I would love to see you debate Dr. Jordan Cooper on this issue. The way he beats that dead horse makes me think this is the last thing keeping him Lutheran.
@@dylantharp1096 Yeah, I don’t understand why everything always needs to be an argument - Sometimes the most elucidating exchanges happen in an informal setting over a pint.
This idea of unity has contributed greatly to me becoming Orthodox. The burning bush is not consumed by the Divine flame, but coexists and is drawn up into identity with it. In the Eucharist, the bread is not destroyed but BECOMES Christ for us. You'll see why I find this important shortly. One of the most common objections to Orthodoxy I've faced, both internally and externally, is that in order to be Orthodox, you have to join a particular national Church (Constantinopolitan Orthodoxy, Alexandrian Orthodoxy, Jerusalem or Russian Orthodoxy, etc). You can't just "be Orthodox" like how you can "be Roman Catholic". You have to be Russian Orthodox, or Greek Orthodox, or you get the picture. As a Catholic, I thought this undermined the Orthodox claim to catholicity; now, I understand that it bolsters it. In Orthodoxy, a nation, by becoming part of the Church and being drawn up into the Logos of God, is not destroyed or compromised or turned into some androgynous entity, but truly maintains its identity as what it is and is given life in itself. Each Church is the Catholic Church; Catholic signifying both "universal", that is, that each Church is the whole Church, and "according to the whole," that is, it is a part of the body of Christ which is the Church. After the schism, Roman Catholicism underwent, for obvious reasons, a great centralization, and likewise a great homogenization. The Council of Trent (together with Pope Pius V) suppressed all Western Rites but a few, replacing them with the tridentine rite. And it wasn't obviously apparent what was wrong with this (in light of what i said previously it is-- where differences existed in perfect communion while maintaining their uniqueness, the uniqueness is now destroyed by communion), it is increasingly so. Because, more or less, there is one Church and one rite (in an altogether different sense than that of the Orthodox), the liturgical reforms after Vatican II were applied to the whole Church at a very basic level. It was not one church, one particular national church that fell into malpractice, but the whole Church except a few schismatics and uniates. Thus is the warning of St. Pope Gregory the Great against a "Universal Bishop", that through him all shall fall
Good video. Instead of the saints 'mediating' us to Christ, as if they were gnostic aeons, rather it is through Christ where we are mediated not just to the Father, but to the Saints.
This is one topic where I honestly don’t see the issue at all. Any charitable treatment of the Tradition would quickly conclude that we’re not asking the Saints to grant us justification itself or salvation itself. If we ask each other for prayers and help and we believe that Saints live forever then praying to them is logical. It’s also an essential part of our further incorporation into the Body of Christ since we are not truly His Body until we love each other enough to help each other and keep each other in mind.
The concept of mediation and the concept of intercession are hard to separate- one of the points implied in this video was the way in which they are almost used interchangeably. The body of Christ makes intercession for all mankind because the head of Christ stands as mediator for all mankind. The language of intercession is tied together with the identity of Jesus as high priest- He who "makes intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12). Similarly, when Jesus is described as "mediator of the new covenant" in Hebrews, it is in the context in His divine investiture as high priest.
Thanks for this. It’s very thought-provoking and provides a deeper basis for the intercession of the saints than the standard pro-intercession-of-the-saints arguments do. I will have to give it another listen to let it fully sink in but to the extent that I’ve understood it so far, it makes sense. I would definitely like to hear more on this though.
That is a good articulation of a positive conception of divine unity and infinity. Bonaventure and Scotus articulate infinity in a very similar manner. See my video on the divine attributes.
Hello, Evangelical-ish believer here: Thank you for the long form, and carefully researched explanations you have made. I have a huge amount of respect and general goodwill and prayer for you with the 'Serious Answer to Protestant' series. It is most edifying to find people willing to actually treat concerns as, if not valid, at least an honest question from someone seeking God. I would like to ask you a 1-2 question. Do the Orthodox require prayer to the saints lest they be anathema by the Orthodox Church as the Roman Catholics do? Or does a believer fall under the 'Weak Brother' principle Paul instructs us to have? Thank you for any time you give to this question, especially on an older video. I wanted to keep my question on the relevent comment section for video topic. God Bless you and keep you.
