The Terminator (1984) Happened 3 times - THEORY
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2019
- Kyle Reese is John Connors dad from the future...Chicken or the Egg? This is what I think about it.
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#TheTerminator #T2 #TerminatorDarkFate - Розваги
They should have done it as a trilogy, with the third movie set in the future war, and the ending of the third movie leading into the beginning of the first movie.
That's where I feel they wanted the franchise to go in a 4th movie (not Salvation) but 3 didn't fare so well so they got away from the plan.
3 ending with Judgement Day plays right in to 4 with opening scenes having Connor setting up the resistance.
That's what most of us wanted!
thats what happened in terminator:genisys- the end of that movie is the beginning of the first movie almost like atar wars rogue one with a new hope
Isn't this what they technically did? 3 ENDS on Judgment Day and 4 OPENS with Salvation, a movie all about JC. 3 is just a garbage movie that should have bridged that gap a lot better, and Salvation could have been a trilogy of its own. Imagine a time line where we get a trilogy based in the future war with Alien elements where the Terminators are the Xenos. Do Alien, Aliens and then Terminator.
I know most don't agree, but I was really excited to see what woulda come out of the Genisys trilogy they planned. Knowing they sent terminators even further back, both good and bad, was really exciting, and the fact that it was a true war with the fabric of time just felt awesome.
You miss the timeline where Kyle overshoots 1984, ends up in the Old West, and lives out his life under the assumed name of Johnny Ringo.
I'm your huckleberry
lol that;s perfect
I can just imagine him in a Quantum Leap style thing.
"You've got to take out Ed Harris.
Twice."
I always wanted Terminator or Predator in old West
right.
he also missed the timeline where Kyle Reese over shoots his target Universe, finds himself as Neil O’Donoghue; kicker; Cardinals 1984 instead, overshooting field goal target too and misses the chance for his team to go to the playoff for that season. Lives out the rest of his pathetic life drunk nonstop at the local watering hole rambbling on about killer robots from the future with thick Austrian-American accents......
I can accept multiple timelines. what I can't accept is the terminator needing a laser sight on his pistol LOL
Cause its freaking cool maaaaaaan
I mean, if a machine is going to shoot, the most efficient way to process all that is with a laser and some kind of camera looking for the reflection.
Actually I'm pretty sure modern drones use lasers for range finding and stuff. Wouldn't be visible though
Modern attack aircraft and drones use laser to designate their targets. Given the terminators have lower quality sensor in their eyes, their capability of 3D mapping of their environments is limited. Target acquisition based on a inherently flawed sensor is inefficient. The most logical way to overcome this issue is to add a simple laser sight to their weapons.
@@bastadimasta robocop never needed a laser sight...
My theory was always that John Connor was originally just some guy. Just some Resistance Commander who managed to win battles and rally humanity into beating the machines. Skynet sent a Terminator back to kill Sarah before Johns birth and Reese was just the guy sent back to save her and he and Sarah fell in love, Sarah raised John to be the future leader etc etc.
A different theory I have is that Skynet went back in time more to set itself up sooner in hopes of winning the war, and killing Sarah and John was more of a bonus objective.
That doesn't make sense, because the only reason the technology was found by Cyberdyne in the 80s was because the original T-800 was defeated in the factory. It failed its mission.
Actually, I think John Connor's real father is the guy who leaves a message on the answering machine, and that she slept with him, and he was calling to ditch her, unaware that she was already pregnant. Sarah only thinks Reese is John's father, which she plants the idea into John's head and John sends Reese back thinking he was his father, when in reality, he's not. XD
What if john wasn't originally Kyle's son but kyle coming back in time made a new john connor.
Would be a giant twist. But a very unappealing outcome. But it kind of makes sense.
@@joby-wankenobinolan3428 Like what the above video pointed out?
I like this more then 2 fathers making the same son. DNA plays to much of a factor of who we become as a person for 2 diffrent fathers giving the same needed traits to form and lead a rebellion vs AI genocidal robots
@@oathborn7880 But actually they don't make the same son. Apparently it's Sarah's fate to have a son. But he looks very different in the various sequels, you can totally link that to the differnt timelines having Sarah getting pregnant at a different time, ending up in a different John.
That older John Connor with Kyle Reese picture is so heart warming. That's the sequel we all wanted. The future war. A Future War sequel would tie up all of the loose end of 1 and 2 and we'd see how the war ended.
If Sarah had a kid with Enrique like the screencap suggest, we could’ve got Juan Connor.
The chosen Juan.
"You're pretty jumpy, Connor"
I like how Kyle always wonder what was going on in Sara's mind while the picture was taken, it never crossed his mind she was thinking about him, missing him.
It’s a predestined paradox loop. John Connor and Skynet are conceived on the same night.
Am I the only one who looks at the first Terminator movie as actually more of a horror movie?
That movie was scary as hell.OJ Simpson was considered for Arnold's part but was considered "too nice".Nothing would be scarier now though.
Agreed
Thank God.
I always think I'm going crazy when I explain to people there must be a "prime timeline" where Kyle isn't John's father and that John more than likely caused the paradox by sending Kyle back.
Same here! When I ask my BF “how can John Connor exist when he must’ve had a different original father??” He has no explanation, this makes sense though.
Also, how can Skynet exist without the help of itself sending the machine back in time (the arm and chip Miles uses the technology from is what forms skynet) there must be another “prime timeline” where skynet exists without the help of this
I'm sure some viewers here might be familiar with the 'John Connor did not exist' theory; The resistance originally created 'John Connor' as a codename of sorts - either in honour of a fallen soldier who performed a single heroic act, or as a form of disinformation to hide the identities of their top commanders - in order to confuse Skynet and cause it to spread its forces thin in the wrong places. The resistance also makes known that 'John's' mother was called 'Sarah'.
