Q&A Clip: If God Is All-Knowing, Why Do We Pray? And Why Do We Need the Saints? | Jonathan Pageau
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
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Thank you Jonathan.🙏🏼☦️
If I'm hungry and I pray to God for a bowl of soup, and then a bowl of soup magically appears, then I'm blessed and grateful, but nothing has happened within the hierarchy between me and God. No bond of concern and mercy (love) has been established and strengthened. The expression of the need, and the meeting of the need, needs to flow up and down the hierarchy, so that God (who is Love) can fill the hierarchy. Union in God is the great project.
And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one- I in them, and you in me, in order that they may be completed in one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me.
- John 17:22-23
What's the point of something happening between you and God?
Isn't it enough for God to give you the soup that you prayed for?
@@No5TypeK It's enough, but if God provides the soup in response to the prayer of a saint, and then uses an angel to move a brother to bless me with a bowl of soup, then there is a uniting chain of grace. We are functioning in a real sense like a mystical body.
@@No5TypeK Grace is not a mere commodity that one can possess. It is something more like a divine dynamic that we can participate in, both in receiving and dispensing. Union and participation in the life of God is our telos. The divine life is not individual and transactional, it is communal and participatory.
@@No5TypeK As Christians we give up our separate lives and live on in Jesus' life, as His body. If the foot itches, the nerves communicate that to the brain. The brain will direct a finger to scratch it. The brain provided relief through the finger. Different parts of the body participated in the grace that provided relief. Keep reading your Bible, and listening to The Symbolic World. Eventually, a lot of it will just click.
@@No5TypeK Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan, for it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’ ” Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and began ministering to him.
- Matthew 4:10-11
And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw and knelt down and began to pray, saying, “Father, if you are willing, take away this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.” 〚 And an angel from heaven appeared to him, strengthening him. - Luke 22:41-43
Also, read about Lot's give and take with the angels in Genesis 19.
For just as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, although they are many, are one body, thus also Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and all were made to drink one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” not because of this is it not a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body, not because of this is it not a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body just as he wanted. And if they all were one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. Now the eye is not able to say to the hand, “I do not have need of you,” or again, the head to the feet, “I do not have need of you.” But by much more the members of the body which are thought to be weaker are necessary, and the parts of the body which we think to be less honorable, these we clothe with more abundant honor, and our unpresentable parts come to have more abundant presentability, but our presentable parts do not have need of this. Yet God composed the body by giving more abundant honor to the part which lacked it, in order that there not be a division in the body, but the members would have the same concern for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer together; if a member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and members of it individually,
- 1 Corinthians 12:12-27
[Saints in heaven are still part of the One Body]
But we ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, so that we would not be putting confidence in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead, who delivered us from so great a risk of death, and will deliver us, in whom we have put our hope that he will also deliver us again, while you also join in helping on our behalf by prayer, so that thanks may be given on our behalf by many persons for this gracious gift given to us through the help of many.
- 2 Corinthians 1:9-11
Therefore, I urge first of all that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgiving be made on behalf of all people,
- 1 Timothy 2:1
May the Spirit guide you on your journey of faith.
Nice explenation.Saints are transmitors of God will and Heaven,just like Bible,icons,words music and so on..my opinion
Good morning
So is it that since humanity fell and now God is too transcendent to approach directly we need mediation such as the church, saints, Christs' Incarnation, etc to reach towards God?
This question stumps the Calvinists 😂
Do you pray to the Saints?
Prayers go unto thyself, and those voices in your head are where prayers go.
We are the body of Christ all of us. Some have died and gone to heaven. So yes I want those people to pray for me for sure. And I happen to love
The Litany of the Saints.
The more the body of Christ is united in Christ the more things get good if you ask me.
All you holy men and women pray for us!
Your explanation is a little rushed. I'm a Protestant looking into whether Orthodoxy is true, so a lot of this is still new to me. After watching it twice I think I got the gist of it, so the information was still very helpful. This is indeed a question that has stumped me, especially when it comes to asking other people to pray for you, and I notice that Protestants do not have a satisfactory answer to this beyond the overly basic "it's a relationship so you have to communicate with each other". That may be true, but the question is more specific than that, and has not been answered.
Did you ever find the answer?
@@holycatholicapostolicfaith Hi there!
I guess the answer is both yes and no. I’ve been committed to holy Orthodoxy for over a year now, and this includes a huge amount of prayer in both the holy liturgy and throughout every day. The Lord responds to it mightily and I can no longer imagine life without it.
So in a sense, yes, I understand it now. But also no, because I cannot explain what is going on.
