Which Shogun reigns supreme? Well, read and loved the book, loved the 80s series and have mixed feeling about the new version. I like it but it is too far from the original material and missing some great moments. Granted, there are some great moments here too, but for me, the original still reigns supreme!
And by the way, all the scenes that differ were invented for the new series. The original stuck close to the book. As for Ishido, his fate was even worse in the book: passersby were invited to saw his head with a bamboo saw!
Difficult Judgement. Overall I would recommend the current one more as the old one probably looks a bit silly and too colorful for a modern audience but the old version has aspects in which it is vastly superior. Richard Chamberlain being a Star would be one of them.
I still prefer the original miniseries. I enjoy getting more Toranaga in this one, but the original characters all loomed so larger than life. I liked the fact that the new show was able to embellish and flesh out details and events, but do much of the romance and intrigue felt lost on the new series. A narration would have been better, also, with the option to remove the subs and let the narrator summarize events, as in the original. Overall, I give the new series a B+, and the original gets an A. It would get an A+ but it IS a dated miniseries, in parts.
The priests wore orange because in Japan, that was the color worn by Buddhist monks, and this was how western priests would show the commoners they were spiritual men, which gave them a social standing among the Japanese.
Only for a short period. Traditional priests came over and were like yo what u doing bro. Get dem blacks back on. Orange was short lived and wrong for the exact time period.... so computer told me.
@@EarJuice Actually, it was a specific individual of the senior Jesuits -- a man named Francisco Cabral -- showing up in Japan, and saying "nope, you're out of uniform." He reimposed the black cassocks.
People dont realise what a cultural event the 1980's version was. There were sections in newspapers with translations of multiple japanese words so western audiences could follow. Obviously was on Network TV so it could only be watched at that time and the scenes were timed to fit into advertisement breaks. The version was a complete departure from what was presented to western audiences at that time. Nothing before had been so widely watched from an Asian cultural perspective. I was a young 20 year old when it aired, loved it, read all the Clavell books after it and loved it more. About 20 years ago bought the DVD. Upon reviewing it, I thought while the story was good, the production values were poor and the music gratingly terrible and very early 80's. Never like Chamberlain as Blackthorne. The 2024 version was told from all perspectives not from just Blackthorne's. Not a criticism of the 1980's version the choice to have the audience in the dark like Blackthorne was good and just added to the alien nature of the Japanese culture. 2024 was from three main character perspectives with many other characters fleshed out. Blackthorne was our gateway to the rules of etiquette, manners, culture and philosophy of 16th century Japan. The production values, music, acting and writing of the 2024 outstripped almost anything I have seen in a series in years. It brought us along with the Japanese mindset of Toranaga to the point that an epic ending battle would have been a contradiction to the whole series and most of us have understood that. Both series had their merits, however as an original watcher and lover of Shogun, I am so grateful they made the 2024 version. 1980's was great entertainment, 2024 was almost Shakespearian.
This. I watched it in the 80s and was totally captivated but rewatching it this year was painful due to reasons you mentioned. The production value of the 2024 version is 10/10.
I can recall people who watched the 80s series picking up bits of Japanese. Wakarimasu ka? Wakarimashita. It was weird watching the new series and still remembering some of the phrases.
@@todglenn2707 I agree. It was almost impossible NOT to learn some Japanese from the '80s version. But I don't know if it is just my hearing, but in the '24 version, were some pronounced differently? I wondered if that represented changes in Japanese pronunciation as a whole. I agree with @geofmaloney though. The earlier series had some pretty awful acting at times, and that fucking music! I thought the original Mirako was absolutely gorgeous, just a huge shame about her later 'career'.
@@davebox588 I couldn't follow the Japanese in the 2024 for the most part, whereas, like you said, in the 1980's versin, it was pretty impossible not to pick up some of the Japanese phrases.
@@keithyonick5023 I've read since that this later series uses Japanese as spoken at the time. That would explain it I think. Maybe just as Shakespearean English is different but understandable to modern English ears, so some Japanese words are the same while others were probably phrased or pronounced differently. Maybe a shame not to continue the Japanese lessons, but this series isn't really for purely Western ears. Historical research globally has moved so far in the last forty years and in these more globalised times people are often more interested in their history.
The 80s version was closer to the source material in some ways, but the 2024 version was closer to actual Japanese culture. As much as he surely researched, Clavell made a lot of mistakes in that department, and the 80s version stuck to them. The new version corrected them while staying true to the spirit of the source material. Focusing primarily on Toranaga rather than Blackthorn was a good decision as well. Following him from the start, the '24 version makes us feel like we're getting to know him, which is why the ending reveal of the true depth of his ambition is such a gut punch. We thought we knew him, but we knew nothing at all, which ties greatly into the motif of hiding one's "secret heart". Hiroyuki Sanada was an inspired choice to cast as Toranaga. He brings as much gravitas and charisma as the late great Toshiro Mifune, but he also brings his incredible talent for portraying emotions so subtle you barely notice them, but also so genuine you never doubt their sincerity. His Toranaga is not merely defined by his cunning, ruthlessness and ambition. He comes off as a man who genuinely grieves the loss of lives he has to trade for victory, but is also so utterly convinced that his path is the only right one that he will not stray from it, no matter the cost. He is a much more complex character than both the novel and 80s version, which is why I prefer this iteration.
I know your not throwing shade at the 1980's version but I thought itt would be nice to point out that they didnt have internet in the 80's, atleast not like we do. The historical accuracy is because of time and more accessibility to historical documents.
Well said. His daughter even says it. He did much research but didn’t want to try to tell Japanese history. He fantasized about it and loved the culture he made his book and it a master piece. This 24 version was a Japanese point of view and Hiroyuki is a master of these types of Japanese film and knows the historical character very well. He’s done an amazing job acting and producing. Loved all versions.
@@matthewmob2860 yes she said he researched for two years before writing a word, but he always said he was to entertain first and was not an historian. Interesting character, PoW in the infamous Changi Prison in Singapore in WWII goes on to write a couple of books on Japan and quite a few on Asia itself.
@@geoffmaloney2717 More than telling history I think Clavell tried to capture something more philosophical. Almost all his novels are about the clash of cultures, and finding a bridge in between, as well as survival under difficult circumstances. I think Clavell discovered more about human nature in those camps than any of us will ever know.
The actor in the new Shogun who plays Toranaga is also an EXCELLENT actor. But the 80's version is one of the most memorable mini series I ever watched. FULL STOP.
I think that before you compare or criticise the 1980's production then first read the book.The 1980's version is so close to the book.He learns simple Japanese words while in the prison and while you laugh that he danced for Lord Toranaga and also acted the fool in order to stop Lord Ishido searching the caravan procession leaving Ishido's Castle (containing Toranaga disguised as a woman) all these elements are contained in the book.So as good as the 2024 series is,it lacks the true feel of the book.Almost every important event and character in the book is in the 1980's version.
Totally agree. When I saw the first trailer for the new version and saw that Mariko is now some kind of killer samurai warrior, I realized it would be a joke. The book (and all of Clavell's books) is excellent, and the 1980 film version respected that.
Absolutely 100%!!! I've read the novel about 20 times, and the 1980 version is much more faithful. I actually feel this version was disrespectful to the novel.
Totally agree. The 2024 version is sometimes so far away from the book I only could shake my head. Best example the failed attempt of Blackthorn to commit sebukku.
@@ilkinsuleymanzad8252 It´s 2024, dude. Why is live and let live such a big problem for guys like you? Don´t make your social anxiety a problem of everybody else. Accept that other people have different characteristics and the right to express them like you do and everything is fine. Life is to short to get angry about stuff that you can´t change. 10 people 11 styles of life. Live and let live. Easy!
yeah it's kinda hard to compare 2 things without reading the source material, you don't know which is doing things the correct way and which one is making the changes
@@MilkoInsano yeah, with analysis like this, you need to: 1. be aware of what really happened (and that is already a huge task by itself, since we interpret historical figures differently than we used to 40 years ago) 2. read the book, that was based on the real events, and keep in mind the "creative differences" towards reality 3. watch the 80s show, and keep in mind the differences toward 1 & 2 4. watch the 2024 show, and not lose your mind with everything going on :D
I'm someone who is old enough to have read the novel when it was a bestseller and saw the first miniseries when it actually aired. Both versions have their strengths and weaknesses but yes, the first one was more faithful to the novel. And perhaps most importantly to me, even though I appreciated the latter series, the first one was just more fun and entertaining. And the soundtrack by Maurice Jarre was bombastic and memorable, while the new soundtrack sounded synthetic and boring.
The soundtrack for the 80s series is so ridiculously over the top that it ruins it for me. There’s zero nuance because every action apparently requires some musical “feel this emotion” command Bad guy enters the room? Stupid musical stinger Person dies? Stupid music stinger
A couple times, that's awesome. I switched over to Tai pan to read, but I really liked Shogun the most. I liked how it almost matched up with a real shipwreck in Japan's history lol.@mikep760 I forget the year, after 1600 I think, but it's very close.
The 1980 version was much closer to the original book by James Clavell. The romance with Blackthorne and Mariko was a key part of both the book and the 1980 version. The new version does not really play that up too much. Also the new version, concentrates on Blackthorne losing and loyalty to Toranaga . That never happened in the 1980 version or the book. I liked the book the best and the 1980s version better than the current version but I’m still happy. They remade it in modern times.
100% agree. In the 2024 version the sun never shined. Each day scene was mostly overcast or foggy. The characters were mostly violent, ignorant, or manipulative.
I watched the 80s version as a kid, and I remember my mother and brother and I being so struck by the marvelous story and culture, that a month later she presented us both with our very own daisho and did so during a small mini gempukku ceremony. I had those swords for years, but lost them to my great regret when we moved from Europe to America. They were only ceremonial, not battle-ready so tempered but not sharpened. I still remember the slide of the blade from the tsuba. A truly happy memory stirred by Chamberlain's and Mifune's wonderful performances. Domou Arigatou Gozai Masu, Tsepanji no Kuni.
@@MarkFisherandJanisGillhamGrady well not really. The current version is BASED on the book. There were cultural mistakes and a very Westernised perspective. The Japanese characters were often extremely 2 dimensional. I've been saying for years that a remake was due. It would have been an awful waste to stick to Clavel's interpretation of 16th C Japanese culture. Background music aside, I really liked the '80s version, as well as the book. But this new version is a much better representation of the culture at that period (as far as I can tell).
@@colingoldie9173 Clavell developed a deep interest in Japan and the wider Asian world while a prisoner of war and from reading after that. He never was a historian in the modern sense and never claimed to be. He therefor made the central character an Englishman like himself acclimatising to Japanese culture. The events that he alludes to happened but aspects of the culture are necessarily missing. In this later version you only have to look at the credits to see how much they have tried to get everything right. There are advisors on clothing, kimono gesture, social contract, just about all aspects of 16th C Japanese culture are covered by experts in the field. Clavell's daughter spent two years in research before even starting to write. Consider also that the story is now how Toronaga uses Mariko and Blackthorne to win him Shogunship. We have the benefit of subtitles so we see how Mariko almost always mistranslates to achieve her Lord's wishes (I noticed also that she translates literally in her mediation between the paid courtesan Kiko, and Blackthorn. I put this to one side to contemplate later, but is she putting herself in Kiko's place for their encounter later? Maybe she uses Kiko's skillful description of the Japanese art of lovemaking so he understands it clearly.). The original book was groundbreaking and deserves its place as a masterpiece. You only really get at the subtleties if you reread and reread it. Most of that was missing in the original series, but jumps out in the later version.
Nagakado is in the 1980 version. He is simply known as Lord Naga, and is an aide to his father. When Blackthorne first meets him, Naga is somewhat stiff and unpleasant (Anjin calls him "an unpleasant little bugger"). When Anjin is made hatamoto, then given a fief/lordship, their relationship warms. In fact, Naga takes part in the ceremony where Anjin is given his fief. In the 1980 version, Omi's relationship to Anjin is complicated. Despite the fact that they, very much, start on the wrong foot, it is clear that Omi finds value in Anjin. He prevents Anjin from committing suicide, and begrudgingly accepts Anjin as a fellow samurai/lord. Toranaga intentionally gives Anjin the contract for Omi's lover, knowing that Anjin would give the contract over to Omi. It is hinted that this bonded the two characters forever, which was Toranaga's intent. His most important vassal, and his most important admiral will have each others backs from then on.
Not sure if it was mistakes or he merely chose to omit them from his story. What I found interesting is the immense contrast in the interpretations both these movies illustrate from the same book.
In the book, Omi accepts that he can never have Kiku and rides off, finding himself freed from his obsession with her and open to wider horizons. Quoting from the book: "I bless Toranaga for releasing me from servitude. Now nothing binds me. Neither father nor mother nor Kiku. Now I can be patient too. I'm twenty-one, I'm almost daimyo of Izu, and I've a world to conquer."
We know that William Adams (John Blackthorns real life counter part) became trusted advisor to Tokugawa Ieyasu (the real life counterpart of Yoshi Torenaga) on all things outside of Japan. Adam’s also supervised the construction of several European style ships in Japan for Ieyasu.
@@AnonymousGamer546 Indeed. There also was another European gentleman who also became samurai and hatamoto under Ieyasu. The 2024 series specifically states that Toranaga is the regent charged w/ foreign policy leadership. I wonder how Ieyasu reacted to learning the entire text of the Saragosa Treaty? 200 years of Tokugawa rule would tend to indicate that they managed the situation closely.
For me, the main difference between the two is that there is no longer Toshirō Mifune. He gave a certain authenticity and gravitas to the series that no one can duplicate.
1980s series has more colors - the sunlight, nature, dresses. Everything was in full color. 2024 version has this blue filter and lots of scenes are in the dark. I also think Toshiro Mifune's face who played shogun in the original version better translates ruthlessness of Toranaga. Mifune is a legend who played in almost 200 movies and series. He is a standard of how to depict samurai.
That's the biggest change I noticed too even in the previews that the color palette of the 2024 version is very dark while the 80's version is much brighter. So both the look and the feel of the two versions are much different with the 1980 version more of an adventure romance story will the 2024 more of a political intrigue.
@@rocketsjudokaI mean, it’d contrast the tone a bit if all the gritty stuff took place on a sunny afternoon lol. If they could add colour grading back in the 80s then they would’ve
this is also what I hate about modern movies & series, they never bath themselves under scorching sun, even if they did they color grade it to dark cloudy. Why??
@@revolvency It depends on the movie or series you are watching. Colors establish mood and atmosphere, emphasizing narrative themes. You're watching a very serious movie; expect it to be darker.
The 80s Shogun has been a yearly watch for me for many years. I've never read the book but I always knew that the 80s adaptation was focussed on Blackthorne and less so with the politics of Torenaga... Obviously I was already very fond of that version. I welcome the 2024 version for giving me all the context I was missing in the 80s version. It's hard to choose between both series as they both give you something very unique... For one, the 2024 version is filmed in British Columbia and unfortunatly... I feel like I can tell... where as the 80s version shows you actual japanese castles and countryside. The 80s version is very streamlined as well as the complexities of the politics are not very present... and having a narrator does help to highlight important information. I like both but the 80s version will always have a special place in my heart... I hope one day it is remastered.
Frankly, I don't know why Blackthorn is in Shogun 2024. He doesn't seem to serve any purpose in Shogun 2024 unless you also know what he's done in Shogun 1980. A great deal of Shogun 2024 seems to rely on knowing Shogun 1980.
@@Cryptonymicus I don't see how you can say that when it's being lauded by people who have never seen the '80s version. '80s Blackthorn follows a very well trodden "hero" narrative (Man Called Horse", "Dances with Wolves" etc). A character foreign to a culture who goes through true hardship, a harsh trial of character, before ascending to the highest levels of that society. This later Blackthorn is less of that. He starts out brash and acquisitive before learning a series of lessons and becoming immersed in the culture. Notice the early Blackthorn speaking rapidly, often without thinking or the consequences of his actions. Then see his later self. Calmer, more measured. His journey leads us into an understand of the way Japanese culture worked, and in some ways works today.
@@jdpc9391 i agree they’re great counterparts… now that the 2024 series is done… I’m sad that there’s no more of it 😢 "Flowers are only flowers because they fall"
I preferred the earlier version, as it was closer to the book. And Richard Chamberlain looked far more like the description of Blackthorne in the book. (Although Cosmo's voice was wonderful to listen to.) However, no miniseries, not even the 1980 version, could ever equal the vast pleasure of reading the book. (IMO, the difference between watching the miniseries and reading the book is like smelling the pizza baking in the oven, versus actually tasting it.) BTW, I appreciated your comparisons. You did a fine job!
I’m with you there. The only thing I liked more in the 80s series than in the book is making Blackthorne blind instead of death after the explosion. That way, the burning of the ship with him slowly recovering sight is made more dramatic.
@@jp16k92 Yes! Me too! Temporarily blinding the Anjin-san made so much more sense in getting the story across. People forget that "reading" a story is experienced in a different part of the brain than "watching" a story. (When I finished reading the book, I felt a little lost for a few days. I missed being in Japan and following all of his adventures.)
