It's odd because there are times where it feels so much simpler and safer in a way to just see what the tribe wants me to do, yet other times I like to see what the tribe wants and then do the opposite for whatever reason.
Agree. This seems like this would be a DD thing. As a Di, it never even occurs to me to ask someone their opinion about what I should do, and I've always been confused by people who ask me what they should do. My immediate response is always, "Well, what do YOU think/want?" because I don't know why my opinion should have any bearing on something that affects them, not me. I find the whole situation incredibly foreign. When unhealthy, however, I have moments where I feel lost decision-wise, and want to ask people for advice- although I still usually don't. Then I feel really lost, like I've become unmoored and am floating around without a clear sense of self.
As a Ti dom- I've found this new amazing discovering called.... asking other people what they think of my ideas. And I actually listen sometimes... it's great ;-).
Thank you for that example, I'm definitely tribe above self😀 I make up my mind on what I want and I keep wandering around asking my family and friends what I should get, but secretly wishing that they advise me to get what I wanted in the first place. If they advise me to not buy what I want I feel broken, and then I start thinking "should I buy what I want or get what the tribe recommended?"
What MBTI type can I be? I'm really undecided. I've got many different results going from INTP to ESFP. All I know is that I'm a Perceiver. No doubt about that.🤘 Yes, I've read the functions but it didn't help me at all.
Most people can't figure out their type on their own. Being objectively typed is the only real way to know, or asking feedback from people who really know you and can be candid. First step is to figure out if you are an observer or a decider: ua-cam.com/video/V6_QfwX8Q8U/v-deo.html
Observer + Tribe means you're either an Oi + De type (SiFe, SiTe, NiFe, NiTe), or an Oe + De type (SeTe, SeFe, NeTe, NeFe). Find a video where Dave explains the animals and see if you relate more to Blast or Play. The Oi/De types are Blast first. The Oe/De types are Play first :)
I believe I am an INFJ Ni/Ti - but I often ask other people about their decisions so I can 1) map their decision process, 2) skip the horrible part of gathering sensory data, and 3) be reminded of things or discover perspectives that I might overlook. Then I will still go about making my own decision that best suits my situation. Whenever a sales consultant comes to me I am happy for them to engage me, but I tell them I never make a decision on the spot: they can show me the scope of their range all they like, that's useful, but I will retreat away and hone in on the decision that is right for me in the end.
I was with you up until you said "I am happy for them to engage me". Is sales person garlic a thing? I want every business to have a greeter with a quick-download/install app that I can use to scan products to see an infographic or something. Watch me from a distance if you don't trust me, I might eventually have a question anyway.
Yes. If I could have it my way I would prefer to listen to sales agents talk to a third party and just osmosis the info in. But I have worked in product promotions in the past so I have a life-story that makes me sympathetic to the plight of sales people. In supermarkets I force myself to stop and chat to the samplers just because they usually go four hours with people saying "No". And I would only ever be in a shopping centre if I had budgeted the energy resources to do so in advance. I don't wander into a shop willy-nilly ;)
Excellent points. Most of my work history is in retail (certainly not out of preference), never commision work though, thankfully. I tend to pick up things other customers drop/leave-behind while shopping, out of habit.
That's sweet to hear. I think perhaps in terms of religion and philosophy and psychology I feel the way you have described. I don't talk about it anymore because people are wedded to the ideas that they are skilled at, rather than to the ones that might be more accurate
man the more videos you do about this stuff the more sure i am about my self typing. for the longest time i've been doubting myself but now i know i'm just one of those from "half the population that doesn't fit in the system" kind, and it made typing myself much more easier. thanks
I'm totally tribe above self as an ESFJ. When I needed to find a new car insurance company, I totally went into social media asking everyone their experience with the best auto insurance. It helped!
I think independence, and self reliance comes first. They say a chain is as strong as it's weakest link. I see dependence on others as something to be resolved, or else your problems become someone elses. You can't put a fire out by spreading it around. You cannot contribute strengths if you're not self sufficient enough to be strong to begin with. If you don't have boundaries, the tribe will take advantage of you.
I’ve found for tribe>self people, it’s 10:0 for exfjs, 8:2 for isxj’s, 7:3ish for extj’s, and 6-5:5-4 for inxj’s. Te-Users do want advice from the council, but I’ve found they can be a lot more unilateral in decision making and especially for xxtj’s who will make the most reasonable decision but won’t really taken everyone’s feelings into account like FJ’s do. I also think inxj’s out the the tribe>self people are the most likely to discount the opinions of others and do what Ni-De is telling them to do. At least out of the J’s, I think you might be overemphasizing how much the exxp’s will listen and take advice from others(albeit it’s Di-De, but in the middle). They’re not as self-oriented as ixxp’s but they can be just as flippant about making decisions of their own.
It’s funny because this didn’t hit home for me until I asked the question “Am I a tribe guy?” Or a self guy? Which one does my life revolve around? If I really took an objective look at that about 8 years ago, I would have known probably instantly that I am tribe above self, hence I could not be an INTP just based off of that. I think a lot of people type themselves on what they idolize (eg: super smart INTP) instead of what is objectively true
So true dude. That's why the online tests can be so unreliable (plus the questions are crap). Many people will look at how they want to be rather than how they really are. It's also tough to see all the patterns in your life cause you live it everyday (micro scale). Whereas other people you can easily see the patterns they fall into over time (macro scale). MBTI is more about the macro, big picture patterns, rather than micro, day to day fluctuations. I, for instance, always tested INTJ and loved the description and everything. After doing research though I've learned there are strong biases in the MBTI community in favor of intuitive types, which made me reluctant to explore the sensing types and their "stupidity." Why would you wanna be a type that's described as dumb? I now find myself to be more of an intellectual ISTP, and view these things from a purely objective stand point. Everyone is unique within their type.
So funny I was like "err I'm reeally self above tribe, why no...so I'm reeally intp i guess? But-" and I read someone WANTING to be intp (cause they arent) xD
this made transitioning so hard. I knew for sure I wanted it but I'm always battling what others will think. I'm Fi and know my values, especially as I mature I gain clarity and confidence here. But I am so worried what others will think and will feel like shit if what I want / I express about myself is vetoed by the tribe. I'll get so upset that I'll want to cut those people out of my life forever when I probably imagined the rejection in the first place. I care so much and I hate it, a lot of my life is trying to not care and do my own thing. Its what I want, but its the hardest thing to do. This is a story not particularly uncommon in the world.
I'm so self above tribe that I can't comprehend asking before or after a decision. I'm in my own little world. That being said if someone randomly gives me advise I will think about it and I might listen it it feels right to me.
I usually only ask for other people's opinion as a tie breaker when I'm conflicted about something as a way to see blind spots or to get another perspective. Even then, I'll still make the last call whether it agrees or not with people's opinion or social values, as long as the arguments make sense to me.
Everybody takes both into account, but one is your primary motivation and the other is simply a constraint on that. Following Self Values (Fi) is what I want (Ne-Fi ENFP) but I glance at Tribe Reasons (Te) to make sure I can get away with it.
I'm in love with these videos. The way you explain this is so simple but also accurate, while the convoluted anecdotal ones just leave me more confused. I thought I was INFP for about a decade, and so far watching your videos have narrowed it down to ExxP. The thing that really rules out INFP for me about this video is the lack of strength in my pattern of prioritizing self. Of course I can only see my perspective of myself, but while I have a tendency to prioritize self, I like to keep my options open. I like to listen to the tribe's reasons or values because sometimes I'll discover I agree with them, but maybe more often than not I'll review them and end up going with my own. Before, say, age 16 I over identified with self and rejected tribe. Such a strong individuality streak that made it seem stupid to consider anything other than Fi-dom. In my 20s, it's a conflict I've already mostly resolved and have balanced.
