It's real nice to get a reminder that everyone is speaking a diverse array of languages and that there are gaps like any technology (when he catches the grammatical use of his speech that couldn't be captured in the translation.)
Also says a lot about the Federation's complacent mindset, that they've gotten so accustomed to using automated translation as a crutch, it never even occurs to them to have negotiators at a top-level diplomatic summit who can understand and parse the language the enemy diplomats are speaking in. Makes you think that the real reason these mutants could come up with such amazing insights isn't that they're genetically altered supergeniuses, it's that they've been kept carefully isolated from Federation society, and therefore simply haven't yet been indoctrinated into the idiocy of Starfleet ways of thinking... so basically these guys are all Scott Evil from Austin Powers.
@@jamesboulger8705 I mean anyone who's ever worked as a translator can tell you there's no such thing as perfect translation, every language has expressions that are difficult if not impossible to express in an equivalent way in other languages, and translation always involves trade-offs between all sorts of layers of meaning and intelligibility, not to mention all the artistic concerns involved in properly translating a work of literature or rhetoric or (God forbid) poetry or music. Obviously an automatic universal translation device like "instant Google Translate" or something would be an incredible tool for frontline personnel who deal with all kinds of languages and peoples on a daily basis, but an important diplomatic summit like this would still be full of diplomatic aides fluent in all the relevant languages, with further teams of analysts trained in "Dominion studies" or "Cardassian studies" to parse over any recordings with a fine toothed comb, so unless the DS9 writers actually were trying to criticize the Federation's complacency, it's absurd to assume that a government like the Federation would need to turn to a group of mutant outcasts for something as obvious as parsing the basic syntax of a widely-spoken foreign language.
There's a massive inconsistency with the Universal Translators though. How do people hear Worf speak both Common and Klingon with universal translators active?
Most of their analyses were spot on, though. The relations between the Dominion and Cardassians did erode. And the Romulans likely would've abandoned the non-aggression pack if Sisko hadn't forced their hand earlier. What they weren't accounting for was the son of a Prophet being in command of DS9.
If you ignore the Prophets, everything *would* have been spot-on. That was the factor they were unaware of that caused them to come to the conclusion they did. At that time, given the information available, their analysis WAS correct.
@@virt1one the prophets had already interfered. this is after the minefield was brought down. what really accelerated matters was Sisko bringing the Romulans in far earlier then they would naturally have, the plague on the founders, the founders bringing in the Breen which caused stress on the cardies causing Damor to rebel, several people coming into various positions on the side of the federation that would be wild cards such as Garak, Martok, Gowron being killed by Worf causing Martok to be chancellor and head of the klingon side of the war. the problem with predications is that being aware of the predication can alter its very nature if you are a listed part or can be involved in the predication of the future
LOL. Oh, you can never factor in *everything* !; They say "God is in the details". I, for one, think it is more like "God's Hand". Anyway, a wise person once said if you let a complex system run several times, something unexpected is bound to happen.
Well they also thought that the Dominion wouldn't destroy earth and that would allow a resistance to eventually build up. It was exactly the fear of such a rebellion, that was the reason they would have destroyed Earth.
One thing I like here is that the Jack Pack are all approaching this in different ways. Jack is digging into the flow of events and structure of language. Patrick is staring very closely at tiny details Lauren is passively watching the whole thing for a good strategic overview. Sarina is off doing something else that proves important.
It’s my opinion that augments like them were make the Federation invincible. Forget obsolete 20th century augments. A future federation would overrun the galaxy if most people were augmented.
Sarina's the quiet one, correct? I believe she may have heard a particular tidbit in the conversation then started working on her chemical analysis, ignoring everything else.
The best part about this is that all of this stuff actually wound up happening. The Romulans DID abandon the non-aggression pact, and tensions between the Dominion and Cardassia DID erupt.
Absolutely! The only big thing missing from Julian's calculations was the disease the Founders caught. It wasn't just a small fluctuation that could "factor out over time". It was an unexpected but key factor in producing a positive outcome for the Federation. Otherwise, I suspect Julian would have been correct. Projections can't factor in everything.
@@LtFoodstamp It could have given Section 31 an idea though. Small fluctuations would get missed, so make the right small change, nobody notices it, and it changes the future
But not for the reasons the mutants expected. The Romulans abandoned the non-aggression pact, not out of some organic change in political attitudes, but because Sisko tricked them. The Dominion and Cardassians experienced internal tensions, not because of a naturally growing schism, but because the Founder made a secret alliance with the Breen that marginalized Cardassia's role in the Dominion. The only piece of analysis which was worth anything was the discovery of why the Dominion agreed to a repositioning of the border. Everything else was sheer conjecture masked by sophisticated mathematics.
As a trained pol/mil analyst, the biggest mistake this group made is declaring what _will_ happen. You always inform decisionmakers what MIGHT happen. It is their job to decide how to act upon that information.
That was the whole point of the episode. They convinced Bashir they were absolutely correct, and he was absolutely determined to act upon that information. In the end, they learned that exact lesson.
Bashir said that they aren't exactly qualified for this kind of work. There's a reason they included that in the dialogue. Bashir understands humility, unlike the others.
Especially since we don’t see anything other than quirky people with just normal human abilities ramped up to eleven. I’m thinking of the Foundation universe and psychohistory, something like that would genuinely change the calculus but we don’t have it here.
@@DemonofLight80 I have several handheld devices because it's easier to do cross comparative lookups that way. Similar idea to multi-monitor setups. Why use one monitor when you can have two or more.
"According to our analysis some Federation dissident will stage a fake Dominon assassination on a high ranking Romulan, possibly an ambassador or Senator, which will bring them into the war"
What the Dr. was talking about, the farther you go into the future the more accurate the projection sounds like 'Psychohistory' that Harry Sheldon used in the Foundation series written by Issac Asimov. With him the larger the population the more accurate the projection.
Of course as the episode points out, that theory often overlooks the butterfly affect that even a single person can cause, upending the whole projection.
@@williamcostigan91 which is incredibly super rare to the point its often not worth considering. of course you have to redo your projections once you do them since its possible you can alter things to a certain degree
If you've played Star Trek Online, then you realize that Jack has the basic right of Dominion strategic thinking, just not the scale. In STO, you learn that the Founders' ability to study and adapt both science and strategy can reach back Millenia.
Jack's smart but but still limited by his human experience. Just like Khan and 3D combat. Jack and most humans can't really comprehend planning for longer than a human can be alive (let alone in charge).
Yeahhhhh, IDK what all this nerd mumbo jumbo means but last night I had sex with a woman and I'm pretty sure that's not something ANY of you have experienced.
@@Mourtzouphlos240 yep, that gives them a fundamentally different approach to everything. Plus, they're also capable of operating as a hive-mind, which is another completely transformative way of thinking. It's kinda like series vs. parallel processing. Humans mostly exist in the former, species like the Borg mostly exist in the latter, while the Founders can freely access both. Heck of an advantage. It's no surprise why they owned an entire quadrant, and it's frankly a miracle that the Alpha quadrant folks managed to defeat them.
