"Catherine was corrupted by these girls". In part, I agree, but let's not shirk from putting the majority of the blame where it belongs, on the grown men taking advantage of a child.
You have to remember in their minds it was Eve’s fault Adam ate the apple. Men always blame women because they can’t keep it zipped or in this case laced.
To 16th century ethics and morals, this was quite common for older men to be married to girls young enough to be their daughters, back then. A woman's main priority back then was having babies and lots of them. Girls/woman did what they were told, when they were told, and how they were told. They were completely dominated by men and were at times beaten into submission by men as well, all this was considered natural and perfectly legal. There were a few exceptions, Anne Boleyn (who in my opinion planted the seed for woman's equality) and her daughter Elizabeth, to name but 2, who broke the mould when it came to the male dominated world. But until perhaps the Victorian age woman were very much seen as the weaker sex and needed to be governed by a man. 21st century thinking, In today's society Henry 8th and others like him, would face some very stern questions from the police and social services and possibly end up being convicted and labelled as a sexual preditor.
I just can’t get enough of the woman’s lives and their stories. Their lives are more interesting than the tv shows on today. I have such a love of history now, decades after school was over 🤷♀️
Poor Katherine Howard, naive and foolish teenager. She couldn't comprehend the risk of catching Henry's eye. His affection changed course with the wind. It pains me to think of her end. Her guardians surely neglected her and her father was also responsible for her downfall. Agnes should have cared for her like a mother but sadly destiny had other plans.
He uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, pushed Catherine in the path of the king in the service of his own ambition. Whatever Agnes knew at that time she should have told her stepson then and there to prevent tragedy.
Catherine's father didn't have an awful lot to do with any of his children. He was continuely in debt so spent most of his time avoiding debt collectors. The Howards were ambitious so poor Catherine was simply seen a fresh meat in a court filled with hungry wolves and sadly she was thrown into this Royal pit and got devoured by a lion. Poor foolish Girl, but even so when she was forced into marriage with the King she did her best to make the best out of a bad situation. And she did have a good influence on the king as well, since the death of Jane he had really let himself go. With Catherine, he ate less and exercized more and his health did show so improvement, up until his relapse when his leg ulcer caused him a major issue. She died with what can be called as queenly grace, she was both humble and penitent, she asked for the people who witnessed her death to take regard of her just punishment and take care to amend their ungodly lives and to obey the King in all things. Then she asked them to pray for her and ask God to send good health and long life to the King. And she put her head on the block calmly as she had practised in her cell the night before. She must have been terrified especially since she had bee made to kneel and lay her head in Jane Boleyn's blood as she had been executed just moments before.
@@januarysson5633 My bad sorry. I guess the same coul be said of Jane then, very un-nerving for her to have to kneel in Catherine's blood. Poor Jane was unhinged as it was, but at least she regained her composure enough to meet death as serenely as she could.
I honestly think that Cat Howard was betrayed by so many in her life that wanted power through her. I don't think she had any idea what it meant to really catch the eye of the King. And once she did, that was it. She couldn't say anything about not being a virgin because she'd be blamed. The blame wouldn't go to where it really should have gone to the men who abused a child and a relative that didn't protect her.
Other, ore credible sources say that this crap isn't true. She wasn't brought up to be hyper sexual and she was protected because of her value as being part of a noble family
@@kfemme68 actual history books. Not UA-cam of movies. You think those sources are credible? Watch little women,where they're wearing Ugg boots. You can do it. A lot of colleges will let you read them as well
Sometimes, I still wonder if Arthur Tudor and Catherine of Aragon consumated their marriage. They were if appropriate age and married for enough time. Even if Catherine was with Arthur physically, and lied to Henry, it certainly wouldn't make me think any less of her.