Hmm. I think I'm an IxxJ. I do constantly "research" by asking people what they think about what I'm deciding... but I "feel" like I do that because I suck at "seeing" or noticing things. Other people are much better at that than I am (my spouse for one). So I ask them what is important to them, but then I weigh all those individual answers internally and decide whether what they've noticed/observed will be important in my life.... is that tribe above self?! I also have "favorite" sounding boards (or people that I believe are very good at offering facts or opinions). These are people I deem "trustworthy" and I go to consistently.
So I'm the type of person that knows what I want. I do end up asking the tribe for other insights for factors I have not thought of or realized yet. But I'm only asking for their input since I know others have experience. I don't actually care about going with their suggestions from a "popularity" stand point. It's merely to see if theres other features or things I dont know about or haven't thought of. I am not the type that goes along with a popular opinion just to fit in- INTJ
Now I see why IP types are called “indecisive”, I always wondered how so many people pinned that down. Thanks for the clarification. I have a lot of respect for De deciders. Is it anecdotal to say they must be more humble than Di?
I can see why you'd think that, more open minded in theory at least. They could be really close minded when it comes to following the tribe though, thinking things have to be followed a certain excepted way. That being said, I find the Di people Dave was describing as an extreme annoyance haha the kinda people who don't listen to anyone and wonder why they keep messing stuff up... De people, at least the nice ones, are way more enjoyable to be around cause they care to listen about what others say and respond accordingly. I'm all about being flexible in life, if someone has a better opinion (with evidence) I'll totally listen.
My twin bother is a ISFP.I am a ENFJ we do a lot of work ware we have to thick as one to get the job done. Most of the time it seems to be the bast of both worlds.
Hoping others will chime in to help verify. Thinking it's going to be less a '10>1' or '101 or more TRIBE members to get a single INFP to realize they are not INFJ. Even after that, some still won't budge. Or one could ask: How many TRIBE members does it take to prove to an ESFP that they are not an ENFP? Hoping this video might get alot of the mistypes in the community to see the mistakes they've made in their own type.
Admittedly, I'm still not 100% on board with the sub-type thing that Dave Powers, the INTP's at CognitiveTypes.com & Socionics use. I still believe that alot of the so-called: 'subtype' thing can still be explained by mistyping. Which would make the mistyping thing a bigger issue than most would like to accept.
@@ToddHa i don't see any reason why someone can't be self above tribe and still organize more than they gather. The jumpers do make sense in my opinion.
What if I sometimes feel the need to ask the tribe's opinion only to see if it lines with my own? I internally don't really accept their feedback or reconsider my decision anyway. It always pisses off others because I ask for their opinion and then I never change my mind anyway. I do look for reviews when buying something but when my friends recommend a product or movie/song that they liked I'm never interested. Oh and I always feel the need to read the comments below EVERYTHING, video, news.. and when there aren't comments I feel kind of empty.
Most likely this is your saviour De asking everyone's opinion and your demon Di telling you your own opinion. It might be the case if you're constantly hoping the tribe agrees with your decision by asking beforehand but then your demon Di having the last call.
If Di is my demon would I feel okay with myself when I follow what I want? In the end I always do what I want because it's what makes me feel okay with myself even if the tribe doesn't agree. It hurts that they don't, but it's my life. I would feel oppressed if I felt like I was following someone else's decision
Well it's impossible to be accurate through the comment sections and your latest comment makes me doubt my 'diagnosis'. The only way to diagnose yourself is to first learn to type others from Dave
I'm definately self above tribe. I only ask other people for suggestions/opinions to speed up decision-making. They provide information so I don't have to waste as much time; I'll probably end up doing my own research anyway though. If I could come up with an efficient info-dump research database program, I'd eliminate the Q&A step entirely. If I haven't fully decided what I want *THEN* I'll ask others their preferences in related areas, determine if I typically agree/disagree with them, ask about the specific thing I'm considering, and decide accordingly. Example: I see a trailer for a movie that looks like it could be really good or really bad. I'll ask people that have already seen it what they think of specific similar genre movies first. If we seem to like the same movies in that genre, then I expect to agree on the one I'm considering.
Noximilian Colxen Do get off on trolling or something? Genuinely curious as to why you like to consistently stir the pot in these comment sections? Just doesn’t seem like a productive use of time to me to be honest. I’m sure you will have a sharp tongued reply.
I have no idea how anything I said would suggest I'm trying to be an INFx and although I'm certainly not an ENTJ, my life might be better if I was. "only have stupid friends who can't give you good advices so you rely on yourself." Opinions aren't good advice unless they, and I, tend to share preferences on relavent things. When it comes to things I know nothing about, sure I'll ask more informed people their opinion and likely end up using it too. "What you should do is search for an INTJ+ENTP friend." The ENTP I knew best was annoying as fuck, no thanks. That type seems to be interesting at a distance, or if they're mellow and have plenty of other people they can hang around without me. I can't think of anyone I'd expect to be an INTJ, except that is one of the types I've identified as in the past, so I might get along well with one. "ENTJ base everything on their feelings, on what they WANT." Did you even watch the video? Self vs Tribe is *about* "what I want" vs "what they want" or think I should want. It's also about needs but I don't remember as much emphasis being on that in the video.
Regardless of what "types" they are, people who go extreme with too much gusto will always be a pain in the neck of others, which backfires on them in the long run anyway. Functions do not apply. Discernment is the key.
Omg I hate when people ask me something and then go to the next person. This also explains why people seem to do what they want regardless- thought they were just bullheaded.
This is really interesting. I usually know what I want and go for that, yes, but I also have the issue of "asking several people about the same problem," sometimes even over and over.
Niha You could be a double decider (EXXP or IXXJ) then! What do you ask others for? What they like/value or their reasons? That could point to whether you're an Fe or Te respectively. With you already knowing what you want, it seems you're Fi/Ti over Te/Fe respectively.
I am a little shaky/uncertain when it comes to how I am "being seen by the tribe" so I relate to that for the Te inferior/demon that he talks about in his videos. So yeah, my questions are essentially trying to gauge who am I to them? I know how I feel and perceive things, but how is it appearing to them?
Niha I guess that is Te as third or the inferior function. As an ISFP myself, I do feel very conscious when people can directly see me, be it physically or on social media like Facebook or Instagram where people actually know me. The fear of being misunderstood is there, but I definitely don't change myself just because someone tells me to, that's strong Fi I guess. Holding up your values strongly is Fi.
The way I work is I make a decision and once everyone else comes to tell me their opinions, I tel them why they’re wrong, it’s especially annoying when I think someone else holds an opinion because they’ve never thought about WHY they hold that opinion, they were just taught that that’s how it should be
That example of Self above Tribe was basically me chosing to buy a Nokia Lumia Windows Phone when everybody was going for Android phones 😂 But you know, it was a Nokia, and I'm clumsy as hell so I needed a resistant phone, and it's functionalities seemed good...And let's say at least it WAS resistant... 😂 More seriously, if it's something that only concerns me, I don't always ask for someone else's opinion, at least not for buying expensive things because to me I need to be comfortable with these things' functionalities in a daily context and I'm the only one who knows what I'm more comfortable with. Most of the time I ask for opinions about clothing, make up, things related to image, advices about artistic choices,etc. But if someone else is concerned, I really overdo it. So yeah, I'm still kinda confused about if I'm prioritizing more "Self above Tribe" or "Tribe above Self".
It’s very difficult to tell whether I’m considering the tribe because they’re my saviour function, or if I’m worried about how they will react (demon).
I've gotten better about asking the tribe because If I don't I'll write everything in my band and yeah people hate when I do that. Have I asked for advice before yes I think we all do. Have I considered other points of view yes do I still do what I want yes
Getting other people's advice is always good, especially when making music. It's hard to find a good balance between being authentic and following what others want though. IMO follow your own ideas, and ask the RIGHT PEOPLE when you need it. I make music and asking people to listen that don't like the certain genre is very disheartening haha You can just feel the fakeness in songs where people aren't expressing their authentic self, like a lot of pop or even now with mainstream electronic music. It's more about the fad (tribe) than personal expression (self)
The wierd thing is I know what I want always do what I want but if I'm confused about something that I don't have knowledge on I'll ask the tribe and I'll hear them.all out but I still choose what I want to do. For example I know what type of guitar I'll go for it. I know what I want my band to sound like. I like a certain of lyrics so I write in a way that feels right. But I suck at relation ship stuff and that's where I'll ask the tribe what to do because I'm a noob at that stuff.