@@herbderbler1585 But they were right about the Dominion thinking in a much bigger scale than the federation. They were willing to do a war of attrition due to the fact that their troops were battle ready in a few years; not decades.
@@guyincognito8440 Well, at least one of them is a violent psychopath for one thing. But mainly because they’ve been treated like broken mutants all their lives and the wonderfully utopian Federation didn’t know how to empower them to use their abilities.
@@theevilascotcompany9255 it should be noted that most of these guys were made via very _bad_ gene-techs, not all of them had the gene-tech that Bashir had, while the Augments were during the pioneer days of gene-tech.
They were right, the Romulans do enter the war (though it ends up happening via Sisko and Garak coaxing them to earlier than the projection probably), and internal pressures between the Dominion and Cardissans do erupt
Those aren't hard things to predict though. Obviously the Dominion and Cardies would eventually clash, because the Dominion was never about sharing or giving power. Just look at the gamma quadrant, the Dominion ran it like a totalitarian mafia. The only deal that could be made with the Dominion was to obey, and the Cardassians were a self important people who believed they were superior to all. The Romulans entering the war was likely too, since the Romulans would have known that instead of facing a bunch of different factions, they would be facing one consolidated enemy, and the Romulans very much want to do things their way. It's just that the Romulans were petty and selfish and liked seeing the Federation getting its butts kicked. Unlike Vulcans, Romulans were driven by emotion. But there's other factors. The Romulans didn't know if the federation would ultimately lose, their hopes would be that at the very least, the Federation would be severely weakened, giving the Romulans greater power. The Cardassians were petty too, only joining the Dominion out of rage for the previous war with the Federation. Truth be told, the Federation was always the most powerful faction, it's just that they didn't wield that power with an iron fist. The Federation could have wiped out Cardassians and the Romulans if they wanted., albeit at a high cost. But for the Dominion, especially with clone armies, no cost was too high. Especially since the founders were long lived and didn't particularly care if the places they were conquering were ashes by the time they controlled them.
@@peoplez129 The Romulans were weakened by a crippled Tal Shiar after their loss at the Omarian Nebula. They wanted to see the Dominion threat eliminated as well, but were in no position to go to war. They signed the non-aggression pact because they knew they were in no position to go to war and were willing to give the Klingons and the Federation a bloody nose hoping their long time rivals and the Dominion would be weak from all the fighting after time that the Romulans can come in and take over the Alpha Quadrant themselves.
I love that they go on to project that the rebellion against the Dominion would start on Earth, and Weyoun makes the exact same prediction for a victory scenario eventually and contemplates obliterating the entire planet to guard against the possibility.
It's not a difficult prediction. Earth is very far from any dominion ally and is populated by dozens of different species that have lived in a democracy.
@The Cornfield They saved his program since he became self-aware and had professed that he was a changed man. Given the changes the computer implemented with La Forge's request to make an opponent for him in the Holmesian style that could confound and possibly defeat Data as Holmes, and the fact that prior to this he was a villain, his intellect and insight could prove valuable. They could implement him as some sort Hologram similar to the EMH in Voyager, even give him a portable holo-emitter.
The Enterprise-D was destroyed before the Dominion War though. No telling (not talking about the books, just the storyline shown on TV/film) if after the crash of the saucer section that the memory cube box they put the holocharacter Moriarty in in the episode Ship in a Bottle was in the Engineering Section when it was vaporized by the warp core explosion (quite possibly, since they would want to keep it stored in an area of the ship with quick access to maintenance, if the memory cube or extended memory device they put the cube into needed maintenance) and/or in the saucer section, but was damaged during the crash, not knowing if they kept it or just destroyed it. They did do a variation of the Moriarty storyline though with DS9, with Vic, the hologram who is aware of his existence as a hologram.
For all Moriarty knows he's exploring the galaxy with his lady love right now. Leave him be. Unless of course his simulator was destroyed or damaged when the Enterprise D was destroyed by the Duras sisters. I wonder about that sometimes. That might be an interesting story for the Star Trek Picard series. Picard stumbles into a turf war between the Orion Syndicate and some new criminal organization. After a bit of sleuthing he discovers that somebody found Moriarty's simulator, got him out and put him on a mobile holo emitter, and Moriarty went on to do what he does best. He's very offended that Picard first tried to trick him, and then left him to "die".
@@Commanderziff what makes people think the memory cube was kept on Enterprise and not put in some secret starfleet facility for study and to keep secure?
It's a matter of perception, but it's like a microscope or tunnel vision. Once they have their understanding in sight, they go into it full bore, but at the expense of what's going on around them, or rather turning out what's around them.
A stereotype of the old and tired "savant-syndrome, non-functional but actually genius" neurodivergence. As a neurodivergent myself, this entire arc hurts me to my core because it perpetuates the tired Rain-man mythos, but in spite of that, I still enjoy DS9 and even this section of episodes. They didn't know better back then, and perpetuating old, harmful stereotypes was just...the norm back then. Star Trek has always done its best to *not* do that, and that's the main reason why I forgive this. They simple didn't know better.
The mutants were right, but not for the reasons the mutants expected. The Romulans abandoned the non-aggression pact, not out of some organic change in political attitudes, but because Sisko tricked them. The Dominion and Cardassians experienced internal tensions, not because of a naturally growing schism, but because the Founder made a secret alliance with the Breen that marginalized Cardassia's role in the Dominion. The only piece of analysis which was worth anything was the discovery of why the Dominion agreed to a repositioning of the border. Everything else was sheer conjecture masked by sophisticated mathematics.
Sisko knew the Romulans had to get involved. he knew he had to accelerate their coming in. without the Jack pack predications he likely would never have involved Garak to get the Romulans involved. There was a natural growing schism that would have eventually grown into rebellion on Cardassia Prime. Dukat after all had done the alliance with the Dominion with the plan to overthrown the Dominion when the time was right. Since Sisko had brought in the Romulans earlier then predicated the Founder was forced to get allies.
Indeed. The predictions pointed to a potential path for Federation victory if things went that way, but the federation needed to move the timescale forward on those events. The Romulans coming in early greatly strengthens the federation position and forces the dominion to weaken their position with the cardasians, leading to a sooner rebellion and the faster defeat of the dominion. All only possible if the federation delay their hand over of 1 system until they get everything in place for a while... just long enough to get things set up. Otherwise, they risk losing the alpha quadrant completely.
They were almost right because, as realized at the end, they didn’t take all the variables into account. Leaving one of their own out resulted in miscalculations. They were not obvious until their projections painted a more extreme outcome and timetable.
DS9 has such a beautiful way of showing how mental “disabilities” can actually have a huge and important way of looking at things. People see things in different ways, yes sometimes that’s dangerous. But sometimes it beautiful. And intelligent, which must be respected.
