to the designed chamber, exit chute, …… so many factors influence the ground. I guess lot of grinder cause regrind and hence change in distribution.
I’m in the biopharm industry and we use pin mills to grind product to very accurate tolerances, pin milling is infinitely better than the burr tech used in grinders, it provides micron based uniformity. I am surprised there has not been more trickle down and exploration of this tech to the coffee industry as this would solve coffee grinder.
I looked into it, seems like pin mills literally "crush" the materials by sheer force... the studs in them have no "blade", sure, the geometry allows wonderful particle distribution, but to break coffee (especially light roasted) without any "blade" you would need impressive motors inside a grinder, not to mention manual...in the end it would have to resemble an industrial machine (big to fit the motor and built like a tank to withstand the torque)
Additionally, there is a turning point to the taste of coffe with too much uniformity. Having perfectly uniform grounds could make the coffee taste worse. I think the channel Kaffeemacher tested this.
Pin mills use screens to ensure the uniformity actually - it's not that the pins/ studs actually do crush to that amount of uniformity required for pharma/ bio use, it's the screens that help with it.
A bit of water can give a lot more clearity. No need to upgrade your grinder! Prior to grinding: put roasted coffee beans in a sealed container and ad some water. Make sure that there is no liquid water coming into contact with the beans. I use a 1000 ml lock & lock box, some clean damp cloth then the tow of the grids that came with the boxes and conain the beans in a nylon mesh bag. Takes ~1 day in a warm room. How it works: Water will evaporate and the beans will suck it up from the gas phase. Tharget ~ 7.5 g water per 100 beans (6 to 9 may be best depending on the settings). If added too much water just add dry beans proportionally. Then rest for ~ 1 day in a new sealed container. Now grind. Note humid coffee extracts much faster in all stages of the brew: 90 to 120 Seconds for 400 ml filter brew can easily deliver extrections in the 20% yield range.
Condensation makes coffee go downhill relatively quickly which we've discovered from taking coffee out of the freezer and immediately opening the package, its fine for the first day or two but if you got more than 2 days of coffee that was exposed to moisture it will go downhill after that. Although James Hoffman had an experiment with 'monsooned' coffee where he intentionally humidified his coffees and they somehow turned out good. I forget the details and how he did it though. Have you compared your humidifying coffee technique with just adding a few RDT sprays before grinding?
@@BensCoffeeRants Hi Ben, the two James Hoffman videos ua-cam.com/video/J7xEbf1mkm0/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/BcXK1MZJDAM/v-deo.html really were the start point for this. James used Boveda 69, a inorganic gel that is designed to hold goods at 69% relative humidity. (A non condensing humidification.) To the staleness problems: That can happen especially when liquid water and not water from the gas phase is used for humidification. And humid coffee even when done properly should be used in 1 to 2 weeks and in between stored air tight. How I came to the Method: I didn't want to wait 4 months for humidification and I didn't want it for storage. So I tried to speed up. First attempt: spray with water (liquid) - tasted strange, but with less fines and went stale within days. Next I tried to humidify via the gas phase - some designs were not good, some intermediate and the lock&lock box described above finally worked. When ever liquid water came in contact with coffee this tasted not good - my Idea at that time was mold growth but I didn't tested it. Just went with gas phase humidification. Next I had to find the best humidity level. Higher humidity= less fines. But at some point grounds started to look strand shaped and extractions tasted weak and acidic. For the coffee I performed the experiments on (yellow bourbon) this tipping started at 8 grams water absorbed by 100 g beans. Therefore I kept humidity to 7.5 per 100 to be at highest humidity without tipping over. I also did some tests especially for the amount of fines that could be removed by sifting and that only became loose during a full immersion brew. Extraction yield was only tested once by gravimetry it was 20% with a error of about 1%. At this high error I didn't continue with this. The Tests I did: Test conditions: Coffee: Yellow Bourbon, Fazienda Miaki, from a small local roaster (kleine Kaffeerösterei Schweinfurt), light roast Validation with a yirgacheffe landrase Later: taste-only Tests with about 3 more coffees, including a espresso blend. Grinder: Comandante C40 MK3 Nitro Blade, set to 24 clicks, mostly driven by the GaWoody Power Kit, sometimes also manually Extraction Device: 10 Cup Chemex, mostly Chemex Filter papers (FP1, FC100 or FS100, as available - tests were done during the pandemic and filters were not easily available) Water: 91 °C (setting of the bonavita kettle) Fairly hard ~20°dH tap water (mainly Ca(2+), less Mg(2+), mainly SO4(2-), less HCO3(-) Ions Tee sieve, fine metal sieve, but without Calibration for fines separation. Later calibrated against a kruve sifter: the tea sieve was slightly finer than the 800 micron sieve. Results - as expected water droplet technique helps with static charges during grinding, but has only marginal impact on fines produced - Humidified beans lead to roughly 50 % less fines produced (sifted with the tea sieve) both sieva-able and non-sieve-able later done on the kruve sifter: dry or humid: no massive fines below 300 microns at 500 microns there is a ~30% reduction. at 800 microns there is a ~50% reduction. Non-sieve-able fines is always reduced by ~50%. Best regards Data part: For import to any spread sheet program: Copy data in a empty text editor file, save as .CSV Column Separator : Decimal Sign . ::Unit:grams:grams:grams:grams:% of Output:grams:grams:grams Filter and non-:grams:% of non-fines dry:% of non-siftable Coffee:Repeat:Test Condition:Beans Input:WDT water:Grounds Output:non-fines (wet):Siftable Fines:non-fines (dry):Tara Filter:Siftable fines after air drying:non-siftable fines:non-siftable fines:from siftable fines brasil yellow bourbon:1:Dry. no WDT:26.28:0:26.33:20.33:22.79:20.33:4.30:5.32:1.02:5.02:22.02 brasil yellow bourbon:2:Dry. no WDT:26.30:0:26.16:20.05:23.36:20.05:4.18:5.22:1.04:5.19:22.21 brasil yellow bourbon:3:Dry. no WDT:26.31:0:26.24:20.43:22.14:20.43:not measured. average Tara of the other Filters used instead to calculate non-siftable fines:5.20:0.92:4.52:20.39 brasil yellow bourbon:1:Humid (7.5% added Water):26.26:0:26.27:23.15:11.88:21.53:4.40:4.96:0.56:2.60:21.90 brasil yellow bourbon:2:Humid (7.5% added Water):26.33:0:26.33:23.39:11.17:21.76:4.24:4.78:0.54:2.48:22.23 brasil yellow bourbon:3:Humid (7.5% added Water):26.27:0:not measured Input used instead to calculate % Fines:22.87:12.94:21.27:4.29:4.76:0.47:2.21:17.07 brasil yellow bourbon:1:Dry. with WDT:23.36:0.06:26.42:20.58:22.10:20.53:4.28:5.22:0.94:4.58:20.72 brasil yellow bourbon:2:Dry. with WDT:26.29:0.06:26.27:20.77:20.94:20.72:4.25:5.19:0.94:4.54:21.67 brasil yellow bourbon:3:Dry. with WDT:26.34:0.08:26.42:20.57:22.14:20.51:4.28:5.20:0.92:4.49:20.26 ::::::::::::: :::::::Mean Tara Filter::4.28:::: ::::::::::::: yirgacheffe:1:Dry. no WDT:26.33:0:26.26:20.11:23.42:20.11:5.27:6.13:0.86:4.28:18.26 yirgacheffe:2:Dry. no WDT:26.30:0:26.16:21.01:19.69:21.01:5.37:6.20:0.83:3.95:20.07 yirgacheffe:3:Dry. no WDT:26.33:0:26.33:21.13:19.75:21.13:5.50:6.31:0.81:3.83:19.41 yirgacheffe:1:Humid (7.5% added Water):26.33:0:26.30:23.20:11.79:21.58:5.30:5.72:0.42:1.95:16.51 yirgacheffe:2:Humid (7.5% added Water):26.31:0:26.28:23.64:10.05:21.99:5.38:5.81:0.43:1.96:19.46 yirgacheffe:3:Humid (7.5% added Water):26.31:0:26.37:23.28:11.72:21.66:5.37:5.79:0.42:1.94:16.55
@@mariolange9102 Wow thanks for the details! And finding those videos for me! With your motorized C40 is it grinding at higher RPM or similar to hand grinding?
