God: “I have given you free will. Enjoy it! It’s the greatest gift ever! Without it, you’d all be mindless zombies. But if you defy me, fail to obey me, violate my commands, or otherwise use your free will in a way I don’t like, I’ll punish you and ensure you suffer!” Christians: “So… in other words, you gave us free will… but the only will we’re free to obey is yours?” God: “Exactly.” Christians: “Seems completely reasonable.”
For shits-n-giggles, God also cursed them to NOT have the free will to be able to not sin, forcing them to fail the test AND because that wasn't enough, he started the scorecard with an unerasable sin, just to be sure. I'll take two!
@@elisawhitman8526 STRAW MAN STRAW MAN (I can hear the Christians shouting) but it's actually far worse, the being people think they must obey is completely in their head. What's worse than an evil dictator, an imaginary evil dictator. Don't trust your next thought.
Mike is a repeat caller who's practically a legend in the AXP Hall of Shame-easily one of the most dishonest callers of all time. Got a direct question? He’s already dodging like he's in the Matrix. Hit him with a solid rebuttal? DODGE! I have to admit, though, there’s a certain comedic value in watching JMike's patience wear thinner with every evasive maneuver. It’s like watching a slow-motion car crash-you know it's a mess, but you can't help but chuckle at the chaos.
It's the only way these type of people function, they don't take in others opinions, just say, "okay, I hear you" bit can't sum up anything you actually said lol
@@sumtingwong8592Yeah, Mike seems to think he's so funny and intelligent that everyone is waiting on pins and needles for his next word. He's his own best entertainment. I would not mind never hearing from him again.
Of god did exist and created the universe but nothing existed before the universe then god must had existed before the universe so my question to Christians would be where is from and how would he existed before the universe?
@@tonyclements1147 he also, apparently created a canine STD (that can infect all canids, not just dogs), from most of the DNA of a brown dog. That's just weird and inexplicable for an omniscient being. Or... and hear me out... evolution did it, starting with a brown dog. It's still weird, but 100% explainable, and the mechanism has been observed in multiple other places. Nah, gotta be God! 🤦
Snakes lost their legs around 100 to 150 million years ago, during the Upper Cretaceous period, but the anonymous author thought it sounded good to “curse” the snake to do what it already had been doing for millions of years. The sad thing is that there are people who *honestly* believe that story was true.
@@tonyclements1147 Even worse, there are people who call the serpent Satan, despite the fact that their holy book doesn't. They extrapolate made-up shit from a book of made-up shit cause some guy told them it was Satan, and rather than reading their holy book, they just go on spewing literal bullshit.
Don't forget it's the reason lions and other carnivores now eat other animals, I've heard Christians say that before "the fall" lions used to eat grass. So I guess God just made them with really big pointy teeth for fun then...that co-incidentally comes in handy now.
@@areid5907 Nah, he knew they'd eventually become carnivores after his toddler children did a thing because they quite literally didn't know it was wrong to go against God. He made them eat grass for a few days as a prank.
Or 3: baby died from cancer; god works in mysterious ways or called to heaven or gods ways are higher than men or whatever lame crap excuse for this great sky wizard not doing jack all as ever. Moral of the story. Everything confirms god, even if it's bad.
@@marknieuweboer8099 but god made those homosapiens...is god an idiot? Because if humans are flawed sinful beings...and they are made in gods image, what does that mean for god.
"God Did Not Create A Lousy World" You can start with the fact that 90% of all people who have ever lived have never heard of this dude with his story book, and he will punish them and send them to hell. I call that very Lousy.
@@justaguy6100 I know, the percentage is a guess. But how far was this book spread, say 400 years ago. And there's this, I know, estimate that there's been about 170 billion people who have lived on this planet till today.
@@justaguy6100It would be far above 90%. Christianity has existed for less than 2,000 years, so nobody born before that heard about the christian god, and until a few centuries ago, Christianity was contained within the Middle East and Europe. Asia, Africa and the Americas had their own religions.
I've heard some Christians say that anyone who has never heard of Jesus, the Bible and God will automatically go to heaven. I then asked whether Christianity would not be right to conceal and remain silent, because that would ensure that everyone would go to heaven. And whether telling people about Jesus doesn't save souls, but condemns them, because then they have heard about Jesus and only now is it possible for them to go to hell. Of course there are no answers to these questions or only contradictory ones.
I've always liked Forrest's line of reasoning with the "negligent parent" analogy. As a parent myself, I noticed almost all parents like to "prank" young kids by giving them a lemon or something sour and then record their reaction. It's funny I suppose, but relatively harmless. Now imagine if your GOD did the exact same thing but this time after you ate it he said "hah now you are forever guilty, you owe me your eternity or you will suffer forever" That's basically the bible story. god set us up with this apple. He thought it would be funny. Good thing none of this is even remotely true. But it's not a good fable. It's a fable about parental abuse. Remember that.
Be fair, you're asking them to make a decision that involves an existential threat: annihilation. You have to lead them to a place in which they realize, as you and I do, that it's an immense and beautiful Universe and just being part of it in the present is amazing.
@@adelMN2 there's nothing theistic or religious about simply believing I am a living thing in this universe and that this universe is cool, and that's a beautiful thing. That's literally just acknowledging the universe we can observe and coming to the conclusion that you enjoy it.
If we really have free will, how can we also have original sin? Apologists make it sound like we're all automatically evil due to this 'original sin', and yet I don't remember CHOOSING, with my free will, to be born that way!
He couldn't answer the question, because he knows if he answers the question honestly then God loses. And he CAN'T even accept that line of reasoning. He knows it doesn't make sense. He knows it isn't morality. He knows it isn't justice. But he is doctrinally committed to pretend that it is, and his wriggling on the hook is the defense mechanism his religion has built to prevent him from ever saying that out loud.
@IUsedToBeCompetentAtStuffI believe it Crawley from the TV show Good Omens starring David Tennant as a demon named Crawley and an angel played by Michael Sheen named Aziraphale
Schopenhauer had the best criticism of Abrahamic faiths. It’s absurd that God could have created such an imperfect world - for purely capricious reasons - and then pat himself on the back and say “job well done!”
Why not , we do it all the time. Rememeber the god of the bible was created in our image. So it's no surprise. People should be taught from very early on to not take the bible as literal. It's sad that it is one of the most popular books in the world and the least understood book in the world at the same time. Someone should write a Book for Christians that gets them to think critically about all the BS. Maybe it can be called(we need something to get Christians really interested in reading it) "The book Satan doesn't want you to read!" And then expose all the BS in the entire bible systematically.
I read a story about a woman who had been in Vietnam in 1969 as a nurse. She was evacuated during the Tet Offensive. As the plane rose about the explosions, smoke and fire in Saigon, she looked down and said out loud, "Why is god letting this happen?" The woman in the aisle seat next to her said, "God's not doing that. We're doing that." There is no god, no satan, no heaven and no hell. There is only this world and the good and evil we do in it.
@@cy-oneNot if a god doesn’t exist. Since you cannot demonstrate any gods exist, or even if it’s possible for any gods to exist, there’s no rational reason to believe in any gods.
God also allowed the serpent to use the serpent's free will to screw everything up. In our world, if the cop sees someone speeding (for example) the cop violates the driver's free will and tries to stop the speeding because of the potential damage - and our laws try to stop the potential damage. In God's case it's like the cop actually knows, not even guesses, that the driver is going to kill someone, but does nothing, because violating free will is not what he wants to do.
Neuroscience is still out on free will. If you ask me, nobody chose to come into existence, nobody got to choose their fetal environment or the political, religious, and socioeconomic culture they were born into and grew up in. Not so much free will in that.
He chose to create the serpent, knowing that if he did, the serpent would rebel. He could have chosen differently. He chose to create Adam and Eve where the serpent would talk to them. He could have chosen differently. He chose to lie to Adam and Eve about the consequences. He could have chosen differently. He chose to create Adam and Eve such that they didn't understand "right" vs "wrong". He could have brought that up. Either he knew what would happen as a direct result of his actions, meaning that the result is what he wanted, or he didn't know what would happen and didn't bother to think it through. Here's what an omnipotent and clever god could have done differently: - Put the tree in Canada, Adam and Eve in Australia, and the serpent on the moon. - Smite the serpent. God does like smiting. - World-Wide-Flood the moon to smite the serpent harder. - Throw asteroids made of water at the serpent to pulverize the moon into molten rock and let the serpent sink into the moon lava as the water sublimates directly from a solid to a gas, explodes, and kills the serpent before the lava does. You wanted a smiting? You got a smiting. - Scramble the serpent and Adam/Eve's language so they couldn't communicate if they did meet. - Staple the serpent's mouth shut. - Fill Adam and Eve's ears with wax so they couldn't hear the serpent. - Not give Adam and Eve hearing at all. - Play really really *really* loud rock-and-roll, like in a nightclub where you can't hear the person beside you talking. Everywhere. - Make the fruit smell like a durian so they would recoil and not eat it. - Surround the tree with a moat filled with far less friendly snakes. - Make the tree so tall that Adam and Eve couldn't climb it due to hypoxia. - Make the tree so flimsy that neither Adam nor Eve could climb it. - Staple Adam and Eve's mouths shut. - Not give Adam and Eve hands and feet. - Make them too big and fat and lazy to climb the insanely tall and insanely flimsy tree that they can't grip without hands and feet. - Grab an early draft of the Geneva convention and sign it, as it explicitly prohibits punishing groups of people for the crimes of a small number of them. - Say "oops, my bad, you can have a second chance, I promise I'll do better this time", taking responsibility for the mess he created. - Make it so that Adam and Eve turn to stone at night, and the serpent turns to stone during the day, so they'd interact but never have a conversation. - Exist. He set everything in motion, then threw a tantrum that what he knew would happen did happen, and is randomly punishing people that didn't exist at the time and had nothing to do with it.
thedave1771: "He chose to create Adam and Eve such that they didn't understand "right" vs "wrong". He could have brought that up." Or at least God should of explained the consequences of their actions to them such that if they eat of the forbidden fruit they will not only cause death to themselves but to others as well. Details and gravitas should of mattered there since the well being of around 116 billion souls would be put to jeopardy. So God is not the author of confusion even if God leaves out important matters of life or death types of information?
