The Nymphet Femme Fatale (As Popularized by Misreadings of Lolita)
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- Опубліковано 25 лис 2021
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we need to talk about Lolita | Ms. Lola : • we need to talk about ...
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Lionel Trilling Review of "Lolita" ➡️ www.unz.com/print/Encounter-1...
Peter J. Rabinowitz's "Lolita: Solipsized or Sodomized?" ➡️ www.academia.edu/2231530/Loli...
instrumental music (in order of appearance):
"don't tell me more" - jerry lacey
"misty valley" - jerry lacey
"memento" - raymond grouse
"flying ships" - jerry lacey
"lanterns ascending" - jerry lacey
"waltz of the dead" - mike franklyn - Фільми й анімація
The author: “I thought y’all would just inherently know that pedophilia is wrong…. But y’all just hate women enough to validate it.”
LITERALLY
Makes me wanna re-read the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo aka "Men Who Hate Women"
NOOO THIS IS SO TRUE
Reading interviews with the author after I read Lolita (I was trying to work through my difficult relationship and feelings with the book) and it made me realize people lack critical thinking skills because he never set out to write a book where the villain was glorified. It bothered me so much because he's very clearly disgusting.
@@jellogirl2010 He even gives himself the name "Humbert Humbert" because he is disgusted with himself.
I was 16 and I met this man who 12 yrs older. We met in a wedding and I immediately fell for him. I was 16and dramatic. I wasn't subtle about my crush lol. The decent man,shut me down quick. He didn't demean or take advantage. He just calmly said that crushes happen, but till 23, don't crush on anyone who isn't your age because most men will find it as an excuse to abuse it and you. I will never not be thankful to him.
The only appropriate response by an adult to a child expressing a crush on them, I'm glad it was for you was towards a decent human to give you a push in a more appropriate direction. It's not an unusual part of growing up, to have crushes on people older- but it's up to the adult to be in an educator in that scenario and not an abuser.
@@lwcaexii that is definitely cool. But God damn does that speak to a low bar
Yas ❤
That man was a decent human being, I'm glad people like that still exist.
I also feel that parents need to talk to their young daughters and sons about the danger of falling for someone much older than you when you're a minor. I feel that parents don't address this enough, at least not with enough explanation.
IS HE SINGLE?!?!
the quote " just because a girl is ready to imitate a woman doesn't mean she's ready to do what a woman does" is so important and people (mostly men) never acknowledge this
There was this YA novel book I remember reading about a 13-year old fashion model and there's a moment where she's all made up into full glam and makes a pass at the photographer who makes her famous, but he turns her down and says something to the effect of, "You really aren't ready for the way you look right now."
I love Hard Candy. Such a good movie.
@@jeremyud it's weird that I thought the photographer was a saint when these things should really be commonplace
trust me it's not mostly men, there are (stupid) women belive that too, women who do victim blaming and call sl*ts young girls for wering shorts and stuff
Nice Hard Candy pull
I feel like it should be more widely known that Nabokov himself was a survivor of childhood SA at the hands of an uncle, and that there are several moments in the book that mirror experiences he actually had. It's thought that he wrote Lolita in part as a form of self-therapy, but made the child in the story a girl because he thought readers wouldn't believe a story with a boy
Seriously? my God.
Really??? Oh my..
That breaks my heart. That’s terrible
d
that is horrible.
Anyone that believes Dolores is a seductress is telling on themselves.
I've noticed that there are also a lot of teen girls self-identifying as "nymphets" but that is also the result of some form of trauma
@@abookoholic6252 When I was in middle school and high school, I sought for and relished in the attention from men. I feel like when you're assigned female at birth there is a sort of pressure to play the part of a woman so early on. Many of us were raised by television and movies and that's who we saw getting attention and "love." Even though I no longer identify as a woman, I can still feel my impulse to play into that role when interacting with men. It is a habit that makes my skin crawl.
Yep! She was a child
@@martyparty0494 as a lesbian i feel this hard
@@martyparty0494 Uh...enough with this post-modern bullshit. You're a woman.
People like to forget that Nabokov wrote "this is the worst
thing a reader can do, he identifies himself with a character in the book"
YEEES! I ALWAYS say that! I have an edition with Nabokov's notes and preface and EVEN AT THE TIME OF THE RELEASE he had to explain that THIS WAS A CRITIQUE OF THE AMERICAN POP CULTURE, a critique of the MEN of his time! He was a russian man eradicated in the US and he was FLABBERGASTED on how wildly accepted were the advances and relationships of old man with young girls in the USA and how the suburban american way of living was destroying society
@@bgeese1918 no, the book is one of the most beautiful things ever written. it gives a lot of comfort to me, who has survived assault when I was thirteen.
@@anais559 It’s my mistake. I haven’t read the book. I just don’t like that specific quote and with the topic talked about in a general context, that’s why I said what I said, besides about the book. Because like how it’s got to do with the material as much as it does with audience interpretation. However that’s also a broad way of putting it and a jumping off point of how we discuss topics and books like Lolita. But of course for this book, he’s definitely right here. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear
@IntrepidTit sorry, english isn’t my first language, i just meant ‘i disagree’ (in the two languages i’m more comfortable in is saying ‘no’ just a thing you do when disagreeing with someone). the book gets such a bad reputation, which makes me sad because the book can be a great source of comfort to those who experienced sexual assault.
@IntrepidTit but the person i responded to admitted to not having read the book, which i personally believe one should do before judging the book, or Nabokov himself.
Geez the misogyny is so heavy with the critics and readings who called Delores the villain. She was 12. A child.
They're misoginists, I don't think there is much room for integrity in such a viewpoint.
And it shows how they turn a blind eye to men’s horrific actions and crimes.
...I was typing out a different reply to this and I just had the phrase "girls mature faster" come into my mind when trying to comment on those viewpoints.
...Well, that concept just got a whole lot creepier.
it's concerning that the misreading of Lolita is so common that it has led to an entire subculture/trope
Agreed, but I would honestly say it's heavily apart of our mainstream culture.
I read it when I was 12, and I could clearly see Delores was victimized by her stepfather. Humbert was a pedo who was attracted to underage girls before he even met Delores.
@@dionysus9876 I agree. Even without Lolita, the themes from the story have existed since forever.
A quote from one of my favourite Elliot Page movie Hard Candy
" 'Oh, she was so sexy. She was asking for it.' 'She was only technically a girl, she acted like a woman.' It's just so easy to blame a kid, isn't it! Just because a girl knows how to imitate a woman, does NOT mean she's ready to do what a woman does!"
FRRR
That movies nuts
Thank you for reminding me to rewatch Hard Candy, it's been a while.
SUCH an underrated movie. I was utterly obsessed when I was a kid dealing with abuse.
I notice there is almost never an analysis of why the Lolita-type character would actually be that seductive. In real life, this kind of teenager would probably have learned overtly sexual behavior because they were already groomed and abused by someone else, or they are being neglected or abused and learning to sexualize themselves in a misguided attempt to attract some kind of attention from a rescuer. In fiction you often see teenage drug dealers growing up in rough neighborhoods where some adult used them as go-betweens, or learning to be violent because they were beaten at home, or learning to be bullies because of an emotionally abusive parent. But you almost never see Lolitas as victims of abuse. Their sole motivation is that they find the salt-and-pepper sixtysomething old guy sooooo appealing, they just couldn't help themselves. The idea that they aren't virgins ruins their appeal and the idea that they might be trying to attract a rescuer puts the adult back into a position of responsibility.