The machines, under the impression that 'John Connor' was the biggest threat to them, sent the T-800 back to eliminate his mother. The resistance, wanting to stop or limit any damage to the timeline, send an agent named Kyle Reese through the time machine as well. The terminator begins a process of trial and error, killing several 'Sarah Connors' before Reese is able to intervene and save one. Since this is the first timeline, things are more difficult, and Reese has to sell the story of John Connor to Sarah to legitimise his presence. This Reese is different, colder, more aloof, but eventually they fall in love and sleep together, before he is killed as they try to take out the terminator...
This sets up Sarah, now pregnant with his child, to prepare for the future. She names her son John and teaches him everything she has learned. Judgement day eventually comes, and John, influenced by what he was told, works his way up to become an effective leader in the resistance. Aware that his father was a soldier from this time, he seeks out and befriends Kyle Reese, telling him stories of his mother and giving a photo of her to him. Boom. We now have the path to the timeline we see in the film, and all players involved now have a clearer objective.
I may be a little rusty on some parts, or it may be similar to other theories, but that's what I heard, anyway.
Go back and rewatch it that Democratic version of terminator dark fake isn’t counted as canon
Every time I watch T1 I'm surprised how well directed, edited, and acted it all is!
Absolute lightning in a bottle!
God, I love T1 and T2 so much. Those two films are truly masterpieces. No matter how much bad Terminator Sequels Hollywood will release, those two films will always be untouchable.
@BLAIR M Schirmer Here is my response to you for insulting Terminator 2: Judgement Day and I quote The Terminator himself: *"Fuck You, Asshole."*
How did we all get recommended this 2 year old video at the same time?
The Terminator series has more legs than what movie studios think, that's why.
The only reason the original film's timeline has become a tainted mess is because T2, I know it's a great film but the original film was a perfect closed loop, that was the whole twist
I agree but i think 1 and 2 are the closed loop. In the second film the blow up cyberdyne yeah but that doesnt stop anything. They thought it did but they were wrong.
That would make sense if not for the deleted scenes of T1. Implications of a sequel, given that JC had a low funding for 1 but amazing ideas, having made enough money, look what T1 could have been with a T2 budget... actually... no! Would have been a CGI sht shw
@@johnm3907 no. It DID stop everything. T3 said no! Destroying records and research, there weren't cloud based systems to save those huge floppy disks on lol. T3 isn't cannon
@@wayneberry3453 t3 had a different judgement day so that isnt same loop. 1 and 2 in same loop because even though they blew up cyberdyne the terminator and reese were still sent back. If judgement day was stopped the terminator would never have been sent back. It has the same loop as 12 monkeys. Cant change the future, try as you might.
@@wayneberry3453 cgi barely existed in 1984, regardless of budget.
My favorite afterthought about Terminator is that both Kyle and the T-800 are the fathers of the future conflict. Kyle for fathering the human resistance leader, and the T-800 for leaving a processor that speeds up the production of Skynet.
My thought too, it gets even more apparent through the deleted scene when sarah at the end is put in the ambulance the camera is shifted toward the building which says "cyberdyne" if i recall correctly
I think Terminator is supposed to be a closed causal loop where the time travel element always happened because the past cannot actually be changed. It is an infinite loop. This of course was upended by the addition of Terminator sequels, but the first film is actually an accurate portrayal of how time travel is theorized to function if possible. Kyle always appears in 1984 to father John.
The Terminator movie is predestination time loop because the photo that Kyle had in the future is exactly the same as the one taken of Sarah at the end of The Terminator. This heavily suggests that the events of The Terminator fulfilled the predestination paradox: The T-800 and Kyle Reese traveled back in time to fulfill their roles in history, not to change it.
It was way more than 3 times. Each John Conner is from a different timeline. Christian Bale, Edward Furlong, Nick Stahl, Jason Clarke etc. Different John Connors from alternate realities. This subject is addressed in Terminator Genesis.
.
Except for T1 T2 and Salvation the rest are not considered as movies. Couldn’t agree more!
Just typing so I understand this
Original John Connor is only related to Sarah.
Kyle Reece is sent back to protect Sarah from Termination, falls in love and pregnates her with a new baby still named John Connor.
New John Connor must send back Kyle Reece to secure the current timeline where Sarah defeated Skynet, otherwise she would be killed and he wouldn't be born. Original John Connor has been retconned out of existence 😂
"I came across time for you, Sarah." One of the greatest lines of all times. Alongside "I have crossed oceans of time to find you" and "Be strong, survive, stay alive no matter what occurs, I will find you, no matter how long it takes, no matter how far, I will find you".
@Spaced Invaders, thank you, sir.
When people or Skynet go back in time, they are choosing to erase everything that previously happened from the arrival date forward. It is a closed door, and it does not repeat. It does not create a loop, because it changes everything. Therefore, if they send someone back again in the future to undo something they experienced, it all starts over from that new point.
The future is not set, because they can now manipulate time, but it all remains as one timeline, because it erases as it is used.
There is no fate but the one we Re-Make
Hi 90 Lancaster, i see you get around man, how ya doing! (smiles). See you on the Midnight Edge vids.
@@MGSBigBoss77 If someone posts regular content on franchise i'm interested in and I like them I tend to stick with them.
Kinda wish people would talk about the TV Show more. it really did have some great things going for it.
I was pissed when it was canceled
Yeah I enjoyed it!
Gamma?
It got canceled because it costs too much. Everybody likes to say that Fox canceled it, but they actually greenlit another season. So Time Warner said okay you pay for it. TW was paying anywhere from 2/3 to 3/4 of the budget. Which was almost $1 million per episode.
@@barryallen5905 GTFO
I'm from the future and Terminator 9 explains everything. I can't tell you anything though bc it will fuck up future events. Thank you and greetings from 2034
How are you enjoying Neo-Feudalist 2034?
Damn. That’s two more failed reboots before I get a shot at it.
@@Y2Kr4SHM4N more like oppressive, totalitarian surveillance nanny-state, but ok
@@tadpolegaming4510 Neofeudalist, totalitarian nanny state post Great Reset.
They’ll tell you it’s to protect us from climate change, which is real, but it’s not the reason. The billionaires want the middle class erased and everyone poor. As the population growth isn’t keeping up with the model of capitalism. You need an ever expanding populace of poor people.