There were 2 dispansations made for when Catherine was betrothed to Henry after Arthur's death one stated the marriage could go ahead because Catherine was still a virgin and the other said the marriage could go ahead even if Catherine wasn't a virgin. We will never ever know the truth about this, but I believe that Arthur did try to consummate the marriage but nerves got the better of both of them and Catherine suffered an attack of Vaginismus. You can kind of understand that since she and Arthur really didn't get to know each other before they were married and expected to do the old mattress mambo and produce a baby. She found having sex with Henry when they married easier because she had got to know him really well in the 7 years she waited to marry him.
I love the way they say the they “confessed” that they did things. As if being stretched an the rack, starved, locked up in the tower with rats and heaven knows what else, wouldn’t make you confess!!
Quite frankly, I am convinced that bloated man known as Henry VIII, was incapable of love. I'm surprised that this monster even called Catherine Howard his "Rose without a thorn." Give me a break! Monster! He certainly knew a lot about lust however!
Henry VIII was a textbook narcissist. His "rose without a thorn" compliment was part of the grooming process called "love bombing". The devalue and discard stages happened quickly for poor Catherine. ~Anastacia in Cleveland
He was very capable of love, he was completely and utterly in love with himself. He played the charmer (and in certain cases the poor bleeding martyr, the sad sack of crap) all the while he was on the hunt for a victim, but once snared the reality of what to do with it hit home and he ended up destroying them. One of the things that make me laugh about this hypocritical wanker, is what he said about Anne of Cleves.. He called her fat, ugly and had all manner of evil smells about her......... Huh.......... He wasn't exactly a prize catch was he? and he really did stink too. It's said you could smell him coming from rooms away before his fat head came around the corner.
I love your channel!! I've always had a fascination with royal history your videos are so educational thank you for all the work you do to make the videos ❤️
Thank for an other awesome video 😁 I always meant to look in to The Duchy of Norfolk and forget. Double thank you for this particular video for reminding me ❤️❤️
I suppose Agnes was in a way caught between a rock and a hard place. She's definitely neglectful and should have protected Catherine from being abused by these older men however once Henry wanted Catherine as a wife she really couldn't have confessed to Catherine's previous liaisons. It was either confess that Catherine was not a virgin and ruin her reputation or keep quiet and deceive the king. When Henry wanted something, he got it. It seems like I miss keeping quiet about Catherine's virginity with her finely protecting Catherine.
I absolutley adore your videos. Have you considered doing a video on Catherine Howard's paintings? None are confirmed to definitely be her and all are theorised to be other ladies. One is currently being considered to be Anne of Cleves.
At 4:27 is says: "she is regarded as the Dowager Duchess and she was in favor up until her husband passed away..." Unfortunately one can't be a dowager anything unless her husband has died.
Actually, He never called Catherine Howard "His Rose Without a Thorn" That was added by scholars years later...He did, however, refer to her as "His Jewel Of The World"
I am a direct Descendant of Catherine Howard. Keep in mind they had 2 daughters named Catherine. The elder one married Rhys Gruffyydd who was a very wealthy Welch land owner and beheaded by King Henry Vlll. The elder Catherine Countess of Bridgewater was my direct line.
Interesting, but a couple of errors. Toward the end you said her husband was Thomas Cromwell 🙃 when I think you meant to say Howard. I like the concept of the video though and hope to see them continue to become more accurate over time 😊
Can you imagine having several teenage girls as wards? Impossible to control them in your sleep. They are sneaky and liars. Should have cautioned Henry as to her chastity saying she could not vouch for it instead of thinking to up herself in ranking at court for rewards. Greed.
her son probably put pressure on her too. He had profited greatly from Anne Boleyn and I am sure he expected to do the same with Katherine. He knew she was not a virgin because he told her to make sure she didn't get caught when he learned of how she occupied her time in the household.
Agnes was responsible for the downfall of more girls the Catherine Howard. If Henry wasn’t so quick to lust and anger, it would have been a different England, though.
