Nice Ori music. Just for next time... You should include the music you use in the videos in the description. That way, if someone liked whatever music you used, they can find it more easily.
Actually I'm raising all my characters in genshin, I'm planning to level up all their talents to 6 minimum, and cap them all at 80 until some day in the future, I prefer a variety of useful characters instead of 1 overused and everyone else useless
@@f.b.lagent1113 is this sarcasm? because that’s literally what her elemental skill is. Whack her opponent with her guitar while giving her teammates a shield
@@nonagon7385 without a shielder, she can't fight against Electro enemies. She ain't good against Pyro Specters too since those things attack from range and manages to vaporize for some stupid reason. Her hydro application to herself/teammates is just too self-destructive.
Unfortunately, and is one of my reasons for raising Diona. I just can't bring her into boss fights like Andrius or Signora because that freeze could potentially be what kills me.
@@ryuuraga1619 Idk I personaly actually change to Barbara when I meet electro shield enemies bechause she can easily out heal their dps and hydro is probably the second best element at shredding electro shields. I literally just walk as close as I can to enemies then spam her base attack while skill is activated. And if for some reason she's getting outdamaged I just hit her burst and everyone is healed.
Idk if you knew this but you put the only two pairs of playable characters currently voiced by the same va in the English dub on the thumbnail Xinqiu and Bennett-Cristina Valenzuela Xinyan and Barbara-Laura Stahl
The biggest problem with Genshin's mechanics, in my opinion, is that while the elemental reaction system is complex enough as it is, the REAL mechanics that actually matter (internal cooldowns, application speed, gauge theory, etc) aren't explained at all. And it's precisely those mechanics that ultimately make characters that superficially seem very similar (Ayato and Childe, for example) actually very different. For a short while, people thought Ayato was better than Childe - he does more on-field damage and he's less encumbered by a lengthy cooldown (although he does have more frequent cooldowns). But after lots of testing it became clear that Ayato's hydro application didn't come close to Childe's, and his potential on Xiangling vape teams was far lower. But that sort of thing isn't explained at all in the game itself.
i agree. they added a domain that showed elemental reactions, surely they can also do so with deeper reaction mechanics. this is exactly the reason why people undervalue childe, thought thoma would be a pyro xq, or bash yoimiya because her na have normal icd (she would actually just be klee 2.0 if she has no icd). because essential mechanics like icd and gauges arent taught even in passing by the game itself
As an ayato main it's mistake using him vape teams , his hydro application is for freeze and electro charged teams also childe was the first nuke burst character in this game , he really isn't a normal attacking unit people make him out to be. Childe can outdo Shogun if he vapes at the perfect time.
IDK, I used a Ayato Xiangling team for the recent abyss cycles, and I was able to vape Xiangling Pyronado consistently and easily 36 star the abyss with that team.
@@QuackEasy congrats on doing it the right way then. but once you fuck up its harder for hydro to overtake the pyro aura on the enemy with ayato because he doesnt apply a lot of hydro. double swirl setups are A LOT harder, if its even possible, with ayato than childe
@@bhavya5692 Running him as a taser driver is honestly one of the biggest game-changers for me. It's not that he can't be run into a vape team, it's just that he won't compare to a specialist (in this case Childe). Both have their strengths, with Ayato being insanely generalist (something people only like if he's OP in many of his general roles, case in point Bennett) and Childe having a high damage ceiling in a vape team and decent frontloaded damage.
Kind of loops back to the spiral abyss video. Expanding both number of floors, diversity of challenges (with implicit character restrictions) and amount of rewards would give people who want to and have to build more characters more resources to do so while not overloading people who only have one comp with them.
@@Kenionatus i think the best option would be a floor13/14 bit with 13 being a set of challenges that you can choose (with each challenge being something where a certain team is great) but only need to complete 1 to get the rewards. floor 14 would be a endless mode probably
Barbara just heals. Her healing is beyond awesome but.. yeah. She just heals. In a game where dodging and gigathicc shields exist. Her hydro application is very subpar and her burst charges too slow. Xinyan... Honestly I think she's more of an experimental unit. A failed..experimental unit. Too many roles stuffed into one character and too many scalings to fill a dedicated role. Shes like a jack of no trades, master of none.
If barbruh had better hydro app at least she would be a kokomi w/o tenacity. And xinyan is well xinyan. It's like they wanted to make a Noelle (a physical noelle under the pyro elem???)for a different element but failed.
@@ryuuraga1619 or rather it can potentially be self-destructive, it depends on the enemies after all. Just like with Bennett and his self-pyro application vs electro enemies. Tho the self-hydro application from her and Xingqiu will be somewhat useful once the other dendro reactions come in(so far it seems that dendro+hydro reacts normally in the sense that both statuses would be cleared once reacted from their official preview) cause those two can actually cleanse off dendro status. Bennett technically doesn’t trigger self-burning (even he should imo just to “nerf” him only because I wanna shake up the meta) but he does allow dendro enemies to trigger the burn. Anemo doesn’t swirl with dendro so Jean can’t cleanse dendro status either and using electro to cleanse dendro is sorta self-griefing for reasons I won’t say cause leaks. Tldr: self-hydro application isn’t as bad as you think and it should be somewhat useful later
@@ryuuraga1619 YEA barbara doesnt better hydro application to herself than to enemies. she just marks you with hydro aura and when against cryo enemies with her, you get perma frozen. that’s why i love kokomi so much and why kokomi is more than just a “5* barbara”. kokomi does more than just heal, she provides good hydro application and can do insane damage with her burst
I feel like Xinyan is used more as a dps because of her split scaling, but I do see her being a support but she normally better off as a physical damage dealer
I have one team that I play every time I feel bored of genshin gameplay. Barbara main with full clam set, support fischl, 100 cr support Rosaria, and support Xinyuan on 200+ cd (don't remember exact number) with fish sword. I love thith team a lot and exactly cuz every character is so unique, fun to play in this team, and each one gives something to the team, to the point where my barbara bubble hits for almost 40k dmg.
There are no bad characters every character is good at high level of investment but the problem is : some charactets are better at same level of investment
@@goodfriend4059 A character being functional at high levels of investment does not make the character *good* at high levels of investment, because there are easily dozens of characters who would outperform said character significantly with similar or even less investment. A triple-crowned Xinyan with a 5 star weapon and godly artifacts will be able to clear abyss, however a level 70 Hu Tao with average artifacts and dragons bane will almost always outperform that high-investment Xinyan.
I do want to say that genshin needs to force diversity in the character we build. We need to push to build different characters. But a HUGE caveat is the very limited resources in genshin. And as long as the resources are this limited the luxury to build more characters will not be incentivized. In order to build characters you need tons of MORA AND RESIN, which you really cant get easily unless you whale. So i see why they dont bump up the difficulty too much, because they put those resource restrictions there, and it would lead to bad player experience if they forced us to build characters with little resources.
I feel like this is the main thing Vars always fails to see/bring up when he talks about adding restrictions on bosses/challenges to force players to build other teams. Sure as a whale it may seem enticing, but for the rest of us it does seem pretty daunting. As you said, it takes millions of Mora (literally) and hundreds/thousands of resin to build a character well in Genshin, it can take months if you're unlucky with artefacts. Having the game forcing you to build a specific character/team for a boss that would be immune to your team of choice would feel terrible, especially as you could spend all that time an effort on a character/team you may not play again after... Edit: Kinda want to add, though it isn't directly related to what you said, that: For someone who only started the game this year, and therefore is missing on like a year and half worth of resin and farming for my characters, it already feels like the game puts restrictions that forces me into some specific team comps in the Abyss and in some event challenges (like Diluc's) Because for a lot of players that don't have perfect units, you can't just power through it and have to adapt ^^ My gut feeling says that this is probably most of the playerbase but I have no stats to back it up hahaha
@@MadRaiiden I’d say it’s more like 40/60 in terms of veteran players who’ve been around for a while with most of their roster built and those who are relatively new with only 2 teams built I personally side with Vars on this not cause I’m a whale or anything like that as that’s only relevant to how many characters one has in their roster(but that’s also built up over time as well because time=pulls also), but because I’ve been playing since launch with only taking like 2 patches worth of breaks. So like 80% of my roster is fully built to a good enough level and I would personally like Genshin to force team diversity. Tldr: it all really depends on the account age and how much of the player base is in which group
@@Wayfinder137 Yeah you're making sense there, thanks for the info on older accounts and where they're at ^^ Could be something more related to the Spiral Abyss as it already is a sort of focus for people who have been playing longer. But it's a slippery slope as reaching that 36 stars clear currently is already a big task for newer players (I just did it this patch after starting in January, yay!) But who knows, maybe a Floor 13 with special ley lines flow that pushes you towards needing that diversity? 👀 I wouldn't really push it towards other content though to be honest, it's a tight margin between making sure old players are happy and challenged and not alienating new players (with Genshin doing this poorly for both right now imo haha)
THIS. This is exactly what's restricting players from trying out all characters. This is exactly why people care about "picking the right characters", the resources are so scarce(and primogems) that you'll be wasting months trying build a sub optimal character if you don't choose wisely, only to restart the same cycle once you get a better character and the old character that you built becomes completely irrelevant
@Salt That is kindof my point though... The Abyss is too easy for some players with some specific well built characters but it isn't for everyone. Just making the current abyss more difficult (which they are pretty much doing each patch, though again, players in the top percentile (i.e. you apparently) might not notice) would just create a weird difficulty spike in the game which is something you generally want to avoid aas a more linear difficulty increase is less likely to frustrate players/chase them away. Which is why I mentioned adding more difficult floors instead, with hopefully a difficulty raise being more centred around "making players play differently to clear" than "lets make the enemies lvl 120 for an even bigger dps check" You don't have to clear 36 stars, but it's there to be done. In game design, there's a full research about player profiles and one of them is the "Completionist". It doesn't have to be FOMO or some sort of ego thing, but just "because it's there to be done, I feel like I want to do it" Some people just enjoy the challenge of it too. I know that's the reason why I really tried to do a 36 star clear despite needing a lot of attempts while I could've just waited for my characters to just be built better. I couldn't care less about the extra 50 primogems it gives as it's a stupidly small amount imo. Not everyone only do the content that is worth it in terms of primos, so the math there doesn't matter, some people just do stuff cause they feel like it :)
as some people have pointed out, while having to use different characters would be nice, the problem is how limited resources for actually gearing those characters are (and how expensive it is to get 5 star units) like, if a f2p player can get a limited 5 star character every 2-3 updates or something, it's not gonna be very fun when some content is released that REQUIRES that character, or maybe a couple of other 5 stars that the player didnt/couldnt pull for either.
Even with 4*, recourses to build any unit are very limited. You might spend a few weeks just getting one character to lvl 80+ and talents 8, and then you spend months grinding artifacts
@@djdlld I move artifacts around a lot, but also my builds aren't as optimised as other players have. I farmed VV until I had EM 5 star pieces for Kazuha, not until I had EM pieces with ER on them. There's also usually time for artifact grinding if you use the FP system as a guide on how much time to invest in any single team: when someone hits FP10, they get yeeted for the new person. That gives some leeway for artifact farming around FP7 and up (as long as you avoid raising them too quickly with the teapot). There's also characters who work well with Gladiator (Ayato), Wanderers (Yanfei, Ganyu), Exile (Gorou) or Instructor (Amber) so that also gives time to farm another set. Right now I need to raise some talents on Itto (10/7/8, planned is 10/8/9) and he's FP6. After that I'm farming Husk until Ningguang who is FP8 "graduates" the team. Albedo also needs some more Husk and I'll get pieces for Qiqi and a future Kokomi in the process.
Yea it takes like 3~4 mil mora to build a character to a decent level and that's not including any additional artifact costs or the amount of resin it will also take to get the specified materials. It's very time consuming in general.
i think the problem with people not using a lot of the "underrated" supports has more to do with how long it takes to fully build a character. if resin didnt exist i would play around with way more characters, but because it does, i tend to use that limited resource on characters that are the most versitile
I feel like “”bad”” (emphasis on the “”) supports are kind of niche, that on top of the DPS check that is Genshin, puts said “”bad”” supports in a really, REALLY stiff competition regarding who gets to be in the party, especially since there are only four slots. Obviously, play whoever you want regardless if they’re “”good”” or “”bad””, this is just my view on it! :)
The interesting thing is, we've actually seen some very niche supports that end up being fairly good, and some generalist supports that end up being fairly bad. But that's very reliant on the quality of the niche, and the quality of the support.
No there are definitely niche support that aren’t bad and just really bad support. Shenhe and Gorou are niche, not bad because there’s no one that can do their job better than them. Barbara on the other hand doesn’t do anything that Kokomi can’t, which is why she’s bad
@@aname1190 yeah, I agree, I was thinking of the dedicated healers specifically when I wrote this kek, I think niche supports like sara, gorou and shenhe do their job pretty well
It's almost like they did an oopsie with Bennett and Xngqiu and have purposefully been mismatching support kits ever since. Seriously, why the heck does Thoma scale with ATK? Why not HP? ER? Heck, even EM for transformative reactions! Shinobu did it right, why can't he? And his multipliers have no business being that low... Although being super niche isn't an issue for me, making every support universal is a mistake and will slowly push for more and more power creep. Bennett buffing ATK and not DMG overall is going to make him fit the niche of "Supports for ATK scaling characters" seeing how he does nothing with Yelan and possibly future alt scaling characters. Overall, HYV needs to stop being afraid of making strong, niche supports IMO
@@Jay-ch5xu his ascension stat is ATK% and all his damage scales off ATK, although he has a pitiful passive that increases burst ticks damage by 2.2% of his HP. Bump that up to 10% and bring it to his E as well and his numbers would be decent, not awesome, but good enough. As to why his ascension stat is ATK%? I have no idea whatsoever, EM would've contributed much more and ER/HP would be ideal considering his kit
Worth noting that, while Kuki is an improvement with her dual scaling, she didn't do it right overall. Her elemental skill, for example, does have dual scaling on the healing side of it, with both hp and em boosting how much it heals. That's good. Dual scaling offers choices. But on the damage side, hp gets screwed, because the damage, negligible that it is, runs off attack and EM. Meanwhile, her burst's damage is based on hp, but doesn't touch attack, and you'll do far more damage with it triggering reactions in an EM build than you would building for hp. Her normal/charged attacks are straight up atk, not touched by either EM or HP. And then she has her hp loss gimmick, which seems designed mostly to just make her a worse character, and doesn't really do that much to add value to the hp side of her balance equation, as 20% is low enough that it doesn't really matter, especially when you don't want to keep her on field long enough for the first healing tick of her E to happen. She has some uses, sure, since, like Diona, she offers some nice role compression. But she's no Diona. She's more like Thoma, if Zhongli didn't exist.
Honestly just imagine the possibilities of Xinyan being Electro - physical shredding shield that applies electro periodically at c0, no strings attached, and huge phycial nuke on burst
It would have been better if Xinyan was electro, as then she would had access to super conduct. Which could have made her niche as a physical support more useful.
In all honesty a big reason why I only use about 10 characters is that if I wanna use others. I have to build them. And the amount of time and resources it takes to build a character that I just wanna test out. Frankly ain’t worth it
You completely missed an important reason nobody experiments with alternative supports. Time investment. For every single character you want to raise in Genshin, you need to farm Mora, boss materials, elemental rock candy (lookin' at YOU Ruin Serpent), Purple Toilet Paper, library books, flowers/rocks/cool bugs, enemy garbage, weekly boss bling, and, if you're REALLY investing, three fancy crowns. Then, after that grind, you need to sacrifice your firstborn to RNGesus to give you the correct artifact drops. Artifacts that need to be more exceptional the further you are into world level. And that's just the character. Gotta have an upgraded weapon for them too. It's a LOT of time and resin that goes into every single character you wanna use. So there'd better be some payoff to upgrading a character. It's already hard to justify spending all that on a support who might get 5 seconds of screentime during a fight. Imagine how bad it is for a support that you'll rarely even use. I don't have Itto and I haven't levelled Noelle yet, so why would I even LOOK at Gorou? I've got a Zhongli and a Diano, so what possible reason could I have for putting time into Thoma? I really, REALLY like Cookie's design but I already have plenty of characters who do her jobs significantly better, so how could I take on the sidequest of raising her when my current most used characters aren't even fully kitted out? If not for the fact it'd take nearly a month to fully upgrade a single character (or more if artifacts don't behave) then I would definitely run around the world map with Cookie or Xinyan or Amber. But, as it stands, that's not viable unless I absolutely WANT to. Time investment is one of the biggest roadblocks to trying out new characters.
well stated, I'd like to try more characters too, but once you are AR 50+, the investment to get them functional compared to your existing units puts you off from doing so
Tbh to wander the map with a character you don't need to farm ALL the stuff, just some of it. Switch artifacts and weapons around, load your best supports and your level 40 Xinyan can take on everything. That to me is enough to keep things fresh and test the grounds to see if the investment is worth it. And I can go deeper. Unless the character has some specialised artifact set (like heal set/def set/ noblesse) you can slap your BEST glad/shimenawa/emblem, and shred the abyss. In a practical sense you "just" need 8 very good combinations of artifacts. It ends up being less of a time investment if you look this way. Unless you REALLY hate shuffling through artifacts and weapons.
Yeah I'd love to raise up someone like my Yunjin but even on teams where she shines like Ayato she still actually has a worse clear time than other more generalized supports. The general supports in this game are just so good that even character's within their niche get outpaced by them.
@@RiotAugust having a "worse" clear time doesn't mean it isn't a "good enough" clear time. It depends more than this. You can, for example, free Bennet for the other team by raising Yunjin.