The book sparked my obsession with Japan. The art, the culture, the food, I could not get enough of it. It wasn't until nearly 30 years later that I could visit Japan, it was literally dream come true.
Shogun is one of my favorite novels. I’ve read it at least 3 times. The love story is the emotional core of the book. While I enjoyed the new miniseries, I thought it gutted that core, turning the romance into what felt more like a high school crush. I kind of wish they had made a 3-season series, with ~7 episodes per season, in order to expand upon the world while also retaining the Blackthorne-Mariko romance. Just my two cents.
Thank you for this informative comparison video. The 80s version had an edge of ‘mysterious Japan’; it was back when we (especially those of us involved in Japanese martial arts) were fascinated by that aspect. The modern version rightly assumes the audience knows a little more Japanese culture and treats us accordingly. The inclusion of classical Japanese language was a brilliant idea and had me reaching for my dusty classical Japanese language book. The one thing I struggled with was the dark, grey, wet appearance to the modern version. It was gloomy, dour and I found it oppressive. It seems to be ubiquitous and fashionable in modern filming. This will date Shōgun 24 for future viewers just as the over saturated colours of 80s Shōgun helps to date it (and those even earlier ‘green tinted 60s films’). Both versions have their charms, the 80s version has a few cringey moments too. I liked the visual warmth of the original and the cultural authenticity of the new version. I look forward to the Blu-Ray of Shōgun ‘24 coming out with all it’s extras and will likely be watching that more than the original.
Nah, the places they picked in Canada were perfect, they can serve as Japan. You say it looks "very dark"... have you been to Japan? I've been to Nagoya, a few years ago... the countryside can be preeeetty dark.
Totally agree in terms of time. That's a huge problem. Personally I would have liked that they would tell the Story of the Tokugawa Ieyasu, then we would have material for several seasons. 😍 The "Shogun" story is just too short.
The 1980's version is vastly superior to the 2024 version... the new version is just a popcorn version of the real story with lots of pretty visual effects and lots of women empowerment thrown in... something totally impossible in a middle age feudal Japan. Also inferiors contradicting and disobeying their superiors orders is rampant in the 2024 version... an offense punishable by death at the time.
Orange on the Priests is explained in the book. They wear Orange to match the Orange robes of Buddhist monks. They were approprating the religious wear of the Japanese
@@steveyi2859 No they shouldn't. It was explained in the book, but the book was wrong. Or off anyway. They did use orange early one, but switched back to black by 1600
@@coltfan1726 The book wasn't wrong. It was a book of historical fiction, mirroring but not necessarily portraying true events. Edo was called Yedo in the novel. Anjiro, from the novel was Ajiro in the 2024 version. The novel was its own world so it need not be completely historically accurate. If you're writing a history then do so and forget about the novel.
I think that both series are very good. The 80's version probably had more charm and spent more time on introducing Japan's history and customs to the audience. I guess that today's audience have a better knowledge of ancient Japan in general; making some information unneccessary, but it was still a very nice touch. One thing I disliked about the new Shogun was the colour palette...or lack thereof. Everything was always very grey. I guess there is no sunny weather in Japan anymore. The 80's Shogun was actually shot in Japan, by the way.
Yes thank you for saying that! Seems like most movies made today are dark and dreary. I loved the bright beautiful colors in the 80's version and the funny light moments!
I've seen the 80's version twice. I really enjoyed it. I've just finished the 2024 one and it's absolutely outstanding. Yes it does seem a little slow halfway through but the final episodes are incredible. You should try again my friend 🥰
No, the new ending doesn't say that war is averted, it says that Toranaga has a chance at winning at Sekigahara, because the Heir's troops will not join the battle. Toranaga says five armies WILL meet at Sekigahara, but Lady Ochiba will make sure the Heir's army will not support Ishido there. He also says that this will cause the other leaders to turn against Ishido. Buthat will only happen there, on the battlefield, so that Ishido will have no chance to do something about it. This mirrors Yodo-dono not deploying Hideyori's troops and thus not formally supporting Ishida, leading to him having a shaky authority and several daimyos switching sides over the course of the Battle of Sekigahara.
For it's time, the 1980 version is/was an epic and still reigns as one of the greatest series of all time IMO. The 1980 version followed the book religiously (with a few notable exceptions) while the 2024 version takes a lot of liberties with the story, but overall ends up in the same place. Since this is a work of fiction based on historical events, poetic license is acceptable in the re-telling while overall staying true to historical events. You can't compare the production values since technology has come so far in the intervening 44 years, but for it's time, the 1980 version was outstanding. Frankly I'm not so upset that the 2024 version wasn't a bespoke retelling of the 1980 version and had a uniqueness to the story and the characters that was different from the 1980 version. The main difference being the 1980 version told the story from Blackthorn's point of view, while the 2024 series told the story from the Japanese point of view. I'm a fan of both! To this day (I'm in my late 60's), Shogun is still one of the best books I've ever read as is most of Clavell's works. It's outstanding to watch this epic novel come to life using current technology.
So true. Fucking awful background music aside, the '80s version was a complete departure from most storytelling at the time. It misses most of the subtlety in the book, but still a good effort. In a nutshell, the '80s version is the story of Blackthorn helping Toronaga become Shogun. The '24 version is how Toronaga uses Blackthorn as one of his hawks to attain the same position. PS. that other Clavell film, Tai-Pan, needs remaking as well. The book is fascinating, while Australian Dan Brown affecting a Scottish accent for the film is laughable. Very little sense of place either.
If I can say James Clavell's daughter was a part of the script in the show. It will be good if in that energy Michaela Clavell can make a series about King Rat, Tai Pan or Gai Jin like a continue to the saga... until then I really loved the new adaptation of Shogun even if with in compare the 80's version was just legendary. But yeah I really hope this TV show get more viewers and hopefully it will get the needed appreciation from the audience.
@@cybele_m Great observations IMO, and I agree. The book tells a lot more about each major character's inner thoughts and motivations, and I believe the '24 version is better at revealing those. Also you'll recall how right at the beginning of that later version that Toronaga is out hawking and describes how his hawk (presumably a peregrine) comes out of the Sun so the prey doesn't know it's there until it strikes. That's a perfect metaphor for Mariko, who is polite, subservant and contained until the moment she appears out of nowhere and her actions result in the disintegration of the Council of Regents who up to that point had been in broad agreement. In the book and '24 version it's clear that Mariko dies by her own actions (voluntarily standing in front of the door) and thus suffers a samurai death. That event is not so clear in the '80s version where it appears almost an accident that she's there. Not dissing the '80s version at all. I have watched it countless times over the years, but it was a series of its time and it would have been disappointing if the latest version hadn't done a better job.
@@davebox588finally someone who acknowledges how awful the music is for the 80s version. I saw two clips and it almost put my off watching the show altogether
@@YodaOnABender I KNOW, RIGHT! Jeez, I know this was forty years ago, but honestly: WTaF! And composed by Jean-Michel's Dad? No wonder they were estranged.
If you read the book you will see that the movie from the 80s is hundred % more accurate to the book. That's why I really appreciate the one from the 80s more but I do appreciate the new one as well. But if I have to chose 1, the one from the 80s is much better because actually almost the whole story is focused on Blackthorn and Mariko not like the new adaptation in Ishido, Lady Ochiba and Toranaga. And that's how it is in the book as well. Oh and also I really don't understand how in the 80's they did the job and for 9 hours they putted the whole story better and even some small details was fact even with the long music scenes typical for the 80's period. And in the new one they missed so much of the details about the story... I appreciate the details about the costumes and the Japanese culture but like they missed the details about the actual story... Like example I really missed the story about Kiku in the last when Toranaga give her like consort to Blackthorn and he give his documents to Omi...and actually if you do the math 10x60 mins is even more time than the previous one... but like every episode almost 2-3 mins are only for script... :D and okay I appreciate Hiruyuki Sanada version but he put too much time in the episodes about the actual Japanese culture like food scenes etc. instead of some details that was very important from the actual story from the book... what a waste...that's why the one from the 80's is much much better... But still for 2024 the new one is 10/10 for me.
They kept some scenes from the book but rushed them to the point of completelly missing their significance. Like Omi pissing on Blacthorne - in the book Blacthorne submits to humiliation to save his men, in 2024 he is physically subdued.
because James Clavell, the author of the historical fiction was part of the writing process in the original version so he would know which scenes should be included in the miniseries to capture the novel's essence. I also prefer the 80s version because I am after a faithful adaptation of the novel which I truly liked as a teen and am not after historical accuracies that I can learn in a documentary or a history book.
Mariko 2024 strikes me as a modern woman with a chip on her shoulder and when the actress is speaking English she sounds like an American. Not very convincing.
@@Cryptonymicus I enjoyed 2024 Mariko overall because the actress is gorgeous, talented, and the series is sensational, but the lack of Japanese accent when she speaks English is an issue for me too, as are her looks, because her beauty isn't stereotypically japanese. Unlike the actress who plays Fuji, for example. Boy I so wish we had more of her.
Buntaro describes her as icy in the books though. It was a major sticking point of why their relationship was so strained after he summoned her back from exile - she was cold to him and had clearly lost respect for him and only served him because she was duty-bound by Toranaga. Cold and duty-bound is what she was *supposed* to be towards Anjin as well, not some warm, Polly-Anna romantic love story. She even makes it a point to say many times in the books that "love" is a Christian word and Japanese relationships are instead steeped in duty and honor. In fact in the book after the earthquake, she states to Anjin that Patience is one of the pillars of strength and denying affection is one of the main tenants of Patience. In the book, it's pretty well established she slept with Anjin mostly out of duty to Toranaga because she assumed he would ask her about his physical proportions. And she was correct, he did ask her that. Her personal curiosity about him as a pillower was pretty clearly tangential in the books. Indeed, she denied the affair immediately afterwards even directly to Anjin, acting callously towards him the entire time, and claiming it was one of Fujiko's maids and he was too drunk to remember. Only later did she demurely admit to it with Anjin, but under extreme caution that her life was at risk by doing so. The 2024 version portrayed her quite accurately to the character established in the book, and she serves the narrative well as a cultural ambassador contrasting Anjin's emotional, impulsive, and reactionary outbursts.
Richard Chamberlain all but demanded the part of Anjin in the 1980 series, and was miss cast, looking as much like a rugged seaman as Leonardo DiCaprio! But the star of the 80s series was Toshiro Mifune, an actor who brought the Samurai to life in many Kurosawa films over the years
The 1980 version adheres more closely to Clavell's book which I like because I have read the book many times. The Anjin san seppuku scene is very significant and occurs early on, because it happens when Anjin finally realizes that he must think and act Japanese if he is going to survive. In the 1980 version, Yabu, Omi and Mariko give his effort great seriousness which it merits. The 1980 version shows the character development of Anjin into living like a Japanese early on whereas the 2024 version continues to portray Blackthorne as sort of a bumbling white guy throughout until the last episode. Also, in the 1980 version the love story of Anjin and Mariko is given much more time and development with Mariko instructing Anjin in Buddhist philosophy and Japanese culture. The 2024 version is riveting in its portrayal of Japanese culture. However, as I like the book so much, the many small changes to Clavell's story are a little annoying to me. I wish the 2024 version had done two seasons and given the details of Blackthorne's character development and the love story more time.
I havent read the book yet, so I was watching the 2024 series sort of like it was a standalone thing. Caring not about the show’s fidelity with the book but rather its narrative quality, I think Blackthorn committing seppuku at such an early stage of his development would not have made sense. The ultimate end-point of his development was to embrace Japanese culture, because he will never be going back to England. Blackthorn throughout the show demonstrated slow integration, starting off with the little things like minding his cleanliness and starting to adhere to Japanese rituals and practices. Then he started to understand the deeper culture of the Japanese people, why they’re so detail-minded and distant. Then he started to speak the language… idk where you saw him being just a “bumbling white dude”. Though luck was on his side, he still had to do a lot of things that took a lot of grit, tenacity, insight and some cunning to maneuver his way thru Japan’s weird bureaucracy, assimilation being one of them. But Sepuku has always been at the extreme end of Japanese culture, and at the beginning Blackthorn could not even accept that he may die in Japanese lands. It makes sense that only when Blackthorn is finally able to accept his fate in the Japans, he was willing to sacrifice his life for the village and die in a country that he once vowed to leave. It makes less sense if he was willing to do that mid-show, when he’s just barely able to understand why japanese people were so very willing to take their own lives away.
@@khylaldana2757 , if you read the book, you will understand that the changes in Blackthorne took place over the first 6 months as he was learning the language and the way of life around him.
Personally I thought Blackthorne's character in the 2024 version seemed much less significant than the 1980's where it was almost given centre stage. The scene in the 80's version where Blackthorne gives Kiku's contract to Omi was just fabulous. I would love to know what Omi says to him, but of course no subs. Presumably something along the lines of 'a debt I can never repay....'
Personally, I prefer the 1980s version (granted I did watch it first). I don’t want to dismiss the achievements of the modern adaptation, I think it’s great that we get to see the Japanese characters’ side of the story that we didn’t get to see in the original, but I think they diminished the European characters too much. In a perfect world all the factions would get equal screen time. Plus, I’m at a point in my life where I’m tired of dark, bleak movies and TV shows, I see it everywhere-I miss the levity and bombastic nature of older cinema.
The 1980s miniseries was actually unsuccessful in Japan because audiences found it too dark and grotesque (with elements of condescension towards their culture.) But yes, I get what you mean (although at age 25, I'll admit I have more stomach for darkness, I just want it to be in service of something besides "Game of Thrones did it!") But 2024 makes a lot of changes for the negative- why change Blackthorne meeting his old crew and realizing he's on a different path to "Blackthorne beats up his drunk friend in an alley fight"?
@@vishaansingh1019 Maybe because of the butchered version of just two hours, right? So we will never know if they will warm up to the longer miniseries.
It's too much for me to escape the nostalgia feels of the 1980 version. It just hit me at the perfect time in my life and I'll always love it. I did enjoy the 2024 a great deal though and it would still be up there among my favorite miniseries
3:50 Many katholic priests wore orange back then, because their japanese counterparts (mostly buddhists) also wore orange. Makers of the new Shogun Series choose to change that because they didn't wanna ruin the color grading and dark look they created.
The first one is almost 100% faithful to the novel, which I think is a good thing since I'm not sold on the changes made in the 2024 version. The 2024 version is a much better production, though. Top costume design, scenography, photography and acting, while the 1980 version was more of what you would expect from a TV production in those days,
With respect to Hiroyuki Sanada, NO ONE can come close to Toshiro Mifune’s charisma and stature-even without translation. In the 2024, the photography was beautiful, the women perfectly shot but it was Tadanobu Asano that stole every scene he appeared in.
I'm only halfway through the 2024 one. I loved the 1980 and loved the book. So far, I miss the inner politics of the Japanese Catholic priests. I miss a little of the romance. I think Mariko's character is too cold and bitter - she doesn't hid her feelings at all. I miss the interesting and complex relationship between Omi and Anjin and how hit evolves. The scene with the "unless I win" line I thought was much better in 1980 - it was about rebelling against your liege lord, a much more subtle question, steeped in honor and honesty and a question that is weighing heavily on Toranaga's as he contemplates treason and is surrounded my betrayal. Anjin responds to the accusation of rebellion that there were mitigating circumstances. Toranaga says there are never mitigating circumstances in rebellion. Anjin wryly smiles and replies, "unless you win", capturing Toranaga's heart. That is so much more rich than 2024's "why fight a battle hopeless battle". I also missed the extended conversations about the pheasant with Fuji, and the aftermath of the execution. I also think that Anjin's and Rodrigues' relationship is a lot more fun and developed in 1980. I thought the "would you prefer a boy" scene in 1980 was a lot better - it showed the cultural differences a lot. (Though even there, I missed the conversation about a "duck" from the book - too funny.) What I like of 2024? It is less campy. In 1980, I thought the lack of subtitles allowed us to feel Anjin's isolation, but having them in 2024 allows us to get more of the story from the Japanese perspective. I like that they've given the female characters more depth. I like that they've cut out some of the suicide (in the book, it seems like every other page someone was committing suicide - OK, author, we get the point). I like that they've moved a little focus from Anjin - he's not the solver of every problem. I miss the almost regal bearing of Richard Chamberlin - but maybe that's a good thing as it gets us away from the "white man comes and becomes the best of them" trope. I don't know, watch them both. And then read the book - it's great.
Read all his books, 80 version closer to book however Iike the changes in today s depiction. Shogun is a great love story and culture story, Muriko is the true Samurai in both renditions
Well they didn’t “omit” the backstory with Ochiba and Mariko. It was invented for the ‘24 version since they decided to elevate Mariko’s character and make Blackthorne a supporting character in his own story
Agreed. What both versions didn't do was Ochiba's "disdain," for Toranaga because she was afraid he may have seen her pillowing a peasant who looked like The Taiko. She wanted to sire the son he wanted after the death of his first born. In truth Ochiba secretly desired Toranaga. Mariko never had a friendship back story with Ochiba nor were they acrimonious. In fact Ochiba was only slightly jealous of Mariko's talent as a poetess.