@@eparigon Whatever their "disabilities" are, it won't detract from the fact that they're still extremely intelligent and capable of doing things that most disabled people wouldn't be able to do.
Yeah Hillary Shepard Turner did a lot with body language alone to convey how "alien" Lauren is. She moves completely differently from literally everything else
I'm thinking probably that the reason why the genetic altering was botched on these people is because they had mental health issues prior to the surgery that were either too subtle, or never disclosed to the surgeon. So when the procedure was complete, their senses, strength, agility and intelligence were in fact enhanced, but so were the mental health problems.
the surgeons were black market. no quality assurance. like plastic surgeries on the black market you may either get a competent doctor who is doing additional work on the sly (very rare) or a hack who will use quick dry cement as filler for a butt check implant.
@ElfNerd - Not necessarily. The Ballance of genetics to physiology is very complex and intricate. You could either make effective changes that would alter _many factors_ in all kinds of great and small, subtle ways, Or more likely, any changes you make would have _no effect_ on the final structure of the complete organism, at all. Changing an organism _just a little_ by changing its genetics would be VERY difficult and how to do that would be very obscure and ambiguous.
@@blawson3603 Julian's parents went to a non fed world renowned for the quality of its surgeons and that guaranteed privacy. so probably not cheap and they took the time to find such a world.
A good part of the problem was and is because of the way genes work in us. Intelligence isn't a single cluster on the X or Y chromosome, but a whole bunch of little ones. They all factor in to relative intelligence. ...Unfortunately, a number of those IQ gene groups are also tied into different aspects of neurological development and function and behavioral programming; by tweaking the gene groups to increase IQ, the genetic hack doctors accidentally made them very neurodivergent.
When discussing them I think the implication was that their cases were the same as Bashir, their parents got them enhanced it wasn't their choice they just live with the consequences. So if there were any underling problems it would have been up to the parents to communicate them.
the best part about this scene, is if you listen closely he is about to predict the cardassian rebellion, which in fact is exacly how the war went. credit where credit is due, their prediction was accurate, but they don't understand the value of freedom, as they never had it, which is why they rebelled on the notion that the war had to go on.
One thing this episode of always highlighted was the fact that iPad equivalent technology in their time is equal to manila folders with packets of information in are’s
I used to work with somebody like Jack. One time he wanted to do something and the supervisor said no. This guy ran to his computer and said okay I won't do it this is what I'm going to do. The supervisor said no no don't do that and then told him to do what he originally wanted to do. There was even a slight resemblance. By the way this guy was smarter than the average person.
Each of them is a savant, but they all seem to have different disorders. For example, the multilingual one seems to be affected by some form of Tourette's at a cursory glance. The one who made the chemical analysis of the fungus looks like she is a nonverbal form of autistic, though.
almisami Yeah; I think I see that. It’s just interesting this was the effort to get positive visibility or allegories in pop culture of the 90’s on issues decades ago, that we didn’t know what those brain differences were. To many back then they were just dismissed as strange. A different more positive flavor of political correctness compared to what we do nowadays. The contrast is interesting.
Spiner said something to the effect that a lot of fan mail for his character Data was from autistic people who appreciated that they could relate to his issues of not understanding human socio interactions. Spiner it was moving to hear that though they never intended it that way.
I thought for a moment it was that they think 1,10,100 years into the future - a million years, in other words. It _has_ been a while since I saw DS9...
Accurately predicting the future is an exercise in futility. There are simply far too many unforeseen variables and too few constants. The best one can hope for is an educated guess. Btw, it's 2024. Where the hell is the limitless free energy, robot servants, and flying cars we were promised?
I always thought that Starfleet could just secretly poison the planet with the ketracel white components, then trade the system away. It would buy time for them to make ships, while also sabotaging a large portion of the Jem'Hadar
True, but there is also the fact that we did avoid the worst conflicts DUE to things we did, intentional or otherwise. There are arguments that both the USA and USSR managed to avoid full out conflict by their mistakes and successes, all the while trying to figure out how to avoid all out nuclear war. Never discount the effect of people actually doing things to AVOID a certain outcome.
Funny thing is that the Romulans do enter the war and the alliance between the Dominion and the Cardassians does become strained to the point of Rebellion.
You've got to remember the time you're talking about for production. It's 1998. Laptops were only just starting to become a thing, even the idea of real touchpads was a long way off, and AOL was still lurking around.
I think that`s because the production of those pads is super cheap in the future why not having several of those especially if you want to compare things, holding 1 tablet in 1 hand and another one as well. I`d do it cause otherwise you would just need to switch tabs, that`s not that cool. But I`m sure each of this pads is capable of replacing all other tabs. If they were on vacation or so, 1 pad would be enough. But when you have them as much as you want - why not? It basically reminds me a concept of electronic newspaper from several years go
@@PassportBrosBusinessClass Windows 3.1.1 was an overlay for DOS, hardly a stellar example of multifunction, and Windows 95 wasn't much better in terms of program consolidation. There was no "tabs", even in 98. Yes, you could run multiple programs at a time, but opening documents still spawned new instances of the program that was opening it. And once again, the concept of a tablet device was so far outside any concept in the general public. Besides, it's a little funny watch Bashir do the old comedic routine of "burying the boss with reports".
1:18 Now that was just Genius! I wonder who wrote that line? Who had that idea? It seems like something Bear MacReady would think of, but it could have sat on the writer's idea board for a long time!
Did Bear work on DS9? I know Ron D. Moore did. Bear is a brilliant composer, I am not sure he is involved in writing dialogue or that he worked on DS9 in any capacity.
The abilities of the mutants to notice things an average person would miss (e.g. Patrick noticing Weyoun and Damar avoiding looking at the Capral System and deducing they want it, and Jack noticing the use of a tense used only to make a request - although I don't see the relevance of Jack's point) is believable. What is unbelievable is the conclusions they reached concerning the progress of the war from their analyses later on. At 3:47 Bashir says to Sisko "...in 3 years 6 months and 27 days...". Okay they can not only predict the future but also right to the precise DAY?" Then at 4:26 Bashir says the futher into the future they look small fluctuations would factor out so the more accurate their analyses would become. That is baloney. Small fluctuations factoring out may apply to physical systems with no sentient beings to make conscious decisions but not when dealing with people capable of making decisions.
"Since when could you speak Domionese?" -- "Since this morning." And it took me 3 years to even become comfortable with my ability to speak Mandarin Chinese. smh lol
wow, Sisko and Dr. provided this Super Humans with Military information... if i were the chosen one, i would provide them with ancient tomes for Bajoran prophecies (than classified military info). it is Challenging, questing, productive, and... most importantly... is safe toy.
well since the shapeshifter live very long, there plan make sence, PLUS they have a whole other empire behind the worm hole, in time that will incress and come after the federation.
As much as this arc hurts me as a neurodivergent (representing us as non-functional genius freaks, thus perpetuating the savant-syndrome myth), I do love the depths of the analysis they go into. It's interesting how each of them notice different things.
