Three Pastors With Different Perspectives on Voting for Trump
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 бер 2024
- Pastor Cary Gordon, Pastor Andrew Isker, and Pastor Joel Webbon all weigh in on whether Christians can or should vote for President Donald Trump.
#donaldtrump #christiannationalism - Розваги
Congrats to Pastor Joel and his family on baby #5 God is so good!!
See Immigration and assimilation by Theodore Roosevelt.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
John Adams
Good discussion!
And the good people withdrew and hid from the debate. For shame.
According to Cary I don’t see him voting. I’m 68 and there haven’t been many who meet his standard. We live with a system where we have to chose the better of the candidates offered even if they don’t meet Cary’s standard. If you agree with Cary don’t waste your time, none of the candidates qualify
His argument is that, when it comes to voting, we're applying situational ethics, which is a form of moral relativism. In an effort to avoid a large calamity, we're facilitating a smaller one. So pragmatism ends up being the deciding factor, and , as a result, we just keep managing the steady decay of society, and gently moving it more and more to the left, arguing that slouching towards Sodom is better than sprinting. While I'm not claiming this argument is airtight, I think an honest thoughtful person would see its merit, and not just dismiss it out of hand. He is not saying (in fact he was very clear about this) that a person has to be some paragon of virtue to lead a country. He was very specific that the people Jethro had to choose from were DEEPLY compromised, and Jethro knew it. In order to make an informed intelligent decision as to where you stand with Cary, I think you'd find it worthwhile to visit the site and watch the 5 part presentation. It's very short and I found it compelling.
"We live with a system where we have to chose the better of the candidates..." This is exactly what the Spirit of the Age wants you to think. Voting for the lesser of two evils is the reason why Republicans and Democrats continue move further and further to the left. We live in the world but we don't have to be of the world. I have had to write-ins many times because I couldn't in good conscience vote for the "approved" candidates.
It's certainly not very compelling in short form.@@heartofalegend
@@davidharrison3870What I said or the 5 part presentation at the site?
@@sealife1978I vote for the person who will do the least evil after they are elected. I love people. Politics matter because policies matter because people matter. Policies hurt people. I am loving my neighbor by voting for policies that will hurt them the least. I am appalled at The Church. Their inaction has led to where we are now. A government that steals from people, buys votes by giving our tax dollars to keep people in poverty, destroys the family, aborts babies, mutilates children, allows invaders to come in and destroy more lives, etc. I lay the blame of all this at the feet of the church, who didn’t want to hurt their conscience by actually getting involved and protecting others from bad policies. We wouldn’t be in this spot now if The Church had held government accountable to be what God made it to be. Voting for a third party candidate who made you feel better did nothing but make you feel good and put the worst person in office. Now, we are starting down the barrel of communism and they hate Christians. God help us all.
"Let's punish all the Trump supporters by letting bad guys win." is a hell of a take, Pastor Gordon
This was such a wonderful, thought-provoking conversation. I so appreciate and respect the three pastors that participated, and I am so grateful that Jon provided all of us the opportunity to view this content. 👏❤️
I think it would be interesting to hear from Voddie Bachman Jeff Kliewer and John Cooper. Id like to hear a pidcadt on tjis same topic with those 3 guys. Could be powerful!
Who are the Pharisees today?
In a Christian context, a modern day “Pharisee” is someone who follows the impulse to be seen as righteous by obeying certain laws, while ignoring more important matters of the heart.
Incorrect, but a very common mistake. The Pharisees were not tedious, scrupulous law-keepers; they invented their own laws, and broke God’s Law.
“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, _so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do._ For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.”
Was anyone else tracking with Pastor Gordon's line of reasoning and then have a brain glitch when he said, "speak truth to power"?
Abortion is a state issue. Most crimes are.
No one mentions federalism and the role of Congress, the states etc. the Constitution which all swear to.
If I were determined to support only perfect men, I would never listen to any of these men's sermons or sermons from any pastor. It is great to discuss the (many) issues with candidate Trump while kicking the can of what is happening in our country down the road while we wait on another George Washington. But do we assume that ANY president or ANY candidate has ever been what we demand from Trump and find lacking? If you have ever voted for any candidate for president, you cannot justify not supporting Trump on moral grounds. Most (maybe not 100%, but most) of our presidents have been moral degenerates to some extent. Kennedy was a very immoral man. Reagan was remarried. LBJ was a pervert. Clinton!!! Obama seems to have avoided the taint of adultery, but he was a tool of destruction against our nation. Biden is a career criminal. FDR was an adulterer. Carter? Maybe he escaped the list, but he governed like a 3-year-old. Hyperbole I know. But come on. We have been through all these morally debased presidents, and others besides, but we park the car to endlessly debate why NO TRUMP? Either we are hypocrites or we are delusional or we do NOT really want what it will take to (possibly but unlikely) turn this country around. There is a time to talk and a time to act. This is the latter. Trump is crude, blunt, and sometimes silly. He is bombastic, morally challenged, undisciplined IF he is saved, and unapologetic. These are traits no one should honor. But Trump is, IMO, just as good a man and 10 times the president compared to Carter, Clinton, Obama, Kennedy, LBJ, and especially Biden were/are. He was on par as a leader with Reagan (Reagan was better) and he was better than either of the Bushes. Except for Watergate (a minor issue compared to Biden's corrupt criminal career), Nixon was a good president too. But EVERY President, Democrat or Republican, was flawed in many ways, most just a s bad as Trump. But they got a pass. "Trump must be stopped!" I don't get it.
Obama had a history
Well said!!!
Perfect!
I don't think you can make a direct application of a situation where the power to directly appoint a leader was in one man's hands to a having to choose to cast a vote for a leader based on the system of a democratic republic. It's just not the same situation. Yes, if I was given the power to simply choose and appoint a leader myself, I would follow the biblical wisdom of Exodus 18. However, that is not the situation any of us are in. We are presented a choice... and biblical wisdom would say "which of these two choices most honors our Lord? Which choice is the most loving to our families, our neighbors and the children of our communities? AND, which choice gives the church the best opportunity to gain ground through the spreading of the gospel...