It certainly isn't a "lousy" world. See how there's a species of parasitic wasps that sting and paralyze a caterpillar and lays an egg on it. Then that caterpillar is eaten alive? _Obviously_ perfect design.
Parasites, cancer, brittle bone disease, a species of boars that has tusks growing so long that it can impale itself...perfectlyy designed and all going according to divine plan! 🤣🤣🤣
I'm particularily fond of the intelligent design decision that led to the existence of the ophiocordyceps unilateralis. How much of a colossal POS do you have to be to design something like that? Or how about frickin prions. Such awesome design.
I would like to formally apologize for causing war and cancer and starvation. If there was anything I could have done to prevent it I would have. Sorry I failed you, god.
If a 'god' made such a statement it would open the doors for a whole lot more indictments. He and his lawyers would probably be against making such a statement. God is supposedly omnipotent, so there is nothing he cannot do. God is supposedly omniscient so he can't not know. That means he knew and chose to let the thing go down. That makes him a lot like some crusty old tent dwelling elder who has little to no compassion for his people, but decides to control them with fear of rejection, death and eternal torture. I'm certainly glad a god does not exist. What a horrible world that would be! Even the non-existent god causes thousands of unnecessary deaths yearly. It's a lousy world due to the man-created gods and their various horrible rules and laws.
Forrest, great opening, great logic and very entertaining. I am known in my local pub, where I always go on a Monday, as the Atheist. I will try this reasoning next Monday. Thanks.
No. That's not why Jesus suffered for our sins. In the old testament, people who sinned were headed for hell, separation from God for eternity. God is a God of justice and if we do wrong, evil things, there are consequences. But God, despite having made that ruling, didn't want us to go to hell so He made a way so that we have an opportunity to say sorry and come back to God through Jesus Christ. At the moment that Jesus was dying on the cross, He took on the sins of the world, from the past and the future. He paid the price we should have paid, so that we didn't owe anyone at that point. We were freed from the build up of our wrong doings. Not so that we can build it up again but that we can keep short accounts. So, say I realise that I have sworn or thought a wicked thought, I can ask God, in that moment, for forgiveness and be free from punishment on the final day. Hope this helps from a Christian perspective.
@@tonyclements1147 Except he set up the reality, and he wrote the script, so he already knows what’s going to happen. And there’s no audience except him. The only people who don’t know what’s going to happen are the cast.
@@HoneyTone-TheSearchContinues yeah... he's like the whole production crew from writer, executive to director. Everything that happens on the show is precisely what he wants to happen :D
@@tonyclements1147 It's more like a pet terrarium. Just ants in the ant farm, according to every religion with any god ever. They call this a "worldview" and think it is profound.
Like a child playing with toy soldiers. He knows which soldier will fall, survive, be a hero, villain or coward. Christianity is a game of toy soldiers!
Two fails on Earth aside, If heaven was so great, where did lucifer's 'pride' come from? Why did a 3rd of the angels join him? Where's the track record of success that tells Mike some future heaven won't implode too? Sounds like a made up story of a cosmic tinkerer buddy, not a perfect 'god'.
Moral dilemmas stem from two evolved behavioral traits that increase our chances that the community survives and procreates. The first trait is being selfish and looking after our own well-being. This one is obvious. The second trait is looking after the well-being of the rest of our community. This not only helps ensure my survival but the survival of the genes I share with those I am related to. The problem that arises is that these inevitably conflict. Often my well-being suffers when I put someone else's before mine and vice versa. This hypothesis best explains the struggle we have between being selfish and being altruistic. In some people, these traits are passed on in an unbalanced way. Some people are totally selfish psychopaths who have no empathy and others that are so empathetic that they are dysfunctional. I don't know of any theist argument that explains this struggle anywhere near as well.
And if you end up in hell it's still somehow your fault even though it was a fact that you'd go to hell long before you even existed in the first place.
I love you guys! I know it's hard (happens to me all the time) but remember to keep your cool and stay respectful. The three of you together are like the Three Rings of Power; too much power so close together can be overwhelming which might deter believers from calling. Maybe set the stage at the start with the "rules" of the conversation e.g. "must answer each question" to continue but if that doesn't happen, just calmly move to the next caller. But otherwise I love seeing you three together; it's like an All Star Team! Thank you so much for what you do!
Yesterday, I heard a preacher argue that the perfect god can't create a perfect world for that would mean it is on par with god. And my immediate thought was: How could a perfect being create an imperfect world? A perfect being would necessarily create perfect worlds or it wouldn't be a perfect being. The caller is trying to dance the same dance: Perfect god has to create an imperfect world because it is perfect to be imperfect.
"And my immediate thought was: How could a perfect being create an imperfect world? A perfect being would necessarily create perfect worlds or it wouldn't be a perfect being." We'll probably need to define "perfect". If we use the definition "without error" then a perfect being could purposefully create an imperfect world (perfectly). Just because a being is perfect doesn't mean all of it's product will be perfect, just that it will be produced perfectly - imperfections and all! If we use the definition of "pure good" then that will in turn be left to interpretation/definition. Can a "pure good" being create a non-pure-good world in order to achieve "greater good"? I would assume so, since a non-pure-good world could be neutral and not evil, and thus should be available to a "pure good" being, no?
@@usa-ev Logical error: Equivocation. A perfect being is perfect in all ways or it isn't perfect. The typical concept of "god," especially in the context of the specific caller, is that god is perfectly good. Yes, a perfectly evil god would create a world of corruption and suffering. But that isn't the god that is under consideration. Of course, a "perfect" being has no need of anything and thus wouldn't create anything. If it had needs or wants or desires, it wouldn't be perfect.
@@dhwyll "Logical error: Equivocation. " By whom? Hopefully you don't mean me and my efforts to define and disambiguate the discussion as that would be the opposite of equivocation. "A perfect being is perfect in all ways or it isn't perfect. " I disagree, I'd say perfect things can have many forms similar to infinities. So for example you can have an infinite series of odd numbers, but it will never include an even number even though it is infinite. A puppy could be perfect without needing to be a god. [BTW, such a perfect puppy could be created by a perfect god or an imperfect god.] "The typical concept of "god," especially in the context of the specific caller, is that god is perfectly good. " OK, that's why I included this definition in my first comment. I think such a god could still create non-perfectly good things without issue because, at a minimum, the set of non-perfectly good things includes neutral things. "Of course, a "perfect" being has no need of anything and thus wouldn't create anything. If it had needs or wants or desires, it wouldn't be perfect." A perfect puppy would want to lick your face and love you. Perhaps a perfect god would too.
@@usa-ev Yes, by you. You're trying to redefine what "perfect" means in this context so that you can weasel out of the problem. Indeed, real objects can be "perfect" in one sense and imperfect in another. The perfect screwdriver is a very imperfect hammer. We're talking about "god," however, in the context of someone claiming that this "god" object is incapable of making mistakes. Thus, your attempt to redefine "perfect" in the context of "perfect for certain applications but not others" is equivocation. In the context of this discussion, "perfect" means for *all* applications. Since we, imperfect as we are, can see how things could easily be better, the "god" object in question clearly cannot survive its definition of "perfection." Such a "perfect" being would have no need to create anything because a "perfect" being has no desires, being perfect. And even if we could convince of a scenario in which it did create something, it would do so perfectly for to allow imperfection would mean it isn't perfect. "But the imperfections are intended!" I hear you cry. Then they aren't imperfections. If you meant it and you're perfect, then those were conscious decisions, not accidents. If you didn't mean it, then they're accidents and you're not perfect. Which means the evil and suffering is baked in by design. Which means the "perfect" being who is "perfectly good" specifically and purposefully created evil. Which means it isn't perfectly good because we, imperfect as we are, can recognize that the system could be designed without the imperfections. If you want to reduce "god" to an incredibly powerful but bumbling engineer (just read Genesis for evidence of the incompetence of the "god" character), then go right ahead. And simply have the courage to say that said "god" is not perfect. Not in any way.
@@dhwyll Ah, well, you've misunderstood my intentions, and I've misunderstood yours, both of which are my fault. You are correct that I completely ignored the God context in which you were asking your question. My bad, and it wasn't even intentional, it's so plain that the perfect God "for all applications" is self-contradictory and impossible by definition, that I didn't even give it a passing thought. I was instead trying to explore some logical branches that could at least be logically consistent. So, sorry about that, I see now that you're not interested in that so please disregard.
