I think it's interesting that Conrad and Big S both have the gift of foresight, and they both know that they are going to die their entire life. The angel sacrifices himself for the emperor, and Conrad allows the assassin to behrad him as vindication for all of his beliefs. It's also interesting that they are both essentially each other's opposites but they both have the gift of foresight. I cannot believe that that is simply a coincidence.
This reminds me of the interaction between Batman and his evil counterpart Owlman in Crisis on Two Earths. Right before Batman sends Owlman to an alternate universe he says, "There is a difference between us. We both stared into the abyss. But when it looked back at us, you blinked."
I've been a Night lords and Curze fan ever since I started 40k o so long ago now. Yet, when I read this, and hearing it again now. I can't help but always feel deep down sanguineous was always right when talking to Curze. I have always believed if given more time between the two and some give and take, Curze Would have been forgiven in the eyes of his brother. Maybe still be traitor, sure, but more renegade than a chaos lackey. As Curze was never about the ruinous powers, nor some angsty child like one of his brothers. He felt betrayed and abused by his father and forced powers respectively. Love the commentary Wolf and the videos. Keep up the good work.
.... and yet, Sanguinius also marched to his own death, flushing Curze into space in a statsis pod. Something that might have turned the tide on Terra if a different choice was made.
Remember when Konrads parents got killed infont of him outside the movie theater, turning him into the nighthaunter. Then he met Guilimen for the first time and before he killed him Guilimen said *"Martha"* and curze realizes their mother's have the same name? Good times
Sanguinius was truly the best boi. Being this loyal to humanity despite knowing how much of an asshole E Money was is a true character defining moment of Sanguinius in HH
Personally, I agree with Sanguinius. The Emperor lied, and it turned out to be a mistake (understatement) but the intention was pure. Kurze’s main problem is that there is no moderation in his character. It’s all bad or it’s all good. And he never sees the good.
I don't know, it must be a flip of a coin imo. Russ places them in the same category of superiority for a reason and theres no need for Curze to boast meaninglessly. It would be close
@@shekel8245 yeah he has the charisma the Lion lack for leading his brothers as warmaster, even if Im not against El'Jonsson leadership, he is too much "keep your secrets secret" and rough. Also that s why he was regent of Imperium secundus, the angel was made to lead through the darkness.
J Robinson russ and angron are probably the best on unarmed combat. Sanguinius, Cruz are the best in armed combat, largely due to their foresight ability. And Horus a close second based on his pure martial and athletic prowess
"The scattering was intended but flawed". Perfectly described. It shaped the Primarchs in a way the Emperor never could but Tzeentch had his plans too. Perhaps the Emperor thought has was a match for him but actually wasn't.
Could be. He could have also have foreseen a possibility where each primarch overcame their planets flaws. Like in the Curze book when he catches a glimpse of a positive future. Except Angron. Poor Angron....
@@malb.4107 Angron's future was foreseen by the Eldar and they tried to kill him which only lead to his terrible fate coming true. I think that's the worst part.
It's a battle of speed and precogs, meaning they both stand a chance. This would normally be a case of first blood=kill, but if they're both fully armored and prepared to face each other, they're both fighting a long fast fight of death by 1000 cuts. So, the outcome is fairly undeterminable.
I hope he does to see his reaction to his brothers and the imperium at large plus he's my favourite primarch closely followed by the lion but khan is slowly gaining the second spot the more on reading and learning 😁
A friend and I had a discussion about this scene and pondered if Sanguinius and Curze are supposed to be stand ins for the audience and even some authors of black library on how they interpret the events of the Emperor.
Pretty clear Kurze is trying to persuade himself fate deprived him of a choice and of any responsibility. His own novel makes it clear it was all him, not ‘fate.’
Honestly, the one thing that makes everyone think that Sanguinius would win is his ability to fly. Pretty hard to hit a guy you can't reach. Jump packs aren't anywhere near as accurate, and they have fuel. Meanwhile, Sanguinius could just fly around shooting at you.
Y'know, Rho, I've never been a player of 40K but have absorbed the lore and artwork like a sponge. I'm also of a pretty high standard when painting the miniatures. Yours is one of the channels that's got me back into said painting, so I just wanna say thanks for the inspiration 😉🙂
I've always flip-floped between the emperor caring about his sons or him just seeing them as tools, as pawns in his his plan to protect humanity, and once their usefulness has finished do a thunder warrior job again. I'm my opinion the emperor doesn't or cannot see humanity as individuals, to him as long as the whole is functioning and somewhat moving in the same direction that's a win, and it doesn't matter what it costs him or humanity all that matters is that humanity is moving forward. Where the primarchs might change this outlook is the fact that they are 'his sons' from his DNA and they all have been engineered to mirror different aspects of him and that would have to bring out a fatherly pride of some kind of preternatural response, it's in our genetics we can't escape that.
I always found it curious how the traitors hate the emperor for lying but then they too depended on deception and lies to kill their brothers and have no problem with the choas "gods" lying to them...
I know right? Sure, The Emperor is a liar. His greatest son just admitted it and even said it hurt him to realize that. But there is a MAJOR difference between a parent who tries to keep things from you because their afraid such knowledge could either hurt them or they are not ready for it yet, and the sociopath Warp-Parasite quartet that deliberately omit details and obscure the truth to get you to do horrible things to feed their never ending addiction.
That a bit too on The nose for me as symbolism is concerned but if curze had to have wings they would have to be leather like a bat or a dragon to further contrast them I know what I said about things being too on the nose but at this point you may as well go all the way.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 If Curze ever became a Daemon primarch I would have fully expected some giant bat wings, at the very least. Too perfect an opportunity to pass up.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 You're almost certainly right. Which in effect makes ideal for Curze specifically. I think any daemon representation of curze would likely be over the top monstrous in line with his fearful reputation.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 I remember seeing this concept art by a fan: preview.redd.it/h29kcaxze7b21.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=b40351b98a1e981eda8fcd0db7c22154c07cd1db Its most likely in that vein of things. No other primarch really cared that much about projecting sheer terror like the night haunter did, and if they became a Daemon Primarch somehow after death, I'm pretty sure whatever was left of Curze would have been taken over by that persona.