I think the only film I've seen that acknowledges the roots of nymphet behavior was Leon: the Professional. Matilda sometimes tries to be seductive, but it's always framed as awkward and uncomfortable. You see enough of her past to know that she was parentified and exposed to unhealthy ideas about sexuality. Her behavior is half imitating the adults she's grown up with and half misguided cry for help. Leon understands this but also finds it a little annoying in a way that I think is authentic and healthy. Edit: thanks to this post I have now Learned Things about the director of Leon and.... sigh. This is why we can't have nice things, I guess.
I haven't seen any of the film adaptations, but in the book Humbert definitely grooms Dolores. He becomes obsessed with her, repeatedly gropes her, ingratiates himself with her mother, makes himself a fixture in her life, and when her mother dies basically kidnaps her and makes himself the only adult and caretaker in her life and it's strongly implied that any affection or material joy he offers in her newly unstable and chaotic life on the run is contingent on her sexual obedience.
Edit to add: it's not subtle, it honestly boggles my mind that anyone can read the book and come out thinking Humbert was seduced by this child who, before him, was just living her life.
Praise for Leon in that department, that's new
EXACTLY!!!!! THIS
@@flowerheit4512 Yeah, I was definitely thinking more about the "inspired by misreadings of Lolita" subgenre rather than the original... though to be honest, I haven't read the book or seen any adaptations. I have so many friends who are fans of the original and have explained the plot to me, I wonder if at this point I would get anything out of reading it myself. :-)
You hit the head on the nail.
As for the example, even from such a film, predators ignore the text and intentions and still sexualize 11 year old Natalie Portman. I remember her saying how traumatizing it was to read a rape fantasy from a "fan." And the director was a predator and I find the camera and costume objectify Matilda, especially when the protagonist's relationship was inspired by his and his relationship with his "wife" that was 15 years old. But people could learn a lot from what the film could have done and what it fumbled to do with Matilda's character and how Leon reacted to her advances. It was unintentionally about a hypersexual underage girl trying to gain love and attention after the trauma and neglect she suffered. There is much more opportunities to show how a victim of sexual abuse turns out and suffers from hypersexuality but it is never a story anyone feels worthy of telling when they could just tell one about an underage seductress, unfortunately. :/
it really sucks, as a teenager, having seen both the tumblr era and current tiktok revamping of this nymphet lolita obsession, and knowing there are younger people who may not have the same experiences and see it as a romantic thing. youre allowed to like the style- it's pretty! just the association and way people go about it is kind of despicable. this was a very well done video (as per usual) and i hope we as a society can move past this kind of thing- and stop blaming the young girls for this behavior!!
Yes!! Lana Del Rey definitely popularized the aesthetic too.. i was way too young and naive to realize it's predatory as fuck. Now when I see it on instagram, I am weirded tf out... especially because society already has an obsession with young girls.
I mean, I love Lolita-style dresses. They're so pretty! But I really wish they weren't called that.
@@LunaRyuugamine jsyk! the lolita fashion subculture is entirely unrelated to the book (the name was chosen for being cute, pretty, and european sounding)! in the subculture it is specifically not capitalized to provide distinction! and it evolved isolated in japan for quite some time, so by the time it started being known of in the west, the name was stuck. there have been a few attempts to change the name but ultimately none have been successful, because said attempts were rather small in scale compared to the global fashion
When I use to have wattpad (so like 2 years ago) I saw that there were books literally made by 14/15/16 year olds teaching other girls how to be nymphets 🤢🤢 there was one girl who made a diary about it & was flirting with her science teacher I never went back to see what happened but I hope that girl is ok & that nothing happened. wattpad need to take down those books they’re so dangerous
@@sublimelemon5444 did the people who chose the name know that it was also a book title?
The moment that one of the pruducers of the crush said there is not enough underage nudity it should've been a red flag to everyone who was associated with this movie like wtf, that part really made my skin crawl
You can tell who was and wasn't a nonce in that part.
EDIT: Nonce in the UK where I'm from means child predator so that's just there for people who are American or from other places that don't use that term.
My money's on it was Harvey Weinstein.
Did you know that even Nabokov himself expressed disgust at the misreading of his novel? The quote goes:
"Lolita isn’t a perverse young girl. She’s a poor child who has been debauched and whose senses never stir under the caresses of the foul Humbert Humbert, whom she asks once, ‘How long did [he] think we were going to live in stuffy cabins, doing filthy things together…?’ [...] It is equally interesting to dwell, as journalists say, on the problem of the inept degradation that the character of the nymphet Lolita, whom I invented in 1955, has undergone in the mind of the broad public. Not only has the perversity of this poor child been grotesquely exaggerated, but her physical appearance, her age, everything has been transformed by the illustrations in foreign publications. Girls of eighteen or more, sidewalk kittens, cheap models, or simple long-legged criminals, are baptized 'nymphets' or 'Lolitas' in news stories in magazines in Italy, France, Germany, etc; and the covers of translations, Turkish or Arab, reach the height of ineptitude when they feature a young woman with opulent contours and a blonde mane imagined by boobies who have never read my book. In reality Lolita is a little girl of twelve, whereas Humbert Humbert is a mature man, and it’s the abyss between his age and that of the little girl that produces the vacuum, the vertigo, the seduction of mortal danger. Secondly, it’s the imagination of the sad satyr that makes a magic creature of this little American schoolgirl, as banal and normal in her way as the poet manqué Humbert is in his. Outside the maniacal gaze of Humbert there is no nymphet. Lolita the nymphet exists only through the obsession that destroys Humbert. Herein an essential aspect of a unique book that has been betrayed by a factitious popularity."
This needs to be on top
This isn't disgust at the novel but disgust at people's perception of the novel.
😇 Please Always let the last thought you have please God please forgive me for all the sins and wrongs I've done. 😇
Where is this quote from? I think it perfectly sums up what Nabokov was actually trying to do.
@@onipot9639 late but it was on a french talk show called Apostrophes in 1975
I actually enjoy the new lolita adaption because there are multiple times the movie depicts Delores having a breakdown after a sexual encounter showing that just because she "wanted" the sexual contact she's not ready for it and it damages her immediately. Just because a young girl acts sexual and has sexual desire does not mean she is ready for it or will be unharmed. This is why the adults have to be adults and say no, they are the ones with fully developed brains not the young girls with confusing feelings.
Well said!!
But she didn't "want him" or "seduce" him. He's an unreliable narrator and that's how he perceives it in his sick head. It also says they purposely made the main caracter an attractive man because he might justify himself by saying she finds him attractive but irl he could be ugly.
I think SA or SR often affects kids as they’re older, realizing they were used as an object. Never seen this movie but that still makes sense. It just bothers me that we don’t care about the adults they turn into. We still just focus on the romanticized feelings they have as response to trauma as kids because they’re still an object of desire.
@@GirlDo3 I find this odd. It's completely feasible she had a crush on him, that she was flirting hard with him. Isn't it? I mean, I saw that in school with a young male teacher.
It's still the responsibility of the man to not take advantage, but young girls can definitely have crushes on older men. Maybe it's completely made up by Humbert, but I think that bit is pretty believable.
@@peterwallis4288 I think this is largely a male point of view and a bit of a male phantasy, sorry to disappoint you. Maybe I am misreading your comment because you said ‘older men’, but there is nothing attractive about older men for young women and girls. Most likely this will be fuelled by the feeling of receiving attention that these girls might be lacking at home. I remember distinctly that as a teenager I was looking up to ‘older men’, bc essentially society told me to. But there never was anything sexual to it, it was about being seen and appreciated by someone society told me was superior to me and like their validation mattered. Someone distinguished or accomplished in fields that I myself valued. I also used to believe that I could turn to older men for protection, exactly bc a 40yo teacher is essentially an asexual being in the eyes of a teen. Boy was I wrong, though. That moment when you realise that an older person you respect and admire strictly for their skills or experience is coming on to you is devastating and crushing. Bc you realise they are not your ally, they are just preying on you. And then you end up being so utterly disgusted by a person you tended to idolise.