@@logicalmuslim1590 How can these weakling gods exist if they can't even muster the power to speak on their own behalf? And why do we always only hear from them through the dirty mouths of mewling quims pointing at the sky and trying to sound wise about things like which hand to wipe their asses with?
@@OceanusHelios hateful rhetoric. Did you think that Muhammad peace be upon him had access to toilet paper? The Sunnah is the example of the prophet, how he did things. Clean your butt with water with your left hand. Eat only with your right hand. Subhanallah.
Why is it that Atheists know deities way better than theists? Theists seem not to know a thing about the deities they believe in, as Mike demonstrated. Mike was very ignorant about his beliefs...good on the Atheists for keeping Mike accountable for his beliefs in the deity he believes in..
It’s because deities are not what people are trying to find in religion. They are looking for cheap camaraderie, unearned political capital, a cheat code for social cohesion, an identity, and so on. The magical nonsense is just the cost they bear to obtain the rest.
Atheists Keep asking Questions perhaps? Try asking theists what the world was like Before Deities became Folklore's and watch the tapdancing they do to Deflect
When I was being taught about Christianity what first struck me is we were told "Jesus saved us", but it is not exactly true. Jesus ONLY saves us if we believe he is son of God, etc, etc, etc. That is not "saving!" A fireman who rescues people from burning buildings doesn't require them to believe in him first. If Jesus did save us from "our sins" he should have had the decency to do so unconditionally, without Ts and Cs! But of course, it is just a story, which is why it makes zero sense.
God intended for us to have free will. So why doesn't he intervene when one person takes away and person's free will via slavery, rape, or other forms of being forced to partake in unlawful activities?
@@t800fantasm2 I'm honestly surprised the channel lasted so long. By this point you'd think it would've been deleted due to spamming the same 5 comments everywhere. Instead, it's healthily heading to 3 years of existence.
The way you have to constantly beat him back on topic reminds me of how octopi will punch their hunting buddies to keep them humble and make them share.
Yep. That's basically like deliberately genetically engineering all of your your children such that they have a 99% change of having *Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva,* (an incurable, excruciating, debilitating and ultimately fatal disease where your muscles turn into bone, to the point you cannot breathe anymore). Except, in the divine version, there is no end.
@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2 It is like writing a program to output "You, the person reading this, are the worst!" and getting mad at the program you wrote to output that.
@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2 And now I am picturing a guy savagely beating his PC with a bat after his code does exactly what he told it to do before slowly panning his gaze around the room to the rest of his electronics and saying "...and let that be a lesson to the rest of you!"
Forrest describing Adam and Eve as toddlers, makes me think of "blanket training." If you're not familiar, blanket training is a popular child rearing strategy in extreme evangelical communities, where they put a baby on a blanket and wait for it to crawl off. Then they hit the baby. They repeat it until the baby stays on the blanket. I wish I were joking. I think one of the more subtly damaging things that's not addressed frequently enough in discussing religion is how these authoritarian beliefs are reflected in a believer's values. If you accept that it's ok to hit a baby for something it doesn't know is wrong (skip right past hitting a baby for any reason), I guess maybe Adam and Eve being punished for eating bad fruit doesn't sound so ludicrous. And if you accept and worship a god who does something like that, you're going to raise your kids with the belief that obedience is the same thing as morality.
As a former Christian who has read the entire Bible and studied it in every way that I could find to do so, I still never understood why it’s important to the god of the Bible that everybody struggle through a word of horrific depravity because of their free will (even though the Bible never mentions free will a single time and clearly talks about God creating people just to be “vessels of wrath” and making them incapable of not sinning or even repenting so that god can get glory from it), but apparently it’s all okay because in heaven people can’t sin, so we won’t have free will anyway.
I am so happy my mother stuck with a historical family name (no, not that one) passed down in our Welsh heritage. My middle name is Darwin. Although I had teasing as a kid in school (popular cartoon character, sang "Oh my darlin, oh my darlin .Clementine" I would hear "oh my darwin oh my darwin", and to a 6 year old, the taunting led to a slight emotional scar. Later, when I was 9, My dad died in an accident, the neighbor shot my pet dog ( it was ALMOST on his property). and my favorite aunt died a few days later. There was tons of god talk the Christmas before, I discovered that Santa was made up. Also, I watched (on PBS) the Irish comedian DAVE ALLEN talk about religion. I became an atheist overnight and could no longer believe in anything imaginary. By age 14, I was shunned by my father's side of the family, my grandfather found out I had a pet python, and snuck in when we were out (he lived across the road) and killed it. He lectured me on handling Satan's instrument, and that Christmas, mom, feeling bad about the incident, contacted the friend breeding snakes, and got me (instead of a baby) a 10 footer that I proudly displayed on the front porch that spring to the disgust of my grand parents. I was the only grand child taken out of their wills.
It could have been worse. You could have turned into one of them and could have given your brain away and had it replaced by this worldview where we were the pets of their gods, and could have lived your life sniveling and groveling and bootlicking against your own interests.
The GREAT thing about being non-religious, is that you get to take FULL responsibility! For Everything! No wiggle room to put the blame elsewhere! The buck starts.. And stops with you! No excuses! Now... If you don't like that, then that means that mentally and emotionally, you're still just a child!
I really appreciate mike bringing up the fact that we can live in a world where free will exists but evil doesn't happen, because God can always intervene between the choice and the outcome. It reminds me of Watchmen, when the Comedian guns down the pregnant Vietnamese woman, and he tells Dr. Manhattan that he also had the choice to turn the bottle into snowflakes, but didn't do so. God has all the power to allow people to make evil decisions and still not actualize evil in the world because the choice and the outcome are not the same thing.
A God that brought everything into existence, basically dragging all of us into his personal universal shit show, has nobody but himself to blame for creating everything just the way it is.
Maybe god is like Eren from Attack on Titan: he is super powerful and knows everything, but he has no ability to change his own shitty, evil decisions, nor understand them.
Forrest's monologue about Adam and Eve eating the apple, and not knowing it was wrong, and god knowing they were gonna do it and put it there anyway and THEN proceeded to punish them was awesome And then Jmike's comment about involuntarily taking on the punishment of adam and eve is amazing too And then Secular's comment about being apparently too busy to help people who pray over their dying child, but will apparently help a whole city if they choose to repent
Also he made the serpent and allowed it into the garden. The whole story is a setup. And Cain and Able, is just as mind boggling: Why did god only took Ables sacrifice? Doesn't a farmer work freaking hard for their produce? With stoneage tools? Being a sheep herder, sound kind of relaxing in comparison. And still he favored Able, and didn't even explain himself! Imagine your two children bring you presents they made themself, who, who in the world would ever go and do that to their children? And then there was the tower of Bable. God is either an a$$hole or incompetent. Or both.
@@vertigo4236 i dont know the story of cain and able so id have to google, but i do know babel. "Hey guys, lets build a tower to get close to god" and then god said "not happening you pricks. Good luck trying to do stuff together when you cant speak the same language". Has there ever been ANY god EVER, that WASNT a dick to mortals?
@@earendilthemariner5546 That is not actually what is happening in that story. “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.” They didn't want to reach god, they wanted to work together, and what did god do? "But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” He knew, that if humans work togther, they didn't need him. So he scattered and confused them. The story is always told differently to believers, because the original in the Bible makes god sound aweful. go read the complete Genesis 11:1-9
1. The supposedly omniscient God did not know humans were incapable of building a tower “whose top may reach unto heaven.” 2. The supposedly omniscient God did not KNOW that there were already multiple languages. Gen 10: 5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. God must have forgotten about this verse. No linguist believes that different languages originated with the dispersion of Noah’s sons or the dispersion of the peoples of Babel. Both stories are fables.
Whenever good things happen, he's to be praised. When bad things happen, it's someone else's fault. He's all-knowing and all-powerful because he cannot be seen as weak, yet he also bears none of the responsibility of the state of the world. He craves worship and admiration above all else, potentially absolving horrific sins so long as you dedicate yourself to his worship. God is the original narcissist archetype.
I find it crazy how when someone wins the lottery whose done nothing holy in their life are worthy of gods blessing yet a buddy of mine who loves the bible, goes to church almost everyday and even donates to charity when he can. Lost his 2 year old baby girl literally over night after she screamed in pain for hours and this man prayed and cried and god said fuck you shes mine now. You know what he said the reason was "god had a better plan for her". Fuck god for letting people suffer and allowing others to be brainwashed
3:50 entire segment is insightful. I never thought about this point, how was Adam and Eve supposed to know what good and evil are without having first partaken from the tree? how would they know disobeying god was wrong if they don’t know what wrong was yet? If they don’t know sin until after the fruit was eaten?
The entire bible is one long string of assertions and no acknowledgments that there were other options or better explanations for anything. Critical thinking requires a person to do more than just look at what is there, but to also look at what is missing and approach it without the intent to just believe it or for the sake of watching a movie playing in our heads.