Incredibly technical commentary regarding theory and concept, thanks~ personally just a hand-grinder so it is great to understand the benefit of clarity that can be gained from a more gradual grind.
Hey Lance, a quick feedback that I often think about when watching your videos: when you hold something in your hand or point towards it like here 6:12 , my brain immediately expects a zoom in and is disappointed when it doesn't happen or happens much later than expected.
Interesting point on temperature with conical burrs. I much prefer a 70° or lower drinking temperature with my JX. I don't even bother drinking it right after brewing and i'm much happier with the result since i do that. Lower temp provides a good body with a balanced acidity, at least for my taste.
Since conical hand grinders have the ability to produce great filter coffee, if something like say, a Kafatek MC was reduced to an extremely low RPM, would the results be similar, is there something to hand power that vs a continual mechanically drive. grind speed that naturally produces less fines?
Thanks for this video. I have a very inadequate grinder set- up that i would like to upgrade. UA-cam videos have been a great resource (don't do Facebook, not gonna). BUT, I'm a civil engineer. Not a geotech, but there are so many similarities with soul mechanics! I find myself just wanting to see particle size distibution curves! That would be a start. Linking distribution parameters to flavour profile would be the second, more challenging, step. Thanks for giving some ideas on that. Wish we had access to coffee tastings in the same way that wine and beer tastings are held..... In the meantime while i try to learn more, im using my low-end conical grinder to coarse grind the beans and then "finishing" in my low- end hand grinder to get something fine enough for espresso on a medium roast. Also tried compacting in lifts for all you engineers out there....
Im still holding on to that timemore pledge, i've got 10 days to decide.This was a good preparation video for when watching the review videos of the timemore 78s
My only extensive personal experience is the comparison between the italimill stainless steel and the ssp cast lab in my df64p. I liked the stock burrs but had issues with sourness in light roasts. With the cast burrs I have completely eliminated sourness excluding dial in shots. Mt brief experience with a handgrinder isn't fair because I was using sub standard beans at the time, but the shots tended to be thicker (probably more due to robusta % in the beans).
Nice walk through, however the EK is not just a spice grinder it has always been used for coffee as it could come in both spice and grain configurations. They had them in smaller shops all across northern europe etc. for years before Rao even mentioned it.
Great review! What is the best coffee grinders (in your opinion) that produce the more chocolatey flavour but has absolutely no plastic in the machine at all? If you have several ones you could recommend even that would be better again since in Australia we don't seem to have the same range sometimes as Americans :)
In my relatively brief journey into brewing coffee with higher attention to detail (about one year) I have only used conical hand grinders for espresso and pour overs. I currently use a 1zpresso x pro for pour overs, which I love, but feel like I’m hitting a ceiling for the amount of clarity I can get in a pour over (not even totally sure I would prefer more clarity). I have recently been sifting out about 1g of fines per 16g dose, occasionally, in attempts to dial in towards more clarity. Would this theoretically get more further into the neighborhood of what higher clarity flats can do, or should I maybe just consider initiating myself into the realm of flats? I have been eyeing the ode gen2. Lance, thank you so much for all the help along the way!
hey! I think sifting out fines, especially 1g daily, can get wasteful. But if you are finding you are preferring those cups, do it! You could also try grinding while holding the handgrinder at a 45 degree angle before feeling like you need to shell out more dough for another grinder. This angle will actually slow the feedrate and will cause a different interaction between the beans and the burrs. Give that a try!
@@LanceHedrickWow. Is the 45 degree angle anything you explained before? I am at 5 minute mark, so maybe it is in here. I am not sifting and like the body mouth feel chocolatey profiles, but tend toward 45 angle for handling ease against my body. Inadvertently added a variable to control for!?
@@LanceHedrick thanks again, Lance! Yah I have wondered if this is actually wasteful if after removing fines I can push the extraction of the rest of the coffee further before getting a bitter astringency (I usually grind a bit finer with fines removed). Is it actually wasteful if it produces the same volume cup with the same strength as if no fines were removed? Idk interesting philosophical question tho. I also occasionally add the fines back in after the final pour and do a shallow swirl with a chopstick, so that they can add a little body and flavor, hopefully without giving the cup a bit of a chalky bitter finish (which is what I’ve been attempting to get rid of). will def try the 45 degree angle trick! 📐 thank you so much for following up with your commenters!
@@Ma_Ba absolutely! I experienced this and been only hand grinding coffee for a couple months. In my 1Zpresso J-Max the difference is astonishing. From grinding vertically to 45 degrees or almost horizontal can be as different as getting an espresso in 5 seconds or in like 90 seconds or completely choked. It’s ridiculous. I was shocked that I couldn’t find anyone talking about this online. So glad to finally see an expert mentioning this behaviour, so thanks to you Lance!
I don't have a gourmet taste, so I put off buying a grinder for years. But one day I saw a cheap blender type grinder at Walmart. Wow! What a difference. That one has now broke, so I stepped up to a $59 burr grinder. Even better. I wonder where it is that I would not be able to detect a significant improvement.
I believe that the difference in taste between a conical burr and a flat burr is primarily anecdotal more than anything else. I wonder if there is any empirical data on this.
What I take of all this is what essentially everything boils down in this crazy journey: TASTE; and each individual one is what really matters. No doubt you can have a general idea and some guidance from groups or people like you Lance or Hoffman or Rao, etc, but until you can try for yourself, there’s no way to know for sure. The best someone can do in my opinion is to get it as close as possible, base on personal preference and then adjust/change if need it. At least this is an honest opinion without the push of a particular type of product and that to me is more important. Saludos!!!
Ok, this breakdown was really, really, I mean r e a l l y needed. This spectrum thing with your hands... couldn't anyone else have done it before? I have a feeling that this video - or its essence at least - is going to be discussed for years to come. The like button is not enough in this case. My hat is off...