I’ve seen a few TikToks mention one possible reason why people misread Lolita so much is due to the book covers. Most book covers often sexualize Lolita, some even looking like it was straight out of a erotica. What’s interesting was that the author Nabokov didn’t want any girls being featured on the cover.
No I’m not saying every Lolita book cover is sexualized, some are accurately show the gravity of the situation and the dark tone (one I can point out is the one with the gum and the shoe shown in the video)
I think it’s a fascinating example of how sometimes people do in fact judge a book by its cover
my favorite book cover ever made for lolita is the one with the broken lollipop. i feel like it plainly shows something sweet and child-like that's been smashed and broken. there's nothing cute or romantic about that cover and i feel like it portrays the story better.
The way they frame Dolores as innocent in seduction is what gets me- she's actually innocent. A 14 year old may have a gist of sexual thoughts and behaviors but there is no way to know if they're intentional- it's what another person projects. That's what always gets to me, the disgusting hell of another person's mind that continuously sullies the receiver because of their projection.
I mean it’s normal for kids entering puberty to think of sex. But why does thinking of sex take away their innocence? They are still children.
@@Sinklair8 Exactly!
Plus she most definitely didn't seduce him. It's clear the perception of the girl was through the lense of a sick man. He was meant to be an unreliable narrator. Like I doubt when he met her she was actually reading a magazine under sprinklers.
@@Sinklair8 it's bizarre that people try to deny the s*xuality of children... The point should be, it is THEIRS. It is their private experience. Just because people are "s*xual beings" doesn't mean you're entitled to them s*xually.
@@missquinberlyTHANK YOU. Exactly!!
I’m 25 now but when I was 15 my step father touched me and when I finally opened up about it I was asked what I was wearing to entice him. I did not flirt with him at all and I didn’t show off my body. He came on to me and took advantage of me when I was a child and yet I was till blamed I was also later blamed by the police when I was later assaulted by a guy friend. There was no Me too Movement 10 years ago. Victims were blamed while the predators were victimized. It’s really disturbing how society sexualizes teenagers while making excuses for predators.
even if you had actually flirted with him, it wasn't your fault, I 'm so sorry that happened to you, hope you're better now
I’m so sorry sis. You didn’t do anything wrong, the people in your life failed to protect you. Please consider therapy and continue telling your truth and exposing predators. It’s never too late to get justice.
I'm so sorry those men did that to you and the people around you failed you. You deserved belief and support and justice. I know it doesn't do much to hear this from an Internet stranger, but I hope you're doing ok and being given proper support now. You deserve it. 💚
It happened to me twice, when I was 8 and 12, in both cases I had little to no interaction with the predator. I was unaware of what happened I only knew I was uncomfortable and that situation was wrong. It is later when I was 14 that I became aware of what happened. Then I entered one of the darkest years of my life, I started obsessing with what I wore if it showed my curves (I am overweight) or skin I would refuse to go out because I was uncomfortable with myself. It was later at 16 I started to see the truth that I was the victim now. I am 18 and I found myself
(Sorry for my bad English, hope it helps you)
There's a terrific ten-part podcast by Jamie Loftus called Lolita Podcast that goes *deep* into the history, reception, and legacy of Nabokov's Lolita and it's adaptations + the culture of sexualizing very young teen girls. It's a brilliant series and I highly recommend it, but it's also such a harrowing thing to listen to because it really sheds light upon the scope of the phenomenon, and because it's sadly not something that only exists in the realm of fiction. The trope of the "child seductress who preys on older men" both reflects and affects the way real underage victims of grooming, statutory rape, and sexual assault are often portrayed in media, and it has also brought an onslaught of disgusting sexual attention from older men on the young performers who portray these types of characters in fiction. I do understand that the Lolita subculture holds some appeal to teen girls who are experimenting with their sexual expression, and I wish that we lived in a world that allowed them to play with the aesthetic without exploiting them.
Came here to say this, I loved that podcast
thank you for this recommendation, i’ve been trying to find more research/an in-depth analysis on the book online because i’m a survivor of cptsd and cannot sit through reading the book, myself, and i believed it to be too triggering. i’ve only gotten to the end of episode 1 but i’m enjoying and feeling safe in the experience so far :)
I listened to this podcast and began to realize how the lolita book, other nymphet stories, and LDR indirectly "groomed" me (for lack of a better word)...
I listened to it and learnt so much about the hays code and the laws of Hollywood and the extremely dark undertones of the film versions.
Just commenting to boost this, as this is also what I was going to post.
It's really disappointing that Lolita is such a good book that so many people don't get. Humbert Humbert was never intended to be the "hero" of the story. I don't know how anyone could read it and think "wow that 12 year old really is throwing herself over that poor man." And yet here we are...
cause the book is so well written that makes (stupid) people to feel that way
@@ichimoon4657 unfortunately :(
right ? the book is almost too clever in the way it depicts humbert's instincts and his relationship to lolita. i'm reading it right now and wow, it really gets you thinking. it requires the reader to pay full attention and question everything that's going on. nabokov clearly shows humbert as the drama instigator, but also sometimes pretends to offer an "explanation" and "justification" for his behaviour, for example in a chapter where he says he's not a "violent rapist" but simply wants to "make love to young girls" and he makes the latter sound like a beautiful inspiring thing in comparison to the first (i'm simplifying it but you get the gist). if you don't stop and reflect on those instances, giving it time to truly understand the character's motives, you could mistakenly see it as p*dophilia apology, but it's not !
@@lewlavabra6811 Right?! Like Humbert tells you over a couple hundred pages just how awful he is. And like, even if in some weird bizarro universe where Dolores *actually* was throwing herself at Humbert, he still did everything he did before meeting Dolores, he's still responsible for Dolores' moms death, like he is very clearly a horrible person.
Because most fiction has heroic protagonists in "good vs. evil" plots. "Lolita" seems to be written like a mainstream fiction novel, i. e. a sexy "talking heads" movie with a villain protagonist. People used to story about good guys might mistake any lead character for a hero, regardless of their behavior. The other reason is that some readers may have grown up in cultures with child brides and prostitution.
This video kept making me think about the movie Election... Reese Witherspoon definitely looks like an adult and is much more mature than her classmates, but it's so obvious that she's a child compared to her predatory teacher. Then there's the scene where the teacher is exposed and he's just blubbering about how they're "in love" while everyone else in the room is absolutely disgusted. That's how people ought to react to Humbert. If I were Nabokov and people missed the point of my novel that badly, I'd haunt them.
Also there’s a moment where he’s having sex with his wife but he think of Reese and finally climaxes. Gross
If i remember correctly Nabokov was surprise to say at least about the misreading of Lolita. I can not blame him. His book makes the abuse clear.
this was the movie i was thinking about
@@kingdomcommerce8490 it's confusing at the same time too because Mr.mcAllister hated Tracy flick
Remember “American Beauty” with Kevin Spacey? 🥴🤢😑
it honestly sucks that some people cant just be like "what a weird creepy movie but hey i love the clothes in it" and have to make the movie seem romantic and act as if nothing creepy and ILLEGAL is going on
Exactly. Just like my take on cruel intentions
@IntrepidTit AGREED
This "nymphet" trope genuinely makes me feel ill. Let's put it this way, no matter how young the victim is, a perpetrator will still use the defense, "oh they were asking for it, they wanted it." It makes me sick because I've had two different coworkers tell me about how the abuser of their grandchild said this in court. One of the children was five.
That's disturbing. I used to romanticize this aesthetic when I was younger and didn't know better, creeps me out now.
That is apparently a common thing these monsters say. I have seen somewhere that the author himself was a CSA victim, so it's possible that he had been told that too.