Here's what I think: The Emperor wasn't able to complete the primarchs project. He had reached a wall and he was desperate to complete it. So desperate in fact. That his lied, cajoled and outright stole from the chaos gods. But it still wasn't enough. So he did what any good father would do. He begged chaos undivided for the information , power or schematics to finish them. The chaos gods denied him, but that cheeky bastard Tzentch stole from the gods and gave it to him..... for a price. That they would be scattered across the galaxy. But the emperor was allow to determine which planets his children would be scattered to.
@Jeremy Hess convoluted? Maybe you need to read up on your lore before yo talk to me something being " convulted" The emperor has already directly talked to more than one chaos God and was caught sneaking out of the Library of Tzentch in his unfathomable mazed citadel. It was the chaos gate on molek where the emperor had ventured to seek more power from the chaos gods which they granted him. It isn't that much more of a stretch to think he would speak again. And for being "convulted" how do you think that the primarchs were scattered 'safely and unharmed' to human inhabit worlds instead of stars or gas giants? The chaos God of change has in the past. With impunity ruined the plans of the 3 other gods. Just for S&Gs! When the characters themselves multiple authors come to the same conclusion as I have. Well I consider it as a done deal. Maybe you need to brush up on your 40k lore. Besides how is my interpretation not valid?
I think the Emperor foresaw the scattering, with the same gift of foresight Sanguinius and Curze possessed, rather than intending for it. Likely he could have stopped it, but who knows what the ruinous powers would have attempted had they failed and allowed the scattering as it was the least worst possibility. I even suspect the reason the Primarchs were so suited for each world they ended up on was a gift from the Emperor to ease their suffering. Their nature, temperaments and abilities the only aid he could offer them without showing his hand to the chaos gods and creating a worse fate for his sons. Of course he also knew some would fall to Chaos, so likely those destined for terrible fates such as Angron, Mortarian, Lorgar and Curze could well have been set up to fail. Even then though, I think Sanguinius was right, and that the Emperor hoped his Sons would each choose to be better men, but, as an ever practical man, if some were inevitably going to fail and fall, better to make easy targets and spare the rest than risk the best and most useful become corrupted (not that it helped poor Fulgrim and Magnus, mind).
Honest question for the fans out there. Do you want Sanguinius back in 40K? I honestly think the Primarchs that are dead should stay that way because it lessens the impact those events and the things they did hugely. Think of the epic moments of Sanguinius Battling at Terra, this conversation with Curze vowing to stay by his brothers side to give him that chance at redemption or his final talk and fight with horus. If hes just brought I think Sanguinius's legend would suffer for it. His sacrifice is well no longer a sacrifice and that in my eyes is what makes him such a great Primarch.
I commented this on another channel, but I love how certain hobbies and interests never leave you truly. I'm coming back to the world of 40k from a 17 year hiatus and I absolutely love the lore. The story of the Primarch's has always fascinated me and now after all these years, there is so much more material to sink my teeth into. The underpinning of these stories to biblical parables is pretty cool - get Cain and Abel vibes here. *subscribes*
Konrad Curze and the Nightlords....at first i thought they where just token EdgeLords, but the more I hear come from the actual mouth of Night Haunter, the more I think he may of been the best Primarch.
From what I remember when Horus goes back to see the past with Erebus disguised. Horus is able to interact and kill some custodies and damage 2 of the tanks. Hinting at the lost 2 primarch I think. The Emperor interacts with them too when the portal opens up and sucks the pods out. I got the impression that he couldn’t stop them from being taken but he could help with their landing points.
@@bentuovila5296 I mean when you can also see the future, potentially even more clearly and can then plan your unpredictability to that foresight then you can hold your own with basically anyone
Curze is one of the more skilled fellas. Not sayin he's the most skilled but he doesn't mess around. And well, his insanity made him very dangerous. Definitly a primarch capable of defeating the others.
In some ways, it seems like Konrad is one the Primarchs who is most hurt by not having his father with him growing up. He wanted to have a father, a mentor, and someone to guide him when he was growing up.
Eh Konrad is just as correct as Sanguinius. The problem is they don't have enough information and have to rely on their personal experiences. They both speculate. And they both lie to themselves. I do appreciate the fact that the story of Konrad and the Night Lords tends to be so grey. Where and with whom lies the fault? The Emperor? Konrad? His brothers? Nostramo? The Legion? Everyone seems to constantly fuck the other over... with plenty of guilt to go around. But above all... In the end... Most major players in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future... are douchebags of varying degree!
This is really a good parallel about God. Do we see Gods decisions as sinister? Or do we see there is good behind his decisions. One thing about 40k, is that it is VERY religious/occult. It has a blend of both mixed in; Good and Bad. The debate between Curze and Sanguinius is really the conflict we have in ourselves. I definitely feel Sanguinius is right here, even though I get where Curze is coming from.
I will always believe the Emperor truly loved his sons but just took measures to protect them. Not always the best ways but the intentions were there for sure.
The difference is that Curze is more like a twisted genius. So if he believes he can kill you, more than likely he can, or has a very solid chance at doing so.
Great Stuff as always! I've been addicted to the channel since Spring! Best 40K channel + content around (and there are some pretty solid 40K related channels out there).
Great video,my personal opinion that emperor did not had full choice when it come to scattering but he was able to make sure to at least steer his sons to world best suited for them
Sanguinius vs Curze? Are we talking about Sanguinius in full armour and gear? Then the Angel takes the cake. But what I would love to see is a Corax vs Curze showdown.