@@Spanner249That's what they are, in-universe. But in story-telling terms, they are "coded" as neurodivergent. They're meant to evoke autism and savant-syndrome through their awkward, non-standard behaviour.
Most of their analysis" Were speculations of a probability of futures. Of war, between the Federation & Dominion. No matter, how intelligent they were, they couldn't see the unexpected. That altered their projections.
3:10 This proposal to hand over the Cabral system, even though it was the sole source of Ketrocel White, was the first big sign the augments had completely lost sight of reality. They were unable to acknowledge that events 1, 2, or 5 years out were actually beyond their ability to predict, no matter how complex their mathematical projections were, and the simple and sound strategy of cutting an enemy off from a vital resource, even if costly, was the correct and sound strategy. In a way, their suggestion to hand over Cabral indicates their own bias. In order to flatter their own egos, they, a priori, rejected solutions that weren't overly complicated or didn't rely on wildly complex mathematical computations. They had also made perfect an enemy of the good, in that costly solutions were simply off the table, even if they were correct, because they weren't ideal.
someone asked what an autistic focused D&D game would look like, I immediately recommended this. (though in my experience: most a lot of D&D players are already on spectrum, so why bother)
They should have kept them on the station. A group of superhumans, kept under control but also protected by a near-superhuman. They didn't even need to show them so often, just every now & then Dr. Bashir informing Sisko: They projected this, they warned us not to do that, etc. I don't remember why they didn't stay or what happened to them.
They became so obsessed with their prediction of defeat, presumably correctly based on the incomplete info they had, that they actively tried to sabotage Starfleet. After that they understandably couldn't trust them fully.
Funny how Star Trek could predict we'd use tablets and handheld computers, but didn't think you could store all that info on a single datapad. Nope, Bashir must have 5-6 of the things and hand them to Sisko in person instead of just sending him the files from a single datapad to another. Good old future past.
Could be that they were running up against the computing limits of the datapads with each topic covered relegated to its own with all of its supporting information and calculations available to be drilled down into, but being too much for just one pad.
It's real nice to get a reminder that everyone is speaking a diverse array of languages and that there are gaps like any technology (when he catches the grammatical use of his speech that couldn't be captured in the translation.)
Also says a lot about the Federation's complacent mindset, that they've gotten so accustomed to using automated translation as a crutch, it never even occurs to them to have negotiators at a top-level diplomatic summit who can understand and parse the language the enemy diplomats are speaking in.
Makes you think that the real reason these mutants could come up with such amazing insights isn't that they're genetically altered supergeniuses, it's that they've been kept carefully isolated from Federation society, and therefore simply haven't yet been indoctrinated into the idiocy of Starfleet ways of thinking... so basically these guys are all Scott Evil from Austin Powers.
@@willg-r3269 haha good thought. A society like start trek would certainly require a robust socioeconomic culture.
@@jamesboulger8705 I mean anyone who's ever worked as a translator can tell you there's no such thing as perfect translation, every language has expressions that are difficult if not impossible to express in an equivalent way in other languages, and translation always involves trade-offs between all sorts of layers of meaning and intelligibility, not to mention all the artistic concerns involved in properly translating a work of literature or rhetoric or (God forbid) poetry or music.
Obviously an automatic universal translation device like "instant Google Translate" or something would be an incredible tool for frontline personnel who deal with all kinds of languages and peoples on a daily basis, but an important diplomatic summit like this would still be full of diplomatic aides fluent in all the relevant languages, with further teams of analysts trained in "Dominion studies" or "Cardassian studies" to parse over any recordings with a fine toothed comb, so unless the DS9 writers actually were trying to criticize the Federation's complacency, it's absurd to assume that a government like the Federation would need to turn to a group of mutant outcasts for something as obvious as parsing the basic syntax of a widely-spoken foreign language.
There's a massive inconsistency with the Universal Translators though.
How do people hear Worf speak both Common and Klingon with universal translators active?
是的，我们都知道.
Sisko: "You know Doctor, bringing the Romulans into the war sounds like a fine idea. On an unrelated note, do you know how Garak is doing these days?"
That reminds me, i need a new suit.
Garak is always passingly mentioned on "an unrelated note".
He's creating a new holo program titled "It's a Fake!!!"
Garak my favourite character
Bashir: You know, I think he said something about taking a stroll through the Pale Moonlight...."
Most of their analyses were spot on, though. The relations between the Dominion and Cardassians did erode. And the Romulans likely would've abandoned the non-aggression pack if Sisko hadn't forced their hand earlier.
What they weren't accounting for was the son of a Prophet being in command of DS9.
If you ignore the Prophets, everything *would* have been spot-on. That was the factor they were unaware of that caused them to come to the conclusion they did. At that time, given the information available, their analysis WAS correct.
@@virt1one the prophets had already interfered. this is after the minefield was brought down. what really accelerated matters was Sisko bringing the Romulans in far earlier then they would naturally have, the plague on the founders, the founders bringing in the Breen which caused stress on the cardies causing Damor to rebel, several people coming into various positions on the side of the federation that would be wild cards such as Garak, Martok, Gowron being killed by Worf causing Martok to be chancellor and head of the klingon side of the war.
the problem with predications is that being aware of the predication can alter its very nature if you are a listed part or can be involved in the predication of the future
LOL.
Oh, you can never factor in *everything* !;
They say "God is in the details". I, for one, think it is more like "God's Hand".
Anyway, a wise person once said if you let a complex system run several times, something unexpected is bound to happen.
Well they also thought that the Dominion wouldn't destroy earth and that would allow a resistance to eventually build up. It was exactly the fear of such a rebellion, that was the reason they would have destroyed Earth.
The Noisy Spectator
I always thought the devil is in the details
"According to our analysis, the Romulans will vote to abandon their non aggression pact."
"Hmm. Imma do you one better..."
#Hobus
One thing I like here is that the Jack Pack are all approaching this in different ways.
Jack is digging into the flow of events and structure of language.
Patrick is staring very closely at tiny details
Lauren is passively watching the whole thing for a good strategic overview.
Sarina is off doing something else that proves important.
I love how Patrick is right in the other actor’s faces, staring at them. I wonder how many takes that scene required. It can’t be easy to not laugh.
Meanwhile, in other series:
"No, you're fired."
"If I may..."
"You may not."
"But.."
"No."
It’s my opinion that augments like them were make the Federation invincible. Forget obsolete 20th century augments.
A future federation would overrun the galaxy if most people were augmented.
Sarina's the quiet one, correct? I believe she may have heard a particular tidbit in the conversation then started working on her chemical analysis, ignoring everything else.
She knew what all the elements of the system was known for
The best part about this is that all of this stuff actually wound up happening. The Romulans DID abandon the non-aggression pact, and tensions between the Dominion and Cardassia DID erupt.