Just an observation re pronunciation which will make these posts more credible. ‘St. Peter ad Vincula’ should be pronounced ad VINC- ula, (that is to say, as emphasised by the capitals) and not Vin-CU-laaar. Also, ‘Executor’ isn’t pronounced ‘Executer’ . It should be ex-ECutor.( you are talking about someone who carries out the instructions in a Will…not someone who puts people to death! Very different). We may allow our American cousins some leeway with our language, but Brits / aspiring historians have no excuse.
The English are such humble Christians. When the pope denied Henry the divorce of Catherine of Aragon, he established his own church, the Church of England, they are humble, unpretentious people.
The English were the only people brave enough to stand up to the tyrant Pope. Who gave him the power to make and break Kings. Popes dissolved lots of Royal marriages if their paws were greaser well enough
she and her family said she was a virgin. Unless she was a widow, it would be expected that a woman would be a virgin before marriage. Especially if she is being married to the king. Then whens he was married, she was accused of conspiring to have an affair with Thomas Culpepper, which was also treason.
It wasn't Henry the viii wandering eye that caused him to have 6 wives, he had affairs before leaving Katherine of Aragon, what he wanted was an heir, a boy child to come after him.
that and the reformation in Europe. Without the reformation he wouldn't have made himself head of the church and got rid of his wives whenever he felt like it
fascinating video, maybe you can do a video of her daughter.. lady catherine howard...(died 1554*) her first marriage to : Lord rhys ap gruffydd....1508-1531, a distant cousin to King Henry VIII via (Rhys ap Tewdwr (c. 1040 - 1093) king of Deheubarth ( Dinefwr dynasty*) later she became post 1531.... the countess of bridgewater and 2nd baroness daubney... wife to 1st Earl of Bridgewater and 2nd Baron Daubeney...
@@ivyrose779 in those days no. Because adults and kids weren't a thing. Katherine takes at least some of the blame because, by rank, she was in charge in her relationships. They needed her invitation or at the very least, consent to do anything or she could get them fired or worse. HEr mother had taught her right from wrong. But her grandmother and uncle failed to teach her consequences.
"Catherine was corrupted by these girls". In part, I agree, but let's not shirk from putting the majority of the blame where it belongs, on the grown men taking advantage of a child.
You have to remember in their minds it was Eve’s fault Adam ate the apple. Men always blame women because they can’t keep it zipped or in this case laced.
There will be NO MORE OF THAT!
The poor helpless men of nobility were bewitched by her.
Off with your head Ms. Kitty!
Hoooray screamed the crowd!!!
@@georgemckenna462 LoL 😉
That poor little girl.
To 16th century ethics and morals, this was quite common for older men to be married to girls young enough to be their daughters, back then. A woman's main priority back then was having babies and lots of them. Girls/woman did what they were told, when they were told, and how they were told. They were completely dominated by men and were at times beaten into submission by men as well, all this was considered natural and perfectly legal.
There were a few exceptions, Anne Boleyn (who in my opinion planted the seed for woman's equality) and her daughter Elizabeth, to name but 2, who broke the mould when it came to the male dominated world. But until perhaps the Victorian age woman were very much seen as the weaker sex and needed to be governed by a man.
21st century thinking, In today's society Henry 8th and others like him, would face some very stern questions from the police and social services and possibly end up being convicted and labelled as a sexual preditor.
I just can’t get enough of the woman’s lives and their stories. Their lives are more interesting than the tv shows on today. I have such a love of history now, decades after school was over 🤷♀️
Good for you! Learning is ageless and knowledge is wealth for the spirit. I wish you a lifetime of curiosity.
Poor Katherine Howard, naive and foolish teenager. She couldn't comprehend the risk of catching Henry's eye. His affection changed course with the wind. It pains me to think of her end. Her guardians surely neglected her and her father was also responsible for her downfall. Agnes should have cared for her like a mother but sadly destiny had other plans.
I agree. She should have paid attention to his history with her cousin, Anne Boleyn...
He uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, pushed Catherine in the path of the king in the service of his own ambition. Whatever Agnes knew at that time she should have told her stepson then and there to prevent tragedy.