Most KJV version only Bible Fundamentalist don't except the Verses & they don't want to hear about the Church Father's but thanks for this video God bless. I did Convert a Lutheran to the Catholic church God bless & Jesus Mary and Joseph Pray for Us Christ Save us Holy spirit Strengthen us" 🗝️🗝️🙏💯 Catholic" I love the Channel good explanation but what about the Bible fundamentalist that's like oh I don't buy that verse?? If We could prove this the Prostestantism would not excist" But a lot are coming to the Catholic church & or some to Eastern Orthodox Tim Staples Jimmy Aikins Steve Ray ex Prostestants" & The Bible fundamentalist won't expecpt 6-51-58 & 1st Corinthians on the Eucharist along with Matthew they use biblical gymnastics"
Unfortunately, Dr Jordan Cooper's arguments rely on misquoting the fathers and a number of questionable statements regarding the biblical witness. I've noticed some Peotestants online appear really excited about it, so maybe a response should be in order (however simple it maybe)
@@pabloh5884 I like Jordan and his videos, but I do think there is a reason why he has devoted nearly 3 hours to this. He no doubt sees this as a weakness in the apostolic churches. Many protestants have been converting to Orthodoxy, RC, and I even know a few who went Copt. One of the reasons is that the earliest Patristic texts clearly affirm baptismal regeneration, real presence of the Eucharist, and episcopal government. Even iconography is abundant pre-Nicea. What is much more sparse in terms of documentary evidence is clear affirmations of praying to the saints. Coupled with misquoted church fathers, like Irenaeus, Epiphanius, and Athanasius, he could contort them as advocating against prayerful intercession to the saints. In which case he is able to make the case for questioning Protestants to become Lutheran.
He insists on equivocating the word "pray" to imply an idolatrous worship of the saints. "Pray" simply means "petition." Dr. Cooper needs to just go Orthodox if he can't stomach Rome. It's very hard to kick against the pricks.
@@jamesb0gginsw0rth63 Thanks for your comment, James. Is there a good video out there on Pre Nicean icon veneration? If not what resource would you recommend?
A video on the Eucharist and apostolic succession would really help my Protestant friends
^^^
This
I would love to see you debate Dr. Jordan Cooper on this issue. The way he beats that dead horse makes me think this is the last thing keeping him Lutheran.
or Dr. Jordan Peterson
Honestly, an informal discussion on the topic might be better. Could even do 2 parts: firs the Scriptural, then the historical
@@dylantharp1096 Yeah, I don’t understand why everything always needs to be an argument - Sometimes the most elucidating exchanges happen in an informal setting over a pint.
This idea of unity has contributed greatly to me becoming Orthodox. The burning bush is not consumed by the Divine flame, but coexists and is drawn up into identity with it. In the Eucharist, the bread is not destroyed but BECOMES Christ for us.
You'll see why I find this important shortly.
One of the most common objections to Orthodoxy I've faced, both internally and externally, is that in order to be Orthodox, you have to join a particular national Church (Constantinopolitan Orthodoxy, Alexandrian Orthodoxy, Jerusalem or Russian Orthodoxy, etc). You can't just "be Orthodox" like how you can "be Roman Catholic". You have to be Russian Orthodox, or Greek Orthodox, or you get the picture. As a Catholic, I thought this undermined the Orthodox claim to catholicity; now, I understand that it bolsters it. In Orthodoxy, a nation, by becoming part of the Church and being drawn up into the Logos of God, is not destroyed or compromised or turned into some androgynous entity, but truly maintains its identity as what it is and is given life in itself. Each Church is the Catholic Church; Catholic signifying both "universal", that is, that each Church is the whole Church, and "according to the whole," that is, it is a part of the body of Christ which is the Church.
After the schism, Roman Catholicism underwent, for obvious reasons, a great centralization, and likewise a great homogenization. The Council of Trent (together with Pope Pius V) suppressed all Western Rites but a few, replacing them with the tridentine rite. And it wasn't obviously apparent what was wrong with this (in light of what i said previously it is-- where differences existed in perfect communion while maintaining their uniqueness, the uniqueness is now destroyed by communion), it is increasingly so. Because, more or less, there is one Church and one rite (in an altogether different sense than that of the Orthodox), the liturgical reforms after Vatican II were applied to the whole Church at a very basic level. It was not one church, one particular national church that fell into malpractice, but the whole Church except a few schismatics and uniates. Thus is the warning of St. Pope Gregory the Great against a "Universal Bishop", that through him all shall fall
Good video. Instead of the saints 'mediating' us to Christ, as if they were gnostic aeons, rather it is through Christ where we are mediated not just to the Father, but to the Saints.
Kabane you're great!