It's so much easier, it solves all the confusion, if you just remove all your conceptions about "god", do your best to be respectful of others, promote general happiness, and create a society that figures out an acceptable policy about dealing individuals who are so abusive and violent that no one knows how to heal their minds. But the difficulty with this is that whenever something REALLY doesn't go well, it seems like there is always somebody wanting revenge. Somebody, some people insisting on punishment rather than healing the miscreat or putting them in a place where they can do no harm. -- If only the "justice system" were really just. That, instead of using it to enslave people we feel are just inferior, "just because they are!", it is said. That really means I don't want them having equal respect, I want to hold on to MY priviledge. And I can't think of any way of looking at things exept that "if you have a piece of the pie, I won't get enough." What's wrong with this thinking? Well for starters, that supposed inferior miscreant, might actually be capable of making sure there are plenty of pies for everybody. Or their child might, if given a chance. And meanwhile, you keep suppressing that niggling thought that what you are doing isn't fair treatment. So you excuse yourself by turn it into fear of the person not just like you. And justify yourself. And teach your children that these other people are dangerous just for existing and breathing. And so, your children trust you and don't think for themselves. Or you punish them for disrespecting your teachings. And THAT, dear reader, is exactly what a racist does. What class separation does. It appears to make like easier for the elite or the "in-crowd". But it always involves excessive control of some of the people. Think! How many times this kind of thinking resulted in oppression, bloodshed, disasters? And yet, it still seems to be a preferred tool of the would-be and actual tyrants of the world. --- And it seems they always know how to disinform a mass of unthinking people to support them. And this, dear reader is what the USA stands on the brink of. Not all kings are actual tyrants, but all kings are in a separate class from the people. And the transition from king to tyrant has been perfomred more times in the history of human life than anyone knows. And in the USA, we have a situation where a proven tyrant would be king --and tyrant again. And the masses remain fooled. And who are the abused and down trodden? He says it the immigrants. Yes, they are abused and downtrodded, that is why they are immigrants. They come here to escape that, and to do well. The question is ours: Will we let them? Or will be abuse them? We can see them as opportunities, helpers, or we can abuse them and live with less self respect. Self justification may seem like a warm blanket, but it's really a slowly building bonfire of harsh retaliation. It's better all around to enjoy a life of kindness for newcomers. There ARE plenty of jobs.
According to most theists, yes. Its a fallen/broken world full of sin. Thankfully God included Atheism 🙏 And a good Wednesday Morning 🌞 AXP Fans and Theists ❤❤❤ Peace Love Empathy From Australia 💪🤠☝️
Theist dishonesty when it comes to answering questions is ridiculous, their inability to answer yes or no questions is so frustrating cause they know their personal god doesn’t exist
If you are a spider, your only way to survive is to subject other animals to a brutal gruesome horrifying death. If the world was perfect before the fall of man, were spiders created after?
I mean spiders are vital to the eco system in which they live and while it may be gruesome they do serve a great purpose. We would genuinely be screwed as a planet without spiders. No one ever said nature was pretty, as evidenced by all the horrible things that even humans do to each other
@@jackwhitbread4583 But the point is: God, being God and having total control over the laws of nature, could have created the world in a way were that wasn't necessary.
This video reminded me of something that bothered me for a long time when I was a Christian: how can a perfect omni -present -potent -scient God, as described in the Bible, nitpick over so many irrelevant, arbitrary, and sometimes absurd laws, while failing to endorse (or worse, endorsing the opposite of) laws that should exist in the Bible because they actually would benefit humanity and/or our planetary home? It was one of the many questions/concerns that eventually led me to leave religion altogether. I can't honestly say I'm an atheist now, but I'm close: agnostic with a vague sense of pantheism.
I love how each and every Christian apologist has a pathological aversion to yes or no questions. They absolutely can not allow themselves to answer them. When the question is being formulated you can smell their fear, especially if it's slightly different to what they've prepared themselves for, so they have to play for time to think of the potential pitfalls in how they can respond.
"Lousy" wouldn't really be the right word. More like irrational. For one thing, humans did not create a reality where most life forms `must` consume other living organisms, just to survive. We didn't create the struggle, and suffering is absolutely not limited to humans. It makes sense in a natural world where whatever can be, will be, however the plan of an omni everything god? That's not a compelling concept to say the least.
Mike exhibits the typical Fear based clinging to a daddy god that promises egoic immortality/heaven which leads what would otherwise be sensible people to willingly adopt ridiculous mythologies that depend on the gullibility of faith to sustain them :all coming out of a mostly subconsciouly buried Fear of facing a natural death...
How are men to blame when God specifically put the tree within range of men, and without giving men the understanding of right and wrong, with God fully knowing what men would do, tempted them with the tree's fruit for an undisclosed amount of time, which according to the Bible could be 1 day or a trillion years? And then it's our fault for not knowing better? No, if God went to deity school, he'd get an F.
Wow! So that's how delightfully chill the end of a clip can be, _absend_ a station call of an "executive producer's" cringy jokes, made especially painful by said station-caller's magnificent debating skills. Or maybe its just me who gets cringe-shocked out of the debate-clip vibe by it, at that channel?
It’s depraved indifference. The garden of Eden is basically god leaving a loaded gun next to 2 three year olds.
I don’t know a single story where God is the good guy. He seems to always be the other guy.
God: “I have given you free will. Enjoy it! It’s the greatest gift ever! Without it, you’d all be mindless zombies. But if you defy me, fail to obey me, violate my commands, or otherwise use your free will in a way I don’t like, I’ll punish you and ensure you suffer!”
Christians: “So… in other words, you gave us free will… but the only will we’re free to obey is yours?”
God: “Exactly.”
Christians: “Seems completely reasonable.”
For shits-n-giggles, God also cursed them to NOT have the free will to be able to not sin, forcing them to fail the test AND because that wasn't enough, he started the scorecard with an unerasable sin, just to be sure.
I'll take two!
Lol yup
@@elisawhitman8526 STRAW MAN STRAW MAN (I can hear the Christians shouting) but it's actually far worse, the being people think they must obey is completely in their head. What's worse than an evil dictator, an imaginary evil dictator. Don't trust your next thought.
Mike is a repeat caller who's practically a legend in the AXP Hall of Shame-easily one of the most dishonest callers of all time. Got a direct question? He’s already dodging like he's in the Matrix. Hit him with a solid rebuttal? DODGE! I have to admit, though, there’s a certain comedic value in watching JMike's patience wear thinner with every evasive maneuver. It’s like watching a slow-motion car crash-you know it's a mess, but you can't help but chuckle at the chaos.
Well said!
I will say that making jmike lose their patience is impressive.
It's the only way these type of people function, they don't take in others opinions, just say, "okay, I hear you" bit can't sum up anything you actually said lol
@@sumtingwong8592Yeah, Mike seems to think he's so funny and intelligent that everyone is waiting on pins and needles for his next word. He's his own best entertainment. I would not mind never hearing from him again.
@@duskyrose9243
They're a better advocate for rejecting Christianity than any opposing argument the atheists or other theists need.
The title is true, god did not create anything because god does not exists
Of course
If he or she does exist they just don’t give a shit about our World.
@@terryquinn7765 How dare you assume God has a gender? :D
Of god did exist and created the universe but nothing existed before the universe then god must had existed before the universe so my question to Christians would be where is from and how would he existed before the universe?
@@sfprivateer i mean as far as you're aware god could be a floating rock
The caller is either a. Faking it, b. Never talked to a non Christian ever, or c. Never thought about what he believes.
C., or your average theist.
C is readilly apparent as the answer to many of these people. Such an interesting anomaly
Could be all 3.🤣
Oh, he's talked to non-christians before. He knows a lot of how they're going to respond to his claims, and the questions they'll ask.
All of the above plus the "I can't possibly be wrong" predisposition.
If god created lice, then it created a lousy world! 😂
Comment of the day.
You win.
He supposedly created STDs too.
That's just awful! 🤦
Please continue! 😂
@@tonyclements1147 he also, apparently created a canine STD (that can infect all canids, not just dogs), from most of the DNA of a brown dog. That's just weird and inexplicable for an omniscient being.
Or... and hear me out... evolution did it, starting with a brown dog. It's still weird, but 100% explainable, and the mechanism has been observed in multiple other places.
Nah, gotta be God! 🤦
Our earliest female common ancestor was persuaded to eat an apple by a talking snake so it’s therefore our fault that babies get cancer. Got it?
Snakes lost their legs around 100 to 150 million years ago, during the Upper Cretaceous period, but the anonymous author thought it sounded good to “curse” the snake to do what it already had been doing for millions of years.
The sad thing is that there are people who *honestly* believe that story was true.
@@tonyclements1147 Even worse, there are people who call the serpent Satan, despite the fact that their holy book doesn't. They extrapolate made-up shit from a book of made-up shit cause some guy told them it was Satan, and rather than reading their holy book, they just go on spewing literal bullshit.
Don't forget it's the reason lions and other carnivores now eat other animals, I've heard Christians say that before "the fall" lions used to eat grass. So I guess God just made them with really big pointy teeth for fun then...that co-incidentally comes in handy now.
@@areid5907 Nah, he knew they'd eventually become carnivores after his toddler children did a thing because they quite literally didn't know it was wrong to go against God. He made them eat grass for a few days as a prank.
@@areid5907
I've never heard that BS before and wow just wow
Yup, it's an all important creationist law.
1. Something good: praise the Lord.
2. Something bad: blame Homo Sapiens.
Or 3: baby died from cancer; god works in mysterious ways or called to heaven or gods ways are higher than men or whatever lame crap excuse for this great sky wizard not doing jack all as ever. Moral of the story. Everything confirms god, even if it's bad.
Babies dying from cancer is the result of Original Sin, so Homo Sapiens is to be blamed.