This is a great breakdown of how the burrs actually function and I think brings some valuable nuance to the discussion of conical vs flat burrs! But now I'm left wondering: My plan was always to get a decent conical burr grinder and a decent flat burr grinder to have some diversity in the flavor profiles different brew methods can get out of a given bean. I've settled on a Baratza Preciso that I've serviced and cleaned up and swapped some new M2 burrs in for my conical grinder and I was going to try out the Timemore Sculptor 064S as my flat burr grinder. But will they REALLY produce a different enough cup profile to make it worth having both of them?
Hey Lance! Would you be interested in making a video going into the different coffee regions around the world and what characterizes them? It would be awesome to learn a bit more about different coffees, making it easier to shop in stores and online. It would be perfect as a follow up to "care about the beans, not always the gear"
Hey Lance, not sure if you respond to old videos, but I've been using my Chestnut C2 for a while now, probably over a year and am looking to upgrade into an electric grinder. My budget doesn't allow a Timemore 064S, though that would be my end-game grinder. My needs are a "do-it-all" grinder around $350. I have experience with the Fellow Ode gen 1, but it doesn't grind fine enough for espresso, at least in my opinion. I've heard that you can update the burrs on the Ode to grind finer, so that's an option as well. I'm starting to think the Baratza ESP is the way to go, but I'm hesitant with the retention and have this idea that a little more money will go a long way in this regard. Any thoughts or recommendations?
I thoroughly enjoyed the learning and the science up until now but it clearly made me bark up the wrong tree by chasing gear. I'm now ready to tune out and enjoy coffee by just exploring different beans. It's easier said than done but I'ma try my best.
Great video Lance, Nerdy but not deep engineer level. I appreciate you explaining how the burrs work with the different stages of teeth to crush and cut the coffee. I have multiple flat and conical grinders. They all have different taste profiles which fall throughout the spectrum. I agree with you that burr design plays bigger role in taste then just flat vs cone. With the 64mm grinder platform you have huge range of burrs and people can pick the taste profile they want with custom installed burrs.
Hey Lance, this is out of topic but can i suggest a video about trying to make the most out of budget home espresso machine (eg: delonghi) where you upgrade most of the essential parts such as changing the shower screen, using puck screen, upgrading the filter basket, modding it, etc..? I think it'll be interesting to see how it compares to default mid-high end machine when all of its essential parts are upgraded.
I’ve done it. The truly essential changes you need to take a cheap DeLonghi and make great espresso with it: 1. Knowledge of temperature. A cheap digital remote thermometer, place the sensor on the boiler/thermoblock. You’ll know exactly when the heat has gotten to where you want it. 2. A dimmer for flow control. All the other stuff is secondary.
@@Gk2003m Yeah, i would love to see how it compares to other machines. Me personally the upgrades and accessories that are highly effective in improving my shots are dimmer mod and puck screen, especially the newer thinner models not the mesh one. Although i mostly make espresso as a base and not drink it straight, it really helps with the channeling which is my main issue with my cheap machine
This video was perfect timing as I am figuring out my end-game grinders, and I have been reading about burrs and grinders online. Was real happy to see this video and wouldn't mind more of them. This was insightful to me. Thank you very much.
Thanks for explaining the mechanics of griding. Would be interesting to see one or more videos on maintenance and cleaning for both the grinder and espresso machines
I was thinking about this as I was contemplating getting a new grinder for drip/pourover. I'm able to get a lot of clarity from my 1zpresso hand grinder... so I've been thinking it's more related to how the beans are fed through... which seems to be confirmed by your statements here. It's the feed rate and cutting surface area. While I'm happy with my conical burrs, I ended up chosing the Timemore 64 because I like the idea of having multiple interchangeable burrs
Lance, my “humble” set up is the old encore, going on 7 or 8 years. Burrs are basically shot. Should I replace burrs or upgrade my grinder? I’m on a bit of budget, wanting a flat burr grinder, but have been sitting and watching for sometime. Straight don’t know which angle to take, with pre buyers remorse lol
I agree conical and flats can't be really grouped in bunches; saying one is like THIS and other is always like THAT. Different grinders and different burrs give different profiles usually. Since I got the Weber Key I've been saying, some conical burrs are more flat-like than others, some flats are more conical-like than others (Flat burred Baratza Vario with ceramic burrs or most Eureka grinders are seeming more 'conical' than Weber HG2 or Key maybe even the 1zPresso K series as well which are all conical burr grinder).
Really great review… at the end of the day try if you like the coffee,it produces 👍 but reviews help you to get your pick right in the first place…. THANK YOU👍😊 I love your style and knowledge a great mix…
I've really been wondering about grind size. Like, what would my coffee be like if I didn't care how much I used? I could grind my coffee much more coarsely if I was willing to use more, and the more I was willing to use, the more course it could be, to an extant. This would obviously alter the taste, and I wonder where the sweet spot is for my beans.
Great video as always Lance. I’ve found that I myself couldn’t really tell someone the difference between flat and cone. This video was helpful. I don’t feel as bad now not really knowing.
I think this alligns with a lot of things in life. You could make an easy transition to people loving a specific brand of cars without any justification. And even popular brands have shitty cars from time to time. Some of the bias already comes from the fact that people know a specific grinder (be it conical or flat) and know how it behaves. As soon as they try the same bean on a different grinder, because they want to see if the grass is greener with the other burr type, that they do not know the grinder and therefore are biased to their own experience. I used both conical (hand and electric) and flat burr grinders and after dialing in they all taste great. But which one is better? I still don't know!! And there probably is no right answer. Part of this ongoing discussion is fueled by mankind always wanting more, nowadays everybody always wants more (I'm no exception 🙈). Thank you for making this valuable content Lance!! Love most of it, and i like everything ;)
One thing that might be nice for the misophonics is a timestamp in the description for when the slurps are over so they can hop over it without having to guess
Well, just thinking out loud: what about start messing about portafilter sizes? Like 56 o 60mm? How does that would change espresso? I am thinking of all kind of different espresso and espresso machines. I understand the 58 is the go to for a all lot bunch of reasons which is not worth explaining here, but, just for the sake of the argument, what about creating a lever machine with a basket of 56mm ? Or what about having light roasted coffee in 60 mm basket compared to 58? how does that is going to affect the taste ?
Where does the option-o lagom mini stand? Especially the moonshine burrs, they are meant for more clarity profiles. How does it stand against flat burrs that are designed for clarity? Is it far away and is quite “chocolaty” or is it more “tea” like. Thanks for answers!
Can you elaborate on why the feed rate into the burrs impacts the amount of fines generated? Does a faster feed rate generate more fines because it causes new beans entering the burrs to have to “wait” for previous beans to exit the burrs and this causing excessive regrinding? Or am I missing the mark?
Let's chat below! Does this fly in the face of what you thought you knew? Is this in alignment with your experiences? Are you intrigued with upcoming pushes in trying to understand burrs? Or is this all just white noise? ha! Thanks for watching and engaging!
I have a niche and I like it, I do think it would be fun to get a flat bur grinder, and try it, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it for me. I like the espresso I make more than the stuff I get at most cafes in the major city I live in. ( I think most cafes just tend to be inconsistent unfortunately). I wish there was a way I could try the different grinders myself for a week or so and see if I would really notice any taste difference.