Lolita and the nymphet subculture were (unfortunately) formative to my early teen years, but revisiting it now with fresh eyes as an adult its so disturbing how the story has been twisted to blame her through pop culture and turn her position into something aspirational. I know Humbert isn't real but sometimes it feels like he won bc he has completely eclipsed the vulnerable girl Dolores Haze was with his fantasies in so many people's minds
Same sis,same
Same! I was influenced by this subculture as in my early teen years too but then I saw how older men reacted… I just wanted to run away from their gaze. Just cause a young girl acts like a woman, does not mean she is a woman
I think that, unfortunately, you are right, “he” won. Or, at least the men who think like him, who we allowed to take positions of power in order to produce/create/write/direct the derivative works framing Dolores as the villain, certainly did.
If most people didn’t read the book like wannabe pedophiles (as it happens most of the time), they would realize how absolutely foul it is that Humbert, as the person writing the book, released all of that information after Dolores’ death. She couldn’t defend herself, she probably wouldn’t have wanted people to know the abuse she went through (let alone it being told through the lenses of her abuser), but he still writes it, he still says he’s released it after her death “out of respect”. I don’t trust anyone who has ever read that book, sought out an explanation and still thinks “ah, this man chasing after a 12 year old childhood friend and still lusts after her and seeks her on young children because said childhood friend didn’t put out before she died is a completely fine and trustworthy character, hmmm yes”. The fact that the narrative’s existence on itself can be used to show Humbert’s character is a pretty interesting writing trick imo.
It’s one thing for it to be a fashion style but it’s another for it to be a lifestyle.
I haven’t finished this yet, but when reading the title reminds me of how the media portrayed the grooming 15 year old Aaliyah by R Kelly (in which Aaliyah was 13 when it began). The situation can be seen as a real life example of this trope. I read a very interesting article which I will link below on how, even after the incident is brushed away, for years it’s dismissed as Aaliyah simply having an ‘allure’ which made so many men attracted to her. Despite her only being a child for most of her career. On the darker end of the spectrum, grown adults outright called her ‘fast’ for being a victim - which doesn’t make sense because her nickname was ‘Babygirl’. She was always known to be young.
As a whole, the article came to my head as soon as I saw this video because it straight out said that the image of a lolita was put on Aaliyah at the beginning of her career. All down to the her break out song ‘Age ain’t nothing but a number’ written by her groomer.
Not to forget that the R&B genre as a whole had not only Aaliyah, but other celebrities such as Monica and Usher singing love songs geared to adult topics at such a young age.
Aaliyah was a gorgeous girl, but a child who was failed by the adults around her and demonised in the media for it. I’m glad there’s a video about this putting this into words. This trope isn’t just in media, but in real life. It’s in the language we talk about notorious victims of grooming.
I just would like to note that this media reflects real life. You’ve probably said this in the video, and it’s true. Society hasn’t begun to view young groomed girls as victims until recently. This trope in media is just another way that victim blaming has manifested.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/22621692/aaliyah-death-20-year-anniversary-r-kelly-trial
Well said!
Let’s also not forget how a young 17 year old Monica was dating C Murder a grown ass man with a whole kid 🙄 stuff like that makes me sick
@@ladylatrelle4240 "dating"
To be honest, too many Black girls were and are still adultified. Lil' Mama was villified harsher than Kanye when she took to the stage during Jay-Z and Alicia Keys's performance in 2009. People asked "Is she drunk" and they blacklisted her and blackballed her in hollywood. Alicia Keys wouldn't forgive her. But did anyone think to themselves, "Oh, she's a teenager. A KID".
If they'd been Taylor Swift or Billie Eilish, people would say she's just a kid.
Her family also had a responsibility in parts of her grooming. Even before meeting Kelly. They were marketing her as ""sexy" when She was barely 11.
Ghastly!
A couple months ago I saw someone on tiktok call Lolita a "female manipulator" movie and I have truly not known peace since
I've seen a lot of recent LMN movies where the roles are reversed and the teenage boys are unhinged assaulters in older women lives, the fascination with making movies about children being the sexual aggressors toward adults is so weird to me
But even then, when a teenage boy is written like that, he's just a boy who failed to control his "innate carnal urges," as if it's just a thing that all males feel, and have to reign in, while a teenage girl in these situations is a s**t and a w***e.
The societal standard is that men are uniquely sexual beings, whereas a woman who feels or seeks sexual pleasure is deviant. And that gets projected onto literal children
Omg..i was thinking that as well. Not necessarily lifetime, but just the teenage boy movies like the JLo one called Boy Next Door and they are written by women. I swear they are the same predator narratives these male directors and writers. We need to remember this type of shit happens to boys too and it's underreported, just like girls. So sad...there are more predators than we'd like to admit for real.
Pedophilia is way too common. In society in general but especially in film I've noticed.
@@theavantribe Fifty Shades has Christian's virginity lost by his mother's friend when he's a teenager. The film is directed by Sam Taylor-Johnson, who is said to have groomed Aaron Taylor-Johnson her later husband when she was his manager or something...at 17. Creepy. Female directors definitely do it too, but I agree the optics are a bit different.
There are adult women forced into sexual submission/raped by minor boys tho it is not anywhere near what is being done with the lolita narrative.
People often gloss over the fact that in the book she's _12_
It doesn't matter if a girl is being flirtatious or not, no one over the age of 12 should find a 12 year old attractive. If they do, they have some serious issues they need to work through.
The guys who think Delores is flirting, are basically Joe from ‘You’. Child: makes macaroni Necklace and farts. Humbert humbert: Is she, flirting with me?
That is the adaptation this book needs. Combine it with You
People defend Joe in the same way unfortunately. So many people buy into his delusional self justifications. Its gross
Totally agree with all this, but I just wanted to make sure people know that Japanese Lolita fashion and nymphet/"lolita" fashion inspired by the book and movie adaptations of the book are not the same thing. It's tragic how a fashion that came from the idea that women don't have to dress sexually when they're adults if they don't want to (and can keep dressing "cute" instead) got conflated with a fashion and aesthetic romanticizing the idea of a child seductress. (disclaimer: I don't care what consenting adults do with each other in the privacy of their own relationship. But a lot of tumblr "nymphet" culture has teenagers in there and that's scary)
I can understand the misinterpretation tbh, but EGL definitely doesn't have the same connotations and embraces almost the opposite of the misreading of lolita. It's about embracing almost childish things because of the nature of being rushed into the Japanese workplace that pushes people to suicide. Also, there's more mature substyles like gothic and classic. Saying someone likes cute things is victimizing themselves is exactly the misinterpretation.
I really wish Japanese people would call the EGL fashion scene something else.
@@RemiAutor Why? Lolita has been a girl's name wayyy before the books publishing.
@@RemiAutor there are actually plenty of good reasons to keep the name as is and not be ashamed of it! One of them is to reclaim the name Lolita. Im a lolita and ive been looked at strangely by a cashier once bc of the name. Well, it uncomfortable but the conversation keeps popping up in these contexts and its good to educate people on the very feminist and desexualizing ideas of the japanese streetfashion. Anyone uncomfortable with it can keep calling it EGL but idk… honestly, people sexualize it anyway, even if it were called something else. People dressing differently always has someone think its sexual. Like i was wearing lolita, completely covered top to bottom and a woman said its „half erotic half maid outfit“ like it was a compliment. The book is actually not even that widely known where i live so the name doesnt even do it for most. So Id rather have lolitas stand their ground on this name bc honestly its a very cute name and it shouldnt be tainted by pedos to the point of it being a dirty word :-)
@@F66x that’s basically the exact same thing as the person in the original comment was saying, why do you say it as if you’re opposing their view?
