Enjoyed much! I worked for Apple dealers for 9 years. 88 to 97. Back when all the 68000, 20,30 etc Macs came out. There are TONS of great games for these old macs and it’s great to see people keeping them alive!
We used to play multiplayer Spectre at work. Many, many hours of productivity were lost. Then we discovered Unreal Tournament. That pretty much killed 3rd Shift completely.
Awesome to see it up and running well! Always great to see these old machines saved. There's a world of weird and interesting software of classic Mac OS, great fun. I fully approve of a Classic II LAN party!
Thank you for the safety crt tips. I remember for the longest time no one would ever tell you how. They always just said if you dont know you shouldnt be asking. Well wtf I've been having people tell me that for 20 years, not that I ever tried to get into crt repair, but I always saw this nugget of wisdom, to never tell.
Oh man, I played a lot of Spectre back in the day. In college, the dorm where I was staying at was comprised of mostly EE and CS majors, so naturally we decided to do the completely geeky (and probably totally against regulations) thing of wiring up all of our Macs together (a lot of us were Mac users) into a LocalTalk network. (This was way, way, WAY before networking or connectivity of any kind was commonly available in dorms.) Yes, we actually crawled up above the ceiling tiles (the dorm had drop tile ceilings, where there was a secondary "ceiling" hung below the "real" ceiling, and there was a small crawlspace between the two that you could go in) so that we could drop network cables into peoples' rooms. We even ran a cable out of one of the guys' windows and down the side of the building so that we could network in the 1st floor as well (we were on the 3rd floor.) It was awesome, and many games of NetTrek and Spectre were played, as well as Spaceward Ho! and probably a few other network games whose names I've forgotten. Good times, good times. (and yeah, as you could probably guess, not a whole lot of studying got done... oof)
If you do this again I suggest using a lot more alcohol. Really get in there and flush things out. Being stingy runs the risk of just thinning out and spreading around the nasty stuff.
Late reply, agree with Do R/C. Well done on the repair, Ak, you did a good job. But there were many shots of the mobo post-repair where there was clearly still gunk present in places. A vintage computer like this deserves a thorough cleaning job!
I recapped my LC III with no audio a while back and the audio also started working after I recapped it, so I think one of the caps that goes bad keeps the audio chip from functioning
Hi. Thanks for taking the time and sharing your experience. Some notes: With that toothbrush you are just spreading the dirty soup. It is not absorbent and the mobo is flat on your table. Once the alcohol evaporates it will leave behind the spreaded residues. I would inclinate more than 45 degrees and secure the mobo to allow the dirty alcohol to flush out of the board. Put some paper towels underneat, you will see how they get pretty dirty. I use an empty windex bottle to spray plenty alcohol. Thanks again for sharing.
This is very interesting. I've been doing electronics since 1964, and watched the whole PC thing happen. I used to repair power supplies on early Macs similar to these. There was a problem with power diodes shorting in early Mac +'s . I still keep a bunch of Mac II si's going as I used them to sequence midi music compositions since the 1980's, and now have to figure out a way to transfer 1000's of files. I was not aware that those surface Mount Caps were Tantalum,.. we used to call small surface mount Caps Monolithic ,...Tantalum caps have been around since at least the early 1960's using foils made from the element tantalum, which was extremely expensive, back then, because it was mostly mined in USSR, and somewhat difficult to purify. Aluminum electrolytics have been around since the 1930's,... but there has been a lot of progress made since the early ones. I'd like to see someone come up with a way to replace the old hard Drives with a solid state memory or thumb drive!
Looking at this video again 6 years later, having cleaned more motherboards and replaced more caps, both electrolytic & tantalum,... now noticing that this board on this video didn't really get cleaned off that well. Nowadays, I get the major leaks off with IsoProp and Q tips 1st. then bath the whole thing in a pyrex baking tin with blue "window cleaner", and then again with more alcohol. the board should be really clean if You want things to last. Also may need to put more solder mask over traces that have corroded mask, and are under where the caps will be replaced.
I think you would greatly help yourself if you used either a rosin-core solder or additional flux on the boards. I just figured that some of the joints looked rather dry and the solder was also "pulling strings" at times. Also, you can safely use more alcohol for potentially better cleaning results.
I use Kester 63/37 that does have a rosin-core. I looked over the solder before putting it back in the case and to touched up anything that may have needed it but it was mostly fine. I didn't go back and clean the flux off though. I could have but I was trying to get it done quickly.
Looks like the iron is too hot. Also, too much solder. Still look like ok joints though, at least he doesn't agonize over every solder for 30 seconds until the part is probably thermally degraded like most soldering I see on UA-cam.
A flat or missing PRAM battery can and will indeed keep some Mac models from booting and back in the day even some logic boards were replaced because of that (remember reading about that in a mid-90s magazine). The easiest fix is a reset (Cmd-Ctrl-On/Off keys) after a few minutes on mains power. Oddly enough not all specimens of the same model are affected the same way by this but IF you get a black screen but the hard drive activity try that. No startup chime and black screen as well as no signs of startup point towards memory issues, not all of them cause a Sad Mac. No sound but otherwise fine operation could indeed be the caps, as you found out after cleaning the board. I wish Apple hadn't used caps with a liquid electrolyte all over the place! I've got 10+ of these old things and almost all of them have leaky caps. Not looking forward to replacing all of them especially since I have no experience soldering SMD whatsoever!
Me too, on a bunch of old macs that need new caps. although they could have just used higher quality electrolytics, with higher temp rating and better electrolytics..
I still have the old Classic II in the attic. Still working but the internal battery died long ago so it couldn't keep the time. Brought it new in 1992 and only stopped using it in 2000 when my brother returned from a High School Field Trip and mentioned that he saw my computer in a museum.