Hence, a great reset to reset the debt. The poor can pay for it. The billionaires must maintain their living standards Y’know.
@@tadpolegaming4510 Did you understand what is meant by neo-feudalism?
6:56 - "At some point they fall in love and BANG!" Well played, sir. Well played.
This theory is actually an apt justification for Dark Fate:
John Connor gets killed because we're in some n-th iteration of the timeline repeating itself that has drifted too far away from John being the savior of manking, and he dies because the John Connor that saves man kind wasn't even the John Connor son of Kyle Reese but the original John Connor from the 1st timeline.
And so the timeline gets all messed up and everything changes.
It should of stopped at T2.
Just remember, Kyle Reese responded toSarah's _So you're from the future too_ with *_"one POSSIBLE future"_* , not a set in stone future.
John becoming a US senator would make him way worse and more destructive than any terminator out there
Lol. That's accurate.
Haha, and smarmy!
I actually cringed when Sarah said his weapons are common sense and hope. Two things that most officials in government lack in spades as of 2021! On both sides of the aisle!
I feel like you didn't get what the third movie was trying to say.
when they said that judgment day is inevitable in the third movie they didn't imply that there is fate. They meant that whatever you do mankind will always create artificial intelligence that will be its successor simply because humankind is thirsty for progress and advancement. Meaning mankind forges its own fate to destruction and you can only postpone it until the next scientist creates it. which is pretty much what the second movie's message is.
Marduk401 exactly
Yeah I always got that it was never so much "Judgement Day is going to happen at this exact date in this exact way." I was under the impression that Judgement Day was just a universal constant of any number of variables.
Basically Judgement Day will always happen no matter what, it just never happens the same way twice.
And it's a realistic and logical direction to take
Or not.
My favourite fan theory: John Connor's father was the guy who stood up Sarah on a Friday night. The guy with the Porsche.
Hey, wouldn't you cancel on a date if you saw on the news that some psycho was going around slaughtering people with her name? Self-preservation, man.
He, could have just been a date, for that evening
_Could have been._
Could've been her date last Friday too 😉
Pretty bold of kyle to knock Sarah up considering he wasnt the original father in the first timeline. They potentially could have ended up with a completely different version of john or even could have had a daughter instead.
@Robert Wilkins Or, original John Connor understood that he was not unique but just happened to have the skills needed and to be in the right place at the right time, and that he as an individual was less important than the myth of him as the great leader of the resistance, so he sacrificed himself by sending Reese back to ensure that a "John Connor" could be born.
Something I’ve always wondered about is that the Terminator in T1 was killing Sarah Connors in the order they appeared in the phone book.
Is it possible then, that the terminator killed the *right* Sarah, but in doing so, accidentally forced the last Sarah left standing to become the Sarah of prophecy because that’s the one that was left for Kyle to find? For all we know, one of the other Sarahs already had a son who was born named John - but the tragedy of losing his mother threw him off the path of becoming the future resistance leader.
I can appreciate the argument that Kyle had a picture of Sarah, but he traveled to the past as a consequence of the terminator having already traveled back in time. This put the terminator on the path to killing the first 2 Sarahs, which would cause the picture (and Kyle’s memory of it) to change.
TheFigure woah that’s some trippy shit
This isn't back to the future, so the photo thingy isn't guaranteed to work the same lol.
No.
They removed it along with the lets blow up Cyberdyne sub-plot, but in the script it's heavily implied that the "limited information" Skynet used to select the time and place to send the Terminator, was actually Sarah's hospitalization report after her encounter with the Terminator. It's a short removed exchange between Traxler and Vukovic. The Terminator mutilated the 1st Sarah left leg for some reason. At the end, it turns out it was trying to confirm the kill, trying to find the metal plate used to fix her leg after she was skewered with a piece of the endoskeleton.
Thinking about if this theory is correct then technically John Connor actually killed himself by sending Kyle Reese into the past to stop himself from being killed and is replaced by an alternate john connor fathered by kyle reese. Ironically the Terminator being sent back in time to protect skynet also causes the destruction of skynet only to be replaced by an alternate skynet "fathered" by Cyberdyne.
I noticed original John Connor's father might be that guy Sarah was going on a date with that same night (can't remember his name).
My theory is that in that timeline he saw there was a guy killing every Sarah Connor in L.A and called to cancel the date making some excuse cause he got scared. Oh, and he didn't tell her because he was an asshole.
He might have been an asshole in the previous timeline which is why Sarah doesn't name her son "John Morsky".
The selfie Sarah took was the exact same one Kyle memorised, so obviously that was supposed to be a 12 Monkeys style ending where an attempt to change history only put a small loop in it.
It was a horror movie, where human victory was inevitable, but so was the war. "There's a storm coming"
Minor point but that wasn't a selfie. A young boy took the photo.
This would make more sense if Sarah was already pregnant just before Kyle time travelled back. So John is not Kyle's son but she could have believed it.
She lived a rather promiscuous lifestyle.
1:49 "Both movies end on the note, the future is not set....Until Terminator 3 ruined it".
Not true, infact - The 1st movie's time travel business doesn't change any of the events at all, in fact everything comes full circle (this is due to the movie originally meant to be a 1 off)
Everything Reese describes from his future happens and it comes apparent that John has *always been HIS kid*, considering Reese mentions John is his height and that Johns father dies before the war, everything plays out as it's described and the proof in the pudding is despite all the time travel, the photo of Sarah we see from Reese's future still happens and isn't altered in the slightest.
The first Terminator film doesn't have a 'no fate but what we make' ending.
The 2nd one does.
The problem is, if you ignore every other film in the franchise, Terminator 1 is a perfect time travel film with no plot holes.
If Terminator 1 is the only canon film, Kyle Reese is always John's father, and Judgement Day happens the exact same way in every timeline. It's a permanent feedback loop. There's no re-writing the past, there's no un-doing the past, there's no change whatsoever.
It's a feedback loop that mirrors itself repeatedly and infinitely.