It’s a bit like the question “why do we sleep?”. I cannot explain what sleep is for, but I know very deeply why I do it, because I know what it’s like to be rested and I know what it’s like to be exhausted. In the same way I know by constant experience that proper (Orthodox) prayer feeds my soul with God’s mercy, to the point where I can even live easily with only half the sleep and a quarter of the food that I needed before, and it’s only been one year so far…
I hope that helps. Have a great day!
prayer is a form of sacraficing your sin
I understand the idea but I still disagree with the concept. The only one I need to pray on my behalf is Jesus, why would I settle for a lower advocate like a "saint". I understand their importance and the wonderful things they did but I'm not praying to anyone but the living God.
Don't ask anyone to pray for you then. And don't pray for anyone else. If someone asks you to pray for them, call them a heretic.
@@romeisburning6739 What's the point of asking the Saints to pray for you? Isn't it a waste of time since they are going to redirect your prayer to God anyway?
@Rome Is Burning i didn't say it was a sin, but I don't need anyone to pray for me all i need is Jesus and the holy spirit and im good 👍
@@romeisburning6739 also all the saints are dead and they can't be my advocate in heaven anyway only Jesus can
@@danielvergara8537 If you start by declaring the Saints "dead", then of course you wouldn't understand the practice of praying to the Saints. Your main issue is the eschatology of the Church, praying to the Saints is a consequence of understanding them as alive.
Prayer is actually a great way to train your mind to be optimistic and positive when life is hard or if you need to cleanse spiritually. It’s not about receiving from God. We create our own miracles through our actions. Prayer is a good way to cleanse your mind and to devote yourself to taking Godly actions. Its not about God intervening to fix our problems - we must be responsible for that on our own. But “God” provides the direction, we walk the road. Praying to God is a way to generate your most ideal Godly Self.
Scripture explicitly said it's about asking for God's help and communion with Him.
This is both true and false. To be continued as your faith progresses..
This is useful to know (I come from an evangelical perspective).
The only part I would like to understand is why the prayers are to dead saints instead of currently living members of Christ's body?
The saints aren't dead. They are Alive in Heaven.
To add to Wisco's above comment: It's also both-and. We ask the [Alive] Saints and the members in the Body.
@@WiscoDrinks pardon my terminology, I simply those that have experienced death on earth as we know it.
Assuming they are alive in heaven, what gives rise to access to them via prayers? After all, they are not God-like in that they cannot know all prayers coming to them (at least there is no clear scripture to support such ability).
I also wonder if such access to those on the other side is even legal from God's perspective as isnt this similar to what Saul was doing with the then passed on Samuel? (albeit via a medium)
@@Konarali petitioning a Saint to pray for you on your behalf is not stranger than asking a friend on earth to do the same, and in a way it's less weird to ask saints in heaven to pray on your behalf to the Lord. Also, Nothings stopping you from talking to God directly. Asking fellow Christians to pray with you is better than doing it alone as you participate with the body of Christ.
@@WiscoDrinks thanks for your response. While I'm not totally convinced this is a legitimate way to pray, I appreciate you taking the time to explain and I understand your position better for it.
Hope you have a wonderful 2023 🙏😃
I always thought Mark 15:38, "And the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom." meant we now have direct access to God. No priest or Rabbi to enter the Holy of Holys on our behalf and make a sacrifice for us. We don't need the Saints or Mary or others to have access to God. So what am I not understanding here?
We can have a direct relationship with God, but it does not mean that our relationship is not communal with the entire Church. The Church is one body, we are many brothers and sisters with the same Father.
Therefore, let us not disregard and ignore our brothers and sisters both here on earth and passed on into heaven, but rejoice in a shared love and unity given through our Lord.
In my own study, as a Calvinist, I have found that the heart of prayer resides in that we would be aligned with the will of God.
Matthew 26:39
"And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.'"
I don’t see how this verse relates to/negates anything said in this video.
@@brodybarcus6366 The title of the video asks the question, "Why do we pray?" I'm responding to that out of my belief
@@matthewnickolay2911 right. So like I said you didn’t respond to the actual video.
We're all aware that Leviticus is the Book of Leviathan, yes?
Hope that puts the sacrifices into perspective.
For your consideration: The irreversible contract.
Genesis 1:28-30 says, "God blessed them (Adam and Eve) and said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.' Then God said, 'Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food. And to every beast of the earth and every bird of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth - everything that has the breath of life in it - I have given every green plant for food.'" And it was so." In other words, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING - NO TAKEBACKS.