After desoldering the caps and cleaning with alcohol, running the board through the dishwasher helps get rid of ALL the residual electrolyte you can't see. Flux is also a big help when soldering the new caps on.
rwdplz1 Please don't ever clean PCBs in a dishwasher, or using normal tapwater. :o There seems to be a new trend of this advice (and videos) on UA-cam recently, and it's a bad idea if you really want your retro machines and other devices to last for many more years to come. They do clean PCBs using "water" in the factories, but in the few places I've worked (telecoms / PCB assembly), they ONLY used demineralized / deionized water. Tap water has lots of minerals / salts, and other impurities in, like aluminum, and fluoride. They not only make it conductive, but can leave trace amounts on the PCB, which can accelerate corrosion over the years. The water can get trapped underneath ICs and other components, even if you leave the board to dry over a few days. If you do use water, please use distilled / demineralized water, or better yet - just use Isopropanol. It's not expensive nowadays.
@@TechTangents great ..thanks , so I suppose you will set up other websites for other kinds of Mac ? or also SE and Plus material will land under the same page?
Great recap! When I did my Classic, I ordered a CAP kit, which worked great, but it was all electrolytic replacements. Not a huge deal, just means I'll have to do it again in another 30 years. ;-) As for the sound, yeah that is a known huge flag with these 90s Mac. Sound is out (or squealing on some of them), probably your CAPs... :-)
I've had 2 Tantalum capacitor failures in old computers. One failure was 10 years ago in a 10MHz 286, the ISA riser card had 1 or more shorted caps and this prevented the PS from turning on. The second was a pyrotechnic show on a Compaq Portable III computer just a couple weeks ago. The cap exploded, rebooted the computer, then the computer acted normally. So, while electrolytic capacitors are the bogeymen, Tantalum caps are also prone to short circuit failures. The polymer caps are regarded as the best available currently, as long as they come from a reputable manufacturer. I'm assuming Compaq used reputable component sources, after all this stuff was made in USA and retailed for THOUSANDS!
Great video, thank you! I'm trying to gear up to do the same thing to my Classic II... but I'm having trouble picking out capacitors. I understand specifying voltage and capacitance, but how about size and packaging? What's the best way to make sure I'm ordering the right tantalum capacitors?
Would be nice if you had listed the brand and specs of the capacitors you used. Also, a smaller soldering iron tip would have been cleaner. The soldering mask got burnt up pretty bad in several spots.
I know it's a very old video, but in general, when cleaning up leaky caps, always wash with white vinegar to neutralize the effects of the electrolyte, then wash off with isopropyl alcohol. You left a lot of corrosion there, notably on the bottom of the board. I would have let the board sit into a white vinegar solution for a while. Also, clean the pads with a wick before soldering on the new caps. That creates nicer and stronger joints if you don't leave any of the electrolyte attacked solder on there at all.
Can you use a Classic II MB in a Mac Classic? My Classic MB is dead but got my fan going and HD to spin in Classic with Classic II MB but no beep and no display.
I would always use solder wick to remove the last of the solder from pads and then clean the board with isopropyl alcohol/isopropanol. A thinner tip on the soldering iron and using lead-based solder will make this go faster.
Excellent work! There's a lot of interesting stuff for low-mid-end System 7 machines. I remember my Mac Performa 636cd came bundled with Spectre Challenger (cut-down version without netplay) and it was a blast! I seem to recall that version let you tweak friction so you could just glide around. Now you just need to load up After Dark and you'll be good to go. :)
I think I'm liking your videos a lot more than Druaga's. While at one point, the chill vibe and generally interesting depth in his videos was enjoyable, he definitely doesn't do the research he should sometimes. You, however, are technically minded in a way that I think gives a very EEVBlog-type perspective without the Australian wit. You're doing really good work, and very interesting topics. Keep the good work up, my dude.
The leaked electrolyte should be cleaned with vinegar, not alcohol... good old vinegar will neutralize the leaked fluid, alcohol won't really stop the corrosion going on.
That I'm not sure about. If I were to speculate, I would guess that it's due to the way that they are manufactured. Some internal process could make the anode more important. It could also be from a historical reason. Tantalums used to come in three legged packages with the positive in the center and negative on the outer two. This way they would not need to be marked for polarity( electronics.stackexchange.com/a/29858/94031 ). As all parts shrank though and assembly was automated this would have been pointless. So they may have chosen to mark the anode side on new replacements because it would technically be more significant having previously only had one pin instead of two.
Generally speaking electrolytic capacitors have higher resistance which affects its charge/discharge curve. Large caps are usually not very critical. However you probably can't replace a ceramic cap with a equivelant electrolytic.
I have a Mac Classic but I also have another MB that looks exactly like your Mac Classic II MB. I have no clue how I got it cause I only have the Mac Classic case. Do you know how I can tell what MB it is and if it is a Classic II MB could I try it in my Classic case?
After researching a bit I do have a Classic II MB. Again I have no clue how I got it and the board does not look great but hope to clean it up this weekend.
16:07 Bit late... But yeah, these old Macs sometimes need the PRAM battery to boot. I'm not sure exactly why they hang without it, though, as it should still be able to initialize all the hardware without it. The fact they tend to hang before you have an image on the screen I always found strange, because the primary thing that should be needed from PRAM at boot time is the location of the boot disk and (I think) system directory. By the way, always remember this site if you're messing around with old Macs: macintoshgarden.org/ Also, this: archive.info-mac.org/ 68k Macs (as well as early PPC Macs) actually had a decently large software library, contrary to popular belief, games included. Over time people have been coming together to archive it on a few sites throughout the net, and in the case of Info-Mac specifically, that one's actually been around since the 90s. I've been trying to get my hands on a Quadra workstation tower again, and if possible, a PPC accelerator card for it. That's where the best 68k Macintosh experience exists, if you ask me. Certain PPC Macs are good for that too, as the PPC version of the system software actually had a 68k emulator built into it. But uh... No FPU support.
Spectre also got a later release called Spectre VR. I can't remember any differences though. Classic mac has got a few hidden gems. Most of my favorites were by Ambrosia software.