I suspect the primarch being sucked into the warp wasn't planned, but being guided to planets that suited them had something to do with the emperor using his abilities. The truth usually sits in the middle
I think the Emperor found out Chaos's plans and then did what he could to mitigate the damage by sending his sons to worlds that they could thrive upon. Say there were 1000 worlds each that the primarchs could have landed upon it would have made sense for the Emperor to just wait to see if a great leader/warrior appeared on a world before he went to get his sons.
We all always have a choice. Choices open and close doors. The kinds of choices we make, built upon our successes and failures sculpt the decisions we make in the now. Finally over time, our we come to a fork in the road, go on or burn out.
I've always felt conrad was a bit too much of an edge lord for my taste but konrad is pretty tragic when you actually think about it. A complete fatalism, a guy just trying to do his best to make dad proud only to find out that not only was he designed and predetermined to be a "bad guy" by his dad but also admonished for falling into that role. of course I do side with sanguinius's logic, Konrad had a choice and his fate wasn't determined he had all the qualities he needed to be good, he just embraced the wrong ones.
In The Board is Set, we learn not only that Konrad was fated to turn, but that the Emperor both counted on it and needed it to get Vulkan off of Istvaan. Which means Curze was right. Emps wanted him to do what he did. The only hitch in the plan came when Sanguinius didn't take Curze back to Terra.
@@EmperorNortonII not exactly. Konrad turning into a sadistic , fatalistic , dogmatic to justice maniac was never the plan. Emperor is known to bullshit and I %100 believe it is the case here.
I'm quite new to 40k and loved Sanguinius since I first got into the lore and everyone time I hear or read more about him he just gets better. Need to look into the story of Curz as I only not bits about him
Konrad growing up on Nostramo his view was shaped by the corruption from the top down. So he looks for ill intentions just about everywhere. Questioning Sangunious to try to carry his notions about the Emperor dealing in falsehoods since both have the foresight{aside here Sangunious would be one that Konrad "trusts" because Corax would kill Kurze on first knowing Konrad was there & Magnus thinks Kurze is one step up from Logar who Magnus hates plus Magnus at the time dealing with his own problems}.
@Jeremy Hess In one line of thought yes, Kurze suspicions however for a time left him a bit blinded by Horus who was being set up by the ruinous powers. The problem is how he utilized going in on the Istavan massacres. It doesn't put one in a relatively negotiative position. Knowing that you're right rather than following up upon more than just a meeting with Sangunious. That's basically his weakness was of a straight black and white justification or judgment because what he learned on Nostramo. In fact it's the same non wavering that didn't endear himself to Magnus on a compliance mission where there was a library{one knows Magnus & knowledge}being that Kurze followed to the letter of the Emperor's edict upon speading the Imperial Truth. That tower library was to be turned to not but ash & rubble. Magnus short of bending the knee pleaded with Kurze to keep the library intact which Wolf Lord Ro has lore on that meeting. Suffice to say Magnus never forgot. About Magnus doing nothing wrong, pride in his abilities cost him before & at Nikia. When you flaunt your gifts in front of your brothers, jealously loathing abound. Magnus again pride in trying to get the warning of Horus's betrayal cost him dearly. Sacrificing thralls is not a good way showing you're loyal if he had emergency news having a inclination that his father was working on something. If he could have swallowed his pride contacting Malcador that Horus carrying out betrayal, yes he may or would have been chastised for breaking the treaty. Or contacted Russ I know that sounds far fetched but either way would have avoided the hole in the webway for chaos to get through. Magnus should have slowed down but the price of pride cost him. Russ the unfortunate that he was, Horus duped him in telling him that the Emperor had changed his mind wanting an example made of Magnus, his sons, and his world.
Yes got it right away. I'm loving night lords right now. Thanks for doing this. Is there any other night lord books, or stories that you would recommend?
I love that two Primarchs with divination powers can't come to the simple conclusion that perhaps the scattering was a fail safe measure that wasn't suppossed to ever actually be used? Big E put a lot of work into his second favorite toys(First being his Custodes). I have always thought that the jumps were a pre-programmed response to the Word Bearers appearing in the Emperors lab(since that became a thing) to planets the Emperor had a rough idea would be suitable from both his memories and old records as well as perhaps some divination. Basically an "Oh shit, chaos has broken the wards and is in my secret lab( which I theorize they could only do with Lorgar or one of the other Primarchs as they provide a soul link into the lab to get past any wards), teleport out and scatter my super secret weapons so they can't get their hands on them all. " Still I love the True Believer and Captain Hate Face with the intelligence to plan galaxy wide conquest never consider it was a worst case scenario option that got used. Like seriously guys, he keeps telling you he's only human, stop acting like shit has never gone wrong for him before Horus got his panties in a twist.
@@Audiotrocious I wish Konrad got Sanguinious as a tutor instead of Fulgrim. Can you imagine two sane but bloodthirsty loyalist vampire superhumans? Chaos would be screwed.
@@chaptermastermoloc4171 Oh I know. It's not that he wasn't good, I just thank Sanguinious could have related more with his visions and violent outbursts, given his own issues. Also, good to see another Asterion Moloc fan. The unkillable Chapter Master.
I LOVE 40k stories because the subtle messages align SO PERFECTLY with real life. It's EASY to have faith and strength when life has been GOOD to you. For example, I have this cousin, and he is addicted to meth. Consequently, my WHOLE EXTENDED family condemns and looks down-on-him. But, I don't. He got dealt a HORRIBLE HAND in life. Absolutely horrible. He has probably been ignored by the ENTIRE WORLD for his ENTIRE LIFE. I feel bad for him. Life is hard for ME, and I've had an easy life.
Curze is as good as Sanguinius because of their advantage. When your precog let's you see your opponents every move begore he makes it, there's no much of a competition.