It is the situation. The voters have that power. You are a voter
Yes I agree. This is so obvious it is astonishing that Cary pushes such nonsense
Yes yes yes!! Exactly my thought as I was listening. We are presented a couple of options…he was hand picking from literally everyone.
"I just want to obey the scriptures"
When using this as an argument device, what the person is doing is preemptively Jesus Juking the conversation. They're steel manning their own argument so that now you can't disagree with them because then you're just disagreeing with the bible, cause as they've stated, that's all they want.
of course this is ridiculous for a conversation between believers, because that's the foundation of all our claims. So ultimately their argument can simply be understood as "I'm right because I claim to be right"
Yes, and I doubt that will carry much weight when they stand before God and He says, “Why did you let this policy come about? It hurt your neighbor so badly. Why didn’t you take part in the process I gave you to vote for the person who would hurt my children, my creations, the least?”
Pastor Gordon’s comments caused me to realize that I have more respect for a conservative who is not a Christian than I do for a professing Christian who is not a conservative. I will always vote for a republican over a democrat and I have since God saved me in 1984. The other two pastors I do respect their opinions.
We need fewer monk-like pastors and many more pastors like Joel and Andrew.
*mexicans
I don't vote for a King or a God, I vote for a man with similar values and beliefs. We don't have a theocracy, but a theodicy!
Thank you... Each and every one of you for participating in this conversation!!
Trying to navigate in a BIBLICAL manner in this current culture, political and otherwise, makes my head hurt. Not to mention my heart for the Lord, His people, and the lost in this generation.
So the only way that I have concluded to proceed on voting day is to vote for the candidate who is concerned with protecting the citizens of this nation by the rule of law, "Constitutional", and for rewarding good instead of evil. Donald Trump is the only one that I can see that I can cast my vote for. (Not because I agree with everything he says), but only because he is trying to rule by law and is against a lawless Nation, from what I can see and that being said in all of my human frailty. ONLY God knows everything that's really going on. He alone is God and may His perfect will prevail according to HIS perfect will and glory in Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ is the only perfect One. Only God can change a man's heart. I certainly do hope and pray, that He will turn hearts to Christ. Not only in this nation, but ALL nations. Also I pray that the Lord would wake up His church and continue to give us brave men of God, "like you all and other courageous Pastors who are brave enough to put themselves out there for the sake of the sheep" and encourage us by His Spirit, and enable us to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
To Him be the Glory!✝️
I listened to Pastor Cary in the primary, does that mean he still has the right to punish my children? My favorite candidate(s) lost over Trump lost.
"I'm willing to punish you because you don't listen to me"
He thinks he's your dad guys
The arrogance of this dude
His arrogance and pride was on full display in this video. Brags about his endorsement, his enlightening that others haven't received. Pastors like him are the exact reason I don't do church anymore. Celebrity pastors are so toxic and they are everywhere right now.
@@cubs3072If you “don’t do church” you’re living in habitual disobedience to God. You’ve “made a habit of sinning” and according to 1 John, “no one born of the Spirit makes a habit of sinning.”
@@matthewdyer2926 Can you please give me the exact scripture in 1 John you are trying to claim that I'm in "a habit of sinning" by simply not going to church?
@@cubs3072 The necessity of gathering as believers is implicit and assumed throughout the entire New Testament, but it is most explicitly commanded in the book of Hebrews-
“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, *not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some,* but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” Hebrews 10:24&25
As I mentioned, the explicit command here is reinforced implicitly everywhere in the NT; the epistles were all written to _churches,_ not lone island Christians; the Lord’s Supper is administered when believers gather; Church government and authority was established by Christ, which is why it is the subject of so many of Paul’s writings. You cannot be a Christian and not belong to a church. To do so is to live in a habit of disobedience, which John’s first epistle states is incompatible with a confession of faith.
@@cubs3072Heb 10 something says don’t forsake the gathering together of the saints. Almost all the letters in the NT are written to churches and how can we exhort and encourage each other if we aren’t together in church. We are the body. We need all the members present. We don’t disconnect an arm and leave it somewhere. We also burn the dross off each other by interacting. Also iron sharpens iron-get together and discuss God.
Poor John...I could tell you were dying to ask questions. Thank you. It was an excellent program.
Kids, do not do what pastor Gordon says. We'll have random write-ins that cancel each other out. Well never win. Look for the candidate that's closest to the Exodus 18 model. It's the bar to strive for, not the minimum standard.
Partial obedience to God on the qualifications of a leader is still disobedience to God.
If a president de thrones Planned Parenthood, (like trump was on his way to do while president) I like him. I like him a lot.
Then it must be disappointing to see him do an "about-face" and refer to things like the heartbeat bill as "terrible" and too harsh.
I think we see the "political" maturity and knowledge increase as we go through the pastors. Knowing Andrew's backstory in libertarianism in the mid-2000's to today, his thought process is all about effective politics for a solidified endgame- more long-term than short. Politics is always about compromise- never perfection. It is an unending sport that can change on a dime with a completely different landscape. So, having a deep understanding of the historical American legacy, and how it's been subverted starting even in the 1800's, significantly changes how you view politics. "I'm a Christian, so I want Jesus to be my politician." That sounds lovely, but you wouldn't have that option even at the founding of America. (You most likely would call Washington himself racist because he had slaves.) So to assume politics is just a "game for chumps" is not understanding the imperfect, unruly, yet powerful tool that it is. The fact is, the people who have a long term dedication to politics become the people who possess an incredible power that influences the country. The left knows no bounds- therefore, they never stop fighting. The right "knows when to surrender", gets annoyed/prideful that Jesus himself isn't on the ballot, shrug their shoulders, and hope for the best next time. Loser strategy short term and long term. A terrible strategy. The left is emotionally strategizing. Fantastic strategy. Immigrants, women, black people, trans people- they're swooned by the stories of oppression and uprising. Feelings don't care about your facts. And then Trump comes along... finally speaking to both the factual and emotional side of a bored, hopeless group of American conservatives, who just want to not be hated, or replaced in their own country, or have their money siphoned away to another foreign war, or their jobs shipped off to India, or their country to be diluted to an economic zone... Frankly, many pastors stick their head in the bible, ignoring that the foundation of the world around them is rotted and imploding. They take it for granted. Respectfully, Cary didn't bring up any of the concerns that Joel and Andrew brought up. His main concern is not seeing Jesus himself on the ballot (a standard he may not even have put on the pastors he listened to growing up). I realize I'm being a bit hyperbolic when I bring up Jesus on the ballot, but I'm trying to make a point. Obviously, Cary was nodding along to a lot of what Joel said, but it seemingly never stirred him to action to see a candidate that would cause a disruption to the feral zombie of American government (knowing what time it is). We also have a problem with these types, getting angry that "many Christians are slaves to whatever Trump says- an immoral man who subverts people's worship of Jesus to trade it in for worship of Trump." Again, not claiming Cary thinks these things, but making an observation... There's always sychophants, but it isn't wrong to fight for all of the above reasons I stated, and see a man who is hated by all the right people, to use him as a battering ram against people who hate us. The "principled" Christians are always the last people to get it because "things could be worse" and "Jesus is coming back some day", so the past, present and future is just "whatever" to them.