Kyle meets Sarah in the past. Sarah and Kyle have John. Judgement Day occurs. John trains Kyle. Kyle enters the time machine... and
Kyle meets Sarah in the past. Sarah and Kyle have John. Judgement Day occurs. John trains Kyle. Kyle enters the time machine... and
Kyle meets Sarah in the past. Sarah and Kyle have John. Judgement Day occurs. John trains Kyle. Kyle enters the time machine... and
That's why Terminator 1 is a perfect film. But then the sequels had to kind of ruin it (I still think T2 is amazing btw and arguably a better action film.) When they introduced the notion that the events of the future can be changed by going into the past, the perfect feedback loop was ruined and the franchise was pummeled with plotholes.
The only way to stop the entire sequence of events is to stop the terminator from going back in time at all. That's the real plot hole, provided there's only one time sequence, since Skynet created itself causally by time-jumping the first terminator.
Psychor The Terminator is a stand-alone. There really only is one movie.
Completely disagree. That would make zero sense. Its like saying there is no beginning to any of these events but there absolutely has to be. Everything has a beginning even existence itself. Your theory is too simple and doesnt work.
@@mr.nobody9697lmao, it's actually the only existing model implementing actual science.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle
After Kyle is sent back, what happens from the perspective of John or a fellow resistance fighter?
I always thought of the first movie as a closed loop. Everything happens because it always happened and always will.
That’s how I got it to.
Exactly! So we only needed The terminator , Terminator: Judge ment day and James Cameron's future war :Terminator 2029 AD.
I don't understand the closed loop theory. Could you explain? I am thinking like the video creator, which came first the chicken or the egg? If it's a closed loop, how does it all start?
@Testbed Elite I couldn't have said it better myself! 👍
I like the theory that once you time travel from one universe to another, your life in that universe ends and continues into the one you traveled to.
It’s a well constructed theory, but I don’t really agree. I believe the film is meant to be a causality loop.
The Terminator always traveled to the past and encountered Sarah who was saved by Kyle Reese, who gets her pregnant and then dies saving her, resulting in Sarah becoming a badass who can train her son to be the savior of the Resistance. John eventually meets Kyle, keeps him close to protect him and gives him the picture so he’ll fall in love with Sarah before being sent back in time and repeating the loop.
There never needed to be another father or alternate timeline because the time travel always occurred within the current one. Terminator 2 just takes a different approach, especially if we count the alternate ending.
@@leonefurlan137 The alternate ending for T2 shows an elderly, but happy Sarah, in a future where Judgment Day never happened, because of the destruction the T-800's CPU and Miles Dyson's work. John Connor is a politician rather than a soldier in this future, with children of his own. You can probably find the scene on UA-cam, if you search for T2 alternate ending or deleted scenes.
Like in the movie Predestination. Only less Jerry Springer-ey😁
All great time travel stories either have causal loops or are alternate timelines. Terminator is causal where the future effects the past.
Ironically the time machine built by skynet is the reason the machines can never win. Jon is an anonymous constant in the time loop and always knows what will happen before the machines do. It really is destiny because its already happened from his older POV. His mother probably told him his fathers name so he kept it a secret all the time he was working with Kyle Reece.
Yep definitely agree.
Can't it just be a perfect time Loop? T2 is the first film where the Loop is broken.
Skynet always sent the Terminator to 1984 from 2029. Kyle Reese was always sent to defeat it and Father John Connor.
The real changes occurred in T2 when the T-1000 was sent to 1995 and the second T-800 sent to protect John from it. These events led to the destruction of Cyberdyne Systems Corporation and the abortion of Skynet.
Your timeline matches up exactly with what I came up with, branching multiverse theory makes the most sense with the different stories we’ve seen (comics/novels/games/tv show/movies). I’m really glad you made this video.
I think it makes more sense that the original timeline has no John Conner. Skynet is loosing the war so they send a terminator back in time to help them get an early advantage. Reese is then sent back in time to stop it. He does BUT has no way home so he meets and impregnates Sarah thus starting the second line where John shows up as a major military leader. The first movie is a third line.
good theory
as it is in the movie is a loop and makes sense. he goes back to the past, impregnates sarah and dies. in the future, john has to send him back since if he doesnt, john will never have existed. loop closed.
Connor didn't send back Reese, Reese volunteered. He even said that.
Reese volunteered because he'd already fallen in love with Sarah based on the photo John gave him. And John gave Kyle the photo because he knew Kyle falling in love with Sarah was what led to his own conception. So sure, Kyle volunteered, because he'd been primed to do so by John.
Was I the only one laughing my ass off at the deleted scene towards the end, no wonder it was left out🤣
Read your comment before that scene, my god it’s terrible. 🤣 like daytime soap opera bad.
lol yes his face is meme-worthy.
If Sarah got knocked up by someone else, her son wouldn't be John Connor. He could be named John Connor, but he would genetically different. She can't produce the same son with different men. I don't understand why Skynet doesn't find out Kyle Reese is his father and kill Kyle Reese instead of sending Terminators back in time. Would have been easier unless John knew who his father was and was protecting him.
I think they try that in Salvation movie.
Yeah, kyle reese took a HUGE gamble when he slept with Sarah in the second timeline. There were a number of potential outcomes that couldve played out for example sarah having a daughter instead, or a kid with a mental disability.
@@h91rex100 do you mean Genysis?
@@mikespearwood3914 he clearly means t1, Kyle banging Sarah changes who John Connor is genetically
@@johnbush5347 "second timeline"...clearly T1 is the original timeline...isn't it?
The simplest solution is that Kyle Reese isn't the father, the father is Sarah's ex boyfriend that is mentioned earlier in the film. They weren't broken up for that long so having sex with Kyle is a coincidence for John's conception.
Cyberdyne Systems is a real company now in Japan and they make robots.
OH SHIT OH NO
@@Ixe2077 💀💀💀💀💀😂
Did they not see the movie?
@@trentryan27 may be, but probably not.
Cool!!!