@@marknieuweboer8099 but god made those homosapiens...is god an idiot? Because if humans are flawed sinful beings...and they are made in gods image, what does that mean for god.
"God Did Not Create A Lousy World"
You can start with the fact that 90% of all people who have ever lived have never heard of this dude with his story book, and he will punish them and send them to hell. I call that very Lousy.
Percentage _might_ be off but yeah, it's a hefty percentage.
Its not off though,Christianity is only 2 thousand years old and modern humans have existed for more than 300 thousand years.@@justaguy6100
@@justaguy6100 I know, the percentage is a guess. But how far was this book spread, say 400 years ago. And there's this, I know, estimate that there's been about 170 billion people who have lived on this planet till today.
@@justaguy6100It would be far above 90%. Christianity has existed for less than 2,000 years, so nobody born before that heard about the christian god, and until a few centuries ago, Christianity was contained within the Middle East and Europe. Asia, Africa and the Americas had their own religions.
I've heard some Christians say that anyone who has never heard of Jesus, the Bible and God will automatically go to heaven.
I then asked whether Christianity would not be right to conceal and remain silent, because that would ensure that everyone would go to heaven.
And whether telling people about Jesus doesn't save souls, but condemns them, because then they have heard about Jesus and only now is it possible for them to go to hell.
Of course there are no answers to these questions or only contradictory ones.
I've always liked Forrest's line of reasoning with the "negligent parent" analogy.
As a parent myself, I noticed almost all parents like to "prank" young kids by giving them a lemon or something sour and then record their reaction.
It's funny I suppose, but relatively harmless.
Now imagine if your GOD did the exact same thing but this time after you ate it he said "hah now you are forever guilty, you owe me your eternity or you will suffer forever"
That's basically the bible story. god set us up with this apple. He thought it would be funny.
Good thing none of this is even remotely true. But it's not a good fable. It's a fable about parental abuse. Remember that.
These people will never answer a straight question. All because of their imaginary friend
Be fair, you're asking them to make a decision that involves an existential threat: annihilation. You have to lead them to a place in which they realize, as you and I do, that it's an immense and beautiful Universe and just being part of it in the present is amazing.
They don’t answer because they know the answers will expose there flawed beliefs…
@@wesstubbs3472 The fear of a natural death twists the x-tian mind into belief in ridiculous fallacies...
@@wesstubbs3472 yep that's basically pantheism you're no different than the people you are criticizing
@@adelMN2 there's nothing theistic or religious about simply believing I am a living thing in this universe and that this universe is cool, and that's a beautiful thing. That's literally just acknowledging the universe we can observe and coming to the conclusion that you enjoy it.
Saying “you’re not gonna like my answer” never adds anything useful to these conversations
"you’re not gonna like my answer" MEANS => A bull sh 1t canned answer that every brainwashed apologetic Xtian will give is coming up.
.
lolz
If we really have free will, how can we also have original sin? Apologists make it sound like we're all automatically evil due to this 'original sin', and yet I don't remember CHOOSING, with my free will, to be born that way!
Exactly lol.
He couldn't answer the question, because he knows if he answers the question honestly then God loses. And he CAN'T even accept that line of reasoning.
He knows it doesn't make sense. He knows it isn't morality. He knows it isn't justice. But he is doctrinally committed to pretend that it is, and his wriggling on the hook is the defense mechanism his religion has built to prevent him from ever saying that out loud.
Yep.
There's a fair few posters like that here.
They tend to end up deleting their threads or ranting about persecution
The power of childhood brainwashing.
I have it on authority equal to any Bible that the serpent's name was Crawley, not Satan.
Nice guy once you get to know him.
Just don’t mess with his car.
@IUsedToBeCompetentAtStuffI believe it Crawley from the TV show Good Omens starring David Tennant as a demon named Crawley and an angel played by Michael Sheen named Aziraphale
Mr. Crowley, won't you come out to play...
Oh it’s so cute how they dodge the questions in order to avoid the logical conclusion
The serpent's name was Jesus.
It's true "God did not creat a lousy world" You have to exist to creat something.
Funny how God can't even reply here to anyone's UA-cam comment, but can write the bible.......
I really enjoy listening to 3 very intelligent young guys like you. It gives me hope for our future.
Schopenhauer had the best criticism of Abrahamic faiths. It’s absurd that God could have created such an imperfect world - for purely capricious reasons - and then pat himself on the back and say “job well done!”
Why not , we do it all the time.
Rememeber the god of the bible was created in our image. So it's no surprise.
People should be taught from very early on to not take the bible as literal. It's sad that it is one of the most popular books in the world and the least understood book in the world at the same time.
Someone should write a Book for Christians that gets them to think critically about all the BS. Maybe it can be called(we need something to get Christians really interested in reading it)
"The book Satan doesn't want you to read!" And then expose all the BS in the entire bible systematically.
9:31 I love how they all say "just answer the question" at the same time
Nailed it. This is best argument I’ve heard from you all and it’s right at the beginning.. love it!
I read a story about a woman who had been in Vietnam in 1969 as a nurse. She was evacuated during the Tet Offensive. As the plane rose about the explosions, smoke and fire in Saigon, she looked down and said out loud, "Why is god letting this happen?" The woman in the aisle seat next to her said, "God's not doing that. We're doing that."
There is no god, no satan, no heaven and no hell. There is only this world and the good and evil we do in it.
I mean, an answer *just* as valid (just necessarily sound :D) would've been "Because it's God's plan for us to do this."
@@cy-oneNot if a god doesn’t exist. Since you cannot demonstrate any gods exist, or even if it’s possible for any gods to exist, there’s no rational reason to believe in any gods.
@@reefhog Sure. I just "met them where they're at."
In the bible the god character says "I God create evil"
@@areid5907 Of course - god IS satan and satan IS god.
99.999999999% of the universe is hostile to life, how isnt that a lousy universe if god created it for us if we can't use/live in most of it?
Word
God also allowed the serpent to use the serpent's free will to screw everything up. In our world, if the cop sees someone speeding (for example) the cop violates the driver's free will and tries to stop the speeding because of the potential damage - and our laws try to stop the potential damage. In God's case it's like the cop actually knows, not even guesses, that the driver is going to kill someone, but does nothing, because violating free will is not what he wants to do.
Neuroscience is still out on free will. If you ask me, nobody chose to come into existence, nobody got to choose their fetal environment or the political, religious, and socioeconomic culture they were born into and grew up in. Not so much free will in that.
EXACTLY
He chose to create the serpent, knowing that if he did, the serpent would rebel. He could have chosen differently.
He chose to create Adam and Eve where the serpent would talk to them. He could have chosen differently.
He chose to lie to Adam and Eve about the consequences. He could have chosen differently.
He chose to create Adam and Eve such that they didn't understand "right" vs "wrong". He could have brought that up.
Either he knew what would happen as a direct result of his actions, meaning that the result is what he wanted, or he didn't know what would happen and didn't bother to think it through.
Here's what an omnipotent and clever god could have done differently:
- Put the tree in Canada, Adam and Eve in Australia, and the serpent on the moon.
- Smite the serpent. God does like smiting.
- World-Wide-Flood the moon to smite the serpent harder.
- Throw asteroids made of water at the serpent to pulverize the moon into molten rock and let the serpent sink into the moon lava as the water sublimates directly from a solid to a gas, explodes, and kills the serpent before the lava does. You wanted a smiting? You got a smiting.
- Scramble the serpent and Adam/Eve's language so they couldn't communicate if they did meet.
- Staple the serpent's mouth shut.
- Fill Adam and Eve's ears with wax so they couldn't hear the serpent.
- Not give Adam and Eve hearing at all.
- Play really really *really* loud rock-and-roll, like in a nightclub where you can't hear the person beside you talking. Everywhere.
- Make the fruit smell like a durian so they would recoil and not eat it.
- Surround the tree with a moat filled with far less friendly snakes.
- Make the tree so tall that Adam and Eve couldn't climb it due to hypoxia.
- Make the tree so flimsy that neither Adam nor Eve could climb it.
- Staple Adam and Eve's mouths shut.
- Not give Adam and Eve hands and feet.
- Make them too big and fat and lazy to climb the insanely tall and insanely flimsy tree that they can't grip without hands and feet.
- Grab an early draft of the Geneva convention and sign it, as it explicitly prohibits punishing groups of people for the crimes of a small number of them.
- Say "oops, my bad, you can have a second chance, I promise I'll do better this time", taking responsibility for the mess he created.
- Make it so that Adam and Eve turn to stone at night, and the serpent turns to stone during the day, so they'd interact but never have a conversation.
- Exist.
He set everything in motion, then threw a tantrum that what he knew would happen did happen, and is randomly punishing people that didn't exist at the time and had nothing to do with it.
thedave1771: "He chose to create Adam and Eve such that they didn't understand "right" vs "wrong". He could have brought that up."
Or at least God should of explained the consequences of their actions to them such that if they eat of the forbidden fruit they will not only cause death to themselves but to others as well. Details and gravitas should of mattered there since the well being of around 116 billion souls would be put to jeopardy. So God is not the author of confusion even if God leaves out important matters of life or death types of information?
@@Firestorm12345678910 he’s a busy guy.
Put the tree in Canada! You are a Canadian who wants the tree of knowledge aren't you xDD
@@l.n.3372 I have *no* idea what you’re talking aboot.