Also curious about dialing in... With my niche zero and my e61 machine, with beans I am familiar with the sweet spot for good shots is pretty wide and I can get there just by guessing usually. It's nice to not waste any shots or force myself to drink a sour bomb. Would that change if I got a flat bur?
What I'm missing is the next level of science behind this. For instance, I'd assume that for the same coffee, if you were able to achieve a similar grind distribution, it should taste the same in the cup regardless of what burr / geometry you used to achieve it. (Barring chemical changes to the coffee, for example overheating burrs). Then if you establish that, you should be able to associate certain cupping characteristics to certain properties of the grind distribution.
For example, you tasted two dozen (?) different burrs before landing on the V2 Ode burrs. Assuming you controlled for coffee origin, freshness & brew method, any differences in taste must map directly back to grind distribution created by the burrs.
I'm kind of excited here because there's a potential for coffee tasting to be "solved" in a way that wine tasting can't - coffee nerds love to bust out their thermal probes and challenge their perception in a way that the wine industry refuses to (at least publicly).
I feel like we're only talking about small margins here. Having a high quality grinder is always better than no grinder, no matter if coned or flat.
I got myself a Comandante for Christmas and have always had better coffee since
Just recently got into thinking about grinder burrs with the Sculptor Kickstarter, and this does clarify a lot for me. I'm usually a darker roast kind of person favoring body, and wasn't quite sure about getting a flat burr grinder since I'd always hear them associated with light roasts and clarity.
Sounds like on the Sculptor for example, if I take the S burrs with the pre-breakers, and use higher RPMs, that should be the path forward for preferring dark roasts and body?
What if you grind the same beans at different speeds on a variable speed grinder and then compare the percentage of fines, coarse and in between particles generated. Then brew an espresso with that grind and compare the taste profile against the spectrum you mentioned? 🙂
I'm an Industrial Design major who will be designing a coffee grinder for her final project, I can't explain how helpful this video has been! Thank you and love from Argentina
Im not putting any bias on any type. But Theoretically,
- given exactly same stability and precision, larger burrs make more even ground particles plus less heat, longevity(which may not matter to the average consumers) and stuff.
- Stability and precision is what matters the most for more even ground
- flat burrs are A LOT “easier” to stabilize by design, but are more expensive, and tend to require a stronger motor. (same applies for larger burrs)
- flat burrs tasting more balanced and refined means they are more evenly ground
This is like sound system. A super balanced sound is not necessarily fun for everyone. Some like more bassy and with more treble. So it’s not a matter of supriority but of preference.
Now someone needs to come out with a Flone burr. That'll solve everything.
Theres one in America where they use a cone burr prebreaker and a flat burr for final cuts. Supposedly is absolutely outstanding. I am honestly shocked to realize that Lance has never reviewed any of their grinders
KafaTek Max. Very interesting company and grinders. VERY EXPENSIVE
I much prefer the idea of cat burrs
Or
Cat purrs.... too far?
@@user-jm8ky1kn2t Only the MAX2 has the prebreaker; no older Monolith units (pre-March 2023) have this kind of design. Predating these newest Monoliths, the Versalab M4 grinder also uses a conical-flat hybrid system
So... DRM burrs.. Been out for AWHILE!
@@user-jm8ky1kn2tprobably because he's a man of the people and not reviewing the 1%ers
The production value of every video is better then the one before. Great work Lance and crew!
What? I keep waiting for some closeups of details that I can never really see even on my retina display 27" screen.
This was intensely nerdy but a really cool breakdown! Love these more technical-style videos. Would appreciate having chapters/timestamps where you address different topics, like RPM, teeth geometry, and size.
smart. I'll go through later and add them!
@@LanceHedrick reminder
@@LanceHedrickreminder :)
The whole high end coffee market is hilarious. People hang on every word of reviews but the vast majority of people cant tell the difference between grinders, let alone burr styles, in a blind taste test. Congrats to Lance for admitting that people are really only gaining 5 to 10 percent improvement on quality by buying $1,000 plus grinders...the vast majority of this is marketing, confirmation bias and general nonsense. At the end of the day, grinders are very simple mechanical devices with a motor, a decent burr set, a hopper, etc. Once you spend $500 to $1000, its all pretty comparable and the "improvements" are subtle, negligible and cannot be objectively quantified
@tagheuer02 you sound a little bitter. Try adjusting your grinding more coarse.
Honestly though 1k for 10% is a good deal if you love coffee and drink it daily. Cars, motorbikes, girls all cost more than 1K to go faster😅
@s73v36 not at all. My point is you can get all these features for half the price this guy is quoting
@@tagheuer02I have to agree..At a certain point you start to get diminished returns..I have had a few grinders and espresso machines ranging from "cheap" to mid level and I couldn't tell enough of a difference in taste to justify the price gaps..For instance I had at one time a Rocky,a Breville SGP and a Vario W..Now I liked the fluff of the grinds and the texture that the Vario produces,but the workflow wasn't as good as the SGP,not to mention the Vario just could not grind light roast beans and it eventually broke the transmission where the SGP had no issues at all and is still going and is more than half the price..Maybe its me and I know taste is completely subjective,but when I hear someone say that they taste notes of white Jasmine and nectar from a coffee,I just have to laugh because how many people even know what "white Jasmine" tastes like ? I usually get "well your pallette isnt as advanced" and maybe so,but I have never tasted anything from a coffee bean other than coffee flavor..Sure you can have a sweeter taste or bitter etc but never have I ever tasted a coffee and was like "you know what this taste like bubblegum and juniper" lol...
@@s73v36, anything north of 100 bucks will get you there if you make progress in daily practice and not Turkish or espresso users . But just curious how does one get bitter over a coffee grinder that cost 10000 dollars and what does any of this lifestyle nonsense have to do with learning about coffee brewing . If I were to win a billionaire lottery I still wouldn’t spend 100000 on a coffee ☕️ grinder yet I’d probably still like you if you did😊.
@@tagheuer02outta interest, what would you say is the best bang for buck grinder before you go to diminishing gains
I’m finally done with audio gear and watching this video makes me think I’m going down the same rabbit hole in coffee gear. However, I do drink coffee everyday where as I don’t listen to my audio gear everyday.
Been watching you since I started my espresso journey last year. I enjoy the depth of knowledge you share in your videos. My inner geek/analytical mind needs this level of detail. Looks like the editing is getting better as well!
heck yeah! thank you so much!
Pretty concise way of describing my sentiments as well. Thank you
Lance, thank-you for demystifying coffee. Your mastery of this is pushing the industry away from concepts like 'reserved,' and 'exclusive,' so that it can expand and be more popular; creating a bridge between commodity and specialty. I apologize for my hyper focus on the money being the barrier to entry. I realize now that just like the trajectory of the bicycle industry, the costs of performance always remain unshaken. Even once a consensus is established on what the minimum performance requirements are, and mass-production is achieved, making the sport/activity/hobby popular, and the barrier to entry is removed, this doesn't lower the costs those who are actually performing at medium and high levels. Decent bicycles still cost 1G. So you are right, the cults are the barrier to entry that get removed when gear is mass produced.