I don't know if things have changed in the past two-ish years since this video, but by all means go ahead and slap some flux on those solder joints where you're not applying fresh solder. Reason being the joints will look prettier and handle much better with flux applied. When you're applying fresh solder, I'm sure you're plenty aware that the wire (usually) contains flux of its own. Nice videos in any case. :)
But that was 4 volts would never work! Anyway lots of variety of parts now available from China. When recapping use higher quality, higher voltage (slightly) and hi temp 106 degrees.
My mac had the same problem, showing vertical lines. I cleaned the board and replaced the electrolytic capacitors but it still gave the same problem. It turned out the crystal oscillator of the egret chip (U10) was not running. The leaky capacitors had somehow eaten away the connection between pin 3 of U10 and one pin of the crystal. You can measure this with an ohm meter. Between pin3 of U10 and the crystal you should measure 0 ohms, between pin4 of U10 and the crystal 33kOhm. After I soldered in a wire to fix this the computer worked again. Maybe worth checking!
wow... Spectre... shit I haven't played that in a Dog's Age... space is shoot, stationary dots are flags, moving dots are enemies... squares are ammo and the VERY RARE CIRCLES are grenades (which are totally OP)... spectre is fun!
I used to play the DOS version of Spectre. I also play the Mac version on a colour Mac Performa, so yes, the game does support colour. Back when I used to play the game regularly I had a love hate relationship with it. Now I really want to legitimately buy the DOS version.
For cleaning corrosion off the legs of the chips, simply douse the legs in some good flux, then apply an iron. The flux will help remove the corrosion, without adding blobs of solder where they don't need to be. Also, you might want to pick up some contact cleaner for the PCB instead of straight IPA, the contact cleaner should do a better job at removing the residue and cleaning the corrosive products.
Congrats for the choice by the way, just so I don''t only bring up bad things... I always recap classic macs with only tantalums on the MLB. You might also want to recap the analogue board too, not with tantalums of course :)
I suspect you were looking at higher voltage tantalums when you felt they were too expensive. Its the voltage rating more than the capacitance that drives the price on them, unlike with aluminum polymers.
First computer was a Mac Plus 1MB... Had that thing fully loaded... SCSI External HDD @ 20MB, two external 1.44MB FDD, Image Writer I then later a II... Top mounted carry handle area exhaust fan option... And every software title to have ever existed for it. It was made when I was born, so I obtained it all at around the age 8 or 9... when it was 8 or 9, via my dad as a gift to foster some of my interests... and man did it. I hate apple today and all, but certainly have an affinity for their older existence... when they actually did some innovating and worth while things. But I digress... I miss this... this is essentially the same thing with an internal drive. I want this all over again. Oh, and to play it in color, just get a Mac Color Classic... same thing you have... same thing as the Mac Plus mostly... but in color. Man, I remember that last game specifically, as I'd source those things off of much never LC series Mac's at school, hoping they'd survive the day on floppy until I'd get home, where I'd make them run on the Plus. Same ecosystem, but often times just ensuring you were running the proper system and finder version, etc. It was a great learning experience for sure, and a really fun time.
@@slightlyevolved Okay.... and from a software standpoint, functionality, and actual performance wise? I've used them all, I already know the answer... But would you actually attempt to say, and have someone believe, that any of those machines felt any different than any other when it came to core usage? I'd say no. I'd say an LC III felt just about the same running all the same software and games as a Mac Plus did. There may be SOME rose colored nostalgia glasses there, but more or less I imagine it realistically was awful close. I mean, the only real difference between the 68000 vs the 68020 was the memory address table, going form 16/24 (gen dependent) to 32bit. Speed-wise, by 1984 the 68000 was already in the same punching class Mhz wise. So long as you had adequate memory for the application, it would run identically.
Higher voltage tantalums are indeed more expensive. The example in this video only showed a 4V one. Even for 3.3V electronics, I wouldn't use anything lower than a 6V.
I've seen so many of these videos now on replacing caps, And no one seems to agree on what SMD caps are actually made of. I've heard of them referred to as the new tantalums, and some people saying never use tantalums for anything especially in power supplies (which is what they are doing on the motherboard) (keeping switching noise and clook noise from fouling the logic flow.
When you say "clean the board off again" what you really mean is "dissolve all the electrolytic fluid in a solvent and then smear it all over the board in a thin layer using a brush".
Yeah, I'm trying to write music to use in the background when I'm not working on videos. But it's not one of my strong suits. I want to avoid using licensed content of any kind to keep my distribution rights for my videos as simple as possible. So I'm not going to use any of the free music services.
Spectre is one of the best games for the classic Macintosh, developed in 1990 by Peninsula Gameworks and published in 1991 by Velocity Development. This was one of my favs on the SE 30, along with bert, simcity, sim ant and apache :) also you should be able to load realpc 1x and have dos (3-5) x286 support. another little tibit, the system runs music using sound app via sys 7 sound format, i used to have a large library on my mac before the rise of mp3 :) oh ya one last thing , use adobe pdf print to save work and the mac and print on a newer machine . Plus Mac web and hotline are great tools for basic web / file transfer :) there is quite a few tricks to make this machine both productive and useful even in 2019.
Design choices like that are almost always about cost. Tantalums were more expensive then so if they didn't need to use them they could save a few cents with the aluminum electrolytics. There are some tantalums on the board, mostly on the back where they didn't have the vertical clearance for the aluminum electrolytics.
Tantalum caps appeared in 1993, one year after the Mac Classic stopped being sold. Aluminum electrolytic caps came in 83, but only started seeing use in 95. PC's like the Mac Classic are too slow in terms of latency and clock speed for them to be prone to issues causef by ripples, which would require better quality caps.
Tentalum capacitors are quite reliable but short when they fail, frying some other components as well. And when the fried component is a dedicated integrated circuit that's not an easy repair anymore. You might say, if an electrolytic cap leaks all over the board and eats the circuit, it's not an easy repair either.