@@magnusthered5994 the siege of terra novels are retarded thanks to loyalist off-sucking which I'm tired of (Sanguinius and Curze are my two fav primarchs)
I don't know. How do we even know the Emps made 21 primarchs? What if he did 50, but they were just too faulty and he got rid of them before they were known. Did he plan the faults of Sanguinius? Were they on purpose? Or were they a normality of growth. We don't know. Konrad has a point. Nothing apologises his crimes. But he does have a point. Emps were planning 5 steps ahead of everyone. Not even Guiliman could know what he was thinking.
Curse does have a good track record against his Brothers. He almost kills the Lion one on one but one of The Lion's men saves him. he's more than able to duel both the Lion and Guilliman at the same time and he can fight off Vulkan and Corax. I don't count Dorn, as blind siding someone who isnt prepared for a fight imo isn't an actual fight
Considering the following events and how many Primarchs were lost or almost to death or the enemy I'd say the cirmunstances were not engineered, especially in the case of Lorgar.
this is an interesting interaction between these two. I always thought the emperor clearly gave sanguinius a choice for his fate. He had everything going for him while curse tried that option and was shown he could not change his fate. Both can see the future one can avoid or go into it how he decides while the other can see it and it's unavoidable
well we do not know how good was Curze saying he will take on Sanguinius maybe he will take him if he will be right in his mind and i thing even Russ saying this...problem we have is not enough information about primarchs ...one who speak about them is Russ and i will stick to it its quite acceptable statement...But who knows...
I always found it interesting that one of the most violent Traitor Primarchs always wanted to talk first.
@David Bury Dorn scares the shit out of everyone.
@@leatcanned You mean: Curze scares the shit out of everyone. He makes Dorn pee himself at his mere mention.
@David Bury Yet Dorn didn't wanted to chat with Alphariu before killing him.
@David Bury well the fortress guy is pure brevet.
Brevety
Your spoiler warning should be, "Spoiler. We're going to talk about some cool s#*t".
Can confirm. Shits were pretty cool
I think it's interesting that Conrad and Big S both have the gift of foresight, and they both know that they are going to die their entire life. The angel sacrifices himself for the emperor, and Conrad allows the assassin to behrad him as vindication for all of his beliefs. It's also interesting that they are both essentially each other's opposites but they both have the gift of foresight. I cannot believe that that is simply a coincidence.
This reminds me of the interaction between Batman and his evil counterpart Owlman in Crisis on Two Earths. Right before Batman sends Owlman to an alternate universe he says, "There is a difference between us. We both stared into the abyss. But when it looked back at us, you blinked."
Honestly, that fits far better than it should. Never thought Sanguinius would be compared to Batman. Superman maybe.
Great film.
dont forget when he also says "it doesnt matter"
Keep the videos coming Wolf Lord, you're doing the Emperors work.
Yes. This has been approved by your emperors holy inquisition.
Mighty Pancake hell this is a damn good channel👌. I just wish i knew the amazing music he always uses was.
half empty meets half full
I've been a Night lords and Curze fan ever since I started 40k o so long ago now. Yet, when I read this, and hearing it again now. I can't help but always feel deep down sanguineous was always right when talking to Curze. I have always believed if given more time between the two and some give and take, Curze Would have been forgiven in the eyes of his brother. Maybe still be traitor, sure, but more renegade than a chaos lackey. As Curze was never about the ruinous powers, nor some angsty child like one of his brothers. He felt betrayed and abused by his father and forced powers respectively.
Love the commentary Wolf and the videos. Keep up the good work.
I've always thought of Kurze as more of a renegade myself. Definitely not a puppet of Chaos, just not a lackey of old Emps either.
Agreed Kurze and Sanguinius have always been my 2 favorite Primarchs and are almost opposites of the same coin.
.... and yet, Sanguinius also marched to his own death, flushing Curze into space in a statsis pod. Something that might have turned the tide on Terra if a different choice was made.
Remember when Konrads parents got killed infont of him outside the movie theater, turning him into the nighthaunter. Then he met Guilimen for the first time and before he killed him Guilimen said *"Martha"* and curze realizes their mother's have the same name?
Good times
Its Haunter'ing time! 🤣😂
this is the best thing to listen to while I'm welding, thanks wolf lord Rho
If they do a great crusade series, I really want to see more sanguineus and Curze interactions.
George Soha I want more information about Fulgrim teaching Curze
@Nicholas Squires Dude same, I honestly just want more primarch interactions period.
Sanguinius was truly the best boi. Being this loyal to humanity despite knowing how much of an asshole E Money was is a true character defining moment of Sanguinius in HH
Personally, I agree with Sanguinius. The Emperor lied, and it turned out to be a mistake (understatement) but the intention was pure. Kurze’s main problem is that there is no moderation in his character. It’s all bad or it’s all good. And he never sees the good.
Probablemente el MEJOR comentario LIKE too you Sir 👍
Nailed it again, Jarl. Even with a chicken bone in each hands Sanguinius would still be unstoppable.
I don't know, it must be a flip of a coin imo. Russ places them in the same category of superiority for a reason and theres no need for Curze to boast meaninglessly. It would be close
@@shekel8245 haha I know and agree with you. It s just my love for Angel talking. The unpredictable mad man is a beast of a fighter.
@@adrien9075 Totally with you bro. Sanguinius isnt my favourite but he is DEFINITELY the greatest primarch imo. #SanguiniusForWarmaster
@@shekel8245 yeah he has the charisma the Lion lack for leading his brothers as warmaster, even if Im not against El'Jonsson leadership, he is too much "keep your secrets secret" and rough. Also that s why he was regent of Imperium secundus, the angel was made to lead through the darkness.