Pettersony Strawman I agree, I'd say my biggest insecurity and the biggest insecurities of a majority of people is their 4th function. Its their biggest imbalance
What about the people who ask you when to take the clothes out of the wash and when to put the clothes in the wash, since they cant decide anything without first asking the tribe?
As an IP, I always ask the tribe… after the fact because I didn’t think about where I was going to put it. I was thinking more about the 1,000,000 other benefits it was going to have in life.
Question: is an instinct to immediately look up reviews before purchasing something (such as a car) a signifier for validating the tribe? and if so, how would I able to tell if I am looking at the tribes reasons vs their values while looking at reviews?
Are you looking for the reviewers opinion or facts about the product/movie? I'd expect facts-oriented would be "reasons" and might not be tribe related. If you look at reviews for opinions, that's almost certainly a tribe focus. You care about what they think rather than what they *know* (so you can form your own opinion).
Gaian Entertainment definitely opinions. before I go eat out or I purchase something from Amazon I refuse to go to places or purchase products that have low or negative reviews. I just don’t know if when I read these reviews I’m looking at the values or the reasonings from the people.
This is just a shot in the dark but how do you respond/react to negative reviews of things/places you liked and positive reviews of things/places you disliked?
Since I think I have this issue too, what would it mean if the response to negative reviews of things I liked would be "No way, it's impossible, how can they not see how amazing it is?!" and the response to positive reviews for things I disliked was "Whatever, I wonder what they see in this thing?" however for things I absolutely hated the response would be more like "These people are crazy, how is it possible to like this thing?"
Federica, that sounds like Self over Tribe to me. In each of those examples you seem to hold fairly strongly to your original opinion. I'd expect someone who places the Tribe above the Self would question their original viewpoint in each case, possibly changing their mind to match the tribe. Your examples instead suggest "my opinion is most likely right" with the possibility of "maybe they're right too" - instead of "maybe they're right.. what did I miss?" or something to that effect.
I'm guessing these points won't work for double deciders? I find the first only possible for people who lack a sense of self? The second possible for people who are oblivious to Fe and Te. Surely, decisions are dependent on a wide range of reasonings and tribal input. Say you have strong values in one area it is going to be much harder for the tribe to convince you. If you don't have strong values but would like a certain thing then all tribe above self people will value what others want over what they want? It's a hard one because I'm not sure it works like this🤔. I find Te and Fe dominants usually ask what others want and then manipulate the situation to do what they want. The unconscious function is a pivot and controls every decision. It is what the person secretly wants. Je secretly want to do what they want. Ji secretly wants everyone to be happy with their decisions. Pe secretly want to know the truth. Pi secretly want to know everything. I think Fe in general is more likely to say No to themselves and keep everyone happy (unless there are values or an agenda), and Fi is likely to say, I want this and it doesn't matter if it's what you want because I can't see any value in what you want. The value being tribe over self. Then there is Te over Fi which will work to make the person see the most all round efficient way. So this type is unconcerned with what others want. Unconcerned with what they like. They're concerned mainly with what will bring in the right results. This can look like tribe above self. As getting the right results involve being accepted by society.
I seem to be very balanced in this regard(I'm surprised, "balanced" is not usually a word I would use to describe myself) -- very strong sense of what I want, but also like to talk about it with various people to get their thoughts, just for the hell of it. Usually just do what I wanted in the first place, but leave room for the possibility that someone could save me from a horrible decision. (INTJ) I recoil from even the appearance of just following the herd, let alone letting the masses dictate what I like or engage in, so in the end I think I'm self above tribe.
Maybe they're the kinda people who use the comment section. Think about it, it's all tribe. That's my best explanation haha UA-cam in general is very tribe oriented IMO, hearing other people's ideas.
I like most of the definitions, but find them difficult to apply to the real world. Maybe I'm doing something wrong haha he's mostly painting broad strokes
So... ENTJ jumper then? ENTJ with self above tribe? Because I still have Te, so is this like the masculine / feminine? ENTJ with feminine Te, masculine Fi? Is that a thing?
@doschirak_drohne Very insightful comment, thank you. This is *exactly* what I'm thinking the ENTJ does: De _for the sake of_ Di. (At least this based on what _I_ feel _I personally_ do.) I'm thinking the key is in the masculine and feminine here. Savior Te, but it's feminine to my masculine Fi. Because just as you mentioned Ni and Se. Definitely a jumper (Se way too much) *but* I _do_ have those problems of over-planning. So I'm thinking that would be Se savior, but Ni masculine. (Because even though all I do is take in new information, while I'm doing it, in my mind it's all for the sake of "planning".) Very weird. Either both savior functions are feminine (so fucking weird)... Or, I'm typing myself upside down, and in reality am an ISFP (therefore actually _am_ self over tribe) and everything's backwards. Very possible ahhahaahaha
what if we only ask 1 to 3 people? It sounds like gathering information before making important decisions is somehow a sign of indecision or codependency. If you're making a decision about something you're not very familiar with, isn't it normal to ask people you trust that you know have a better understanding of that thing to ask for their input? And then decide based on the gathered info? (yes, I'm late to the party, I had to run an errand).
ENTP here. Can't tell what I am. I ask people when I can't find the best solution myself, and I mean.. I tell everyone my reasoning and convince them I'm right because I just sound sooooo reasonable. Then because they're stupid I doubt my own decision because they bought it and now I don't know where to go from there. When I ask people for their advice I'd like to hear something rational and also personally accurate... But more often than not, it's a bull o shite. Don't hate on me for sounding arrogant, I don't like this shit either. Trust me.
Wow. A week ago (give or take) I posted a thread speculating on the type of George Bailey from “It’s a Wonderful Life.” He’s 100% a martyr... but he never really asks anyone else’s opinion on things. It’s not “hey everyone, should I use $2000 of my own money to save the Building & Loan,” he just *does* it. So you can have a case where you do something for the Tribe’s *benefit*... that the Tribe doesn’t agree with at the time. What kind of decision would that be? Di or De?
How does this map out with those who have small inner tribes that they take advice from (core friends) to medium tribes (workplace) to larger tribes (nation)?
Questions: 1. How can we narrow this down when the 1st function is primarily/usually unconscious? 2. Which category does John fit into if he *KNOWS* what he wants, & that is: John simply wants to be a part of (lead or serve..same same) a Tribe (if even/only 1 person) which aligns with his values & enjoys the same experiences? (Thanks in advance)
What if I'm around fundamentally relatable people? I'd imagine that their thoughts and opinions would matter to me, as opposed to if I were around fundamentally unrelatable people. Would a tribe-decider seek input from anyone _regardless_ of these factors?
So what if i only ask 1 person for his/her opinion on my initial decision to do something, does that mean that i am a tribe over self person? I mean, that outsider is already part of the tribe.
I really needed to relate this to me. I purchase what I need. I consider the tribe when I want to do other things. Will people approve if I join cheerleading? Do they feel that I belong there even though I'm quiet. What will people say if I join the korean Student Undergraduate Association even though I'm black. Am I thinking about this right? I only question if it's a socializing situation.
I'm afraid of a person's negative reaction to what I do. If I am around people who I know won't insult me, I do what I want freely. Someone please comment undet this and tell me what that is?
