Baptists allowing Paedobaptists into Membership? Joe Rigney joins Beer & Psalms - Psalm 47
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- Опубліковано 6 сер 2024
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“Valid but not Proper Baptisms” More Discussion w/ Joe Rigney
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This was very helpful. I grew up in a IFB church and was batized at 18 because I knew my mother wanted me to get batized as I had been "saved" at summer camp when I was 11. When I actually came to faith in Christ at 39 I didn't feel the need to be baptized again. I felt like it was a real baptism. Given that, listening to Joe articluate an improper but valid standard was heartwarming.
A very enlightened guest!
An important point-Presbyterian churches would admit a credo baptist into membership. The mode is not an issue either. They also baptize believers as well as covenant children. So one side has it right and they don’t add “improper” or any such language to a believer’s immersion when a Baptist joins their church. Just sayin’😁
I just took and ecclesiology class earlier this year at a Baptist seminary and was faced with this issue of allowing paedoaptists into membership. When the issue came up for an assignment I initially agreed with the class consensus that I would not let them in, but after considering how much in common we have, and as an Joe Rigney said, two out of the four pieces of baptism are there, why would I not Allow them membership? Having a wider door for membership and a more narrow door for eldership I think is wise and biblical. Pastor Rigney put so many of the thoughts I’ve been having since May of this year into words and categories that were easy to understand. Lord willing, when I am in ministry, i’ll be referring back to this video to glean some more!
i love you guys...i love Joe Rigney
Another example of valid but improper (in a different category) would be if a couple of unbiblically divorced people who subsequently married each other then get saved. That couple’s marriage is a true marriage, even though it was entered into sinfully. They shouldn’t separate now; they should seek to honor God with their current spouse. Neither do they need to get “re-married”; it counts.
Marriage! Scripture warns us not to marry to unbelievers but some brothers and sisters do. They take the oath and vows before God. The Marriage is improper but valid.
did you guys know that New Belgium (fat tire) is a notoriously pro el gee bee tee que company? why y'all drinking it? get some local, God loving beer company beer in Idaho. I bet there are plenty of great beers around there....oh yeah, where's Jason?
Name a few beers, we'll check them out. Jason is still where we said last time - Knox Unplugged w/ Jason Farley!
@@CROSSPOLITIC oh but he's never on the podcasts that he should be on, is he, given his partisan Presbyterianism? Given the beards, I think you guys are quite capable of finding some good Idahoer beers.
Sacramental minimalism is a denial of the RPW.
Modern open baptist have an inconsistent plea to baptismal precision while affirming open membership and accepting “irregular” baptisms.
The discomfort rises from -professing- Christian’s butchering the doctrine of baptism that directly effects the church as an institution.
In short, his position, these are my buddies and I want them to be institutionally affirmed yet they don’t meet institutional requirements. Let’s accept the bare minimum that we’d think would please Christ in spite of his clarity and robust revelation.
The Scattering Of His Sheep
There have been many points of division within the Church past and present; some of these necessary, some unnecessary, some righteous, and some a most sinful offense. My focus is not on division over primary doctrines, doctrines such as Justification by Faith Alone, the Trinity, or the Inerrancy of Scripture, as these are essential to the Christian faith; one would find themselves outside orthodoxy if they held wrong belief in or denied such doctrines. In matters such as these, division is not only prudent but necessary. But the division over secondary and tertiary matters, such as the frequency of the Lord's Supper ex. weekly vs monthly, spiritual or real presence in the elements, the Lutheran literal view (Not Transubstantiation), or Credo vs Paedo baptism. Although these matters are of much importance, refusal to commune with brethren who differ on such matters is an egregious and sinful division of the Bride of Christ.
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mark 10:9
The point of division I would like to focus on is the Credo/Paedo divide, as it seems to be the most prominent point of such division in our day. For the most part, this division only cuts one way the Credobaptist denies communion with the Paedobaptist. When speaking of communion, I am not just speaking of the Lord's Supper, but of full communion and fellowship with other brothers and sisters in Christ. Among Credobaptists, there are differing levels of this division and denial of communion.
Some will flat-out proclaim the baptizing of infants a heresy.
Some will not be so bold as to call it heresy but will deny the Lord's Supper and admittance into membership.
Others will allow the partaking of the Lord's Supper and even allow some semblance of fellowship but still will deny membership into the church.
All three of these categories, in their denial of membership, ultimately share in the belief that if one does not hold to credobaptism, they are outside the faith. Therefore, the paedobaptist is not a brother or sister in Christ, thus a Heretic. Rather than commune with a brother, the Credobaptist would rather bind the conscience and force re-baptism as the Anabaptists of the Radical Reformation. Though this time not by physical violence, but still very much a violence, a spiritual one perpetuated on the soul.
The God ordained purpose of the Church is the administration of Word and Sacrament, admonishment and correction of the Saints, not the division over secondary matters. In matters such as these, we should seek unity within the Bride, while still recognizing their importance. We must not cause the weaker brother to stumble while at the same time not allowing the tyranny of the weaker brother to rule. We see an example of the first, in Acts 16 when Paul circumcises Timothy in order not to cause the weaker brother to stumble and to avoid division in the early church. Then, in Galatians 2, we see a more mature church, but a church in which the weaker brother sought to tyrannize the church. Some within the church sought to mandate circumcision when a physical circumcision is no longer required. Paul recognized this and refused to circumcise Titus. We see much the same tyranny from the credobaptist in the requirement of re-baptism for admittance into fellowship and communion. They act as though they hold ultimate control over the keys to the Kingdom in similar fashion to that of the Papacy in the time of the Reformers; they deny faith where there is faith, they deny fruit where there is fruit. While it is true the Church not only has a responsibility but a duty to remove the wolves from the midst of the sheep, it does not have the right to divide the sheep, whether spotted from unspotted or unspotted from spotted. While we scatter the sheep the wolves devour, the wicked pursue, we aid the enemy. Shepherds would do well to heed the Lord's warning.
“Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!” declares the LORD. Therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning the shepherds who care for my people: “You have scattered my flock and have driven them away, and you have not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for your evil deeds, declares the LORD. Then I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their fold, and they shall be fruitful and multiply. I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, declares the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:1-4
The Credo/Paedo divide is a centuries-old point of the division that we must no longer allow to come between brethren but seek ecumenism within Christian orthodoxy. Saints can and will have differences in doctrine and understanding. We have these differences within our own traditions and our own individual church bodies. If divided, we can not effectively war against principalities and powers when we war with our brethren or cast them out to be devoured. What need more the devil do to divide the Christ's Bride when the shepherds have done it for him?
In closing, let us seek to live in harmony with one another, in accordance with Christ Jesus.
May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.
Romans 15:5-7
-Chris Roy
9:38 What pray tell, are the other "host of issues" you are willing to finesse in order to have a "wider door" for church membership? And why do the clergy/elders have a different set of "affirmations" then the laity? Is this where Baptists are heading -- nascent priest craft?
You do need to be baptized…as a professing believer. The time you got a bath as a baby was just that…a bath 🤷♂️
wowwwwwwwww fellas, way to push a Desiring God article that's not about the issue at hand..actually the article is from July so perhaps they should have discussed it instead before letting Jason say the quiet part out loud to all of the baptists who have been trying to partner with Presbys. Toby has a pretty hypocritical thing to say about baptism not working out as a secondary issue when CP and some guy who is AWOL (Jason, where is he???) just treated arminian-finneyist-decionist baptist theology as a 1st tier issue (it creates the tr@nn-ees, don't ya know?). Y'all keep getting sadder and sadder and sadder. Smile :D