I don't need perfection, i need minimum accountability. I firmly believe it's better for America long term for T to lose. Not supporting him IS the practical position. Supporting him is impractical as well as not looking long term
@@cosmictreason2242 what is your list of positives if Trump loses?
@@squidward3333 you know people like Nancy Grace, Mitch McConnell, Lindsey Graham? No more of those in office. Have you not seen the impact that "none of these" has had on haley? We need that for all of them, save maybe 10 in the house and 3 in the senate
Thank you! That was very well said!
Hear! Hear!
The real frustration is that pastor Cary is over a congregation and probably telling them to do the same thing. We need more Christians voting not less. I know you are a brother, Pastor Cary. Please go back to God and talk to Him. Please don’t desert the country God gave us.
Thanks for having this discussion. Please do more. Hearing these guys go back and forth and answering some questions would be so helpful. God bless
Thank you Jon for putting together this very thought provoking discussion! It was good to hear the different views.
Although for me it didn't change my view at all. I support Trump not only for the positive reasons stated in the discussion but also by examining the positive things that were accomplished when he was president. He relocated the US Embassy to Jerusalem, greatly reduced illegal immigration (I live near the border), brought many Christians into the government and made it clear pastors can endorse political candidates, and speak about political issues from the pulpit. This is only some things he accomplished. My view is closest to Pastor Jack Hibbs of Calvary Chapel Chino Hills.
I respect these pastors and their individual decisions. And if God puts it on Cary's heart not to vote for the reasons he gave, I think he needs to obey that to honor God. However, I don't see using Exodus 18:21 as some sort of mandate to gentile believers to elect only certain kinds of leaders over a non-theocratic nation. I am more in line with the other two pastors in my views, including abortion.
Ron Paul was the guy in 2008.
Ditto for 2012. Trump was the guy for 2016 and 2020.
Less government. More Responsibility
This.
Trump did more government tho
sweet! the old intro music is back!!
I recently heard someone say that they don’t vote for the lessor of two evils but for which ever person will cause the least evil after they get into office. I think that’s perfect.
That sets you up to vote for ever greater evil by those who control the choices you're offered
This is great 👍.
You should do another in June, then October.
The next 8 months will bring forth events of great consequence.
If you refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils you are helping the campaign of the GREATER of two evils!!!
I disagree. Both sides are Lucifarians. I will not vote for a Lucifarian.
@@truthtransistorradio6716evil prevail when good men do nothing. Every kingdom of man is under the control of the evil one however the apostles still actively live for god in the Roman Empire. We still need Live for God is to do his will as stranger in a strange land. In this land we support God’s will for humanity. Is it God;s will to resist laws that support abortion, sexual immorality, redefining sex/gender, soft on law breaking, open boarders, if a man does not work he does not eat,
If not voting for trunk is voting for Biden, then is not voting for Biden voting for trump? Your logic is self defeating
Pastor Cary I love, admire, and respect you so much. But in't Exodus 18 giving qualifications for the judicial branch and not the executive branch? Is it possible that you're perhaps misappropriating the standard here for the wrong office? These are given as qualifications for judges, which is the explicit context here in Exodus 18.
The distinction did not exist then. The judges also executed criminals. And there was no separate legislature
Good
Better
Best
That's the order of these men's perspectives.
We can't be TOO perfectionist !
My goodness the first pastors standard is higher than the LORD'S Himself.
I'm glad he NOW realizes a McCain vote was a huge mistake.
How recognizing that prevents him from supporting Trump wasn't clear at all.
Pastor Joel, right on he hates DJTs J@B Advocacy.
100% agreed spot on.
I also agree DJT isn't still believing the LIES that made him adopt & hold that view.
He's just not admitting publicly how fooled he was by these Institutions that LIED to increase their power & prestige.
BUT that's modest criticism compared to the GLOBALIST MARXIST TOTAL DECONSTRUCTION of our Culture Border & Constitution that the current "S0CK PUPPET IN CHIEF" and his cadre of traitors are perpetrating.
Andrew Isker (new guy to me I like him) exactly represents my trajectory down to the timing too.
Final thought:
I'm in Texas - as is Joel - we MUST work hard locally to "rebuild the walls of Zion" and so we start locally in each church in our families, 35:48 our cities & counties and to our whole State, seeking to honor God and our common Western Christian Civilizational norms.
Don't agree. Trump has continued to move leftward. He is responsible for the most tyrannical overreach of govt in US history. He got played like a fool and cares only about reputation. He's too easy too be controlled, not by money but by grifters, media, and institutions. He is substantively no different than Bush, Romney, or McCain-excessive spending, open border, gun control, weak on marriage and family, etc. Trump is a RINO.
How can the standard of Pastor Cary be higher than the Lord’s if he is directly citing a biblical standard as recorded in scripture and given to the first republic government? He expounded this verse (exodus 18:21) but also did mention the 10 commandments as well.
Retrospectively it is easy to judge actions as foolish. Looking back, it is easy to see that men like McCain, Bush, Romney, and Trump are not fit for public office. He used McCain merely as an example and a turning point for how he would no longer justify supporting a candidate simply because the other is worse.