J Robinson russ and angron are probably the best on unarmed combat. Sanguinius, Cruz are the best in armed combat, largely due to their foresight ability. And Horus a close second based on his pure martial and athletic prowess
"The scattering was intended but flawed". Perfectly described. It shaped the Primarchs in a way the Emperor never could but Tzeentch had his plans too. Perhaps the Emperor thought has was a match for him but actually wasn't.
As the Emperor said himself, he is no god, just a man. An exceptionally powerful man, but not omnipotent or omniscient
Could be. He could have also have foreseen a possibility where each primarch overcame their planets flaws. Like in the Curze book when he catches a glimpse of a positive future. Except Angron. Poor Angron....
@@malb.4107 Angron's future was foreseen by the Eldar and they tried to kill him which only lead to his terrible fate coming true. I think that's the worst part.
I wonder if Tzeentch had plans & hadn’t foreseen the Emperor’s designs.
@@Speleomimus HE IS THE MESSIAH!
I'm konrad
In batman voice
you know it 😂
I laughed too hard at this
Vlad the Impaler + Batman = Konrad Curze
Which Batman
@@samuraibear5102 dark Knight
It's a battle of speed and precogs, meaning they both stand a chance. This would normally be a case of first blood=kill, but if they're both fully armored and prepared to face each other, they're both fighting a long fast fight of death by 1000 cuts. So, the outcome is fairly undeterminable.
Sanguinius can’t be defeated by any Primarch except a Chaos infested Horus against whom he lheld back.
@@magnusthered5994 and Magnus should have been able to delete Leman but that definitely didn’t happen
Sanguinus is the best ! I do hope and want him to return to the game
I hope he does to see his reaction to his brothers and the imperium at large plus he's my favourite primarch closely followed by the lion but khan is slowly gaining the second spot the more on reading and learning 😁
Devastation of Baal made me like the Blood Angles and Sanguinious, so much so it made me go back to HH blood angels books.
A friend and I had a discussion about this scene and pondered if Sanguinius and Curze are supposed to be stand ins for the audience and even some authors of black library on how they interpret the events of the Emperor.
Watching American college football and listening to Wolf Lord is a great way to spend a Saturday afternoon!
at 2:30 Curze claims that he only came to talk, not to fight. In the immortal words of Winston Churchill: "It is better to jaw-jaw than war-war."
Ave dominus nox!! Cheers brother great work as always !!
Pretty clear Kurze is trying to persuade himself fate deprived him of a choice and of any responsibility.
His own novel makes it clear it was all him, not ‘fate.’
Good job. Really appreciate what you are doing
Your enthusiasm for the lore is infectious wolf lord! Keep it up!
Honestly, the one thing that makes everyone think that Sanguinius would win is his ability to fly. Pretty hard to hit a guy you can't reach. Jump packs aren't anywhere near as accurate, and they have fuel. Meanwhile, Sanguinius could just fly around shooting at you.
Y'know, Rho, I've never been a player of 40K but have absorbed the lore and artwork like a sponge. I'm also of a pretty high standard when painting the miniatures. Yours is one of the channels that's got me back into said painting, so I just wanna say thanks for the inspiration 😉🙂
I've always flip-floped between the emperor caring about his sons or him just seeing them as tools, as pawns in his his plan to protect humanity, and once their usefulness has finished do a thunder warrior job again.
I'm my opinion the emperor doesn't or cannot see humanity as individuals, to him as long as the whole is functioning and somewhat moving in the same direction that's a win, and it doesn't matter what it costs him or humanity all that matters is that humanity is moving forward. Where the primarchs might change this outlook is the fact that they are 'his sons' from his DNA and they all have been engineered to mirror different aspects of him and that would have to bring out a fatherly pride of some kind of preternatural response, it's in our genetics we can't escape that.
YES, our favourite hawk boy.
I always found it curious how the traitors hate the emperor for lying but then they too depended on deception and lies to kill their brothers and have no problem with the choas "gods" lying to them...
I know right? Sure, The Emperor is a liar. His greatest son just admitted it and even said it hurt him to realize that. But there is a MAJOR difference between a parent who tries to keep things from you because their afraid such knowledge could either hurt them or they are not ready for it yet, and the sociopath Warp-Parasite quartet that deliberately omit details and obscure the truth to get you to do horrible things to feed their never ending addiction.
Felt bad for curze, he felt Emperor abandoned him to a world of darkness and lost hope. As well no parent to look after him since his childhood
My two favorite Primarch's in a scene narrated by Wolf Lord Rho? Perfection.
Sanguinius: I love my son's
Konrad: I fucking hate mine
I wish Curze had a giant pair or black wings. I’ve always seen him as a kind of Anti-Sanguinius
That a bit too on The nose for me as symbolism is concerned but if curze had to have wings they would have to be leather like a bat or a dragon to further contrast them I know what I said about things being too on the nose but at this point you may as well go all the way.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 If Curze ever became a Daemon primarch I would have fully expected some giant bat wings, at the very least.
Too perfect an opportunity to pass up.
@@gabrieltsgardner9942 I think it would be one of things where it sounds cool in concept but in execution it would be very cringe.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 You're almost certainly right.
Which in effect makes ideal for Curze specifically.
I think any daemon representation of curze would likely be over the top monstrous in line with his fearful reputation.
@@thesmilinggun-knight9646 I remember seeing this concept art by a fan: preview.redd.it/h29kcaxze7b21.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=b40351b98a1e981eda8fcd0db7c22154c07cd1db
Its most likely in that vein of things. No other primarch really cared that much about projecting sheer terror like the night haunter did, and if they became a Daemon Primarch somehow after death, I'm pretty sure whatever was left of Curze would have been taken over by that persona.
Your video frequency is increasing. Goooood, also.
FOR SANGUINIUS!!! FOR THE EMPEROR!!!