In the first sentence, "blessed" denotes delivery of authorization or commissioning like a quality check. It's not a blessing like a hug or pat on the back or, "Hey, good luck with that." How do we know? Because the day before, God said the same thing to the fish and the birds. "Then God blessed them and said, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters of the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.'" But God augmented the blessing on humans. Verse 28: "God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.'"
God didn't give the planet Earth to humans. However, He did give everything that breathes, grows, swims, flies, or crawls on it. Yet, all those things sustain the health of our living planet, and we humans are responsible for every part of it. There's an old church chorus I learned as a child. "He's got the whole world in His hands." But, unfortunately, that's not necessarily so according to the original agreement. WE have the world in OUR hands, and we can't pretend to be victims or blame God when we see how much destruction our species does to it.
Inside this initial contract with humans, there appears to be another principle. God holds back his hands, as it were, to act in our world until we ask. Therefore, we humans must petition, intercede, and call upon God.
2 Chronicles 7:14. "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land." Notice that focused intention and action follow the humble prayer. This principle works whether you believe that there is a God who hears your prayer or not.
Matthew 6:9-10 "So then, this is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.'"
Even Jesus pleaded to the Father to rescind the coming crucifixion. Matthew 26:39. "Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.'" And three verses later, Matthew 26:42 says. "A second time He went away and prayed, 'My Father, if this cup cannot pass unless I drink it, may Your will be done.'" God's will was done.
And thanksgiving is not an option. 1 Thessalonians 5:18 says, "in everything, give thanks..." And Philippians 4:6 says, "Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God."
For your consideration: John of Kronstadt - My Life in Christ
I was thinking on the hierarchical prayer pattern.
A peasant,a lord, and a king came to mind at a lower level.
Father Thomas from Pentiment strikes again. Oh, sweet Tassing you should not worry for your maiden sleep will forever be protected by clever wolves who nourish the souls and bodies of lambs through their sacred spring.
I’m really struggling with the prayers to saints thing. It’s not just praying with the saints or asking them to pray for us or with us. The prayers are often to the saints. Example, prayers to the Theotokos are sometimes filled with ideas of her being our hope, our salvation and deliverer. These seems to be things that only apply to God. It appears as some have gone to far. Can you help explain?
Father Abbot Tryphon taught me how the Greek understanding and definition for prayer, is not understood or translated well into English. There's a few definitions and few different kinds of prayer that exist, and they also stack in a hierarchy. Latria, Dulia, Hyperdulia, etc. Dulia is for the Saints, Hyperdulia is for our Theotokos, and Latria is the only one which is understood as worship. The other two are not elevated as worship, simply kinship or friendship. All Christians should know the many forms of prayer that exist. It should also be noted the Orthodox and Roman Catholic have a different take on Mary, some would say the Latin world goes too far with reverence.
I’m still none the wiser.
The "chain of care" thing makes me think of Bohemian Grove, where the "elites" get together and gather around a giant statue of an owl and carry out a mock human sacrifice in a ritual they call "the cremation of care."
2:26 clothes dryer buzzer cameo
The saints of heaven are still our Elders and somehow the Bible said the prayer of the Elders in faith avails much. If we believe that they are alive and still the best of the body of Christ why not join with them in prayer?
Why stubbornly dividing the body of Christ and excluding the best? Isn’t that a satanic trap?
I am talking about the saints and martyrs of faith, not any dead believers!
Did they stop loving us or forgot about their children? Why so?
If we do not believe they are in heaven and more alive than us on earth, that means we don't really believe there is life after death ... Thus we are fake believers and simple egocentric beggars.
How can someone who died pray for us?
because they are alive in the most truest sense: in Heaven. They can pray for us because they are not non-existence like some atheist nonsense would have you believe
@@achilleuspetreas3828 From my understanding though, I've been taught by the scripture that someone who has died, even a believer in Christ, is now and still resting until the Day of Judgment to be awakened and risen up to Jesus himself, the Judge seated at the Right Hand of God. How is someone who is Resting even in the Name of the Lord going to pray? Do we send prayers to God during our earthly nightly regular sleep cycles?
@@BrotherDuncanGM This is a doctrine called Soul Sleep made up by Ellen White and is very recent. The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man clearly contradicts it.
@@romeisburning6739 I'm a Christian- so do you support this- that I can pray to Lazarus that he may receive my prayer and then pray to Jesus for me? Because from what I've read, Jesus says "Come to me" not "Come to the dead who shall come to me for you"
@@romeisburning6739 And even with these concepts what holds you back from asking Ellen White herself to pray to God on your behalf? come on... I pray to Jesus alone, so I pray to the Father.
Yahwism, the Uncountable, of the broader Levantine polytheism is not the way.
Jezebel stood up to the Yahweh (the Uncountable).