Recomiendo echar librilimpio o spray limpia contactos debajo de los chips debido a que el ácido se acumula debajo de ellos y no se limpian bien con el cepillo de dientes. Otra opción es echar alcohol y soplar con una pistola de aire o el compresor para eliminar el ácido que queda debajo de los chips.
The speaker most probably started working because you cleaned and soldered that chip leg back... I'm not sure about the Classic II, but you may have just reconnected the audio amplifier... it looked like it at least :)
I just bought a Mac Classic and, of course, it has leaking capacitors... I'd like to replace them myself but have no soldering experience. Is it stupid to even try? In defence of my naive question, you make it look very straightforward and it makes me want to give it a go myself :)
It's not something that takes years of practice to do. I'd say if you took a PCB out of another device that is trash and practiced removing capacitors on that you could start to get the hang of it. There are two other strategies for removing these kinds of caps other than what I've shown here. One where you grab the cap with pliers and rotate it in place so the pins snap off internally. And another where you use side cutters to cut away as much other cap as possible. I prefer the method I used here because the other two seem unnecessarily destructive to me. But it would be worth you looking up "removing SMD caps" to see what would be best for you. Putting the new ones on is a breeze as long as you clean the solder off and tin one of the pads.
For the battery. It might not start again if you leave it alone long enough without a battery in... I would suggest desoldering the battery holder and solder in a CR3020 holder and pop in a lithium cell in there.
Ugh. I probably need to do this to my IIfx and my SE, but I haven't worked up the courage to do it yet. Knowing my luck I'd end up making working computers no longer working LOL.
Inari Fensune Yep! I may go that route, as there is an electrical engineer business not too far away from me, but I should know how to do it myself ;) I just don't want to end up turning one of my vintage machines into a guinea pig from learning LOL. It's been so long since I have even touched a soldering iron. It's time I step my skills back up and get back in the groove LOL.
You can see how solder doesn't spread all over the pads, just makes a blob on the center like repulsed from the corners of the pads... there's still electrolyte on there and that's not good.
6 років тому+1
Now, children, do not forget that after cleaning the PCB with the toothbrush, to thoroughly wash it before using it to wash your teeth.
Not sure if it was the lighting or angle, but a lot of those pads still looked dirty before you soldered to them (the black crust). Spend more time with fiberglass pen and desolder braid to make them look new before soldering to them. Also. Gotta keep that solder tip a lot cleaner. Lastly, clean the pads after you solder down the caps (even if you use no clean solder)
I always wanted one of these on mac classics, i been wanting an old dead one. and putting modern pc guts into it. That's kind of my thing, i put modern PC hardware into retro stuff. like a PC inside of a dreamcast. I really like sleeper PCs.
I had the same experience with my Performa 200 (basically the same computer) and the sound not working until the Caps were replaced. Now I need to go find that Spectre game! Already upgraded to maximum of 10MB of Memory and replaced the HD with the SCSI2SD solution which cut down on the noise a ton. Check out "Carlsons Lab" (search UA-cam) for an easy way to remove those Capacitors. Thanks for the Video and keep them coming!
Enjoyed much! I worked for Apple dealers for 9 years. 88 to 97. Back when all the 68000, 20,30 etc Macs came out. There are TONS of great games for these old macs and it’s great to see people keeping them alive!
We used to play multiplayer Spectre at work. Many, many hours of productivity were lost. Then we discovered Unreal Tournament. That pretty much killed 3rd Shift completely.
Awesome to see it up and running well! Always great to see these old machines saved. There's a world of weird and interesting software of classic Mac OS, great fun.
I fully approve of a Classic II LAN party!
We can also play Bolo. So much fun.
There's something oddly satisfying about watching that sped up cleaning clip
Thank you for the safety crt tips. I remember for the longest time no one would ever tell you how. They always just said if you dont know you shouldnt be asking. Well wtf I've been having people tell me that for 20 years, not that I ever tried to get into crt repair, but I always saw this nugget of wisdom, to never tell.
So AkBKukU's Mac went from a Happy Mac to a Sad Mac to the Happiest Mac. A story for the ages I tell you
It's only a happy mac cause replacing those capacitors he turned it into a pc lol
Oh man, I played a lot of Spectre back in the day. In college, the dorm where I was staying at was comprised of mostly EE and CS majors, so naturally we decided to do the completely geeky (and probably totally against regulations) thing of wiring up all of our Macs together (a lot of us were Mac users) into a LocalTalk network. (This was way, way, WAY before networking or connectivity of any kind was commonly available in dorms.) Yes, we actually crawled up above the ceiling tiles (the dorm had drop tile ceilings, where there was a secondary "ceiling" hung below the "real" ceiling, and there was a small crawlspace between the two that you could go in) so that we could drop network cables into peoples' rooms. We even ran a cable out of one of the guys' windows and down the side of the building so that we could network in the 1st floor as well (we were on the 3rd floor.) It was awesome, and many games of NetTrek and Spectre were played, as well as Spaceward Ho! and probably a few other network games whose names I've forgotten. Good times, good times. (and yeah, as you could probably guess, not a whole lot of studying got done... oof)
If you do this again I suggest using a lot more alcohol. Really get in there and flush things out. Being stingy runs the risk of just thinning out and spreading around the nasty stuff.
Hm, bottle of tequila perhaps
Late reply, agree with Do R/C. Well done on the repair, Ak, you did a good job. But there were many shots of the mobo post-repair where there was clearly still gunk present in places. A vintage computer like this deserves a thorough cleaning job!
Agreed. More drunk computer repair videos please.
Also use some liquid flux & decrease the filler metal by 50%
Some flux won't hurt too. The C21 desoldering will haunt me in my nightmares.