I watched the 1980’s version after reading the book and again before I watched the current one. The biggest difference was the 1980’s was much more a love story with the current one more of a subtle inspection of the Japanese culture.
@@hueyslick291 Yeah, they definitely cranked up the romance for the '80 version. I think they turned it down so much for the '24 version that it almost doesn't make sense for Blackthorne to react as he does to her death.
They also changed the relationships. While the 24 version makes Kuroda (who was killed by Mariko's father) the father of Ochiba the historical Kuroda, being Oda Nobunaga, was not (if I remember correctly he was an uncle).
In the mini-series, Blackthorn's men warmly receive him when they meet again, though he's disgusted by them (only shown when he takes off his kimono afterwards and demands it be burned as it's bug infested). However, they do join him help fix the Erasmus before he heads to Osaka again (iirc).
The 1980 version was closer to the book, the story was centered on Blackthorne, as it was on the book. The 2024 version was adapted to be more Japanese centered. It makes sense to me, since Toranaga on the 2024 is portrayed by Hiroyuki Sanada, thus as a Japanese, he decided to flesh out the Japanese characters more and changes that he felt were closer to the true story of Tokugawa Ieyasu, the real man who united Japan. I like them both. The 2024 cut significantly the interaction between Blackthorne and his crew, as well with Father Alvito and Vasco Rodrigues, there were nice ancillary stories both on the book and the 80's series, and gave more importance to the Black Ship (which did exist). And indeed on the book the character was called Kasigi Yabu, not Kashigi Yabushide. In the 80's version and the book the love story between Mariko and Blackthorne is developed further and both Buntaro and Toranaga suspected about it, a fact confirmed when Mariko bequeath the money for Blackthorne to build a new ship. In the end, artists can adapt source materials according to their sensibilities, the 80's version was American produced, the 2024 version have Japanese producers, more familiar with the real story of the Sengoku period than many western audiences, thus, having the series seen more through the Japanese point of view was interesting and refreshing to me. It would have made no sense whatsoever to recreate the 80's series frame by frame on the 2024 version with new actors.
Of course I read the book and watched the original series several times. I have just finished the new series and found it to be very good by today's standards. Both versions have pros and cons, as mentioned in many comments. For me, Hiroyuki Sanada as Toranaga is very well done, although very different from the 1980 version. But if you compare Hiroto Kanai as Kashigi Omi in the 2024 version with the 1980 portrayal (Yûki Meguro), Yûki Meguro appears much more masculine. But what happend with Mariko? The actress Anna Sawai has a very cool, modern appearance, almost arrogant. Given her past, Mariko would to have a differently character, like women in feudal Japan in general. They tried to write a strong female role and didn't realize what the real strength of the real Mariko from the book was. Yoko Shimeda portrayed this perfectly in the 1980 series. Gentle on the outside but tough on the inside. This gave the dialogs with Anjin interesting moments. For the role of Mariko, I would have preferred Fumi Nikaidô (Ochiba No Kata). Anna Sawai Anna Sawai with her bossy Style would have been the bette fit for the Role from Ochiba No Kata. However, I also wonder why I never saw her as a Japanese?
Yes, the actor playing Rodriquez/Gimli is called John Rhys-Davies. However, I also had to google the name because I didn't remember it. Either the video creator no longer knew the name and was too lazy to google it, or he assumed that viewers wouldn't be able to relate to the actor's name, but they would be able to relate to the name of the dwarf from Lord of the Rings.
I like the actor for John much better in the 80's version, but in general the '24 version is much more sophisticated and subtle. But Toshiro Mifune is a force to be reckoned with.
If I remember correctly, in real life priests wore black at first but were not taken seriously by locals so Francis Xavier had them wear orange like buddhist monks.
I suppose that I'll never get the version of Shogun that I have always wanted. The 80s version was very close to the novel. It focused more on the Anjin/Mariko relationship and omitted most of the intrigue with the Japanese characters. The producers of the 80s version didn't think that the audience would be interested enough or that there would be budget enough to make a 22 hour miniseries. Which is what they figured would be the length of the story if they did the entire novel. In the book, Yabu was Yabu. Not Yabushige. The cannon scene didn't happen. Toranaga's son didn't die. Lady Ochiba and Mariko did not have a childhood back story. Yedo stood in for Edo, and Anjiro was not Ajiro. While the new version was interesting, I felt that the Blackthorne character was made to be kind of goofy and did not adapt well to his situation as he did in the novel. Of course, the new adaptation is really only loosely connected to the novel. It is quite a different story in many ways which is fine as many films take liberties with original material. The producers of the 80s version had to stick closely to the novel as it had only been five years since it's release and it had huge popularity. My ideal version of Shogun would be the 22 hour epic that will never be made. I guess it's time to read the book again.
The 1980's version followed the book much closer. Not sure how this reviewer missed that Toranaga destroyed Blackthorne's ship as he actually says it. Blackthorne thinks it was Mariko, but although she did manage to keep him alive, she did not burn the ship.
Really enjoying all the differences you found. Thank you for putting them all together. I enjoyed the small homages to the 80’s version, in the 2024. The drop of water on the leaf at the tea house in the 2024 version, mirrors Mariko’s tear in the 80’s version. Toranaga’s line about her being a bonfire, a callback to her funeral in the 80’s. Not sure if there were others.
Look at Blackthorne's kimono in the new version. The colors are different but otherwise, it the same as the white and brown kimono worn by Chamberlain in the promo pics.
It should be noted that one of the biggest reasons there are so many differences is that the current treatment strays much more from the novel than the 1980 version, it would be interesting to marry this video with a comparison of both to the novel. The filming aspect difference is right on, the 1980 version has not-so-appropriate music and has the distinct feel of a TV mini-series, whereas the current version is much more cinematic. One glaring difference not mentioned (not related to the story) is that the previous version was filmed in Japan but the current one was filmed in Canada - so many trees in the village it seemed like everyone was camping out, I think that affected my opinion of the current series (I have been to Japan many times, the trees in the series are very different). For the record, I first read the book when it was released and since read it many times. I also watched the 1980 series when it came out and later bought the DVD set. The current version really hit the mark on showing the culture, sets, and costumes but the 1980 series came close. Blackthorn is shown in the current series as fairly rough and barbarian like and Mariko much more brooding and her lack of Japanese accented English did not feel right. The Portuguese presence in the current version strays far from the novel and the 1980 version, they are almost nonexistent.
I like the 1980 version better, but that's because I saw it first. However, I have read the book multiple times and I can say unequivocally that the 1980 Shogun is basically the book on film. I dislike the changes made to the book by the 2024 version, such as when Blackthorne tries to commit seppuku. It made far more sense in the 1980 version because after he's stopped he realizes he has started a new life. I may get flack for this, but Yoko Shimada was so, so beautiful and *deep* and the new actress just plays it like she's eaten some bad shrimp. The names were, it seems, made to fit the time period, thus Fujiko is 'Fuji' in the 2024 version. And as far as I can remember, there IS no backstory between Mariko and Lady Ochiba in the book either. One thing that's made clear in the book, but in neither version, is that Ochiba hates Toranaga because she thinks he knows something no one else does. She thinks he knows that the Heir (son of the Taiko) is actually the son of a peasant that Ochiba ran into and used as a sperm donor (no DNA in 1600!!). And people keep saying, oh, the modern version looks more like Japan. WHAT? The 1980 version WAS ACTUALLY FILMED IN JAPAN. THAT IS REALLY JAPAN in the 1980 version. I liked Blackthorne's outfits better in the 1980 version too. In the 2024 version he looks like he's wearing a bathrobe the whole time. Also, Naga survives the 1980 mini-series (and also survived in the book). And no one can play mystery and weirdness like Damien Thomas (Father Alvito) could. He was awesome.
the 1980's version is definitely much more of a fun watch, the characters get to have happy moments in that version. the modern one is very gritty and cinematic with much more depth to the characters
Less depth, in my opinion - except for Hiroyuki Sanada. I think I prefer his more nuanced performance than Toshiro Mifune. I also preferred Ishido and Yabu in this version. But Anna Sawai was totally one note as Mariko. She cannot compare to the radiant Yuki Shimada. But I did not like Omi, Kiku, Fujiko, Ochiba, Father Alvito, Rodriguez. There was just an unrelenting, dismal tone. It varied way too much from the original novel.
Fun fact: when shogun was originally broadcast (yes, I saw it them) - there was no Orson Well's narration and one of the reason for no subtitles was expense (at least that is what TV Guide said). On a later rebroadcast - the narration was added.
12:03 The Buddhist priests wore orange and the Catholic Jesuits wanted to be seen as holy men. So they adopted the color. Latter a new head of the order in Japan made them convert back to black.
The 80's version is a typical representation of the quirky Japan created by Americans staffs. The new version has decent details due to the involvement of many Japanese staffs in its production.
Two huge differences come to mind for me. The 1980s version seems to always be shot in bright light, whereas the modern version makes much more use of darkness and shadows. Also, in the 1980s version, everyone looks relatively clean, whereas in the modern version the characters look more realistic, covered at times with sweat, blood, and dirt.
The '80s version was stunning! More pageantry, more character development, more historical context with respect to the geopolitics of the 1600s. The quality of the characters was levels higher. John Rhys-Davies as Vasco Rodriquez stole every scene he was in, the guy how played Father Alvito, had more screen presence and dignity. And, Toshiro Mifune as Lord Toranaga is priceless. The 2024 version was dark and brooding. The courtesans in the 2024 version were depicted as scrawny, scheming, manipulating females one level above rats. While in the book and 80's versions there shown as cultured beautiful women with intelligence. Kiko even rushes to Omi's wife when she arrives home to tell her what has transpired and to assure her Omi is well. The 2024 version is definitely a step down from the book and '80s miniseries.
Sweat and dirt doesn't necessarily make it more realistic. Cleanliness was a big deal back then. The notion that people didn't really wash in the past is a bit of a myth. Sure, the French didn't (jk), but other people surely did.
@@lsamoa Blackthorne's crisp white shirt seemed to defy physics even after being kept in a stinking pit for days. As to washing, both both the '80s and '24 Blackthorns complain about washing twice in a week for fear of the flux. Let's be clear, initially even by rough camping standards, Blackthorn would have stunk.
The funny things about 24 version is that they purposely choose to do things either early in the morning, late afternoon, at sunset, or at night...which did not make sense. I assume people in the past would utilize daylight as much as they could....like who the hell would do seppuku at sunset? That would be tedious to do the cleaning later.
So a friend of mine who is a native Japanese speaker said that the Japanese spoken on Shogun 2024 is that of the period and not easy to understand as a modern Japanese speaker. Don't think Elizabethan English vs Modern. Think Chaucer vs modern. That's extraordinary attention to detail
They diminished Omi sooo much in the 2024 version. This incarnation of Omi shows him as looking a little younger, a little smaller, and a lot less authoritative and intimidating as the 80s version of the same character.
@@Fred_L. I suppose so. But the casting direction is still an odd one. After all, he is supposed to be like some sort of head samurai. To be kind of puny is a bit belittling considering his position of authority.
It’s too bad that the narrator or the script writer of this video didn’t actually read the book. I feel that the 80s version was superior because it actually stuck to the book. The modern version was beautiful with its production values., however, it wasn’t the book and maybe they could’ve found another title. Some of the questions that the narrator had were answered in the book. Anyway, I recommend reading the book. It’s a great read and I believe you would thoroughly enjoy it.
That is why this youtuber should read the novel first before making this video. And fans of the new version should read to the novel and if they are not avid readers to listen to the audio book. The only edge of the new version is the production values. But it is 2024 so they should do better in terms of production but the 80s version was actually groundbreaking at that time. I can accept those who prefer this new version if they had read the novel because that means they love the changes made by the producers/writers of this new version. I, however, prefer films and tv shows to be more faithful to the source material as much as possible even though I know the medium will be different.
I loved the book , Clavell changed it for the mini series focusing on Blackthorn, which i loved , but was of its time . The new series was brilliant as well , which one do I prefer The Book you can never make a show that has the intimate details of a book .
2:31 It's been decades since I read the book but I'm 90% certain his name is just Yabu. I think the name changes in the modern version are to make the series more palatable for a Japanese audience. The original was written with only a western audience in mind, and some of the names might sound ridiculous in modern Japan. They also changed the names of some locations to their modern versions (e.g. Anjiro -> Ajiro).
The 1980s version used the names from the novel, no name was shortened. The 1980s version is supreme for the following reasons: Yoko Shimada Toshiro Mifune Richard Chamberlain John-Rhys Davies Damien Thomas Furankî Sakai Vladek Sheybal Yûki Meguro Alan Badel
Considering the time and that it was made for TV the 1980 version was quite good. I'd read the book several times before the series came out, and was not unhappy with the TV version overall. The modern version didn't focus on the romance aspect oddly.
I would disagree that the battle didn't take place. I believe that although Ishido realizes he has been outmaneuvered from the message, like the daimyo of episode 7, he would still have fought even though the final result was already determined.
According to several people I spoke to, Portuguese priests wearing orange garments in the 1980 Mini-Series was explained in the novel. It was because the Japanese required this of them because priests in Japan wore orange.
Actually Yabu's name in the book IS Yabu not Yabushige. Fuji is named Fujiko in the book. How about making a video about the differences between both TV series and the novel? 😉😉 Aesthetically the 2024 version is gorgeous and obviously has the budget and technology. The costumes are absolutely beautiful! It is far superior in visual presentation. The 80's version is slightly closer to the book. Storywise I prefer the 80's version because Clavell's intent was to tell the story through Blackthorne's POV of a stranger in a strange land adapting into a different culture and later gaining respect. The new version made Blackthorne more of an observer than the focal point. The dramatic licenses like Hiromatsu's death, Fuji's final fate and Mariko's Christian burial veered away from the source material more. Yes both Blackthorne and Mariko did share a bathtub in the book and the 80's version. The 2024 version didn't want to tread on modern sensibilities. That boat scene with Blackthorne and Fuji did tug at the heartstrings though. It is a beautiful scene but not in the book. Hiroyuki Sanada is fantastic but Toshiro Mifune is Toshiro Mifune. There was more chemistry between Richard Chamberlain and Yoko Shimada than Cosmo Jarvis and Anna Sawai.
I remember watching the 1980s version of Shogun when it was new. It was amazing and the performances were stellar. The lack of subtitles was a brave decision and paid off - we're all in the dark with Blackthorne until he learns rudimentary Japanese. The 2024 version also has incredible performances, and I've read that the Japanese spoken in this version is closer to the Japanese from that period (the equivalent of Elizabethan English). Overall, I think the 2024 version has a more "realistic" feel to it and the cinematography is pure poetry. But I love them both.
I personally prefer the original leading cast to the update. I can't warm up to the new Blackthorne. I find him annoying and beyond arrogant considering his situation. IMO, Richard Chamberlain was perfectly cast. The new Mariko is not as delicate or charming as the old. And while Hiro Sanada is one of my favorite actors and isn't a slouch portraying Toranaga, Toshiro Mifune is still the gold standard in that role as far as I'm concerned. Also, I love that they filmed in Japan for the original. The change made to Mariko's character, i.e., warrior training, isn't even part of the book as far as I remember, and it GRATES. I hate when women's roles and characters are updated for the current "girl boss" indoctrination, taking a sharp departure from the source material. There is nothing wrong with traditional female traits and strengths. I also don't like how Omi has been weasel-fied. I liked him very much in the original.
Reread the book. Mariko engages in combat several times in the book. Only in the book, Mariko fights with a sword instead of the naginata that she uses in the 2024 miniseries. The book also mentions that it was common for samurai to train their daughters in combat so that they could defend the home. There is nothing "girl bossy" about 2024 Mariko. She's a traditional Samurai woman with a traditional Samurai upbringing, and it's faithful to the book.
@@bewilderedbeest Yes, samurai women were trained to defend their families and commit seppuku (need to be accurate with the blade). I read the book a long time ago and can't remember Mariko fighting Ishido's guards like in the 2024 version. Though you think that new version Mariko is not girl bossy, she was not portrayed with the kind of delicate grace and femininity Mariko possessed in the novel. One can be feminine and still know how to defend oneself if needed. The behavior of 2024 Mariko is too modern and wouldn't be accepted in patriarchal and fuedal Japan.
One thing I noticed is that the Japanese always add "san" to a person's name but fail to do so in the new series. It is a polite form of address when talking to someone. They do it in the original series, and in the book, but not in the new series. It would actually have been extremely rude to address a person without adding "san" to their name. The new series does use "sama", which is the suffix used when addressing someone of higher rank, but not "san", which is typically used for everybody else.
The better question would be which version more closely matches the book. It seems you haven't read the book. It is an absolute certainty that the book is best, and actually contains much more material. It's also certain that no movie would fail to make some changes to the story, but hopefully not the important points. One thing about the book: there are a bunch of languages, Dutch, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Latin, Japanese, and maybe even a little Italian and Chinese. And the reader always knows what language is being spoken, and which characters speak that language. This is a very key plot point, and the 1980 version's biggest failing is that they left all this out. (Did you ever notice that most Nazi villains actually speak English, with maybe a German accent?)