Catherine's father didn't have an awful lot to do with any of his children. He was continuely in debt so spent most of his time avoiding debt collectors.
The Howards were ambitious so poor Catherine was simply seen a fresh meat in a court filled with hungry wolves and sadly she was thrown into this Royal pit and got devoured by a lion. Poor foolish Girl, but even so when she was forced into marriage with the King she did her best to make the best out of a bad situation. And she did have a good influence on the king as well, since the death of Jane he had really let himself go. With Catherine, he ate less and exercized more and his health did show so improvement, up until his relapse when his leg ulcer caused him a major issue.
She died with what can be called as queenly grace, she was both humble and penitent, she asked for the people who witnessed her death to take regard of her just punishment and take care to amend their ungodly lives and to obey the King in all things. Then she asked them to pray for her and ask God to send good health and long life to the King. And she put her head on the block calmly as she had practised in her cell the night before. She must have been terrified especially since she had bee made to kneel and lay her head in Jane Boleyn's blood as she had been executed just moments before.
@@mrsdinosaur1009 Actually Catherine was executed before Jane.
@@januarysson5633 My bad sorry. I guess the same coul be said of Jane then, very un-nerving for her to have to kneel in Catherine's blood. Poor Jane was unhinged as it was, but at least she regained her composure enough to meet death as serenely as she could.
I honestly think that Cat Howard was betrayed by so many in her life that wanted power through her. I don't think she had any idea what it meant to really catch the eye of the King. And once she did, that was it. She couldn't say anything about not being a virgin because she'd be blamed. The blame wouldn't go to where it really should have gone to the men who abused a child and a relative that didn't protect her.
Other, ore credible sources say that this crap isn't true. She wasn't brought up to be hyper sexual and she was protected because of her value as being part of a noble family
@@debbylou5729 what more credible sources? Because I've seen this information from history channels here on UA-cam that I trust. Please elaborate?
@@kfemme68 actual history books. Not UA-cam of movies. You think those sources are credible? Watch little women,where they're wearing Ugg boots. You can do it. A lot of colleges will let you read them as well
Sometimes, I still wonder if Arthur Tudor and Catherine of Aragon consumated their marriage. They were if appropriate age and married for enough time. Even if Catherine was with Arthur physically, and lied to Henry, it certainly wouldn't make me think any less of her.
There were 2 dispansations made for when Catherine was betrothed to Henry after Arthur's death one stated the marriage could go ahead because Catherine was still a virgin and the other said the marriage could go ahead even if Catherine wasn't a virgin. We will never ever know the truth about this, but I believe that Arthur did try to consummate the marriage but nerves got the better of both of them and Catherine suffered an attack of Vaginismus. You can kind of understand that since she and Arthur really didn't get to know each other before they were married and expected to do the old mattress mambo and produce a baby. She found having sex with Henry when they married easier because she had got to know him really well in the 7 years she waited to marry him.
I believe it is very very possible
I love the way they say the they “confessed” that they did things. As if being stretched an the rack, starved, locked up in the tower with rats and heaven knows what else, wouldn’t make you confess!!
More about Catherine Howard than Agnes. What a shame. I always wanted to know why so many girls were under her care.
Quite frankly, I am convinced that bloated man known as Henry VIII, was incapable of love. I'm surprised that this monster even called Catherine Howard his "Rose without a thorn." Give me a break! Monster! He certainly knew a lot about lust however!
Henry VIII was a textbook narcissist. His "rose without a thorn" compliment was part of the grooming process called "love bombing". The devalue and discard stages happened quickly for poor Catherine. ~Anastacia in Cleveland
He was very capable of love, he was completely and utterly in love with himself. He played the charmer (and in certain cases the poor bleeding martyr, the sad sack of crap) all the while he was on the hunt for a victim, but once snared the reality of what to do with it hit home and he ended up destroying them.
One of the things that make me laugh about this hypocritical wanker, is what he said about Anne of Cleves.. He called her fat, ugly and had all manner of evil smells about her......... Huh..........