Here's what I think: The Emperor wasn't able to complete the primarchs project. He had reached a wall and he was desperate to complete it. So desperate in fact. That his lied, cajoled and outright stole from the chaos gods. But it still wasn't enough. So he did what any good father would do. He begged chaos undivided for the information , power or schematics to finish them. The chaos gods denied him, but that cheeky bastard Tzentch stole from the gods and gave it to him..... for a price. That they would be scattered across the galaxy. But the emperor was allow to determine which planets his children would be scattered to.
Makes more sense than the chaos gods wanting to destroy the Emperor's plans, but then they send the primarchs to human inhabitated worlds
@Jeremy Hess convoluted? Maybe you need to read up on your lore before yo talk to me something being " convulted" The emperor has already directly talked to more than one chaos God and was caught sneaking out of the Library of Tzentch in his unfathomable mazed citadel. It was the chaos gate on molek where the emperor had ventured to seek more power from the chaos gods which they granted him. It isn't that much more of a stretch to think he would speak again. And for being "convulted" how do you think that the primarchs were scattered 'safely and unharmed' to human inhabit worlds instead of stars or gas giants? The chaos God of change has in the past. With impunity ruined the plans of the 3 other gods. Just for S&Gs! When the characters themselves multiple authors come to the same conclusion as I have. Well I consider it as a done deal. Maybe you need to brush up on your 40k lore. Besides how is my interpretation not valid?
@Jeremy Hess Yes because anything that has to do with Tzeench is straightforward.
Good job Rho! Looking forward to hearing more from you :D
Emperor protects brothers .
Indeed Brother!
Kurze is such a badass. I really love him and all the nightlords.
I think the Emperor foresaw the scattering, with the same gift of foresight Sanguinius and Curze possessed, rather than intending for it. Likely he could have stopped it, but who knows what the ruinous powers would have attempted had they failed and allowed the scattering as it was the least worst possibility.
I even suspect the reason the Primarchs were so suited for each world they ended up on was a gift from the Emperor to ease their suffering. Their nature, temperaments and abilities the only aid he could offer them without showing his hand to the chaos gods and creating a worse fate for his sons.
Of course he also knew some would fall to Chaos, so likely those destined for terrible fates such as Angron, Mortarian, Lorgar and Curze could well have been set up to fail. Even then though, I think Sanguinius was right, and that the Emperor hoped his Sons would each choose to be better men, but, as an ever practical man, if some were inevitably going to fail and fall, better to make easy targets and spare the rest than risk the best and most useful become corrupted (not that it helped poor Fulgrim and Magnus, mind).
Honest question for the fans out there. Do you want Sanguinius back in 40K? I honestly think the Primarchs that are dead should stay that way because it lessens the impact those events and the things they did hugely. Think of the epic moments of Sanguinius Battling at Terra, this conversation with Curze vowing to stay by his brothers side to give him that chance at redemption or his final talk and fight with horus. If hes just brought I think Sanguinius's legend would suffer for it. His sacrifice is well no longer a sacrifice and that in my eyes is what makes him such a great Primarch.
There is always a choice. Even when one of the choices is unspeakable, it's still there.
I would love to see you do a video explaining the fall of each Primarch.
I commented this on another channel, but I love how certain hobbies and interests never leave you truly. I'm coming back to the world of 40k from a 17 year hiatus and I absolutely love the lore. The story of the Primarch's has always fascinated me and now after all these years, there is so much more material to sink my teeth into. The underpinning of these stories to biblical parables is pretty cool - get Cain and Abel vibes here.
*subscribes*
Konrad Curze and the Nightlords....at first i thought they where just token EdgeLords, but the more I hear come from the actual mouth of Night Haunter, the more I think he may of been the best Primarch.
From what I remember when Horus goes back to see the past with Erebus disguised. Horus is able to interact and kill some custodies and damage 2 of the tanks. Hinting at the lost 2 primarch I think. The Emperor interacts with them too when the portal opens up and sucks the pods out. I got the impression that he couldn’t stop them from being taken but he could help with their landing points.
David Ring
He ‘damages’ one tank.
@@kelman727 maybe curze was the damaged one and that the visions and the madness
Sanguinius is a bad ass even when he doesn't have armour
Curze was dangerous because he was unpredictable, not because he was overly skilled.
That's my interpretation too, with a side of sketchy precognition.
Being unpredictable isn't going to help as much against someone who can see the future.
@@bentuovila5296 I mean when you can also see the future, potentially even more clearly and can then plan your unpredictability to that foresight then you can hold your own with basically anyone
Curze is one of the more skilled fellas. Not sayin he's the most skilled but he doesn't mess around. And well, his insanity made him very dangerous. Definitly a primarch capable of defeating the others.
In some ways, it seems like Konrad is one the Primarchs who is most hurt by not having his father with him growing up. He wanted to have a father, a mentor, and someone to guide him when he was growing up.
Eh Konrad is just as correct as Sanguinius.
The problem is they don't have enough information and have to rely on their personal experiences.
They both speculate. And they both lie to themselves.
I do appreciate the fact that the story of Konrad and the Night Lords tends to be so grey. Where and with whom lies the fault? The Emperor? Konrad? His brothers? Nostramo? The Legion? Everyone seems to constantly fuck the other over... with plenty of guilt to go around.
But above all...
In the end...
Most major players in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future... are douchebags of varying degree!
This is really a good parallel about God. Do we see Gods decisions as sinister? Or do we see there is good behind his decisions.
One thing about 40k, is that it is VERY religious/occult. It has a blend of both mixed in; Good and Bad.
The debate between Curze and Sanguinius is really the conflict we have in ourselves.
I definitely feel Sanguinius is right here, even though I get where Curze is coming from.
Vlad the impaler of the 40k universe
mihai Purice Vlad the Impale + BAtman = Konrad Curze
More moon night than batman
Anzu Wyliei lol
Thank you for this. Love anything with The Great Angel. Looking forward to the next installment. Could happily listen to you narrate an entire novel!