Since I watched the original I have been waiting for this, Thanks Man
I recapped my LC III with no audio a while back and the audio also started working after I recapped it, so I think one of the caps that goes bad keeps the audio chip from functioning
Hi. Thanks for taking the time and sharing your experience. Some notes: With that toothbrush you are just spreading the dirty soup. It is not absorbent and the mobo is flat on your table. Once the alcohol evaporates it will leave behind the spreaded residues. I would inclinate more than 45 degrees and secure the mobo to allow the dirty alcohol to flush out of the board. Put some paper towels underneat, you will see how they get pretty dirty. I use an empty windex bottle to spray plenty alcohol. Thanks again for sharing.
... I just watched the original and suddenly this pops up. Today's a good day.
This is very interesting. I've been doing electronics since 1964, and watched the whole PC thing happen. I used to repair power supplies on early Macs similar to these. There was a problem with power diodes shorting in early Mac +'s . I still keep a bunch of Mac II si's going as I used them to sequence midi music compositions since the 1980's, and now have to figure out a way to transfer 1000's of files. I was not aware that those surface Mount Caps were Tantalum,.. we used to call small surface mount Caps Monolithic ,...Tantalum caps have been around since at least the early 1960's using foils made from the element tantalum, which was extremely expensive, back then, because it was mostly mined in USSR, and somewhat difficult to purify. Aluminum electrolytics have been around since the 1930's,... but there has been a lot of progress made since the early ones. I'd like to see someone come up with a way to replace the old hard Drives with a solid state memory or thumb drive!
Old comment, but the old SCSI drives can be replaced by SCSI2SD, google Inertial Computing if in the US.
@@SteveMaves Yeah, kinda old comment, now I have about 4 SD drives! that work in Old Macs.
Looking at this video again 6 years later, having cleaned more motherboards and replaced more caps, both electrolytic & tantalum,... now noticing that this board on this video didn't really get cleaned off that well. Nowadays, I get the major leaks off with IsoProp and Q tips 1st. then bath the whole thing in a pyrex baking tin with blue "window cleaner", and then again with more alcohol. the board should be really clean if You want things to last. Also may need to put more solder mask over traces that have corroded mask, and are under where the caps will be replaced.
I used to play Spectre on my 96 Power Mac. I didn't know it could have played in on my little Mac II or SE I had laying around when I was younger.
Perhaps add a parts list to the description?
Fantastic.. watching this in 2024.. I wish I had the both the skills and nerve to do this.
I think you would greatly help yourself if you used either a rosin-core solder or additional flux on the boards. I just figured that some of the joints looked rather dry and the solder was also "pulling strings" at times.
Also, you can safely use more alcohol for potentially better cleaning results.
I use Kester 63/37 that does have a rosin-core. I looked over the solder before putting it back in the case and to touched up anything that may have needed it but it was mostly fine.
I didn't go back and clean the flux off though. I could have but I was trying to get it done quickly.
Looks like the iron is too hot. Also, too much solder. Still look like ok joints though, at least he doesn't agonize over every solder for 30 seconds until the part is probably thermally degraded like most soldering I see on UA-cam.
@@nilz23 yeah i was going to say the iron is to hot and he needs to use more flux..
@@Mr_Meowingtons more flux is needed since the iron is too hot - the flux burns up before it can do any work.
"...The problem... it's a Mac... but!"
Priceless line.
A flat or missing PRAM battery can and will indeed keep some Mac models from booting and back in the day even some logic boards were replaced because of that (remember reading about that in a mid-90s magazine). The easiest fix is a reset (Cmd-Ctrl-On/Off keys) after a few minutes on mains power. Oddly enough not all specimens of the same model are affected the same way by this but IF you get a black screen but the hard drive activity try that. No startup chime and black screen as well as no signs of startup point towards memory issues, not all of them cause a Sad Mac. No sound but otherwise fine operation could indeed be the caps, as you found out after cleaning the board.
I wish Apple hadn't used caps with a liquid electrolyte all over the place! I've got 10+ of these old things and almost all of them have leaky caps. Not looking forward to replacing all of them especially since I have no experience soldering SMD whatsoever!
Me too, on a bunch of old macs that need new caps. although they could have just used higher quality electrolytics, with higher temp rating and better electrolytics..
Can we just appreciate the fact that we can still fix ancient tech with components that are practically unchanged and available today?
I still have the old Classic II in the attic. Still working but the internal battery died long ago so it couldn't keep the time. Brought it new in 1992 and only stopped using it in 2000 when my brother returned from a High School Field Trip and mentioned that he saw my computer in a museum.
After desoldering the caps and cleaning with alcohol, running the board through the dishwasher helps get rid of ALL the residual electrolyte you can't see. Flux is also a big help when soldering the new caps on.
rwdplz1
Please don't ever clean PCBs in a dishwasher, or using normal tapwater. :o
There seems to be a new trend of this advice (and videos) on UA-cam recently, and it's a bad idea if you really want your retro machines and other devices to last for many more years to come.
They do clean PCBs using "water" in the factories, but in the few places I've worked (telecoms / PCB assembly), they ONLY used demineralized / deionized water.
Tap water has lots of minerals / salts, and other impurities in, like aluminum, and fluoride. They not only make it conductive, but can leave trace amounts on the PCB, which can accelerate corrosion over the years.
The water can get trapped underneath ICs and other components, even if you leave the board to dry over a few days.
If you do use water, please use distilled / demineralized water, or better yet - just use Isopropanol. It's not expensive nowadays.
I just realized that AkBKukU sounds like Big Bird! Awesome channel btw!
great job.. could you by any chance share the list of capacitors you used for recapping ? thx
I actually just launched a website for doing just that and you can find it here! caps.wiki/wiki/Mac_Classic_II
@@TechTangents great ..thanks , so I suppose you will set up other websites for other kinds of Mac ? or also SE and Plus material will land under the same page?