@@RiotAugust im not sure where you got the info that yunjin is outcaled by bennett with ayato, yunjin is a pretty expensive support you need c3 2500 defense and 200-220% er. You have to invest a lot into her to make her comparable or better than bennett. After a year or 1.5 years of playing you can get a lot of resources and get a lot of characters raised, i have only 7 characters left to raise, even though I’ve hyperinvested into some of my favorite characters, i still had enough resources to raise other characters. So I’d say from my experience the niche supports can substitute the general ones if you want to use bennett or kazuha in another team, or they can just straight up be better
I feel like the game more or less doesn't allow you to experiment with new characters and play styles. Every time you want to bring someone new to the Sypral Abyss, you have to 1) acquire said character through mainly Gacha, 2) farm their materials to bring them to a reasonable level, 3) acquire their artifact, 4) repeat steps 1 and 2 for their weapons. While the good side to this is that it forces you into using characters that otherwise wouldn't (especially when you just started out), the bad side is that once your account has a comfortable roster, you are discouraged from trying out new characters.
yeah. Every video and list says that Xingqiu is the best hydro user ever in team but he is lvl 40 and i dont have resin and time that much. But f that, i use mona and Ayato if i need hydro in both abyss teams.
That's why I don't bother with farming artifacts/weapons for specific characters. Way I see it it's better to have an arsenal of general use weapons/artifacts so that I can save resin + invest in other characters than hyper fixating on making a specific character meta. I just farm for general artifacts sets for a few months that I swap when I am not using that character. 2pc set bonus Shimenawas, Emblem, Gladiators, Wanderer's and Noblesse works for nearly all characters. Only time I actually farm for specific sets for a character if they only need the main stat and the 4 pc set bonus is a necessity like VV on Sucrose. If it has double crit (or could have double crit) and the main stat is a commonly useful one like ER, EM, ATK%, Crit I upgrade it fully. I also save all EM, Goblets, Healing Bonus, double Crit (or potential double crit) artifacts just in case someone may need it. For weapons I upgrade all 5 star weapons, any atk%/crit weapons, and the favonius/sacrificial weapons for sub dps. Only time I upgrade other than that if it's a weapon that works really well with a character like Cinnabar Spindle for Albedo or if it's an event weapon with the bonus exp from the event. Also I only refine weapons based upon how many characters at any given time may use that weapon. For example, I have multiple favonius lances, about 4, and since I don't expect having like 8 characters using that lance at any one time I keep their refinement at the same levels Right now I have about 38 characters and they're all at max ascension with many having decently leveled talents (all at least level 6 in each talent). Granted I have been playing this game for about 2 years as an F2P player that nearly spends all of their primos on character banners.
(As context, this is in responce to a statement made in the video) Gonna be honest, limiting our charackter choices would kill my enjoyment I play the charackters I really like in genshin, and I also play the characktwrs that make the people I like stronger I'm always gonna value people like kazuhooi and the bennet cause I love Ajax And I'm not gonna care about yunjin till they make a normal atk focused charackter I like (by the way for the people that don't know, you don't just spam normals on Ajax, you use charge atks frequently cause they raise your dps by a good margin)
If we're talking about Ajax and Yunjin, then there is a pretty fun team with Ajax, Bennett, Kazuha and Yunjin, especially if you have thundering pulse.
People too often get this mixed up. You should play whoever you like and don't need a reason for it. That also doesn't change the fact that some characters are good and some are bad. People liking someone doesn't make it good; people disliking someone doens't make it bad. Liking someone is subjective. Someone being good/bad is objective. Apples and oranges. I like Keqing, even though she is pretty bad. I don't like Hu Tao, yet I can admit she is fucking good.
"bad" characters gets so much shit in this game because of the amount of resources you need to put into them for them to even reach the bottom of what the top tier babies could offer, Genshin is notoriously bad with its stamina system and 180 a day is barely enough to get shit rolling on a new player's account, I get that it's meant to be be this way to prevent overplay and the bad characters just gets the short end of the stick because of this, they take too much investment for their worth, sometimes not only time but money as well why bother farming your ass off for perfect rolls for a char like Xinyan (minmax def/atk/CR/CD) for lackluster performance when slapping the bare minimum (ER/HP/HP) on Diona gives you a better shielder, or building Razor for a better attacker
it's not even the fact they are 'bad' its the fact they are 'bad' in the one thing that checks them, abyss and its dmg dealing. If you had something else like say a survival challenged where you need to keep the characters alive under certain conditions like say, constant corrosion, sheer cold, heat wave or something instead of just kill everything in less than 3 minutes, you'd have more dedicated shielder healer builds. If you had something like say, collection challenges or more explorable domains and puzzles, you'd probably get more use out of units like keqing, sayu and albedo who make exploration fun. Make some domains with water that require ice bridging or using cryo characters navigate, make a domain with lots of burnable plot obstacles etc. the game's too focused on dmg dealing end content
@@rushalias8511 this is why I have honestly not even looked at Spiral Abyss in months lol Like, whats even the point? I see no reason to even bother with it. I'm currently working on maxing out Rosaria, Noelle, and Yanfei since they're the main trio that I like and use. Especially Noelle
For me, one of the biggest issues is that Hoyo very rarely will tweak units according to criticism. If say, Amber is bad, well that's just too bad, better just release someone better. Yes, its a single player game that isn't really that hard outside of Abyss, which is just a DPS check and no real test of strategy besides the core gameplay. But that doesn't mean some units can't get some love that have been left in the dust. One of the reasons I don't go for full stars on Abyss is because of how that balancing is, where I'd be greatly encouraged to use just one or two strategies and stick with them. It's really a case of that saying that "if allowed, gamers will optimize the fun out of their game", even if i miss some rewards because I'm using unconventional methods. It's even more sad because Genshin releases units much slower than other gachas may, so it's not like Fire Emblem Heroes, where you're trying to balance literally hundreds of character. Each character can get a more realized and distinct kit, even if it sometimes stumbles a little. tldr; waifu/husbando > meta, if you wanna really enjoy the game 'good enough' is perfectly fine (at least for me)
Yeah Zhongli is the only unit got buffed after the huge backlash, while poor thoma got stuck with an attack scaling kit. I think they should add slowly tweaks to underperforming characters every patch or add one big buff to all characters in one patch. But know mihoyo, this is so copium.
Tbh the community expressing their gripe with other units that are never on par with meta units is the issue I've had for so long, even some who can reasonably clear Abyss with a little more luck/investment than average (Yanfei and Noelle to name a few, both whose WNOP episodes really just boils down to: "There are better options"). I'd be fine if they expressed certain caveats to certain weaker characters and at least made an effort to look into their kits, but very few went to properly research specifics to make a certain character a little better and properly give the caveats to specific units (Xiangling vs Diluc where people say the former is better even though she pretty much needs Bennett to clear her jarring ER issues + Atk issues; and the latter whom many people mischaracterize as weak and disregard his strengths like zero ER issues and faster rotation refreshes + relative independence from Bennett, only needing a couple of EM rolls)
I like that the game does not force me to use certain characters like you are proposing. I like the freedom Genshin gives me to play what I want to play and still be able to clear the content. If I want to use Yunjin as my main DPS with Gorou, Bennett, and Xingqiu as support I can, but if you put in content that forces me to use them then it's going to rub me the wrong way. --- Anyway, good video!
Probably cause they are the highest spenders while some spend very little in the game especially due to circumstances if they are from NA or those who can't even afford that. Not saying it's bad or the fault is on the meta whales but it would probably be hard for them to look at it from the other side of the fandoms view probably. Like me I'm broke trying to survive with inflation around me in stores. Genshin is my stress relief with it's music. I can't spend anything on the game which I'm fine with. I just wait till my resin is up focus soley on one domain till I'm happy with results on the stats. Bit boring and repetitive yea. But watching other people play it for the first time helps me push through the burn out. Like seeing the awe and hype we all seen in 1.1 when many of us started this journey. It does need improving on. But yeah that's my ted talk
Same goes for "nothing in Genshin requires you to have a healer", i know a lot of people that put a healer as their first unit when building a team or just rely on them cus they can’t dodge everything or essentially cheat by using Zhongli, a limited character
To me the issue is rooted with "resin economy" , everything depends on resin , it just feels bad when you invest in someone only to see minor return . If artifact domain cost no resin this can be alleviated greatly since the breathing room to explore the character you pull increased exponentially . But it is impossible since hoyo is based in China which enforce time to game limited by their law , and that's basically what a resin is , a mandatory system ... fragile resin and resin topup are basically a bribe . Tbh it's the worst , but we have to respect it since it's their law . The game actually encourages you to explore character but you just can't . That's why active genshin old guards account are better than new player's since resin spent is actually never lost . Maybe there is a loss , but the loss is minimal . And they will have resin leeway since the character have reached peak potential that can carry them and in a way carry a new character they pulled thus increased the value of resin they stockpiled ... unless rng screw them horribly , a horrid 9-fold rng to stop progress . tl;dr : "any character is viable given the resin you invest in them ... and your luck , but sadly luck and resin are scarce , so scarce it actually preventing you to progress or to explore the character"
I see people arguing resin should be removed a lot, but what they usually fail to realise is that it would kill the game. Genshin is free to play. It needs player engagement. If you could run artifact domains as much as you want it would take a weekend or two to build a character or a whole team, if you're lucky. What then? Log in a few times every patch to do events?
@@lstsoul4376 Talents books, hero's wits and weapon materials take a few days each, even with resin. And artifact rng becomes way less of a factor the moment it costs zero resin. Once you reach endgame one run of an artifact domain takes a minute or two at most. You could easily do a week or even half a month's worth of resin in runs in one afternoon. Not to mention dailies take maybe ten minutes.
@@xXSamir44Xx not necessarily , i only exclude artifacts from my opinion . or give control to player what the rolls and what to roll , for example divide artifact pieces by day like talent/materials domain , divide the set into different domain , that alone would remove 2 layers of horrid 9-fold rng and still give people reason to login daily .
you can't really "break" compositions by introducing challenges that will require you to level up entirely new set of characters (not even talking about rng factor which may prevent you from having those characters). the leveling resources, money and resin to farm bosses and artifacts is quite limited. so most of the f2p players will just leave due to inability to continue for few weeks (while they'll gather needed stuff). and even some paying players might think about it if it'll happen too frequently. after all they'll spend money on this obligatory stuff instead of pulling a character they'll enjoy (for collection or to play).
Its kinda funny barbruh is more viable as a vape dps than a suppor healer lmao, getting electrocharged, vaped and frozen just by using her does more harm than good, and sadly even then, she is still better than qiqi somehow
Ye the last statement is a bit of an overstatement. Qiqi is definitely not worse than Barbara in any capacity, if you said that prior to the release of ToM and Clam set it would have been still arguable.
@@mariacancino95 Ye but her self-hydro application is usually definitely more detrimental than useful anyways, Qiqi overheals with clam with constant 20k damage per 3 seconds which goes even higher on physical teams due to phys shred definitely brings more to the table if it's purely damage contribution. I guess comparing elemental teams to physical teams are like comparing apples and oranges but thats why I exactly said "no worse than Barbara"
@@sb18wlc Both barbara and qiqi can make use of the clam set and ToM. However, barbara can hold ttds while qiqi can't, and that alone is enough reason to put barbara over qiqi.
@@tsuk184 Clam is way more effective in Qiqi than Baraba simply from her healing bonus ascension stat and her passive to mark enemies, she just overheals too much. I dont see barbara reaching 20k clams without being onfield or burst
I think streamers and UA-camrs are actually a part of the “problem.” People are more likely to play the characters they like if 100 outside influences aren’t telling them who’s good or bad or broken or whatever. Most of us experienced this early in our genshin playthroughs
Try this team: Xinyan - main DPS Bennet - does Bennet stuff Zhongli/Noelle - shielder Geo flex - burst support / I use Ningguang Pyro + Geo resonance = more damage A little weaker than superconduct but way more comfy. Buffs, resistance shred, shields. Xinyan and Ningguang's bursts can also hit multiple enemies or single targets like a truck.
Maybe players would experiment more with characters if it wouldn't take like 300(+) domain runs only to get some artifacts, let alone farm the mora to lvl the talents... did I mention talent materials? also weapon materials? it takes a few weeks at best to fully gear up a character, let alone if you are unlucky (and that you ARE)..
I have reached a point where “dps check” abyss no longer matters so I can play supports comfortably due to maxing a lot of my characters I made my Qiqi do 10k dmg with 64 crit rate for fun and she is very “viable” as people put it she also cannot die due to her immense healing and highest base def in the game making her remove any painful damage modifiers With Yun-Jin my Qiqi can hit 12-37k per hit allowing her to take a main dps/sub dps role easily Support is a relative term when you’ve finished maxing I have always mained Qiqi anyway I got her when Liyue came out and triple crowned because I love her character and the challenge it imposed It gave my genshin journey so far more meaning like having a travel partner to join you everywhere and watch them grow stronger as time moves on
as someone who has been playing genshin off and on for a while; I'd also say that a reason to not change from what works is how time consuming it is to get a new character up to par with those I already have kitted out
Well there is the issue of cost effectiveness. Levelling and gearing a unit, its weapon and talents is expensive. If one unit covers many bases effectively it also saves time, resources und ultimately even real money (resin). Building a niche unit is not only not effective but also a waste of money.
I believe you missed a small but non-trivial point when it comes to roster diversity, the time and cost of getting a character up to snuff. I want to start by stressing that your points are true. I'm not here to debate them, however let's take a look at what it costs to get a character to be viable combat-wise. We'll assume you're AR55 and world level 8, want to ascend the character to the last ascension rank, to level 80, talent level 6/6/6 and want to get decent artifacts for the character. For the (regular) boss material, that will take 46 of their "cores", 1 of the elemental sliver, 9 of the elemental fragment, 9 chunks, and 6 of the gemstones. The character will also need other materials like hiliachurl masks and lamp grasses. Talent material is no better. To get up to level 6/6/6, you'll need 9 green talent books and 63 blue talent books. Past experience has taught me the former will take about 4 to 5 days' worth of resin to achieve and the latter about 3 to 5. This roughly means you'll need about a week and a half to two weeks just to get the character up to these levels. I haven't even taken the artifacts or mora into account yet. A rational decision, with respect to game theory, is defined as making the choice that nets you the biggest payoff. Given this game currently puts a lot of time in between you starting to get them leveled up and them being viable, it'd be a rational decision for players to go only for the characters they'd get the most bang for their buck out of. I think this is part of the reason why Bennett and Ei are so darn popular while Xinian and Lisa aren't. While all four of them take the same amount of time (relatively speaking) to get up to snuff, the former two pay off far and away bigger than the other two.
It's a game of time. The issue is new players have already missed so much resin/gold events/ that they won't catch up to the vets of the game. They will have to go through the same struggle that everyone else went through. People wanting everything here now will quickly realize that you need to put in the time to reach there. Genshin itself doesn't take up much daily time, but it does require you to log in everyday to see progress on their account. I do understand where new people are coming from, but at the same time it's up to them to stick around and make their account what they want it to be.
for xinyan, how i went about building her was around her c2. building up as much cd and atk with enough er as i can and making her a phys burst support with 100% cr from the c2. the shield can take a few hits but it isn't a build priority. it's flashy and fun.
Your videos are always interesting to listen to, I especially enjoy the way you speak. As someone who really doesn't see what all the fuss is about with "good" or "bad" characters (mainly because I play the game to have fun, so I play whoever I wanna play.. I also don't think it's especially fun to be too overpowered because insta-killing all enemies, outside of Spiral Abyss, means you play less so... where's the fun in that? Unpopular opinion, I know) I still appreciate the way you present the vast majority of player's opinions in a very calm manner. Looking forward to that "underrated supports" video, if you were to make it!
Kazuha, kaeya, kuki, barbara. You will enjoy the game with those 3 underrated support, put sacrificial on kazuha if you don't have c2 as kazuha will be the driver
Just wanted to say, great vid and explanation! But I feel like I need to point out that as someone who us absolutely clueless about mobas and team pvps in general I found the League of League comparisons confused me more than it did clear things up. But as soon as you came back to Genshin, on a more familiar term, I once again understood what the point was. All Im trying to say is I struggled with the League comparisons in these type of videos, so in the end its kind of pointless. But hey thats just me. I feel like most of your audience would understand the comparisons you were trying to make, but I feel like I really have to point this out as an only Genshin player. Excellent work on the analysis video!
The "good" supports are the ones that offer a utility that furthers overall damage output. Shields do this by allowing you to power through all damage and just keep attacking. Anemo does this by shredding Resistances. Certain specific characters, like Xingqiu or Mona, do it by special effects or applying elements for reactions consistently. The "bad" supports are the ones that don't tend to further overall damage output. Qiqi tends to only heal. Kokomi was hated for similar reasons to Qiqi until Clam set came out (despite Kokomi actually being very good for hydro application) Barbara would generally be here if not for Thrilling Tales. This is basically how the community tends to view "good" and "bad" in terms of support characters: can them make the damage go higher? And one can't really blame them. The only place that even requires a person to think about team comps is the Abyss, a location of raw DPS checks. More strategy needs to be added to significant gameplay features for the "bad" and more "niche" supports to see more appreciation.
People use the same 10 characters because they can't afford more, and this is why the company can't add more restrictions. Ok, so they add a new boss that requires a pyro ranged character to beat but your Amber is level 20 and you didn't get a Yanfei or Yoimiya. Now what? Well, you don't kill that boss. Unlike Pokemon, here you can't just "catch" a new unit and raise it whenever you need to, it takes months of saving primogems, a year of waiting for the rerun and then 2 more months of resin to level them up if you're a hardcore gamer. If you're a causal, you have a 80% chance of never getting the unit necessary and even then it'll take you half a year to level them up, if they even get raised at all - if it takes 30 days of resin if you use it everyday, imagine someone who plays once a week or just for a week every patch to explore the new content. I understand what you say and yes, that would be great, but that could only work if we had 5 times the current amount of free resources, ideally without spending more time on earning them - then and only then can they add enemies that force specific solutions.
Right now I still use Barbara, but her barely applying hydro without attacking and applying hydro on yourself in a self destructing way makes it so she is not a good option after early game
honestly the worst thing about barbara is not even that she provides nothing but heals, its that she inflicts you with hydro - unlike xinqiu, it lasts for the full 20s duration, making her the absolute worst unit against cryo enemies. xinyan feels a bit stiff to play, not providing the same satisfaction as xiangling or xinqiu while her split scaling is more of a compensation (if you get hp, you don't just get hp) than an actual stat you can rely on for dps (noelle and itto's def)
I feel like burning is for pyro physical DPS as a true sunfire build; Xinyan does a lot of damage, has a shield, does a lot of pyro damage given her tankiness, and has phys shred. That plus a strong consistent burn has potential to ramp damage in a way that future characters may put to use very well…
I definitely agree players will go with what's most comfortable for them. Even if it's not always the most "meta" if you're comfortable with a certain playstyle you can get thru the main content of the game with any comfort team lol. Maybe not spiral abyss, but everything else you definitely can.