Trump is not a friend to Christians, and he will not save or fix this nation. Compared to Biden, he will simply destroy it in a different way (perhaps more slowly) while saying things we like and while committing actions, supporting laws, and promoting policies that will destroy America. Obviously, no candidate is fully good or fully evil, but if one does not meet a minimum standard, they do not deserve our support even if they do some good things.
Trump is entertaining and bold, but he has little conscious or loyalty. He is arrogant, vulgar, immoral, dishonest, and often vacillates on issues by what is popular. He is only pro-life so far as it is politically expedient, and he is by his own admission the “most pro-gay president in history”. He is pro-big government and anti-second amendment. He will ruthlessly assault people as worthless then immediately call them great when he gets what he wants. Likewise, he will immediately disparage anyone who opposes him regardless of how staunch an ally they were previously. He is a double minded man unstable in all his ways.
@@Kevin7M
You prove my point.
You are expecting DJT to meet your Standard, but God used Cyrus, Nebuchadnezzar who didn't even know him (at the outset, Nebuchadnezzar converted to be a Gentile Jehovah worshipper).
God CAN and does use Leaders in amazing ways.
Who are YOU to gauge what DJTs motivation for his Pro Life stance ?
Under his SCOTUS appointment Roe V Wade is overturned & states are TOTALLY FREE to ban abortion & many have.
I won't waste any more words go back to your lofty perch from which you judge others as if you're God.
Your arguments are as vapid as Pastor Gordon.
Praise GOD sanctimonious men who lack vision can't & won't overcome God's plans !
First Pastor. How is Biden working out?
Thank you for this program. It is a good idea to have this conversation now. I just want to say that God is expecting us to do the right things at all times. No time for wanting ‘punishment’ for people, which sounds like taking vengeance, instead of leaving to God. It is His will at the end. Our responsibility living in this fallen world is, for one, to vote our Christian’s values. God is the one who rise kings and takes them down. We vote our Christian’s values and be the best we can be.😊. It should not be no brainer. No to the globalists reset equipped with a religion of its own.
Really impressed with Andrew Isker's take on the purpose of Trump. I hear this from very few places and he phrases the political situation as i understand it near flawlessly
Andrew is great.
Listen to Contra Mundum if you want more of his perspective
T didn't stand in the gap for us though. Fortification, j6, wall, coof, he hasn't lifted a finger
Totally agree!
@@cosmictreason2242
Have you considered his silence was strategic in that the Cultural Marxist Globaloney crowd were SO very busy making HUGE MISTAKES and Trump just sat back and laughed, knowing they'd "OWN THEMSELVES" ?
"Never interrupt your enemy while they're making a mistake"
A wise man once said
I believe the analogy of Moses breaks down in that we do not have a theocracy or own the country now. I believe we now are invaders, soldiers that are looking to conquer. The Church must take the advancement of the Kingdom of God seriously and start ministries to create and support Christian men. Warfare is pragmatic but we are not pragmatist. We need Godly Leaders to help devise plans and stategies for advancing Gods Kingdom
I think there's a lot of truth to that statement, and I think it's where pastor Joel was coming from, to a large extent. Sadly, I don't think the country writ large sees it the way you do. They just want the saucy rhetoric and to see their enemies wince and squirm. Actually overcoming the obstacles we face isn't particularly important to them. They had the opportunity to elect a man who has done nothing BUT overcome obstacles with shrewd effective policy since the day he took office, and they overwhelmingly voted to tell him to get lost. WE'RE the PROBLEM, and our leaders are a reflection of that sad fact.
This was great! Thanks for setting this up man.
A useful discussion, giving me much to ponder as the election approaches. I was struggling with many of the points the men brought up.
Trump was the first GOP candidate who supported prosecuting women getting abortions. That made him more consistently and rationally pro-life than the entire pro-life movement (except me, since I've always held to that position).
Not only that Trumps first act in office was to ban / eliminate USA dollars from funding overseas Abortions - who KNOWS how many lives that God honoring act saved !
This discourse is a trap the left sets for you. I suggest not publicly wearing the Hugo Boss uniform your enemy lays out for you. Notice the conversation about holding doctors accountable for murdering babies doesn't come up near as often. It doesn't sound as juicy to normies as the narrative of how we're all just waiting for the Handmaid's Tale revolution and opress all the wahmen
Then you must be very disappointed (as am I) that he no longer holds that position and regards the heartbeat bill as "terrible" because it's too harsh. Trump was who he had to be to get our vote in '16 and now he is who he thinks he must be to get our vote in 2024, and he rightly assumes we're more pro-abortion now, because we are. At his core, he's about the "art of the deal." He's transactional. He'll say and do what is necessary to achieve his desired goal, which seems to be attention, votes, accolades, and results (in that order).
He's also the first R to run for president on an explicitly pro choice platform this time around
@cosmictreason2242 I hear you. But he's also the first Republican to run post Dobbs. And unfortunately the pro-life world has been caught completely unprepared somehow for the situation which Trump made happen. It was frankly pretty easy to be pro-life when it just meant saying you would nominate judges who will overturn Roe. I believe Trump will be as pro-life as he thinks the voters are willing to support, and unfortunately for whatever reason pro-life has been an election killer for the last year. We need to figure out what's going on there.
Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord. God never gave us the option to punish people for their poor votes. We are told to fight the darkness, evangelize to change hearts, pray, and work hard to love our neighbors. Politicians don’t have to respect you. Worry more about how God feels about you. They have to respect God. I hear lots of pride there and some anger. Punishment is not ours. It’s way too late for that. People will die if we don’t stop China’s Communist Party NOW! There are no other chances.
Laken Riley, the best reason to vote for Trump.
We must apply Exodus 18 when possible. But, to not choose a leader when none are technically qualified, is a misstep. So, we are choosing not to have leadership. Which makes no sense to me.
I don't see how a God fearing person can vote for such wicked people. How can you sleep at night? You are aiding and abetting the enemy.
Turmp isn't qualified tho
@@cosmictreason2242 How so? 1) He's already proven he can do the job. 2) He's already been investigated in every conceivable way by the most powerful people in the world with unlimited budget and they've found basically nothing -- I don't know if I could withstand that scrutiny. 3) He can't be bought, like all the others have been, which is why they hate him.