I know I am deep in the coffee culture when I enjoy a deep dive into the geometry of burrs :)
Thank you Lance for this video. Learned a ton from this video
Lance, you are doing a stellar job! You and your production team have made these videos look more and more amazing everytime. Oh, and the content has continuously been helpful. Keep killing it!
Thanks Lance! Lately I have been unhappy with my grinder for pour overs. I focused back on basic technique and it improved. Was still in market for upgrading grinder but your video was very helpful and made practical sense. I am going to play around with my 3 grinders, different coffees (and techniques) before making decision to get a new grinder.
This is one of your better technical videos, thank you.
Loved how the sad song started when you began saying "in my experience bigger does not always mean better..." even if it wasn't on purpose, the editor needs a raise 🎉😂❤
Holy cow. It's been a minute since I caught one of your videos and WOW have you upped your production value. I've always loved your insight and style, but it's cool to see the changes. keep up the awesome work!
Great video. Thank you for clarifying this tough topic so good and understandable.
thank you for watching and engaging!
Thanks for demythologizing, Lance! Love that. There’s too much myth in coffee
I hope it helps instead of just adding confusion to what people thought was black and white haha!
Happy staying with my Niche. I've decided to explore within its capabilities and maximising what it offers
I love that decision!
@@LanceHedrick Still enjoying your grind/brew/extract/enjoyment presentations and attitude though Lance. Very much 🖖🏻
Content, video quality, and editing are all ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ .. But... the "in the air" reverb you snuck in there... I cried laughing so much that I almost told you I was drowning!
The intro was awesome. Nice breakdown of the differences on a spectrum or tolerances (as my old boss put it). As a fellow coffee nerd, keep up the good work.
All you have to do to grind light roast beans on a Breville is slow feed them. Or just pre grind at a coarser setting then refeed them on final grind.
OMG, my friend! That was a tour de force. Two of my strongest compliments are "elegant" and "illuminating"... this video was both. You elegantly identified and broke down the oversimplifications that have become a dreaded conventional wisdom about burr shapes and provided breathtaking illumination of the true subtle, complexity of the topic. Bravo, bravo. Damn, I had that wonderful feeling of becoming smarter as I watched.Thank you sir.
Thank you Lance! Your videos are informative and interesting, nice to watch for recreation and science as well. You’re very enthusiastic about what you’re doing, please keep it going!
Super happy with my Niche zero. The absolute unparalleled ease of use and cleanliness paired with the reliably consistent grind produces excellent results in my Bambino Plus and I had no learning curve with either. I do think I'm going to either modify my NFC disc or get another one that has more holes in it off etsy otherwise my setup is perfect for me
Hey Lance, Let me make a suggestion that has nothing to do with my recent comments about centrifugal force. I wonder if variations in particle size distribution between grinders may have a lot to do with the structure of the grinder body.
I observe that when I use my Baratza Encore, the hopper moves around quite a bit while grinding. Its not screwing and unscrewing, it just wiggles. It has done this since new. On the Encore, the hopper serves three purposes: 1. Hopper, 2. Burr spacing adjustment, 3. Ring burr hold down. I suspect the hopper is moving because the ring burr is moving. (What else could it be?) If the ring burr moves during grinding, that changes the ring burr to cone burr spacing, and that probably changes the size of grinds that pass through. Perhaps a factor in more expensive grinders producing tighter particle size distribution is that more expensive grinders tend to have more robust, often metallic rather than plastic construction. How much of tighter particle size distribution is down to rigid construction that keeps the burrs from bouncing around?
Exactly my thought for a long time, lot of this come down to the designed chamber, exit chute, …… so many factors influence the ground. I guess lot of grinder cause regrind and hence change in distribution.
I've started weighing the hopper down with my hand during grinding. Don't know if it helps, but in my mind it does
Really enjoy your demythologizing series. Keep it up Lance, you rock!
heck yeah! didn't think of it as a series, but maybe I need to make one!
I’m in the biopharm industry and we use pin mills to grind product to very accurate tolerances, pin milling is infinitely better than the burr tech used in grinders, it provides micron based uniformity. I am surprised there has not been more trickle down and exploration of this tech to the coffee industry as this would solve coffee grinder.
I looked into it, seems like pin mills literally "crush" the materials by sheer force... the studs in them have no "blade", sure, the geometry allows wonderful particle distribution, but to break coffee (especially light roasted) without any "blade" you would need impressive motors inside a grinder, not to mention manual...in the end it would have to resemble an industrial machine (big to fit the motor and built like a tank to withstand the torque)
Additionally, there is a turning point to the taste of coffe with too much uniformity. Having perfectly uniform grounds could make the coffee taste worse. I think the channel Kaffeemacher tested this.
Pin mills use screens to ensure the uniformity actually - it's not that the pins/ studs actually do crush to that amount of uniformity required for pharma/ bio use, it's the screens that help with it.
A bit of water can give a lot more clearity.
No need to upgrade your grinder!
Prior to grinding: put roasted coffee beans in a sealed container and ad some water. Make sure that there is no liquid water coming into contact with the beans.
I use a 1000 ml lock & lock box, some clean damp cloth then the tow of the grids that came with the boxes and conain the beans in a nylon mesh bag. Takes ~1 day in a warm room.
How it works: Water will evaporate and the beans will suck it up from the gas phase.
Tharget ~ 7.5 g water per 100 beans (6 to 9 may be best depending on the settings). If added too much water just add dry beans proportionally. Then rest for ~ 1 day in a new sealed container. Now grind. Note humid coffee extracts much faster in all stages of the brew: 90 to 120 Seconds for 400 ml filter brew can easily deliver extrections in the 20% yield range.
@@CJski Oh than I'm ready for future:-)
(This morning discussed on the radio "Deutschlandfunk" how many jobs AI will overtake - hmm...)
Condensation makes coffee go downhill relatively quickly which we've discovered from taking coffee out of the freezer and immediately opening the package, its fine for the first day or two but if you got more than 2 days of coffee that was exposed to moisture it will go downhill after that. Although James Hoffman had an experiment with 'monsooned' coffee where he intentionally humidified his coffees and they somehow turned out good. I forget the details and how he did it though.
Have you compared your humidifying coffee technique with just adding a few RDT sprays before grinding?
@@BensCoffeeRants Hi Ben,
the two James Hoffman videos
ua-cam.com/video/J7xEbf1mkm0/v-deo.html
and
ua-cam.com/video/BcXK1MZJDAM/v-deo.html
really were the start point for this.
James used Boveda 69, a inorganic gel that is designed to hold goods at 69% relative humidity. (A non condensing humidification.)
To the staleness problems: That can happen especially when liquid water and not water from the gas phase is used for humidification. And humid coffee even when done properly should be used in 1 to 2 weeks and in between stored air tight.
How I came to the Method:
I didn't want to wait 4 months for humidification and I didn't want it for storage. So I tried to speed up. First attempt: spray with water (liquid) - tasted strange, but with less fines and went stale within days.