I am curious: Is this sort of behaviour true regardless of circumstances or, could somebody (appear to) be Tribe above Self either because of: 1. something in their upbringing/history which has led to behavioural modification, for example lost self-confidence leading to self-doubt, and therefore a greater need for help/validation than otherwise expected? 2. the quest for knowledge, satisfying all the 'what if's and their curiosity about different viewpoints because 'you can never have too much information'? Personally, I'll think/research first, then ask if the decision is a difficult one. However, this may involve asking several people for both the reasons stated above. Also, if making the decision must involve researching a lot of arbitrary personal experience (say, choosing the most appropriate method of contraception for oneself) then I find the Tribe's views can be essential in making sure that decision is properly informed. Literally everything I've researched (including these videos) heavily suggests I am an INTP, except for this particular aspect where I feel divided. Having said that, I discover I don't necessarily value the Tribe's opinions if I get them.
I have a highly religious INTP brother - and this creates the appearance of self-sacrifice and Christ-like values. But really it is Ti Identity 9 times out of 10 - his 'self reasons' just happen to be libertarian anarchic Catholicism. His core preference is still very much Self over Tribe while simultaneously fathering an actual tribe.
+Viewer Discretion Ah, that's interesting, thanks. Makes sense. On closer analysis, I've discovered that I am constantly weighing up my Self vs the Tribe. It's a 50/50 split and sometimes a battle . My instinct is towards Self, but I have been conditioned to consider the Tribe as well. And, as I said before, there are the 'what it's: If the Tribe thinks one way and I find I think another I always want to analyse why, regardless of whether I change my mind.
Probably that's because you are on discovering your savior/demon Di which you had been ignoring. Do you consider your life style today is healthier than before or vise versa? Sry if it's hard to understand, English is not my 1st language.
@@user-mn5ge3mq9f i think it is healthier generally, but some things i do are less healthy then before, so I'm not sure And English is not my first language as well, that's ok
What confuses me is how this fits with Te dominant. Te dominants it seems just so their own thing, and boss people around. Do Te types actually consult the tribe's reasons?
Stereotypes and anecdotal evidence. So not very reliable, but I recognize that. But it makes sense within the context of understanding that Te is a process which seeks logic, order and structure in their external environment. Based on historical figures, celebrities, and people I know typed as Te dominants share a characteristic in which they feel as if they know the most effective system (Resources in and out, etc.) and they act like a bulldozer to make it happen.
I think that makes sense. They want to create a system or establish reasons which work for the group. And they do seem to create profiles for people's abilities and whatnot in order to know where to place them in the plan.
Having observed male ENTJ and ESTJ their bossiness seems to be a cover. It is a 'show the tribe what I think the tribe wants to see' mask to cover their poverty of identity. People reflect back to them "Oh, aren't you so decisive, you must really know what you want", when its really just them being busy to distract from self-doubt? Remember they will often have the animal trait of 'Blast' with the impulse to brag-or-teach. But what really are their tastes? Are they idiosyncratic or are they quite generic and safe?
I get what you are asking. I know a very bossy ESTJ. She is pretty imbalanced - massively strong Te - so she fits the bossy, overbearing, action-oriented stereotype perfectly. But most of what she does is as a duty to the tribe. She values the tribe and tribe reasons above self. In those instances she ploughs ahead and does the thing without consulting anybody, just assuming that it is the *right* thing to do. But personal decisions? She asks a lot of people. Should I get this haircut? Should I buy this dress? What do you think of my speech? What do you think of this type of phone? Either way, the tribe is *always* considered.
I can relate to this. Like I always ask other's opinions, but then with the car example I can't relate to that. I'd probs ask other's about cars, but in the end I'd just get the one I want
What does Di and De stand for? I like your videos but often you drop in with no context. Then you use the pink FE and then use a pink big F while explaining Fi - it really relies on the viewer keeping track of what your showing vs. what your showing cause it doesn't stay consistent.
I HATE when people ask me if I thought something for myself... when I come to them. OF COURSE I HAVE! Your my last resort cause I can't figure it out. And whatever you say wil not be my final because I will go back to me!
In as much as saviour-Fi seems to be an unshakeable sense of self. I've seen other INTJs struggle with weird admissions like they just wish they were popular and cool - it seems a sort of demon-Fi thing to me. But what do I know? Ni-Ti is a smug, aloof and awkward.
But cmon, it makes no sense. In other videos, it said that if I LIKE something Fi and have difficulty giving other reasons for liking it as well Ti, then Fi is my savior, and Te is my demon. Now this video says that I have either Fe or Te as my savior, because I ask other people opinions. This is contradicing information. Because I both as other people opinions AND prioritize myself vs others, I look into my values and sometimes have difficulty rationalizing them to others.
I know that I am self above tribe but it is not that strong like 6.5 to 7 out of 10. now this may be a confdice thing and depending on others mostly growing up and fear getting in my way.
Ehh idk about this. These people seem to be here only for entertainment purposes. MBTI is already wishy washy and their system doesn't have a leg without it. I've typed as ENTJ numerous times. I may ask for ppls opinions. Doing so helps round out my own position in case I'm missing important details or w.e. But, largely every choice I've made and still do is based on what maximizes my own self esteem/needs/ etc. I dont necessarily trust this system just because its a brain child of these two who have an interesting spin on mbti. Their system doesn't work without mbti. Also, they want you to pay for their...'service'? Yet dont even offer their own assessment. This makes me believe they are largely for entertainment purposes only.
Why isn't ENTP with a saviour third function Fe labeled as ENFP instead. It would make more sense tbh... and ENFPs with a saviour Te should be labeled as ENTP
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
"I see it, I like it, I want it, I got it" Ariana Grande IP confirmed
Lmao
It's odd because there are times where it feels so much simpler and safer in a way to just see what the tribe wants me to do, yet other times I like to see what the tribe wants and then do the opposite for whatever reason.
Frank James Your last statement is probably your demon Di deciding for you. Perhaps you don't realize it because you don't value it as much
#ThestruggleisREAL
Frank! I got stuck on your videos too.
Agree. This seems like this would be a DD thing. As a Di, it never even occurs to me to ask someone their opinion about what I should do, and I've always been confused by people who ask me what they should do. My immediate response is always, "Well, what do YOU think/want?" because I don't know why my opinion should have any bearing on something that affects them, not me. I find the whole situation incredibly foreign.
When unhealthy, however, I have moments where I feel lost decision-wise, and want to ask people for advice- although I still usually don't. Then I feel really lost, like I've become unmoored and am floating around without a clear sense of self.
Frank James You might be a double decider.
As a Ti dom- I've found this new amazing discovering called.... asking other people what they think of my ideas. And I actually listen sometimes... it's great ;-).
What if they are wrong? Then all of you would be wrong.
Thank you for that example, I'm definitely tribe above self😀
I make up my mind on what I want and I keep wandering around asking my family and friends what I should get, but secretly wishing that they advise me to get what I wanted in the first place.
If they advise me to not buy what I want I feel broken, and then I start thinking "should I buy what I want or get what the tribe recommended?"
What MBTI type can I be? I'm really undecided. I've got many different results going from INTP to ESFP.
All I know is that I'm a Perceiver. No doubt about that.🤘
Yes, I've read the functions but it didn't help me at all.
Luís Guimarães read the into profile by Paul James. If you are an into you will walk away dead certain of that. Otherwise, good luck.
Most people can't figure out their type on their own. Being objectively typed is the only real way to know, or asking feedback from people who really know you and can be candid. First step is to figure out if you are an observer or a decider: ua-cam.com/video/V6_QfwX8Q8U/v-deo.html
Anita Ashland based on that video I must be an observer 🙂
Observer + Tribe means you're either an Oi + De type (SiFe, SiTe, NiFe, NiTe), or an Oe + De type (SeTe, SeFe, NeTe, NeFe). Find a video where Dave explains the animals and see if you relate more to Blast or Play. The Oi/De types are Blast first. The Oe/De types are Play first :)
I'm questioning my type.
that really is the struggle 😂
@@justice5408 exactly!!
I believe I am an INFJ Ni/Ti - but I often ask other people about their decisions so I can 1) map their decision process, 2) skip the horrible part of gathering sensory data, and 3) be reminded of things or discover perspectives that I might overlook. Then I will still go about making my own decision that best suits my situation. Whenever a sales consultant comes to me I am happy for them to engage me, but I tell them I never make a decision on the spot: they can show me the scope of their range all they like, that's useful, but I will retreat away and hone in on the decision that is right for me in the end.