Continue putting old patches on new wineskins and see the tear get bigger. Exodus does not apply.
@@HaveYouTriedRumble then who was holding leverage over him to make him do watp speed and lokdwns? Or was that what he really wanted to do,? Either way, disqualified
Interesting listening to these three men. Had you ever been or lived in a New England state... I doubt that one candidate could ever meet even the first of the criteria. So, Joel's approach makes more sense to me.
I wish Andrew would turn off whatever device making that noise is...
Exodus does not apply outside a theocracy. Old patches on new wineskins are a bad idea. See Galatians, Romans, Hebrews, the Jerusalem council and everything before the Church of Thyatira went to bed with the Roman empire.
When did you originate in the USA?
@@jackblack496 I was conceived in Chicago. I was born in Cuba. I was granted legal admittance and an alien number at 1 mo old, but taken back to Cuba before I was 3 months old. I then returned as a legal POLITICAL refugee at 9yo (not the horde of economic migrants, my parents left the equivalent of millions in today's money for freedom). My father bribed the Spanish official in charge of our case by putting my mother's IUD into the official's wife (birth control was illegal under Franco). My first 6 months in this country my parents and I were homeless in the streets of gang infested NYC before the so called "great society" of LBJ which was merely a ploy to enslave the soul of blacks as Jim Crow collapsed. The most effective thing LBJ did as president was destroy the black families with "aid to dependent mothers" and other "positive liberties" which another evil man, FDR had put ibn place. I have never taken a dime of welfare, not even a student loan, nor applied under a D.I.E. (Degeneracy...oops, I meant diversity, Immorality, oops I meant Inclusion and Excremental, oops I meant Exclusion-of-cis-caucasian-and christians, err I meant Equity as defined by equal outcome rather than opportunity). Now, while biracial, I admit my skin is a couple of shades lighter than the legal immigrant Dinesh D'Souza, but I am no less hateful of the Democratic party than he. In other words, I am among those Cubans which even Ann Coulter would encourage to come. Before timespace I was written in the Book of Life by the Jewish Carpenter who built the univers. Well, OK, He was a Tekton, not exactly equivalent to a modern fine carpenter but close enough for Angelic work I suppose. Have I made myself perfectly clear? OK then, I oppose the CN for the same reason I oppose theonomy: the hermeneutics of Paul as clearly explained in many places such as Galatians as well as the warning of Christ that the law cannot be broken...[into ceremonial, civic and moral so that pastors can puick and choose from Moses] but that you must follow the least of EVERY commandment...[of every Covenant not yet fulfilled] until it is FINISHED.
OK, I have no idea why that bombast JRRodriguez has given such a convoluted answer to such a simple question. Clearly JRRodriguez is a legend in his own mind and to be avoided. ;), in case you're confused, the previous sentence is sarcasm aimed at myself inviting others to ridicule me as I deserve; being aware of total depravity and being a 5 point Calvinist who utterly rejects Covenant hermeneutics. Now, laugh, God is for you. We both deserve Hell and we are not going there so it is time to party.
@@JesusRodriguez-zy3wj cope and seethe foreigner
Every government is a theocracy
Wow. Quite honestly I’m shocked at the first pastor’s view, Cary Gordon, on this topic. Is it really a “lesser of the evils” issue regarding the candidates? I regard it as a “good versus evil” issue regarding the platforms. I find the mindset of abstaining from action more analogous to the priest and the Levite in the Good Samaritan parable - both had Old Testament biblical arguments for neglecting the dying man but who were obviously condemned by Jesus for their lack of action. The pastor also cited Deuteronomy 4, in which God is giving Israel instructions to take the Promised Land by force and purge the land of idolatry. Is that really our biblical model for Christians today? Finally, I believe Donald Trump does adequately meet the Exodus 18:21 criteria as proven in his first term. Under hypercritical scrutiny, no one ever would qualify for office.
I would love to build a library like Pastor Gordon's background someday.
I’m still not clear as to who Cary Gordon voted for and who met the criteria of Exodus 18:21.?
Also how has Trump failed to meet the criteria of Exodus 18:21?
That is truly an astonishing question. How could one be so self-deluded or so deeply in denial that he honestly (if you were being serious) needs someone to explain how Donald J. Trump utterly fails to meet the criteria of Exodus 18:21? Surely, you jest. If you ARE serious, then *you* bear the burden of proving that Trump is a genuinely God-fearing man (i.e., a person who maintains a proper reverence for God, who understands that he is accountable/answerable to Him above all, and who is committed to obeying His revealed will), a man of truth/integrity (i.e., a person who consistently tells the truth and who is trustworthy and faithful), a man who hates dishonest gain (e.g., being unwilling ever to take a bribe or do anything crooked that would benefit himself at the expense of others), and a man who has the experience/skills/gifting needed to fulfill the responsibilities of the President of the United States (which he already proved he was unable to do, particularly in the fourth year of his presidency, and the fact that his administration was literally the most dysfunctional and disorderly in U.S. history).
Before you answer, remember the kind of man you are attempting to defend/justify. We are talking about a man who is *infamous* for being an unrepentant serial adulterer, womanizer, pathological liar, egomaniac/narcissist, profanity-spewing blasphemer who doesn't think he needs God's forgiveness, reviler, swindler/fraudster, self-serving opportunist, and a *convicted* sex offender (and that's just scratching the surface). Have fun explaining how THAT scoundrel meets the criteria of Exodus 18:21!
First question asked right out of the gate took 13 minutes to not answer the question. These are the most long winded answer to a single question.
If a bad guy is breaking into your house are you going to stop and interview the police first to see if they meet your moral standard to stop the bad guy?????
Completely ridiculous and utterly irrelevant non-sequitur, especially since we . . . umm . . . don't get to elect each of our local police officers (if only!), and *thankfully* don't have to hold elections any time of the day or night or whenever we need to dial 9-1-1. Goodness, why don't you people at least TRY to think before you post? 🤦♂
can you imagine the hubris you need to name your movement/website "political epiphany" LOL this guy
And if there's one thing the church and this country can't tolerate, it's hubris.
I have COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE than Pastor Cary! This is a misnomer that devastates our capacity to change the trajectory of the country!!