There's a modern book called My Dark Vanessa where a teacher grooms a schoolgirl (this includes giving her a copy of Lolita, which he knows she will misinterpret as being about forbidden romance). The book is very clear in communicating the fact that the whole situation is not romantic but abusive and has a disastrous effect on Vanessa's life. And yet I *still* saw people claiming that the relationship between an adult man and a groomed 15 year old was consensual and that he never assaulted her (he did). Seeing this was as shocking to me as it was disgusting.
I remember being 14 and romanticizing Lolita because I liked the idea of being with someone older then me. That same year, I got into a relationship and lost my virginity to someone 8 years older then me. After that relationship, I continued to talk to men older then me. Now, five years later (as a fresh adult), I have a really hard time getting over it. My psychiatrist diagnosed me with trauma. I've had a hard time not blaming myself because I thought being in a relationship with a older man was what I wanted and I sometimes relive old feelings ( not because I'm still attracted to older men but because I once had feelings for a specific man)
I don't want anyone to feel the way I feel and it makes me sick to see Lolita so commonly misinterpreted , especially since Lolita is 22nd most sold book (in the last decade, according to Wikipedia). No youngster should be blamed for a relationship, which endangers them. Please stay safe and respect your own boundaries.
Where were your parents in all of this? This is seriously disturbing just reading this.
It will never be your fault, you were crying out for help, I'm sure if a young person tried to do what you did then you'd try to get them help not take advantage of their naivete. It's on the adult to draw the line because kids just don't know any better even with all the voices around them telling them that it's not okay. They don't know, you didn't know. You were the oldest you had ever been and looking back on your life at that time you felt mature and ready and it will never be your fault that someone took advantage of that. From one survivor to another, it wasn't your fault. You didn't "open a door" to it happening someone sick took advantage of you growing and in puberty and full of hormones. It isn't your fault it's theirs and theirs alone, they had the power to help you and instead they took advantage.
@@aao2780 Both my parents work and they wouldn't assume much. When I asked to get help, they got me help but I choose to keep things confidential. I'm not out to my parents, so I don't want them to know that I was talking to men.
@@Maker_Az_Is thank you, this means so much and I appreciate what you have to say. dating up will never be the same as dating down.
Hi there, I’m so sorry you went through that. I had a very similar experience. I thought I was in control and it was what I wanted, but after growing up I realised I was being taken advantage of by a loser who was too creepy for his own age bracket. I can relate to the conflicting feelings, however. Even now I still try to tell myself that I knew what I was doing, but I could never see myself thinking that about a teen going through the same thing- I’d tell them to run, fast.
As for the “where were your parents” argument I saw, that often has nothing to do with it. I kept everything a secret. I had wonderful, involved, responsible parents but I really thought I was being “an adult” and could handle myself as such. I was a teen, I had no idea the ramifications or the lasting effect it would have on me as an adult.
I hope you find some extra support and peace… it was never your fault x
when i was a teenage girl, old men always tried to talk to me, when i grew a few years older, for the most part they stopped, and it’s disgusting to think about
The most horrifying aspect of these situations in real life are the jealous mothers. There are women that will blame their own daughters for "baiting" their boyfriends and/or husbands (sometimes it can even be the girl's bioloical father) and being abused/molested "as a result". There's nothing quite so chilling as the icy cold hatred of an aged woman to a growing one.
This was partially explored in "Lolita".
I've been there. It's a horrifying experience to see your mother break down crying and hear her angrily accuse you of stealing her man. At the age of thirteen. And then go on to see her marry him after you already told her several times what he did.
@@NekoChanSenpai Let me give you the biggest of hugs and say: None of this is your fault. I hope you got away from them - as far as possible.
@@user-nu5nv1yg5r thanks friend. I am far away now, I'm in another state and I've cut off all contact. I'm in therapy now and it's helping but I still have bad days
@@NekoChanSenpaiI'm sorry Please Always let the last thought you have please God please forgive me for all the sins and wrongs I've done. 😇
@@NekoChanSenpaithis is very common amount mothers and I think women are just as bad when it comes to pedophilia as men not this younger generation of gen z but the past generations even millennials have this sexual view of minors even when I was very young and not doing anything wrong it was this extreme hatred for me and all of this telling me what I would end up as trash just because my past as being abused me at home people could mell that fear on me and used it to exploit me and abuse me until I eventually and still to this day am a recluse. I don't want to have sex with tons of people or be physically abused or bullied or hated or steal or hate or so wrong things. I don't want to own it and say this is what the world this world has given me and accept it I want to be a good and happy person despite this and learn how to function without worrying of how people see or treat me just like you.
“Both the directors of The Crush and Poison Ivy have said that these stories were based on things that happened to them in real life”
I’m sorry what 😀
They so often tell on themselves
So why they no in jail now?
@@hiddenechoes Hm, well sometimes, people who are documented doing horrible things are not punished for it. Statue of Limitations, no investment into prevention and care for young people. As Yhara does in this video, there are many who fight against and criticize the (hyper)sexualization of young people . But that fight happens because hypersexuality imposed on young people is so popularized, so accepted, and even monetized.
Leaving a comment for the algorithm! It's incredibly disheartening that so many ppl have misinterpreted Lolita as some "cutesy age gap couple goals aesthetic." 😭
It's also very interesting how Dolores is always portrayed as very feminine in pop culture when in the book she is quite tomboyish
There's a book called MY DARK VANESSA written by Kate Elizabeth Russell and beautifully retells and readapts the story of Lolita from the perspective of the young girla nd the woman she grew up to become. It's beautifully written, and it's so sad. People who have previously misread Lolita should definitely read that book.
I loveee how you brought up the "The Crush". I watched it a while back and it gave me Lolita Vibes. This video was soo well done! My dad walked in and said that "American Beauty" is also a movie that fits the theme of the video.
Your dad sounds chill
@@Gloomdrake He is😂🙌🏾 I lovee him so much🥺❤
@Ash Valentine I agree with your dad. AB has not aged well at all, though it was the “it”-movie when it came out. It’s very sympathetic toward irresponsible out-of-shape older men in bad marriages with crappy jobs who coincidentally fall in love with their teenage daughter’s friend 🙄
American Beauty is partly based on Lolita actually. Kevin Spacey's character Lester Burnham is an anagram for Humbert Learns, and Mena Suvari's character is named Angela Hayes (Lolita is Dolores Haze).
@IntrepidTit Nope
Most abusers don't see what they're doing as abuse -- at least in my experience. They'll do any sort of mental gymnastics to save their own egos.
Yeah... Man tries to kill my sister, says hi to me at public gatherings like... ?
I agree with everything in regards to how misreading Lolita creates these excuses for creeps to get away with behaviors that are deeply disturbing and traumatizing for anyone on the receiving end of their attention.
Lolita the fashion substyle (characterized by the big poofy skirts and Victorian-esq design) I will defend as not meaning to perpetuate the nymphette stereotype/viewpoint. It’s instead used to remove the sexualization of someone else’s gaze by controlling where they look. Pushing it away from the chest, thighs, etc, moving it towards the shoes, the gloves or fancy sleeves, big head bows, ect. It’s deliberately a style that is overtly feminine, fancy, yet rejects the sexualization that clothes with those descriptors in mainstay fashion have. It was also created in Japan where the word “Lolita” was not connected to a controversial book in another language, but was simply thought to be a cuter/more easily pronounced version of the name Dolores, which fit the aesthetic of what the clothes were riffing off of.
I was having a discussion with my mom the other day about lolita fashion and how she feels it's sexualizing little girls or pandering to men who are attracted to girls. I showed her your comment and she loved it! Now she's doing more research. Just goes to show that the manifestations of liberation and feminism are deeply dependent on cultural context.