I was with you up until you said "I am happy for them to engage me". Is sales person garlic a thing? I want every business to have a greeter with a quick-download/install app that I can use to scan products to see an infographic or something. Watch me from a distance if you don't trust me, I might eventually have a question anyway.
Yes. If I could have it my way I would prefer to listen to sales agents talk to a third party and just osmosis the info in. But I have worked in product promotions in the past so I have a life-story that makes me sympathetic to the plight of sales people. In supermarkets I force myself to stop and chat to the samplers just because they usually go four hours with people saying "No".
And I would only ever be in a shopping centre if I had budgeted the energy resources to do so in advance. I don't wander into a shop willy-nilly ;)
Excellent points. Most of my work history is in retail (certainly not out of preference), never commision work though, thankfully. I tend to pick up things other customers drop/leave-behind while shopping, out of habit.
That's sweet to hear.
I think perhaps in terms of religion and philosophy and psychology I feel the way you have described. I don't talk about it anymore because people are wedded to the ideas that they are skilled at, rather than to the ones that might be more accurate
You just described me!
man the more videos you do about this stuff the more sure i am about my self typing. for the longest time i've been doubting myself but now i know i'm just one of those from "half the population that doesn't fit in the system" kind, and it made typing myself much more easier. thanks
Great video !
Please do Things VS People next ! 🙏
Pierrick YAH Yes great suggestion!
I'm totally tribe above self as an ESFJ. When I needed to find a new car insurance company, I totally went into social media asking everyone their experience with the best auto insurance. It helped!
I think independence, and self reliance comes first. They say a chain is as strong as it's weakest link.
I see dependence on others as something to be resolved, or else your problems become someone elses.
You can't put a fire out by spreading it around. You cannot contribute strengths if you're not self sufficient enough to be strong to begin with. If you don't have boundaries, the tribe will take advantage of you.
I’ve found for tribe>self people, it’s 10:0 for exfjs, 8:2 for isxj’s, 7:3ish for extj’s, and 6-5:5-4 for inxj’s. Te-Users do want advice from the council, but I’ve found they can be a lot more unilateral in decision making and especially for xxtj’s who will make the most reasonable decision but won’t really taken everyone’s feelings into account like FJ’s do. I also think inxj’s out the the tribe>self people are the most likely to discount the opinions of others and do what Ni-De is telling them to do. At least out of the J’s, I think you might be overemphasizing how much the exxp’s will listen and take advice from others(albeit it’s Di-De, but in the middle). They’re not as self-oriented as ixxp’s but they can be just as flippant about making decisions of their own.
It’s funny because this didn’t hit home for me until I asked the question “Am I a tribe guy?” Or a self guy? Which one does my life revolve around?
If I really took an objective look at that about 8 years ago, I would have known probably instantly that I am tribe above self, hence I could not be an INTP just based off of that. I think a lot of people type themselves on what they idolize (eg: super smart INTP) instead of what is objectively true
So true dude. That's why the online tests can be so unreliable (plus the questions are crap). Many people will look at how they want to be rather than how they really are. It's also tough to see all the patterns in your life cause you live it everyday (micro scale). Whereas other people you can easily see the patterns they fall into over time (macro scale). MBTI is more about the macro, big picture patterns, rather than micro, day to day fluctuations.
I, for instance, always tested INTJ and loved the description and everything. After doing research though I've learned there are strong biases in the MBTI community in favor of intuitive types, which made me reluctant to explore the sensing types and their "stupidity." Why would you wanna be a type that's described as dumb? I now find myself to be more of an intellectual ISTP, and view these things from a purely objective stand point. Everyone is unique within their type.
Nicely said :)
So funny I was like "err I'm reeally self above tribe, why no...so I'm reeally intp i guess? But-" and I read someone WANTING to be intp (cause they arent) xD
this made transitioning so hard. I knew for sure I wanted it but I'm always battling what others will think. I'm Fi and know my values, especially as I mature I gain clarity and confidence here. But I am so worried what others will think and will feel like shit if what I want / I express about myself is vetoed by the tribe. I'll get so upset that I'll want to cut those people out of my life forever when I probably imagined the rejection in the first place. I care so much and I hate it, a lot of my life is trying to not care and do my own thing. Its what I want, but its the hardest thing to do. This is a story not particularly uncommon in the world.
I'm so self above tribe that I can't comprehend asking before or after a decision. I'm in my own little world. That being said if someone randomly gives me advise I will think about it and I might listen it it feels right to me.
Im so glad you used this as an example, as I went through this Same. Exact. Situation very recently!
I've been called an *askhole* many times in my life, because I'll ask everyone for their opinion only to already my mind made up beforehand hahaha
Thank you for making this video. 😍
I usually only ask for other people's opinion as a tie breaker when I'm conflicted about something as a way to see blind spots or to get another perspective. Even then, I'll still make the last call whether it agrees or not with people's opinion or social values, as long as the arguments make sense to me.
Everybody takes both into account, but one is your primary motivation and the other is simply a constraint on that. Following Self Values (Fi) is what I want (Ne-Fi ENFP) but I glance at Tribe Reasons (Te) to make sure I can get away with it.
"Everybody takes both into account" Pfft erm tell the me from 2 years ago that.
Think that's just double deciders.
I’m an ENFP and I distinctly remember when I was 12 years old and I learned that other people have perspectives/opinions too, not just me
As a fellow ENFP, I used to find it odd that some people don't have strong personal opinions and seem to crowd source to get theirs.
I'm in love with these videos. The way you explain this is so simple but also accurate, while the convoluted anecdotal ones just leave me more confused. I thought I was INFP for about a decade, and so far watching your videos have narrowed it down to ExxP. The thing that really rules out INFP for me about this video is the lack of strength in my pattern of prioritizing self. Of course I can only see my perspective of myself, but while I have a tendency to prioritize self, I like to keep my options open. I like to listen to the tribe's reasons or values because sometimes I'll discover I agree with them, but maybe more often than not I'll review them and end up going with my own. Before, say, age 16 I over identified with self and rejected tribe. Such a strong individuality streak that made it seem stupid to consider anything other than Fi-dom. In my 20s, it's a conflict I've already mostly resolved and have balanced.
Hmm. I think I'm an IxxJ. I do constantly "research" by asking people what they think about what I'm deciding... but I "feel" like I do that because I suck at "seeing" or noticing things. Other people are much better at that than I am (my spouse for one). So I ask them what is important to them, but then I weigh all those individual answers internally and decide whether what they've noticed/observed will be important in my life.... is that tribe above self?! I also have "favorite" sounding boards (or people that I believe are very good at offering facts or opinions). These are people I deem "trustworthy" and I go to consistently.
So I'm the type of person that knows what I want. I do end up asking the tribe for other insights for factors I have not thought of or realized yet. But I'm only asking for their input since I know others have experience. I don't actually care about going with their suggestions from a "popularity" stand point. It's merely to see if theres other features or things I dont know about or haven't thought of. I am not the type that goes along with a popular opinion just to fit in- INTJ
Now I see why IP types are called “indecisive”, I always wondered how so many people pinned that down. Thanks for the clarification. I have a lot of respect for De deciders. Is it anecdotal to say they must be more humble than Di?
I can see why you'd think that, more open minded in theory at least. They could be really close minded when it comes to following the tribe though, thinking things have to be followed a certain excepted way.
That being said, I find the Di people Dave was describing as an extreme annoyance haha the kinda people who don't listen to anyone and wonder why they keep messing stuff up...
De people, at least the nice ones, are way more enjoyable to be around cause they care to listen about what others say and respond accordingly. I'm all about being flexible in life, if someone has a better opinion (with evidence) I'll totally listen.