You brought up how physical damage is not interactive with the elements (besides one reaction). I would love to see a video where you proposed a rework for physical damage or a new artifact set that forces physical damage to interact.
13:44 Well to be fair, I would be a lot more open to experimenting with characters outside my usual 8 if the grind to get them up to speed weren't so bothersome. Getting the right artifacts, plus grinding Mora/Exp Cards isn't really my definitition of fun anymore so I'll stick to my established characters.
I rarely think of Xiangling and Beidou as “supports” because of their high energy cost! And their main utility is their damage so going no battery and fulll ER makes it a bit tougher for them to slot in into team! Meanwhile even tho fischl xingqiu do a lot of single target dmg, i still see them as support due to not much energy issues and they can provide a lot of other utility
I'm ar60 and still use her, even in abyss. I have Kokomi and Bennett as my secundary healers, depending on the team I'm using too. I'm also started playing at launch just because I saw a video with Barbara before, and really wanted to at least try the game and get her just for fun.
Impressive, she got me killed by Cryo enemies so many times I dropped her like a rock. Although Jean was almost my first 5* so maybe if things had been different I would've forced my way through how annoying her skill is.
Personally I feel that having broken characters with no particular counter content allows people to play characters they like more easily. For example if someone likes Razor, there's not much content you can use him in comfortably. However, having broken supports around can alleviate the issue of a character themselves not having very high numbers. It even opens up the possibility for people to use characters who aren't strictly a DPS character as such. Seeing people play main DPS Thoma or Barbara simply being able to do so because broken supports like Benny or XQ exist. The moment that Genshin starts introducing content that heavily punishes broken supports is the moment people who main unconventional mains will riot
Genshin has mobility mechanics, and many many battle mechanics. But the only challenge we have is damage dealing. We have no « reach point B from point A while defeating enemies on the way » « Heal a totem as much as possible for a set amount of time, all the while protecting it from enemies » « Generate as many particles as possible » « A boss rush where you need a good mix of survivability and damage » « Escorting a payload or something (while the payload can be affected by reactions, speed boost) » Some of those things are kind of already in the game, as daily commissions or other stuff. Maybe not as sophisticated, but they are there. They just need to balance it and tune it up so its challenging.
As others have said, I do agree with the point about the game not forcing diverse teams, but I ALSO think that... As a few others have also said, the Resin System and the Grind in general. Not counting Mora, it takes approximately 4520 resin to ascend a character from level 1 to level 90, or just over 25 day's worth. And if you DO count mora, that goes up to 6780 resin or about 38 days. A weapon for that character requires either Good Luck pulling from banners, or using one of the small number of 3 and 4 star "free" weapons you can get from quests and crafting. and take about 400 resin or just over 2 days. A Halfway Decent Artifact set for a new character can take... God Knows how much resin because of the RNG nightmare of getting even just the right Main stats and not even looking at the sub-stats. So... Even as a new-ish player, if I'm going to spend almost 2 months grinding up a character's abilities, it had better be DAMN worth that time. Which I think is where even though Genshin isn't known for its difficulty, Meta is worshipped like the 8th Archon.
i think the diversity of supports makes the game more fun, by now everyone should have bennet and xingqui so why bother get other 5 star support. the thing is we get characters based on what we like in them the most, sure the damage or their potential matters as well but most importantly their personalities, styles, outfits.. cuz in a way or another they reflect our images. Genshin isn't a tough game to play, floor 12 says otherwise but it's not obligatory to progress the story, therefore character selection is based. my opinion 😅
If you are f2p, you can't rly try every support... You must choose the ones that will work better so you don't have to farm for ages to compensate that you'll never have the correct weapon or constellations
high defence on xinyan is useful to keep up her physical damage bonus. imo shields are functionally very similar to healing. the fact that she can make 3 seperate strong shields in a span of 18 seconds at only c2 makes her contribution to survival just about as good as bennets or more due to not being restricted to a small area and avoiding stagger during it. she can also aid in pyro resonance due to her being well pyro. and finally not using xinyan is physically impossible and immortal due to how cute and fun (especially with overload) she is wich automaticly puts her above a huge chunk of the characters by default
I disagree about dividing characters to arbitrary good or bad category. For example, yes Xinqui is broken, but he does not work for charged attacks, and that's it, I can't use him. On the other hand, Kokomi is just fine. So for me, she is a better support for my team. Surprise? For anyone who likes the idea of "general good" and "bad" - yes. But there is no "general" category for me because in reality we are always talking about specific account and specific units and teams.
Most characters (like hu tao) automatically do a single NA before your charge attack fires when you hold the button down which triggers Xingqiu's rainswords. And the lag makes it so they can hit after infused NA hit but before the CA, so that it can vape. Doesn't work for ganyu, which is why mona/kokonut is preferred for freeze
@@pr0ntab yes, exactly. "Most characters" you say, but there are no "most" characters on my account, there are _specific_ characters. And for them, I need a proper support, not the "overall besties" XQ and Benny.
@@pr0ntab also, this is kind of nitpicking from my end but I'll have to note: what you said is true for polearms, swords and Heizo. Everyone else - catalysts, bow users, claymores - nope. So its not "most characters", its more like a "half" at best.
@@yoba867I agree, but despite that, do you remember how the community met her? She was so hated that even her VA got hurt by aggressive assholes insulting Kokomi AND her alike. On a side note, Kokomi is a unique story if you ask me. She managed to hold on and surprised EVERYONE. Even me, who skipped Ayaka, Raiden and Yoimiya for her, even I was surprised how good she is, and this was even before her dedicated artifact set was introduced.
there is 1 more factor in game that affects playes in using supports and that is how much it cost to be usfull if you give succrose just artefact set whit no EM no ER she can be lvl 1 no skill lvls and she will be usable in team and any upgrade after that is just bonus ( same is for kazuha or venti) is not only VV set benet yelan zhongli xingqiu fishle will be good even on low investment so you can spend resources on dps unit and give scraps to support is sort of like funnel strategy in lol
As for the question raised at the beginning- about why people discuss character strengths for such an easy game as genshin- I think a lot of it is the resources required. If I'm gonna be farming talent books, boss drops, and overworld items for a week minimum, I want to be sure it'll be worth it, and thats not even mentioning units which require a monetary investment as well
3:37 Excuse me? What about Gorou? He literally has no use outside of being played alongside Noelle or Itto. He is a character who 100% cannot function properly if at all without being paired with very specific partners.
the issue i see is ether some systems just outright condradict some cases like xinyans case preventing her to be good outside suuuuuuper specific situations that arnt even that good at, or lack of certain types of accomadating that other variations have that dont exist yet. xiao in particular is screams this where you ether need C4 jean or a +atk% anemo shread support that doesnt exist yet. its like when gorou came and help neolle, albedo and itto the 5 star on the banner he came on that hella bumped those chars usability much better on part with other teams and supports
The ori background music hitting so hard man also to comment yeah I agree with the fact that Genshin doesn't have outside factors to make you pull for more characters specifically when that said character won't perform as well compared to your already existing teams
This video was great thanks for making it! Btw without having to absorb an element, Sucrose can still trigger Electrocharged herself! They are called Swirl-Induced reactions! Since Swirl spreads an element, that element can then interact and trigger reactions that scale from Sucrose’s EM! So if Sucrose swirls Hydro and it hits Electro on an enemy, sucrose is the one triggering Electrocharged proc there :o
I entirely agree with this video. Yes genshin gives a diverse amount of options to clear the content in the game but once you find an easy way theres no incentive to spend your resources and indulge into the other options you are given because once you can clear everything one way theres no point in finding another way to do it if theres not some sort of push to do so like rewards for using sifferent teams or characters/enemies making it hard or outright impossible to play the team your currently using
I never saw Xinyan as a support and if she was supposed to be then good job Mihoyo lol. To me she was always a Sub DPS for me with her dealing DMG but also providing her shield too. Then u have Barbara as she just healing and that’s it. Just a straight up healer. Although u could use the Ocean set to have her do some DMG while healing. Funny enough Barbara is the only main healing I have on my second account and I had to put the Ocean account so she can do some DMG too until I have someone else built properly for that like Jean or QiQi. Again on my other account not my main one where I have everyone and built.
Another reason people stick to a few good units is the cost of bringing a unit to usable (and beyond) standards. Without buying battle passes or resin refreshes, the cost of raising a character can only be measured in time so maybe when I'm bored and can do it, I'll look at other characters but for the time being I'd rather continue enjoying my Noelle team. Any supports that don't help her more than Gorou are not worth the time and resources. Not to argue, but to add a point of view, Genshin is Easily the most demanding gatcha game I've ever played (granted it's also the highest quality one with an open world and endless character stories, animations etc. ) I get why it's expensive but it is and yeah, If ain't broke I doubt I'm gonna fix it...
I recall in one event it was made such that you'd clear a stage, then you couldn't use those characters, and that felt nice, you had to either portion out your good/built chars and reach deeper into the less funded ones. It still rung mostly hollow since the characters were only locked out for 1 round but eh...it was something and it was nice.
I think the big thing that hinders niche characters in Genshin is scarcity. It doesn't matter if there is a situation where Xinyan is better than Xingqiu (against the hydro boss, for example), when Xingqiu is better pretty much everywhere else. It just isn't worth investing in Xinyan. The xp books. The ascension mats. The mora. So much mora. The talent books. And then farming a decent artifact set... And then you can add the impact of constellations on top of that. If that four star isn't on the right banners, well, you might not get that crucial C2 or something, let alone a C6. And then there's the more niche thing. Like say you have the idea to try an EM Clam set for Sayu for when you team her with Kazuha for some reason. Well, the moment you start thinking about what farming the artifacts for that will entail, you'll shelve that idea. Genshin's resource scarcity pushes players into what works across a wide range of things, rather than experimenting or going for the niche. Now, there are situations where that scarcity works in the favor of a four star. If you used your scarce resources to get Itto, well, you'll probably build Gorou because he's good for Itto. But if you don't have Itto? About the only reason you'll up Gorou is to get the free permanent banner wish, barring the rare Noelle main/simp, of course. And that means any Gorou pulls are dead pulls for most players. Was watching a video today on "the meta"... and the guest theorycrafter basically summed it up as "Play national for one side of the Abyss, play freeze/vape/etc on the other". And that's because national, with its mix of elements, offense, and defense, is an omni-group, very good for any situation. When resources are limited, well, it just makes sense for players to build some version of that team.
Great video, and here a little side note about Sucrose taser comp. There a fairly common misconception about Sucrose taser on the team's damage distribution. The VERY-vast majority of the team's damage actually came from the direct damage of Beidou Amy and Xingqiu (with the help of VV of-course) + Sucrose's swirl. Electro-charged (trigged by the entire team however only does something like 10% - 15%. That is not to say Electro-charged is bad. Part of the team's survivablity actually came from the the constant Poise reduction from EC and the team won't be the same without it. However, if you are actually planning on building this team, keep in mind that you have to build the Beidou Amy and Xingqiu with the regular direct dmg build instead of stacking EM.
I really like barbara as a character. However I agree she isn't the best. I think her burst healing isn't bad but her skill is a huge issue. Not only it is an disadvantage against cryo enemies but it also heals very slow and only 3 ticks (4 if the first one that always heal her first is included) She does can heal more if she uses her NA/CA during the duration of her skill (which lasts quite long) but ppl usually need to use her CA for most healing and unfortunately her CA consumes stamina a lot. Like, A LOT. It has a long cooldown too. She also can't really generate particles on her own so charging her ult is difficult. Her c1 helps charging her ult but even so it still slow. Still, I like her a lot so I'll probably build her one day just because of that
Restriction on upgrade ressources makes it much harder and discouraging to try new units cuz building 1 unit might require around a month to fully gear, that time can be spent to get 100 def% artifact 🤡
I think the problem is bennet xingqui sucrose fischl and xianling. They are all 1.0 so people are likely going to have them and constellations, but what makes them so good is you're guaranteed to get them through paimon's shop. Abyss and occasional random events are the only content where minmaxing is needed, but for events you get maybe 5 extra ore. Why pay to lose for worse newer units when you have garunteed access to const 6 units that are still good.
The main issue is how costly it is to raise a character up. Weapons, levels, artefacts, talents. If it wasn't an uphill battle to build characters, people would be using more of them. I love Thomas' kit, hit shield is CHUNKY and the 15% damage bonus with his C6 is awesome! But why spend time and resources building him up if I can just use Diona and Xiangling, two characters that can go in many more different teams. If it was cheap I'd be building more niche characters. I love to build Chongyun, I love hit kit and the four gigantic ice swords, but alas I already have Ganyu for cryo damage. I'd rather spend my resources on another character
Signora and the electro oceanid take top one for most annoying bosses, it takes an eternity waiting for that bitch to finish being a tornado and the bird moves around too much
any boss that has a shitty opening cutscene or waking up scene is F fucking tier (Kenki, VIshap, and nearly all the weekly bosses) for wasting my time, SPECIAL mentions to the fuckers who has the FUCKING GAL to be put in Abyss where time is of the essence Shogun is straight up S tier cause you can just slap her face the moment you enter and she'll do the same to you if you're not prepared, 10/10 would always challenge on weekly reset
@@mariacancino95 similar situation with the ruin serpent. Instead of making actual difficult bosses, hoyo creates bosses that are immune to dmg half of the fight depending on how unlucky you get.
In a game with mostly time based and rapidity fighting (abyss/domain), the main thing making a support character good or nit is how much they can improve the team to clear content faster. Healers kinda contradict that by taking time out of you fight to heal yourself. Healing doesnt increase your attack or doesnt do damage, unless you use ocean hued clam, which is already very weak in its damage output. Even then, you still need to stay alive, but certain characters can just do more than simple healers, characters like bennett and zhongli, which do that, but also increase your teams overall damage. Most dedicated healers are at the bottom of the meta, or at least none of them are high tier. Healing could probably be buffed with an artifact set that increases damage outpout of your team by a percentage of the healing past 100%.
something I noticed and though was a little sad is that many players are not very keen on things being made to challenge them in using different strategies to beat enemies. with some enemies being unable to take damage because of the shield like fatui and abyss lectors. most people I hear that are talking about it call it tedious and bad because they have to change party or use other elements. same with the new vishaps that took your energy. personally I won't say I am looking forward to having my energy taken or not being able to do damage because of a element shield but I am happy to see them doing at least some things to make me be able to use different units and not be able to only use 10 characters and never give me a reason to change them. I have gone that I have everything that I need and I have no reason to get any other units. I recently pulled for yoimiya but it felt kinda pointless cause I have a hu tao with staff of homa. I love both characters but there is no reason for me to get them despite me loving both. having enemies that fly make me able to use her and find a place to use her on my account because I cannot hit them with hu tao. sadly many people I see talk about this are not happy with the idea of giving enemies mechanics that require you to use different units/wpn types/elements.
Perhaps why supports like bennett and xingqiu are so "broken" because they're part of the OG 4 stars that are not starters. Back then there were so few units that every gacha character has to matter. And as time goes on, perhaps they want us to explore different play styles, but the former supports have already cemented their positions as the best supports universally. A chunk of the comment section is dissing barbara for inflicting self freeze and self electro charged but let's face it, who uses her against cryo and electro enemies deserve to get frozen and electro charged respectively, especially when they don't know how to i-frame? There's diona for that. And let's not forget that we get barbara for free. A free healer. She gets a ton of utility now with hakushin ring and 4pc clams. She's also usable for perma free with ttds and 4pc tenacity since her ring inflicting wet refreshes the tenacity buff. You just need to hug the enemy. The best option? No. But is she usable if you have no other options? Yes. If one builds her as a dps, she's quite decent because of her element(doing vaporize). At least dishing out more damage compared to a dps kuki, who recently came out. Does more than dps gorou who came out not long ago. Does more than dps thoma who came out not long ago. Does more than dps yunjin who came out not long ago. A free unit, so what's there to complain? You just need to know when to use certain supports and when not to. The game is not rocket science.
I think a lot of the og 4 stars being extremely strong is less due to "every character has to matter" and more due to Hoyoverse not knowing how the meta of the game would play out yet. Recent 4 stars have been much more restrained.
Xinyan is usually build as a dps, though. She has supporting capabilities, sure, but looking at her talents, constellation and, like, gameplay in general she’s better as a dps
For all we know, this "good" and "bad" labels only apply inside spiral abyss, when you want to conquer it swiftly... Outside of that, the "good" and "bad" labels have different meanings... "Playing just to get however many stars you WANT is so fun" --bwaap
And then HYV starts adding more enemies and content outside of Abyss that requires you to actually know which characters are "good" for them (which most of the time are absurd DPS checks and absurd time limits that either requires complete crowd control or sky-high damage). You can obviously play the way you find the most fun, but the label concept of "good" and "bad" characters still apply for those who wants to beat whatever content HYV throws at the player. At the end of the day, it's HYV that keeps making the combat's challenge centered around absurd damage output. There are a lot of ways to make damage not the only priority to make things challenging that other games already implement. Raids in a lot of MMORPGs needs you to prioritize on defending an objective or simply survive an enemy's onslought of attacks for a period of time, some enemies have damage caps so that players can't just nuke a boss in one hit. Some people like exploring, some people like playing a character they like, some people enjoy the thrill of fighting an enemy using the best of their arsenal and abilities. I say it's pretty hypocritical to say that people should play the way they find fun and then turn around to say that people who likes to tackle challenging content with the best of their abilities are somehow inferior to those who play for any other reason.