Shadowkey392 Best Foreshadowing in a Series ....... after multiple rewatching you pick up even more gems like this :)
Absolutely!
The only big thing missing from Julian's calculations was the disease the Founders caught. It wasn't just a small fluctuation that could "factor out over time". It was an unexpected but key factor in producing a positive outcome for the Federation.
Otherwise, I suspect Julian would have been correct.
Projections can't factor in everything.
@@LtFoodstamp It could have given Section 31 an idea though. Small fluctuations would get missed, so make the right small change, nobody notices it, and it changes the future
That’s exactly what I was thinking when listening to this an I scrolled down the he comments to see is anyone else had realized the same thing.
But not for the reasons the mutants expected. The Romulans abandoned the non-aggression pact, not out of some organic change in political attitudes, but because Sisko tricked them. The Dominion and Cardassians experienced internal tensions, not because of a naturally growing schism, but because the Founder made a secret alliance with the Breen that marginalized Cardassia's role in the Dominion. The only piece of analysis which was worth anything was the discovery of why the Dominion agreed to a repositioning of the border. Everything else was sheer conjecture masked by sophisticated mathematics.
As a trained pol/mil analyst, the biggest mistake this group made is declaring what _will_ happen. You always inform decisionmakers what MIGHT happen. It is their job to decide how to act upon that information.
That was the whole point of the episode. They convinced Bashir they were absolutely correct, and he was absolutely determined to act upon that information. In the end, they learned that exact lesson.
Bashir said that they aren't exactly qualified for this kind of work. There's a reason they included that in the dialogue. Bashir understands humility, unlike the others.
Especially since we don’t see anything other than quirky people with just normal human abilities ramped up to eleven. I’m thinking of the Foundation universe and psychohistory, something like that would genuinely change the calculus but we don’t have it here.
that's why the AI will never take over the world! ☺☺Life is not a mathematical calculation
@@jhutfre4855 I think you’re about 5 years too late on that take my friend, it's already happened.
When Sisko performed The Picard Maneuver, you could tell he would be giving this his utmost attention.
Later that night he performed The Kirk Maneuver on Kassidy Yates.
Twice.
@@theevilascotcompany9255my god, he talked her into killing herself?
Well Sisko lost much because of Picard , rightful thefts begin by taking the shirt-maneuver of Jean Luc , , , 🖖
Patrick never asks stupid questions
Ha!
That's a stupid question.
@@Nickelodeon81 Technically there isnt a question at all, which makes what you said a stupid statement.
@@builder396 You only think that because you didn't see what he did there. ua-cam.com/video/nhhXBBgdfuc/v-deo.html
1:30 Is she a *SUCCUBUS* ???
I've never seen Captain Sisco holding so many data pads at once XD
It's a great illustration of the mental abilities of Bashir and the Jack Pack. They think nothing of paying attention to five screens at once.
Begs the question: Did we really need 5 data pads at all? Feels like they just need a tablet with PowerPoint.
@@DemonofLight80 You would think an officer would have had enough of powerpoints in his lifetime
@@DemonofLight80 I have several handheld devices because it's easier to do cross comparative lookups that way. Similar idea to multi-monitor setups. Why use one monitor when you can have two or more.
@@DemonofLight80 This is in some alternate universe where tablets weren't invented because Star Trek wasn't around to help inspire their invention.
I love the jem hadar and the non linear calculations- reminds me of sadurkar from dune and thr psychohistory of Foundation
Sisko holding that mountain of data pads with the most overwhelmed expression is hilarious. 😂 "Take it nice and slow," indeed, please.
If only they had a technology by which they could show all the info in different screens on one PADD.... 😁
"According to our analysis some Federation dissident will stage a fake Dominon assassination on a high ranking Romulan, possibly an ambassador or Senator, which will bring them into the war"
What the Dr. was talking about, the farther you go into the future the more accurate the projection sounds like 'Psychohistory' that Harry Sheldon used in the Foundation series written by Issac Asimov. With him the larger the population the more accurate the projection.
That was my first thought too.
Of course as the episode points out, that theory often overlooks the butterfly affect that even a single person can cause, upending the whole projection.
@@williamcostigan91 which is incredibly super rare to the point its often not worth considering. of course you have to redo your projections once you do them since its possible you can alter things to a certain degree
@@toomanyaccounts How do you know it's rare?
too bad that section 31 neglected to tell them that the war was already won
The universal translator even changes the way their lips move. 😂
hah
It is a simulation, probably a anti frustration feature of the simulation
@@JeremyClark-wu6eb The universal translator makes every alien lips move in English 🤣👍🖖
If you've played Star Trek Online, then you realize that Jack has the basic right of Dominion strategic thinking, just not the scale. In STO, you learn that the Founders' ability to study and adapt both science and strategy can reach back Millenia.
Jack's smart but but still limited by his human experience. Just like Khan and 3D combat. Jack and most humans can't really comprehend planning for longer than a human can be alive (let alone in charge).
@@rubaiyat300 And Founders are functionally immortal.
Yeahhhhh, IDK what all this nerd mumbo jumbo means but last night I had sex with a woman and I'm pretty sure that's not something ANY of you have experienced.
@@Mourtzouphlos240 yep, that gives them a fundamentally different approach to everything. Plus, they're also capable of operating as a hive-mind, which is another completely transformative way of thinking. It's kinda like series vs. parallel processing. Humans mostly exist in the former, species like the Borg mostly exist in the latter, while the Founders can freely access both. Heck of an advantage. It's no surprise why they owned an entire quadrant, and it's frankly a miracle that the Alpha quadrant folks managed to defeat them.
@@herbderbler1585 But they were right about the Dominion thinking in a much bigger scale than the federation. They were willing to do a war of attrition due to the fact that their troops were battle ready in a few years; not decades.
3:27 - Julian: -proceeds to spoil most of the rest of the show for the next few seasons- lol
Oh, my god they gave away two main plot parts of the war in a random episode!
@@kingvan7872 It’s only a spoiler if we know it is
The gag where Bashir keeps handing Sisko more padds is the best part of this.
God I wish we could have seen more of these guys
We project the Romulans will enter the war
Sisko: you don’t say
I miss this show. This and The Next Generation. Beautifully written, wonderfully acted.
Jack is so polite, he says "hi" to the computer
I love this scene, it so simply shows how next-level the intelligence of the augments are.
@@guyincognito8440 Well, at least one of them is a violent psychopath for one thing. But mainly because they’ve been treated like broken mutants all their lives and the wonderfully utopian Federation didn’t know how to empower them to use their abilities.
@@theevilascotcompany9255 it should be noted that most of these guys were made via very _bad_ gene-techs, not all of them had the gene-tech that Bashir had, while the Augments were during the pioneer days of gene-tech.
Good thing the Romulans would take so long to abandon the treaty, otherwise we'd never get In the Pale Moonlight!
Garak: Give me five minutes.