I mean no disrespect, but at 13:00, I am disgusted by what Pastor Gordon has said. I could tolerate it, except for the fact that he calls it a sin to vote differently. The truth is that there are no perfect candidates. I understand what he is getting at, but the application is terrible. I have literally spent years studying history and politics, and I’m convinced that what he is suggesting would never work. There would end up being a true Christian candidate, who would get a small percentage of the vote, and who would end up splitting the conservative vote, essentially handing a victory to the left.
He is so sanctimonious and proud (in the worst way) of the fact that he threw away his vote and gave tacit approval to the horrendous stuff that have happened since 2020. In politics, the lesser evil is often the best choice. Insisting upon only voting for the few candidates that fit his narrow criteria is what causes conservatives to lose, not selling out. I’m dead sick of losing. I want to win!
When was the last time we had a "qualified" candidate to vote for? Lincoln?! Bwahahahaha.
Dead on. Gordon's view is more or less R2K nonsense that has assisted bringing America to the horrible place it is now.
I agree. What's understandable is that, for Christians like Pastor Gordon, they think they are doing what God would approve of or be most pleased with, on a personal holiness level. OK. I get that. We should all be looking to please the Lord on a daily basis, right? But what such Christians completely miss is the undeniable fact that this type of political decision-making leads to MORE power and MORE winning for all the God-haters and blasphemers!...which also leads to more suffering and more people turning away from God. I do not think that God is pleased with that!
Newsflash: We don't win down here! 😂😂😂
I mean anything that is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23). It is a biblical principle that to support a candidate that is not meeting at least a minimal biblical standard is sin. Exodus 18:21 is a pretty low bar. To not even expect candidates to be God fearing, competent, not covetous, or honest is sad. He is obviously not looking for “Jesus on the ballot” or a perfect person, but merely someone who meets these 4 criteria.
It is never foolish to trust and obey God. Faith without works is dead. He is putting his faith into action by obeying God when it does not make logical sense (1 Corinthians 3:18-19, Proverbs 14:12-16). Situational ethics and the lesser of 2 evils will not save America. It will only cause it to decline in different ways or at a different rate. We are both tired of losing, but even when we “win”, both parties betray us and work against our interests to various degrees. I am tired of supporting people that hate me, betray me, and offend my God with their actions. I am standing for something good, not just opposing something evil. How evil would a person have to be for you to not support them? At what point is the lesser of 2 evils too evil or does that even matter in a space of absolute relativity?
This needs to be said: Christians, don't let anyone intimidate you or guilt-trip you into believing you are "throwing your vote away" by obeying God and following your (biblically informed) conscience. The Bible plainly teaches that whatever is NOT done in faith is sin (Romans 14:23). Here's the application in the realm of politics: If you cannot confidently vote for a particular candidate (and what he/she represents) with a clear conscience before our infinitely holy God, then it would be *sin* for you to vote for that person. Therefore, the bullies (that's what they are) who accuse you of "throwing your vote away" are actually ridiculing/condemning you for NOT sinning, which is to say, they are actually ridiculing/condemning you for obeying God, which is quite evil. That's the truth. (They are also failing to trust in God's sovereignty and providence regarding the outcome of elections, but that's a separate issue.)
It’s also a sin to not love your neighbor. You may be loving God but if you aren’t voting for one of the two most likely to win candidates, you are turning your back on the evil that will be done to the citizens of this country. Much better to vote for one of the two most likely to win who will do the least evil once in office. Politics matter because policies matter because people matter!
It was really great to hear these 3 sides. I voted for Trump twice bc I felt there was no other choice. Like Joel I'm really disappointed with him on how he handled Covid & then backing off on his abortion stand. I would have rather had DeSantis as the candidate but that's not to be. I thank God for all 4 of these Christian men.
Punish the people by helping our enemies win... this is how you love your neighbor apparently LOL
Contra Carrie Gordon: America has not been ruined by people voting for the lesser of the evils but rather by people voting for the greater of the evils! And secondarily America has been ruined by passive Christians with this kind of thinking who were willing to allow the greater of the evils to win.
I guess you could say I understand him a bit because for me also the thought that I voted for John McCain in 2008 continues to give me a sick feeling. It comes when I think about the fact that he cared more for illegal aliens than for American citizens but tried to mislead people about that in his campaign, cheated on his wife and lied about it, went to his grave vehemently cursing conservative talk radio hosts and Ted Cruz and many people far better than himself, and even barred Sarah Palin from his funeral. I know that a John McCain presidency would not have been a good time for America but Barack Obama's presidency was much worse for America and for righteousness than McCain's would have been. In fact if McCain had been elected and filled the two Supreme Court vacancies, there is a real chance that the Supreme Court would have ruled differently in 2015 and we would not be stuck today with the horror of marriage wickedly redefined by the government and the impact that has inevitably had on public attitudes.
No I will not repent of not embracing this pastor's doctrinal error about voting.I deplore it and R2K Theology and call upon all Christian opinion leaders who promote these things to repent of them.
53:28 this was powerful.
in 2016, I supported Darrell Castle who was an Exodus 18 candidate! Where were these guys then? They were AWOL!!!!
If this is three perspectives on voting for Trump does that make it a triperspectival approach?
Perhaps 'three perspective on supporting Trump' would be more accurate?
This was a cool discussion!
I just don’t think most people care anymore… it’s an interesting time and I’m not sure how to make people care… but I still care, and maybe if enough people care, that care will get contagious!🤷♂️
Christians do need to see voting as a civic duty, I think, and I think we all should be focused on ensuring our elections are secure and accurately reflecting the actual vote.
Pastor Gordon wants to punish the ungodly but while doing so he punishes the godly. I think Joel made the best arguments for his position…loving your neighbor (ie wife and children closest neighbors)
Same
Judgment must begin at the house of God
Since no Christian who is not apostate could possibly vote for Biden, the Christian has to choose between Trump or a no-chance-to-win 3rd-Party candidate. For those who are considering the latter option, ask yourself this--if enough of the brethren follow me in doing this that Biden wins, has my demand for perfection in a candidate backfired?
Do you remember 2020? Trump did more damage than any president before him.
