Wow. I literally just read your entire article online before I was about to click "Play" on this video. As I scrolled to the bottom of the page of the article (after reading it), I see a photo of you and realized I was about to watch your UA-cam video. What a coincidence! Thank you for your extremely in-depth article regarding this topic. Now I shall watch your video :) God bless you, brother.
I used to try to follow the Torah-only for a few years. Tovia was my go to guy for a lot of things. I found Jesus 7 months ago and I feel I finally found my salvation. It's teachers like you who continue strengthening my faith. I too am studying Biblical Hebrew and I think it helps me out a lot. I've seen you excusing your name and saying "no I'm not Jewish", Solberg is a common Norwegian name. 🙂
Praise God! I am so happy you found Jesus, Heimir! Yes, Solberg is a Norwegian name. When we visited Norway a few years ago we were invited to a sheep farm of a family named Solberg on a road named Solberg. It was lovely! Gud velsigne deg, Rob
This was very helpful. I’m debating an online atheist and we each have three passages to support our case. Since the topic is prophecy as evidence for God, I have chosen Daniel 9:24-27; Psalm 22; and Isaiah 53. Your presentation is exactly what I was looking for presented in a respectful fashion. Thank you.
I hope the debate went well, my brother. With all due respect-and forgive me for what will be a brief and crude summery-Daniel 9:24-25 is one of the worst passages to defend. It is dishonestly translated in most English renditions. (The atnah [more or less equivalent to a semicolon], which occurs after "seven weeks [of years]" is deliberately moved to combine "seven weeks [of years]" (the time from the going out of the word until Cyrus the Great) with "sixty two weeks [of years]," and divorce this strange new combination of years from the rest of the sentence (the rebuilding of the streets and moat). In fact these are two separate time frames. 1611 KJB, NRSV, RSV, ESV, OJB, CJB might help. This is not a messianic prophecy in the Christological sense. (And I am a Christian, my brother.) And Cyrus the Great [the anointed/messiah/mashiyach who came 49 years (seven weeks of years) after the word went out] was a great example of God's provision and dominion over all-not unlike Rahab. ("I arm you, though you do not know me, so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other." - Isaiah 43) That example-which is expunged by the misrepresentation of these verses-should not be erased from our minds nor from history. It's a shame this stuff isn't more regularly corrected.
@@marybeck7594*Let's see what your MIDRASH and Rashi have to say about who this suffering person of PSALM 22 is* - Tovia argues in contrary to MIDRASH and Rashi and 2Samuel 23:1-3 *MIDRASH Pesikta Rabbati, 36:2* “During the seven year period preceding the coming of the son of David, Iron beams will be brought low and loaded upon His neck until *THE MESSIAH'S body is bent low* . Then He will cry and weep, and His voice will rise to the very height of heaven, and He will say to God: Master of the universe, how much can my strength endure? How much can my spirit endure? How much my breath before it ceases? How much can my limbs suffer? Am I not flesh and blood? …During👉 *the ordeal of the son of David* 👈the Holy One, blessed be He, will say to him: *Ephraim, My true Messiah, Long ago, ever since the six days of creation, thou didst take this ordeal upon thyself* . At this moment, thy pain is like my pain. At these words,👉 *THE MESSIAH* 👈will reply: ‘Master of the Universe, now I am reconciled. The servant is content to be like his Master.'” *PESIKTA RABBATI 37:137* “Ephraim, *our true Messiah* , even though we are thy forbears, thou art greater than we, Because👉 *thou didst suffer for the iniquities of our children* ,👈 and terrible ordeals befell thee. For Israel thou didst become a laughingstock and a derision among the nations of the earth; And didst sit in darkness, in thick darkness, and thine eyes saw no light and👉 *thy skin cleaved to thy bones* , and thy body was as dry as a piece of wood 👈; and thine eyes grew dim from fasting, and👉 *thy strength was dried up like a potsherd* (Psalm 22:16),👈 All these afflictions👉 *on account of the iniquities of our children* .”👈 *RASHI PSALM 22:27 ON SEFARIA* יאכלו ענוים. לעת הגאולה לימות המשיח: The humble shall eat at the time of our redemption👉 *in the days of our Messiah* .👈 יחי לבבכם לעד. כל זה אומר לפניהם: your hearts shall live forever I will say all this before them. *RASHI ALSO UNDERSTOOD PSALM 22 AS A FUTURE MESSIANIC PROPHESY* 👇 *RASHI Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki* “Why have You forsaken me?: They are destined to go into exile, and👉 *David recited this prayer FOR THE FUTURE* .”👈 *SOTAH 48B* - *DAVID WAS A PROPHET!* 👇 The Gemara poses a question: *_Who are the early prophets?_* Rav Huna says: This is referring to *_DAVID_* , and Samuel, and Solomon 👇👇👇 *2 SAMUEL 23:1-2* 👇 1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, 2 👉 *The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue* .👈 *TELL ME WHY THE PERSON BEING CRUCIFIED IN PSALM 22 ATONES FOR ALL NATIONS - How does his suffering bring gentiles to the God of Abraham* 👇👇👇 *PSALM 22:25-31* 25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation:👉 *I will pay my vows before them that fear him* . *_(VICARIOUS ATONEMENT)_* 👈 26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him👉: *your heart shall live for ever* *_👈(THOSE WHO SEEK HIM WHO PAID THEIR VOWS WILL LIVE FOREVER )_* 27 All the ends of the world shall *_REMEMBER and turn unto the Lord_* : and 👉 all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. *_(SEE DANIEL 7:13-14 & MATTHEW 28)_* 👈 28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations. *_(ISAIAH 9:6-7, DANIEL 7:13-14)_* 29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall👉 *bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul* .