They were right, the Romulans do enter the war (though it ends up happening via Sisko and Garak coaxing them to earlier than the projection probably), and internal pressures between the Dominion and Cardissans do erupt
Those aren't hard things to predict though. Obviously the Dominion and Cardies would eventually clash, because the Dominion was never about sharing or giving power. Just look at the gamma quadrant, the Dominion ran it like a totalitarian mafia. The only deal that could be made with the Dominion was to obey, and the Cardassians were a self important people who believed they were superior to all. The Romulans entering the war was likely too, since the Romulans would have known that instead of facing a bunch of different factions, they would be facing one consolidated enemy, and the Romulans very much want to do things their way. It's just that the Romulans were petty and selfish and liked seeing the Federation getting its butts kicked. Unlike Vulcans, Romulans were driven by emotion. But there's other factors. The Romulans didn't know if the federation would ultimately lose, their hopes would be that at the very least, the Federation would be severely weakened, giving the Romulans greater power. The Cardassians were petty too, only joining the Dominion out of rage for the previous war with the Federation. Truth be told, the Federation was always the most powerful faction, it's just that they didn't wield that power with an iron fist. The Federation could have wiped out Cardassians and the Romulans if they wanted., albeit at a high cost. But for the Dominion, especially with clone armies, no cost was too high. Especially since the founders were long lived and didn't particularly care if the places they were conquering were ashes by the time they controlled them.
@@peoplez129 The Romulans were weakened by a crippled Tal Shiar after their loss at the Omarian Nebula.
They wanted to see the Dominion threat eliminated as well, but were in no position to go to war. They signed the non-aggression pact because they knew they were in no position to go to war and were willing to give the Klingons and the Federation a bloody nose hoping their long time rivals and the Dominion would be weak from all the fighting after time that the Romulans can come in and take over the Alpha Quadrant themselves.
I love that they go on to project that the rebellion against the Dominion would start on Earth, and Weyoun makes the exact same prediction for a victory scenario eventually and contemplates obliterating the entire planet to guard against the possibility.
It's not a difficult prediction.
Earth is very far from any dominion ally and is populated by dozens of different species that have lived in a democracy.
The Uncomfortable X-Men
Very clever haha
@@DCdabest I can't take credit. It's from The Greatest Gen podcast, whenever they mention the mutants they come up with a new X-men title for them.
Oh hey! Akiba Red!
Today I learned that federation datapads don't have the Alt-Tab function
RIP to Michael Keenan who played Patrick, he passed in 2020
Dominion war would have been a great time to resurrect The Next Generation Moriarty plot thread
@The Cornfield They saved his program since he became self-aware and had professed that he was a changed man.
Given the changes the computer implemented with La Forge's request to make an opponent for him in the Holmesian style that could confound and possibly defeat Data as Holmes, and the fact that prior to this he was a villain, his intellect and insight could prove valuable.
They could implement him as some sort Hologram similar to the EMH in Voyager, even give him a portable holo-emitter.
The Enterprise-D was destroyed before the Dominion War though. No telling (not talking about the books, just the storyline shown on TV/film) if after the crash of the saucer section that the memory cube box they put the holocharacter Moriarty in in the episode Ship in a Bottle was in the Engineering Section when it was vaporized by the warp core explosion (quite possibly, since they would want to keep it stored in an area of the ship with quick access to maintenance, if the memory cube or extended memory device they put the cube into needed maintenance) and/or in the saucer section, but was damaged during the crash, not knowing if they kept it or just destroyed it.
They did do a variation of the Moriarty storyline though with DS9, with Vic, the hologram who is aware of his existence as a hologram.
For all Moriarty knows he's exploring the galaxy with his lady love right now. Leave him be. Unless of course his simulator was destroyed or damaged when the Enterprise D was destroyed by the Duras sisters. I wonder about that sometimes.
That might be an interesting story for the Star Trek Picard series. Picard stumbles into a turf war between the Orion Syndicate and some new criminal organization. After a bit of sleuthing he discovers that somebody found Moriarty's simulator, got him out and put him on a mobile holo emitter, and Moriarty went on to do what he does best.
He's very offended that Picard first tried to trick him, and then left him to "die".
@@Commanderziff what makes people think the memory cube was kept on Enterprise and not put in some secret starfleet facility for study and to keep secure?
@@toomanyaccounts it could have been.
A great example of how savants can think outside the box.Seeing things others may miss.
It's a matter of perception, but it's like a microscope or tunnel vision. Once they have their understanding in sight, they go into it full bore, but at the expense of what's going on around them, or rather turning out what's around them.
@ScornedOne1080 True but focus harnessed properly is usually a good thing.
@@stevengreen9536 I never said it was a bad thing, but there is always a price to be had for ones insights or intelligence.
A stereotype of the old and tired "savant-syndrome, non-functional but actually genius" neurodivergence. As a neurodivergent myself, this entire arc hurts me to my core because it perpetuates the tired Rain-man mythos, but in spite of that, I still enjoy DS9 and even this section of episodes. They didn't know better back then, and perpetuating old, harmful stereotypes was just...the norm back then.
Star Trek has always done its best to *not* do that, and that's the main reason why I forgive this. They simple didn't know better.
@@TheOnlyToblinBashir is genetically enhanced, not autistic.
The mutants were right, but not for the reasons the mutants expected. The Romulans abandoned the non-aggression pact, not out of some organic change in political attitudes, but because Sisko tricked them. The Dominion and Cardassians experienced internal tensions, not because of a naturally growing schism, but because the Founder made a secret alliance with the Breen that marginalized Cardassia's role in the Dominion. The only piece of analysis which was worth anything was the discovery of why the Dominion agreed to a repositioning of the border. Everything else was sheer conjecture masked by sophisticated mathematics.
Sisko knew the Romulans had to get involved. he knew he had to accelerate their coming in. without the Jack pack predications he likely would never have involved Garak to get the Romulans involved. There was a natural growing schism that would have eventually grown into rebellion on Cardassia Prime. Dukat after all had done the alliance with the Dominion with the plan to overthrown the Dominion when the time was right.
Since Sisko had brought in the Romulans earlier then predicated the Founder was forced to get allies.
Indeed. The predictions pointed to a potential path for Federation victory if things went that way, but the federation needed to move the timescale forward on those events. The Romulans coming in early greatly strengthens the federation position and forces the dominion to weaken their position with the cardasians, leading to a sooner rebellion and the faster defeat of the dominion. All only possible if the federation delay their hand over of 1 system until they get everything in place for a while... just long enough to get things set up. Otherwise, they risk losing the alpha quadrant completely.
Small correction: It wasn't Sisko who tricked the Romulans, it was Gark after Sisko asked him to do so (and Garak even tricked Sisko in the process)
They were almost right because, as realized at the end, they didn’t take all the variables into account. Leaving one of their own out resulted in miscalculations. They were not obvious until their projections painted a more extreme outcome and timetable.