I would watch any future terminator movie if:
1, reverse roles, humanity lost, humans sent a person to kill the skynet ‘s creator, skynet has to defend.
2, reverse time travel, humans send someone to the past to pick something or someone and bring them back to win the war
3, post judgement day, story about how John became a leader
This will be a great new trilogy
too bad even such movies would probably suck nowadays
This theory, or idea of the multiple timelines to get to what we see, was indeed examined in detail by a gentleman by the name of MJ Young on his time travel blog going back to the late 90s/early 2000s. He recently put it all together in a book. He called it the "sawtooth snap" basically doing exactly as you describe with the first timeline without Reese, then a second, and a third as we see in the movie.
I find it very cool that you came to the same conclusion! Check out his website and his book! You won't be sorry!
At least John Connor didn't go back in time and father himself...
Causality paradox 🤣
John: what was my father like
Sarah: he reminds me of you. He even does the thing you do with your eyes
Well... How can we know that Kyle Reese is really his name?
Yeah kinda like fry being his grandfather from futurama
EXCUSE ME!!!!
So uncouth to say!
The scientific term is: "Doing the nasty in the pasty."
Kyle Reese was one of the most badass action characters of the century. He even adopts the robotic nature of the machines as the machines adopt characteristics of humanity. Making this amazing ying -yang cresendo that ultimately brings forth the question..... are we fated to destroy ourselves?
how does kyls adopt a robotic nature? He feels pain. Gets angry. Most inportantly love for Sarah and more importantly humanity.
@@rickjames5998 Sure he feels pain and emotion. However, look at the movie again. there are parallels, notice in one scene he spends the entire night protecting sarah, foregoing sleep. Or when sarah asks him what is there to eat when he went out and bought materials for plastic explosives. Kyles mission is the most important thing in the world. He foregoes part of his human limitations in order to achieve his goal, while the terminator foregoes his robotic nature to blend into society to achieve its goal.
@@kennethrodriguez8606 thats deep thinking there. I noticed that, but not in such a poetic sense
Here's the real paradox for you. People keep talking about Kyle and Sarah and their son, but as you said, he has to exist. No matter what, there will be a leader who fights the logical machines, and can out match them with illogical/no linear combat tactics.
The Machines, in order to win, must invent a time machine. If they do invent the time machine, that means they are losing. If they invent the time machine, they will lose because they will be stopped.
No matter what, the Machines put themselves in a logical loop. They must always invent the time machine in order to guarantee victory, but once they do, they lose because the humans will ALWAYS go back and stop them, which forces the machines to invent the Time Machine.
So every time a Terminator goes back in time, it postpones Skynet's downfall, but then it also postpones Skynet's rise to power, which postpones the technology available to create Skynet, which postpones the technology available to the humans, which postpones Skynet's victory, which prevents Skynet from obtaining victory, which endangers Skynet and causes them to lose, and forces Skynet to send a terminator back in time to try to stop its own defeat, which postpones skynet's rise to power.....
As Dark Fate has demonstrated - John Connor need not be the leader of the resistance. There will always be a leader. They will always rise to destroy the machines. The humans will always be on the verge of victory, and Skynet will always send a terminator back in time to stop it.
It is a metaphor for the eternal battle of life and light against eternal darkness. It can never come to an end. Our future is what we decide, but we will always be on the cliff of annihilation. When we become complacent we risk destruction.
My theory is Sarah was impregnated by the guy that stood her up, on an earlier date. It was a hookup in his Porche or something. She didn’t know it yet. Riece is not the father. That’s it.
“Genysis” is the only timeline that altered this theory. That was an interesting theory Cordery gave but I’m sticking with mine.
This has been my thoughts for years as well. The fact is you can't invent yourself, so these multiple timelines make the absolute best sense. Thank you for uploading this - now I can show this to explain my thoughts on it to others.
The problem with the first timeline is: John becomes the leader of the resistance because - by the time of the judgement day - he was in the possession of all the knowledge of how to fight the terminators. Info passed down by Kyle Reese and learning from the previous Terminators. And training given to him by Sarah because of all the assassination attempts happened earlier. This is the beauty of the whole paradox. You dont separate these timelines. There was never 3 different timeline. This is like a never ending circle. A serpent which bites his own tail... If you will...
Skynet defeats itself by the fact of sending back all the terminators, so basically supporting John with all the knowledge he needs to fight them in the future. But making sure skynet will be created by the left behind parts of the old terminators.
Without this knowledge John would not stand a chance against the machines even if his father was a military person on the first timeline. Too much information is missing to be able to fight the machines effectively...
This falls apart when the story claims Judgement Day moves. I'd prefer one timeline, but the instant you canonize changing a historical event because of time travel, you have branching timelines.
John could always be the son of Reese, there doesn't have to be an original father. The John's existence prompts the time travel, but it's the time travel that brings his life about.
PS. The potentially awesome movie they never thought of us was finding out Reese is the father and attempting to kill Reese during the War before he can be sent back to save Sarah in T1.
@@riffbw Not necessarily falls apart. So there are these constant time loops on one timeline. And what we experienced in the T2 movie is the so called "breaking the time loop"
Sarah falls asleep, have got that vision which makes him realise the circle is NOT a never ending one. "There's no fate but what we make for ourselves." So she tries to do something about it and brakes the circle...
So basically yes. There are two different timelines. :)
But your other idea is brilliant. I have never thought about the idea of erasing the father instead of the mother. Well it looks like Skynet did not think about it either. :)
I had this exact same theory several years from now. I'll send my Dad back to explain more later.
I have a pretty similar theory to yourself. The difference being that instead of 3 timelines there was an unknown number of different timelines; maybe several, maybe dozens, the exact number wasn't important to my theory.
The point being as you said the original timeline was unaffected by time travel - Kyle Reese wasn't John's father, Judgement Day occurs later because humans haven't got future tech to reverse engineer, and Sarah herself doesn't become a badass.
Then Skynet develops the Time Displacement equipment and sends Terminators back in time to kill important characters, and the Resistance sends protectors after them.
Going back in time either alters the timeline or creates a new one.