@@youraverageguy4930 Yeah, my bad. I should say "combat challenge content" instead of "spiral abyss" specifically. While I'm happy that hoyo add many kinds of event, but the combat related is still the bread and butter; and as you said, it can be absurd to earn the highest achievement. They need "good" characters for that. Fortunately, they always put primogem at the lowest. As for "people who likes to tackle challenging content with the best of their abilities" are inferior, I kinda don't understand. Isn't that also a way of having fun in genshin? Is this a thing now? I never knew. Nevertheless, one should have fun while playing. Be it the "right" way or the "wrong" way; it is "good" or "bad"; none of it really matters. But, well, if it is in coop, one should also maintain a degree of respect, tho. 😇
@@HzALC I was referring to your Bwaap quote on your original comment. You say that people should respect how others play but then imply that wanting to 3 star all of the abyss floors is somehow the inferior way of having fun. People like you sure love to talk about respecting other players and then do the exact opposite of what you just said. Unfortunately, that behavior is rampant across the majority of this community, and this shit flinging contest will never end because people like you can't help but to start shit. Respect is earned and I'm not obligated to respect you when you disrespect me.
@@youraverageguy4930 First and foremost, never had I the intention to disrespect you nor to imply "your fun is inferior" to anyone in that matter. So I will say that I'm sorry if it came across that way. As for the context of what I said and the quote: bwaap challenged the spiral abyss floor 9-11 (hopefully reaching floor 12) only using the Traveler, Amber, Lisa, and Kaeya. Three of them featured in the WNOP video, which is not far from saying that they are "bad". Even so, he said that he was having fun. The same as anyone who main any of those three. Why would someone have fun using something "bad"? What is "bad"? Is it really bad "bad"? Welp, everyone have THEIR OWN take. Just want to emphasize that point.
I think the main issue with “weaker” supports, is a lot of their problems stem from Bennett himself. Both in the fact that by him being ridiculously overtuned they look even worse in comparison, but also because mihoyo is clearly trying to dial back on the mistake that was Bennett and Xingqiu. They didn’t realize at launch how unreasonably broken these characters would end up being and it put them in a bad spot, if they release more 4 stars at that power level they will power creep other older 4 stars even more than they already are, so their solution is to release focused niche characters to work in varying contexts to give them value even over 5 stars in certain comps but still feel like 4 stars and on average be weaker than most 5 stars. The ideal solution to fix both the Bennett issue and peoples complaints at newer 4 stars being weak would be to nerf Bennett and Xingqiu but if they did that, the player base would cause the biggest riot. So they’re stuck now with a character who’s strength is overall harmful to the state of the game with no way around it. So in my opinion I think the weaker supports are fine, I think adding characters with a focus on fun or unique play styles is more important than releasing more meta supports. Xinyan is weak but her gameplay and kit to me is more interesting than the meta characters. I think this game would benefit more from encouraging experimentation and having people use different types of characters and teams. It’s overall very easy to get a simple build of a character done.
I actually find it funny that Vars as a League player never touched on the topic of nerfing extensively. In Dota 2, even the most insignificant characters gets some nerfs time and again (one who became a meme in the community for this is Crystal Maiden for the amount of nerfs she's gotten for consecutive patches) and quite a lot of overperformers get the nerf hammer when the meta gets stale (tower destroying specialists got nerfed after the TI3 win of Alliance, and Monkey King bringing a plane of toxic waste on his release being nerfed to a point where he became useless for a while). And I actually find it difficult why the community itself is surprisingly adverse to buffing older units, especially the really low-usage ones. The pessimists aside, some people never really elaborate why buffing is not possible/illogical. A mode that also gets them up to speed should be considered too (since some of them are pretty cheap to build)
There's a lot of factors into why a support is bad, or why they're good. I'll give you some examples Xinyan is bad because her kit is badly designed, and her niche is bad. Physical damage in general is rather lackluster because it lacks good supports and synergy. Xinyan would be the best support if her kit wasn't badly designed. She gives you physical damage bonus, physical resistance shred, a shield so you don't get interrupted while doing NAs, and she has a physical burst with good damage. Even if she's pyro that doesn't actually pose a problem since that just means she's better with Bennett for the pyro resonance. However: Her shield sucks because not only does it have a long cooldown, but it also scales off defense. This is literally the only part of her kit that scales off defense, which is ridiculous. The fact that you have to choose between a good burst vs a good shield completely tanks her utility. If they had made her physical part of her burst scale off defense, then she'd be a lot better. Another thing is that to access her parts it's dependant on her shield, from being protected to hitting the original attack, and her shield sucks because you usually don't want defense. Yet another issue she has is that she generates very little particles, and there's no space in physical teams to run her with Bennett. Her kit is lackluster, she suffers from 4 character syndrome, and her niche is pretty bad Kuki is bad because she has virtually no niche. The only thing that she can bring to the table is electro healing, which is a nonexistent niche. Everything else is covered by another Unit. Not to mention the problems in her kit like her abysmally low scaling, and the fact she's the one who often needs healing. Heizhou is bad because he gets completely outclassed by Sucrose in every single way. He's a complete downgrade and doesn't provide anything that Sucrose can't do better. They went too hard on his skill, the rest of his kit got completely neglected
Had to disagree on Heizou. Worse than Sucrose does not mean he's bad. He's a fun and viable alternative and does his job fine. Just because a unit is better does not mean another is bad. Besides Heizou deals way more damage on his own than Sucrose could ever do, which basically adds to the teams total dps anyway. Just my two cents. Other points you make on Xinyan and Kukiare pretty solid.
@@ra6765 my point isn't that he's a bad unit because of something his kit lacks (although he does have flaws), but rather because a unit exists that can do everything he can better. In a vacuum, units like Sara or Heizhou aren't bad even though their kits have flaws. However, another unit already exists that does the same thing they can do and even better (Sucrose, Bennett) which makes their usage rate drop a lot. Even in the fact that he deals more damage is only theoretically speaking since in practice that's not the case. He lacks CC which means he can't effectively swirl multiple enemies, especially considering his charge attacks's AOE isn't very good, so his EM build is worse. Even if you build him Crit, she deals more damage because Swirl is too strong for him to keep up with the huge downtime of his E and his horrible AA scaling. He is really mediocre which hurts him because an outstanding unit exists.
@@leojustice3367 fair points but again, a better unit existing does not mean a unit is bad otherwise no other pyro other than Hu Tao would be relevant as a dps and Ayaka is the only good Cryo dps while another godly option in Ganyu exists. Heizou is a very minor downgrade to the point of him being almost a sidegrade from Sucrose in which they both fulfill the same role with minor differences in actual output. In the end Sucrose is still better for swirling numbers wise but he isn't bad or mediocre. He is one of the better 4 stars we received in a while. He is very versatile being an anemo catalyst, jacks up good dmg numbers on his own with full stack punch along with a minor EM buff on a relatively low cooldown on top of buffing his teammates' damage with swirl-VV and decent enough CC with C2. He fits so well into many team comps and can serve as a second Sucrose for your second abyss team if you dont have Kazuha (which I dont). Sure if you only need one Sucrose his usage drops.. or at least from those who only look from efficient viewpoint only, but he is far from mediocre or bad - he is among the upper echelons of 4 stars. On top of that, he is tons and tons more fun than Sucrose with his unique hand to hand mechanics - though this is entirely subjective. On that note, someone I would consider mediocre is the likes of Razor, Yanfei, and Ningguang because they only fulfill one role as dps and demand the team to be built around them instead of the other way around, but with the proper setup they can be a beast. Still, a dps can go so far, and their 5 star counterparts are infintely better than they are. And "bad" is what I would consider Thoma, Kuki, and Xinyan is.
Kuki is built for Dendro since her Electro application is insane. Heizou isn't bad at all he plays exactly like how a Ningguang or a Yanfei would, he provides 4-star Main DPS damage, you could never go wrong with him since the only difference he has from Sucrose is that his personal damage is way higher than hers but does less for the team.
The only thing that drastically change throughout the game was bennett and ttds. Because of bennett many things had been change and also with ttds it made the whole roster of catalyst user supports. It was quite alot not only ingame mechanics but also player expectations. Making most if not all atk stats made least of priority if you have those 2. I like how hoyoberse is making up to it by making most dendro of dendro reactions are em based "
@@chaosinfernoid9008 even it has a long cooldown, anything can happened within 10 secs of 48% atk buff, it was used it tazer team it also used in mono freeze with ayaka snapshot with her burst or xiangling with national team with sucrose. So anything can happened withing that 10sec time span.
To be honest, Barbara is good for me as someone who doesn't have a nimble fingers. When i need the heal, she's there. i usually just go back and forth between 2 characters for element reactions. not four characters rotation. i can't do that. lol
honestly, they should make other game modes to boost some units viability. The only endgame content we have now is abyss which is a race againts time-type of game which then encourage you to use units that can deal damage and/or support buffing unit. If they make gamemodes where survivability is they key point, units like healers will become much more relevant for sure
Barbara. I feel so bad for Barbara. I love her so much and she NEVER leaves my overworld team, she was my 3rd character to get max ascended and I've used her so much she's leveled herself up to nearly level 83. But I just can't justify using her in abyss anymore and that's just so sad. The last time I was able to use her was when there was a pyro aura. Her healing is fantastic but that's just all she can do. I can't justify farming a brand new clam set either since even with that she won't provide enough to my best teams. I'm stuck in vv domain forever anyways as an anemo lover so she's still getting artifact upgrades with her maidens set. Hopefully I can get more cons for her as I'm only on c3 now, I still love Barbara and don't plan to stop using her in the overworld.
13:23 okay, Yun Jin or Gorou, sure, but Beidou? Beidou is a primary off-field damage dealing consideration for any team that isn't explicitly against using electro.
its hard to diversify because of the resources, theres a lot to farm just to make one character usable. even at 60/70, and 6-6-6 talents, it's still a lot of resin.
There's only one point I semi-disagree with. As someone who just recently entered the late-game phase of Genshin and remembers being a new player - I believe that the characters are in fact designed with the idea that they'll be paired with certain other characters. I wanted so badly to use Xiangling back then because her burst animation is amazing and everyone in the gesnhin community won't shut up about her... Issue is - I didn't have Bennett and the only other pyro character I had was Amber. I got Thoma eventually but I hadn't even unlocked Inazuma - and his ascension material is literally on the very last island that you unlock in the game to-date. Rosaria is quite different as she's capable of generating particles and she can fuel her burst on her own. I was personally of the school of thought that devs should make characters that are primarily able to work on their own and then see what combos the community comes up with. Now, with a deeper understanding of Genshin, I'm not so sure where I stand anymore. Suffice to say, as someone who JUST got Bennett THIS PATCH, Xiangling is definitely a character that heavily desires that pairing and it's hard to argue that she was made without having specific pairings in mind. I have used Xiangling with Thoma to this day and while he can work, you need a heavy dose of copium to to play them together.
@@sleeper5905 xiangling was probably balanced around the idea that 1, you wont have enough attack to make her damage to explode and that her burst uptime would be hard to obtain due to energy demands. bennet makes her ignore both of those
This is actually the biggest reason why I found it difficult to buy into the Xiangling hype (especially the ones who keep saying that she's better than Diluc and Yoimiya). Diluc is functional even with just Kaeya (a free unit), and is far less clunky than people make him out to be. Not to mention he doesn't have energy issues (like at all) and just needs a couple of EM rolls on top of decent crits and he's good to go. Bennett might spice up his damage, but he is heavily debilitated by Circle Impact if that's the case (plus I don't even have Bennett). I have Xiangling with a relatively dismal build currently (and at C6) but I rarely use her outside of being a Pyro support/off-field applier
Some characters are just messed up, xinyan having damage split into pyro and physical and her scaling split into atk and def is the best example, but there are other things like sara which is insanely clunky to play just like lisa, there is also qiqi that only heals meanwhile diona Shields, heals, produces lots of energy and at C6 gives a fat EM buff, besides characters that barely work or feel bad to play there are also characters that are really underwhelming like kuki or sayu
One thing you missed on the "convenience and comfort" of using just a few characters for everything, the game inadvertently encourages this by making it a real grind to raise up a character and their equipment. It also stands as a discouragement to building in versatility to a given character by making alternate equipment sets for them to use them in different ways. Given how mind numbing boring it is to get one really good artifact set for a character it is entirely understandable that players would tend to not make alternate sets, and the limited resin system often forces players to choose between making sure they have 2 really well worked up parties for Spiral and having more variety of characters that would even be eligible to be used in Spiral. So this is NOT simply a case of players being 'lazy' or just doing what is comfortable. Case example for me: I have invested A LOT into building Kokomi for Taser Teams for Spiral. Dendro comes along when I was in the process of finishing leveling up Traveler on Anemo... So I start switching Traveler over to Dendro. This process is not finished yet, I still have not finished Traveler Anemo, I also recently got Kazuha who I am leveling up. So to leave these characters unfinished to DISCARD a fully worked up set for Kokomi to make Kokomi an EM focused set for a bloom composition strikes me as.... shooting myself in the foot. i.e. the game FORCES us to make a lot of very hard choices.
Honestly, I like it when there’s a large variety of support units. This way after seeing their design, voice, personality, and weapon, I can then choose who I like (example: I don’t use Bennet or Xingqiu, tho I used Xing for a short bit only cause he was like the only hydro I had until Mona…and I don’t like Barb lol) and go about my day.
If only Xynian phys damage burst scaled with defense she could be a def scaling shielder, burst DPS, noblesse user, pyro res enabler, phys shredder and buffer all in one, and when you get her C6 she could be a DPS due to the def scaling. They really missed an opportunity to make a good character with only one change
That moment when you’d love to switch supports but your broke ass can’t afford any new characters. I’m AR 34, nearly 35, but I’ve been using roughly the same team comp since I started playing: Noelle DPS and shield, Barbara healing and hydro infusion, Chongyun sub DPS and freezing with E, and the last spot is usually switched out between battles depending on which element is needed, and which reactions are most effective. I usually place Xiangling for melt, Yun Jin for geo resonance (and just because she’s pretty and I love her) and Heizou if it’s absolutely necessary. My only strategy is 1. Noelle’s shield 2. Barbara’s E 3. Get close to the enem(ies) and use chongyun’s E 4. Switch back to Noelle and beat the sh- 5. If it’s a tough boss fight, I’ll usually bring out Xianglings Q, or guoba at this point Edit: It’s been about 2 ish weeks since I posted this and I’ve changed my team comp quite a bit during the last little while, so I thought that I’d give an update I’ve gotten my first ever five star, Qiqi and got many other characters such as fischl and sucrose. I’ve been focused on inazuma quests and world exploration as I am a slow, casual player. Currently (as of AR39) my team comp consists of 1. Noelle DPS, shield and bonus healing 2. Qiqi healer, cryo infusion 3. Chongyun support, cryo infusion 4. Fischl sub dps, superconduct and overload. (The 4th slot changes often either to xiangling or sucrose, but I don’t really have a use for sucrose currently. It may also switch to yun Jin for geo resonance for a Noelle damage boost) I’m sure no one gives a shit, but it’s fun to write down to compare strength
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i hate overwolf
Nice Ori music.
Just for next time...
You should include the music you use in the videos in the description.
That way, if someone liked whatever music you used, they can find it more easily.
Actually I'm raising all my characters in genshin, I'm planning to level up all their talents to 6 minimum, and cap them all at 80 until some day in the future, I prefer a variety of useful characters instead of 1 overused and everyone else useless
I want a tier list about top 5 characters to whale for so c6 r5 with best team
Ther is a another problem tho....it need a lot of time to build a carecter....
Yes, characters like Bennet and Xinqiu are broken but they can’t whack people over the head with a guitar. Checkmate.
Amen
yuppppp
Xinyan doesn’t wack people with guitar either..
@@f.b.lagent1113 her skill does
@@f.b.lagent1113 is this sarcasm? because that’s literally what her elemental skill is. Whack her opponent with her guitar while giving her teammates a shield
Barbara sometime feel like she does more harm than good against cryo
Don't use her against cryo EZ
@@nonagon7385 without a shielder, she can't fight against Electro enemies. She ain't good against Pyro Specters too since those things attack from range and manages to vaporize for some stupid reason. Her hydro application to herself/teammates is just too self-destructive.
Unfortunately, and is one of my reasons for raising Diona. I just can't bring her into boss fights like Andrius or Signora because that freeze could potentially be what kills me.
@@ryuuraga1619 Idk I personaly actually change to Barbara when I meet electro shield enemies bechause she can easily out heal their dps and hydro is probably the second best element at shredding electro shields. I literally just walk as close as I can to enemies then spam her base attack while skill is activated. And if for some reason she's getting outdamaged I just hit her burst and everyone is healed.
I’ve managed to use her against raiden she’s pretty good there since I’m garbage at dodging
Idk if you knew this but you put the only two pairs of playable characters currently voiced by the same va in the English dub on the thumbnail
Xinqiu and Bennett-Cristina Valenzuela
Xinyan and Barbara-Laura Stahl
Lol you're right
WHAT.. Xinyan and Barbara, the same.. there's just no way right? They sound like polar opposites. :0
Christina getting to voice two of the most busted units in the game while Laura gets short end of the stick oof
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks the va is very talented! If you compare Barbara’s original voice to Xinyan, it sounds more similar
HOLY SHIT I WOULD HAVE NEVER GUESSED XINYAN AND BARBARA HAD THE SAME VA HELP ME,,,
The biggest problem with Genshin's mechanics, in my opinion, is that while the elemental reaction system is complex enough as it is, the REAL mechanics that actually matter (internal cooldowns, application speed, gauge theory, etc) aren't explained at all. And it's precisely those mechanics that ultimately make characters that superficially seem very similar (Ayato and Childe, for example) actually very different.
For a short while, people thought Ayato was better than Childe - he does more on-field damage and he's less encumbered by a lengthy cooldown (although he does have more frequent cooldowns). But after lots of testing it became clear that Ayato's hydro application didn't come close to Childe's, and his potential on Xiangling vape teams was far lower.
But that sort of thing isn't explained at all in the game itself.
i agree. they added a domain that showed elemental reactions, surely they can also do so with deeper reaction mechanics. this is exactly the reason why people undervalue childe, thought thoma would be a pyro xq, or bash yoimiya because her na have normal icd (she would actually just be klee 2.0 if she has no icd). because essential mechanics like icd and gauges arent taught even in passing by the game itself
As an ayato main it's mistake using him vape teams , his hydro application is for freeze and electro charged teams also childe was the first nuke burst character in this game , he really isn't a normal attacking unit people make him out to be. Childe can outdo Shogun if he vapes at the perfect time.