DS9 has such a beautiful way of showing how mental “disabilities” can actually have a huge and important way of looking at things. People see things in different ways, yes sometimes that’s dangerous. But sometimes it beautiful. And intelligent, which must be respected.
they aren't disabled in intellect
@@toomanyaccountstheyre socially and emotionally disabled
@@eparigon Whatever their "disabilities" are, it won't detract from the fact that they're still extremely intelligent and capable of doing things that most disabled people wouldn't be able to do.
Man I love the sperg squad, so good.
"We're mutants."
* 90's X-Men theme starts playing *
3:40 Sisko looks so lost holding a spread of tablet computers like they're sheets of paper.
0:39 I love Lauren almost as much as I love Kira. She was like a cat in a human body.
Yeah Hillary Shepard Turner did a lot with body language alone to convey how "alien" Lauren is. She moves completely differently from literally everything else
She was the least believable of the geniuses. Really smart women don't look anything like her.
@@anonygent Ada Lovelace, Hedy Lamarr, Cleopatra and Mary Shelley beg to differ
FORESHADOWING!!
I'm thinking probably that the reason why the genetic altering was botched on these people is because they had mental health issues prior to the surgery that were either too subtle, or never disclosed to the surgeon. So when the procedure was complete, their senses, strength, agility and intelligence were in fact enhanced, but so were the mental health problems.
the surgeons were black market. no quality assurance. like plastic surgeries on the black market you may either get a competent doctor who is doing additional work on the sly (very rare) or a hack who will use quick dry cement as filler for a butt check implant.
@ElfNerd - Not necessarily.
The Ballance of genetics to physiology is very complex and intricate.
You could either make effective changes that would alter _many factors_ in all kinds of great and small, subtle ways,
Or more likely, any changes you make would have _no effect_ on the final structure of the complete organism, at all.
Changing an organism _just a little_ by changing its genetics would be VERY difficult and how to do that would be very obscure and ambiguous.
@@blawson3603 Julian's parents went to a non fed world renowned for the quality of its surgeons and that guaranteed privacy. so probably not cheap and they took the time to find such a world.
A good part of the problem was and is because of the way genes work in us. Intelligence isn't a single cluster on the X or Y chromosome, but a whole bunch of little ones. They all factor in to relative intelligence. ...Unfortunately, a number of those IQ gene groups are also tied into different aspects of neurological development and function and behavioral programming; by tweaking the gene groups to increase IQ, the genetic hack doctors accidentally made them very neurodivergent.
When discussing them I think the implication was that their cases were the same as Bashir, their parents got them enhanced it wasn't their choice they just live with the consequences. So if there were any underling problems it would have been up to the parents to communicate them.
the best part about this scene, is if you listen closely he is about to predict the cardassian rebellion, which in fact is exacly how the war went.
credit where credit is due, their prediction was accurate, but they don't understand the value of freedom, as they never had it, which is why they rebelled on the notion that the war had to go on.
in a general sense yes accurate. however since the predications were known they should have been revised.
The foreshadowing in all of this is on another level, this is good Trek~
some of the best depictions of Neuro divergants in all of scifi
Ah that classic zoom in on face while other people walk away transitions. I love Star Trek.
4:19 The Picard Maneuver
One thing this episode of always highlighted was the fact that iPad equivalent technology in their time is equal to manila folders with packets of information in are’s
I didn't know that Coffeezilla was hunting space scammers back in the 90s.
This is the most fascinating episode of DS9 💯
I really appreciate this version of trek the older I get
I used to work with somebody like Jack. One time he wanted to do something and the supervisor said no. This guy ran to his computer and said okay I won't do it this is what I'm going to do. The supervisor said no no don't do that and then told him to do what he originally wanted to do. There was even a slight resemblance. By the way this guy was smarter than the average person.
2:43 Sisko was more used to putting people in hospital, rather than getting them out of there!
Gets more accurate over time. We're certain how the universe is gonna end!
I’ve always thought that DS9’s mutants were allegories for our present day’s “autistic spectrum disorder” savants.
Each of them is a savant, but they all seem to have different disorders. For example, the multilingual one seems to be affected by some form of Tourette's at a cursory glance. The one who made the chemical analysis of the fungus looks like she is a nonverbal form of autistic, though.
almisami Yeah; I think I see that. It’s just interesting this was the effort to get positive visibility or allegories in pop culture of the 90’s on issues decades ago, that we didn’t know what those brain differences were. To many back then they were just dismissed as strange.
A different more positive flavor of political correctness compared to what we do nowadays. The contrast is interesting.
Spiner said something to the effect that a lot of fan mail for his character Data was from autistic people who appreciated that they could relate to his issues of not understanding human socio interactions. Spiner it was moving to hear that though they never intended it that way.
Shame it took until Tilly to have an autistic character that's part of the crew, and not some uber-special mega genius of the week. Oh well.
@@Jokie155 instead they had that fat heffer winning a marathon.
Love the imagery. The tiny smiling non-threatening Weyoun is controlling the huge scary grey lather-clad Cardassians.
I love this episode. For anyone on the autism spectrum, it really does articulate how autism can be a positive
I thought for a moment it was that they think 1,10,100 years into the future - a million years, in other words. It _has_ been a while since I saw DS9...
The Federations long term strategy is way more thought through. Resistance isn't futile but we can wait.
I love Patrick, I want him to be happy. When he's sad I feel sad.
Accurately predicting the future is an exercise in futility.
There are simply far too many unforeseen variables and too few constants.
The best one can hope for is an educated guess.
Btw, it's 2024. Where the hell is the limitless free energy, robot servants, and flying cars we were promised?
Romulan alliance, conflict between the Cardassians and the Dominion... hmmm...
DS9 writing at its best, the series was foreshadowing future plot points.
the mutants really got the analysis spot on
One of my favorite episodes.
Hecking fantastic scene
Weyoun is such a snake. I love it!
Ah yes, giving up Star systems to the Cardassians and Federation sides, because that has never caused problems in the past 😅
I always thought that Starfleet could just secretly poison the planet with the ketracel white components, then trade the system away. It would buy time for them to make ships, while also sabotaging a large portion of the Jem'Hadar
Yeah, I think they try to stay away from genocide if they can help it
That’s basically bio-warfare and the federation aren’t really into that.
All this long-term speculation sounds like what a lot of back-room Cold War discussions were like back in the day 🙄
True, but there is also the fact that we did avoid the worst conflicts DUE to things we did, intentional or otherwise. There are arguments that both the USA and USSR managed to avoid full out conflict by their mistakes and successes, all the while trying to figure out how to avoid all out nuclear war. Never discount the effect of people actually doing things to AVOID a certain outcome.
If DS9 were made today, you'd think all stats would be on just ONE PADD???
Even though sisko sees the sheer scale of info before him, he is willing to listen to every word of the proposal.
Funny thing is that the Romulans do enter the war and the alliance between the Dominion and the Cardassians does become strained to the point of Rebellion.
It's been a while since a saw DS9.