You’ll need to read the book to understand the 80’s version, which is closer to the book than the modern retelling (which takes way too many liberties in the story). Examples: - Yabu’s name is Yabu in the book, not Yabushige. A number of names are changed in the modern version (without explanation) - In the original, the timing of Toranaga is spot on, and the situation is straight out of the book - The orange robes are worn as they replicate the ones worn by Buddhist monks, and a way for the Jesuits to blend in (explained in the book) - The jail scene is accurate to the book - The assassination attempt of Blackthorne is also accurate in the 80’s; using assassins of the Amida - The Mariko and Ochiba back story is completely made up in the modern version - Fujiko’s husband’s death didn’t ‘help’ Toranaga. It was seen as shameful, and he is put to death (as is their son) Also, in the 80’s, like in the book, Blackthorne is the main protagonist, with Mariko a closer second, and the story around Toranaga, third. In the modern story, is more Mariko heavy - she is ultimately the main character. James Clavell was also consulted for the 80’s version, and insisted on the story being faithful to his bookz
though the earlier version was melodramatic, it established the relationships and had a lot better chemistry btw most of the cast. what i appreciate about the newer version is a japanese pov, sets/costumes etc. anna played mariko well but lacked both chemistry and charisma of yoko shimada... but then you'd have had to watch the first one first for comparison. cosmo played blackthorne better as a scumbag pilot/ sailor but like the new mariko, lacked chemistry and the directors didn't establish relationships very well. toronaga/sinada was fine but lacked the gravitas of mifune. in contrast, i did like the casting of the bontaro, yabu, ochiba, and fuji better than the original. in fact, i thought the actresses that played ochiba or fuji could've been cast better as mariko.
That's exactly what I thought. The actress Anna Sawai has a very cool, modern appearance, almost arrogant. Given her past, Mariko would to have a differently character, like women in feudal Japan in general. They tried to write a strong female role and didn't realize what the real strength of the Mariko from the book was. Yoko Shimeda portrayed this perfectly in the 1980 series. Gentle on the outside but tough on the inside. This gave the dialogs with Anjin interesting moments. For the role of Mariko, I would have preferred Fumi Nikaidô (Ochiba No Kata). Anna Sawai Anna Sawai with her bossy Style would have been the bette fit for the Role from Ochiba No Kata. However, I also wonder why I never saw her as a Japanese.
In the novel, Blackthorne was not a scumbag nor a bumbling fool but he was arrogant because he was a navigator, a senior rank given to male members of educated families in England and sometimes even to gentlemen/gentry. So the new Blackthorne did not portray this character properly. And old version Omi was a lot better. Actually, all the cast of the original version were a lot better in terms of acting and presence. In the new version, I can accept most of the cast even though they were mostly out of character based on the book but I can't accept the new Blackthorne. I like the new version Fuji better, though.
I saw the 80s version first, and liked it. The 2024 version was also good in its own way! The only thing that bothered me with the 2024 version was the absolute lack of chemistry between Mariko and John. In the 80s version, from the first moment they see each other, the sympathy and mutual attraction is undeniable, whereas in the 2024 version, I couldn't help feeling that Mariko really disliked him! When they were at last intimate, I had to wonder why? Because the absolute lack of buildup to that made it make no sense. Did anyone else miss the chemistry from the 80s version, in the 2024 version?
They change so much in the new version that a lot of events/actions couldn't be explained properly because events leading to those actions did not really take place. And a whole lot more.
Making it an 80s version… movies and shows are produced in different years all of the time, just because avatar 3 finished filming last year, it doesn’t mean anyone is going to claim it’s a 2023 movie. This series aired in 1980 making it an 80s version. Not that hard to comprehend.
@@zimvader25 Well since you want to be pedantic about it 1980 is still in the 70's until it ends. The next decade does not start till 1981 just like the millennium was not until 2001. So @samlanganke1262 was right. The more you know. 🤓
@@wolf310ii You are mistaking common parlance with actual time passage. There is no year 0 in the Gregorian calendar which means that the name of the year is applied to the 12 months preceding the completion of that year(in common parlance) vice the time after completion (which is when the actual year is counted). So technically 1980 is the one thousand nine hundred and seventy ninth year until Jan 1 1981 when the one thousand nine hundred and eightieth year is completed. Think of it like this, if I give you 19 dollars and 99 cents I have not given you 20 dollars till I hand over that last penny.
@@jimlamb7642 No, the fictional figur Jesus would have on 1.1.1980 its 1979 birthday (all the error and corretions to the julian calender aside), but its the 1980s year AD. The gregorian calender doesnt have a year 0, but the year 10AD already has a 0, its only the very first decade of the gregorian calender that has only 9 years. The 80s started when the counter switched from 7 to 8, not one year later.
Both are very good but as others have noted the 1980 version is much closer to the book. While the 2024 version deals much more with Toranaga and Mariko it doesn't explain Blackthorne's relationship with Toranaaga as well and why Toranaga saves him multiple times. In the book and 1980's version there are moments of both seriousness and levity between them that give more insight into their relationship. In this sense while Hiroyuke Sanada is an outstanding actor he's almost too grave and reserved rather than Mifune who could act both with gravitas but also come off as more human.
This was fun. I feel that Clavell wrote a great work of historical fiction essentially about the Tokugawa shogunate as understood through Western eyes. Regardless, I much prefer the 2024 version as it is more culturally accurate from a Japanese point of view and helps us to better learn about an interesting culture while we are entertained.
That is fine if you are after a Japanese perspective. Even though I am Asian, I prefer a film or TV show to be more faithful to the source material. Since I have read the novel, I prefer the 80s version because it was more faithful to the novel.
"This means that almost every scene between two people talking in Japanese is cut and replaced with English speakers." No, I don't think there is a single instance of this in the '80s series. The '80s series does indeed _cut_ a huge deal of the Japanese interaction, but in no case is it replaced with English speakers. The '80s miniseries is fairly faithful to the novel, but includes only about 50% of it. And no, Yabu's name was not shortened in the '80s version. You're treating the two series' as if the '24 version came first and the '80s second. And the interaction with the Jesuit in the prison was not padding in the '80s version - it was amputated in the '24 version. In the novel, Blackthorne spent a significant amount of time learning from that man. I found the '80s series to be fairly decent, but nothing more, when I first watched it. There were so many questions that went unanswered. Then I read the book, and the series improved greatly - now I was able to fill in all the blanks. I have started watching the '24 version, but nothing about it has hooked me yet. I'm averaging about an episode a month, I just don't feel invested in it.
Other differences: the 1980 series was filmed in Japan, while the new show was filmed in Canada. In the 1980 series Rodriguez was the very outspoken, extravagant character. In the 2024 series they made Yabu the outspoken, extravagant character. This change didn't fit well, it made Yabu a goofy, dumb character instead of an evil traitor.
Both were amazing. I felt the 80s was truer to Japanese mannerisms as well. Father Alvito in the 80s version had commanding presence. And I must say the women were hotter in the 80s version. But i do appreciate the story twist in modern version. Because I never felt like Toronaga was in much danger in original version. Where as I didn’t feel like Blackthorn was in much danger in modern one…or I didn’t care much because his personality sucked
I watched the 1980 version first and, likely as a result, prefer it although I enjoyed both. This likely exposes my preference for a story more centered around Blackthorne as the main protagonist, as was the case in the 1980 version, as opposed to Toranaga as was the case in the modern version. I believe that the less complicated relationship between Blackthorne and Mariko / Toranaga depicted in the 1980 version is more rewarding. I want Blackthorne and Mariko to be together and I want Blackthorne and Toranaga to be friends and have mutual respect, and that desire is rewarded more in the 1980 version. I also like the lack of sub-titles in the original as it does have the desired effect of helping the viewer feel out of place.
And if you read the novel, you will see how more faithful to the novel the 80s version was given that James Clavell was involved in the writing process and his goal was for the viewers to feel like Blackthorne did as a foreigner in feudal Japan.
For all its claims to be more authentic, the new version sure misses on several points. Why is it raining and dusk throughout the 2024 version? Why is the lady Toda's Naginata training in sgi? Why, if you are going to use computer graphics, don't you use them to make the landscape look less Nordic (Vikings)? Why are all the castle walls Uchi-Komi hagi, which were mostly use later in the Edo era? Why is the blade that Blackthorn is given by lady Fuji(ko) so obviously a bad tourist/souvenir sword, like those you can buy in Asakusa? Why do some of the zori used in the 2024 version have a rubber surface?
Why are you asking these questions under the video of some fan of the series who can hardly answer your questions instead of asking them to the producers or their public relations department?
@@patrickrada2923Maybe because he or she is addressing the claims of the fans of this new version? I am not sure but did the producers and marketing team claim that this version is more authentic than the 80s version that was more faithful to the novel given that James Clavell was part of the writing process?
Great comparison video! Much appreciated. I haven't yet watched 2024 Shogun, but there's nothing that will diminish my love for the 1980 Shogun. Who didn't fall in love with the actress Yoko Shimada who portrayed Mariko? The series also exposed me to the greatness that is Toshiro Mifune, and I became a fan since. I recently bought the 1980 Shogun DVD set and plan to watch it for the first time in 44 years before watching the new series.
In the 80s version I felt had a more "white savior" mentality I guess because it was closer to the source material. The modern version, because of its much larger Japanese producer, cast, and crew influence, made some cultural corrections bringing it closer to how it would really have been. In the modern version, Blackthorn was more a side character while in the 80s, he was the lens by which the audience navigated through the world of the Sengoku Jidai. In other words the European-centric perspective.
The premise of the book was the clash of cultures, and how the Japanese realised that Blackthorne had knowledge and skills that were useful, so they used him for their own ends. He was no 'white saviour' He was a resource.
What are you talking about? The novel, if you read it, has no white savior theme. In fact, Toranaga was using the knowledge of Blackthorne because the Portuguese left out so many details about the world beyond Japan, China and Korea. Blackthorne was at the mercy of the warlords. He was saving his own skin and was being used by Toranaga. The same goes with the 80s version because it was more faithful to the novel. And why wouldn't the 80s version unfold through the eyes of the white man? It was faithful to the novel, a historical fiction written by a white man. If you want a Japanese perspective then a Japanese could have written that novel but then it wouldn't be the same storyline like what happened in the new version. And the new version should not have used Shogun as its basis if the producers want to "correct' the inaccuracies (as expected given that it is a historical fiction, goodness). But then, it is easier to build from something already created than to start anew. The novel was James Clavell's so he should narrate it the way he wanted it. He should be allowed those so-called inaccuracies because he was writing fiction and he was not Japanese but a mere observer just like a Japanese would misinterpret some cultural traits of people in Wester countries. And yet, the novel actually showed Japan as being civilized despite the seppuku and killing of peasants at will by warlords and samurai. I am so tired of this CRT viewpoints even though I am an Asian female living in SE Asia and I know a lot about colonialism and imperialism because I live in a once colonized Asian country.
@@wolf310ii Completely agree. As greencloud states, it's mainly about the class of cultures, and how the Europeans in particular adapt. Indeed, one of the main facets of Blackthorne's character arc is how he slowly adapts to Japanese culture; this is probably no more obvious than when he visits his old crew in the Eta village.
the 80 version of course. It hasnt only shape my liife and my love of japanese things, but also helpt me to learn Japanese so much so that the female calligraphy teacher at the Ethnographic Museum in Stockholm, who only spoke Japanese, looked at me in surprise and exclaimed "you understand a little Japanese, don't you?`Nihongo wa sukoshi wakarimasu ne?'" Whereupon I nodded with a smile and replied "Hai". The 80s version is also closer to the novel i have read it eight times. I was 11 when it first was broadcasted in sweden and i loved it from the first minute.
Buddhist priests wear orange, so the Christian priests were kind of drafting off the "priest" part, so that they'd be easily recognized as religious men. The 1980 version was far closer to the novel, if you read it, including the sea chanty/hornpipe. So, so, so much was different from the novel in the 2024 version. It is a long book, but you really need to read it before comparing the two video versions. The '80 version's loyalty to the novel explains much of what you commented upon in this post.
The orange robe of the Jesuits did happen, but only in Japan and only for a few months, maybe only three or four. This happened because the Jesuits, after starting their work in Japan, needed people and daimyos to pay them respect like Buddhist monks who walked in saffron robes. However, after the arrival of the general of the order to Japan on another ship, this modification was immediately prohibited, and the Jesuits then wore their traditional, i.e. black robes.
Which SHOGUN reigns supreme?
Check out my SHOGUN Ending Explained here: ua-cam.com/video/0IZSypbYc6s/v-deo.html
Which Shogun reigns supreme? Well, read and loved the book, loved the 80s series and have mixed feeling about the new version. I like it but it is too far from the original material and missing some great moments. Granted, there are some great moments here too, but for me, the original still reigns supreme!
And by the way, all the scenes that differ were invented for the new series. The original stuck close to the book. As for Ishido, his fate was even worse in the book: passersby were invited to saw his head with a bamboo saw!
Difficult Judgement. Overall I would recommend the current one more as the old one probably looks a bit silly and too colorful for a modern audience but the old version has aspects in which it is vastly superior. Richard Chamberlain being a Star would be one of them.
@1:24 "some boiled" no, it was only 1.
I still prefer the original miniseries. I enjoy getting more Toranaga in this one, but the original characters all loomed so larger than life. I liked the fact that the new show was able to embellish and flesh out details and events, but do much of the romance and intrigue felt lost on the new series.
A narration would have been better, also, with the option to remove the subs and let the narrator summarize events, as in the original.
Overall, I give the new series a B+, and the original gets an A. It would get an A+ but it IS a dated miniseries, in parts.
The priests wore orange because in Japan, that was the color worn by Buddhist monks, and this was how western priests would show the commoners they were spiritual men, which gave them a social standing among the Japanese.
Yea orange would have been way too distracting in the modern version.
Only for a short period. Traditional priests came over and were like yo what u doing bro. Get dem blacks back on. Orange was short lived and wrong for the exact time period.... so computer told me.
Yes, that's true, but at the time the series takes place, the priests were back in their traditional clothing, so the new show is accurate.
@@EarJuice Actually, it was a specific individual of the senior Jesuits -- a man named Francisco Cabral -- showing up in Japan, and saying "nope, you're out of uniform." He reimposed the black cassocks.
Yeah. I found this VERY quickly in a Google search. No idea why the guy in the video couldn't.
People dont realise what a cultural event the 1980's version was. There were sections in newspapers with translations of multiple japanese words so western audiences could follow. Obviously was on Network TV so it could only be watched at that time and the scenes were timed to fit into advertisement breaks.
The version was a complete departure from what was presented to western audiences at that time. Nothing before had been so widely watched from an Asian cultural perspective.
I was a young 20 year old when it aired, loved it, read all the Clavell books after it and loved it more. About 20 years ago bought the DVD. Upon reviewing it, I thought while the story was good, the production values were poor and the music gratingly terrible and very early 80's. Never like Chamberlain as Blackthorne.
The 2024 version was told from all perspectives not from just Blackthorne's. Not a criticism of the 1980's version the choice to have the audience in the dark like Blackthorne was good and just added to the alien nature of the Japanese culture. 2024 was from three main character perspectives with many other characters fleshed out. Blackthorne was our gateway to the rules of etiquette, manners, culture and philosophy of 16th century Japan.
The production values, music, acting and writing of the 2024 outstripped almost anything I have seen in a series in years. It brought us along with the Japanese mindset of Toranaga to the point that an epic ending battle would have been a contradiction to the whole series and most of us have understood that.
Both series had their merits, however as an original watcher and lover of Shogun, I am so grateful they made the 2024 version. 1980's was great entertainment, 2024 was almost Shakespearian.
This. I watched it in the 80s and was totally captivated but rewatching it this year was painful due to reasons you mentioned. The production value of the 2024 version is 10/10.
I can recall people who watched the 80s series picking up bits of Japanese. Wakarimasu ka? Wakarimashita. It was weird watching the new series and still remembering some of the phrases.
@@todglenn2707 I agree. It was almost impossible NOT to learn some Japanese from the '80s version. But I don't know if it is just my hearing, but in the '24 version, were some pronounced differently? I wondered if that represented changes in Japanese pronunciation as a whole.
I agree with @geofmaloney though. The earlier series had some pretty awful acting at times, and that fucking music!
I thought the original Mirako was absolutely gorgeous, just a huge shame about her later 'career'.
@@davebox588 I couldn't follow the Japanese in the 2024 for the most part, whereas, like you said, in the 1980's versin, it was pretty impossible not to pick up some of the Japanese phrases.
@@keithyonick5023 I've read since that this later series uses Japanese as spoken at the time. That would explain it I think. Maybe just as Shakespearean English is different but understandable to modern English ears, so some Japanese words are the same while others were probably phrased or pronounced differently.
Maybe a shame not to continue the Japanese lessons, but this series isn't really for purely Western ears. Historical research globally has moved so far in the last forty years and in these more globalised times people are often more interested in their history.