@@thedave1771
Aha! I have found the Canadian! *grabs hockey puck, maple syrup and poutine to lure you out*
Forrest is not only smart, he is fine.
You're fine! lol Since you're watching, odds are you're smart as well... Insert a digital wink now
His curious eyebrows can either hug you or roundhouse kick you.
It certainly isn't a "lousy" world. See how there's a species of parasitic wasps that sting and paralyze a caterpillar and lays an egg on it. Then that caterpillar is eaten alive?
_Obviously_ perfect design.
Parasites, cancer, brittle bone disease, a species of boars that has tusks growing so long that it can impale itself...perfectlyy designed and all going according to divine plan! 🤣🤣🤣
It was ever thus
Some god created mosquitoes for our personal enjoyments ! ?
I'm particularily fond of the intelligent design decision that led to the existence of the ophiocordyceps unilateralis. How much of a colossal POS do you have to be to design something like that? Or how about frickin prions. Such awesome design.
And this is a world which is mostly too wet, too dry, too hot or too cold for humans to exist at all.
I would like to formally apologize for causing war and cancer and starvation. If there was anything I could have done to prevent it I would have. Sorry I failed you, god.
If a 'god' made such a statement it would open the doors for a whole lot more indictments.
He and his lawyers would probably be against making such a statement.
God is supposedly omnipotent, so there is nothing he cannot do.
God is supposedly omniscient so he can't not know. That means he knew and chose to let the thing go down.
That makes him a lot like some crusty old tent dwelling elder who has little to no compassion for his people, but decides to control them with fear of rejection, death and eternal torture.
I'm certainly glad a god does not exist. What a horrible world that would be! Even the non-existent god causes thousands of unnecessary deaths yearly. It's a lousy world due to the man-created gods and their various horrible rules and laws.
This has to be one of my favorite episodes of AXP, the humor and vibe, loving it.
Sameee i haven’t watched in a few months and these guys kill it every time. Love this trio
Some Xtians are truly
Sociopathic
I'd wager all are to some extend as long as they're not Christian-just-on-paper.
So are many atheists.
Crosstian?
@@ChainsawChristmas
TransChristian 😉
@@cy-one
Hence why I ultimately left, I couldn't stand to pick&choose and can't stand hypocrites.
Forrest, great opening, great logic and very entertaining. I am known in my local pub, where I always go on a Monday, as the Atheist. I will try this reasoning next Monday. Thanks.
I think that if Jesus died for my sins, if I don't sin, he died for nothing, so I should sin, for Jesus. 🙂
@@jaflenbond7854 blabla from insane mind
But he was only dead for a few days, so only sin in moderation 😉
No. That's not why Jesus suffered for our sins. In the old testament, people who sinned were headed for hell, separation from God for eternity. God is a God of justice and if we do wrong, evil things, there are consequences. But God, despite having made that ruling, didn't want us to go to hell so He made a way so that we have an opportunity to say sorry and come back to God through Jesus Christ. At the moment that Jesus was dying on the cross, He took on the sins of the world, from the past and the future. He paid the price we should have paid, so that we didn't owe anyone at that point. We were freed from the build up of our wrong doings. Not so that we can build it up again but that we can keep short accounts. So, say I realise that I have sworn or thought a wicked thought, I can ask God, in that moment, for forgiveness and be free from punishment on the final day. Hope this helps from a Christian perspective.
When innocent men, women and CHILDREN are hurt, abused, raped or murdered; where is their free will?
There wasn't any in the first place.
IF a god exists, we’re nothing but a reality show he watches.
@@tonyclements1147 Except he set up the reality, and he wrote the script, so he already knows what’s going to happen. And there’s no audience except him. The only people who don’t know what’s going to happen are the cast.
@@HoneyTone-TheSearchContinues yeah... he's like the whole production crew from writer, executive to director. Everything that happens on the show is precisely what he wants to happen :D
@@tonyclements1147 It's more like a pet terrarium. Just ants in the ant farm, according to every religion with any god ever. They call this a "worldview" and think it is profound.
Mike's next phone call was to the crisis hotline. 😂
How could Adam and Eve know right from wrong before biting the fruit?
They didn't
Like a child playing with toy soldiers. He knows which soldier will fall, survive, be a hero, villain or coward.
Christianity is a game of toy soldiers!
🍻
This was even more awesome than usual.
Inspirational-thank you Forrest, JMike, and Secular Rarity.
Two fails on Earth aside, If heaven was so great, where did lucifer's 'pride' come from? Why did a 3rd of the angels join him? Where's the track record of success that tells Mike some future heaven won't implode too? Sounds like a made up story of a cosmic tinkerer buddy, not a perfect 'god'.
Moral dilemmas stem from two evolved behavioral traits that increase our chances that the community survives and procreates. The first trait is being selfish and looking after our own well-being. This one is obvious. The second trait is looking after the well-being of the rest of our community. This not only helps ensure my survival but the survival of the genes I share with those I am related to. The problem that arises is that these inevitably conflict. Often my well-being suffers when I put someone else's before mine and vice versa. This hypothesis best explains the struggle we have between being selfish and being altruistic. In some people, these traits are passed on in an unbalanced way. Some people are totally selfish psychopaths who have no empathy and others that are so empathetic that they are dysfunctional. I don't know of any theist argument that explains this struggle anywhere near as well.
Jesus: "Potato!" 😂
I love this dynamic with the 3 of you hosting the show together. You guys compliment each other and mesh together brilliantly.
God also knows, supposedly, before he made me where I'll end up . Soooo...he made people for hell & heaven Wheres the free will
Nice question
Omniscience and free will don't mix
And if you end up in hell it's still somehow your fault even though it was a fact that you'd go to hell long before you even existed in the first place.
I love you guys! I know it's hard (happens to me all the time) but remember to keep your cool and stay respectful. The three of you together are like the Three Rings of Power; too much power so close together can be overwhelming which might deter believers from calling. Maybe set the stage at the start with the "rules" of the conversation e.g. "must answer each question" to continue but if that doesn't happen, just calmly move to the next caller. But otherwise I love seeing you three together; it's like an All Star Team! Thank you so much for what you do!
Yesterday, I heard a preacher argue that the perfect god can't create a perfect world for that would mean it is on par with god.
And my immediate thought was: How could a perfect being create an imperfect world? A perfect being would necessarily create perfect worlds or it wouldn't be a perfect being.
The caller is trying to dance the same dance: Perfect god has to create an imperfect world because it is perfect to be imperfect.
"And my immediate thought was: How could a perfect being create an imperfect world? A perfect being would necessarily create perfect worlds or it wouldn't be a perfect being."
We'll probably need to define "perfect".
If we use the definition "without error" then a perfect being could purposefully create an imperfect world (perfectly). Just because a being is perfect doesn't mean all of it's product will be perfect, just that it will be produced perfectly - imperfections and all!
If we use the definition of "pure good" then that will in turn be left to interpretation/definition. Can a "pure good" being create a non-pure-good world in order to achieve "greater good"? I would assume so, since a non-pure-good world could be neutral and not evil, and thus should be available to a "pure good" being, no?
@@usa-ev Logical error: Equivocation.
A perfect being is perfect in all ways or it isn't perfect.
The typical concept of "god," especially in the context of the specific caller, is that god is perfectly good. Yes, a perfectly evil god would create a world of corruption and suffering. But that isn't the god that is under consideration.
Of course, a "perfect" being has no need of anything and thus wouldn't create anything. If it had needs or wants or desires, it wouldn't be perfect.
@@dhwyll "Logical error: Equivocation. " By whom? Hopefully you don't mean me and my efforts to define and disambiguate the discussion as that would be the opposite of equivocation.
"A perfect being is perfect in all ways or it isn't perfect. " I disagree, I'd say perfect things can have many forms similar to infinities. So for example you can have an infinite series of odd numbers, but it will never include an even number even though it is infinite. A puppy could be perfect without needing to be a god.
[BTW, such a perfect puppy could be created by a perfect god or an imperfect god.]
"The typical concept of "god," especially in the context of the specific caller, is that god is perfectly good. " OK, that's why I included this definition in my first comment. I think such a god could still create non-perfectly good things without issue because, at a minimum, the set of non-perfectly good things includes neutral things.
"Of course, a "perfect" being has no need of anything and thus wouldn't create anything. If it had needs or wants or desires, it wouldn't be perfect."
A perfect puppy would want to lick your face and love you. Perhaps a perfect god would too.
@@usa-ev Yes, by you.
You're trying to redefine what "perfect" means in this context so that you can weasel out of the problem.
Indeed, real objects can be "perfect" in one sense and imperfect in another. The perfect screwdriver is a very imperfect hammer.
We're talking about "god," however, in the context of someone claiming that this "god" object is incapable of making mistakes. Thus, your attempt to redefine "perfect" in the context of "perfect for certain applications but not others" is equivocation.
In the context of this discussion, "perfect" means for *all* applications.
Since we, imperfect as we are, can see how things could easily be better, the "god" object in question clearly cannot survive its definition of "perfection."
Such a "perfect" being would have no need to create anything because a "perfect" being has no desires, being perfect. And even if we could convince of a scenario in which it did create something, it would do so perfectly for to allow imperfection would mean it isn't perfect.
"But the imperfections are intended!" I hear you cry.