IDK, I used a Ayato Xiangling team for the recent abyss cycles, and I was able to vape Xiangling Pyronado consistently and easily 36 star the abyss with that team.
@@QuackEasy congrats on doing it the right way then. but once you fuck up its harder for hydro to overtake the pyro aura on the enemy with ayato because he doesnt apply a lot of hydro. double swirl setups are A LOT harder, if its even possible, with ayato than childe
@@bhavya5692 Running him as a taser driver is honestly one of the biggest game-changers for me. It's not that he can't be run into a vape team, it's just that he won't compare to a specialist (in this case Childe). Both have their strengths, with Ayato being insanely generalist (something people only like if he's OP in many of his general roles, case in point Bennett) and Childe having a high damage ceiling in a vape team and decent frontloaded damage.
if there were ever character restrictions in Genshin I feel like resources would need to be given more liberally.
Agreed.
Hoyoverse: But gotta keep you playing, losers.
Kind of loops back to the spiral abyss video. Expanding both number of floors, diversity of challenges (with implicit character restrictions) and amount of rewards would give people who want to and have to build more characters more resources to do so while not overloading people who only have one comp with them.
@@Kenionatus i think the best option would be a floor13/14 bit with 13 being a set of challenges that you can choose (with each challenge being something where a certain team is great) but only need to complete 1 to get the rewards. floor 14 would be a endless mode probably
Barbara just heals. Her healing is beyond awesome but.. yeah. She just heals. In a game where dodging and gigathicc shields exist. Her hydro application is very subpar and her burst charges too slow.
Xinyan... Honestly I think she's more of an experimental unit. A failed..experimental unit. Too many roles stuffed into one character and too many scalings to fill a dedicated role. Shes like a jack of no trades, master of none.
If barbruh had better hydro app at least she would be a kokomi w/o tenacity. And xinyan is well xinyan. It's like they wanted to make a Noelle (a physical noelle under the pyro elem???)for a different element but failed.
Not to mention Barbara constantly applies Hydro to herself/teammates which is not just unhelpful, it is also self-destructive.
Barbruh can use best 3 star weapon too TTDS
@@ryuuraga1619 or rather it can potentially be self-destructive, it depends on the enemies after all. Just like with Bennett and his self-pyro application vs electro enemies.
Tho the self-hydro application from her and Xingqiu will be somewhat useful once the other dendro reactions come in(so far it seems that dendro+hydro reacts normally in the sense that both statuses would be cleared once reacted from their official preview) cause those two can actually cleanse off dendro status. Bennett technically doesn’t trigger self-burning (even he should imo just to “nerf” him only because I wanna shake up the meta) but he does allow dendro enemies to trigger the burn. Anemo doesn’t swirl with dendro so Jean can’t cleanse dendro status either and using electro to cleanse dendro is sorta self-griefing for reasons I won’t say cause leaks.
Tldr: self-hydro application isn’t as bad as you think and it should be somewhat useful later
@@ryuuraga1619 YEA barbara doesnt better hydro application to herself than to enemies. she just marks you with hydro aura and when against cryo enemies with her, you get perma frozen. that’s why i love kokomi so much and why kokomi is more than just a “5* barbara”. kokomi does more than just heal, she provides good hydro application and can do insane damage with her burst
I feel like Xinyan is used more as a dps because of her split scaling, but I do see her being a support but she normally better off as a physical damage dealer
I have one team that I play every time I feel bored of genshin gameplay. Barbara main with full clam set, support fischl, 100 cr support Rosaria, and support Xinyuan on 200+ cd (don't remember exact number) with fish sword. I love thith team a lot and exactly cuz every character is so unique, fun to play in this team, and each one gives something to the team, to the point where my barbara bubble hits for almost 40k dmg.
She sacles with 1.Atk
2.def
3.pyro
4.physical
I hope hoyo doesnt make a character like her again
There are no bad characters every character is good at high level of investment but the problem is : some charactets are better at same level of investment
i use her for everything
@@goodfriend4059 A character being functional at high levels of investment does not make the character *good* at high levels of investment, because there are easily dozens of characters who would outperform said character significantly with similar or even less investment. A triple-crowned Xinyan with a 5 star weapon and godly artifacts will be able to clear abyss, however a level 70 Hu Tao with average artifacts and dragons bane will almost always outperform that high-investment Xinyan.
I do want to say that genshin needs to force diversity in the character we build. We need to push to build different characters. But a HUGE caveat is the very limited resources in genshin. And as long as the resources are this limited the luxury to build more characters will not be incentivized. In order to build characters you need tons of MORA AND RESIN, which you really cant get easily unless you whale. So i see why they dont bump up the difficulty too much, because they put those resource restrictions there, and it would lead to bad player experience if they forced us to build characters with little resources.
I feel like this is the main thing Vars always fails to see/bring up when he talks about adding restrictions on bosses/challenges to force players to build other teams.
Sure as a whale it may seem enticing, but for the rest of us it does seem pretty daunting.
As you said, it takes millions of Mora (literally) and hundreds/thousands of resin to build a character well in Genshin, it can take months if you're unlucky with artefacts. Having the game forcing you to build a specific character/team for a boss that would be immune to your team of choice would feel terrible, especially as you could spend all that time an effort on a character/team you may not play again after...
Edit: Kinda want to add, though it isn't directly related to what you said, that: For someone who only started the game this year, and therefore is missing on like a year and half worth of resin and farming for my characters, it already feels like the game puts restrictions that forces me into some specific team comps in the Abyss and in some event challenges (like Diluc's)
Because for a lot of players that don't have perfect units, you can't just power through it and have to adapt ^^
My gut feeling says that this is probably most of the playerbase but I have no stats to back it up hahaha
@@MadRaiiden I’d say it’s more like 40/60 in terms of veteran players who’ve been around for a while with most of their roster built and those who are relatively new with only 2 teams built
I personally side with Vars on this not cause I’m a whale or anything like that as that’s only relevant to how many characters one has in their roster(but that’s also built up over time as well because time=pulls also), but because I’ve been playing since launch with only taking like 2 patches worth of breaks. So like 80% of my roster is fully built to a good enough level and I would personally like Genshin to force team diversity.
Tldr: it all really depends on the account age and how much of the player base is in which group
@@Wayfinder137 Yeah you're making sense there, thanks for the info on older accounts and where they're at ^^
Could be something more related to the Spiral Abyss as it already is a sort of focus for people who have been playing longer. But it's a slippery slope as reaching that 36 stars clear currently is already a big task for newer players (I just did it this patch after starting in January, yay!)
But who knows, maybe a Floor 13 with special ley lines flow that pushes you towards needing that diversity? 👀
I wouldn't really push it towards other content though to be honest, it's a tight margin between making sure old players are happy and challenged and not alienating new players (with Genshin doing this poorly for both right now imo haha)
THIS. This is exactly what's restricting players from trying out all characters. This is exactly why people care about "picking the right characters", the resources are so scarce(and primogems) that you'll be wasting months trying build a sub optimal character if you don't choose wisely, only to restart the same cycle once you get a better character and the old character that you built becomes completely irrelevant
@Salt That is kindof my point though... The Abyss is too easy for some players with some specific well built characters but it isn't for everyone. Just making the current abyss more difficult (which they are pretty much doing each patch, though again, players in the top percentile (i.e. you apparently) might not notice) would just create a weird difficulty spike in the game which is something you generally want to avoid aas a more linear difficulty increase is less likely to frustrate players/chase them away. Which is why I mentioned adding more difficult floors instead, with hopefully a difficulty raise being more centred around "making players play differently to clear" than "lets make the enemies lvl 120 for an even bigger dps check"
You don't have to clear 36 stars, but it's there to be done. In game design, there's a full research about player profiles and one of them is the "Completionist". It doesn't have to be FOMO or some sort of ego thing, but just "because it's there to be done, I feel like I want to do it"
Some people just enjoy the challenge of it too. I know that's the reason why I really tried to do a 36 star clear despite needing a lot of attempts while I could've just waited for my characters to just be built better. I couldn't care less about the extra 50 primogems it gives as it's a stupidly small amount imo. Not everyone only do the content that is worth it in terms of primos, so the math there doesn't matter, some people just do stuff cause they feel like it :)
as some people have pointed out, while having to use different characters would be nice, the problem is how limited resources for actually gearing those characters are (and how expensive it is to get 5 star units)
like, if a f2p player can get a limited 5 star character every 2-3 updates or something, it's not gonna be very fun when some content is released that REQUIRES that character, or maybe a couple of other 5 stars that the player didnt/couldnt pull for either.
Even with 4*, recourses to build any unit are very limited. You might spend a few weeks just getting one character to lvl 80+ and talents 8, and then you spend months grinding artifacts
It takes like 2 weeks or less for level 80 talent 8
I build a new team every patch so believe me, resources are abundant.
@@ancalyme if you build so many characters, how do u get artifacts for them ? dont u run out of resin ?
@@djdlld I move artifacts around a lot, but also my builds aren't as optimised as other players have. I farmed VV until I had EM 5 star pieces for Kazuha, not until I had EM pieces with ER on them.
There's also usually time for artifact grinding if you use the FP system as a guide on how much time to invest in any single team: when someone hits FP10, they get yeeted for the new person. That gives some leeway for artifact farming around FP7 and up (as long as you avoid raising them too quickly with the teapot).
There's also characters who work well with Gladiator (Ayato), Wanderers (Yanfei, Ganyu), Exile (Gorou) or Instructor (Amber) so that also gives time to farm another set.
Right now I need to raise some talents on Itto (10/7/8, planned is 10/8/9) and he's FP6. After that I'm farming Husk until Ningguang who is FP8 "graduates" the team. Albedo also needs some more Husk and I'll get pieces for Qiqi and a future Kokomi in the process.
Yea it takes like 3~4 mil mora to build a character to a decent level and that's not including any additional artifact costs or the amount of resin it will also take to get the specified materials. It's very time consuming in general.
i think the problem with people not using a lot of the "underrated" supports has more to do with how long it takes to fully build a character. if resin didnt exist i would play around with way more characters, but because it does, i tend to use that limited resource on characters that are the most versitile
100% this, it takes months to build one character, I am going to prioritize the most solid ones I can use everywhere
I feel like “”bad”” (emphasis on the “”) supports are kind of niche, that on top of the DPS check that is Genshin, puts said “”bad”” supports in a really, REALLY stiff competition regarding who gets to be in the party, especially since there are only four slots.
Obviously, play whoever you want regardless if they’re “”good”” or “”bad””, this is just my view on it! :)
The interesting thing is, we've actually seen some very niche supports that end up being fairly good, and some generalist supports that end up being fairly bad. But that's very reliant on the quality of the niche, and the quality of the support.
No there are definitely niche support that aren’t bad and just really bad support. Shenhe and Gorou are niche, not bad because there’s no one that can do their job better than them. Barbara on the other hand doesn’t do anything that Kokomi can’t, which is why she’s bad
@@aname1190 yeah, I agree, I was thinking of the dedicated healers specifically when I wrote this kek, I think niche supports like sara, gorou and shenhe do their job pretty well
@@aname1190 barbara cant do anything that kokomi and egg cant*
a kokomi cant generate egg power unlike qiqi and barbara lol
what’s w the quadruple quotation marks lmfao
It's almost like they did an oopsie with Bennett and Xngqiu and have purposefully been mismatching support kits ever since. Seriously, why the heck does Thoma scale with ATK? Why not HP? ER? Heck, even EM for transformative reactions! Shinobu did it right, why can't he? And his multipliers have no business being that low...
Although being super niche isn't an issue for me, making every support universal is a mistake and will slowly push for more and more power creep. Bennett buffing ATK and not DMG overall is going to make him fit the niche of "Supports for ATK scaling characters" seeing how he does nothing with Yelan and possibly future alt scaling characters.
Overall, HYV needs to stop being afraid of making strong, niche supports IMO
Wait, Thoma does scale off HP, doesn't he?
@@Jay-ch5xu his ascension stat is ATK% and all his damage scales off ATK, although he has a pitiful passive that increases burst ticks damage by 2.2% of his HP.
Bump that up to 10% and bring it to his E as well and his numbers would be decent, not awesome, but good enough.
As to why his ascension stat is ATK%? I have no idea whatsoever, EM would've contributed much more and ER/HP would be ideal considering his kit
@@Pyoron OH, I understand!! Yeah, his attack scaling with his HP too woulda been better. X/
Worth noting that, while Kuki is an improvement with her dual scaling, she didn't do it right overall. Her elemental skill, for example, does have dual scaling on the healing side of it, with both hp and em boosting how much it heals. That's good. Dual scaling offers choices. But on the damage side, hp gets screwed, because the damage, negligible that it is, runs off attack and EM. Meanwhile, her burst's damage is based on hp, but doesn't touch attack, and you'll do far more damage with it triggering reactions in an EM build than you would building for hp. Her normal/charged attacks are straight up atk, not touched by either EM or HP. And then she has her hp loss gimmick, which seems designed mostly to just make her a worse character, and doesn't really do that much to add value to the hp side of her balance equation, as 20% is low enough that it doesn't really matter, especially when you don't want to keep her on field long enough for the first healing tick of her E to happen.
She has some uses, sure, since, like Diona, she offers some nice role compression. But she's no Diona. She's more like Thoma, if Zhongli didn't exist.
Bruh make everyone OP or don't make anyone okay. Anything else is bullshit.
Honestly just imagine the possibilities of Xinyan being Electro - physical shredding shield that applies electro periodically at c0, no strings attached, and huge phycial nuke on burst
Would also make a lot of sense. Rock & Roll, electric guitars.
Razor … well i’m electro that using 2 handed sword
@@rewer Would still be different from Razor because Xinyan would be Burst nuking, while Razor is sustained DPS.
It would make so much sense too, like.. electro guitar! Hoyo missed out on that opportunity
It would have been better if Xinyan was electro, as then she would had access to super conduct. Which could have made her niche as a physical support more useful.
In all honesty a big reason why I only use about 10 characters is that if I wanna use others. I have to build them. And the amount of time and resources it takes to build a character that I just wanna test out. Frankly ain’t worth it
You completely missed an important reason nobody experiments with alternative supports.
Time investment.
For every single character you want to raise in Genshin, you need to farm Mora, boss materials, elemental rock candy (lookin' at YOU Ruin Serpent), Purple Toilet Paper, library books, flowers/rocks/cool bugs, enemy garbage, weekly boss bling, and, if you're REALLY investing, three fancy crowns. Then, after that grind, you need to sacrifice your firstborn to RNGesus to give you the correct artifact drops. Artifacts that need to be more exceptional the further you are into world level.
And that's just the character. Gotta have an upgraded weapon for them too.
It's a LOT of time and resin that goes into every single character you wanna use. So there'd better be some payoff to upgrading a character.
It's already hard to justify spending all that on a support who might get 5 seconds of screentime during a fight. Imagine how bad it is for a support that you'll rarely even use. I don't have Itto and I haven't levelled Noelle yet, so why would I even LOOK at Gorou? I've got a Zhongli and a Diano, so what possible reason could I have for putting time into Thoma? I really, REALLY like Cookie's design but I already have plenty of characters who do her jobs significantly better, so how could I take on the sidequest of raising her when my current most used characters aren't even fully kitted out?
If not for the fact it'd take nearly a month to fully upgrade a single character (or more if artifacts don't behave) then I would definitely run around the world map with Cookie or Xinyan or Amber. But, as it stands, that's not viable unless I absolutely WANT to.
Time investment is one of the biggest roadblocks to trying out new characters.
well stated, I'd like to try more characters too, but once you are AR 50+, the investment to get them functional compared to your existing units puts you off from doing so
Tbh to wander the map with a character you don't need to farm ALL the stuff, just some of it.
Switch artifacts and weapons around, load your best supports and your level 40 Xinyan can take on everything. That to me is enough to keep things fresh and test the grounds to see if the investment is worth it.
And I can go deeper. Unless the character has some specialised artifact set (like heal set/def set/ noblesse) you can slap your BEST glad/shimenawa/emblem, and shred the abyss. In a practical sense you "just" need 8 very good combinations of artifacts.
It ends up being less of a time investment if you look this way.
Unless you REALLY hate shuffling through artifacts and weapons.
Yeah I'd love to raise up someone like my Yunjin but even on teams where she shines like Ayato she still actually has a worse clear time than other more generalized supports. The general supports in this game are just so good that even character's within their niche get outpaced by them.
@@RiotAugust having a "worse" clear time doesn't mean it isn't a "good enough" clear time. It depends more than this. You can, for example, free Bennet for the other team by raising Yunjin.
@@RiotAugust im not sure where you got the info that yunjin is outcaled by bennett with ayato, yunjin is a pretty expensive support you need c3 2500 defense and 200-220% er.
You have to invest a lot into her to make her comparable or better than bennett.
After a year or 1.5 years of playing you can get a lot of resources and get a lot of characters raised, i have only 7 characters left to raise, even though I’ve hyperinvested into some of my favorite characters, i still had enough resources to raise other characters.
So I’d say from my experience the niche supports can substitute the general ones if you want to use bennett or kazuha in another team, or they can just straight up be better
I feel like the game more or less doesn't allow you to experiment with new characters and play styles. Every time you want to bring someone new to the Sypral Abyss, you have to 1) acquire said character through mainly Gacha, 2) farm their materials to bring them to a reasonable level, 3) acquire their artifact, 4) repeat steps 1 and 2 for their weapons.
While the good side to this is that it forces you into using characters that otherwise wouldn't (especially when you just started out), the bad side is that once your account has a comfortable roster, you are discouraged from trying out new characters.
yeah. Every video and list says that Xingqiu is the best hydro user ever in team but he is lvl 40 and i dont have resin and time that much. But f that, i use mona and Ayato if i need hydro in both abyss teams.