My apoligize for just seing so many PADS, no one thought about multitasking on just one PAD lol
Until Foundation premiered on Apple, I didn't realize the writers of this episode were riffing off Asimov's psychohistory.
Rewatching this now with Picard in mind, Dominion thinking long term
Sisko: Romulans you say?
Funny thing it was the actions of Sisko that brought the Romulans into the battle on the Federation's side.
far earlier
Well, they were right about the Romulans and Cardassians...
I noticed when they "adjust" the borders on screen, the cardassians don't actually gain any systems.. at least on the display.
Well spotted.
And so The Culture was born....
You need SEVERAL tablets in the future?
No Windows or Google Tabs huh?
You've got to remember the time you're talking about for production. It's 1998. Laptops were only just starting to become a thing, even the idea of real touchpads was a long way off, and AOL was still lurking around.
I think that`s because the production of those pads is super cheap in the future why not having several of those especially if you want to compare things, holding 1 tablet in 1 hand and another one as well. I`d do it cause otherwise you would just need to switch tabs, that`s not that cool. But I`m sure each of this pads is capable of replacing all other tabs. If they were on vacation or so, 1 pad would be enough. But when you have them as much as you want - why not? It basically reminds me a concept of electronic newspaper from several years go
@@rcslyman8929 Laptip began to become a thing around 1993~1994. By 1998 people already knew about then though most people had never even touched one.
@@rcslyman8929 WINDOWS has existed since before 1995.
The idea of a bitmap display with multiple "windows" wasn't new in the 90's.
@@PassportBrosBusinessClass Windows 3.1.1 was an overlay for DOS, hardly a stellar example of multifunction, and Windows 95 wasn't much better in terms of program consolidation. There was no "tabs", even in 98. Yes, you could run multiple programs at a time, but opening documents still spawned new instances of the program that was opening it. And once again, the concept of a tablet device was so far outside any concept in the general public. Besides, it's a little funny watch Bashir do the old comedic routine of "burying the boss with reports".
1:18 Now that was just Genius!
I wonder who wrote that line? Who had that idea?
It seems like something Bear MacReady would think of, but it could have sat on the writer's idea board for a long time!
Did Bear work on DS9? I know Ron D. Moore did. Bear is a brilliant composer, I am not sure he is involved in writing dialogue or that he worked on DS9 in any capacity.
The abilities of the mutants to notice things an average person would miss (e.g. Patrick noticing Weyoun and Damar avoiding looking at the Capral System and deducing they want it, and Jack noticing the use of a tense used only to make a request - although I don't see the relevance of Jack's point) is believable. What is unbelievable is the conclusions they reached concerning the progress of the war from their analyses later on. At 3:47 Bashir says to Sisko "...in 3 years 6 months and 27 days...". Okay they can not only predict the future but also right to the precise DAY?" Then at 4:26 Bashir says the futher into the future they look small fluctuations would factor out so the more accurate their analyses would become. That is baloney. Small fluctuations factoring out may apply to physical systems with no sentient beings to make conscious decisions but not when dealing with people capable of making decisions.
"Since when could you speak Domionese?" -- "Since this morning." And it took me 3 years to even become comfortable with my ability to speak Mandarin Chinese. smh lol
To be fair, he was only translating Dominionese, not speaking it.
3 years? I congratulate you. I lived there for 7 years and barely got a passing grasp on it.
wow, Sisko and Dr. provided this Super Humans with Military information...
if i were the chosen one, i would provide them
with ancient tomes for Bajoran prophecies (than classified military info).
it is Challenging, questing, productive, and... most importantly... is safe toy.
Pretty good dunk from Damar at the start "get over yourselves, im not happy either."
0:31
Sisko(thinking): It's all for you, Benny.
2:43 Me too
well since the shapeshifter live very long, there plan make sence, PLUS they have a whole other empire behind the worm hole, in time that will incress and come after the federation.
When I negotiate in bad faith or have alterior motive I ALWAYS use passive voice transitives. ALWAYS.
I would have given the Dominion the system but not before a little planetary bombardment destroy fungus!
As much as this arc hurts me as a neurodivergent (representing us as non-functional genius freaks, thus perpetuating the savant-syndrome myth), I do love the depths of the analysis they go into. It's interesting how each of them notice different things.
I just thought they were genetically modified
@@Spanner249That's what they are, in-universe. But in story-telling terms, they are "coded" as neurodivergent. They're meant to evoke autism and savant-syndrome through their awkward, non-standard behaviour.
@@TheOnlyToblinNone of them are autism metaphors.
Or is excessive sex drive and narcissism common in autistic people?
Sisko: "Dude stop handing me pads for each document. Just keep the documents on 1 device you freaking genius. Do you even know what a Power Point is?"
Back when you needed one iPad per app.
Most of their analysis" Were speculations of a probability of futures. Of war, between the Federation & Dominion. No matter, how intelligent they were, they couldn't see the unexpected. That altered their projections.
They were the “lone gunman” of the show
3:10 This proposal to hand over the Cabral system, even though it was the sole source of Ketrocel White, was the first big sign the augments had completely lost sight of reality. They were unable to acknowledge that events 1, 2, or 5 years out were actually beyond their ability to predict, no matter how complex their mathematical projections were, and the simple and sound strategy of cutting an enemy off from a vital resource, even if costly, was the correct and sound strategy.
In a way, their suggestion to hand over Cabral indicates their own bias. In order to flatter their own egos, they, a priori, rejected solutions that weren't overly complicated or didn't rely on wildly complex mathematical computations. They had also made perfect an enemy of the good, in that costly solutions were simply off the table, even if they were correct, because they weren't ideal.
someone asked what an autistic focused D&D game would look like, I immediately recommended this. (though in my experience: most a lot of D&D players are already on spectrum, so why bother)
They should have kept them on the station. A group of superhumans, kept under control but also protected by a near-superhuman. They didn't even need to show them so often, just every now & then Dr. Bashir informing Sisko: They projected this, they warned us not to do that, etc. I don't remember why they didn't stay or what happened to them.
They became so obsessed with their prediction of defeat, presumably correctly based on the incomplete info they had, that they actively tried to sabotage Starfleet. After that they understandably couldn't trust them fully.
Except when small fluctuations instead compound.
I would give them the damn planet after vaporizing all life on it so there is no trace of the Fungus.
Ah so now I know about Foundation, Bashir just pinched PsychoHistory
Funny how Star Trek could predict we'd use tablets and handheld computers, but didn't think you could store all that info on a single datapad. Nope, Bashir must have 5-6 of the things and hand them to Sisko in person instead of just sending him the files from a single datapad to another. Good old future past.
Well you can't make a TV show where people just email reports.
@@lucasbachmann they use multi pads like one would use different report folders
Could be that they were running up against the computing limits of the datapads with each topic covered relegated to its own with all of its supporting information and calculations available to be drilled down into, but being too much for just one pad.
I liked this episode.