What you just described is called "common sense". Unfortunately, too many Christians would lash out and call it "pragmatism". I disagree. American Christians do a great job at producing "throw-away votes".
Or you could trust the wisdom of God by obeying him even if it seems foolish (1 Corinthians 3:18-19, Proverbs 14:12-16).
Pragmatically it makes sense to support a lesser of 2 evils by arguing that God can use any wicked person for his purposes. However, this reasoning just proves you do not trust God. It also creates a situation where people are often merely fighting against something instead of standing for a true standard like the 10 commandments.
Only God can save this nation. He does work through imperfect men, but he does not need or want you to disobey him so that he can save America. Obedience is better than sacrifice, and to sin so that God could have the glory is incongruous with the work of the cross and when Jesus said go and sin no more.
We have all sinned and broken the 10 commandments, but whether we are actively living in sin and continue to break them without repentance or whether we are transformed makes all the difference. Any person running for office that obviously lives a life of sin will only further the degradation of this nation (even if he/she says things we like). No candidate is perfect, and neither is any candidate completely evil. However, we must set a minimum standard and stand for that instead of merely falling to whatever level the lesser evil occupies.
@@Kevin7M-- Show me a better candidate than Trump who any realistic chance of winning, and I'll vote for him. But where do you get off accusing me of disobeying God because I use my God-given wisdom to vote to remove the more evil candidate and party from office? I trust God, but I do not presumptuously expect Him to perform an electoral miracle. I don't care for either man (I was for DeSantis), but at least Trump is open to hearing input from Godly men when making policy decisions; Biden (when his mind is even working) is closed to any ideas not of the anti-God Left.
@@Kevin7M Excellent points, Kevin7M! Very well argued.
Im really confused as to y you all think a candidate has to pass your litmus test as to who is worthy. None of us is without sin. Not one! So dont look at it as voting for the lesser of evils, but who will contribute to a country that best aligns with my values and what I want for my children.
And who will cause the least evil once in office!
0 to contradiction in one sentence
For some reason, I’m hearing “sanctimonious” pablum, not principled truth!
Exactly the same as the religious leaders of Christ s day. Declared personal holiness so that you can't soil your hands with a less than perfect vote; but lift not one finger to actually help people other than talk. Yeah, things among most religious leaders have changed little in 2k years.
Keep listening the Pastors perspectives improve the 3rd guy Andrew Isker is Fabulous.
@@psalm2forliberty577 I agree, I was responding to one of them in particular who is too "holy" to vote for Nebuchadnezzar
@@JesusRodriguez-zy3wj
Good deal Brother.
Apt metaphor, as Nebuchadnezzar's conversion (isn't PUT!N also one?) and his continual presence "in office / on throne" - despite his 7 year 'herb fast in the field' flies in the face of pastor sanctimonious !
I've heard Pastor Gordon do great on resisting COV!DIOCY mandates BUT he's WAY out of his depth here.
Pastor Joel is 🎯 got it right "DJT Wrecking Ball".
Plus I am a Libertarian Covenant Reformed Postmillennial guy so Andrew Isker & his political sagacity is a breath of fresh air.
I just bookmarked the top UA-cam vids with him & many have Pastor Joel & Douglas Wilson too - gonna watch em all soon.
It seems like Pastor Gordon wants to "reign as King over Iowa Christians", t/to be their kingmaker, bragging about who he's counseled & had over.
Pretty heady stuff !
To the extent that he's wise & Biblical, good for him.
But I think he needs to hear from Andrew Isker & Pastor Joel a TON more.
Admitting he was fooled by McCain & Romney just a decade back tells me he literally lacks the Realpolitic for God's Glory that those of us who have 50 years experience have learned.
How were these 3 pastors chosen to speak on this topic? I would like to hear from Jeff Kliewer who Jon youve had on tjis podcast before and who has written books on how a christian should vote example Blood Red Church. I wasnt that thrilled with these men's views.
Yes
I've only heard the first guy but he didn't explain how Trump didn't qualify for his Ex. 18:21 criteria. Disappointing.
I guess he just assumed that folks were paying attention in 2020 and have been listening over the past year to Trump articulate his current views on abortion, the Rainbow Jihad, and the jab.
The presidency is a job.
I care as much about the personality, likability, and rhetorical panache of the president as I do those same characteristics in my mechanic, the guy who grills my steak at a restaurant, and my mailman.
I hire the president to do a job, to utilize the power given him to faithfully execute the laws of this country. In short, all I care about is what the guy will do with the power entrusted him consistent with the Constitution of this nation. If his resume is one of efficient and effective utilization of power, he’s the guy. I couldn’t care less about much of anything else.
Christians would save themselves a lot of needless anxiety and heartache if they’d stop convincing themselves that Jesus is on the ballot; he isn’t and will never be. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and someday he’ll come with the clouds to reclaim his Kingdom, and it won’t require an election.
Until then we do the best we can with what we have to work with, and that is always choosing the lesser of two evils.
3 great minds. Very helpful conversation.
Curious about their thoughts on RFK Jr.
That’s easy. He’s pro choice. 👎🚫
@@kaylar3197 agreed.
And still Democrats. ‘Nuff said.
10 minutes in and WTH is Carey Gordon talking about????
So you threw away your votes and let the person get in who would do the most damage to people. I don’t think God is going to like that.
Does Gordon realize that Israel didn't live up to those standards. now he thinks he's moses?
You sound like you think the ot is irrelevant today
@@cosmictreason2242 you assume to much !
@@pamwingo4650 no, you do
No he's saying it's the New Covenant we love God's Law it's written in our minds & on our hearts.
Yet we don't freak out disqualifying EVERY candidate by imposing a Standard that EVEN ISRAEL UNDER MOSES didn't meet.
As Joel or Andrew said hitting the right note, "I'm not voting for Trump to be Pastor or Elder"
DJT is basically a Jehu or a Cyrus a wild unpredictable man who RESPECTS & HONORS God & Americas Highest Law & Traditions and goes after Evildoers like the Epstein crowd hammer & 🔨 Tong.
He's a Pit Bull when you need one !
Do Three Pastors With Different Perspectives on Voting for Biden next.