That's why I don't bother with farming artifacts/weapons for specific characters. Way I see it it's better to have an arsenal of general use weapons/artifacts so that I can save resin + invest in other characters than hyper fixating on making a specific character meta. I just farm for general artifacts sets for a few months that I swap when I am not using that character. 2pc set bonus Shimenawas, Emblem, Gladiators, Wanderer's and Noblesse works for nearly all characters. Only time I actually farm for specific sets for a character if they only need the main stat and the 4 pc set bonus is a necessity like VV on Sucrose. If it has double crit (or could have double crit) and the main stat is a commonly useful one like ER, EM, ATK%, Crit I upgrade it fully. I also save all EM, Goblets, Healing Bonus, double Crit (or potential double crit) artifacts just in case someone may need it.
For weapons I upgrade all 5 star weapons, any atk%/crit weapons, and the favonius/sacrificial weapons for sub dps. Only time I upgrade other than that if it's a weapon that works really well with a character like Cinnabar Spindle for Albedo or if it's an event weapon with the bonus exp from the event. Also I only refine weapons based upon how many characters at any given time may use that weapon. For example, I have multiple favonius lances, about 4, and since I don't expect having like 8 characters using that lance at any one time I keep their refinement at the same levels
Right now I have about 38 characters and they're all at max ascension with many having decently leveled talents (all at least level 6 in each talent). Granted I have been playing this game for about 2 years as an F2P player that nearly spends all of their primos on character banners.
(As context, this is in responce to a statement made in the video) Gonna be honest, limiting our charackter choices would kill my enjoyment
I play the charackters I really like in genshin, and I also play the characktwrs that make the people I like stronger
I'm always gonna value people like kazuhooi and the bennet cause I love Ajax
And I'm not gonna care about yunjin till they make a normal atk focused charackter I like (by the way for the people that don't know, you don't just spam normals on Ajax, you use charge atks frequently cause they raise your dps by a good margin)
Limiting character options would also be extremely detrimental to the people who just don't have that many characters.
@@shadcroly also would piss off people who invested heavily into their favorites and not much into the units they don't want to play
If we're talking about Ajax and Yunjin, then there is a pretty fun team with Ajax, Bennett, Kazuha and Yunjin, especially if you have thundering pulse.
People too often get this mixed up. You should play whoever you like and don't need a reason for it. That also doesn't change the fact that some characters are good and some are bad. People liking someone doesn't make it good; people disliking someone doens't make it bad.
Liking someone is subjective. Someone being good/bad is objective. Apples and oranges.
I like Keqing, even though she is pretty bad. I don't like Hu Tao, yet I can admit she is fucking good.
@@bluedream3481 i tried the team but didn't like how it felt tbh
"bad" characters gets so much shit in this game because of the amount of resources you need to put into them for them to even reach the bottom of what the top tier babies could offer, Genshin is notoriously bad with its stamina system and 180 a day is barely enough to get shit rolling on a new player's account, I get that it's meant to be be this way to prevent overplay and the bad characters just gets the short end of the stick because of this, they take too much investment for their worth, sometimes not only time but money as well
why bother farming your ass off for perfect rolls for a char like Xinyan (minmax def/atk/CR/CD) for lackluster performance when slapping the bare minimum (ER/HP/HP) on Diona gives you a better shielder, or building Razor for a better attacker
it's not even the fact they are 'bad' its the fact they are 'bad' in the one thing that checks them, abyss and its dmg dealing. If you had something else like say a survival challenged where you need to keep the characters alive under certain conditions like say, constant corrosion, sheer cold, heat wave or something instead of just kill everything in less than 3 minutes, you'd have more dedicated shielder healer builds.
If you had something like say, collection challenges or more explorable domains and puzzles, you'd probably get more use out of units like keqing, sayu and albedo who make exploration fun. Make some domains with water that require ice bridging or using cryo characters navigate, make a domain with lots of burnable plot obstacles etc.
the game's too focused on dmg dealing end content
@@rushalias8511 this is why I have honestly not even looked at Spiral Abyss in months lol
Like, whats even the point? I see no reason to even bother with it.
I'm currently working on maxing out Rosaria, Noelle, and Yanfei since they're the main trio that I like and use. Especially Noelle
Cause I like her better then diona.
yunjin and noelle is my new favourite duo. yunjin for the dmg buff and geo battery and noelle for dps + constant heal and shield. so fun to use
You should absolutely try getting Gorou if you can. It bumps Noelle's DPS by a bunch (and is great considering that both of them are Geo).
For me, one of the biggest issues is that Hoyo very rarely will tweak units according to criticism. If say, Amber is bad, well that's just too bad, better just release someone better. Yes, its a single player game that isn't really that hard outside of Abyss, which is just a DPS check and no real test of strategy besides the core gameplay. But that doesn't mean some units can't get some love that have been left in the dust. One of the reasons I don't go for full stars on Abyss is because of how that balancing is, where I'd be greatly encouraged to use just one or two strategies and stick with them. It's really a case of that saying that "if allowed, gamers will optimize the fun out of their game", even if i miss some rewards because I'm using unconventional methods. It's even more sad because Genshin releases units much slower than other gachas may, so it's not like Fire Emblem Heroes, where you're trying to balance literally hundreds of character. Each character can get a more realized and distinct kit, even if it sometimes stumbles a little.
tldr; waifu/husbando > meta, if you wanna really enjoy the game 'good enough' is perfectly fine (at least for me)
Yeah Zhongli is the only unit got buffed after the huge backlash, while poor thoma got stuck with an attack scaling kit. I think they should add slowly tweaks to underperforming characters every patch or add one big buff to all characters in one patch. But know mihoyo, this is so copium.
Tbh the community expressing their gripe with other units that are never on par with meta units is the issue I've had for so long, even some who can reasonably clear Abyss with a little more luck/investment than average (Yanfei and Noelle to name a few, both whose WNOP episodes really just boils down to: "There are better options"). I'd be fine if they expressed certain caveats to certain weaker characters and at least made an effort to look into their kits, but very few went to properly research specifics to make a certain character a little better and properly give the caveats to specific units (Xiangling vs Diluc where people say the former is better even though she pretty much needs Bennett to clear her jarring ER issues + Atk issues; and the latter whom many people mischaracterize as weak and disregard his strengths like zero ER issues and faster rotation refreshes + relative independence from Bennett, only needing a couple of EM rolls)
4:13 Barbara walking here is so funny. I love making my characters stippy-step :3
I like that the game does not force me to use certain characters like you are proposing. I like the freedom Genshin gives me to play what I want to play and still be able to clear the content. If I want to use Yunjin as my main DPS with Gorou, Bennett, and Xingqiu as support I can, but if you put in content that forces me to use them then it's going to rub me the wrong way.
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Anyway, good video!
I feel like content creators who say "Nothing in Genshin is actually difficult" really underestimate how hard Spiral Abyss is for many players
Probably cause they are the highest spenders while some spend very little in the game especially due to circumstances if they are from NA or those who can't even afford that. Not saying it's bad or the fault is on the meta whales but it would probably be hard for them to look at it from the other side of the fandoms view probably. Like me I'm broke trying to survive with inflation around me in stores. Genshin is my stress relief with it's music. I can't spend anything on the game which I'm fine with. I just wait till my resin is up focus soley on one domain till I'm happy with results on the stats. Bit boring and repetitive yea. But watching other people play it for the first time helps me push through the burn out. Like seeing the awe and hype we all seen in 1.1 when many of us started this journey. It does need improving on. But yeah that's my ted talk
Same goes for "nothing in Genshin requires you to have a healer", i know a lot of people that put a healer as their first unit when building a team or just rely on them cus they can’t dodge everything or essentially cheat by using Zhongli, a limited character
a lot of genshin players merely do not care about how much damage they do. so, spiral abyss is out of question for them, but its not a bad thing
@@AkumaItachi Fr.. Noelle and Barbara saved me so many times during the early game stages. I love healers for that reason.
Just got my first 36 star clear ever using Noelle and Barbara!
We need an event weapon claymore guitar that has Physical Dmg secondary, and crit dmg passive. Would be useful to Xinyan, Razor, AND Eula.
There are leaks of a Mondstadt festival is 3.1 with heavy Razor lore so maybe it can happen? Oh, a Razor main can dream copium
To me the issue is rooted with "resin economy" , everything depends on resin , it just feels bad when you invest in someone only to see minor return . If artifact domain cost no resin this can be alleviated greatly since the breathing room to explore the character you pull increased exponentially . But it is impossible since hoyo is based in China which enforce time to game limited by their law , and that's basically what a resin is , a mandatory system ... fragile resin and resin topup are basically a bribe .
Tbh it's the worst , but we have to respect it since it's their law .
The game actually encourages you to explore character but you just can't . That's why active genshin old guards account are better than new player's since resin spent is actually never lost . Maybe there is a loss , but the loss is minimal . And they will have resin leeway since the character have reached peak potential that can carry them and in a way carry a new character they pulled thus increased the value of resin they stockpiled ... unless rng screw them horribly , a horrid 9-fold rng to stop progress .
tl;dr : "any character is viable given the resin you invest in them ... and your luck , but sadly luck and resin are scarce , so scarce it actually preventing you to progress or to explore the character"
I see people arguing resin should be removed a lot, but what they usually fail to realise is that it would kill the game. Genshin is free to play. It needs player engagement. If you could run artifact domains as much as you want it would take a weekend or two to build a character or a whole team, if you're lucky. What then? Log in a few times every patch to do events?
@@xXSamir44Xx dailies would still exists? You would still need to farm books and materials for weapons or characters.
@@xXSamir44Xx and even if they make artefacts domains resin free, the rng would continue the same
@@lstsoul4376 Talents books, hero's wits and weapon materials take a few days each, even with resin. And artifact rng becomes way less of a factor the moment it costs zero resin. Once you reach endgame one run of an artifact domain takes a minute or two at most. You could easily do a week or even half a month's worth of resin in runs in one afternoon. Not to mention dailies take maybe ten minutes.
@@xXSamir44Xx not necessarily , i only exclude artifacts from my opinion . or give control to player what the rolls and what to roll , for example divide artifact pieces by day like talent/materials domain , divide the set into different domain , that alone would remove 2 layers of horrid 9-fold rng and still give people reason to login daily .
you can't really "break" compositions by introducing challenges that will require you to level up entirely new set of characters (not even talking about rng factor which may prevent you from having those characters).
the leveling resources, money and resin to farm bosses and artifacts is quite limited. so most of the f2p players will just leave due to inability to continue for few weeks (while they'll gather needed stuff). and even some paying players might think about it if it'll happen too frequently. after all they'll spend money on this obligatory stuff instead of pulling a character they'll enjoy (for collection or to play).
Its kinda funny barbruh is more viable as a vape dps than a suppor healer lmao, getting electrocharged, vaped and frozen just by using her does more harm than good, and sadly even then, she is still better than qiqi somehow
Ye the last statement is a bit of an overstatement. Qiqi is definitely not worse than Barbara in any capacity, if you said that prior to the release of ToM and Clam set it would have been still arguable.
@@sb18wlc barbara provides hydro dmg bonus, reduces stamina while her deathtrap of a skill is active and can hold ttds, thats why i said that
@@mariacancino95 Ye but her self-hydro application is usually definitely more detrimental than useful anyways, Qiqi overheals with clam with constant 20k damage per 3 seconds which goes even higher on physical teams due to phys shred definitely brings more to the table if it's purely damage contribution. I guess comparing elemental teams to physical teams are like comparing apples and oranges but thats why I exactly said "no worse than Barbara"
@@sb18wlc Both barbara and qiqi can make use of the clam set and ToM. However, barbara can hold ttds while qiqi can't, and that alone is enough reason to put barbara over qiqi.
@@tsuk184 Clam is way more effective in Qiqi than Baraba simply from her healing bonus ascension stat and her passive to mark enemies, she just overheals too much. I dont see barbara reaching 20k clams without being onfield or burst
I think streamers and UA-camrs are actually a part of the “problem.” People are more likely to play the characters they like if 100 outside influences aren’t telling them who’s good or bad or broken or whatever. Most of us experienced this early in our genshin playthroughs
Try this team:
Xinyan - main DPS
Bennet - does Bennet stuff
Zhongli/Noelle - shielder
Geo flex - burst support / I use Ningguang
Pyro + Geo resonance = more damage
A little weaker than superconduct but way more comfy. Buffs, resistance shred, shields. Xinyan and Ningguang's bursts can also hit multiple enemies or single targets like a truck.
Maybe players would experiment more with characters if it wouldn't take like 300(+) domain runs only to get some artifacts, let alone farm the mora to lvl the talents... did I mention talent materials? also weapon materials? it takes a few weeks at best to fully gear up a character, let alone if you are unlucky (and that you ARE)..
I have reached a point where “dps check” abyss no longer matters so I can play supports comfortably due to maxing a lot of my characters
I made my Qiqi do 10k dmg with 64 crit rate for fun and she is very “viable” as people put it
she also cannot die due to her immense healing and highest base def in the game making her remove any painful damage modifiers
With Yun-Jin my Qiqi can hit 12-37k per hit allowing her to take a main dps/sub dps role easily
Support is a relative term when you’ve finished maxing
I have always mained Qiqi anyway I got her when Liyue came out and triple crowned because I love her character and the challenge it imposed
It gave my genshin journey so far more meaning like having a travel partner to join you everywhere and watch them grow stronger as time moves on
as someone who has been playing genshin off and on for a while; I'd also say that a reason to not change from what works is how time consuming it is to get a new character up to par with those I already have kitted out
Well there is the issue of cost effectiveness.
Levelling and gearing a unit, its weapon and talents is expensive. If one unit covers many bases effectively it also saves time, resources und ultimately even real money (resin).
Building a niche unit is not only not effective but also a waste of money.
I believe you missed a small but non-trivial point when it comes to roster diversity, the time and cost of getting a character up to snuff.
I want to start by stressing that your points are true. I'm not here to debate them, however let's take a look at what it costs to get a character to be viable combat-wise. We'll assume you're AR55 and world level 8, want to ascend the character to the last ascension rank, to level 80, talent level 6/6/6 and want to get decent artifacts for the character. For the (regular) boss material, that will take 46 of their "cores", 1 of the elemental sliver, 9 of the elemental fragment, 9 chunks, and 6 of the gemstones. The character will also need other materials like hiliachurl masks and lamp grasses. Talent material is no better. To get up to level 6/6/6, you'll need 9 green talent books and 63 blue talent books. Past experience has taught me the former will take about 4 to 5 days' worth of resin to achieve and the latter about 3 to 5. This roughly means you'll need about a week and a half to two weeks just to get the character up to these levels. I haven't even taken the artifacts or mora into account yet.
A rational decision, with respect to game theory, is defined as making the choice that nets you the biggest payoff. Given this game currently puts a lot of time in between you starting to get them leveled up and them being viable, it'd be a rational decision for players to go only for the characters they'd get the most bang for their buck out of. I think this is part of the reason why Bennett and Ei are so darn popular while Xinian and Lisa aren't. While all four of them take the same amount of time (relatively speaking) to get up to snuff, the former two pay off far and away bigger than the other two.
It's a game of time. The issue is new players have already missed so much resin/gold events/ that they won't catch up to the vets of the game. They will have to go through the same struggle that everyone else went through.
People wanting everything here now will quickly realize that you need to put in the time to reach there. Genshin itself doesn't take up much daily time, but it does require you to log in everyday to see progress on their account. I do understand where new people are coming from, but at the same time it's up to them to stick around and make their account what they want it to be.
for xinyan, how i went about building her was around her c2. building up as much cd and atk with enough er as i can and making her a phys burst support with 100% cr from the c2. the shield can take a few hits but it isn't a build priority. it's flashy and fun.
Your videos are always interesting to listen to, I especially enjoy the way you speak.
As someone who really doesn't see what all the fuss is about with "good" or "bad" characters (mainly because I play the game to have fun, so I play whoever I wanna play.. I also don't think it's especially fun to be too overpowered because insta-killing all enemies, outside of Spiral Abyss, means you play less so... where's the fun in that? Unpopular opinion, I know) I still appreciate the way you present the vast majority of player's opinions in a very calm manner. Looking forward to that "underrated supports" video, if you were to make it!
Kazuha, kaeya, kuki, barbara. You will enjoy the game with those 3 underrated support, put sacrificial on kazuha if you don't have c2 as kazuha will be the driver
Just wanted to say, great vid and explanation! But I feel like I need to point out that as someone who us absolutely clueless about mobas and team pvps in general I found the League of League comparisons confused me more than it did clear things up. But as soon as you came back to Genshin, on a more familiar term, I once again understood what the point was. All Im trying to say is I struggled with the League comparisons in these type of videos, so in the end its kind of pointless. But hey thats just me. I feel like most of your audience would understand the comparisons you were trying to make, but I feel like I really have to point this out as an only Genshin player. Excellent work on the analysis video!
agreed
Again, more quality content. Another fun and interesting video on game design, and genshin as a whole :)
The "good" supports are the ones that offer a utility that furthers overall damage output.
Shields do this by allowing you to power through all damage and just keep attacking.
Anemo does this by shredding Resistances.
Certain specific characters, like Xingqiu or Mona, do it by special effects or applying elements for reactions consistently.
The "bad" supports are the ones that don't tend to further overall damage output.
Qiqi tends to only heal.
Kokomi was hated for similar reasons to Qiqi until Clam set came out (despite Kokomi actually being very good for hydro application)
Barbara would generally be here if not for Thrilling Tales.
This is basically how the community tends to view "good" and "bad" in terms of support characters: can them make the damage go higher?
And one can't really blame them. The only place that even requires a person to think about team comps is the Abyss, a location of raw DPS checks.
More strategy needs to be added to significant gameplay features for the "bad" and more "niche" supports to see more appreciation.
People use the same 10 characters because they can't afford more, and this is why the company can't add more restrictions. Ok, so they add a new boss that requires a pyro ranged character to beat but your Amber is level 20 and you didn't get a Yanfei or Yoimiya. Now what? Well, you don't kill that boss. Unlike Pokemon, here you can't just "catch" a new unit and raise it whenever you need to, it takes months of saving primogems, a year of waiting for the rerun and then 2 more months of resin to level them up if you're a hardcore gamer. If you're a causal, you have a 80% chance of never getting the unit necessary and even then it'll take you half a year to level them up, if they even get raised at all - if it takes 30 days of resin if you use it everyday, imagine someone who plays once a week or just for a week every patch to explore the new content.