The 80s version was closer to the source material in some ways, but the 2024 version was closer to actual Japanese culture. As much as he surely researched, Clavell made a lot of mistakes in that department, and the 80s version stuck to them. The new version corrected them while staying true to the spirit of the source material.
Focusing primarily on Toranaga rather than Blackthorn was a good decision as well. Following him from the start, the '24 version makes us feel like we're getting to know him, which is why the ending reveal of the true depth of his ambition is such a gut punch. We thought we knew him, but we knew nothing at all, which ties greatly into the motif of hiding one's "secret heart".
Hiroyuki Sanada was an inspired choice to cast as Toranaga. He brings as much gravitas and charisma as the late great Toshiro Mifune, but he also brings his incredible talent for portraying emotions so subtle you barely notice them, but also so genuine you never doubt their sincerity. His Toranaga is not merely defined by his cunning, ruthlessness and ambition. He comes off as a man who genuinely grieves the loss of lives he has to trade for victory, but is also so utterly convinced that his path is the only right one that he will not stray from it, no matter the cost. He is a much more complex character than both the novel and 80s version, which is why I prefer this iteration.
I know your not throwing shade at the 1980's version but I thought itt would be nice to point out that they didnt have internet in the 80's, atleast not like we do. The historical accuracy is because of time and more accessibility to historical documents.
Well said. His daughter even says it. He did much research but didn’t want to try to tell Japanese history. He fantasized about it and loved the culture he made his book and it a master piece. This 24 version was a Japanese point of view and Hiroyuki is a master of these types of Japanese film and knows the historical character very well. He’s done an amazing job acting and producing. Loved all versions.
@@matthewmob2860 yes she said he researched for two years before writing a word, but he always said he was to entertain first and was not an historian. Interesting character, PoW in the infamous Changi Prison in Singapore in WWII goes on to write a couple of books on Japan and quite a few on Asia itself.
@@geoffmaloney2717
More than telling history I think Clavell tried to capture something more philosophical. Almost all his novels are about the clash of cultures, and finding a bridge in between, as well as survival under difficult circumstances.
I think Clavell discovered more about human nature in those camps than any of us will ever know.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 so well put
The actor in the new Shogun who plays Toranaga is also an EXCELLENT actor. But the 80's version is one of the most memorable mini series I ever watched. FULL STOP.
I think that before you compare or criticise the 1980's production then first read the book.The 1980's version is so close to the book.He learns simple Japanese words while in the prison and while you laugh that he danced for Lord Toranaga and also acted the fool in order to stop Lord Ishido searching the caravan procession leaving Ishido's Castle (containing Toranaga disguised as a woman) all these elements are contained in the book.So as good as the 2024 series is,it lacks the true feel of the book.Almost every important event and character in the book is in the 1980's version.
Totally agree.
When I saw the first trailer for the new version and saw that Mariko is now some kind of killer samurai warrior, I realized it would be a joke.
The book (and all of Clavell's books) is excellent, and the 1980 film version respected that.
Absolutely 100%!!! I've read the novel about 20 times, and the 1980 version is much more faithful. I actually feel this version was disrespectful to the novel.
That was a real missing piece of this video.... The source material and which one was closer for each comparison.
Totally agree. The 2024 version is sometimes so far away from the book I only could shake my head. Best example the failed attempt of Blackthorn to commit sebukku.
I grew up with the 1980 version, and NO ONE can beat the charisma and genius of Toshiro Mifune!
Toshiro Mifune could intimidate an army with a glance.
@@Cryptonymicus He's definitely someone you would follow into Hell!
Richard Chambelain is difficult to replace in terms of charisma and presence, either.
The new actor definitively had the lower ground...
If your ever thinking on wearing a man bun, ask yourself are you Toshiro Mifune. If the answer is no. Don't wear a man bun.
@@DanCThorpe 🤣🤣🤣
Can't wait for the 2068 version to come out.
any day now.
Starring black lesbian Mariko who fells in love with gay Anjin with robotic arm.
@@ilkinsuleymanzad8252Anjin also needs to be enormously fat. Otherwise they/them would be excluding us fat people, and we’d be offended.
@ilkinsuleymanzad8252 and people committing seppuku because they misgender someone
@@ilkinsuleymanzad8252 It´s 2024, dude. Why is live and let live such a big problem for guys like you? Don´t make your social anxiety a problem of everybody else. Accept that other people have different characteristics and the right to express them like you do and everything is fine. Life is to short to get angry about stuff that you can´t change. 10 people 11 styles of life. Live and let live. Easy!
His name wasn't shortened to Yabu for the 80's miniseries....that's his name in the book.
yeah it's kinda hard to compare 2 things without reading the source material, you don't know which is doing things the correct way and which one is making the changes
Yessss! Finalmente. Also Nagakado is just Naga in the book, doesn’t die and is a most unpleasant young man to me. The episode with Jozen was … arghh
@@lucyshnyr5647 and "Ajiro" was "Anjiro"
@@MilkoInsano yeah, with analysis like this, you need to:
1. be aware of what really happened (and that is already a huge task by itself, since we interpret historical figures differently than we used to 40 years ago)
2. read the book, that was based on the real events, and keep in mind the "creative differences" towards reality
3. watch the 80s show, and keep in mind the differences toward 1 & 2
4. watch the 2024 show, and not lose your mind with everything going on :D
"Please I Invite you to come and watch the Sun Rise! with me!" and if you betray me again. "Off with your Head! haha
Toshiro Mifune was an amazing actor, and born for the role.
I'm someone who is old enough to have read the novel when it was a bestseller and saw the first miniseries when it actually aired. Both versions have their strengths and weaknesses but yes, the first one was more faithful to the novel. And perhaps most importantly to me, even though I appreciated the latter series, the first one was just more fun and entertaining. And the soundtrack by Maurice Jarre was bombastic and memorable, while the new soundtrack sounded synthetic and boring.
The soundtrack for the 80s series is so ridiculously over the top that it ruins it for me. There’s zero nuance because every action apparently requires some musical “feel this emotion” command
Bad guy enters the room? Stupid musical stinger
Person dies? Stupid music stinger
@@YodaOnABender The older one also had Chamberlain, a widely known actor.
Oh, I had no idea Maurice Jarre did the music. I must revisit the miniseries when I have time.
I'm with you 💯
It might be a good idea to read the book or listen to the audiobook. It's a very good book.
@AliAiham honestly I listened to it the first time on audible and it kept me hooked. I'm listening to it again right now.
Yes it is.. I've read the book a couple times and have listened to the audiobook a few times.
A couple times, that's awesome. I switched over to Tai pan to read, but I really liked Shogun the most. I liked how it almost matched up with a real shipwreck in Japan's history lol.@mikep760
I forget the year, after 1600 I think, but it's very close.
The 1980 version was much closer to the original book by James Clavell. The romance with Blackthorne and Mariko was a key part of both the book and the 1980 version. The new version does not really play that up too much. Also the new version, concentrates on Blackthorne losing and loyalty to Toranaga . That never happened in the 1980 version or the book. I liked the book the best and the 1980s version better than the current version but I’m still happy. They remade it in modern times.
Totally agree!
Shogun 2024 is a typically mediocre production with very nice effects.
100% agree. In the 2024 version the sun never shined. Each day scene was mostly overcast or foggy. The characters were mostly violent, ignorant, or manipulative.
@@57palmtree That's because the 2024 version was filmed in British Columbia, where it's always raining, while the 1980 version was filmed in Japan.
@@artm1973 Humph!
I watched the 80s version as a kid, and I remember my mother and brother and I being so struck by the marvelous story and culture, that a month later she presented us both with our very own daisho and did so during a small mini gempukku ceremony. I had those swords for years, but lost them to my great regret when we moved from Europe to America. They were only ceremonial, not battle-ready so tempered but not sharpened. I still remember the slide of the blade from the tsuba. A truly happy memory stirred by Chamberlain's and Mifune's wonderful performances. Domou Arigatou Gozai Masu, Tsepanji no Kuni.
It's quite the surprise to me that the 1980's version is truer to the book. The 2024 version makes more historical sense though.
But the point is the book is a novel. Not a non fiction book.
Explain please.
@@MarkFisherandJanisGillhamGrady well not really. The current version is BASED on the book. There were cultural mistakes and a very Westernised perspective. The Japanese characters were often extremely 2 dimensional.
I've been saying for years that a remake was due. It would have been an awful waste to stick to Clavel's interpretation of 16th C Japanese culture.
Background music aside, I really liked the '80s version, as well as the book. But this new version is a much better representation of the culture at that period (as far as I can tell).
@@colingoldie9173 Clavell developed a deep interest in Japan and the wider Asian world while a prisoner of war and from reading after that. He never was a historian in the modern sense and never claimed to be. He therefor made the central character an Englishman like himself acclimatising to Japanese culture. The events that he alludes to happened but aspects of the culture are necessarily missing.
In this later version you only have to look at the credits to see how much they have tried to get everything right. There are advisors on clothing, kimono gesture, social contract, just about all aspects of 16th C Japanese culture are covered by experts in the field. Clavell's daughter spent two years in research before even starting to write. Consider also that the story is now how Toronaga uses Mariko and Blackthorne to win him Shogunship. We have the benefit of subtitles so we see how Mariko almost always mistranslates to achieve her Lord's wishes (I noticed also that she translates literally in her mediation between the paid courtesan Kiko, and Blackthorn. I put this to one side to contemplate later, but is she putting herself in Kiko's place for their encounter later? Maybe she uses Kiko's skillful description of the Japanese art of lovemaking so he understands it clearly.).
The original book was groundbreaking and deserves its place as a masterpiece. You only really get at the subtleties if you reread and reread it. Most of that was missing in the original series, but jumps out in the later version.
@@davebox588
Remakes are almost never as good as the original. This was no exception. The acting was not as good.
Nagakado is in the 1980 version. He is simply known as Lord Naga, and is an aide to his father. When Blackthorne first meets him, Naga is somewhat stiff and unpleasant (Anjin calls him "an unpleasant little bugger"). When Anjin is made hatamoto, then given a fief/lordship, their relationship warms. In fact, Naga takes part in the ceremony where Anjin is given his fief.
In the 1980 version, Omi's relationship to Anjin is complicated. Despite the fact that they, very much, start on the wrong foot, it is clear that Omi finds value in Anjin. He prevents Anjin from committing suicide, and begrudgingly accepts Anjin as a fellow samurai/lord. Toranaga intentionally gives Anjin the contract for Omi's lover, knowing that Anjin would give the contract over to Omi. It is hinted that this bonded the two characters forever, which was Toranaga's intent. His most important vassal, and his most important admiral will have each others backs from then on.
exactly!
Not sure if it was mistakes or he merely chose to omit them from his story. What I found interesting is the immense contrast in the interpretations both these movies illustrate from the same book.
In the book, Omi accepts that he can never have Kiku and rides off, finding himself freed from his obsession with her and open to wider horizons. Quoting from the book: "I bless Toranaga for releasing me from servitude. Now nothing binds me. Neither father nor mother nor Kiku. Now I can be patient too. I'm twenty-one, I'm almost daimyo of Izu, and I've a world to conquer."
We know that William Adams (John Blackthorns real life counter part) became trusted advisor to Tokugawa Ieyasu (the real life counterpart of Yoshi Torenaga) on all things outside of Japan. Adam’s also supervised the construction of several European style ships in Japan for Ieyasu.
@@AnonymousGamer546 Indeed. There also was another European gentleman who also became samurai and hatamoto under Ieyasu. The 2024 series specifically states that Toranaga is the regent charged w/ foreign policy leadership. I wonder how Ieyasu reacted to learning the entire text of the Saragosa Treaty? 200 years of Tokugawa rule would tend to indicate that they managed the situation closely.
For me, the main difference between the two is that there is no longer Toshirō Mifune. He gave a certain authenticity and gravitas to the series that no one can duplicate.
1980s series has more colors - the sunlight, nature, dresses. Everything was in full color. 2024 version has this blue filter and lots of scenes are in the dark. I also think Toshiro Mifune's face who played shogun in the original version better translates ruthlessness of Toranaga. Mifune is a legend who played in almost 200 movies and series. He is a standard of how to depict samurai.
The Japanese actors are incredible in 80s version. The guy who is forced to commit seppuko in the pit hits it out of the park.
That's the biggest change I noticed too even in the previews that the color palette of the 2024 version is very dark while the 80's version is much brighter. So both the look and the feel of the two versions are much different with the 1980 version more of an adventure romance story will the 2024 more of a political intrigue.
@@rocketsjudokaI mean, it’d contrast the tone a bit if all the gritty stuff took place on a sunny afternoon lol.
If they could add colour grading back in the 80s then they would’ve
this is also what I hate about modern movies & series, they never bath themselves under scorching sun, even if they did they color grade it to dark cloudy. Why??
@@revolvency It depends on the movie or series you are watching. Colors establish mood and atmosphere, emphasizing narrative themes. You're watching a very serious movie; expect it to be darker.
The 80s Shogun has been a yearly watch for me for many years. I've never read the book but I always knew that the 80s adaptation was focussed on Blackthorne and less so with the politics of Torenaga...
Obviously I was already very fond of that version. I welcome the 2024 version for giving me all the context I was missing in the 80s version.
It's hard to choose between both series as they both give you something very unique...
For one, the 2024 version is filmed in British Columbia and unfortunatly... I feel like I can tell... where as the 80s version shows you actual japanese castles and countryside.
The 80s version is very streamlined as well as the complexities of the politics are not very present... and having a narrator does help to highlight important information.
I like both but the 80s version will always have a special place in my heart... I hope one day it is remastered.
Frankly, I don't know why Blackthorn is in Shogun 2024. He doesn't seem to serve any purpose in Shogun 2024 unless you also know what he's done in Shogun 1980. A great deal of Shogun 2024 seems to rely on knowing Shogun 1980.
@@Cryptonymicus And I thought he was a complete dick in the 2024 version.
@@Cryptonymicus I don't see how you can say that when it's being lauded by people who have never seen the '80s version.
'80s Blackthorn follows a very well trodden "hero" narrative (Man Called Horse", "Dances with Wolves" etc). A character foreign to a culture who goes through true hardship, a harsh trial of character, before ascending to the highest levels of that society. This later Blackthorn is less of that. He starts out brash and acquisitive before learning a series of lessons and becoming immersed in the culture. Notice the early Blackthorn speaking rapidly, often without thinking or the consequences of his actions. Then see his later self. Calmer, more measured.
His journey leads us into an understand of the way Japanese culture worked, and in some ways works today.
They complet each other in showing more of the book, but the 80th version is way closer to it in it's story, structure and following Blackthorne.
@@jdpc9391 i agree they’re great counterparts… now that the 2024 series is done… I’m sad that there’s no more of it 😢
"Flowers are only flowers because they fall"
I preferred the earlier version, as it was closer to the book. And Richard Chamberlain looked far more like the description of Blackthorne in the book. (Although Cosmo's voice was wonderful to listen to.) However, no miniseries, not even the 1980 version, could ever equal the vast pleasure of reading the book. (IMO, the difference between watching the miniseries and reading the book is like smelling the pizza baking in the oven, versus actually tasting it.)
BTW, I appreciated your comparisons. You did a fine job!
I’m with you there. The only thing I liked more in the 80s series than in the book is making Blackthorne blind instead of death after the explosion. That way, the burning of the ship with him slowly recovering sight is made more dramatic.
@@jp16k92 Yes! Me too! Temporarily blinding the Anjin-san made so much more sense in getting the story across. People forget that "reading" a story is experienced in a different part of the brain than "watching" a story. (When I finished reading the book, I felt a little lost for a few days. I missed being in Japan and following all of his adventures.)
I, on the other hand, disliked the voice of the new Blackthorne.
The book sparked my obsession with Japan. The art, the culture, the food, I could not get enough of it. It wasn't until nearly 30 years later that I could visit Japan, it was literally dream come true.
You are spot on
Shogun is one of my favorite novels. I’ve read it at least 3 times. The love story is the emotional core of the book. While I enjoyed the new miniseries, I thought it gutted that core, turning the romance into what felt more like a high school crush. I kind of wish they had made a 3-season series, with ~7 episodes per season, in order to expand upon the world while also retaining the Blackthorne-Mariko romance. Just my two cents.
Thank you for this informative comparison video. The 80s version had an edge of ‘mysterious Japan’; it was back when we (especially those of us involved in Japanese martial arts) were fascinated by that aspect. The modern version rightly assumes the audience knows a little more Japanese culture and treats us accordingly. The inclusion of classical Japanese language was a brilliant idea and had me reaching for my dusty classical Japanese language book. The one thing I struggled with was the dark, grey, wet appearance to the modern version. It was gloomy, dour and I found it oppressive. It seems to be ubiquitous and fashionable in modern filming. This will date Shōgun 24 for future viewers just as the over saturated colours of 80s Shōgun helps to date it (and those even earlier ‘green tinted 60s films’). Both versions have their charms, the 80s version has a few cringey moments too. I liked the visual warmth of the original and the cultural authenticity of the new version. I look forward to the Blu-Ray of Shōgun ‘24 coming out with all it’s extras and will likely be watching that more than the original.