No
TGC already had this
@@SK-mz4cq what exactly did TGC do
No, they’d be Democrats, fake Christians.
8 And his [f]master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own [g]kind than the sons of light. 9 And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the [h]wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings.
"you know"
Are we being click-baited? 🤔
EDIT: Sorry, Jon- I thought this was Joel Webbon. I don't consider you a click-baiter 😊
Appreciate these men and their thoughtful discourse.
Pastor Cordons view resonates with me. How about we DEMAND condidates with moral backbone? Pastor Webbons lack of Scripture was disappointing.
Let's Go Brandon
The number of times Pastor Andrew says "they" as a referent is troubling. e.g. "Look at what 'they' had to do to dislodge him."
Yes, it *does* sound conspiratorial. And it's unbecoming of a Christ follower.
and here I thought that cringe libertarian views were just for 30 something hipster guys
I'm with Joel. We need a bulldog. Mike Pence was billed as a Christian of character who was impotent. Mike Johnson is supposed to be a genuine Christian but keeps capitulating. We cannot wait for a perfect candidate while our country is on the brink. Additionally, if we abandon Trump, we will solidify lawfare as a permanent tactic to be used against any conservative candidate.
Mike Pence caved as Governor and signed a bill to allow men in women’s restrooms. Haven’t liked him since!
You've already abandoned him by voting for him. DeSantis was his only hope of getting pardoned
@@cosmictreason2242 If Trump gets in, he can pardon himself.
@@donawyo he could have before he left office. Scotus has ruled on that in the past. You can't pardon before a crime but you can Pardon after a crime but before charges. He did not because he doesn't understand the law, but DeSantis does. And DeSantis has higher favorables against Biden than trump. Good luck getting him in with no changes to the process
@@cosmictreason2242 I don’t know what will happen on that. I was a DeSantis voter too. Sadly, he didn’t win. Now, we back our guy. Praying God will take care of the rest.
anti situational ethics = don't be wise like a serpent
really foolish
not 15 million, a hundred million guys!
I might vote if I knew who is counting the votes?
Please vote even if you don’t. The more people turn out, the less they can cheat. Inundate the polls!
If you don’t vote, you are part of the problem!
When my nephew said, "How could a Christian vote for Trump?" I said to him, "God used Sampson."
Your nephew must not know much about the alternative…
I'm embarrassed for you that you're not embarrassed to say that
I will not vote for either. No vote for a lesser evil.
How about a vote for the one who will do the least evil once in office since Jesus can’t be on the ballot this time?
Let’s not forget Ron DeSantis also gave a onesie gift to Dave Rubin and his “husband” to congratulate the two children they bought from renting out a women’s womb. So there are none that fit the Exodus 18:21 criteria. My opinion is that you have to work with what you have in this post-modernist nation.
This second speaker said he might vote for chaos; these political parties are arranged to bring in the supra-state. The Protocols explain this in great detail.
All due respect to the Pastors, I LOVE the topic, but too much sanctimony on this one…😕
Save our children, families, and neighbors lives. Trump 2024. It's the only choice that God has given us to politically restrain the evil.
Amen! A voice of reason!
Pastor Gordon should run for president! I'd vote for you brother
Much easier to sit back and demand perfection than help lift the burden so, of course he won't run. Thankfully, when Nebuchadnezzar, an arrogant pagan, stood against the deep state; Daniel was not demanding perfection before getting his hands dirty.
Consider that Christ has far less harsh words for adulterers, and thieves and so on the han for the religious leaders who thought themselves too perfect to actually help.
I haven't even been operating on the Exodus 18 logic, my single issue is the cv2020, otherwise I completely agree that we need to be willing to lose badly until the Rs start doing what we want or they get replaced
We are losing badly now and do you realize that losing badly hurts people? We are one Election away from losing our country to the CCP. Communists will take away our vote and hurt us more. Politics matter because policies matter because people matter.
M😊oml
I'm with Joel Webbon!
Isn’t this Cary guy the one who dressed up with his wife and kids to mock disabled homeless people at his church’s fall festival? When I ask myself ‘what would Jesus do?’, mocking homeless people is the first thing that comes to mind.
I doubt that he did that.
Situational ethics is a cancer that ensures the destruction of civilization. By taking the situational ethics route, we become like frogs consenting to an increase of one degree at a time in the kettle instead of twenty, when we should jump out of the kettle altogether (I.e., stop playing the situational ethics game) and stop boiling ourselves to death. People tend not to like hearing that, because it reminds them of all of the times they voted against their own interests. There’s no doubt a healthy (or, I should say, unhealthy) dose of sunk cost fallacy at play, too. The nagging feeling that we’ve devoted too much to stop now- no one wants to feel that way. Nevertheless, it’s true. We have played ourselves.
God has not commanded us to keep doing what we’ve always done. He has given us an objective standard. His laws are like castle walls that keep us within the bounds of His perfect moral governance. When we strive to do His will, we reflect His nature and character. When we strive to do our will apart from His, we reflect the adversary’s. Thinking that we are wiser, cleverer, more strategic than the Omniscient reveals that we are fools, and not only that, but also pawns of the enemy.
Assuming we keep trudging down this road (barring any mass repentance on the American Church’s part) the “choice” will someday be between a Democrat who wants the age of consent lowered to 9, and a Republican who wants it lowered to 10. State-enforced homosexuality versus free market homosexuality. The Republican will say that he doesn’t abide bigots who are bestiality-phobic, and try to prove his congeniality by hiring bestiality practicers and hugging the bestiality-inclusive pride flag.
If you think that’s crazy or far off, you haven’t been paying attention, and you haven’t learned from history. And you don’t understand the lengths to which Satan will go to mock a nation once founded upon Biblical principles.
God gave us the duty to vote. Few countries have that right. Vote for the person who might win who will commit the least amount of evil in the job. We only get to vote for those on the ballot. We should do our duty and vote for the one who will hurt our neighbors the least.
Bravo, sir. Bravo! I'm grateful to know that at least ONE commenter understands Pastor Gordon's argument. Most of the people commenting here are ignorant about Duverge's Law (situational ethics/moral consequentialism) and are completely blind to the point Cary's trying to make, but YOU get it.