I understand what you say and yes, that would be great, but that could only work if we had 5 times the current amount of free resources, ideally without spending more time on earning them - then and only then can they add enemies that force specific solutions.
Right now I still use Barbara, but her barely applying hydro without attacking and applying hydro on yourself in a self destructing way makes it so she is not a good option after early game
Yeah even Shinobu and Qiqi are better than her
honestly the worst thing about barbara is not even that she provides nothing but heals, its that she inflicts you with hydro - unlike xinqiu, it lasts for the full 20s duration, making her the absolute worst unit against cryo enemies. xinyan feels a bit stiff to play, not providing the same satisfaction as xiangling or xinqiu while her split scaling is more of a compensation (if you get hp, you don't just get hp) than an actual stat you can rely on for dps (noelle and itto's def)
Not only cryo, but also electro and pyro, electro for obvious reasons, and pyro because they can vaporize and oneshot low hp characters in the abyss
actually, xingqui also inflicts you with hydro but only a split second, still enough to freeze you mid air
I feel like burning is for pyro physical DPS as a true sunfire build; Xinyan does a lot of damage, has a shield, does a lot of pyro damage given her tankiness, and has phys shred. That plus a strong consistent burn has potential to ramp damage in a way that future characters may put to use very well…
I definitely agree players will go with what's most comfortable for them. Even if it's not always the most "meta" if you're comfortable with a certain playstyle you can get thru the main content of the game with any comfort team lol. Maybe not spiral abyss, but everything else you definitely can.
You brought up how physical damage is not interactive with the elements (besides one reaction). I would love to see a video where you proposed a rework for physical damage or a new artifact set that forces physical damage to interact.
13:44 Well to be fair, I would be a lot more open to experimenting with characters outside my usual 8 if the grind to get them up to speed weren't so bothersome.
Getting the right artifacts, plus grinding Mora/Exp Cards isn't really my definitition of fun anymore so I'll stick to my established characters.
I rarely think of Xiangling and Beidou as “supports” because of their high energy cost! And their main utility is their damage so going no battery and fulll ER makes it a bit tougher for them to slot in into team!
Meanwhile even tho fischl xingqiu do a lot of single target dmg, i still see them as support due to not much energy issues and they can provide a lot of other utility
Barbara has carried me through ar 18-48 so she’ll forever have a slot on my teams!
yeah. to me she is best hydro healer. I use her if i need freeze team. She is good with kaeya. Water and ice is going nicely around Kazuha :D
I'm ar60 and still use her, even in abyss. I have Kokomi and Bennett as my secundary healers, depending on the team I'm using too. I'm also started playing at launch just because I saw a video with Barbara before, and really wanted to at least try the game and get her just for fun.
Impressive, she got me killed by Cryo enemies so many times I dropped her like a rock. Although Jean was almost my first 5* so maybe if things had been different I would've forced my way through how annoying her skill is.
3:38 we'll probaby have Nilou soon, I think? Just speculating on how dendro reactions work and how she convenient looks like a hydro :')
Personally I feel that having broken characters with no particular counter content allows people to play characters they like more easily. For example if someone likes Razor, there's not much content you can use him in comfortably. However, having broken supports around can alleviate the issue of a character themselves not having very high numbers. It even opens up the possibility for people to use characters who aren't strictly a DPS character as such. Seeing people play main DPS Thoma or Barbara simply being able to do so because broken supports like Benny or XQ exist. The moment that Genshin starts introducing content that heavily punishes broken supports is the moment people who main unconventional mains will riot
Genshin has mobility mechanics, and many many battle mechanics. But the only challenge we have is damage dealing.
We have no « reach point B from point A while defeating enemies on the way »
« Heal a totem as much as possible for a set amount of time, all the while protecting it from enemies »
« Generate as many particles as possible »
« A boss rush where you need a good mix of survivability and damage »
« Escorting a payload or something (while the payload can be affected by reactions, speed boost) »
Some of those things are kind of already in the game, as daily commissions or other stuff. Maybe not as sophisticated, but they are there.
They just need to balance it and tune it up so its challenging.
As others have said, I do agree with the point about the game not forcing diverse teams, but I ALSO think that... As a few others have also said, the Resin System and the Grind in general.
Not counting Mora, it takes approximately 4520 resin to ascend a character from level 1 to level 90, or just over 25 day's worth. And if you DO count mora, that goes up to 6780 resin or about 38 days.
A weapon for that character requires either Good Luck pulling from banners, or using one of the small number of 3 and 4 star "free" weapons you can get from quests and crafting. and take about 400 resin or just over 2 days.
A Halfway Decent Artifact set for a new character can take... God Knows how much resin because of the RNG nightmare of getting even just the right Main stats and not even looking at the sub-stats.
So... Even as a new-ish player, if I'm going to spend almost 2 months grinding up a character's abilities, it had better be DAMN worth that time. Which I think is where even though Genshin isn't known for its difficulty, Meta is worshipped like the 8th Archon.
love that you used Ori and the Blind Forest music for this video, it goes really nicely with Genshin gameplay somehow
i think the diversity of supports makes the game more fun, by now everyone should have bennet and xingqui so why bother get other 5 star support. the thing is we get characters based on what we like in them the most, sure the damage or their potential matters as well but most importantly their personalities, styles, outfits.. cuz in a way or another they reflect our images. Genshin isn't a tough game to play, floor 12 says otherwise but it's not obligatory to progress the story, therefore character selection is based. my opinion 😅
If you are f2p, you can't rly try every support... You must choose the ones that will work better so you don't have to farm for ages to compensate that you'll never have the correct weapon or constellations
high defence on xinyan is useful to keep up her physical damage bonus. imo shields are functionally very similar to healing. the fact that she can make 3 seperate strong shields in a span of 18 seconds at only c2 makes her contribution to survival just about as good as bennets or more due to not being restricted to a small area and avoiding stagger during it. she can also aid in pyro resonance due to her being well pyro. and finally not using xinyan is physically impossible and immortal due to how cute and fun (especially with overload) she is wich automaticly puts her above a huge chunk of the characters by default
You sir, inhaled a lot of COPIUM. Holy Shit.
@@chaosinfernoid9008 just pure Factium sir B)
I disagree about dividing characters to arbitrary good or bad category. For example, yes Xinqui is broken, but he does not work for charged attacks, and that's it, I can't use him. On the other hand, Kokomi is just fine. So for me, she is a better support for my team.
Surprise? For anyone who likes the idea of "general good" and "bad" - yes. But there is no "general" category for me because in reality we are always talking about specific account and specific units and teams.
Most characters (like hu tao) automatically do a single NA before your charge attack fires when you hold the button down which triggers Xingqiu's rainswords. And the lag makes it so they can hit after infused NA hit but before the CA, so that it can vape.
Doesn't work for ganyu, which is why mona/kokonut is preferred for freeze
@@pr0ntab yes, exactly. "Most characters" you say, but there are no "most" characters on my account, there are _specific_ characters. And for them, I need a proper support, not the "overall besties" XQ and Benny.
@@pr0ntab also, this is kind of nitpicking from my end but I'll have to note: what you said is true for polearms, swords and Heizo. Everyone else - catalysts, bow users, claymores - nope. So its not "most characters", its more like a "half" at best.
Kokomi is generally considered either good or very good, that's not a fair comparison.
@@yoba867I agree, but despite that, do you remember how the community met her? She was so hated that even her VA got hurt by aggressive assholes insulting Kokomi AND her alike.
On a side note, Kokomi is a unique story if you ask me. She managed to hold on and surprised EVERYONE. Even me, who skipped Ayaka, Raiden and Yoimiya for her, even I was surprised how good she is, and this was even before her dedicated artifact set was introduced.
there is 1 more factor in game that affects playes in using supports and that is how much it cost to be usfull
if you give succrose just artefact set whit no EM no ER she can be lvl 1 no skill lvls and she will be usable in team and any upgrade after that is just bonus ( same is for kazuha or venti)
is not only VV set benet yelan zhongli xingqiu fishle will be good even on low investment so you can spend resources on dps unit and give scraps to support
is sort of like funnel strategy in lol
As for the question raised at the beginning- about why people discuss character strengths for such an easy game as genshin- I think a lot of it is the resources required. If I'm gonna be farming talent books, boss drops, and overworld items for a week minimum, I want to be sure it'll be worth it, and thats not even mentioning units which require a monetary investment as well
You're right about basically everything you said, but especially about how absolutely excellent Coliseum and XD were.
3:37 Excuse me?
What about Gorou?
He literally has no use outside of being played alongside Noelle or Itto. He is a character who 100% cannot function properly if at all without being paired with very specific partners.
Genshin is inherently a dps check game
BEEG numbers
@Offisianシ until you build charged attack dps
the issue i see is ether some systems just outright condradict some cases like xinyans case preventing her to be good outside suuuuuuper specific situations that arnt even that good at, or lack of certain types of accomadating that other variations have that dont exist yet. xiao in particular is screams this where you ether need C4 jean or a +atk% anemo shread support that doesnt exist yet. its like when gorou came and help neolle, albedo and itto the 5 star on the banner he came on that hella bumped those chars usability much better on part with other teams and supports
I'm not sure who might be interested but the background ost of the video is "Riding the Wind" from the game Ori and the blind forest
The ori background music hitting so hard man also to comment yeah I agree with the fact that Genshin doesn't have outside factors to make you pull for more characters specifically when that said character won't perform as well compared to your already existing teams
This video was great thanks for making it!
Btw without having to absorb an element, Sucrose can still trigger Electrocharged herself!
They are called Swirl-Induced reactions! Since Swirl spreads an element, that element can then interact and trigger reactions that scale from Sucrose’s EM! So if Sucrose swirls Hydro and it hits Electro on an enemy, sucrose is the one triggering Electrocharged proc there :o
I entirely agree with this video. Yes genshin gives a diverse amount of options to clear the content in the game but once you find an easy way theres no incentive to spend your resources and indulge into the other options you are given because once you can clear everything one way theres no point in finding another way to do it if theres not some sort of push to do so like rewards for using sifferent teams or characters/enemies making it hard or outright impossible to play the team your currently using
I never saw Xinyan as a support and if she was supposed to be then good job Mihoyo lol. To me she was always a Sub DPS for me with her dealing DMG but also providing her shield too.
Then u have Barbara as she just healing and that’s it. Just a straight up healer. Although u could use the Ocean set to have her do some DMG while healing. Funny enough Barbara is the only main healing I have on my second account and I had to put the Ocean account so she can do some DMG too until I have someone else built properly for that like Jean or QiQi. Again on my other account not my main one where I have everyone and built.
Another reason people stick to a few good units is the cost of bringing a unit to usable (and beyond) standards. Without buying battle passes or resin refreshes, the cost of raising a character can only be measured in time so maybe when I'm bored and can do it, I'll look at other characters but for the time being I'd rather continue enjoying my Noelle team. Any supports that don't help her more than Gorou are not worth the time and resources.
Not to argue, but to add a point of view, Genshin is Easily the most demanding gatcha game I've ever played (granted it's also the highest quality one with an open world and endless character stories, animations etc. ) I get why it's expensive but it is and yeah, If ain't broke I doubt I'm gonna fix it...
I recall in one event it was made such that you'd clear a stage, then you couldn't use those characters, and that felt nice, you had to either portion out your good/built chars and reach deeper into the less funded ones. It still rung mostly hollow since the characters were only locked out for 1 round but eh...it was something and it was nice.
I think the big thing that hinders niche characters in Genshin is scarcity. It doesn't matter if there is a situation where Xinyan is better than Xingqiu (against the hydro boss, for example), when Xingqiu is better pretty much everywhere else. It just isn't worth investing in Xinyan. The xp books. The ascension mats. The mora. So much mora. The talent books. And then farming a decent artifact set... And then you can add the impact of constellations on top of that. If that four star isn't on the right banners, well, you might not get that crucial C2 or something, let alone a C6. And then there's the more niche thing. Like say you have the idea to try an EM Clam set for Sayu for when you team her with Kazuha for some reason. Well, the moment you start thinking about what farming the artifacts for that will entail, you'll shelve that idea. Genshin's resource scarcity pushes players into what works across a wide range of things, rather than experimenting or going for the niche.
Now, there are situations where that scarcity works in the favor of a four star. If you used your scarce resources to get Itto, well, you'll probably build Gorou because he's good for Itto. But if you don't have Itto? About the only reason you'll up Gorou is to get the free permanent banner wish, barring the rare Noelle main/simp, of course. And that means any Gorou pulls are dead pulls for most players.
Was watching a video today on "the meta"... and the guest theorycrafter basically summed it up as "Play national for one side of the Abyss, play freeze/vape/etc on the other". And that's because national, with its mix of elements, offense, and defense, is an omni-group, very good for any situation. When resources are limited, well, it just makes sense for players to build some version of that team.
Great video, and here a little side note about Sucrose taser comp.
There a fairly common misconception about Sucrose taser on the team's damage distribution. The VERY-vast majority of the team's damage actually came from the direct damage of Beidou Amy and Xingqiu (with the help of VV of-course) + Sucrose's swirl. Electro-charged (trigged by the entire team however only does something like 10% - 15%.
That is not to say Electro-charged is bad. Part of the team's survivablity actually came from the the constant Poise reduction from EC and the team won't be the same without it.
However, if you are actually planning on building this team, keep in mind that you have to build the Beidou Amy and Xingqiu with the regular direct dmg build instead of stacking EM.
Well, your Wolf Lord clears put mine to shame. I use a combination of hydro and geo for that boss, but you've made me reconsider my ways.
I really like barbara as a character. However I agree she isn't the best. I think her burst healing isn't bad but her skill is a huge issue. Not only it is an disadvantage against cryo enemies but it also heals very slow and only 3 ticks (4 if the first one that always heal her first is included) She does can heal more if she uses her NA/CA during the duration of her skill (which lasts quite long) but ppl usually need to use her CA for most healing and unfortunately her CA consumes stamina a lot. Like, A LOT. It has a long cooldown too. She also can't really generate particles on her own so charging her ult is difficult. Her c1 helps charging her ult but even so it still slow. Still, I like her a lot so I'll probably build her one day just because of that
Restriction on upgrade ressources makes it much harder and discouraging to try new units cuz building 1 unit might require around a month to fully gear, that time can be spent to get 100 def% artifact 🤡
I think the problem is bennet xingqui sucrose fischl and xianling. They are all 1.0 so people are likely going to have them and constellations, but what makes them so good is you're guaranteed to get them through paimon's shop. Abyss and occasional random events are the only content where minmaxing is needed, but for events you get maybe 5 extra ore. Why pay to lose for worse newer units when you have garunteed access to const 6 units that are still good.
I have oll of them C6... so getting them is just a pain to me. Playing other units is more fun.
The main issue is how costly it is to raise a character up.
Weapons, levels, artefacts, talents.
If it wasn't an uphill battle to build characters, people would be using more of them.
I love Thomas' kit, hit shield is CHUNKY and the 15% damage bonus with his C6 is awesome!
But why spend time and resources building him up if I can just use Diona and Xiangling, two characters that can go in many more different teams.
If it was cheap I'd be building more niche characters. I love to build Chongyun, I love hit kit and the four gigantic ice swords, but alas I already have Ganyu for cryo damage. I'd rather spend my resources on another character
Do A Boss Ranking Video and On How Easy and How Hard They Can Be?
Yea a boss ranking video would be cool !
I already know where Azdaha belongs
Signora and the electro oceanid take top one for most annoying bosses, it takes an eternity waiting for that bitch to finish being a tornado and the bird moves around too much
any boss that has a shitty opening cutscene or waking up scene is F fucking tier (Kenki, VIshap, and nearly all the weekly bosses) for wasting my time, SPECIAL mentions to the fuckers who has the FUCKING GAL to be put in Abyss where time is of the essence
Shogun is straight up S tier cause you can just slap her face the moment you enter and she'll do the same to you if you're not prepared, 10/10 would always challenge on weekly reset
@@mariacancino95 similar situation with the ruin serpent. Instead of making actual difficult bosses, hoyo creates bosses that are immune to dmg half of the fight depending on how unlucky you get.
In a game with mostly time based and rapidity fighting (abyss/domain), the main thing making a support character good or nit is how much they can improve the team to clear content faster. Healers kinda contradict that by taking time out of you fight to heal yourself. Healing doesnt increase your attack or doesnt do damage, unless you use ocean hued clam, which is already very weak in its damage output. Even then, you still need to stay alive, but certain characters can just do more than simple healers, characters like bennett and zhongli, which do that, but also increase your teams overall damage. Most dedicated healers are at the bottom of the meta, or at least none of them are high tier. Healing could probably be buffed with an artifact set that increases damage outpout of your team by a percentage of the healing past 100%.
something I noticed and though was a little sad is that many players are not very keen on things being made to challenge them in using different strategies to beat enemies. with some enemies being unable to take damage because of the shield like fatui and abyss lectors. most people I hear that are talking about it call it tedious and bad because they have to change party or use other elements. same with the new vishaps that took your energy. personally I won't say I am looking forward to having my energy taken or not being able to do damage because of a element shield but I am happy to see them doing at least some things to make me be able to use different units and not be able to only use 10 characters and never give me a reason to change them. I have gone that I have everything that I need and I have no reason to get any other units. I recently pulled for yoimiya but it felt kinda pointless cause I have a hu tao with staff of homa. I love both characters but there is no reason for me to get them despite me loving both. having enemies that fly make me able to use her and find a place to use her on my account because I cannot hit them with hu tao. sadly many people I see talk about this are not happy with the idea of giving enemies mechanics that require you to use different units/wpn types/elements.
Perhaps why supports like bennett and xingqiu are so "broken" because they're part of the OG 4 stars that are not starters. Back then there were so few units that every gacha character has to matter. And as time goes on, perhaps they want us to explore different play styles, but the former supports have already cemented their positions as the best supports universally.