I will always believe the Emperor truly loved his sons but just took measures to protect them. Not always the best ways but the intentions were there for sure.
Always considered Curze as someone who unlike Russ would never admit he’d lose to anyone. So anything he says must have that context in mind
The difference is that Curze is more like a twisted genius. So if he believes he can kill you, more than likely he can, or has a very solid chance at doing so.
Bud I've just found your channel and it's so awesome!
Thanks for another great lore video. Your comments are always insightful and enjoyable to listen to. Keep up the good work, sir.
The ones who turned, with the exception of Horus, were the primarchs who got raw deals.
Great Stuff as always! I've been addicted to the channel since Spring! Best 40K channel + content around (and there are some pretty solid 40K related channels out there).
Great video,my personal opinion that emperor did not had full choice when it come to scattering but he was able to make sure to at least steer his sons to world best suited for them
Commenting as always because you deserve more ad rev and better stats. You do amazing work
The wisdom of the Lord of Angels! How I wish he would rise from the dead
I thought the Lion was the Primarch the rest feared most and that could beat all his brothers in a straight up fight?
Sanguinius vs Curze? Are we talking about Sanguinius in full armour and gear? Then the Angel takes the cake.
But what I would love to see is a Corax vs Curze showdown.
We did get a brief show-down between Corvus and Konrad during the Dropsite Massacre, but it was too brief to tell who won.
Corax was just fighting another primarch before Curze came in so.....
@@randomcenturion7264 No, I am talking about a 1 v 1 Death Match between the two. 2 Primarchs enter. 1 leaves.
Curze would murder Corax, simple. Curze and Sangy in full armor? About equal, both foresight, one has wings, the other stealth and dirty fighting.
I suspect the primarch being sucked into the warp wasn't planned, but being guided to planets that suited them had something to do with the emperor using his abilities. The truth usually sits in the middle
Thoughts.
1 Sanguinius beats Kurze in a duel.
2 Scattering wasnt accidental
3 great video 🔥🔥🔥
Thoughts.
1. You like sucking Sangy's balls
2. That's it🔥🔥🔥
I think the Emperor found out Chaos's plans and then did what he could to mitigate the damage by sending his sons to worlds that they could thrive upon. Say there were 1000 worlds each that the primarchs could have landed upon it would have made sense for the Emperor to just wait to see if a great leader/warrior appeared on a world before he went to get his sons.
Sanguinus without his armor our weapons vs a decked out cruz... the odds are on Conrad. But with equal gear I side with the angel every time.
We all always have a choice. Choices open and close doors. The kinds of choices we make, built upon our successes and failures sculpt the decisions we make in the now. Finally over time, our we come to a fork in the road, go on or burn out.
After reading the Curze book I kind of want Konrad to return in Text To Speech device.
I've always felt conrad was a bit too much of an edge lord for my taste but konrad is pretty tragic when you actually think about it. A complete fatalism, a guy just trying to do his best to make dad proud only to find out that not only was he designed and predetermined to be a "bad guy" by his dad but also admonished for falling into that role. of course I do side with sanguinius's logic, Konrad had a choice and his fate wasn't determined he had all the qualities he needed to be good, he just embraced the wrong ones.
In The Board is Set, we learn not only that Konrad was fated to turn, but that the Emperor both counted on it and needed it to get Vulkan off of Istvaan. Which means Curze was right. Emps wanted him to do what he did. The only hitch in the plan came when Sanguinius didn't take Curze back to Terra.
@@EmperorNortonII not exactly. Konrad turning into a sadistic , fatalistic , dogmatic to justice maniac was never the plan. Emperor is known to bullshit and I %100 believe it is the case here.
Knowing now that their "mother" scattered them makes this a weird conversation
The question is did she really or does the emperor allow her to do so? After all he didn't punish her or anything as far as I know.
I'm quite new to 40k and loved Sanguinius since I first got into the lore and everyone time I hear or read more about him he just gets better. Need to look into the story of Curz as I only not bits about him
Konrad growing up on Nostramo his view was shaped by the corruption from the top down. So he looks for ill intentions just about everywhere. Questioning Sangunious to try to carry his notions about the Emperor dealing in falsehoods since both have the foresight{aside here Sangunious would be one that Konrad "trusts" because Corax would kill Kurze on first knowing Konrad was there & Magnus thinks Kurze is one step up from Logar who Magnus hates plus Magnus at the time dealing with his own problems}.
@Jeremy Hess In one line of thought yes, Kurze suspicions however for a time left him a bit blinded by Horus who was being set up by the ruinous powers. The problem is how he utilized going in on the Istavan massacres. It doesn't put one in a relatively negotiative position. Knowing that you're right rather than following up upon more than just a meeting with Sangunious. That's basically his weakness was of a straight black and white justification or judgment because what he learned on Nostramo. In fact it's the same non wavering that didn't endear himself to Magnus on a compliance mission where there was a library{one knows Magnus & knowledge}being that Kurze followed to the letter of the Emperor's edict upon speading the Imperial Truth. That tower library was to be turned to not but ash & rubble. Magnus short of bending the knee pleaded with Kurze to keep the library intact which Wolf Lord Ro has lore on that meeting. Suffice to say Magnus never forgot.
About Magnus doing nothing wrong, pride in his abilities cost him before & at Nikia. When you flaunt your gifts in front of your brothers, jealously loathing abound. Magnus again pride in trying to get the warning of Horus's betrayal cost him dearly. Sacrificing thralls is not a good way showing you're loyal if he had emergency news having a inclination that his father was working on something. If he could have swallowed his pride contacting Malcador that Horus carrying out betrayal, yes he may or would have been chastised for breaking the treaty. Or contacted Russ I know that sounds far fetched but either way would have avoided the hole in the webway for chaos to get through. Magnus should have slowed down but the price of pride cost him. Russ the unfortunate that he was, Horus duped him in telling him that the Emperor had changed his mind wanting an example made of Magnus, his sons, and his world.