What if being arrogant is the norm amongst the tribe? In that case Di may be more humble
Hmmm, I have always thought I was a self-above-tribe, but these videos are making me question it...
I *like to think* im self above tribe
the ego makes it so hard to type yourself :/
My twin bother is a ISFP.I am a ENFJ we do a lot of work ware we have to thick as one to get the job done. Most of the time it seems to be the bast of both worlds.
Please do gather vs organize next
Peter the Great how come?
Peter the Great oh okay, sorry lol
Damn... I've always thought I was an INFP, but I almost never make any decisions without consulting people. lol
Fi dom here, I’m always in my head like “Those rules don’t apply to me”. IP types have rebellious tendencies because of our primary function.
Is it still a 10>1 ratio for those with middle deciders where there's more of a balance?
Hoping others will chime in to help verify. Thinking it's going to be less a '10>1' or '101 or more TRIBE members to get a single INFP to realize they are not INFJ. Even after that, some still won't budge. Or one could ask: How many TRIBE members does it take to prove to an ESFP that they are not an ENFP? Hoping this video might get alot of the mistypes in the community to see the mistakes they've made in their own type.
Admittedly, I'm still not 100% on board with the sub-type thing that Dave Powers, the INTP's at CognitiveTypes.com & Socionics use. I still believe that alot of the so-called: 'subtype' thing can still be explained by mistyping. Which would make the mistyping thing a bigger issue than most would like to accept.
@@ToddHa i don't see any reason why someone can't be self above tribe and still organize more than they gather. The jumpers do make sense in my opinion.
What if I sometimes feel the need to ask the tribe's opinion only to see if it lines with my own? I internally don't really accept their feedback or reconsider my decision anyway. It always pisses off others because I ask for their opinion and then I never change my mind anyway. I do look for reviews when buying something but when my friends recommend a product or movie/song that they liked I'm never interested. Oh and I always feel the need to read the comments below EVERYTHING, video, news.. and when there aren't comments I feel kind of empty.
Sounds slightly tribe above self. Maybe you're a Double Decider :)
Yeah it makes sense, I thought I may be a Double Decider too. Thanks :)
Most likely this is your saviour De asking everyone's opinion and your demon Di telling you your own opinion. It might be the case if you're constantly hoping the tribe agrees with your decision by asking beforehand but then your demon Di having the last call.
If Di is my demon would I feel okay with myself when I follow what I want? In the end I always do what I want because it's what makes me feel okay with myself even if the tribe doesn't agree. It hurts that they don't, but it's my life. I would feel oppressed if I felt like I was following someone else's decision
Well it's impossible to be accurate through the comment sections and your latest comment makes me doubt my 'diagnosis'. The only way to diagnose yourself is to first learn to type others from Dave
I'm definately self above tribe. I only ask other people for suggestions/opinions to speed up decision-making. They provide information so I don't have to waste as much time; I'll probably end up doing my own research anyway though. If I could come up with an efficient info-dump research database program, I'd eliminate the Q&A step entirely.
If I haven't fully decided what I want *THEN* I'll ask others their preferences in related areas, determine if I typically agree/disagree with them, ask about the specific thing I'm considering, and decide accordingly. Example: I see a trailer for a movie that looks like it could be really good or really bad. I'll ask people that have already seen it what they think of specific similar genre movies first. If we seem to like the same movies in that genre, then I expect to agree on the one I'm considering.
Gaian Entertainment I can’t really imagine not asking others what they think. I might not care, but I’ll ask for more information I might have missed.
I'm the same exact way. I only ask so that they can provide other details or insights I haven't come across yet.
This guy is just projecting his own insecurities ^
Noximilian Colxen Do get off on trolling or something?
Genuinely curious as to why you like to consistently stir the pot in these comment sections?
Just doesn’t seem like a productive use of time to me to be honest. I’m sure you will have a sharp tongued reply.
I have no idea how anything I said would suggest I'm trying to be an INFx and although I'm certainly not an ENTJ, my life might be better if I was.
"only have stupid friends who can't give you good advices so you rely on yourself."
Opinions aren't good advice unless they, and I, tend to share preferences on relavent things. When it comes to things I know nothing about, sure I'll ask more informed people their opinion and likely end up using it too.
"What you should do is search for an INTJ+ENTP friend."
The ENTP I knew best was annoying as fuck, no thanks. That type seems to be interesting at a distance, or if they're mellow and have plenty of other people they can hang around without me. I can't think of anyone I'd expect to be an INTJ, except that is one of the types I've identified as in the past, so I might get along well with one.
"ENTJ base everything on their feelings, on what they WANT."
Did you even watch the video? Self vs Tribe is *about* "what I want" vs "what they want" or think I should want. It's also about needs but I don't remember as much emphasis being on that in the video.
Regardless of what "types" they are, people who go extreme with too much gusto will always be a pain in the neck of others, which backfires on them in the long run anyway. Functions do not apply. Discernment is the key.
Omg I hate when people ask me something and then go to the next person. This also explains why people seem to do what they want regardless- thought they were just bullheaded.
This is really interesting. I usually know what I want and go for that, yes, but I also have the issue of "asking several people about the same problem," sometimes even over and over.
Niha
You could be a double decider (EXXP or IXXJ) then! What do you ask others for? What they like/value or their reasons? That could point to whether you're an Fe or Te respectively. With you already knowing what you want, it seems you're Fi/Ti over Te/Fe respectively.
I am a little shaky/uncertain when it comes to how I am "being seen by the tribe" so I relate to that for the Te inferior/demon that he talks about in his videos. So yeah, my questions are essentially trying to gauge who am I to them? I know how I feel and perceive things, but how is it appearing to them?
Niha
I guess that is Te as third or the inferior function. As an ISFP myself, I do feel very conscious when people can directly see me, be it physically or on social media like Facebook or Instagram where people actually know me. The fear of being misunderstood is there, but I definitely don't change myself just because someone tells me to, that's strong Fi I guess. Holding up your values strongly is Fi.
This doesn't help. I only ask for the input of others if my decision impacts them, so the pattern is..."it depends".
Duude, this is so fucking accurate, when u showed that graph with the self and the tribe axis it was just, YES!
100% tribe over self. Everything in this video was so congruent with my decision making process.
love the latitude/longitude concept
The way I work is I make a decision and once everyone else comes to tell me their opinions, I tel them why they’re wrong, it’s especially annoying when I think someone else holds an opinion because they’ve never thought about WHY they hold that opinion, they were just taught that that’s how it should be
That example of Self above Tribe was basically me chosing to buy a Nokia Lumia Windows Phone when everybody was going for Android phones 😂 But you know, it was a Nokia, and I'm clumsy as hell so I needed a resistant phone, and it's functionalities seemed good...And let's say at least it WAS resistant... 😂
More seriously, if it's something that only concerns me, I don't always ask for someone else's opinion, at least not for buying expensive things because to me I need to be comfortable with these things' functionalities in a daily context and I'm the only one who knows what I'm more comfortable with. Most of the time I ask for opinions about clothing, make up, things related to image, advices about artistic choices,etc. But if someone else is concerned, I really overdo it. So yeah, I'm still kinda confused about if I'm prioritizing more "Self above Tribe" or "Tribe above Self".
It’s very difficult to tell whether I’m considering the tribe because they’re my saviour function, or if I’m worried about how they will react (demon).
I've gotten better about asking the tribe because If I don't I'll write everything in my band and yeah people hate when I do that. Have I asked for advice before yes I think we all do. Have I considered other points of view yes do I still do what I want yes
Getting other people's advice is always good, especially when making music. It's hard to find a good balance between being authentic and following what others want though. IMO follow your own ideas, and ask the RIGHT PEOPLE when you need it. I make music and asking people to listen that don't like the certain genre is very disheartening haha
You can just feel the fakeness in songs where people aren't expressing their authentic self, like a lot of pop or even now with mainstream electronic music. It's more about the fad (tribe) than personal expression (self)
The wierd thing is I know what I want always do what I want but if I'm confused about something that I don't have knowledge on I'll ask the tribe and I'll hear them.all out but I still choose what I want to do. For example I know what type of guitar I'll go for it. I know what I want my band to sound like. I like a certain of lyrics so I write in a way that feels right. But I suck at relation ship stuff and that's where I'll ask the tribe what to do because I'm a noob at that stuff.