The concept of a "seductress" is ridiculous to begin with, as it removes male agency from the story where in reality they have full agency. The woman "seduced" the man by what....acting sexy? The man can choose whether or not they want to interact with a "seductress." It's used to absolve men from any wrongdoings such as rape, cheating, spending money they don't have, etc.
The idea of a "child seductress" is doubly absurd, as children have significantly less agency in their own lives, even less so over an adult's. "You see your honor, the child MADE me do it."
2 mins in. I wanna finish it later. this is something I've wanted to speak out on for a while and how this evolved our society. I appreciate the analysis so far.
Did you come back and finish it?
@@shizzlemywizzle1 Yes, I did. It's a fantastic video essay that I hope springboards into deeper discussions about r*pe culture. I hope that we can use this analysis, understanding how popular media has shifted our culture to believe the victim of predatory behavior are the villains, to further critique other media that do the same thing........ like mainstream porn. o.0
I appreciate this video for that reason and I hope the dialogue doesn't stop. Hubert was the villain even if he was the narrator.
@@AnarchistCatGrrl as Thug Notes says in their video on Lolita "Once you start believing Humber Humbert, then he has you by the balls"
I find it disturbing that teens were actually cast in these movies instead of adult actresses that just looked younger
But, always an actress older than the character, because it's harder to fool ourselves into believing the predator's narrative when the 12 year old looks 12, and forgive ourselves for sexualizing her in our gaze and being complicit in what we are watching. In real life, they always want to describe the victim as physically and psychologically "mature for her age". Even Angelica Houston, making apologetic excuses for Roman Polanski's rape of Samantha Geimer, claimed she acted very tough and street smart and "looked 25". I saw a picture of 13 year old Geimer and she looked like the child she was, and if a child trying to impress adults was able to make them think she was their peer, then they must have been EXTREMELY immature.
As is usual with videos about Lolita, I can’t watch this because I’ll lose my sh*t from the flashbacks (which include physical memories stored in my spinal cord), but I’m always so grateful when people talk about this. It really really messes people up for life. I couldn’t understand growing up why so many adult men tried to create a deep emotional connection with me. They thought I was special and they wanted to be special to me. I thought I was inherently sexual, an “evil temptress”, and I hated me so much.
I hope you have learned to love yourself again.
An excellent video essay. Makes me shutter. I had been an "early bloomer" physically myself and had grown men hit on me as young as 11 and all through my teens. I'd tell them my age and often they'd scoff at me in anger as if it was "my own fault" for having breasts as a child, like I purposely grew them to enticed and tempt adults. A couple times I even had men tell me things to the extent of "it didn't matter" but by that point I had already had CSA as a kid so I knew to keep wise to those situations and try to get out of it as fast as I can. It's a horrible world of victim blaming. In some counties of the world they go as far as mutilating girls bodies because it is seen as a necessity evil to protect them from the advances of men. Some mothers would iron the breasts of their preteen daughters, physically and mentally scarring their children forever in order to "protect them". Thank you for discussing this important issue. It is never talked about enough and we do need to make a change as a society. Hopefully someday. I'm 26 now but the anxiety of when those experiences were happening still lingers.
It sucks that teens see the nymphet aesthetic as aspirational. They come to believe that being lusted over gives them power over adults, but it doesn't. It just traps them.
You're right to identify the problem with these movies as the lack of moral agency by the older men. This is a problem for all kinds of reasons, but one important reason is that it helps to convince male viewers that THEY are not responsible for how they deal with their desires. What it means for men who have been conditioned by this kind of storytelling is that when they see a "sexy" girl, they will have learned to disbelieve what the girl says, and to assume she's being coy or deliberately manipulative; they think her "no" means "yes". They think their arousal is a sign of her actual maturity. They replace her humanity with this image of the nymphet from the movies. This makes it much easier for them to do things they would otherwise know they should not do.
Because art shapes morals.
By the way, I found the quotes from Lionel Trilling and Richard Schickel especially disturbing; they were extremely well-known critics, men whose names were known by everyone with the slightest pretensions of intellectual awareness. This means the misunderstandings of Lolita came straight from the top, as it were. This is genuinely shocking.
"Art shapes morals", thank you so much for saying this, more people need to hear it.
I stumbled upon a book in the thrift store that gave the same vibe as Lolita that was actually written before it. Japanese author Jun'ichirō Tanizaki wrote ‘Naomi’ aka ‘A Fool’s Love’ in 1924. The main character, Jōji is like 28 or 29 and becomes infatuated with a much younger teenage girl named Naomi who has a very Eurasian look, as he puts it. His savior creeper complex makes him want to take her in and mold (groom) her into the woman he wants. This eventually blows up in his face as she doesn’t come out to be his dream girl and the power dynamic changes. Never read Lotita but I’d like to for a comparison.
as someone who has been sexualized since I was eleven and assaulted when i was thirteen, i find comfort in the nymphet aesthetic, because it gives me the opportunity to take back power that was stolen from me. the book is also beautifully written and is very comforting to me as a survivor. but it horrifies me to see young girls romanticizing the book, without understanding that Dolores' relationship with Humbert is very messed up.
I’m so sorry for what you went through love; I hope time has helped with the healing process, and I 100% agree with you. A little different, but I’ve noticed how early on young girls are subject to catcalls and sexual comments from older men at such an early age; it makes my skin crawl and I remember when it first happened to me, instead of blaming the perpetrators I had the mindset that I was the one that needed to change and wear less showy clothes. It’s awful that girls are portrayed sexually in any circumstance.
@@kiana6065 thank you 💗 you’re right, something needs to change. this happens so much to young girls, i barely know a girl/woman who hasn’t been verbally/physically harassed in a sexual way. it’s horrible.
How can that give aesthetic give you power or comfort?
@@SG-pu3rx I’m not the one who posted it but many people with trauma find comfort this aesthetics like that because they are choosing to follow that aesthetic. It’s their decision rather than something that was forced upon them like their trauma was. That’s how power is taken back from the abuser.
@@vinnyoz4709 I dont get that though, isnt it just a sexualized version of kid things? You can incorporate things from your childhood in an innocent way but if youre doing that from a sexual lense towards your child self isnt that just perpetuating your own trauma to a level that could effect others? Unless we're talking about the japanese lolita then I get it
I saw an interview about that cupboard scene in the Crush - apparently the original cut was less explicit, but the executive producers screamed at them for not showing breasts. They explained that they couldn’t because their actress was underage but the execs didn’t care and insisted on nudity. The use of a body double’s butt was the compromise they had to make.
This video makes me think of The Professional and how, after it came out, a then 13 year old Natalie Portman was subjected to constant sexualization and harassment, including from well known public figures and talk show hosts.
I read Lolita and it was so gross since everything was from the perspective of the narrator and you can see how destroyed the girl is even through his eyes. She's scared and he's the only "family" she has left. She's resistant to his "advances", she becomes withdrawn at school and doesn't even do things she likes to do like act in the play. She ends up running away and being a mother at 17 or so 😔
I was one of the nymphets on tumblr. A lot of us were girls, teens, or young women who were sexual abuse victims, grooming victims, or had 'daddy issues'. A lot of us were looking for father figure or were trying to be more comfortable with our own trauma.
A lot of it was via aesthetic, because the 90's Lolita movie is very aesthetic. It made us feel better. Lana Del Rey was popular because of her dramatic lyrics and emphasis on daddy issues and relationship issues as well as having that nymphet aesthetic.
Also, the nymphets on tumblr were VERY anti pedo. Like, mass reporting creeps, because we did attract a lot of creeps. Its true there were a few fetish blogs in the nymphet community but we tried to excise them.
sadly i have seen a few to many "i just need a 40+ year old man" / "smoking a blunt with a 40 year old man feeling like lana rn" posts to be able to confidently believe you
nah there's some that are representing the community badly
There’s nothing wrong with the fashion aesthetic. But when they talk about wanting older men that’s where the line is crossed.