Great recap! When I did my Classic, I ordered a CAP kit, which worked great, but it was all electrolytic replacements. Not a huge deal, just means I'll have to do it again in another 30 years. ;-) As for the sound, yeah that is a known huge flag with these 90s Mac. Sound is out (or squealing on some of them), probably your CAPs... :-)
I've had 2 Tantalum capacitor failures in old computers. One failure was 10 years ago in a 10MHz 286, the ISA riser card had 1 or more shorted caps and this prevented the PS from turning on. The second was a pyrotechnic show on a Compaq Portable III computer just a couple weeks ago. The cap exploded, rebooted the computer, then the computer acted normally. So, while electrolytic capacitors are the bogeymen, Tantalum caps are also prone to short circuit failures. The polymer caps are regarded as the best available currently, as long as they come from a reputable manufacturer. I'm assuming Compaq used reputable component sources, after all this stuff was made in USA and retailed for THOUSANDS!
Great video, thank you! I'm trying to gear up to do the same thing to my Classic II... but I'm having trouble picking out capacitors. I understand specifying voltage and capacitance, but how about size and packaging? What's the best way to make sure I'm ordering the right tantalum capacitors?
Would be nice if you had listed the brand and specs of the capacitors you used.
Also, a smaller soldering iron tip would have been cleaner. The soldering mask got burnt up pretty bad in several spots.
I know it's a very old video, but in general, when cleaning up leaky caps, always wash with white vinegar to neutralize the effects of the electrolyte, then wash off with isopropyl alcohol. You left a lot of corrosion there, notably on the bottom of the board. I would have let the board sit into a white vinegar solution for a while. Also, clean the pads with a wick before soldering on the new caps. That creates nicer and stronger joints if you don't leave any of the electrolyte attacked solder on there at all.
Can you use a Classic II MB in a Mac Classic? My Classic MB is dead but got my fan going and HD to spin in Classic with Classic II MB but no beep and no display.
I would always use solder wick to remove the last of the solder from pads and then clean the board with isopropyl alcohol/isopropanol.
A thinner tip on the soldering iron and using lead-based solder will make this go faster.
It's already a 1.5mm tip amzn.to/2u7rV7d and I use Kester 63/37.
Excellent work! There's a lot of interesting stuff for low-mid-end System 7 machines. I remember my Mac Performa 636cd came bundled with Spectre Challenger (cut-down version without netplay) and it was a blast! I seem to recall that version let you tweak friction so you could just glide around.
Now you just need to load up After Dark and you'll be good to go. :)
I loved Spectre way back in the day. I should get it and play it on my 98 machine again, I'd completely forgotten about it.
I think I'm liking your videos a lot more than Druaga's. While at one point, the chill vibe and generally interesting depth in his videos was enjoyable, he definitely doesn't do the research he should sometimes. You, however, are technically minded in a way that I think gives a very EEVBlog-type perspective without the Australian wit.
You're doing really good work, and very interesting topics. Keep the good work up, my dude.
TheUltimaXtreme I like Druaga's videos as this feel like a tutorial rather that an entertaining and edited struggle with older computers.
TheUltimaXtreme but he doesn't smoke weed
TNTgamer71 exactly
That's what his videos are: Trying out, not looking things up. That's literally the whole idea of his channel.
The leaked electrolyte should be cleaned with vinegar, not alcohol... good old vinegar will neutralize the leaked fluid, alcohol won't really stop the corrosion going on.
Do you use vinegar before or after alcohol? I’m guessing before
@@suprshin Before of course. Alcohol is meant to clean off the vinegar and what it has dissolved and reacted with :)
Amazing graphics for its time :)
I used to play this game all the time at school on the old color classics. Lots of red and black when Spectre is in color if my memory serves.
@@slightlyevolved Definitely, thx for memory jog!
FYI, the "Noise Reduction" filter in Audacity is excellent at removing sounds like that transformer buzz you mentioned.
Any good reason why the different kinds of cap put the stripe on different polarities? Strikes me as bad standard planning haha
That I'm not sure about. If I were to speculate, I would guess that it's due to the way that they are manufactured. Some internal process could make the anode more important.
It could also be from a historical reason. Tantalums used to come in three legged packages with the positive in the center and negative on the outer two. This way they would not need to be marked for polarity( electronics.stackexchange.com/a/29858/94031 ). As all parts shrank though and assembly was automated this would have been pointless. So they may have chosen to mark the anode side on new replacements because it would technically be more significant having previously only had one pin instead of two.
AkBKukU That makes sense. Thanks so much for the detailed response!
I read somewhere that different types of capacitors behave differently to each other even if they're the same capacity in some situations
Generally speaking electrolytic capacitors have higher resistance which affects its charge/discharge curve. Large caps are usually not very critical. However you probably can't replace a ceramic cap with a equivelant electrolytic.
@@TheMixedupstuff
Thanks 😅
I have a Mac Classic but I also have another MB that looks exactly like your Mac Classic II MB. I have no clue how I got it cause I only have the Mac Classic case. Do you know how I can tell what MB it is and if it is a Classic II MB could I try it in my Classic case?
After researching a bit I do have a Classic II MB. Again I have no clue how I got it and the board does not look great but hope to clean it up this weekend.
Can all electrolytic capacitors be replaced with tantalum?
16:07
Bit late... But yeah, these old Macs sometimes need the PRAM battery to boot. I'm not sure exactly why they hang without it, though, as it should still be able to initialize all the hardware without it. The fact they tend to hang before you have an image on the screen I always found strange, because the primary thing that should be needed from PRAM at boot time is the location of the boot disk and (I think) system directory.
By the way, always remember this site if you're messing around with old Macs: macintoshgarden.org/
Also, this: archive.info-mac.org/
68k Macs (as well as early PPC Macs) actually had a decently large software library, contrary to popular belief, games included. Over time people have been coming together to archive it on a few sites throughout the net, and in the case of Info-Mac specifically, that one's actually been around since the 90s.
I've been trying to get my hands on a Quadra workstation tower again, and if possible, a PPC accelerator card for it. That's where the best 68k Macintosh experience exists, if you ask me. Certain PPC Macs are good for that too, as the PPC version of the system software actually had a 68k emulator built into it. But uh... No FPU support.
Spectre also got a later release called Spectre VR. I can't remember any differences though. Classic mac has got a few hidden gems. Most of my favorites were by Ambrosia software.