Can't an insecure Di be mistaken for a De? How do you see through that?
I think that people's demons are the source of most insecurities. At least those within larger pattern.
Pettersony Strawman I agree, I'd say my biggest insecurity and the biggest insecurities of a majority of people is their 4th function. Its their biggest imbalance
Cassidy Marshall nope the 8th function is the biggest insecurity I think
No not really because the exact opposite of your 1st function is your 4th, meaning you're constantly using your 1st INSTEAD of your 4th.
It's also not about the functions themselves but how they interact that truly makes you
I value self over tribe but am a INFJ, I’m guessing that’s the NiTi Jumper thing right?
Can’t say enough how much I love this video.
-Play first annoying idiot ESFP who bugs everyone before permitting myself to get myself anything
...and then it takes 10 tribe members to gather with pitchforks... XDDDD
What about the people who ask you when to take the clothes out of the wash and when to put the clothes in the wash, since they cant decide anything without first asking the tribe?
As an IP, I always ask the tribe… after the fact because I didn’t think about where I was going to put it. I was thinking more about the 1,000,000 other benefits it was going to have in life.
I feel compelled to ask “permission” to get something I want for myself.
Question: is an instinct to immediately look up reviews before purchasing something (such as a car) a signifier for validating the tribe? and if so, how would I able to tell if I am looking at the tribes reasons vs their values while looking at reviews?
Are you looking for the reviewers opinion or facts about the product/movie? I'd expect facts-oriented would be "reasons" and might not be tribe related. If you look at reviews for opinions, that's almost certainly a tribe focus. You care about what they think rather than what they *know* (so you can form your own opinion).
Gaian Entertainment definitely opinions. before I go eat out or I purchase something from Amazon I refuse to go to places or purchase products that have low or negative reviews. I just don’t know if when I read these reviews I’m looking at the values or the reasonings from the people.
This is just a shot in the dark but how do you respond/react to negative reviews of things/places you liked and positive reviews of things/places you disliked?
Since I think I have this issue too, what would it mean if the response to negative reviews of things I liked would be "No way, it's impossible, how can they not see how amazing it is?!" and the response to positive reviews for things I disliked was "Whatever, I wonder what they see in this thing?" however for things I absolutely hated the response would be more like "These people are crazy, how is it possible to like this thing?"
Federica, that sounds like Self over Tribe to me. In each of those examples you seem to hold fairly strongly to your original opinion. I'd expect someone who places the Tribe above the Self would question their original viewpoint in each case, possibly changing their mind to match the tribe. Your examples instead suggest "my opinion is most likely right" with the possibility of "maybe they're right too" - instead of "maybe they're right.. what did I miss?" or something to that effect.
I'm extraverted self > tribe, only ExFP remaining.
I'm guessing these points won't work for double deciders? I find the first only possible for people who lack a sense of self? The second possible for people who are oblivious to Fe and Te. Surely, decisions are dependent on a wide range of reasonings and tribal input. Say you have strong values in one area it is going to be much harder for the tribe to convince you. If you don't have strong values but would like a certain thing then all tribe above self people will value what others want over what they want? It's a hard one because I'm not sure it works like this🤔. I find Te and Fe dominants usually ask what others want and then manipulate the situation to do what they want. The unconscious function is a pivot and controls every decision. It is what the person secretly wants. Je secretly want to do what they want. Ji secretly wants everyone to be happy with their decisions. Pe secretly want to know the truth. Pi secretly want to know everything. I think Fe in general is more likely to say No to themselves and keep everyone happy (unless there are values or an agenda), and Fi is likely to say, I want this and it doesn't matter if it's what you want because I can't see any value in what you want. The value being tribe over self. Then there is Te over Fi which will work to make the person see the most all round efficient way. So this type is unconcerned with what others want. Unconcerned with what they like. They're concerned mainly with what will bring in the right results. This can look like tribe above self. As getting the right results involve being accepted by society.
So there is Fi: what I like Fe: what others like Te: what is best for me Ti: what is best for everyone
I seem to be very balanced in this regard(I'm surprised, "balanced" is not usually a word I would use to describe myself) -- very strong sense of what I want, but also like to talk about it with various people to get their thoughts, just for the hell of it. Usually just do what I wanted in the first place, but leave room for the possibility that someone could save me from a horrible decision. (INTJ)
I recoil from even the appearance of just following the herd, let alone letting the masses dictate what I like or engage in, so in the end I think I'm self above tribe.
Really half / half between self above tribe and tribe above self ?
Obviously a generalization, most people are probably tribe above self though. Them sheeps ;p hahaha
there seem to be a lot of tribe above self here so.... xp
Maybe they're the kinda people who use the comment section. Think about it, it's all tribe. That's my best explanation haha UA-cam in general is very tribe oriented IMO, hearing other people's ideas.
exactly... fortunately these definitions of Te and Fe are incorrect, especially for Te
I like most of the definitions, but find them difficult to apply to the real world. Maybe I'm doing something wrong haha he's mostly painting broad strokes
Ok ya I'm definitely Di. -ENFP.
So... ENTJ jumper then? ENTJ with self above tribe? Because I still have Te, so is this like the masculine / feminine? ENTJ with feminine Te, masculine Fi? Is that a thing?
@doschirak_drohne Very insightful comment, thank you.
This is *exactly* what I'm thinking the ENTJ does: De _for the sake of_ Di. (At least this based on what _I_ feel _I personally_ do.)
I'm thinking the key is in the masculine and feminine here. Savior Te, but it's feminine to my masculine Fi.
Because just as you mentioned Ni and Se. Definitely a jumper (Se way too much) *but* I _do_ have those problems of over-planning. So I'm thinking that would be Se savior, but Ni masculine. (Because even though all I do is take in new information, while I'm doing it, in my mind it's all for the sake of "planning".)
Very weird. Either both savior functions are feminine (so fucking weird)... Or, I'm typing myself upside down, and in reality am an ISFP (therefore actually _am_ self over tribe) and everything's backwards. Very possible ahhahaahaha
what if we only ask 1 to 3 people? It sounds like gathering information before making important decisions is somehow a sign of indecision or codependency. If you're making a decision about something you're not very familiar with, isn't it normal to ask people you trust that you know have a better understanding of that thing to ask for their input? And then decide based on the gathered info? (yes, I'm late to the party, I had to run an errand).
ENTP here. Can't tell what I am. I ask people when I can't find the best solution myself, and I mean.. I tell everyone my reasoning and convince them I'm right because I just sound sooooo reasonable. Then because they're stupid I doubt my own decision because they bought it and now I don't know where to go from there.
When I ask people for their advice I'd like to hear something rational and also personally accurate... But more often than not, it's a bull o shite.
Don't hate on me for sounding arrogant, I don't like this shit either. Trust me.
Wow. A week ago (give or take) I posted a thread speculating on the type of George Bailey from “It’s a Wonderful Life.” He’s 100% a martyr... but he never really asks anyone else’s opinion on things. It’s not “hey everyone, should I use $2000 of my own money to save the Building & Loan,” he just *does* it. So you can have a case where you do something for the Tribe’s *benefit*... that the Tribe doesn’t agree with at the time.
What kind of decision would that be? Di or De?
I think that it's Di. It's his personal internal decision, even if it benefits others.
How does this map out with those who have small inner tribes that they take advice from (core friends) to medium tribes (workplace) to larger tribes (nation)?
Questions: 1. How can we narrow this down when the 1st function is primarily/usually unconscious? 2. Which category does John fit into if he *KNOWS* what he wants, & that is: John simply wants to be a part of (lead or serve..same same) a Tribe (if even/only 1 person) which aligns with his values & enjoys the same experiences?