He wasn't exactly a prize catch was he? and he really did stink too. It's said you could smell him coming from rooms away before his fat head came around the corner.
Katheryn Howard was stupid to have introduced her ex lover into the court. talk about tying from stupidity
I love your channel!! I've always had a fascination with royal history your videos are so educational thank you for all the work you do to make the videos ❤️
Thank for an other awesome video 😁 I always meant to look in to The Duchy of Norfolk and forget. Double thank you for this particular video for reminding me ❤️❤️
Your videos are amazing. Ive learned so many things I didn't know I didn't know.
Henry VIII wasn’t any shining example of purity himself.
This explains the Howards rise during this time and the Surrey connection. Enjoyable! Thank you
I suppose Agnes was in a way caught between a rock and a hard place. She's definitely neglectful and should have protected Catherine from being abused by these older men however once Henry wanted Catherine as a wife she really couldn't have confessed to Catherine's previous liaisons. It was either confess that Catherine was not a virgin and ruin her reputation or keep quiet and deceive the king. When Henry wanted something, he got it. It seems like I miss keeping quiet about Catherine's virginity with her finely protecting Catherine.
Yeah!!! Another fabulous video
I absolutley adore your videos. Have you considered doing a video on Catherine Howard's paintings? None are confirmed to definitely be her and all are theorised to be other ladies. One is currently being considered to be Anne of Cleves.
Thank you for this one!! I have a long history with the descendants of this family and am very interested in them..
I've got Tilney ancestors too.
Thank you for a very interesting documentary!!
Another great video, thank you!
At 4:27 is says: "she is regarded as the Dowager Duchess and she was in favor up until her husband passed away..." Unfortunately one can't be a dowager anything unless her husband has died.
"Her and her second husband, Thomas Cromwell, the second Duke of Norfolk..." eh ?
Ah, just a misspeak...should have been Thomas HOWARD" NOT "Cromwell"
Agnes Howard was never married to Thomas Cromwell. She was married to Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk.
It’s a wonder that someone so negligent was trustees with peoples’ daughters
Henry was a monster and Catherine was playing with fire
Actually, He never called Catherine Howard "His Rose Without a Thorn" That was added by scholars years later...He did, however, refer to her as "His Jewel Of The World"
How ironic. I was looking at my family tree today and Agnes here (according to my family tree) is like my 16 or 17th Great-grandmother.
Would like to connect with u as she is my 15 or 16th great-grandmother.
Great video ☺️
Brilliant thank you,
I was not aware that Agnes Howard was married to Thomas Cromwell. Or perhaps I misheard your narration?
One of the Thomas Howards.
No, I heard the same.
I listened again. I did not hear Cromwell.
@@Nightbird1914 My apologies, I must have misheard. Although the close captions read "Cromwell", perhaps they misheard as well.
I am a direct Descendant of Catherine Howard. Keep in mind they had 2 daughters named Catherine. The elder one married Rhys Gruffyydd who was a very wealthy Welch land owner and beheaded by King Henry Vlll. The elder Catherine Countess of Bridgewater was my direct line.
That's cool. How you direct descendants of Catherine Howard.
@@maybellfountain3606 my parental grandfather's side.
Excellent topic!!
10:40 You mean Thomas Howard, not Thomas Cromwell.
The step-grandmother of Anne Boleyn & Katherine Howard...
Thank you. I always wondered about her
Interesting, but a couple of errors. Toward the end you said her husband was Thomas Cromwell 🙃 when I think you meant to say Howard.
I like the concept of the video though and hope to see them continue to become more accurate over time 😊
Henry VIII was a serial killer, as was his daughter Mary - albeit for different reasons.
Elizabeth was not much better either. She just had a longer reign so other stuff could happen that overshadowed the religious killings
The identifications of portraits that the documentary claims are depictions of Catherine Howard have long ago been discredited as such.