Is the game in color if you have a color monitor? Makes me want to dust off my old macintosh, as I missed that game.
I don't know if things have changed in the past two-ish years since this video, but by all means go ahead and slap some flux on those solder joints where you're not applying fresh solder. Reason being the joints will look prettier and handle much better with flux applied. When you're applying fresh solder, I'm sure you're plenty aware that the wire (usually) contains flux of its own.
Nice videos in any case. :)
1:17 43 cents apiece... too rich for my blood.
But that was 4 volts would never work! Anyway lots of variety of parts now available from China. When recapping use higher quality, higher voltage (slightly) and hi temp 106 degrees.
im going to ReCap my Macintosh Color Classic tomorrow i hope it wil work.. nice video!
Spectre was a Battlezone-like game. I had it for the C=64.
My mac had the same problem, showing vertical lines. I cleaned the board and replaced the electrolytic capacitors but it still gave the same problem. It turned out the crystal oscillator of the egret chip (U10) was not running. The leaky capacitors had somehow eaten away the connection between pin 3 of U10 and one pin of the crystal. You can measure this with an ohm meter. Between pin3 of U10 and the crystal you should measure 0 ohms, between pin4 of U10 and the crystal 33kOhm. After I soldered in a wire to fix this the computer worked again. Maybe worth checking!
Do you have a list of caps thats needed? I got one and it needs caps
I miss playing Spectre, good times
wow... Spectre... shit I haven't played that in a Dog's Age... space is shoot, stationary dots are flags, moving dots are enemies... squares are ammo and the VERY RARE CIRCLES are grenades (which are totally OP)... spectre is fun!
I used to play the DOS version of Spectre. I also play the Mac version on a colour Mac Performa, so yes, the game does support colour. Back when I used to play the game regularly I had a love hate relationship with it. Now I really want to legitimately buy the DOS version.
I'm about to get a Macintosh Classic II, any advice?
The sound started working again because you repaired the solder joint on that one chip earlier in the video.
Nice montage 😁
For cleaning corrosion off the legs of the chips, simply douse the legs in some good flux, then apply an iron. The flux will help remove the corrosion, without adding blobs of solder where they don't need to be. Also, you might want to pick up some contact cleaner for the PCB instead of straight IPA, the contact cleaner should do a better job at removing the residue and cleaning the corrosive products.
Congrats for the choice by the way, just so I don''t only bring up bad things... I always recap classic macs with only tantalums on the MLB. You might also want to recap the analogue board too, not with tantalums of course :)
I suspect you were looking at higher voltage tantalums when you felt they were too expensive. Its the voltage rating more than the capacitance that drives the price on them, unlike with aluminum polymers.
First computer was a Mac Plus 1MB... Had that thing fully loaded... SCSI External HDD @ 20MB, two external 1.44MB FDD, Image Writer I then later a II... Top mounted carry handle area exhaust fan option... And every software title to have ever existed for it. It was made when I was born, so I obtained it all at around the age 8 or 9... when it was 8 or 9, via my dad as a gift to foster some of my interests... and man did it. I hate apple today and all, but certainly have an affinity for their older existence... when they actually did some innovating and worth while things. But I digress... I miss this... this is essentially the same thing with an internal drive. I want this all over again.
Oh, and to play it in color, just get a Mac Color Classic... same thing you have... same thing as the Mac Plus mostly... but in color.
Man, I remember that last game specifically, as I'd source those things off of much never LC series Mac's at school, hoping they'd survive the day on floppy until I'd get home, where I'd make them run on the Plus. Same ecosystem, but often times just ensuring you were running the proper system and finder version, etc. It was a great learning experience for sure, and a really fun time.
@@slightlyevolved Okay.... and from a software standpoint, functionality, and actual performance wise? I've used them all, I already know the answer... But would you actually attempt to say, and have someone believe, that any of those machines felt any different than any other when it came to core usage? I'd say no. I'd say an LC III felt just about the same running all the same software and games as a Mac Plus did. There may be SOME rose colored nostalgia glasses there, but more or less I imagine it realistically was awful close. I mean, the only real difference between the 68000 vs the 68020 was the memory address table, going form 16/24 (gen dependent) to 32bit. Speed-wise, by 1984 the 68000 was already in the same punching class Mhz wise. So long as you had adequate memory for the application, it would run identically.
Solder job doesn't look too bad from a distance.
Higher voltage tantalums are indeed more expensive. The example in this video only showed a 4V one. Even for 3.3V electronics, I wouldn't use anything lower than a 6V.
tantalum caps are just evil. I have seen far too many simply explode. I'd opt for the newer solid state caps that are used today in motherboards.
I've seen so many of these videos now on replacing caps, And no one seems to agree on what SMD caps are actually made of. I've heard of them referred to as the new tantalums, and some people saying never use tantalums for anything especially in power supplies (which is what they are doing on the motherboard) (keeping switching noise and clook noise from fouling the logic flow.
When you say "clean the board off again" what you really mean is "dissolve all the electrolytic fluid in a solvent and then smear it all over the board in a thin layer using a brush".
The only thing missing is music. Yet being how UA-cam is going. It is amazing you can even talk in a video without being flagged.
Yeah, I'm trying to write music to use in the background when I'm not working on videos. But it's not one of my strong suits. I want to avoid using licensed content of any kind to keep my distribution rights for my videos as simple as possible. So I'm not going to use any of the free music services.
Spectre is one of the best games for the classic Macintosh, developed in 1990 by Peninsula Gameworks and published in 1991 by Velocity Development. This was one of my favs on the SE 30, along with bert, simcity, sim ant and apache :) also you should be able to load realpc 1x and have dos (3-5) x286 support. another little tibit, the system runs music using sound app via sys 7 sound format, i used to have a large library on my mac before the rise of mp3 :) oh ya one last thing , use adobe pdf print to save work and the mac and print on a newer machine . Plus Mac web and hotline are great tools for basic web / file transfer :) there is quite a few tricks to make this machine both productive and useful even in 2019.