They filmed in Vancouver for the modern version which has a lot of rainfall.
The original was actually shot in Japan, the new one is very dark and at times looks like it was shot on a soundstage with the volume
The new one was mostly filmed in Canada.
They used the scenery...of Canada...
Nah, the places they picked in Canada were perfect, they can serve as Japan. You say it looks "very dark"... have you been to Japan? I've been to Nagoya, a few years ago... the countryside can be preeeetty dark.
@@SCharlesDennicon lol, what a strange thing to say. Japan isn't darker than other places. It's not Greenland/Alaska/Iceland.
Vancouver shoot apparently
Both the 1980 series and the 2024 series share the same problem; time, or the lack thereof.
Clavell's story needs more episodes than what it's given.
it really didn't mini series is good as it is, there was no downtime in the 24 Shogun, it had u engaged whole time
Totally agree in terms of time. That's a huge problem. Personally I would have liked that they would tell the Story of the Tokugawa Ieyasu, then we would have material for several seasons. 😍 The "Shogun" story is just too short.
@@khal7702 Shogun 2024 didn't have me engaged the whole time because really I didn't find any of the characters to be at all appealing.
I agree, it should have been at least 15 episodes, that ending is just so fast.
They had time in the modern one, but they wasted it on adding fluff.
The 1980's version is vastly superior to the 2024 version... the new version is just a popcorn version of the real story with lots of pretty visual effects and lots of women empowerment thrown in... something totally impossible in a middle age feudal Japan.
Also inferiors contradicting and disobeying their superiors orders is rampant in the 2024 version... an offense punishable by death at the time.
Orange on the Priests is explained in the book.
They wear Orange to match the Orange robes of Buddhist monks.
They were approprating the religious wear of the Japanese
Should have used orange
@@steveyi2859 No they shouldn't. It was explained in the book, but the book was wrong. Or off anyway. They did use orange early one, but switched back to black by 1600
Japanese Monks don't usually wear orange, but mostly black unlike Chinese and Thais.
Appropriating it? Assimilating to it, I'd say -- and that was apparently how it was seen by Rome, which promptly put a stop to it.
@@coltfan1726 The book wasn't wrong. It was a book of historical fiction, mirroring but not necessarily portraying true events. Edo was called Yedo in the novel. Anjiro, from the novel was Ajiro in the 2024 version. The novel was its own world so it need not be completely historically accurate. If you're writing a history then do so and forget about the novel.
I think that both series are very good. The 80's version probably had more charm and spent more time on introducing Japan's history and customs to the audience. I guess that today's audience have a better knowledge of ancient Japan in general; making some information unneccessary, but it was still a very nice touch.
One thing I disliked about the new Shogun was the colour palette...or lack thereof. Everything was always very grey. I guess there is no sunny weather in Japan anymore.
The 80's Shogun was actually shot in Japan, by the way.
Yes thank you for saying that! Seems like most movies made today are dark and dreary. I loved the bright beautiful colors in the 80's version and the funny light moments!
Of course 1980. It was perfect. The actors playing the main roles were outstanding. Who can replace Toshiro Mifune ? Nobody.
I got bored of the 2024 version but have watched 80s version about 10 times
I've seen the 80's version twice. I really enjoyed it. I've just finished the 2024 one and it's absolutely outstanding. Yes it does seem a little slow halfway through but the final episodes are incredible. You should try again my friend 🥰
No, the new ending doesn't say that war is averted, it says that Toranaga has a chance at winning at Sekigahara, because the Heir's troops will not join the battle. Toranaga says five armies WILL meet at Sekigahara, but Lady Ochiba will make sure the Heir's army will not support Ishido there. He also says that this will cause the other leaders to turn against Ishido. Buthat will only happen there, on the battlefield, so that Ishido will have no chance to do something about it. This mirrors Yodo-dono not deploying Hideyori's troops and thus not formally supporting Ishida, leading to him having a shaky authority and several daimyos switching sides over the course of the Battle of Sekigahara.
For it's time, the 1980 version is/was an epic and still reigns as one of the greatest series of all time IMO. The 1980 version followed the book religiously (with a few notable exceptions) while the 2024 version takes a lot of liberties with the story, but overall ends up in the same place. Since this is a work of fiction based on historical events, poetic license is acceptable in the re-telling while overall staying true to historical events. You can't compare the production values since technology has come so far in the intervening 44 years, but for it's time, the 1980 version was outstanding. Frankly I'm not so upset that the 2024 version wasn't a bespoke retelling of the 1980 version and had a uniqueness to the story and the characters that was different from the 1980 version. The main difference being the 1980 version told the story from Blackthorn's point of view, while the 2024 series told the story from the Japanese point of view. I'm a fan of both! To this day (I'm in my late 60's), Shogun is still one of the best books I've ever read as is most of Clavell's works. It's outstanding to watch this epic novel come to life using current technology.
So true. Fucking awful background music aside, the '80s version was a complete departure from most storytelling at the time. It misses most of the subtlety in the book, but still a good effort.
In a nutshell, the '80s version is the story of Blackthorn helping Toronaga become Shogun. The '24 version is how Toronaga uses Blackthorn as one of his hawks to attain the same position.
PS. that other Clavell film, Tai-Pan, needs remaking as well. The book is fascinating, while Australian Dan Brown affecting a Scottish accent for the film is laughable. Very little sense of place either.
If I can say James Clavell's daughter was a part of the script in the show.
It will be good if in that energy Michaela Clavell can make a series about King Rat, Tai Pan or Gai Jin like a continue to the saga... until then I really loved the new adaptation of Shogun even if with in compare the 80's version was just legendary.
But yeah I really hope this TV show get more viewers and hopefully it will get the needed appreciation from the audience.
@@cybele_m Great observations IMO, and I agree.
The book tells a lot more about each major character's inner thoughts and motivations, and I believe the '24 version is better at revealing those.
Also you'll recall how right at the beginning of that later version that Toronaga is out hawking and describes how his hawk (presumably a peregrine) comes out of the Sun so the prey doesn't know it's there until it strikes. That's a perfect metaphor for Mariko, who is polite, subservant and contained until the moment she appears out of nowhere and her actions result in the disintegration of the Council of Regents who up to that point had been in broad agreement.
In the book and '24 version it's clear that Mariko dies by her own actions (voluntarily standing in front of the door) and thus suffers a samurai death. That event is not so clear in the '80s version where it appears almost an accident that she's there.
Not dissing the '80s version at all. I have watched it countless times over the years, but it was a series of its time and it would have been disappointing if the latest version hadn't done a better job.
@@davebox588finally someone who acknowledges how awful the music is for the 80s version. I saw two clips and it almost put my off watching the show altogether
@@YodaOnABender I KNOW, RIGHT! Jeez, I know this was forty years ago, but honestly: WTaF!
And composed by Jean-Michel's Dad? No wonder they were estranged.
If you read the book you will see that the movie from the 80s is hundred % more accurate to the book.
That's why I really appreciate the one from the 80s more but I do appreciate the new one as well.
But if I have to chose 1, the one from the 80s is much better because actually almost the whole story is focused on Blackthorn and Mariko not like the new adaptation in Ishido, Lady Ochiba and Toranaga.
And that's how it is in the book as well.
Oh and also I really don't understand how in the 80's they did the job and for 9 hours they putted the whole story better and even some small details was fact even with the long music scenes typical for the 80's period.
And in the new one they missed so much of the details about the story... I appreciate the details about the costumes and the Japanese culture but like they missed the details about the actual story... Like example I really missed the story about Kiku in the last when Toranaga give her like consort to Blackthorn and he give his documents to Omi...and actually if you do the math 10x60 mins is even more time than the previous one... but like every episode almost 2-3 mins are only for script... :D and okay I appreciate Hiruyuki Sanada version but he put too much time in the episodes about the actual Japanese culture like food scenes etc. instead of some details that was very important from the actual story from the book... what a waste...that's why the one from the 80's is much much better...
But still for 2024 the new one is 10/10 for me.
They turned into a feminist story. It's boring.
They kept some scenes from the book but rushed them to the point of completelly missing their significance. Like Omi pissing on Blacthorne - in the book Blacthorne submits to humiliation to save his men, in 2024 he is physically subdued.
because James Clavell, the author of the historical fiction was part of the writing process in the original version so he would know which scenes should be included in the miniseries to capture the novel's essence.
I also prefer the 80s version because I am after a faithful adaptation of the novel which I truly liked as a teen and am not after historical accuracies that I can learn in a documentary or a history book.
Yes, 80's closer to the book but new version closer to historical record.
Looks like the 80s version was more true to the book.
But this new version is truly epic!
I vote for the original. I like the characters and story line better. The new Mariko, while attractive, is rather cold.
Mariko 2024 strikes me as a modern woman with a chip on her shoulder and when the actress is speaking English she sounds like an American. Not very convincing.
@@Cryptonymicus I enjoyed 2024 Mariko overall because the actress is gorgeous, talented, and the series is sensational, but the lack of Japanese accent when she speaks English is an issue for me too, as are her looks, because her beauty isn't stereotypically japanese. Unlike the actress who plays Fuji, for example. Boy I so wish we had more of her.
yes, she does not have the warmth and emotion of the original Mariko. Thanks for the observation.
Buntaro describes her as icy in the books though. It was a major sticking point of why their relationship was so strained after he summoned her back from exile - she was cold to him and had clearly lost respect for him and only served him because she was duty-bound by Toranaga. Cold and duty-bound is what she was *supposed* to be towards Anjin as well, not some warm, Polly-Anna romantic love story. She even makes it a point to say many times in the books that "love" is a Christian word and Japanese relationships are instead steeped in duty and honor. In fact in the book after the earthquake, she states to Anjin that Patience is one of the pillars of strength and denying affection is one of the main tenants of Patience. In the book, it's pretty well established she slept with Anjin mostly out of duty to Toranaga because she assumed he would ask her about his physical proportions. And she was correct, he did ask her that. Her personal curiosity about him as a pillower was pretty clearly tangential in the books. Indeed, she denied the affair immediately afterwards even directly to Anjin, acting callously towards him the entire time, and claiming it was one of Fujiko's maids and he was too drunk to remember. Only later did she demurely admit to it with Anjin, but under extreme caution that her life was at risk by doing so. The 2024 version portrayed her quite accurately to the character established in the book, and she serves the narrative well as a cultural ambassador contrasting Anjin's emotional, impulsive, and reactionary outbursts.
She is cold
Richard Chamberlain all but demanded the part of Anjin in the 1980 series, and was miss cast, looking as much like a rugged seaman as Leonardo DiCaprio! But the star of the 80s series was Toshiro Mifune, an actor who brought the Samurai to life in many Kurosawa films over the years
Yep. I totally agree with your assessment of Richard Chamberlain!
The 1980 version adheres more closely to Clavell's book which I like because I have read the book many times. The Anjin san seppuku scene is very significant and occurs early on, because it happens when Anjin finally realizes that he must think and act Japanese if he is going to survive. In the 1980 version, Yabu, Omi and Mariko give his effort great seriousness which it merits. The 1980 version shows the character development of Anjin into living like a Japanese early on whereas the 2024 version continues to portray Blackthorne as sort of a bumbling white guy throughout until the last episode. Also, in the 1980 version the love story of Anjin and Mariko is given much more time and development with Mariko instructing Anjin in Buddhist philosophy and Japanese culture. The 2024 version is riveting in its portrayal of Japanese culture. However, as I like the book so much, the many small changes to Clavell's story are a little annoying to me. I wish the 2024 version had done two seasons and given the details of Blackthorne's character development and the love story more time.
I havent read the book yet, so I was watching the 2024 series sort of like it was a standalone thing. Caring not about the show’s fidelity with the book but rather its narrative quality, I think Blackthorn committing seppuku at such an early stage of his development would not have made sense. The ultimate end-point of his development was to embrace Japanese culture, because he will never be going back to England. Blackthorn throughout the show demonstrated slow integration, starting off with the little things like minding his cleanliness and starting to adhere to Japanese rituals and practices. Then he started to understand the deeper culture of the Japanese people, why they’re so detail-minded and distant. Then he started to speak the language… idk where you saw him being just a “bumbling white dude”. Though luck was on his side, he still had to do a lot of things that took a lot of grit, tenacity, insight and some cunning to maneuver his way thru Japan’s weird bureaucracy, assimilation being one of them. But Sepuku has always been at the extreme end of Japanese culture, and at the beginning Blackthorn could not even accept that he may die in Japanese lands. It makes sense that only when Blackthorn is finally able to accept his fate in the Japans, he was willing to sacrifice his life for the village and die in a country that he once vowed to leave. It makes less sense if he was willing to do that mid-show, when he’s just barely able to understand why japanese people were so very willing to take their own lives away.
I agree with you completely. Blackthorn was almost an afterthought in this new version.
@@khylaldana2757 , if you read the book, you will understand that the changes in Blackthorne took place over the first 6 months as he was learning the language and the way of life around him.
I agree 100000%
Yes, yes and yes. A brilliant comment!
Personally I thought Blackthorne's character in the 2024 version seemed much less significant than the 1980's where it was almost given centre stage. The scene in the 80's version where Blackthorne gives Kiku's contract to Omi was just fabulous. I would love to know what Omi says to him, but of course no subs. Presumably something along the lines of 'a debt I can never repay....'
1980 Omi rocked! Both Yabu versions were excellent.
Considering the guy pissed on Blackthorne's back, it was quite generous of him.
In the book Blackthorne didn't give her to Omi, Toranaga had big plans for Kiku and Blackthorne.
@@artm1973 It's been so long since I read the book, I didn't remember that. Thanks for the heads up.
@@johnsteed9083 I thought it was a great moment in the miniseries though.
Personally, I prefer the 1980s version (granted I did watch it first). I don’t want to dismiss the achievements of the modern adaptation, I think it’s great that we get to see the Japanese characters’ side of the story that we didn’t get to see in the original, but I think they diminished the European characters too much. In a perfect world all the factions would get equal screen time. Plus, I’m at a point in my life where I’m tired of dark, bleak movies and TV shows, I see it everywhere-I miss the levity and bombastic nature of older cinema.
The 1980s miniseries was actually unsuccessful in Japan because audiences found it too dark and grotesque (with elements of condescension towards their culture.) But yes, I get what you mean (although at age 25, I'll admit I have more stomach for darkness, I just want it to be in service of something besides "Game of Thrones did it!") But 2024 makes a lot of changes for the negative- why change Blackthorne meeting his old crew and realizing he's on a different path to "Blackthorne beats up his drunk friend in an alley fight"?
@@vishaansingh1019 Maybe because of the butchered version of just two hours, right? So we will never know if they will warm up to the longer miniseries.
Someone sad that the dark cinematography must be to hide CGI effects. I never thought of that but I believe it is one of the factors.
Yabu's name was not shortened in the 80s show. It was lengthened in the newer show. His name was Yabu in the novel.
Names in the 2024 version were changed from the book because in the Sengoku period Japanese names were not like those in the book.
@@thaaaatplace and it is fine if the novel has inaccuracies since it is a historical fiction.
It's too much for me to escape the nostalgia feels of the 1980 version. It just hit me at the perfect time in my life and I'll always love it. I did enjoy the 2024 a great deal though and it would still be up there among my favorite miniseries
3:50 Many katholic priests wore orange back then, because their japanese counterparts (mostly buddhists) also wore orange. Makers of the new Shogun Series choose to change that because they didn't wanna ruin the color grading and dark look they created.
The first one is almost 100% faithful to the novel, which I think is a good thing since I'm not sold on the changes made in the 2024 version. The 2024 version is a much better production, though. Top costume design, scenography, photography and acting, while the 1980 version was more of what you would expect from a TV production in those days,
With respect to Hiroyuki Sanada, NO ONE can come close to Toshiro Mifune’s charisma and stature-even without translation. In the 2024, the photography was beautiful, the women perfectly shot but it was Tadanobu Asano that stole every scene he appeared in.
I'm only halfway through the 2024 one. I loved the 1980 and loved the book. So far, I miss the inner politics of the Japanese Catholic priests. I miss a little of the romance. I think Mariko's character is too cold and bitter - she doesn't hid her feelings at all. I miss the interesting and complex relationship between Omi and Anjin and how hit evolves. The scene with the "unless I win" line I thought was much better in 1980 - it was about rebelling against your liege lord, a much more subtle question, steeped in honor and honesty and a question that is weighing heavily on Toranaga's as he contemplates treason and is surrounded my betrayal. Anjin responds to the accusation of rebellion that there were mitigating circumstances. Toranaga says there are never mitigating circumstances in rebellion. Anjin wryly smiles and replies, "unless you win", capturing Toranaga's heart. That is so much more rich than 2024's "why fight a battle hopeless battle". I also missed the extended conversations about the pheasant with Fuji, and the aftermath of the execution. I also think that Anjin's and Rodrigues' relationship is a lot more fun and developed in 1980. I thought the "would you prefer a boy" scene in 1980 was a lot better - it showed the cultural differences a lot. (Though even there, I missed the conversation about a "duck" from the book - too funny.)