It's been a while since I read Lolita, but if I remember right, there's a passage near the end where Humbert recognizes that Dolores is damaged and failing to realize her potential because of what he's done to her. Makes me wonder how many people who misinterpret it never finished it.
I read Lolita when I was 14 and I was shook because I’d only ever seen the romanticised tumblr bits and pieces before. I couldn’t believe people sympathised with Humbert in any way. He’s obviously effed in the head, and I just came out of it feeling so bad for Dolores and her mom.
"Just because a girl is ready to imitate a woman doesn't mean she's ready to do what a woman does." - Ellen Page as Hayley in Hard Candy.
An absoloutely brilliant film too, I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't watched it yet.
*Elliot.
Elliot Page*
*Elliot
One of the more ironic things about mysogyny is that the more control the men have over women, the more affraid they are of them. Is almost like those predators are so afraid of the vulnerability required for having sex than the fear will persist no matter who much invalanced towards their favor they made the power dynamic to be, to the point of being afraid that abusing _a freaking literal child_ will give _the child_ to much power over them
From the teenage girl perspective I think these films and tropes are so popular with them of course because of the culture they’re raised in but also in a desperate, unconscious attempt to retain agency when they’ve just reached the age to crave some out of their own. And to maintain that agency when it was taken from them by these men
It’s weird how Humbert is portrayed as more of a hapless child than the ACTUAL 12 year old girl. They really hate women
I'm surprised you didn't mention Hard Candy (2005). It is a thoughtful subversion of the "teenager + adult erotic thriller" trope, with the villain trying to excuse his abuse with the reasoning you layed out, but Elliot Page acts as the unheard voice of those targeted by child predators (not my best description, but it's really good)
100% agree, really enjoyed that one when i saw it as a minor
When I was 9, my teacher publicly called me out for 'dressing like a teenager' and 'trying to grow up to fast.' The adults around me never thought to ask why I wanted to look that way and why they were sexualizing a LITERAL child. I'm so glad things are (kind of) better now for young people
So why did you want to look that way?
@@TycoNewRC Why do you think?
@@indecentxcomposer I can't relate. I'm not a girl/woman. Were you encouraged to try looking that way, by an abuser?
It doesn’t make any sense to blame a child for this stuff. At 9 a lot of kids aren’t getting to even pick their clothes.
For as often as Hollywood casts people in their mid 20s to play teenagers, it is striking to me that these nymphet movies cast real under age girls not to emphasize the creepiness but to explicitly sexualize and blame them for it.
One thing I appreciated about American Beauty is that it subverts the trope by showing that the teenage girl is just an insecure child who tries to hide that by appearing sexually confident and that the adult really should have realized that from the beginning.
Tbh I think there's got to be a way to create an online community that has a discussion about liking the book Lolita without romanticizing Dolores' abuse. Lolita is a hypersexualized archetype of Dolores Humbert conjured up to justify the idea that his abuse was ok, and that Dolores consented.
Nabokov himself didn't even want girls on the cover, which was to prevent Dolores being sexualized. I think the issue is people feeling the need to cling to the idea that every single book needs a movie/aesthetic when Lolita is pure proof not every aspect of literature needs it. But I also hate people simple mindedly clamoring onto the idea that if you like the book, suddenly you support Humbert's actions.
What gets me about movies like Poison Ivy and The Crush is that those characters could have easily been aged up. There was no real need to make them that young.
Reading Lolita was life changing for my outlook on my own sexuality. I saw so much of myself in Delores and this narrative that makes people assume Lolita is fantasy and fetishizing p*dophilia frustrate me so much. Thank you for the insightful video because I hadn't put the two and two together.
Its interesting how sexualizing underage women is apart of our culture to the point when someone writes a direct criticism of that mindset, everyone thinks the victim is the villian even those against it.
I read Lolita when I was really stupid and thought Dolores was the issue UNTIL I read the last chapter when I realized Nabokov was a genius and Humbert was a moron. It scares me that adults still believe that Dolores is the villain when she was literally traumatized her entire childhood.
Uhmmm as a 30 year old woman. Anyone under 25 looks 12. 15 year olds look like the children they are
i would just like to mention that ive done lots of videos covering this topic from the perspective of someone who was in the first iteration of the nymphet community and also i was featured in the wonderful lolita podcast by jaime loftus and it kinda pains me how no one uses these resources when talking about this topic bc the perspective of those who were impacted and engaged with this content on a deeply personal level is extremely important
Thank you for recommending your work. Going to watch tomorrow
Love your work girl, it’s very lazy research on their part
I love this video, I think people always forget that Lolita ( the text) is a literal practice of grooming - as in - the text grooms the reader, it, like an abuser, coerces the reader, it warps your judgement and uses you. Humbert, even as a narrator grooms you (the reader), to see his world view, in which a 12 year old whose mother he murders, and whom he kidnaps and abuses, was always trying to tempt him. He tells you from the beginning he is a murderer, at the end of the text, he kills himself after seeing what he has done to Lolita ( although this could also be to escape the punishment). Nabokov is always trying to show us the reality behind the fabricated fantasy. There are lines that reference her crying out or clearly not-consenting. But Humbert gracefully narrates around these moments of reality. Nabokov was a bit of an obsessive when it came to language, he wanted us to realise how powerful language is, how easily we are lulled by beautiful words. "you can always count on a murderer for a fancy prose style"
Nabokov never wanted a girl on the cover, many people suggest he didn't even want to publish the book.
Yet, the legacy of what he created is really fucked up.....what was a narrative experiment of how language and narrative grooms us to accept awful realities, just became a vehicle for justifying awful realities...
Humbert didn't murder her mom, she was hit by a car. He was responsible for her being upset when she died.
ive been trying to formulate some thoughts on the underlying pedophilia in pop culture media and how it reflects our practices at large and this is one of the ways that it perpetuates! so often, western beauty standards infantalize women and our bodies
That's not a western beauty standard. That's an American one. No French man would choose a 16 year old over a 36 year old.
there's a podcast miniseries called 'lolita podcast' that i can't recommend enough if you enjoyed this video. very well researched, multifaceted and thorough - seriously it's really really good.
Crazy how now that I'm older I agreed with everything you said. When I first watched Lolita I was 14😂 and genuinely thought the movie was about a child seducing a grown man and how she left and got pregnant with her current boyfriend years later😭 But, boy was I wrong😭🤚🏾
These "nymphet" tropes came out of a time when a girl didn't have many prospects. Many young women married in or right outside of high school. Prom was actually considered a way for girls to find marriage partners because they weren't expected to actually use the information they learned in school. It eventually flourished into this weird infatuation with teenage girls.
People also died far younger. If you were 50 you had led a good long life. Remember WWI and WWII made young people grow up far faster - the modern day idea of a childhood and teenage years and even people in their 20's not being "adult" is a Gen X creation.
is it just me or anyone else think its weird that in troupes like this the “villainess teenage girl” tends to accuses the older guy of sexual assault. like ???
Do you mean why don’t people see it as s.a. if the accusation is there, or that obviously they’re not a villainess, or that an accusation of s.a. is the height of villainy, or something else?
@@Fincayra15 i think they mean is weird that they want to frame the girl as a villain, and one of the things they use to make her the villain is make her accuse the man of S.A, which in the context of the movie and how the girl is framed as evil, is put as her lying and trying to ruin the " poor man" life with that accusation. Which says a lot about the team who wrote that tbh
What do you mean "tend to"? I've only ever seen ONE example of an evil nymphet accusing the man of rape, and even then it was because she had *_fabricated_* physical evidence inside herself. It was supposed to show her cunning/cleverness. How is that "weird"?