A chunk of the comment section is dissing barbara for inflicting self freeze and self electro charged but let's face it, who uses her against cryo and electro enemies deserve to get frozen and electro charged respectively, especially when they don't know how to i-frame? There's diona for that. And let's not forget that we get barbara for free. A free healer. She gets a ton of utility now with hakushin ring and 4pc clams. She's also usable for perma free with ttds and 4pc tenacity since her ring inflicting wet refreshes the tenacity buff. You just need to hug the enemy. The best option? No. But is she usable if you have no other options? Yes. If one builds her as a dps, she's quite decent because of her element(doing vaporize). At least dishing out more damage compared to a dps kuki, who recently came out. Does more than dps gorou who came out not long ago. Does more than dps thoma who came out not long ago. Does more than dps yunjin who came out not long ago. A free unit, so what's there to complain?
You just need to know when to use certain supports and when not to. The game is not rocket science.
I use her for raiden and she’s actually pretty good. I suck at dodging so the heals save my life
Well said 👏
I think a lot of the og 4 stars being extremely strong is less due to "every character has to matter" and more due to Hoyoverse not knowing how the meta of the game would play out yet. Recent 4 stars have been much more restrained.
People who have alternatives do not use barbaruh to begin with
Xinyan is usually build as a dps, though. She has supporting capabilities, sure, but looking at her talents, constellation and, like, gameplay in general she’s better as a dps
yeppp
For all we know, this "good" and "bad" labels only apply inside spiral abyss, when you want to conquer it swiftly... Outside of that, the "good" and "bad" labels have different meanings...
"Playing just to get however many stars you WANT is so fun" --bwaap
And then HYV starts adding more enemies and content outside of Abyss that requires you to actually know which characters are "good" for them (which most of the time are absurd DPS checks and absurd time limits that either requires complete crowd control or sky-high damage). You can obviously play the way you find the most fun, but the label concept of "good" and "bad" characters still apply for those who wants to beat whatever content HYV throws at the player.
At the end of the day, it's HYV that keeps making the combat's challenge centered around absurd damage output. There are a lot of ways to make damage not the only priority to make things challenging that other games already implement. Raids in a lot of MMORPGs needs you to prioritize on defending an objective or simply survive an enemy's onslought of attacks for a period of time, some enemies have damage caps so that players can't just nuke a boss in one hit.
Some people like exploring, some people like playing a character they like, some people enjoy the thrill of fighting an enemy using the best of their arsenal and abilities. I say it's pretty hypocritical to say that people should play the way they find fun and then turn around to say that people who likes to tackle challenging content with the best of their abilities are somehow inferior to those who play for any other reason.
@@youraverageguy4930 Yeah, my bad. I should say "combat challenge content" instead of "spiral abyss" specifically. While I'm happy that hoyo add many kinds of event, but the combat related is still the bread and butter; and as you said, it can be absurd to earn the highest achievement. They need "good" characters for that. Fortunately, they always put primogem at the lowest.
As for "people who likes to tackle challenging content with the best of their abilities" are inferior, I kinda don't understand. Isn't that also a way of having fun in genshin? Is this a thing now? I never knew. Nevertheless, one should have fun while playing. Be it the "right" way or the "wrong" way; it is "good" or "bad"; none of it really matters. But, well, if it is in coop, one should also maintain a degree of respect, tho. 😇
@@HzALC I was referring to your Bwaap quote on your original comment.
You say that people should respect how others play but then imply that wanting to 3 star all of the abyss floors is somehow the inferior way of having fun.
People like you sure love to talk about respecting other players and then do the exact opposite of what you just said. Unfortunately, that behavior is rampant across the majority of this community, and this shit flinging contest will never end because people like you can't help but to start shit.
Respect is earned and I'm not obligated to respect you when you disrespect me.
@@youraverageguy4930 First and foremost, never had I the intention to disrespect you nor to imply "your fun is inferior" to anyone in that matter. So I will say that I'm sorry if it came across that way.
As for the context of what I said and the quote:
bwaap challenged the spiral abyss floor 9-11 (hopefully reaching floor 12) only using the Traveler, Amber, Lisa, and Kaeya. Three of them featured in the WNOP video, which is not far from saying that they are "bad". Even so, he said that he was having fun. The same as anyone who main any of those three. Why would someone have fun using something "bad"? What is "bad"? Is it really bad "bad"? Welp, everyone have THEIR OWN take.
Just want to emphasize that point.
I think the main issue with “weaker” supports, is a lot of their problems stem from Bennett himself. Both in the fact that by him being ridiculously overtuned they look even worse in comparison, but also because mihoyo is clearly trying to dial back on the mistake that was Bennett and Xingqiu.
They didn’t realize at launch how unreasonably broken these characters would end up being and it put them in a bad spot, if they release more 4 stars at that power level they will power creep other older 4 stars even more than they already are, so their solution is to release focused niche characters to work in varying contexts to give them value even over 5 stars in certain comps but still feel like 4 stars and on average be weaker than most 5 stars.
The ideal solution to fix both the Bennett issue and peoples complaints at newer 4 stars being weak would be to nerf Bennett and Xingqiu but if they did that, the player base would cause the biggest riot. So they’re stuck now with a character who’s strength is overall harmful to the state of the game with no way around it.
So in my opinion I think the weaker supports are fine, I think adding characters with a focus on fun or unique play styles is more important than releasing more meta supports. Xinyan is weak but her gameplay and kit to me is more interesting than the meta characters.
I think this game would benefit more from encouraging experimentation and having people use different types of characters and teams. It’s overall very easy to get a simple build of a character done.
I actually find it funny that Vars as a League player never touched on the topic of nerfing extensively. In Dota 2, even the most insignificant characters gets some nerfs time and again (one who became a meme in the community for this is Crystal Maiden for the amount of nerfs she's gotten for consecutive patches) and quite a lot of overperformers get the nerf hammer when the meta gets stale (tower destroying specialists got nerfed after the TI3 win of Alliance, and Monkey King bringing a plane of toxic waste on his release being nerfed to a point where he became useless for a while).
And I actually find it difficult why the community itself is surprisingly adverse to buffing older units, especially the really low-usage ones. The pessimists aside, some people never really elaborate why buffing is not possible/illogical. A mode that also gets them up to speed should be considered too (since some of them are pretty cheap to build)
There's a lot of factors into why a support is bad, or why they're good. I'll give you some examples
Xinyan is bad because her kit is badly designed, and her niche is bad. Physical damage in general is rather lackluster because it lacks good supports and synergy. Xinyan would be the best support if her kit wasn't badly designed. She gives you physical damage bonus, physical resistance shred, a shield so you don't get interrupted while doing NAs, and she has a physical burst with good damage. Even if she's pyro that doesn't actually pose a problem since that just means she's better with Bennett for the pyro resonance.
However: Her shield sucks because not only does it have a long cooldown, but it also scales off defense. This is literally the only part of her kit that scales off defense, which is ridiculous. The fact that you have to choose between a good burst vs a good shield completely tanks her utility. If they had made her physical part of her burst scale off defense, then she'd be a lot better. Another thing is that to access her parts it's dependant on her shield, from being protected to hitting the original attack, and her shield sucks because you usually don't want defense. Yet another issue she has is that she generates very little particles, and there's no space in physical teams to run her with Bennett. Her kit is lackluster, she suffers from 4 character syndrome, and her niche is pretty bad
Kuki is bad because she has virtually no niche. The only thing that she can bring to the table is electro healing, which is a nonexistent niche. Everything else is covered by another Unit. Not to mention the problems in her kit like her abysmally low scaling, and the fact she's the one who often needs healing.
Heizhou is bad because he gets completely outclassed by Sucrose in every single way. He's a complete downgrade and doesn't provide anything that Sucrose can't do better. They went too hard on his skill, the rest of his kit got completely neglected
Had to disagree on Heizou. Worse than Sucrose does not mean he's bad. He's a fun and viable alternative and does his job fine. Just because a unit is better does not mean another is bad. Besides Heizou deals way more damage on his own than Sucrose could ever do, which basically adds to the teams total dps anyway. Just my two cents. Other points you make on Xinyan and Kukiare pretty solid.
@@ra6765 my point isn't that he's a bad unit because of something his kit lacks (although he does have flaws), but rather because a unit exists that can do everything he can better. In a vacuum, units like Sara or Heizhou aren't bad even though their kits have flaws. However, another unit already exists that does the same thing they can do and even better (Sucrose, Bennett) which makes their usage rate drop a lot.
Even in the fact that he deals more damage is only theoretically speaking since in practice that's not the case. He lacks CC which means he can't effectively swirl multiple enemies, especially considering his charge attacks's AOE isn't very good, so his EM build is worse. Even if you build him Crit, she deals more damage because Swirl is too strong for him to keep up with the huge downtime of his E and his horrible AA scaling. He is really mediocre which hurts him because an outstanding unit exists.
sasn't heizou DPS?
@@leojustice3367 fair points but again, a better unit existing does not mean a unit is bad otherwise no other pyro other than Hu Tao would be relevant as a dps and Ayaka is the only good Cryo dps while another godly option in Ganyu exists. Heizou is a very minor downgrade to the point of him being almost a sidegrade from Sucrose in which they both fulfill the same role with minor differences in actual output. In the end Sucrose is still better for swirling numbers wise but he isn't bad or mediocre. He is one of the better 4 stars we received in a while. He is very versatile being an anemo catalyst, jacks up good dmg numbers on his own with full stack punch along with a minor EM buff on a relatively low cooldown on top of buffing his teammates' damage with swirl-VV and decent enough CC with C2. He fits so well into many team comps and can serve as a second Sucrose for your second abyss team if you dont have Kazuha (which I dont). Sure if you only need one Sucrose his usage drops.. or at least from those who only look from efficient viewpoint only, but he is far from mediocre or bad - he is among the upper echelons of 4 stars. On top of that, he is tons and tons more fun than Sucrose with his unique hand to hand mechanics - though this is entirely subjective.
On that note, someone I would consider mediocre is the likes of Razor, Yanfei, and Ningguang because they only fulfill one role as dps and demand the team to be built around them instead of the other way around, but with the proper setup they can be a beast. Still, a dps can go so far, and their 5 star counterparts are infintely better than they are. And "bad" is what I would consider Thoma, Kuki, and Xinyan is.
Kuki is built for Dendro since her Electro application is insane. Heizou isn't bad at all he plays exactly like how a Ningguang or a Yanfei would, he provides 4-star Main DPS damage, you could never go wrong with him since the only difference he has from Sucrose is that his personal damage is way higher than hers but does less for the team.
The only thing that drastically change throughout the game was bennett and ttds. Because of bennett many things had been change and also with ttds it made the whole roster of catalyst user supports. It was quite alot not only ingame mechanics but also player expectations.
Making most if not all atk stats made least of priority if you have those 2.
I like how hoyoberse is making up to it by making most dendro of dendro reactions are em based "
TTDS is a fucking Meme im sorry, because it has a long as cooldown beeing a 3 Star Weapon. It's only really for Showcases.
@@chaosinfernoid9008 even it has a long cooldown, anything can happened within 10 secs of 48% atk buff, it was used it tazer team it also used in mono freeze with ayaka snapshot with her burst or xiangling with national team with sucrose. So anything can happened withing that 10sec time span.
To be honest, Barbara is good for me as someone who doesn't have a nimble fingers. When i need the heal, she's there. i usually just go back and forth between 2 characters for element reactions. not four characters rotation. i can't do that. lol
honestly, they should make other game modes to boost some units viability. The only endgame content we have now is abyss which is a race againts time-type of game which then encourage you to use units that can deal damage and/or support buffing unit. If they make gamemodes where survivability is they key point, units like healers will become much more relevant for sure
Barbara. I feel so bad for Barbara. I love her so much and she NEVER leaves my overworld team, she was my 3rd character to get max ascended and I've used her so much she's leveled herself up to nearly level 83. But I just can't justify using her in abyss anymore and that's just so sad. The last time I was able to use her was when there was a pyro aura. Her healing is fantastic but that's just all she can do. I can't justify farming a brand new clam set either since even with that she won't provide enough to my best teams. I'm stuck in vv domain forever anyways as an anemo lover so she's still getting artifact upgrades with her maidens set. Hopefully I can get more cons for her as I'm only on c3 now, I still love Barbara and don't plan to stop using her in the overworld.
13:23 okay, Yun Jin or Gorou, sure, but Beidou? Beidou is a primary off-field damage dealing consideration for any team that isn't explicitly against using electro.
its hard to diversify because of the resources, theres a lot to farm just to make one character usable. even at 60/70, and 6-6-6 talents, it's still a lot of resin.
There's only one point I semi-disagree with.
As someone who just recently entered the late-game phase of Genshin and remembers being a new player - I believe that the characters are in fact designed with the idea that they'll be paired with certain other characters.
I wanted so badly to use Xiangling back then because her burst animation is amazing and everyone in the gesnhin community won't shut up about her... Issue is - I didn't have Bennett and the only other pyro character I had was Amber.
I got Thoma eventually but I hadn't even unlocked Inazuma - and his ascension material is literally on the very last island that you unlock in the game to-date.
Rosaria is quite different as she's capable of generating particles and she can fuel her burst on her own.
I was personally of the school of thought that devs should make characters that are primarily able to work on their own and then see what combos the community comes up with.
Now, with a deeper understanding of Genshin, I'm not so sure where I stand anymore.
Suffice to say, as someone who JUST got Bennett THIS PATCH, Xiangling is definitely a character that heavily desires that pairing and it's hard to argue that she was made without having specific pairings in mind. I have used Xiangling with Thoma to this day and while he can work, you need a heavy dose of copium to to play them together.
Wait, u dont need bennet to xiangling, its just the community that says u need bennet with xiangling, its not important
@@sleeper5905 xiangling was probably balanced around the idea that 1, you wont have enough attack to make her damage to explode and that her burst uptime would be hard to obtain due to energy demands. bennet makes her ignore both of those
@@harryfox3681 But its not like she is "important" to be with him, and xiangling can get rid of those problems without benny too
This is actually the biggest reason why I found it difficult to buy into the Xiangling hype (especially the ones who keep saying that she's better than Diluc and Yoimiya). Diluc is functional even with just Kaeya (a free unit), and is far less clunky than people make him out to be. Not to mention he doesn't have energy issues (like at all) and just needs a couple of EM rolls on top of decent crits and he's good to go. Bennett might spice up his damage, but he is heavily debilitated by Circle Impact if that's the case (plus I don't even have Bennett).
I have Xiangling with a relatively dismal build currently (and at C6) but I rarely use her outside of being a Pyro support/off-field applier
Some characters are just messed up, xinyan having damage split into pyro and physical and her scaling split into atk and def is the best example, but there are other things like sara which is insanely clunky to play just like lisa, there is also qiqi that only heals meanwhile diona Shields, heals, produces lots of energy and at C6 gives a fat EM buff, besides characters that barely work or feel bad to play there are also characters that are really underwhelming like kuki or sayu
Another great video, keep up the good work!
One thing you missed on the "convenience and comfort" of using just a few characters for everything, the game inadvertently encourages this by making it a real grind to raise up a character and their equipment. It also stands as a discouragement to building in versatility to a given character by making alternate equipment sets for them to use them in different ways. Given how mind numbing boring it is to get one really good artifact set for a character it is entirely understandable that players would tend to not make alternate sets, and the limited resin system often forces players to choose between making sure they have 2 really well worked up parties for Spiral and having more variety of characters that would even be eligible to be used in Spiral. So this is NOT simply a case of players being 'lazy' or just doing what is comfortable. Case example for me: I have invested A LOT into building Kokomi for Taser Teams for Spiral. Dendro comes along when I was in the process of finishing leveling up Traveler on Anemo... So I start switching Traveler over to Dendro. This process is not finished yet, I still have not finished Traveler Anemo, I also recently got Kazuha who I am leveling up. So to leave these characters unfinished to DISCARD a fully worked up set for Kokomi to make Kokomi an EM focused set for a bloom composition strikes me as.... shooting myself in the foot. i.e. the game FORCES us to make a lot of very hard choices.
Honestly, I like it when there’s a large variety of support units. This way after seeing their design, voice, personality, and weapon, I can then choose who I like (example: I don’t use Bennet or Xingqiu, tho I used Xing for a short bit only cause he was like the only hydro I had until Mona…and I don’t like Barb lol) and go about my day.
If only Xynian phys damage burst scaled with defense she could be a def scaling shielder, burst DPS, noblesse user, pyro res enabler, phys shredder and buffer all in one, and when you get her C6 she could be a DPS due to the def scaling. They really missed an opportunity to make a good character with only one change
That moment when you’d love to switch supports but your broke ass can’t afford any new characters.
I’m AR 34, nearly 35, but I’ve been using roughly the same team comp since I started playing: Noelle DPS and shield, Barbara healing and hydro infusion, Chongyun sub DPS and freezing with E, and the last spot is usually switched out between battles depending on which element is needed, and which reactions are most effective. I usually place Xiangling for melt, Yun Jin for geo resonance (and just because she’s pretty and I love her) and Heizou if it’s absolutely necessary.
My only strategy is 1. Noelle’s shield 2. Barbara’s E 3. Get close to the enem(ies) and use chongyun’s E 4. Switch back to Noelle and beat the sh- 5. If it’s a tough boss fight, I’ll usually bring out Xianglings Q, or guoba at this point
Edit: It’s been about 2 ish weeks since I posted this and I’ve changed my team comp quite a bit during the last little while, so I thought that I’d give an update
I’ve gotten my first ever five star, Qiqi and got many other characters such as fischl and sucrose. I’ve been focused on inazuma quests and world exploration as I am a slow, casual player. Currently (as of AR39) my team comp consists of 1. Noelle DPS, shield and bonus healing 2. Qiqi healer, cryo infusion 3. Chongyun support, cryo infusion 4. Fischl sub dps, superconduct and overload. (The 4th slot changes often either to xiangling or sucrose, but I don’t really have a use for sucrose currently. It may also switch to yun Jin for geo resonance for a Noelle damage boost)
I’m sure no one gives a shit, but it’s fun to write down to compare strength