Then they aren't imperfections. If you meant it and you're perfect, then those were conscious decisions, not accidents. If you didn't mean it, then they're accidents and you're not perfect.
Which means the evil and suffering is baked in by design.
Which means the "perfect" being who is "perfectly good" specifically and purposefully created evil.
Which means it isn't perfectly good because we, imperfect as we are, can recognize that the system could be designed without the imperfections.
If you want to reduce "god" to an incredibly powerful but bumbling engineer (just read Genesis for evidence of the incompetence of the "god" character), then go right ahead.
And simply have the courage to say that said "god" is not perfect.
Not in any way.
@@dhwyll Ah, well, you've misunderstood my intentions, and I've misunderstood yours, both of which are my fault. You are correct that I completely ignored the God context in which you were asking your question. My bad, and it wasn't even intentional, it's so plain that the perfect God "for all applications" is self-contradictory and impossible by definition, that I didn't even give it a passing thought. I was instead trying to explore some logical branches that could at least be logically consistent. So, sorry about that, I see now that you're not interested in that so please disregard.
Thank you Elliott. I did not know that Rosanna was by Toto. So at least I learned something from this call. 😂😂😂
God did non create any world, obviously. 🙂
How did you prove that the universe doesn't have a Creator?
Isn't that actually unfalsifiable?
@@logicalmuslim1590 How can these weakling gods exist if they can't even muster the power to speak on their own behalf? And why do we always only hear from them through the dirty mouths of mewling quims pointing at the sky and trying to sound wise about things like which hand to wipe their asses with?
@@OceanusHelios hateful rhetoric.
Did you think that Muhammad peace be upon him had access to toilet paper?
The Sunnah is the example of the prophet, how he did things.
Clean your butt with water with your left hand.
Eat only with your right hand.
Subhanallah.
Why is it that Atheists know deities way better than theists? Theists seem not to know a thing about the deities they believe in, as Mike demonstrated. Mike was very ignorant about his beliefs...good on the Atheists for keeping Mike accountable for his beliefs in the deity he believes in..
It’s because deities are not what people are trying to find in religion. They are looking for cheap camaraderie, unearned political capital, a cheat code for social cohesion, an identity, and so on. The magical nonsense is just the cost they bear to obtain the rest.
They feel more than they think.
Atheists Keep asking Questions perhaps? Try asking theists what the world was like Before Deities became Folklore's and watch the tapdancing they do to Deflect
Thanks to believers’ intelligence. We keep getting affirmation that Abrahamic god does not exist.
When I was being taught about Christianity what first struck me is we were told "Jesus saved us", but it is not exactly true. Jesus ONLY saves us if we believe he is son of God, etc, etc, etc.
That is not "saving!"
A fireman who rescues people from burning buildings doesn't require them to believe in him first.
If Jesus did save us from "our sins" he should have had the decency to do so unconditionally, without Ts and Cs!
But of course, it is just a story, which is why it makes zero sense.
God intended for us to have free will. So why doesn't he intervene when one person takes away and person's free will via slavery, rape, or other forms of being forced to partake in unlawful activities?
@@jaflenbond7854 If he exists, then why did your God make you such a dumb troll...
Reporrted for SPAM
@@t800fantasm2 I'm honestly surprised the channel lasted so long. By this point you'd think it would've been deleted due to spamming the same 5 comments everywhere. Instead, it's healthily heading to 3 years of existence.
@@jaflenbond7854 get psychiatric help.
@@jaflenbond7854 blabla from insane mind
@@jaflenbond7854 your lunatic babling is still diapearing, ldiot 😀
5:14 and for the ppl who say it's a test....again, God already knows the outcome. Ur gods out there having 🍿 laughing his ass off watching 😂😂😂😂
The way you have to constantly beat him back on topic reminds me of how octopi will punch their hunting buddies to keep them humble and make them share.
This might be one of the best calls yet. Y'all crushed it with every example and hypothetical. Good job
If "god" KNEW we were all gonna pay for Adam & Eve's sin and STILL created them, then he's an idiot
Yep. That's basically like deliberately genetically engineering all of your your children such that they have a 99% change of having *Fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva,* (an incurable, excruciating, debilitating and ultimately fatal disease where your muscles turn into bone, to the point you cannot breathe anymore).
Except, in the divine version, there is no end.
@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2
It is like writing a program to output "You, the person reading this, are the worst!" and getting mad at the program you wrote to output that.
@@Diviance and then you smash the computer that it ran on, and ever other computer you ever see. Sounds totally sane!
@@BlarglemanTheSkeptic2
And now I am picturing a guy savagely beating his PC with a bat after his code does exactly what he told it to do before slowly panning his gaze around the room to the rest of his electronics and saying "...and let that be a lesson to the rest of you!"
@@Diviance 🤣🤣🤣
Forrest describing Adam and Eve as toddlers, makes me think of "blanket training." If you're not familiar, blanket training is a popular child rearing strategy in extreme evangelical communities, where they put a baby on a blanket and wait for it to crawl off. Then they hit the baby. They repeat it until the baby stays on the blanket. I wish I were joking.
I think one of the more subtly damaging things that's not addressed frequently enough in discussing religion is how these authoritarian beliefs are reflected in a believer's values. If you accept that it's ok to hit a baby for something it doesn't know is wrong (skip right past hitting a baby for any reason), I guess maybe Adam and Eve being punished for eating bad fruit doesn't sound so ludicrous. And if you accept and worship a god who does something like that, you're going to raise your kids with the belief that obedience is the same thing as morality.
I love Forrest so much!! I want to see more of the red golden retriever ❤️❤️
As a former Christian who has read the entire Bible and studied it in every way that I could find to do so, I still never understood why it’s important to the god of the Bible that everybody struggle through a word of horrific depravity because of their free will (even though the Bible never mentions free will a single time and clearly talks about God creating people just to be “vessels of wrath” and making them incapable of not sinning or even repenting so that god can get glory from it), but apparently it’s all okay because in heaven people can’t sin, so we won’t have free will anyway.
What I find weird about no sin in heaven is that
Lucifer was able to raise a rebellion against god, which is a sin according to Christians.
@@jaflenbond7854 blabla from insane mind
I am so happy my mother stuck with a historical family name (no, not that one) passed down in our Welsh heritage. My middle name is Darwin. Although I had teasing as a kid in school (popular cartoon character, sang "Oh my darlin, oh my darlin .Clementine" I would hear "oh my darwin oh my darwin", and to a 6 year old, the taunting led to a slight emotional scar. Later, when I was 9, My dad died in an accident, the neighbor shot my pet dog ( it was ALMOST on his property). and my favorite aunt died a few days later. There was tons of god talk the Christmas before, I discovered that Santa was made up. Also, I watched (on PBS) the Irish comedian DAVE ALLEN talk about religion. I became an atheist overnight and could no longer believe in anything imaginary. By age 14, I was shunned by my father's side of the family, my grandfather found out I had a pet python, and snuck in when we were out (he lived across the road) and killed it. He lectured me on handling Satan's instrument, and that Christmas, mom, feeling bad about the incident, contacted the friend breeding snakes, and got me (instead of a baby) a 10 footer that I proudly displayed on the front porch that spring to the disgust of my grand parents. I was the only grand child taken out of their wills.
Well, there's no hate like Christian love!
Fuck their money anyways
It could have been worse. You could have turned into one of them and could have given your brain away and had it replaced by this worldview where we were the pets of their gods, and could have lived your life sniveling and groveling and bootlicking against your own interests.
The GREAT thing about being non-religious, is that you get to take FULL responsibility! For Everything! No wiggle room to put the blame elsewhere! The buck starts.. And stops with you! No excuses!
Now... If you don't like that, then that means that mentally and emotionally, you're still just a child!
Can someone get God to call the show? Because his worshipers are making him look dumb.
I really appreciate mike bringing up the fact that we can live in a world where free will exists but evil doesn't happen, because God can always intervene between the choice and the outcome. It reminds me of Watchmen, when the Comedian guns down the pregnant Vietnamese woman, and he tells Dr. Manhattan that he also had the choice to turn the bottle into snowflakes, but didn't do so. God has all the power to allow people to make evil decisions and still not actualize evil in the world because the choice and the outcome are not the same thing.
Forrest, thank you for translating for JMike 😅 I was about to lose it if he said asymmetry again. I love you JMike but I'm not smart enough to follow
These guys are always awesome!
A God that brought everything into existence, basically dragging all of us into his personal universal shit show, has nobody but himself to blame for creating everything just the way it is.
Maybe god is like Eren from Attack on Titan: he is super powerful and knows everything, but he has no ability to change his own shitty, evil decisions, nor understand them.
Forrest's monologue about Adam and Eve eating the apple, and not knowing it was wrong, and god knowing they were gonna do it and put it there anyway and THEN proceeded to punish them was awesome
And then Jmike's comment about involuntarily taking on the punishment of adam and eve is amazing too
And then Secular's comment about being apparently too busy to help people who pray over their dying child, but will apparently help a whole city if they choose to repent
Also he made the serpent and allowed it into the garden.
The whole story is a setup.
And Cain and Able, is just as mind boggling:
Why did god only took Ables sacrifice? Doesn't a farmer work freaking hard for their produce? With stoneage tools?
Being a sheep herder, sound kind of relaxing in comparison.
And still he favored Able, and didn't even explain himself!