The process repeats itself multiple times, which each new timeline being a bit different to the previous one until we finally get to the timeline we see in the films, which is the final timeline.
And in this final timeline Skynet is never created and Judgement Day never occurs, as the characters prevented the apocalyptic future from happening ''The future is not set. There's no fate but what we make for ourselves.''
I always tell friends whenever a movie involves time travel don’t think about it too much. Lol. Just enjoy the story.
As others have already stated, Terminator (and T2 to a lesser extent) are a closed loop. John was born to Kyle because he will always have been. There is always only ONE timeline in which the timetravel already takes place. The characters talk about no set future, but the world of Terminator (until the later films) has explicitly one future. An interesting idea, to be sure, but the closed loop is not a plot hole.
Let me add something to your Theory that makes it a bit more interesting. The John in the first Timeline is infact NOT the same John we get in the second and third. Different dad equals different child.... So the first timeline sets up everything. The Original John unknowlingly deleats himself from the next timeline by sending back Kyle and thereby creating the New John wich is way more suted to be the leader. And this John is named after the Original John. Making the original sort of imortal as even tho he was never born his ideals lives on in another man with his name shaped in his own image. I think that's the icing on this cake of a theory. And it's a solid theory honestly. Makes the movies alot better.
Cheers to this. I've always thought this too!
That's why that more " suted " fake John died
I like it. Unfortunately theories are all we can manage though, as James Cameron would have to be the one to fill the plotholes properly, but your theory makes perfect sense to me. In the second timeline, Kyle would likely interrupt Sarah meeting the original father of John Connor and fate would sort itself by making him the father instead. Or perhaps there is also the possibility that with the Terminator speeding up the process of Skynet's development, fate sorted itself then as well by making John's conception also happen earlier. Maybe in the original timeline John wasn't born until much later, just as Skynet was also not "born" until later.
But the first movie's message actually contradicts what John has Kyle tell Sarah. The entire movie is a predestination paradox--the future is set, and they're only going through the motions to make it happen. The Terminator always went back in time to kill Sarah, leaving its arm behind in the failed attempt which ultimately led to the creation of Skynet, while their actions caused Kyle to go back to stop them in that attempt and father John, their greatest nemesis, causing them to in the future send a Terminator back, ad infinitum. It was Terminator II that introduced the idea of changing the future as a viable option.
You deserved more than 5 likes for that succinct synopsis!
Yeah, the two John Connors is a big hole in this although viable, OG John Connor would have no idea that by sending KR back in time he'd be erasing himself so he'd still make that decision.
How about this, skynet sent a terminator to another timeline to create the alternate timeline so they have judgement day earlier than before
No. The Terminator Prime timeline has no John Connor. Judgement day occurs around 2004. In about 2030, give or take, the human resistnce is on the verge of being defeated. So they send Kyle Reese into the past to destroy Cyberdyne before they create Skynet. At some point he knocks-up Sarah Connor, but then goes on to try to destroy Cyberdyne. The Terminator nd Kyle Reese mutually destroy each other. Sarah Conner raises John with the information that she got from Kyle. John Conner has an advantage now, and he is on the verge of defeating SKynet. But this time Skynet sends a Terminator back, and John realizes that this is not the original timeline. Hence "the future is not set... etc". He sends Kyle Reese (again)...
" A lot of things just boil down to coincidence in this timeline". That's a real problem. My timeline has coincidence also. As far as I can tell, all of them do. But the goal is to reduce coincidence to the absolute minimum possible. I haven't given my complete timeline, but I think it does. I may post the rest of it, but right now I'm kinda drunk.
The real victim in all of this is Pugsly... I don't think anyone retrieved him from the apartment...
@@simonwoodhouse1258 :O Then skynet sent him back to an alternate time....
Don't worry Pugsly was adopted by Sanchez and lived out his life in Isthmus 🌍
@@kobrien4121 Good, I can sleep well tonight knowing Pugsly had a good life.
Poor Pugsly, someone probably made a belt out of him.
@@TaskerStreeteI feel like that would be a small belt. but I am unfamiliar with belt making lol
I disagree. Kyle Reese stated he was from "one possible future". The Terminator was sent from a possible future to our present; setting into motion events for that future. The destroyed terminator parts founded skynet tech. Kyle begot John. The whole point to the story is the paradox.
Well your right he did say that..BUT what if the "one possible future" is the one future can be present in...you can only be part of one but are able to affect others...seems plausible right? Like I can influence yours but only you can benefit from it than it changes when the ball is in your court which would validate also "the future is not set..." blag blah
It happening 3 times would make sense for the second movie due to the machines knowing the second one would fail again to send a new and improved Terminator. I'd love to see a movie where you follow John ending the war for good like what Salvation tried to do because we never actually see John end the war just the event leading up to the time machine.
John wasn't even a high enough up in salvation for the first 3 to make sense as to why they would send terminators to kill him/ prevent his birth to begin with
I think John Connor himself gets it right in _Terminator: Genisys_. A bootstrap paradox (or causal loop or spontaneous generation, depending on who you ask) is a paradox in which a future event caused a past event. It comes from the idiom "to pick yourself up by your bootstraps", which is a physically impossible task because movement requires action from an outside force. Kyle fathered John. John sent Kyle back to father him.
John is a bootstrap paradox. So is Skynet, for that matter. After all, Skynet was developed from the reverse engineering of the neural network processor and arm left behind by the first T-800. Skynet sent the T-800 back to be destroyed.
In _Terminator: Genisys_, John suggests to Sarah and Kyle that they are "outcasts of time". Now I realize that applying real-world physics to an action movie where real-world physics doesn't apply is a mostly futile endeavor, but if we're going to try to rationalize this, let's at least pretend to care to answer a few questions. Questions like: who is John's original father, and under what circumstances was Skynet originally designed? What happens to the universe and its entropy when energy (the mass of Kyle and the three terminators in the first two movies) is suddenly introduced to it? There are some meta questions that need answering too. What was the T-800 supposed to do afterward if it succeeded at assassinating Sarah? Why is Connor so singularly important, as if there isn't some chain of command that could accomplish the mission of defeating Skynet anyway?