Next I tried to humidify via the gas phase - some designs were not good, some intermediate and the lock&lock box described above finally worked. When ever liquid water came in contact with coffee this tasted not good - my Idea at that time was mold growth but I didn't tested it. Just went with gas phase humidification.
Next I had to find the best humidity level. Higher humidity= less fines. But at some point grounds started to look strand shaped and extractions tasted weak and acidic. For the coffee I performed the experiments on (yellow bourbon) this tipping started at 8 grams water absorbed by 100 g beans. Therefore I kept humidity to 7.5 per 100 to be at highest humidity without tipping over.
I also did some tests especially for the amount of fines that could be removed by sifting and that only became loose during a full immersion brew. Extraction yield was only tested once by gravimetry it was 20% with a error of about 1%. At this high error I didn't continue with this.
The Tests I did:
Test conditions:
Coffee:
Yellow Bourbon, Fazienda Miaki, from a small local roaster (kleine Kaffeerösterei Schweinfurt), light roast
Validation with a yirgacheffe landrase
Later: taste-only Tests with about 3 more coffees, including a espresso blend.
Grinder:
Comandante C40 MK3 Nitro Blade, set to 24 clicks, mostly driven by the GaWoody Power Kit, sometimes also manually
Extraction Device:
10 Cup Chemex, mostly Chemex Filter papers (FP1, FC100 or FS100, as available - tests were done during the pandemic and filters were not easily available)
Water:
91 °C (setting of the bonavita kettle)
Fairly hard ~20°dH tap water (mainly Ca(2+), less Mg(2+), mainly SO4(2-), less HCO3(-) Ions
Tee sieve, fine metal sieve, but without Calibration for fines separation. Later calibrated against a kruve sifter: the tea sieve was slightly finer than the 800 micron sieve.
Results
- as expected water droplet technique helps with static charges during grinding, but has only marginal impact on fines produced
- Humidified beans lead to roughly 50 % less fines produced (sifted with the tea sieve) both sieva-able and non-sieve-able
later done on the kruve sifter: dry or humid: no massive fines below 300 microns
at 500 microns there is a ~30% reduction.
at 800 microns there is a ~50% reduction.
Non-sieve-able fines is always reduced by ~50%.
Best regards
Data part:
For import to any spread sheet program:
Copy data in a empty text editor file, save as .CSV
Column Separator :
Decimal Sign .
::Unit:grams:grams:grams:grams:% of Output:grams:grams:grams Filter and
non-:grams:% of non-fines dry:% of non-siftable
Coffee:Repeat:Test Condition:Beans Input:WDT water:Grounds
Output:non-fines (wet):Siftable Fines:non-fines (dry):Tara
Filter:Siftable fines after air drying:non-siftable fines:non-siftable
fines:from siftable fines
brasil yellow bourbon:1:Dry. no
WDT:26.28:0:26.33:20.33:22.79:20.33:4.30:5.32:1.02:5.02:22.02
brasil yellow bourbon:2:Dry. no
WDT:26.30:0:26.16:20.05:23.36:20.05:4.18:5.22:1.04:5.19:22.21
brasil yellow bourbon:3:Dry. no WDT:26.31:0:26.24:20.43:22.14:20.43:not
measured. average Tara of the other Filters used instead to calculate
non-siftable fines:5.20:0.92:4.52:20.39
brasil yellow bourbon:1:Humid (7.5% added
Water):26.26:0:26.27:23.15:11.88:21.53:4.40:4.96:0.56:2.60:21.90
brasil yellow bourbon:2:Humid (7.5% added
Water):26.33:0:26.33:23.39:11.17:21.76:4.24:4.78:0.54:2.48:22.23
brasil yellow bourbon:3:Humid (7.5% added Water):26.27:0:not measured
Input used instead to calculate %
Fines:22.87:12.94:21.27:4.29:4.76:0.47:2.21:17.07
brasil yellow bourbon:1:Dry. with
WDT:23.36:0.06:26.42:20.58:22.10:20.53:4.28:5.22:0.94:4.58:20.72
brasil yellow bourbon:2:Dry. with
WDT:26.29:0.06:26.27:20.77:20.94:20.72:4.25:5.19:0.94:4.54:21.67
brasil yellow bourbon:3:Dry. with
WDT:26.34:0.08:26.42:20.57:22.14:20.51:4.28:5.20:0.92:4.49:20.26
:::::::::::::
:::::::Mean Tara Filter::4.28::::
:::::::::::::
yirgacheffe:1:Dry. no
WDT:26.33:0:26.26:20.11:23.42:20.11:5.27:6.13:0.86:4.28:18.26
yirgacheffe:2:Dry. no
WDT:26.30:0:26.16:21.01:19.69:21.01:5.37:6.20:0.83:3.95:20.07
yirgacheffe:3:Dry. no
WDT:26.33:0:26.33:21.13:19.75:21.13:5.50:6.31:0.81:3.83:19.41
yirgacheffe:1:Humid (7.5% added
Water):26.33:0:26.30:23.20:11.79:21.58:5.30:5.72:0.42:1.95:16.51
yirgacheffe:2:Humid (7.5% added
Water):26.31:0:26.28:23.64:10.05:21.99:5.38:5.81:0.43:1.96:19.46
yirgacheffe:3:Humid (7.5% added
Water):26.31:0:26.37:23.28:11.72:21.66:5.37:5.79:0.42:1.94:16.55
@@mariolange9102 Wow thanks for the details! And finding those videos for me!
With your motorized C40 is it grinding at higher RPM or similar to hand grinding?
I was so surprised this video wasn’t 40-60 minutes when I saw the title 😂 Good job delivering a lot of value in a shorter amount of time 🙂
amazing production quality!
Incredibly technical commentary regarding theory and concept, thanks~ personally just a hand-grinder so it is great to understand the benefit of clarity that can be gained from a more gradual grind.
Exactly the video I need before jumping on my first electric grinder
heck yeah! Love when serendipitous things happen
I am loving these PSA style videos. 🎉 letting people know there is more to grinders that cone vs flat.
heck yeah! Appreciate it!!!
You are quality entertainment. That to me is above just informing me. Love it!
Hey Lance, a quick feedback that I often think about when watching your videos: when you hold something in your hand or point towards it like here 6:12 , my brain immediately expects a zoom in and is disappointed when it doesn't happen or happens much later than expected.
Much love and respect ✊🏽 my man Lance 👏
Interesting point on temperature with conical burrs. I much prefer a 70° or lower drinking temperature with my JX. I don't even bother drinking it right after brewing and i'm much happier with the result since i do that. Lower temp provides a good body with a balanced acidity, at least for my taste.
Since conical hand grinders have the ability to produce great filter coffee, if something like say, a Kafatek MC was reduced to an extremely low RPM, would the results be similar, is there something to hand power that vs a continual mechanically drive. grind speed that naturally produces less fines?
Man I love this! Credit to the team its amazing!
thank you! compliments to the chef
Thank you for bringing light to how geometry influences distribution!
absolutely! Hope it was helpful
I love your vocabulary man I’m no one but I’m being genuine
Thanks for this video. I have a very inadequate grinder set- up that i would like to upgrade. UA-cam videos have been a great resource (don't do Facebook, not gonna).