What I like of 2024? It is less campy. In 1980, I thought the lack of subtitles allowed us to feel Anjin's isolation, but having them in 2024 allows us to get more of the story from the Japanese perspective. I like that they've given the female characters more depth. I like that they've cut out some of the suicide (in the book, it seems like every other page someone was committing suicide - OK, author, we get the point). I like that they've moved a little focus from Anjin - he's not the solver of every problem. I miss the almost regal bearing of Richard Chamberlin - but maybe that's a good thing as it gets us away from the "white man comes and becomes the best of them" trope.
I don't know, watch them both. And then read the book - it's great.
Read all his books, 80 version closer to book however Iike the changes in today s depiction. Shogun is a great love story and culture story, Muriko is the true Samurai in both renditions
Well they didn’t “omit” the backstory with Ochiba and Mariko. It was invented for the ‘24 version since they decided to elevate Mariko’s character and make Blackthorne a supporting character in his own story
Agreed. What both versions didn't do was Ochiba's "disdain," for Toranaga because she was afraid he may have seen her pillowing a peasant who looked like The Taiko. She wanted to sire the son he wanted after the death of his first born. In truth Ochiba secretly desired Toranaga. Mariko never had a friendship back story with Ochiba nor were they acrimonious. In fact Ochiba was only slightly jealous of Mariko's talent as a poetess.
Perhaps, I dont remember very well, but what they did omit was that Mariko was the daugher of Akechi Jinsai, which IS in the book
I watched the 1980’s version after reading the book and again before I watched the current one.
The biggest difference was the 1980’s was much more a love story with the current one more of a subtle inspection of the Japanese culture.
@@hueyslick291 Yeah, they definitely cranked up the romance for the '80 version. I think they turned it down so much for the '24 version that it almost doesn't make sense for Blackthorne to react as he does to her death.
They also changed the relationships. While the 24 version makes Kuroda (who was killed by Mariko's father) the father of Ochiba the historical Kuroda, being Oda Nobunaga, was not (if I remember correctly he was an uncle).
10:28Tominaga is behind the burning in both versions. He admits this in 2024 when he seconds Yabu's seppuku.
The difference being that in the new version, he _allows_ it rather than being the originator of the idea.
@@atticstattic Isn't it implied that he was the one who did it in the 2024 version as well?
@@talisa222
No, I think Mariko's deal with the Catholics for Blackthorne's life fit into his plans, so he allowed it to happen.
In the mini-series, Blackthorn's men warmly receive him when they meet again, though he's disgusted by them (only shown when he takes off his kimono afterwards and demands it be burned as it's bug infested). However, they do join him help fix the Erasmus before he heads to Osaka again (iirc).
Why Blackthorn's crew is in Shogun 2024 remains a mystery to me. You could cut them out and who would notice?
@@Cryptonymicus You could even cut out Blackthorne and it wouldnt make much difference
The 1980 version was closer to the book, the story was centered on Blackthorne, as it was on the book. The 2024 version was adapted to be more Japanese centered. It makes sense to me, since Toranaga on the 2024 is portrayed by Hiroyuki Sanada, thus as a Japanese, he decided to flesh out the Japanese characters more and changes that he felt were closer to the true story of Tokugawa Ieyasu, the real man who united Japan. I like them both. The 2024 cut significantly the interaction between Blackthorne and his crew, as well with Father Alvito and Vasco Rodrigues, there were nice ancillary stories both on the book and the 80's series, and gave more importance to the Black Ship (which did exist). And indeed on the book the character was called Kasigi Yabu, not Kashigi Yabushide. In the 80's version and the book the love story between Mariko and Blackthorne is developed further and both Buntaro and Toranaga suspected about it, a fact confirmed when Mariko bequeath the money for Blackthorne to build a new ship. In the end, artists can adapt source materials according to their sensibilities, the 80's version was American produced, the 2024 version have Japanese producers, more familiar with the real story of the Sengoku period than many western audiences, thus, having the series seen more through the Japanese point of view was interesting and refreshing to me. It would have made no sense whatsoever to recreate the 80's series frame by frame on the 2024 version with new actors.
Well said. The source material is rich enough for multiple interpretations.
It's fine with me since we get to watch the same story from different perspectives.
In the 1980 version…Blackthorn explains to Mariko about what life was like in England…he tells her about his wife and two children back in England
Of course I read the book and watched the original series several times.
I have just finished the new series and found it to be very good by today's standards. Both versions have pros and cons, as mentioned in many comments.
For me, Hiroyuki Sanada as Toranaga is very well done, although very different from the 1980 version.
But if you compare Hiroto Kanai as Kashigi Omi in the 2024 version with the 1980 portrayal (Yûki Meguro), Yûki Meguro appears much more masculine.
But what happend with Mariko?
The actress Anna Sawai has a very cool, modern appearance, almost arrogant.
Given her past, Mariko would to have a differently character, like women in feudal Japan in general.
They tried to write a strong female role and didn't realize what the real strength of the real Mariko from the book was.
Yoko Shimeda portrayed this perfectly in the 1980 series. Gentle on the outside but tough on the inside. This gave the dialogs with Anjin interesting moments.
For the role of Mariko, I would have preferred Fumi Nikaidô (Ochiba No Kata).
Anna Sawai Anna Sawai with her bossy Style would have been the bette fit for the Role from Ochiba No Kata.
However, I also wonder why I never saw her as a Japanese?
They made the modern version more similar to the REAL story. Not the book, but the story of William Adams and Tokugawa Ieyasu
"The same guy who played Gimli" has a name, you know. Good grief dude.
Yes, the actor playing Rodriquez/Gimli is called John Rhys-Davies.
However, I also had to google the name because I didn't remember it.
Either the video creator no longer knew the name and was too lazy to google it, or he assumed that viewers wouldn't be able to relate to the actor's name, but they would be able to relate to the name of the dwarf from Lord of the Rings.
Too right. He should be known as "the same guy who says Indy all the time".
@@MaquiladoraIII
😉
I like the actor for John much better in the 80's version, but in general the '24 version is much more sophisticated and subtle. But Toshiro Mifune is a force to be reckoned with.
1980s version has Toshiro Mifune and Orson Welles.
Damned be everything else
If I remember correctly, in real life priests wore black at first but were not taken seriously by locals so Francis Xavier had them wear orange like buddhist monks.
I suppose that I'll never get the version of Shogun that I have always wanted. The 80s version was very close to the novel. It focused more on the Anjin/Mariko relationship and omitted most of the intrigue with the Japanese characters. The producers of the 80s version didn't think that the audience would be interested enough or that there would be budget enough to make a 22 hour miniseries. Which is what they figured would be the length of the story if they did the entire novel. In the book, Yabu was Yabu. Not Yabushige. The cannon scene didn't happen. Toranaga's son didn't die. Lady Ochiba and Mariko did not have a childhood back story. Yedo stood in for Edo, and Anjiro was not Ajiro.
While the new version was interesting, I felt that the Blackthorne character was made to be kind of goofy and did not adapt well to his situation as he did in the novel. Of course, the new adaptation is really only loosely connected to the novel. It is quite a different story in many ways which is fine as many films take liberties with original material. The producers of the 80s version had to stick closely to the novel as it had only been five years since it's release and it had huge popularity.
My ideal version of Shogun would be the 22 hour epic that will never be made. I guess it's time to read the book again.
Nothing goofy about Richard Chamberlain's dancing, of course.
Sake, neh?
@@stephenderry9488 Also an Englishman with an American accent...
@@Lukesmithbrfcwell their first choice was Sean Connery, he was interested but wouldn’t do regular television
@@LukesmithbrfcWell they were all speaking Portuguese so what does that matter
The 1980's version followed the book much closer. Not sure how this reviewer missed that Toranaga destroyed Blackthorne's ship as he actually says it. Blackthorne thinks it was Mariko, but although she did manage to keep him alive, she did not burn the ship.
Really enjoying all the differences you found. Thank you for putting them all together.
I enjoyed the small homages to the 80’s version, in the 2024.
The drop of water on the leaf at the tea house in the 2024 version, mirrors Mariko’s tear in the 80’s version.
Toranaga’s line about her being a bonfire, a callback to her funeral in the 80’s.
Not sure if there were others.
Look at Blackthorne's kimono in the new version. The colors are different but otherwise, it the same as the white and brown kimono worn by Chamberlain in the promo pics.
Liked 80s better little of everything better understood 2024 too much talking dark n hard to follow but ok
It should be noted that one of the biggest reasons there are so many differences is that the current treatment strays much more from the novel than the 1980 version, it would be interesting to marry this video with a comparison of both to the novel. The filming aspect difference is right on, the 1980 version has not-so-appropriate music and has the distinct feel of a TV mini-series, whereas the current version is much more cinematic. One glaring difference not mentioned (not related to the story) is that the previous version was filmed in Japan but the current one was filmed in Canada - so many trees in the village it seemed like everyone was camping out, I think that affected my opinion of the current series (I have been to Japan many times, the trees in the series are very different). For the record, I first read the book when it was released and since read it many times. I also watched the 1980 series when it came out and later bought the DVD set. The current version really hit the mark on showing the culture, sets, and costumes but the 1980 series came close. Blackthorn is shown in the current series as fairly rough and barbarian like and Mariko much more brooding and her lack of Japanese accented English did not feel right. The Portuguese presence in the current version strays far from the novel and the 1980 version, they are almost nonexistent.
I like the 1980 version better, but that's because I saw it first. However, I have read the book multiple times and I can say unequivocally that the 1980 Shogun is basically the book on film. I dislike the changes made to the book by the 2024 version, such as when Blackthorne tries to commit seppuku. It made far more sense in the 1980 version because after he's stopped he realizes he has started a new life. I may get flack for this, but Yoko Shimada was so, so beautiful and *deep* and the new actress just plays it like she's eaten some bad shrimp. The names were, it seems, made to fit the time period, thus Fujiko is 'Fuji' in the 2024 version. And as far as I can remember, there IS no backstory between Mariko and Lady Ochiba in the book either. One thing that's made clear in the book, but in neither version, is that Ochiba hates Toranaga because she thinks he knows something no one else does. She thinks he knows that the Heir (son of the Taiko) is actually the son of a peasant that Ochiba ran into and used as a sperm donor (no DNA in 1600!!). And people keep saying, oh, the modern version looks more like Japan. WHAT? The 1980 version WAS ACTUALLY FILMED IN JAPAN. THAT IS REALLY JAPAN in the 1980 version. I liked Blackthorne's outfits better in the 1980 version too. In the 2024 version he looks like he's wearing a bathrobe the whole time. Also, Naga survives the 1980 mini-series (and also survived in the book). And no one can play mystery and weirdness like Damien Thomas (Father Alvito) could. He was awesome.
@8:57 nagakado's death gave Toranaga time to plot after the betrayal. how is he insignificant to the story?
the 1980's version is definitely much more of a fun watch, the characters get to have happy moments in that version. the modern one is very gritty and cinematic with much more depth to the characters
Less depth, in my opinion - except for Hiroyuki Sanada. I think I prefer his more nuanced performance than Toshiro Mifune. I also preferred Ishido and Yabu in this version. But Anna Sawai was totally one note as Mariko. She cannot compare to the radiant Yuki Shimada. But I did not like Omi, Kiku, Fujiko, Ochiba, Father Alvito, Rodriguez. There was just an unrelenting, dismal tone. It varied way too much from the original novel.
Fun fact: when shogun was originally broadcast (yes, I saw it them) - there was no Orson Well's narration and one of the reason for no subtitles was expense (at least that is what TV Guide said). On a later rebroadcast - the narration was added.
I remember this as well.
12:03 The Buddhist priests wore orange and the Catholic Jesuits wanted to be seen as holy men. So they adopted the color. Latter a new head of the order in Japan made them convert back to black.
The 80's version is a typical representation of the quirky Japan created by Americans staffs.
The new version has decent details due to the involvement of many Japanese staffs in its production.
Two huge differences come to mind for me. The 1980s version seems to always be shot in bright light, whereas the modern version makes much more use of darkness and shadows. Also, in the 1980s version, everyone looks relatively clean, whereas in the modern version the characters look more realistic, covered at times with sweat, blood, and dirt.
The '80s version was stunning! More pageantry, more character development, more historical context with respect to the geopolitics of the 1600s. The quality of the characters was levels higher. John Rhys-Davies as Vasco Rodriquez stole every scene he was in, the guy how played Father Alvito, had more screen presence and dignity. And, Toshiro Mifune as Lord Toranaga is priceless. The 2024 version was dark and brooding. The courtesans in the 2024 version were depicted as scrawny, scheming, manipulating females one level above rats. While in the book and 80's versions there shown as cultured beautiful women with intelligence. Kiko even rushes to Omi's wife when she arrives home to tell her what has transpired and to assure her Omi is well. The 2024 version is definitely a step down from the book and '80s miniseries.
Sweat and dirt doesn't necessarily make it more realistic. Cleanliness was a big deal back then. The notion that people didn't really wash in the past is a bit of a myth. Sure, the French didn't (jk), but other people surely did.
@@lsamoasome people think you can only clean yourself with a shower. No showers then: dirty stinky people. Also no washing machines...
@@lsamoa Blackthorne's crisp white shirt seemed to defy physics even after being kept in a stinking pit for days.
As to washing, both both the '80s and '24 Blackthorns complain about washing twice in a week for fear of the flux.
Let's be clear, initially even by rough camping standards, Blackthorn would have stunk.
The funny things about 24 version is that they purposely choose to do things either early in the morning, late afternoon, at sunset, or at night...which did not make sense. I assume people in the past would utilize daylight as much as they could....like who the hell would do seppuku at sunset? That would be tedious to do the cleaning later.
So a friend of mine who is a native Japanese speaker said that the Japanese spoken on Shogun 2024 is that of the period and not easy to understand as a modern Japanese speaker. Don't think Elizabethan English vs Modern. Think Chaucer vs modern.
That's extraordinary attention to detail
They diminished Omi sooo much in the 2024 version. This incarnation of Omi shows him as looking a little younger, a little smaller, and a lot less authoritative and intimidating as the 80s version of the same character.
Meanwhile his machinattions and own troubles are shown much better. Just wish they would have left him getting Kiku's contract from Blackthorne.
@@Fred_L. I suppose so. But the casting direction is still an odd one. After all, he is supposed to be like some sort of head samurai. To be kind of puny is a bit belittling considering his position of authority.
It’s too bad that the narrator or the script writer of this video didn’t actually read the book.
I feel that the 80s version was superior because it actually stuck to the book. The modern version was beautiful with its production values., however, it wasn’t the book and maybe they could’ve found another title. Some of the questions that the narrator had were answered in the book. Anyway, I recommend reading the book. It’s a great read and I believe you would thoroughly enjoy it.
That is why this youtuber should read the novel first before making this video. And fans of the new version should read to the novel and if they are not avid readers to listen to the audio book. The only edge of the new version is the production values. But it is 2024 so they should do better in terms of production but the 80s version was actually groundbreaking at that time.
I can accept those who prefer this new version if they had read the novel because that means they love the changes made by the producers/writers of this new version. I, however, prefer films and tv shows to be more faithful to the source material as much as possible even though I know the medium will be different.
I loved the book , Clavell changed it for the mini series focusing on Blackthorn, which i loved , but was of its time . The new series was brilliant as well , which one do I prefer The Book you can never make a show that has the intimate details of a book .
Agreed. It would take a 22 episode series to cover the subtleties from the book. Maybe even two seasons to let the audience catch their breath.
2:31 It's been decades since I read the book but I'm 90% certain his name is just Yabu. I think the name changes in the modern version are to make the series more palatable for a Japanese audience. The original was written with only a western audience in mind, and some of the names might sound ridiculous in modern Japan. They also changed the names of some locations to their modern versions (e.g. Anjiro -> Ajiro).
I read the novel , watched both series, loved them all but 2024 's version was by far the best.
I think the dance moment was kinda switched with the moment when John tought him how to do this jump from the boat
The 1980s version used the names from the novel, no name was shortened.
The 1980s version is supreme for the following reasons:
Yoko Shimada
Toshiro Mifune
Richard Chamberlain
John-Rhys Davies
Damien Thomas
Furankî Sakai
Vladek Sheybal
Yûki Meguro
Alan Badel
Too bad the 2024 version had only Hiroyuki Sanada as equal to the best actors featured in the 1980 version.
@@Latinkon i disagree,ochiba yabushige and buntaro did an amazing job for their roleswith the first 2 ,far better then 80s version for me
Considering the time and that it was made for TV the 1980 version was quite good. I'd read the book several times before the series came out, and was not unhappy with the TV version overall. The modern version didn't focus on the romance aspect oddly.
I would disagree that the battle didn't take place. I believe that although Ishido realizes he has been outmaneuvered from the message, like the daimyo of episode 7, he would still have fought even though the final result was already determined.
According to several people I spoke to, Portuguese priests wearing orange garments in the 1980 Mini-Series was explained in the novel. It was because the Japanese required this of them because priests in Japan wore orange.