The future isn't set -- but John and Skynet are. Their energies have been injected into the universe from the future. There is no future where they don't exist because they created themselves.
I want to see more. I love how you say Genesis is not even considered a movie. 10/10
Reeses mission should have been to stop skynet from becoming self aware and stop judgement day. Not save the mother of some resistance leader who is gonna beat skynet AFTER the Apocalyps.
And that was the plot Genesis
Well that's the Hitler paradox. If you go back in time and stop the thing from happening. Then there was no reason to go back in time to stop it, so you never went back in time to stop it.
@@brucechamberlin2545 what?
@@vascoernesto78 Google it. Hitler paradox or grandfather paradox
I honestly had this exact thought process for a while now, and now it's so cool knowing someone else has actually refined and formulated this into a full video!
If I may add one point, Sarah had a date with a random dude who she was supposed to go to the movies with, but he cancelled on her. Do you think it was because of the Sarah Connor murders on the news? Mabye he got spoked and cancelled the date. What I'm trying to say is, in the first timeline where there was no Kyle Reese or Terminator coming back through time it is very likely her date would have actually happened and quite possibly an accidental pregnancy, resulting in the first John Connor.
Interesting.
Chris Molaison very good observation ! I like the crap out of that idea. This is all cannon now. Every body take notes
Who knows that is first date maybe dude already knocked her up also remember that
Unfortunately even if you don't acknowledge Terminator 3, if time travel was possible and the machines invented the time machine specifically (key word) to kill John Connor, then the movie is scientifically sound and Judgement Day was always inevitable.
I don't recall in the first 2 movies if the machines invented time travell for any other reason than to kill John Connor, so if we consider it as a fact, then no matter how many attempts they would had made, they would had never succeeded into killing him because the time machine was invented because of him.
In other words: The whole reason the time machine exists is because John Connor exists, so any attempts of killing him in the past would had been unsuccessful.
Eventually skynet succeeded but wiped themselves from existance by killing lil john
@@pietervanderzwaan4295
I don’t acknowledge any Terminator movie after Salvation which was good addition to the franchise. They should had continued with Christian Bale’s portrayal of John and how he eventually defeated the machines in a few more final movies.
This is AWESOME! Great review.... love the effort mate, cheers.
I too had speculated that the original John Connor was not the son of Kyle Reece, but some other person who died before John was born, or was just not involved; which would explain why John's surname was Connor and not the father's.
Connor was his mother's lastname. He wouldn't be genetically the same person if he had a different father.
So?
@@QuakerJT So I don't think he had a different father as there's no indication there 2 different John Connors.
@@Tasha9315There's no indication that there's not, either.
@@QuakerJT Yeah, but would it make sense? It just seems odd that there are 2 genetically different Johns and they both have the same destiny while the movie never mentions the Johns are different.
Lol. I like how you said he could be in the military OR the air force.
Right? Couldn't tell if he was intentionally giving the airforce a jab.
The Vulcan Science Academy has determined that time travel is impossible.
Key Skywalker but just look in front of your eyes! Isn’t this enough evidence for you?!?
Craig Hobbs 😂🖖🏽
What? Are you out of your Vulcan mind???
Legion Of SnowBros “As you are so fond of observing Doctor, I am not human.”
That's why it's called Science Fiction
I think John's original father would be Morsky, and the arrival of Kyle and the Phonebook Killer in 1984 caused some butterfly effect chain of events that led Morsky to cancel the date.
That's not how the bufferfly effect works though.
@@LoveToSpootch why not? Let's say the T800 stealing a car, pushing the bearded guy out of the phone, killing the gun salesman or just driving through a certain street at a certain time where nobody would otherwise leads to a chain of events that could end up causing some situation Morsky "can't get out of" and forces him to call off the date.
@@bluebirdsigma it's possible
@@LoveToSpootch That's exactly how it works lol
My theory is he always last minute cancelled on her, and when she goes out by herself (leaving Matt and Ginger behind) meets someone else instead, maybe someone with a military background, and they end up together, conceive John and he learns military stuff from his father in that timeline.
I think you forgot to mention in the second timeline there is no terminator 2, terminator 2 only happens in the last timeline, that's where it ends. (ignoring of course terminator 3 and sequels)
My theory is also that there are at least three timelines but the original timeline had no John. Reese was sent back for some other purpose, meeting and falling in love with Sarah and giving birth to John which creates the timeline T1 Reese came from.
I was thinking the same thing pretty much the whole vid during/after the first timeline.
That can only work if Skynet invented time travel for another purpose. As we know it they made it as a failsafe to defeat John at an earlier point if they were losing in the future. If John never existed in a timeline then it would have to be someone else leading the victory that requires a terminator to be sent back. That would make it hard to involve Sarah randomly into all this.
If Skynet invented time travel in the original timeline all it would take is Kyle's mission putting him in LA or wherever Sarah went after college.
Or perhaps it wasn't Skynet trying to change history in that timeline. There was a novel Trilogy released between T2 and T3, the John Connor Chronicles. The trilogy focused on three timelines one of which was the future created by the events of T2. In that future Judgment Day happened much later long after Sarah and John were both dead. The Resistance determined that the war was a lost cause so they sent a team to try and create a future where Judgment Day never happened while Skynet was trying to preserve the future by sending a Terminator. Maybe something similar happened in the original timeline.
There is only one timeline. Kyle Reese coming back in time leads to the birth of John Connor. The T-800 coming back in time leads to the creation of SkyNet. It is a "Bootstrap Paradox".
But then this timeline would be unchangeable but as we know: The future is not set in stone.
@@martinm.1967 the future is set in stone tho, to be in 1984 and to have a time traveling robot murder you, the future would be happened
I want to see a Terminator Western where Skynet go back in time to kill the great grandfather of Sarah, "Sean O'Connor" to make sure the whole family never get born. ...of course there is a Doc Brown cameo.