BUT, I'm a civil engineer. Not a geotech, but there are so many similarities with soul mechanics!
I find myself just wanting to see particle size distibution curves!
That would be a start. Linking distribution parameters to flavour profile would be the second, more challenging, step. Thanks for giving some ideas on that.
Wish we had access to coffee tastings in the same way that wine and beer tastings are held.....
In the meantime while i try to learn more, im using my low-end conical grinder to coarse grind the beans and then "finishing" in my low- end hand grinder to get something fine enough for espresso on a medium roast.
Also tried compacting in lifts for all you engineers out there....
Im still holding on to that timemore pledge, i've got 10 days to decide.This was a good preparation video for when watching the review videos of the timemore 78s
I favorite Burr is still Bill!
My only extensive personal experience is the comparison between the italimill stainless steel and the ssp cast lab in my df64p. I liked the stock burrs but had issues with sourness in light roasts. With the cast burrs I have completely eliminated sourness excluding dial in shots. Mt brief experience with a handgrinder isn't fair because I was using sub standard beans at the time, but the shots tended to be thicker (probably more due to robusta % in the beans).
Bold statements. Love it. Helping us with information to make our own informed decisions
Great video! I would like to know if any other physicists in the chat were dying about the centrifugal force part? XD
Not a professional physicist, but I was looking for this comment. Lol
Such a great video! You should have one hundred million subscribers
Nice walk through, however the EK is not just a spice grinder it has always been used for coffee as it could come in both spice and grain configurations. They had them in smaller shops all across northern europe etc. for years before Rao even mentioned it.
Nice vid Lance. Appreciate you always attacking the dogmas
bro i just came for the burr talk and now i'm down the rabbit hole of boethius' conceptualization of eternity
Me after watching this video:
"I need one more grinder for my setup"
Great review! What is the best coffee grinders (in your opinion) that produce the more chocolatey flavour but has absolutely no plastic in the machine at all?
If you have several ones you could recommend even that would be better again since in Australia we don't seem to have the same range sometimes as Americans :)
"Bigger is not better; bigger means more potential".
Love the slurp jingle! Subscribed!
In my relatively brief journey into brewing coffee with higher attention to detail (about one year) I have only used conical hand grinders for espresso and pour overs. I currently use a 1zpresso x pro for pour overs, which I love, but feel like I’m hitting a ceiling for the amount of clarity I can get in a pour over (not even totally sure I would prefer more clarity). I have recently been sifting out about 1g of fines per 16g dose, occasionally, in attempts to dial in towards more clarity. Would this theoretically get more further into the neighborhood of what higher clarity flats can do, or should I maybe just consider initiating myself into the realm of flats? I have been eyeing the ode gen2. Lance, thank you so much for all the help along the way!
hey! I think sifting out fines, especially 1g daily, can get wasteful. But if you are finding you are preferring those cups, do it! You could also try grinding while holding the handgrinder at a 45 degree angle before feeling like you need to shell out more dough for another grinder. This angle will actually slow the feedrate and will cause a different interaction between the beans and the burrs. Give that a try!
@@LanceHedrickWow. Is the 45 degree angle anything you explained before? I am at 5 minute mark, so maybe it is in here. I am not sifting and like the body mouth feel chocolatey profiles, but tend toward 45 angle for handling ease against my body. Inadvertently added a variable to control for!?
@@LanceHedrick thanks again, Lance! Yah I have wondered if this is actually wasteful if after removing fines I can push the extraction of the rest of the coffee further before getting a bitter astringency (I usually grind a bit finer with fines removed). Is it actually wasteful if it produces the same volume cup with the same strength as if no fines were removed? Idk interesting philosophical question tho. I also occasionally add the fines back in after the final pour and do a shallow swirl with a chopstick, so that they can add a little body and flavor, hopefully without giving the cup a bit of a chalky bitter finish (which is what I’ve been attempting to get rid of). will def try the 45 degree angle trick! 📐 thank you so much for following up with your commenters!
@@Ma_Ba absolutely! I experienced this and been only hand grinding coffee for a couple months. In my 1Zpresso J-Max the difference is astonishing. From grinding vertically to 45 degrees or almost horizontal can be as different as getting an espresso in 5 seconds or in like 90 seconds or completely choked. It’s ridiculous. I was shocked that I couldn’t find anyone talking about this online. So glad to finally see an expert mentioning this behaviour, so thanks to you Lance!
@@Kobeder The angling sifts out fines? Makes longer draw downs? Longer pulls?
Thank you for clarifying that bigger does not equal better
I don't have a gourmet taste, so I put off buying a grinder for years. But one day I saw a cheap blender type grinder at Walmart. Wow! What a difference. That one has now broke, so I stepped up to a $59 burr grinder. Even better. I wonder where it is that I would not be able to detect a significant improvement.
I believe that the difference in taste between a conical burr and a flat burr is primarily anecdotal more than anything else. I wonder if there is any empirical data on this.
I havent watched yet, but ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ for using Demythologizing in the title! 🙌🏻
thank you! hope you enjoy when you get around to it!
@@LanceHedrick Loved it. Fantastic!
Damn Lance, you are crushing it with this videos! Got it? No? Ok…..
What I take of all this is what essentially everything boils down in this crazy journey: TASTE; and each individual one is what really matters. No doubt you can have a general idea and some guidance from groups or people like you Lance or Hoffman or Rao, etc, but until you can try for yourself, there’s no way to know for sure. The best someone can do in my opinion is to get it as close as possible, base on personal preference and then adjust/change if need it. At least this is an honest opinion without the push of a particular type of product and that to me is more important. Saludos!!!
Ok, this breakdown was really, really, I mean r e a l l y needed. This spectrum thing with your hands... couldn't anyone else have done it before? I have a feeling that this video - or its essence at least - is going to be discussed for years to come. The like button is not enough in this case. My hat is off...
the best explanation so far - thank you!
I've needed this Video! Thanks a lot!
This is a great breakdown of how the burrs actually function and I think brings some valuable nuance to the discussion of conical vs flat burrs! But now I'm left wondering:
My plan was always to get a decent conical burr grinder and a decent flat burr grinder to have some diversity in the flavor profiles different brew methods can get out of a given bean. I've settled on a Baratza Preciso that I've serviced and cleaned up and swapped some new M2 burrs in for my conical grinder and I was going to try out the Timemore Sculptor 064S as my flat burr grinder. But will they REALLY produce a different enough cup profile to make it worth having both of them?
Ok this has been the best burr lesson of my whole life
Hey Lance! Would you be interested in making a video going into the different coffee regions around the world and what characterizes them? It would be awesome to learn a bit more about different coffees, making it easier to shop in stores and online. It would be perfect as a follow up to "care about the beans, not always the gear"
Sure if you pay his plane fare.
Hey Lance, not sure if you respond to old videos, but I've been using my Chestnut C2 for a while now, probably over a year and am looking to upgrade into an electric grinder.
My budget doesn't allow a Timemore 064S, though that would be my end-game grinder.
My needs are a "do-it-all" grinder around $350.
I have experience with the Fellow Ode gen 1, but it doesn't grind fine enough for espresso, at least in my opinion.