Actually Yabu's name in the book IS Yabu not Yabushige. Fuji is named Fujiko in the book. How about making a video about the differences between both TV series and the novel? 😉😉
Aesthetically the 2024 version is gorgeous and obviously has the budget and technology. The costumes are absolutely beautiful! It is far superior in visual presentation. The 80's version is slightly closer to the book. Storywise I prefer the 80's version because Clavell's intent was to tell the story through Blackthorne's POV of a stranger in a strange land adapting into a different culture and later gaining respect. The new version made Blackthorne more of an observer than the focal point. The dramatic licenses like Hiromatsu's death, Fuji's final fate and Mariko's Christian burial veered away from the source material more. Yes both Blackthorne and Mariko did share a bathtub in the book and the 80's version. The 2024 version didn't want to tread on modern sensibilities. That boat scene with Blackthorne and Fuji did tug at the heartstrings though. It is a beautiful scene but not in the book. Hiroyuki Sanada is fantastic but Toshiro Mifune is Toshiro Mifune. There was more chemistry between Richard Chamberlain and Yoko Shimada than Cosmo Jarvis and Anna Sawai.
Totally agree. All good points.
I remember watching the 1980s version of Shogun when it was new. It was amazing and the performances were stellar. The lack of subtitles was a brave decision and paid off - we're all in the dark with Blackthorne until he learns rudimentary Japanese. The 2024 version also has incredible performances, and I've read that the Japanese spoken in this version is closer to the Japanese from that period (the equivalent of Elizabethan English). Overall, I think the 2024 version has a more "realistic" feel to it and the cinematography is pure poetry. But I love them both.
I personally prefer the original leading cast to the update. I can't warm up to the new Blackthorne. I find him annoying and beyond arrogant considering his situation. IMO, Richard Chamberlain was perfectly cast. The new Mariko is not as delicate or charming as the old. And while Hiro Sanada is one of my favorite actors and isn't a slouch portraying Toranaga, Toshiro Mifune is still the gold standard in that role as far as I'm concerned. Also, I love that they filmed in Japan for the original. The change made to Mariko's character, i.e., warrior training, isn't even part of the book as far as I remember, and it GRATES. I hate when women's roles and characters are updated for the current "girl boss" indoctrination, taking a sharp departure from the source material. There is nothing wrong with traditional female traits and strengths. I also don't like how Omi has been weasel-fied. I liked him very much in the original.
All good points. The new Blackthorne is kind of goofy and also seems to lurch about when he walks.
Reread the book. Mariko engages in combat several times in the book. Only in the book, Mariko fights with a sword instead of the naginata that she uses in the 2024 miniseries. The book also mentions that it was common for samurai to train their daughters in combat so that they could defend the home. There is nothing "girl bossy" about 2024 Mariko. She's a traditional Samurai woman with a traditional Samurai upbringing, and it's faithful to the book.
@@bewilderedbeest thanks for the clarification.
@@bewilderedbeest Yes, samurai women were trained to defend their families and commit seppuku (need to be accurate with the blade). I read the book a long time ago and can't remember Mariko fighting Ishido's guards like in the 2024 version.
Though you think that new version Mariko is not girl bossy, she was not portrayed with the kind of delicate grace and femininity Mariko possessed in the novel. One can be feminine and still know how to defend oneself if needed. The behavior of 2024 Mariko is too modern and wouldn't be accepted in patriarchal and fuedal Japan.
One thing I noticed is that the Japanese always add "san" to a person's name but fail to do so in the new series. It is a polite form of address when talking to someone. They do it in the original series, and in the book, but not in the new series. It would actually have been extremely rude to address a person without adding "san" to their name. The new series does use "sama", which is the suffix used when addressing someone of higher rank, but not "san", which is typically used for everybody else.
The better question would be which version more closely matches the book. It seems you haven't read the book. It is an absolute certainty that the book is best, and actually contains much more material. It's also certain that no movie would fail to make some changes to the story, but hopefully not the important points. One thing about the book: there are a bunch of languages, Dutch, English, Spanish, Portuguese, Latin, Japanese, and maybe even a little Italian and Chinese. And the reader always knows what language is being spoken, and which characters speak that language. This is a very key plot point, and the 1980 version's biggest failing is that they left all this out. (Did you ever notice that most Nazi villains actually speak English, with maybe a German accent?)
You’ll need to read the book to understand the 80’s version, which is closer to the book than the modern retelling (which takes way too many liberties in the story).
Examples:
- Yabu’s name is Yabu in the book, not Yabushige. A number of names are changed in the modern version (without explanation)
- In the original, the timing of Toranaga is spot on, and the situation is straight out of the book
- The orange robes are worn as they replicate the ones worn by Buddhist monks, and a way for the Jesuits to blend in (explained in the book)
- The jail scene is accurate to the book
- The assassination attempt of Blackthorne is also accurate in the 80’s; using assassins of the Amida
- The Mariko and Ochiba back story is completely made up in the modern version
- Fujiko’s husband’s death didn’t ‘help’ Toranaga. It was seen as shameful, and he is put to death (as is their son)
Also, in the 80’s, like in the book, Blackthorne is the main protagonist, with Mariko a closer second, and the story around Toranaga, third. In the modern story, is more Mariko heavy - she is ultimately the main character.
James Clavell was also consulted for the 80’s version, and insisted on the story being faithful to his bookz
though the earlier version was melodramatic, it established the relationships and had a lot better chemistry btw most of the cast. what i appreciate about the newer version is a japanese pov, sets/costumes etc. anna played mariko well but lacked both chemistry and charisma of yoko shimada... but then you'd have had to watch the first one first for comparison. cosmo played blackthorne better as a scumbag pilot/ sailor but like the new mariko, lacked chemistry and the directors didn't establish relationships very well. toronaga/sinada was fine but lacked the gravitas of mifune. in contrast, i did like the casting of the bontaro, yabu, ochiba, and fuji better than the original. in fact, i thought the actresses that played ochiba or fuji could've been cast better as mariko.
That's exactly what I thought.
The actress Anna Sawai has a very cool, modern appearance, almost arrogant.
Given her past, Mariko would to have a differently character, like women in feudal Japan in general.
They tried to write a strong female role and didn't realize what the real strength of the Mariko from the book was.
Yoko Shimeda portrayed this perfectly in the 1980 series.
Gentle on the outside but tough on the inside. This gave the dialogs with Anjin interesting moments.
For the role of Mariko, I would have preferred Fumi Nikaidô
(Ochiba No Kata).
Anna Sawai Anna Sawai with her bossy Style
would have been the bette fit for the Role from Ochiba No Kata.
However, I also wonder why I never saw her as a
Japanese.
In the novel, Blackthorne was not a scumbag nor a bumbling fool but he was arrogant because he was a navigator, a senior rank given to male members of educated families in England and sometimes even to gentlemen/gentry. So the new Blackthorne did not portray this character properly.
And old version Omi was a lot better. Actually, all the cast of the original version were a lot better in terms of acting and presence. In the new version, I can accept most of the cast even though they were mostly out of character based on the book but I can't accept the new Blackthorne. I like the new version Fuji better, though.
I saw the 80s version first, and liked it. The 2024 version was also good in its own way! The only thing that bothered me with the 2024 version was the absolute lack of chemistry between Mariko and John. In the 80s version, from the first moment they see each other, the sympathy and mutual attraction is undeniable, whereas in the 2024 version, I couldn't help feeling that Mariko really disliked him! When they were at last intimate, I had to wonder why? Because the absolute lack of buildup to that made it make no sense.
Did anyone else miss the chemistry from the 80s version, in the 2024 version?
They change so much in the new version that a lot of events/actions couldn't be explained properly because events leading to those actions did not really take place. And a whole lot more.
It's really a 70s version, produced right after the book became a bestseller after being published in 1975. It was only aired in 1980.
Making it an 80s version… movies and shows are produced in different years all of the time, just because avatar 3 finished filming last year, it doesn’t mean anyone is going to claim it’s a 2023 movie. This series aired in 1980 making it an 80s version. Not that hard to comprehend.
@@zimvader25 Well since you want to be pedantic about it 1980 is still in the 70's until it ends. The next decade does not start till 1981 just like the millennium was not until 2001. So @samlanganke1262 was right. The more you know. 🤓
@@jimlamb7642 No, the 70s ended with the last day of '79 and the millenium started with the first day of 2000.
Its called the 80s and not the 81s
@@wolf310ii You are mistaking common parlance with actual time passage. There is no year 0 in the Gregorian calendar which means that the name of the year is applied to the 12 months preceding the completion of that year(in common parlance) vice the time after completion (which is when the actual year is counted). So technically 1980 is the one thousand nine hundred and seventy ninth year until Jan 1 1981 when the one thousand nine hundred and eightieth year is completed. Think of it like this, if I give you 19 dollars and 99 cents I have not given you 20 dollars till I hand over that last penny.
@@jimlamb7642 No, the fictional figur Jesus would have on 1.1.1980 its 1979 birthday (all the error and corretions to the julian calender aside), but its the 1980s year AD.
The gregorian calender doesnt have a year 0, but the year 10AD already has a 0, its only the very first decade of the gregorian calender that has only 9 years.
The 80s started when the counter switched from 7 to 8, not one year later.
Both are very good but as others have noted the 1980 version is much closer to the book. While the 2024 version deals much more with Toranaga and Mariko it doesn't explain Blackthorne's relationship with Toranaaga as well and why Toranaga saves him multiple times. In the book and 1980's version there are moments of both seriousness and levity between them that give more insight into their relationship. In this sense while Hiroyuke Sanada is an outstanding actor he's almost too grave and reserved rather than Mifune who could act both with gravitas but also come off as more human.
This was fun. I feel that Clavell wrote a great work of historical fiction essentially about the Tokugawa shogunate as understood through Western eyes. Regardless, I much prefer the 2024 version as it is more culturally accurate from a Japanese point of view and helps us to better learn about an interesting culture while we are entertained.
That is fine if you are after a Japanese perspective. Even though I am Asian, I prefer a film or TV show to be more faithful to the source material. Since I have read the novel, I prefer the 80s version because it was more faithful to the novel.
"This means that almost every scene between two people talking in Japanese is cut and replaced with English speakers."
No, I don't think there is a single instance of this in the '80s series. The '80s series does indeed _cut_ a huge deal of the Japanese interaction, but in no case is it replaced with English speakers. The '80s miniseries is fairly faithful to the novel, but includes only about 50% of it.
And no, Yabu's name was not shortened in the '80s version. You're treating the two series' as if the '24 version came first and the '80s second.
And the interaction with the Jesuit in the prison was not padding in the '80s version - it was amputated in the '24 version. In the novel, Blackthorne spent a significant amount of time learning from that man.
I found the '80s series to be fairly decent, but nothing more, when I first watched it. There were so many questions that went unanswered. Then I read the book, and the series improved greatly - now I was able to fill in all the blanks. I have started watching the '24 version, but nothing about it has hooked me yet. I'm averaging about an episode a month, I just don't feel invested in it.
Other differences: the 1980 series was filmed in Japan, while the new show was filmed in Canada.
In the 1980 series Rodriguez was the very outspoken, extravagant character. In the 2024 series they made Yabu the outspoken, extravagant character. This change didn't fit well, it made Yabu a goofy, dumb character instead of an evil traitor.
Both were amazing. I felt the 80s was truer to Japanese mannerisms as well. Father Alvito in the 80s version had commanding presence. And I must say the women were hotter in the 80s version. But i do appreciate the story twist in modern version. Because I never felt like Toronaga was in much danger in original version. Where as I didn’t feel like Blackthorn was in much danger in modern one…or I didn’t care much because his personality sucked
The Yabu in the original series was actually a comedian rather than an actor. It seems strange but it worked.
I watched the 1980 version first and, likely as a result, prefer it although I enjoyed both. This likely exposes my preference for a story more centered around Blackthorne as the main protagonist, as was the case in the 1980 version, as opposed to Toranaga as was the case in the modern version. I believe that the less complicated relationship between Blackthorne and Mariko / Toranaga depicted in the 1980 version is more rewarding. I want Blackthorne and Mariko to be together and I want Blackthorne and Toranaga to be friends and have mutual respect, and that desire is rewarded more in the 1980 version. I also like the lack of sub-titles in the original as it does have the desired effect of helping the viewer feel out of place.
And if you read the novel, you will see how more faithful to the novel the 80s version was given that James Clavell was involved in the writing process and his goal was for the viewers to feel like Blackthorne did as a foreigner in feudal Japan.
For all its claims to be more authentic, the new version sure misses on several points.
Why is it raining and dusk throughout the 2024 version?
Why is the lady Toda's Naginata training in sgi? Why, if you are going to use computer graphics, don't you use them to make the landscape look less Nordic (Vikings)?
Why are all the castle walls Uchi-Komi hagi, which were mostly use later in the Edo era?
Why is the blade that Blackthorn is given by lady Fuji(ko) so obviously a bad tourist/souvenir sword, like those you can buy in Asakusa?
Why do some of the zori used in the 2024 version have a rubber surface?
Why are you asking these questions under the video of some fan of the series who can hardly answer your questions instead of asking them to the producers or their public relations department?
@@patrickrada2923Maybe because he or she is addressing the claims of the fans of this new version? I am not sure but did the producers and marketing team claim that this version is more authentic than the 80s version that was more faithful to the novel given that James Clavell was part of the writing process?
My bigest problem is the scene with the canons. No canon from the 17 century had that accuracy. Why not stick to the rifles like in the book?
Great comparison video! Much appreciated.
I haven't yet watched 2024 Shogun, but there's nothing that will diminish my love for the 1980 Shogun. Who didn't fall in love with the actress Yoko Shimada who portrayed Mariko? The series also exposed me to the greatness that is Toshiro Mifune, and I became a fan since. I recently bought the 1980 Shogun DVD set and plan to watch it for the first time in 44 years before watching the new series.
In the 80s version I felt had a more "white savior" mentality I guess because it was closer to the source material. The modern version, because of its much larger Japanese producer, cast, and crew influence, made some cultural corrections bringing it closer to how it would really have been. In the modern version, Blackthorn was more a side character while in the 80s, he was the lens by which the audience navigated through the world of the Sengoku Jidai. In other words the European-centric perspective.
Thats woke BS, there was no savior mentality at all in the 80s version.
The premise of the book was the clash of cultures, and how the Japanese realised that Blackthorne had knowledge and skills that were useful, so they used him for their own ends. He was no 'white saviour' He was a resource.
What are you talking about? The novel, if you read it, has no white savior theme. In fact, Toranaga was using the knowledge of Blackthorne because the Portuguese left out so many details about the world beyond Japan, China and Korea. Blackthorne was at the mercy of the warlords. He was saving his own skin and was being used by Toranaga. The same goes with the 80s version because it was more faithful to the novel.
And why wouldn't the 80s version unfold through the eyes of the white man? It was faithful to the novel, a historical fiction written by a white man. If you want a Japanese perspective then a Japanese could have written that novel but then it wouldn't be the same storyline like what happened in the new version. And the new version should not have used Shogun as its basis if the producers want to "correct' the inaccuracies (as expected given that it is a historical fiction, goodness). But then, it is easier to build from something already created than to start anew.
The novel was James Clavell's so he should narrate it the way he wanted it. He should be allowed those so-called inaccuracies because he was writing fiction and he was not Japanese but a mere observer just like a Japanese would misinterpret some cultural traits of people in Wester countries. And yet, the novel actually showed Japan as being civilized despite the seppuku and killing of peasants at will by warlords and samurai.
I am so tired of this CRT viewpoints even though I am an Asian female living in SE Asia and I know a lot about colonialism and imperialism because I live in a once colonized Asian country.
@@wolf310ii Completely agree. As greencloud states, it's mainly about the class of cultures, and how the Europeans in particular adapt. Indeed, one of the main facets of Blackthorne's character arc is how he slowly adapts to Japanese culture; this is probably no more obvious than when he visits his old crew in the Eta village.
the 80 version of course. It hasnt only shape my liife and my love of japanese things, but also helpt me to learn Japanese so much so that the female calligraphy teacher at the Ethnographic Museum in Stockholm, who only spoke Japanese, looked at me in surprise and exclaimed "you understand a little Japanese, don't you?`Nihongo wa sukoshi wakarimasu ne?'" Whereupon I nodded with a smile and replied "Hai". The 80s version is also closer to the novel i have read it eight times. I was 11 when it first was broadcasted in sweden and i loved it from the first minute.
The 1980's version is clearly the best!
Buddhist priests wear orange, so the Christian priests were kind of drafting off the "priest" part, so that they'd be easily recognized as religious men.
The 1980 version was far closer to the novel, if you read it, including the sea chanty/hornpipe.
So, so, so much was different from the novel in the 2024 version. It is a long book, but you really need to read it before comparing the two video versions. The '80 version's loyalty to the novel explains much of what you commented upon in this post.
1980 Fuji pretty AF tho
The orange robe of the Jesuits did happen, but only in Japan and only for a few months, maybe only three or four. This happened because the Jesuits, after starting their work in Japan, needed people and daimyos to pay them respect like Buddhist monks who walked in saffron robes. However, after the arrival of the general of the order to Japan on another ship, this modification was immediately prohibited, and the Jesuits then wore their traditional, i.e. black robes.