Imagine your two children bring you presents they made themself, who, who in the world would ever go and do that to their children?
And then there was the tower of Bable.
God is either an a$$hole or incompetent. Or both.
@@vertigo4236 i dont know the story of cain and able so id have to google, but i do know babel. "Hey guys, lets build a tower to get close to god" and then god said "not happening you pricks. Good luck trying to do stuff together when you cant speak the same language".
Has there ever been ANY god EVER, that WASNT a dick to mortals?
@@earendilthemariner5546
That is not actually what is happening in that story.
“Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”
They didn't want to reach god, they wanted to work together, and what did god do?
"But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
He knew, that if humans work togther, they didn't need him. So he scattered and confused them.
The story is always told differently to believers, because the original in the Bible makes god sound aweful.
go read the complete Genesis 11:1-9
1. The supposedly omniscient God did not know humans were incapable of building a tower “whose top may reach unto heaven.”
2. The supposedly omniscient God did not KNOW that there were already multiple languages.
Gen 10: 5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
God must have forgotten about this verse.
No linguist believes that different languages originated with the dispersion of Noah’s sons or the dispersion of the peoples of Babel. Both stories are fables.
“Murder Mike”, “Robber Mike” 🤣🤣🤣
Noticed that. Lol'd.
Whenever good things happen, he's to be praised. When bad things happen, it's someone else's fault. He's all-knowing and all-powerful because he cannot be seen as weak, yet he also bears none of the responsibility of the state of the world. He craves worship and admiration above all else, potentially absolving horrific sins so long as you dedicate yourself to his worship. God is the original narcissist archetype.
I find it crazy how when someone wins the lottery whose done nothing holy in their life are worthy of gods blessing yet a buddy of mine who loves the bible, goes to church almost everyday and even donates to charity when he can. Lost his 2 year old baby girl literally over night after she screamed in pain for hours and this man prayed and cried and god said fuck you shes mine now. You know what he said the reason was "god had a better plan for her". Fuck god for letting people suffer and allowing others to be brainwashed
3:50 entire segment is insightful. I never thought about this point, how was Adam and Eve supposed to know what good and evil are without having first partaken from the tree? how would they know disobeying god was wrong if they don’t know what wrong was yet? If they don’t know sin until after the fruit was eaten?
The entire bible is one long string of assertions and no acknowledgments that there were other options or better explanations for anything. Critical thinking requires a person to do more than just look at what is there, but to also look at what is missing and approach it without the intent to just believe it or for the sake of watching a movie playing in our heads.
It's so much easier, it solves all the confusion, if you just remove all your conceptions about "god", do your best to be respectful of others, promote general happiness, and create a society that figures out an acceptable policy about dealing individuals who are so abusive and violent that no one knows how to heal their minds. But the difficulty with this is that whenever something REALLY doesn't go well, it seems like there is always somebody wanting revenge. Somebody, some people insisting on punishment rather than healing the miscreat or putting them in a place where they can do no harm. -- If only the "justice system" were really just. That, instead of using it to enslave people we feel are just inferior, "just because they are!", it is said. That really means I don't want them having equal respect, I want to hold on to MY priviledge. And I can't think of any way of looking at things exept that "if you have a piece of the pie, I won't get enough." What's wrong with this thinking? Well for starters, that supposed inferior miscreant, might actually be capable of making sure there are plenty of pies for everybody. Or their child might, if given a chance. And meanwhile, you keep suppressing that niggling thought that what you are doing isn't fair treatment. So you excuse yourself by turn it into fear of the person not just like you. And justify yourself. And teach your children that these other people are dangerous just for existing and breathing. And so, your children trust you and don't think for themselves. Or you punish them for disrespecting your teachings. And THAT, dear reader, is exactly what a racist does. What class separation does. It appears to make like easier for the elite or the "in-crowd". But it always involves excessive control of some of the people. Think! How many times this kind of thinking resulted in oppression, bloodshed, disasters? And yet, it still seems to be a preferred tool of the would-be and actual tyrants of the world. --- And it seems they always know how to disinform a mass of unthinking people to support them. And this, dear reader is what the USA stands on the brink of. Not all kings are actual tyrants, but all kings are in a separate class from the people. And the transition from king to tyrant has been perfomred more times in the history of human life than anyone knows. And in the USA, we have a situation where a proven tyrant would be king --and tyrant again. And the masses remain fooled. And who are the abused and down trodden? He says it the immigrants. Yes, they are abused and downtrodded, that is why they are immigrants. They come here to escape that, and to do well. The question is ours: Will we let them? Or will be abuse them? We can see them as opportunities, helpers, or we can abuse them and live with less self respect. Self justification may seem like a warm blanket, but it's really a slowly building bonfire of harsh retaliation. It's better all around to enjoy a life of kindness for newcomers. There ARE plenty of jobs.
According to most theists, yes.
Its a fallen/broken world full of sin.
Thankfully God included Atheism 🙏
And a good Wednesday Morning 🌞 AXP Fans and Theists ❤❤❤
Peace Love Empathy From Australia 💪🤠☝️
Theist dishonesty when it comes to answering questions is ridiculous, their inability to answer yes or no questions is so frustrating cause they know their personal god doesn’t exist
wow these three are clad in steel....invincible
Just another nail in the problem of suffering
And Jesus said "Potato!"
God harming or allowing harm to come to the descendants of Adam because of the sin of Adam is unacceptable.
"It's like dude, you made me, this is your f***up. Alright? Let's not try to turn this around on me. You know? Jesus Christ."
- Bill Burr
If you are a spider, your only way to survive is to subject other animals to a brutal gruesome horrifying death. If the world was perfect before the fall of man, were spiders created after?
No, before they just used to be vegetarian. Why some animal “kinds” became carnivores while others didn’t is not explained.
I mean spiders are vital to the eco system in which they live and while it may be gruesome they do serve a great purpose. We would genuinely be screwed as a planet without spiders. No one ever said nature was pretty, as evidenced by all the horrible things that even humans do to each other
@@jackwhitbread4583 But the point is: God, being God and having total control over the laws of nature, could have created the world in a way were that wasn't necessary.
@@twowardrobeswardrobes1536 "before they just used to be vegetarian"
What a stupid f**king concept...
Were anteaters vegetarians once too?
@@t800fantasm2 Probably. Crocodiles just used to eat grass.
This video reminded me of something that bothered me for a long time when I was a Christian: how can a perfect omni -present -potent -scient God, as described in the Bible, nitpick over so many irrelevant, arbitrary, and sometimes absurd laws, while failing to endorse (or worse, endorsing the opposite of) laws that should exist in the Bible because they actually would benefit humanity and/or our planetary home?
It was one of the many questions/concerns that eventually led me to leave religion altogether. I can't honestly say I'm an atheist now, but I'm close: agnostic with a vague sense of pantheism.
I think he didn’t know what asymmetry means
This is wonderful!
Please more of this
Thank you to all!❤
Jeebus Christ all this caller did is provide evidence that the religious are pathological liars.
Not enough credit being given here for the production member that changed "JMIKE" to "ROBBER MIKE" as he was telling the bank robbing story. 🤣
It’s certainly not my fault. It was like this when I got here.
I love how each and every Christian apologist has a pathological aversion to yes or no questions. They absolutely can not allow themselves to answer them. When the question is being formulated you can smell their fear, especially if it's slightly different to what they've prepared themselves for, so they have to play for time to think of the potential pitfalls in how they can respond.
"Lousy" wouldn't really be the right word. More like irrational. For one thing, humans did not create a reality where most life forms `must` consume other living organisms, just to survive. We didn't create the struggle, and suffering is absolutely not limited to humans. It makes sense in a natural world where whatever can be, will be, however the plan of an omni everything god? That's not a compelling concept to say the least.
Easy to look smart when you have 3 people constantly talking over 1 person, and yet, somehow you made yourselves look not smart.
Excuses Excuses caller
wow - this was fun to watch
Mike isn’t interested in thinking, critical or otherwise
MindShift did a great video on this topic while debunking an IamBeggar video. Of course,this was good as well!
Mike exhibits the typical Fear based clinging to a daddy god that promises egoic immortality/heaven which leads what would otherwise be sensible people to willingly adopt ridiculous mythologies that depend on the gullibility of faith to sustain them :all coming out of a mostly subconsciouly buried Fear of facing a natural death...
How are men to blame when God specifically put the tree within range of men, and without giving men the understanding of right and wrong, with God fully knowing what men would do, tempted them with the tree's fruit for an undisclosed amount of time, which according to the Bible could be 1 day or a trillion years? And then it's our fault for not knowing better? No, if God went to deity school, he'd get an F.
😂 cursing his.creation and knowing about in foresight , a in foreknowledge, he played quite a role, some say the villain
Wow! So that's how delightfully chill the end of a clip can be, _absend_ a station call of an "executive producer's" cringy jokes, made especially painful by said station-caller's magnificent debating skills. Or maybe its just me who gets cringe-shocked out of the debate-clip vibe by it, at that channel?
This caller actually thinks Adam and Eve were real?
I love this pre-covid studio setup. Easier/Nicer for everyone when the hosts/guests are in the same room❤
Actually I did it. I left the world in the oven and forgot about it while I was petting the cat and now it's ruined. Sorry, guys.
Bring up the last saved planet file, that should fix it!
@@tonyclements1147 If I were god, I'd be save-scumming like a M'FER.