(Thanks in advance)
What if I'm around fundamentally relatable people? I'd imagine that their thoughts and opinions would matter to me, as opposed to if I were around fundamentally unrelatable people. Would a tribe-decider seek input from anyone _regardless_ of these factors?
Most often, ENFP
So what if i only ask 1 person for his/her opinion on my initial decision to do something, does that mean that i am a tribe over self person? I mean, that outsider is already part of the tribe.
I really needed to relate this to me. I purchase what I need. I consider the tribe when I want to do other things. Will people approve if I join cheerleading? Do they feel that I belong there even though I'm quiet. What will people say if I join the korean Student Undergraduate Association even though I'm black. Am I thinking about this right? I only question if it's a socializing situation.
I'm afraid of a person's negative reaction to what I do. If I am around people who I know won't insult me, I do what I want freely. Someone please comment undet this and tell me what that is?
What if you ask the tribe, but do what you want anyway?
What if I'm getting on forums asking people what they thought about my best two options? Is that Te or Fe?
So true!
I am curious: Is this sort of behaviour true regardless of circumstances or, could somebody (appear to) be Tribe above Self either because of:
1. something in their upbringing/history which has led to behavioural modification, for example lost self-confidence leading to self-doubt, and therefore a greater need for help/validation than otherwise expected?
2. the quest for knowledge, satisfying all the 'what if's and their curiosity about different viewpoints because 'you can never have too much information'?
Personally, I'll think/research first, then ask if the decision is a difficult one. However, this may involve asking several people for both the reasons stated above. Also, if making the decision must involve researching a lot of arbitrary personal experience (say, choosing the most appropriate method of contraception for oneself) then I find the Tribe's views can be essential in making sure that decision is properly informed.
Literally everything I've researched (including these videos) heavily suggests I am an INTP, except for this particular aspect where I feel divided. Having said that, I discover I don't necessarily value the Tribe's opinions if I get them.
I have a highly religious INTP brother - and this creates the appearance of self-sacrifice and Christ-like values. But really it is Ti Identity 9 times out of 10 - his 'self reasons' just happen to be libertarian anarchic Catholicism. His core preference is still very much Self over Tribe while simultaneously fathering an actual tribe.
+Viewer Discretion Ah, that's interesting, thanks. Makes sense.
On closer analysis, I've discovered that I am constantly weighing up my Self vs the Tribe. It's a 50/50 split and sometimes a battle . My instinct is towards Self, but I have been conditioned to consider the Tribe as well. And, as I said before, there are the 'what it's: If the Tribe thinks one way and I find I think another I always want to analyse why, regardless of whether I change my mind.
Can a personality type changes? I think i was self above tribe few years ago, and slowly changed to tribe above self. Does it make sense?
Probably that's because you are on discovering your savior/demon Di which you had been ignoring. Do you consider your life style today is healthier than before or vise versa? Sry if it's hard to understand, English is not my 1st language.
@@user-mn5ge3mq9f i think it is healthier generally, but some things i do are less healthy then before, so I'm not sure
And English is not my first language as well, that's ok
Why would you need to ask other people what car would be best for your needs?
Yup this is definitely me.
What confuses me is how this fits with Te dominant. Te dominants it seems just so their own thing, and boss people around. Do Te types actually consult the tribe's reasons?
Why do you think they boss people around and how do you think bossing people around relates to Te?
Stereotypes and anecdotal evidence. So not very reliable, but I recognize that. But it makes sense within the context of understanding that Te is a process which seeks logic, order and structure in their external environment. Based on historical figures, celebrities, and people I know typed as Te dominants share a characteristic in which they feel as if they know the most effective system (Resources in and out, etc.) and they act like a bulldozer to make it happen.
I think that makes sense. They want to create a system or establish reasons which work for the group. And they do seem to create profiles for people's abilities and whatnot in order to know where to place them in the plan.
Having observed male ENTJ and ESTJ their bossiness seems to be a cover.
It is a 'show the tribe what I think the tribe wants to see' mask to cover their poverty of identity. People reflect back to them "Oh, aren't you so decisive, you must really know what you want", when its really just them being busy to distract from self-doubt?
Remember they will often have the animal trait of 'Blast' with the impulse to brag-or-teach. But what really are their tastes? Are they idiosyncratic or are they quite generic and safe?
I get what you are asking. I know a very bossy ESTJ. She is pretty imbalanced - massively strong Te - so she fits the bossy, overbearing, action-oriented stereotype perfectly. But most of what she does is as a duty to the tribe. She values the tribe and tribe reasons above self. In those instances she ploughs ahead and does the thing without consulting anybody, just assuming that it is the *right* thing to do.
But personal decisions? She asks a lot of people. Should I get this haircut? Should I buy this dress? What do you think of my speech? What do you think of this type of phone?
Either way, the tribe is *always* considered.
its my money why i gotta ask them for?
Wow this one was pretty amazing & useful! Sadly for me, I needed a second viewing to understand it properly.
I thought I am self above tribe, but I ALWAYS ask other people opinions. This is so confusing.
I can relate to this. Like I always ask other's opinions, but then with the car example I can't relate to that. I'd probs ask other's about cars, but in the end I'd just get the one I want
What does Di and De stand for? I like your videos but often you drop in with no context. Then you use the pink FE and then use a pink big F while explaining Fi - it really relies on the viewer keeping track of what your showing vs. what your showing cause it doesn't stay consistent.
He can’t explain the whole system in every video. 💁🏼♀️ Do the work & study it.
Pink is for F.
I HATE when people ask me if I thought something for myself... when I come to them. OF COURSE I HAVE! Your my last resort cause I can't figure it out. And whatever you say wil not be my final because I will go back to me!
I am self above tribe 100%
The more we go into this the more evidence seems to point to me being a NiTe(INTJ) and I low-key hate it.
Haha, isn't that so 'demon Fi' to low-key hate this?
Viewer Discretion I don't know is it?
In as much as saviour-Fi seems to be an unshakeable sense of self.
I've seen other INTJs struggle with weird admissions like they just wish they were popular and cool - it seems a sort of demon-Fi thing to me.
But what do I know? Ni-Ti is a smug, aloof and awkward.
Viewer Discretion Seems reasonable to me.
i always thought that i was an asocial and stupid intp, but now i can say that maybe i am a asocial, stupid with low confidence entj! :,)
0:15 half of the type not half of the population
But cmon, it makes no sense. In other videos, it said that if I LIKE something Fi and have difficulty giving other reasons for liking it as well Ti, then Fi is my savior, and Te is my demon. Now this video says that I have either Fe or Te as my savior, because I ask other people opinions. This is contradicing information. Because I both as other people opinions AND prioritize myself vs others, I look into my values and sometimes have difficulty rationalizing them to others.
I am the famous IxxP. I know which car I want. Deal with it.
I know that I am self above tribe but it is not that strong like 6.5 to 7 out of 10. now this may be a confdice thing and depending on others mostly growing up and fear getting in my way.
I'm more like I'm doing this than I'll be like tribe I'm doing this and yeah I do me
I am ENTP
and even tho i have an Fe preference
I am extremelly Di
Ehh idk about this. These people seem to be here only for entertainment purposes. MBTI is already wishy washy and their system doesn't have a leg without it. I've typed as ENTJ numerous times. I may ask for ppls opinions. Doing so helps round out my own position in case I'm missing important details or w.e. But, largely every choice I've made and still do is based on what maximizes my own self esteem/needs/ etc. I dont necessarily trust this system just because its a brain child of these two who have an interesting spin on mbti. Their system doesn't work without mbti. Also, they want you to pay for their...'service'? Yet dont even offer their own assessment. This makes me believe they are largely for entertainment purposes only.
Self above tribe all the way, hah.
you didn't define what the tribe is. am disappointed.
Why isn't ENTP with a saviour third function Fe labeled as ENFP instead. It would make more sense tbh... and ENFPs with a saviour Te should be labeled as ENTP
ecksedddra