OH MY GOD. WE HAD A DEMO OF THAT VECTOR LINE TANK GAME ON A PERFORMA 5400! PLEASE TELL ME THAT IS AVAILABLE ONLINE SOMEWHERE!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectre_(video_game)
Was there a reason electrolytics were originally used if you could just use solid caps instead with no issues?
Design choices like that are almost always about cost. Tantalums were more expensive then so if they didn't need to use them they could save a few cents with the aluminum electrolytics. There are some tantalums on the board, mostly on the back where they didn't have the vertical clearance for the aluminum electrolytics.
AkBKukU Like he said, mostly cost, electrolytics are a hell-of-alot cheaper.
Tantalum caps appeared in 1993, one year after the Mac Classic stopped being sold. Aluminum electrolytic caps came in 83, but only started seeing use in 95. PC's like the Mac Classic are too slow in terms of latency and clock speed for them to be prone to issues causef by ripples, which would require better quality caps.
Tentalum capacitors are quite reliable but short when they fail, frying some other components as well. And when the fried component is a dedicated integrated circuit that's not an easy repair anymore. You might say, if an electrolytic cap leaks all over the board and eats the circuit, it's not an easy repair either.
Awesome fix
Tantrum capacitors for the win!
I've been recommended not to mix solders. If you replace a component you should wick up all old solder and then replace it with your stuff.
Used to play Spectre a lot on the plus and the LC as a kid. Good times.
I believe you could use grenades from level 10, consuming 10 ammo per shot.
Don't tantalum capacitors explode?
The old x caps on Computer psus explode but these smd caps probably won't in the next 20 or so years
Recomiendo echar librilimpio o spray limpia contactos debajo de los chips debido a que el ácido se acumula debajo de ellos y no se limpian bien con el cepillo de dientes. Otra opción es echar alcohol y soplar con una pistola de aire o el compresor para eliminar el ácido que queda debajo de los chips.
The speaker most probably started working because you cleaned and soldered that chip leg back... I'm not sure about the Classic II, but you may have just reconnected the audio amplifier... it looked like it at least :)
What wattage rating is your iron?
I just bought a Mac Classic and, of course, it has leaking capacitors... I'd like to replace them myself but have no soldering experience. Is it stupid to even try? In defence of my naive question, you make it look very straightforward and it makes me want to give it a go myself :)
It's not something that takes years of practice to do. I'd say if you took a PCB out of another device that is trash and practiced removing capacitors on that you could start to get the hang of it.
There are two other strategies for removing these kinds of caps other than what I've shown here. One where you grab the cap with pliers and rotate it in place so the pins snap off internally. And another where you use side cutters to cut away as much other cap as possible. I prefer the method I used here because the other two seem unnecessarily destructive to me. But it would be worth you looking up "removing SMD caps" to see what would be best for you.
Putting the new ones on is a breeze as long as you clean the solder off and tin one of the pads.
Amazing. A static safe tooth brush. Lol
For the battery. It might not start again if you leave it alone long enough without a battery in... I would suggest desoldering the battery holder and solder in a CR3020 holder and pop in a lithium cell in there.
i have one but it does not work
How can I repair my Satellite 1135-S155?
I wanted him to scrape off the conformal coating to check for corrosion/electrolyte on the copper traces.
Ugh. I probably need to do this to my IIfx and my SE, but I haven't worked up the courage to do it yet. Knowing my luck I'd end up making working computers no longer working LOL.
Inari Fensune Yep! I may go that route, as there is an electrical engineer business not too far away from me, but I should know how to do it myself ;) I just don't want to end up turning one of my vintage machines into a guinea pig from learning LOL. It's been so long since I have even touched a soldering iron. It's time I step my skills back up and get back in the groove LOL.
Inari Fensune Very true! :)
Inari Fensune Thanks, Inari!
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-AkBKukU 2018
AkBKuKu is hard to say
21:20 Sim city predicting year 2020
You should start wicking those pads when you do this.
You remind me of a Cody’s Lab of computer hardware.
You can see how solder doesn't spread all over the pads, just makes a blob on the center like repulsed from the corners of the pads... there's still electrolyte on there and that's not good.
Now, children, do not forget that after cleaning the PCB with the toothbrush, to thoroughly wash it before using it to wash your teeth.
Good, but I would have put more (and more) care on better cleaning before soldering news caps again. Cheers, M
Not sure if it was the lighting or angle, but a lot of those pads still looked dirty before you soldered to them (the black crust). Spend more time with fiberglass pen and desolder braid to make them look new before soldering to them. Also. Gotta keep that solder tip a lot cleaner. Lastly, clean the pads after you solder down the caps (even if you use no clean solder)
Simcity, LGR loves it, AkBKukU... has it for mac? idk lol, imma edit this when I have more info
you haven't edited this
Spectre was based an arcade game with the same graphics called Battlezone made by Atari
I suppose you got at least 50% more voltage rated for the tantalum capacitors...
I always wanted one of these on mac classics, i been wanting an old dead one. and putting modern pc guts into it. That's kind of my thing, i put modern PC hardware into retro stuff. like a PC inside of a dreamcast.
I really like sleeper PCs.
paint brushes work wellforbrushing to, i go back and forth from a tooth brush to a paint brush
"This looks Great!" I think you meant "This looks Gray!" :-)
I had the same experience with my Performa 200 (basically the same computer) and the sound not working until the Caps were replaced. Now I need to go find that Spectre game! Already upgraded to maximum of 10MB of Memory and replaced the HD with the SCSI2SD solution which cut down on the noise a ton. Check out "Carlsons Lab" (search UA-cam) for an easy way to remove those Capacitors. Thanks for the Video and keep them coming!
where can I get the SCSI2SD HD and how much space does it have?
You just diluted an evenly spreaded the capacitor acid on the board instead of washing it off. Maybe the dishwasher option wasn't that bad.