Can you imagine having several teenage girls as wards? Impossible to control them in your sleep. They are sneaky and liars. Should have cautioned Henry as to her chastity saying she could not vouch for it instead of thinking to up herself in ranking at court for rewards. Greed.
her son probably put pressure on her too. He had profited greatly from Anne Boleyn and I am sure he expected to do the same with Katherine. He knew she was not a virgin because he told her to make sure she didn't get caught when he learned of how she occupied her time in the household.
I’m researching my Howard family and wanting help going back into the family tree
This sort of thing still continues today, only now drugs are frequently involved 😳 🙄
Agnes was responsible for the downfall of more girls the Catherine Howard. If Henry wasn’t so quick to lust and anger, it would have been a different England, though.
Just an observation re pronunciation which will make these posts more credible. ‘St. Peter ad Vincula’ should be pronounced ad VINC- ula, (that is to say, as emphasised by the capitals) and not Vin-CU-laaar. Also, ‘Executor’ isn’t pronounced ‘Executer’ . It should be ex-ECutor.( you are talking about someone who carries out the instructions in a Will…not someone who puts people to death! Very different). We may allow our American cousins some leeway with our language, but Brits / aspiring historians have no excuse.
Boleyn spelt wrong
Back then a woman paid a heavy price for basic sexual molestation. Very sad.
The English are such humble Christians. When the pope denied Henry the divorce of Catherine of Aragon, he established his own church, the Church of England, they are humble, unpretentious people.
The English were the only people brave enough to stand up to the tyrant Pope. Who gave him the power to make and break Kings. Popes dissolved lots of Royal marriages if their paws were greaser well enough
Quite a common way to become single again ;-) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnese_Visconti
Agnes Tilney is a personal favorite of mine along whit Maria de Salinas
An interesting character, she was .
Hate to be one of those correction peeps. But being from Boston the area you refere to as Stirbek is in fact Skirbeck.
Thomas Cromwell?? You mean Thomas Howard.
Ah that was so sad
How was Katherine charged with adultery when she was not married to the king at the time of her liasons?
she and her family said she was a virgin. Unless she was a widow, it would be expected that a woman would be a virgin before marriage. Especially if she is being married to the king. Then whens he was married, she was accused of conspiring to have an affair with Thomas Culpepper, which was also treason.
It wasn't Henry the viii wandering eye that caused him to have 6 wives, he had affairs before leaving Katherine of Aragon, what he wanted was an heir, a boy child to come after him.
that and the reformation in Europe. Without the reformation he wouldn't have made himself head of the church and got rid of his wives whenever he felt like it
fascinating video, maybe you can do a video of her daughter..
lady catherine howard...(died 1554*)
her first marriage to :
Lord rhys ap gruffydd....1508-1531,
a distant cousin to King Henry VIII via
(Rhys ap Tewdwr (c. 1040 - 1093) king of Deheubarth ( Dinefwr dynasty*)
later she became post 1531....
the countess of bridgewater and 2nd baroness daubney...
wife to 1st Earl of Bridgewater and 2nd Baron Daubeney...
Tge Dukes and Duchesses of Norfolk and Northumberland akways seem to have been getting killedfor freason.
I am a direct descendant of hers too.
History
❤️❤️👍👍🌌🌌
lol she kind of looks like maud apatow
Lol that was very political.
Was that "adultary" by Catherine Howard a covert attempt to become pregnant and produce a Male Heir for King Henry!?
thak you , for sharing , but the crawling images are annoying . why not just show the full picture............thank you , for sharing.......
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
I'm a descendant of her ^^
.
Ik ik it's always the man's fault n man's permiscuity..ik woman would NEVER ever have a part in these scandals...
When it comes to adults having relations with children, the adult is at fault.
@@ivyrose779 in those days no. Because adults and kids weren't a thing. Katherine takes at least some of the blame because, by rank, she was in charge in her relationships. They needed her invitation or at the very least, consent to do anything or she could get them fired or worse. HEr mother had taught her right from wrong. But her grandmother and uncle failed to teach her consequences.