This is one topic where I honestly don’t see the issue at all. Any charitable treatment of the Tradition would quickly conclude that we’re not asking the Saints to grant us justification itself or salvation itself.
If we ask each other for prayers and help and we believe that Saints live forever then praying to them is logical. It’s also an essential part of our further incorporation into the Body of Christ since we are not truly His Body until we love each other enough to help each other and keep each other in mind.
Great video thank you
The minute you pray for someone else you're mediating.
The concept of mediation and the concept of intercession are hard to separate- one of the points implied in this video was the way in which they are almost used interchangeably. The body of Christ makes intercession for all mankind because the head of Christ stands as mediator for all mankind. The language of intercession is tied together with the identity of Jesus as high priest- He who "makes intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12). Similarly, when Jesus is described as "mediator of the new covenant" in Hebrews, it is in the context in His divine investiture as high priest.
Thank you for the time you put into this.Awesome job on a important topic.I like short videos but I could have listened to another 40 minutes.
Thanks for this. It’s very thought-provoking and provides a deeper basis for the intercession of the saints than the standard pro-intercession-of-the-saints arguments do. I will have to give it another listen to let it fully sink in but to the extent that I’ve understood it so far, it makes sense. I would definitely like to hear more on this though.
That is a good articulation of a positive conception of divine unity and infinity. Bonaventure and Scotus articulate infinity in a very similar manner. See my video on the divine attributes.
Hello,
Evangelical-ish believer here:
Thank you for the long form, and carefully researched explanations you have made. I have a huge amount of respect and general goodwill and prayer for you with the 'Serious Answer to Protestant' series. It is most edifying to find people willing to actually treat concerns as, if not valid, at least an honest question from someone seeking God.
I would like to ask you a 1-2 question.
Do the Orthodox require prayer to the saints lest they be anathema by the Orthodox Church as the Roman Catholics do?
Or does a believer fall under the 'Weak Brother' principle Paul instructs us to have?
Thank you for any time you give to this question, especially on an older video. I wanted to keep my question on the relevent comment section for video topic.
God Bless you and keep you.
If Jesus is the one Shepherd, then why Pastors ("Shepherds" in Latin)?
can we say jesus intercession and saints intercession tha same?
Most KJV version only Bible Fundamentalist don't except the Verses & they don't want to hear about the Church Father's but thanks for this video God bless. I did Convert a Lutheran to the Catholic church God bless & Jesus Mary and Joseph Pray for Us Christ Save us Holy spirit Strengthen us" 🗝️🗝️🙏💯 Catholic" I love the Channel good explanation but what about the Bible fundamentalist that's like oh I don't buy that verse?? If We could prove this the Prostestantism would not excist" But a lot are coming to the Catholic church & or some to Eastern Orthodox Tim Staples Jimmy Aikins Steve Ray ex Prostestants" & The Bible fundamentalist won't expecpt 6-51-58 & 1st Corinthians on the Eucharist along with Matthew they use biblical gymnastics"
Dr. Cooper made a video recently on how it is unbiblical to ask for intercession of the saints
Unfortunately, Dr Jordan Cooper's arguments rely on misquoting the fathers and a number of questionable statements regarding the biblical witness. I've noticed some Peotestants online appear really excited about it, so maybe a response should be in order (however simple it maybe)
@@jamesb0gginsw0rth63 Yes I don't understand why he does that since he is a smart guy
@@pabloh5884 I like Jordan and his videos, but I do think there is a reason why he has devoted nearly 3 hours to this. He no doubt sees this as a weakness in the apostolic churches. Many protestants have been converting to Orthodoxy, RC, and I even know a few who went Copt. One of the reasons is that the earliest Patristic texts clearly affirm baptismal regeneration, real presence of the Eucharist, and episcopal government. Even iconography is abundant pre-Nicea. What is much more sparse in terms of documentary evidence is clear affirmations of praying to the saints. Coupled with misquoted church fathers, like Irenaeus, Epiphanius, and Athanasius, he could contort them as advocating against prayerful intercession to the saints. In which case he is able to make the case for questioning Protestants to become Lutheran.
He insists on equivocating the word "pray" to imply an idolatrous worship of the saints.
"Pray" simply means "petition." Dr. Cooper needs to just go Orthodox if he can't stomach Rome. It's very hard to kick against the pricks.
@@jamesb0gginsw0rth63 Thanks for your comment, James.
Is there a good video out there on Pre Nicean icon veneration? If not what resource would you recommend?