I have had a similar theory rolling around in my head since I was a kid but could never articulate it as well as you. Good job!
Nice video. It's a good theory. I like the three timeline aspect. I would like to offer an alternative set.
Timeline 1: No John Connor. This timeline has the war bringing the planet close to the brink of destruction. With no unified leadership all the countries use their WDM arsenals at the same time. To avoid this, Skynet send a bot back to jumpstart its creation. Kyle Reese is sent to stop that.
Timeline 2: Enter John Connor. When Reese is sent back he still meets Sarah in the process of trying to stop the bot (not necessarily a terminator as it isn't a combat mission), tells Sarah the fate of the world and stops the bot while dying. This spurs her to raising John to be leader not only to stop the machines but to stop us from destroying it. Humanity fairs much better with John's leadership causing him to be targeted for termination so they still create the time machine and Reese is still sent back. This timeline has his mission to protecting Sarah.
Timeline 3: Terminator.... the movie
That's just what was inspired watching your video. It helps me to explain a more consistent John Connor in my head.
How was the baby John Connor produced in the very first timeline? He is the product of Sarah and Reese, not Sarah and some random dude. If a random dude was the father instead of Reese, then Sarah's kid would not be THE John Connor that leads the resistance in the future, he's a different person with different DNA whether his name is John Connor or John [Random Dude's Last Name].
You right It would be a different person with the same name.
The original John Conner is not the 2nd and 3rd Johns. That original John kind of forced or at least guided any alternate John Conners into his overall role by what he told Kyle through the 2nd and 3rd iterations. It's worth noting that those 2nd and 3rd iterations would ALSO be entirely different people because the moment of conception would have changed slightly given butterfly effects. But their destiny was clothes pinned. Even the child's name was predetermined. Sarah would assume the boy was destined to be who she was told he would be.
It would have been far less ambiguous if the 3rd timeline's John had been a girl because, as mentioned, that exact moment of conception would most likely have changed slightly, resulting in a different genetic mix.
Would Sarah have then thought she needed another child or would she say fuck it, and raises her daughter (Jane?) to be a proper badass resistance leader. T2 for the woke generation?
That could be why all the adult John Connor's look different. Different fathers.
@@KaizanBall Good points. I think you just started writing the next Terminator script with Jane Connor as a badass Terminator killer.
I have to admit I’ve thought about this kind of thing before but never went THIS deep into the whole premise, and I really enjoyed your video mapping it out like that.
Going to definitely subscribe bro!
Wrong: both movies do not end on "the future is not set".
Only the second one.
T1 is a closed loop.
MarCuseusFX Correct. It’s the whole chicken and egg concept. It’s quite the mind bender. Skynet inadvertently is responsible for the creation of itself, and John Connor. It’s fate. Brilliant stuff. But then this concept is abandoned for the sequel.
@@me4067 Actually, James Cameron intended this to be in the original film. In the deleted scenes, Sarah and Kyle decide to destroy the cyberdyne factory. That's why they start building pipe bombs and head there at the end of the movie. It wasn't his decision to cut those scenes out, which is why he revisited them in T2. He has never been given rights for a directors cut of the first film. Have you seen the ending of the directors cut of T2? They stop Judgement Day, it's clear cut.
Uncle Fester Yeah I’ve seen the alternate ending of T2, that’s the real ending of the series for me personally. And even in James Cameron’s own words, T2 is the where the story ends. But even if those scenes were in the final cut, it still doesn’t change the ending of T1. That would remain the same. The T-800 ultimately thwarted their plan to destroy Cyberdyne. So it would still be predestination through a time loop. It wasn’t until James Cameron decided to make a sequel that he used the deleted sub plot from T1 to create the story for T2. In which, the theme of the story changed.
Yeah the deleted scenes in particular spell it out, especially when they reveal the Factory with the Crushing Press is Cyberdyne and the guys are picking up the CPU to take to the R&D lab. Wish they had kept all of these in tbh
Kyle Reese is not the original father. Kyle Reese and the Terminator created a ripple effect in the timeline.
Huh
Just like the ripple i did in your mom tho
My theory has always been that the Terminator and Kyle Reese were trying to kill/protect the wrong Sarah Conner.
and just to be safe, Kyle knocked up all 20 Sarah Connors in the phone book
I'm pretty sure that Sarah Connor who looked like she was probably close to menopause...that was the original - but the goal posts were moved on the poor terminator, because "You don't mess with time".
I like how they keep showing uncle or cousin Enrique as the possible "another" father
Father in one timeline, cucked and becomes an uncle in the next XD
They?
I love it. I thought I was the only one who thought this horror/ sci-fi/ action movie was a Love story in disguise.
Add Skynet to your theory, because Skynet is “born” the moment Sarah destroys the Terminator in that Factory, which happens to be Datadyne.
shortbare so that the time travel and loop thing in the Terminator can be explained. The only common elements in the future are Skynet and John Connor’s existence. Which means that Skynet, in order to exist earlier, has to send a Terminator to the past and have it “fail” its mission
So basically in every extra timeline both Skynet and the resistance evolve :-)
I always liked the theory that Reese was never John's father to begin with, once the Terminator was sent back John knew he was screwed and essentially had to choose someone to be a different John Conner's father to insure the destruction of skynet. He chose his best soldier who could prep Sarah and in turn prep the new version of John in what the future would look like thus insuring his success.
I think the reason he said the future is not set is because they gained knowledge that changing the past does not change the future, but cuts off the link from the past to THAT future. He sent back Kyle because he thought sending him back would make a better result than their first attempt.
I always felt there were multiple timelines with the first film. Meaning it always seemed to me the events of the first film had already happened and that by the time we see it in the film it is just on repeat. Same with T2 because Kyle talks about John showing them how to smash the terminators into junk. How would John know if he hadn't already been around a Terminator before like in T2. Also the Terminator tells young John that his older self reprogrammed the Terminator to be his protector. If you go by the deleted scene in T2 where they take out the CPU chip to reset the switch. John learned about the Terminator in doing so. So I think T1 and T2 are already in a time loop by the time we see it.