I've heard that you can update the burrs on the Ode to grind finer, so that's an option as well.
I'm starting to think the Baratza ESP is the way to go, but I'm hesitant with the retention and have this idea that a little more money will go a long way in this regard.
Any thoughts or recommendations?
Yay! Awesome video! Good debate to settle
hope it is helpful and not more confusing!
No one can put it clearer than you do! I love it
appreciate you, friend!
I thoroughly enjoyed the learning and the science up until now but it clearly made me bark up the wrong tree by chasing gear. I'm now ready to tune out and enjoy coffee by just exploring different beans. It's easier said than done but I'ma try my best.
yes! that's good. Enjoy what you have and get obsessed over water and cultivating the taste of the coffee in your cubbard
Great stuff! Thanks for the explanation! Great two last videos on actually focus on coffee instead of the gear!
Great video Lance, Nerdy but not deep engineer level. I appreciate you explaining how the burrs work with the different stages of teeth to crush and cut the coffee. I have multiple flat and conical grinders. They all have different taste profiles which fall throughout the spectrum. I agree with you that burr design plays bigger role in taste then just flat vs cone. With the 64mm grinder platform you have huge range of burrs and people can pick the taste profile they want with custom installed burrs.
Hey Lance, this is out of topic but can i suggest a video about trying to make the most out of budget home espresso machine (eg: delonghi) where you upgrade most of the essential parts such as changing the shower screen, using puck screen, upgrading the filter basket, modding it, etc..? I think it'll be interesting to see how it compares to default mid-high end machine when all of its essential parts are upgraded.
I’ve done it. The truly essential changes you need to take a cheap DeLonghi and make great espresso with it: 1. Knowledge of temperature. A cheap digital remote thermometer, place the sensor on the boiler/thermoblock. You’ll know exactly when the heat has gotten to where you want it. 2. A dimmer for flow control. All the other stuff is secondary.
@@Gk2003m Yeah, i would love to see how it compares to other machines. Me personally the upgrades and accessories that are highly effective in improving my shots are dimmer mod and puck screen, especially the newer thinner models not the mesh one. Although i mostly make espresso as a base and not drink it straight, it really helps with the channeling which is my main issue with my cheap machine
This video was perfect timing as I am figuring out my end-game grinders, and I have been reading about burrs and grinders online. Was real happy to see this video and wouldn't mind more of them. This was insightful to me. Thank you very much.
Thanks for explaining the mechanics of griding. Would be interesting to see one or more videos on maintenance and cleaning for both the grinder and espresso machines
Perfect timing for me, a Lagom Mini owner who has backed the Timemore 064S
"I don't know what I'm doing".
- Doesn't matter! Keep going!
I was thinking about this as I was contemplating getting a new grinder for drip/pourover. I'm able to get a lot of clarity from my 1zpresso hand grinder... so I've been thinking it's more related to how the beans are fed through... which seems to be confirmed by your statements here. It's the feed rate and cutting surface area. While I'm happy with my conical burrs, I ended up chosing the Timemore 64 because I like the idea of having multiple interchangeable burrs
Future video concept:
Lance plugs all his grinders in at the same time and runs them all simultaneously for the worlds first grinder symphony......
Lance, my “humble” set up is the old encore, going on 7 or 8 years. Burrs are basically shot.
Should I replace burrs or upgrade my grinder? I’m on a bit of budget, wanting a flat burr grinder, but have been sitting and watching for sometime.
Straight don’t know which angle to take, with pre buyers remorse lol
I have a NZ for 4 years now and just ordered a ND. 3 burr sets should cover most bases😎
I agree conical and flats can't be really grouped in bunches; saying one is like THIS and other is always like THAT. Different grinders and different burrs give different profiles usually. Since I got the Weber Key I've been saying, some conical burrs are more flat-like than others, some flats are more conical-like than others (Flat burred Baratza Vario with ceramic burrs or most Eureka grinders are seeming more 'conical' than Weber HG2 or Key maybe even the 1zPresso K series as well which are all conical burr grinder).
Really great review… at the end of the day try if you like the coffee,it produces 👍 but reviews help you to get your pick right in the first place…. THANK YOU👍😊 I love your style and knowledge a great mix…
Great video Lance! I'd love to see a video on the best grinders for a shots that are more traditional/darker roast/chocolate etc
I've really been wondering about grind size. Like, what would my coffee be like if I didn't care how much I used? I could grind my coffee much more coarsely if I was willing to use more, and the more I was willing to use, the more course it could be, to an extant. This would obviously alter the taste, and I wonder where the sweet spot is for my beans.
Great video as always Lance. I’ve found that I myself couldn’t really tell someone the difference between flat and cone. This video was helpful. I don’t feel as bad now not really knowing.
Good stuff. Would be interesting with a video comparing conical and flat bottomed brewers!
Can you please do a review of the varia vs6 and the conical vs flat burr options
I think this alligns with a lot of things in life. You could make an easy transition to people loving a specific brand of cars without any justification. And even popular brands have shitty cars from time to time.
Some of the bias already comes from the fact that people know a specific grinder (be it conical or flat) and know how it behaves. As soon as they try the same bean on a different grinder, because they want to see if the grass is greener with the other burr type, that they do not know the grinder and therefore are biased to their own experience.
I used both conical (hand and electric) and flat burr grinders and after dialing in they all taste great. But which one is better? I still don't know!! And there probably is no right answer.
Part of this ongoing discussion is fueled by mankind always wanting more, nowadays everybody always wants more (I'm no exception 🙈).
Thank you for making this valuable content Lance!!
Love most of it, and i like everything ;)
this is a very accurate comment. Well put!!!
Whew, was looking forward to this!
hope you enjoy it!
One thing that might be nice for the misophonics is a timestamp in the description for when the slurps are over so they can hop over it without having to guess
Thanks Lance for bringing back the Cone Heads! -SNL
That intro was so slick man! You remind me of the legend Jack Black!
The Jack Black of Coffee.
I see you teasing us with this video, just because the Timemore Sculptor one is coming next 👀
Well, just thinking out loud: what about start messing about portafilter sizes? Like 56 o 60mm? How does that would change espresso? I am thinking of all kind of different espresso and espresso machines.
I understand the 58 is the go to for a all lot bunch of reasons which is not worth explaining here, but, just for the sake of the argument, what about creating a lever machine with a basket of 56mm ? Or what about having light roasted coffee in 60 mm basket compared to 58? how does that is going to affect the taste ?
Where does the option-o lagom mini stand? Especially the moonshine burrs, they are meant for more clarity profiles. How does it stand against flat burrs that are designed for clarity? Is it far away and is quite “chocolaty” or is it more “tea” like. Thanks for answers!
Can you elaborate on why the feed rate into the burrs impacts the amount of fines generated? Does a faster feed rate generate more fines because it causes new beans entering the burrs to have to “wait” for previous beans to exit the burrs and this causing excessive regrinding? Or am I missing the mark?
Making burr education mainstream. Love it!
Burr ninja brings us back to the basics of burr!!
too many questions so had to make sure we know what is smoke blowing and what isnt! Separate the wheat from the chaff!