It's so unfortunate Alicia and Drew both had roles as minors where they were paired up with men well into their adulthood. It's gross and feels so weird to watch. Don't look at the comments for these clips on UA-cam either....full of creeps.
I read this book in high school for a choose-your-own book report. I remember being so frustrated by reviews that sympathized with Humbert because the book literally opens with a letter about how you shouldn't trust his version of events
"she's was after him" SHE WAS ALSO 12?!?
and like.... the whole thing was that im pretty sure in the book dolores wasn't even especially ~aesthetic~ she just looked like a regular girl of her age. once again people forget it does not matter what you were wearing.
I was 16- HE WAS 30, I was 16- HE WAS 21. I was 33 when i learned how wrong it was.
People are sick
Literally this happened to me..... I was being gas lighted and abused and literally adults were saying i was bad for freaking out through all of this.
I watched the crush when I was 15 and couldn't finish it cause it was so upsetting to watch as a young girl
Why exactly was that movie upsetting for YOU to watch?
@@TycoNewRC because it's disturbing for some teenage girls to see a girl around your age portrayed in that way???
FINALLY A VIDEO ABOUT GODFORSAKEN POISON IVY. I watched it when i was like, what, 15? I was looking for films with girls with crushes on their girl friends and someone suggested it to me along with "American beauty". Let me tell you, I was very disturbed by these movies due to this underlining message that you discussed in your video. It really messes with your head especially when you're a young girl
Good men do not need the naivety of children to find a partner. Keep in mind young ladies. I was in your shoes. It was horrible. If anyone stepped in at the time my life wouldn't have gone so badly. It is not worth the temporary feelings of affection. You deserve real love not this fake predatorial crap.
I’m so glad you made this video, I’m reading the book and I’m like, this man is SO clearly a disturbed individuals. He was never meant to be some innocent victim, he victimizes himself to excuse his behavior and blames the 12 year old Lolita and society was like yeah dude, it’s her fault, wtf?
Oh god, I never read lolita because in my humble opinion I don't want to traumatize myself wit its plot but jesus christ all those critics should've been sent to therapy the second they said something like that. Disgusting.
I remember watching Lolita when I was like 14 and obsessed with Lana Del Rey lol and being absolutely confused by it??? Like even at 14 I could not understand why ppl liked the aesthetic let alone the movie!! I just felt so bad for Dolores the entire time and I was sick by the time I finished watching it... They need to remake Lolita only to give the men some consequences
From my own experience as a dude, I had a female cousin who is 6 years younger than me. When she turned 12 (I was 18) she started to get super clingy around me and would always smile and stuff like, "I really like you" to me and just run away and giggle. This made me feel super awkward and so one day I told her exactly how I felt, and that I was bothered by how she was acting around me. She was smart enough to understand what I meant and she stopped.
I don't think I was ever mad or angry at her for feeling like that because I could kinda understand what she was feeling because I myself was 12/13 once I would crush on older women all the time.
Honestly… this trope lives on in wattpad
I think would be interesting to see a stage version of "Lolita" from the perspective of the psychologist in the introduction, but they're played by a different person each night. That way, the events are further contextualised by their own baggage.
The fact that people even make humbert the victim and the fact they acknowledge Deloris is child like but still say she is the one manipulating is very alarming and ties into how people will still blame the victim even if it’s a child for being sexually assaulted.
I think people are misconstruing the comment at 3:18 - Yes, the Japanese fashion subculture has NOTHING to do with nymphet aesthetics. But I think Yhara used it in relation to Nabokov’s actual Lolita (for example, those “Lolita inspired” mood boards on tumblr or on tiktok, inspired by the actual fictional character as opposed to the fashion subculture.) I don’t believe she was placing the actual blame on the Japanese Lolita community.
Yeah she was referring to the fashion and aesthetic of this particular character.
Although it does make me wonder why the Japanese subculture chose the name Lolita if they didn't want the association? This book was written in the 50s, well before the subculture existed.
@@LivyRivy there is a UA-cam video that explains this called "why is lolita called lolita" by deerstalker pictures 2
Humbert: literally drugs a child for untoward purposes
Critics: "that man is the real victim here"
Bruh
The two movies you mentioned are both from the 90s, which is when the second adaptation of Lolita was made too. This was an unfortunate side effect of the AIDS epidemic, where the reality that straight women and gay men were more affected by the disease meant that women HAD to become more sexual out of necessity. All the crop tops, bare midriffs and skimpy fashions were essentially coding themselves as dangerous or outspoken, signifying that if sex was going to happen, it would be done consensually and safely on the woman's terms, or else it wouldn't happen at all (songs such as the Spice Girls "Wannabe" and Christina Aguilera's "Genie in a Bottle" reflect this). And in the 90s they had to be educating 11-year-olds about condom use (note the scene in Poison Ivy where the girls have to buy a condom as part of their homework) because "you had to get to them before some guy did". As a result, there was this generation of teenagers who knew the facts and that unfortunately led to a culture where fifteen was treated as 'basically an adult'. Hell, there was a British tabloid called the Daily Sport that would even post countdowns to a model's sixteenth birthday, after which they'd be able to legally pose topless. I think there were still some holdovers in the 2000s, since Keira Knightley did a topless scene in The Hole when she was either fifteen or sixteen.
You mentioned briefly what the actresses had to go through while doing these movies and those traumas are lasting and severe. I think of the sexualization of Brooke Shields from before she was even 11 (she was literally in playboy) and how that has impacted her life. A video done by Jordan Theresa on Lolita mentions 2 articles which tell the tragic stories of the two actresses in the 1960s and 90s Lolita movies whose lives were destroyed from being so publicly sexualized at a young age. It's almost an impossible task to depict an unreliable narrator in a movie when the people behind the camera and so many people in front of the silver screen rely on the face value reading. Oh I could go on and fucking on about this shit it makes my blood boil. You're so right, this is so deeply rooted in our culture and I really appreciate your incredible video - all of your videos are genius.
Videos like this remind me that there are actually wrong readings and English teachers are oversimplifying things when they say "all readings are valid".
I loved Hard Candy, which is basically a revenge movie against this entire genre.
I was 16 when the remake of Lolita with Dominique Swain was released. I remember watching and thinking how sexy that movie was. I watched it as an adult in my 30's and felt so sorry for Dolores. Especially when she asks where's mom and he says Well, she died as if he thought she'd actually be happy about that. She talked crap about her mom but she loved her. It goes on to show her crying for days, just a little kid crying for her mom. That part broke my heart. I also remember when the MTV awards had a "best movie kiss" category and Lolita and her stepdad kissing won. Looking back, it just strikes me as so weird.
Can you explain why you thought that movie was "sexy" in the first place?
Thank you for the villain part specifically. I am twenty now, but some old "friends" of mine when i was 15 still call me a wh*re and things like that... I was r*ped at a party by three guys that year and someone told me that accordingly to this girl, rhat night i had sex with "8 guys" wtf??? And also that year i stopped talking to a boy who was 7 years older than me and grromed me since i was 12. I was so angry at him, also bc we stopped talking because he started to see a girl that was just one year bigger than me. And according to them, i was "bitter and evil". Wow. Im happy im not friends with them anymore but it's crazy that these people still talk shit about me, lot of years has passed and I'm still on their mouth and I'm the villain for things i didn't even ever done. Why does it happens to girls? It's just crazy. How strong does a child have to be
DAAAMMN 😁 I can't say I've seen alot of these predatory ass movies but I never thought how much there are and how the directors themselves using these movies to live out their fantasies.
...Hollywood is a Wicked Place... Great Video