Yes got it right away. I'm loving night lords right now. Thanks for doing this. Is there any other night lord books, or stories that you would recommend?
Reverend TG night lirds Are pretty unbelievable
The Night Lords Onimbus is an excellent start
@@Audiotrocious I just finished Soul Hunter ! It was amazing. Just waiting for the rest to come to audible
Always good to see some important content
Awesome as always my brother!
I love that two Primarchs with divination powers can't come to the simple conclusion that perhaps the scattering was a fail safe measure that wasn't suppossed to ever actually be used? Big E put a lot of work into his second favorite toys(First being his Custodes). I have always thought that the jumps were a pre-programmed response to the Word Bearers appearing in the Emperors lab(since that became a thing) to planets the Emperor had a rough idea would be suitable from both his memories and old records as well as perhaps some divination.
Basically an "Oh shit, chaos has broken the wards and is in my secret lab( which I theorize they could only do with Lorgar or one of the other Primarchs as they provide a soul link into the lab to get past any wards), teleport out and scatter my super secret weapons so they can't get their hands on them all. "
Still I love the True Believer and Captain Hate Face with the intelligence to plan galaxy wide conquest never consider it was a worst case scenario option that got used. Like seriously guys, he keeps telling you he's only human, stop acting like shit has never gone wrong for him before Horus got his panties in a twist.
This is really ultimate pessimism vs ultimate optimism
Really enjoy your uploads bruv. Cheers for all your hard work.
Sanguinius would have ripped Curze apart. Even Russ doubted he could beat the Great Angel.
He also doubted he could beat Curze so your statement says exactly nothing, dumbass.
Just Awsome !!! I love the Great Angel but Curze is the fuckin& Legend may The God Emperor bless The Black Library with righteous Light 💫✝️✨
Konrad may be arrogant and crazy but he's such a G. 100% one of my top 3 favorite primarchs. I always wished he got his redemption as a loyalist
Another great video as always!
Vampire Bros. :)
Random Centurion Psyker Vampires Brothers...ASSEMBLE!
@@Audiotrocious I wish Konrad got Sanguinious as a tutor instead of Fulgrim. Can you imagine two sane but bloodthirsty loyalist vampire superhumans? Chaos would be screwed.
@@randomcenturion7264 Pre heresy Fulgrim is actually good.
@@chaptermastermoloc4171 Oh I know. It's not that he wasn't good, I just thank Sanguinious could have related more with his visions and violent outbursts, given his own issues.
Also, good to see another Asterion Moloc fan. The unkillable Chapter Master.
You get a like before the vid as always. This is the best lore ever.
RA Salvatore should write the fight between those two, it would be epic
3:23 Nah his blade is of simple steel and energy... and *your blood*
I LOVE 40k stories because the subtle messages align SO PERFECTLY with real life.
It's EASY to have faith and strength when life has been GOOD to you.
For example, I have this cousin, and he is addicted to meth. Consequently, my WHOLE EXTENDED family condemns and looks down-on-him.
But, I don't.
He got dealt a HORRIBLE HAND in life. Absolutely horrible.
He has probably been ignored by the ENTIRE WORLD for his ENTIRE LIFE.
I feel bad for him. Life is hard for ME, and I've had an easy life.
I guess Hawkboy had nothing to worry about, since Konrad got dropped by a two bit assassin.
@Wolf Lord Ro, hey what music are you playing in the background there? Its awesome to listen to when I’m painting Warhammer Art. 😲
Curze is as good as Sanguinius because of their advantage.
When your precog let's you see your opponents every move begore he makes it, there's no much of a competition.
Sanguinius has the rage. Once it sets in no precog would matter. The Rage infused Sanguinius is unstoppable, he showed that at the Eternity gate.
@@magnusthered5994 the siege of terra novels are retarded thanks to loyalist off-sucking which I'm tired of (Sanguinius and Curze are my two fav primarchs)
Something worth listening to, thanks Wolf Lord:)
Kurze is tragic. Absolutely mad, and absolutely correct.
Awesome video, keep them coming 😁
I don't know. How do we even know the Emps made 21 primarchs? What if he did 50, but they were just too faulty and he got rid of them before they were known. Did he plan the faults of Sanguinius? Were they on purpose? Or were they a normality of growth. We don't know. Konrad has a point. Nothing apologises his crimes. But he does have a point.
Emps were planning 5 steps ahead of everyone. Not even Guiliman could know what he was thinking.
Curse does have a good track record against his Brothers.
He almost kills the Lion one on one but one of The Lion's men saves him. he's more than able to duel both the Lion and Guilliman at the same time and he can fight off Vulkan and Corax.
I don't count Dorn, as blind siding someone who isnt prepared for a fight imo isn't an actual fight
Ape mantus
The Lion owned him in their second duel entirely unaided.
@@kelman727 still doesnt change the out come of the first duel though.
@@kelman727 Lion adapted to Curze after the first fight it seems
Considering the following events and how many Primarchs were lost or almost to death or the enemy I'd say the cirmunstances were not engineered, especially in the case of Lorgar.
this is an interesting interaction between these two. I always thought the emperor clearly gave sanguinius a choice for his fate. He had everything going for him while curse tried that option and was shown he could not change his fate. Both can see the future one can avoid or go into it how he decides while the other can see it and it's unavoidable
well we do not know how good was Curze saying he will take on Sanguinius maybe he will take him if he will be right in his mind and i thing even Russ saying this...problem we have is not enough information about primarchs ...one who speak about them is Russ and i will stick to it its quite acceptable statement...But who knows...