Unfortunately, she was representing the Baals (Lords) of Sidon and Tyre...and not the good Lord (Baal) Hadad.
I love Jonathan but I think he and the Orthodox and Catholics are wrong on this one. Hebrews explicitly says we need no other intercessors, but we have been allowed to be brought directly to God through Christ. I appreciate the need to recognize the communion of the saints which is very powerful but we have no model of prayer in the New Testament that even comes close to this and the ancient church fathers explicitly said that Christians pray only to God and no lesser spirits. If we just had a shred of evidence for this in the New Testament, I would be much more ok with is. Additionally, in common piety, this practice easily becomes idolatrous. Studies have been conducted and Orthodox believers said they prayed more to saints or Mary than to Christ. We do not need to speak to the saints in prayer to be united with them as the Body of Christ. We do need to offer ourselves in prayer to our Father who is already far more generous than to require others to speak on our behalf.
Your logic is circular. You want a shred of evidence from the New Testament without even acknowledging that the New Testament canon was established by the same Church that you don't want to follow in relation to Saints. So they're good enough to tell you what the canon is but not good enough for anything else. I don't know what study you are referring to but if you attend an Orthodox Liturgy you will see that the idea that we pray to Saints more than the Trinity or Christ is simply not true. The same goes for morning or evening prayers you find in our standard prayer books. If you're going to mention things like that you need to ensure you're being precise in your statements.
@@nikola9348 I disagree. The Orthodox church today is far from the same church that assembled the canon. There have been changes and shifts in doctrines and attitudes over time that are obvious in history. The kind of prayer we have modeled by the NT and the Lord Jesus has no sign of asking for prayers from anyone else, and such prayer would have been totally absent in the first century. These things are totally uncontroversial to any historian.
I will admit, however, that my point about common piety is anecdotal at best, but I think it bears out. When we have so many figures vying for our attention, it is easy for Jesus to be concealed. Once again, Hebrews is explicit: Jesus is the only one we need to go straight to God, even to the Holy of Holies.
You can indeed find quotes from the first few centuries saying that Christians pray only to Christ, don't use images, shouldn't use incense, etc. It is easy to read that and think that it means that the Church went astray and we should return to that. The problem with taking this view is that then there are centuries when nobody was practicing "the right way" which means Christ's promise that the Church would not be overcome didn't hold true, which means Christianity itself isn't true. Personally I'm of the view that those quotes are for the most part likely to be referencing local practices in certain areas. And as for the incense, Malachi says that the sign the Gentiles entering the New Covenant is them offering incense to the Most High God. Basically, if the True Church isn't one of the institutions with Apostolic Succession, then Christ's promise wasn't valid and Christianity isn't genuine, because that was how everyone practiced for a very long time indeed.
@@joer9156 This seems to be a shallow view of God's grace and God's promises. I would say the church is constantly astray. We are always getting things wrong because we are human, but God's grace doesn't crumble under our human failings. God abides with us in our failings. He is not limited by our sinfulness, and I would think that God would accept the worship given with purity of heart, however should we remain in our error if we can look back and understand where we went wrong? Just because God is forgiving, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to strive to follow Him as truthfully as we know how?
And even as we get some things wrong, we also get things right! There are some incredible saints and theologians in the medieval age and their awesome piety and thought isn't extinguished because not every aspect of their worship and doctrine is correct. The Holy Spirit has never left the church but that doesn't mean He has protected us from all error.
@@michaelkennedy6759 absolutely the Church isn't protected from all errors, but if there isn't a single person worshipping in the correct way for centuries? That's a big deal.
Sounds like polytheism to me...
John 13:34-35: "A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.”
Sometimes I think Protestant actually don't take the bible literally enough
The polytheistic gods contradict and destroy each other
@@lisaonthemargins how does that verse have anything to do with praying or saint worship? You are assigning partners to God. Thats polytheism.
@@AbdullahMikalRodriguez the word partner is not used anywhere in the video and in any case polytheism is the belief in and worship of multiple Gods. Jonathan is referring to a personal God working synergistically with His creation, not to multiple Gods. This is distinct from the Islamic concept which is that of an impersonal being aloof from his creation.
@@nikola9348 Allah is rabbi alaalameen, cherisher and sustainer of worlds. This doesnt sound very "Aloof" does it? And praying to anyone besides God is assigning partners to him. It is so rediculous to even claim that God is somehow "aloof" in the Islamic tradition yet Christians see themselves as so "not worthy" of God that they feel they must pray to an interceding entity such as a saint... your a polytheist who uses a bunch of neo-platonic jargon to justify your position.