👈 *_(THIS PERSONS ACTIONS SAVE YOUR SOUL)_* 30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. *_(ISAIAH 65:1-15)_* 31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that *he hath done this* *_(THE LORD DID THIS AND IT REACHED ALL NATIONS)_* 👇 *QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER* 👇 #1 *WHAT DID THE LORD DO IN PSALM 22:31?* #2 *WHY ARE PEOPLE BOWING DOWN TO THIS INDIVIDUAL?* #3 *WHAT VOW IS BEING PAID IN PSALM 22:25?* The person *paying the vow* is the same one *whose hands and feet were pierced* and the same one whose clothes they gambled for - *NEVER HAPPENED TO DAVID* - *This person died a public execution* - The *VOWS PAID* in verse 25 result in *ETERNAL LIFE* for all those who believe in him and seek him in verse 26 - *VICARIOUS ATONEMENT!* #4 *WERE DAVIDS CLOTHES GAMBLED FOR AS HE STOOD NAKED DYING IN FRONT OF PEOPLE?* - *NO!* #5 *HOW DOES THIS PERSONS SUFFERING REACH ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO THE GENTILES?* #6 *WHAT HAPPENED IN PSALM 22 THAT ALL THE GENTILES WILL REMEMBER AND COME TO THE GOD OF ABRAHAM IN PSALM 22:27? WHAT WILL THEY REMEMBER?* *Now read MATTHEW 28 & DANIEL 7:13-14 TOGETHER - THE GREAT COMMISSION OF PSALM 22:22-31* If your argument is that Psalm 22 does not refer to the Messiah, you are arguing against your own MIDRASH and Rashi. You're in a pickle now. A wise rabbi once said 👇 *Mark 3:25* “And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.” *None of your rabbis agree*
Thanks for the video. On a quick note, "Orthodox Jewish Bible" and "Complete Jewish Bible" were placed under "Jewish translations." However, both publications are messianic (Christian) works.
Thank you so much for doing this video, i never new the word pierced should have been like a lion at my hands and my feet, but i totally agree, that as a lion bites down, it is piercing flesh with its teeth, and the nails, which were hammered with great pressure pierced into the flesh hands and feet of our JESUS.
This verse is one quoted by Messiah on the cross, so we know its significant to him in some way, regardless of how the translation shakes out. In addition there are so many other verses and fulfilled prophecies surrounding Yeshua Messiah that regardless of the rendering of psalm 22 it has no impact on the validity of Yeshua Messiah as both LORD and
I got halfway through this video and found so many problems.....#1. As mentioned, numerous recent Christian translations of the Bible acknowledge that "Ari" means "lion" in Hebrew (footnotes, etc). They still keep "pierced" in their translations because they are using the mistranslation of the King James version as their base. So, on the one hand, they admit that "ari" means "lion" but they can't quite get rid of the King James mistranslation; #2. An Orthodox Jewish translation that says "pierced"? There's not one Jewish English translation of the Psalms that uses the word "pierced" -- not among the Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or any other branch of Judaism. There may be a messianic Jewish translation of which I'm unaware but they are already believers in Jesus and no Jewish congregation would accept that translation; #3 What is the "Complete Jewish Bible" that you mention where "pierced" is in the footnote? Again, a Jewish translation would not mistranslate the word "ari" which is referenced multiple times throughout the Tanach as a "Lion" (and, by the way, never translated as anything else in the New Testament except in Psalm 22 where there's a Christological goal of mistranslating) One of the most striking examples of this is in Genesis 49:9 where Jacob refers to his son Judah as a Gur Aryeh' גּוּר אַרְיֵה יְהוּדָה, "Young Lion" when he blessed him. Other Tanach references to "Ari" include the blessing to the tribe of Dan (Deut. 33:22), the story of Balaam who described the Israelites by saying Behold a people that riseth up as a lioness (lavi), and as a lion (ari),. Ezekiel's vision of the lion, the ox, the eagle, and the cherub (Ezek. 1:10; 10:14).....why are these verses, and dozens of others in Tanach correctly translated as "lion" in Christian Bibles but in Psalm 22, it becomes a mistranslation or a footnote? #4. Where do you get the word "karau"? There's no reference to such a word, either in Biblical or modern Hebrew. Ever. Nowhere else in the Tanach. Nowhere in any commentaries. Not even in modern Hebrew where, in the last 100 years, new words have evolved to meet the needs of a modern language. It's a made-up word, invented by a Christian who wanted to try to justify the "pierced" translation. So when an ancient parchment was found where the word "k'ari" (LIKE a lion) was smudged, he promoted his theory that the real word is "karau" and that word means "pierced." Except, aside from his imagination, there's no basis for that in Tanach.
Thanks, Laurie! I appreciate you taking the time to share your views on this issue. Suppose, for the sake of argument, I grant you every point you made. And suppose I agree that the correct translation should be "like a lion at my hands and feet." Here's a question for you: What is the lion doing with the hands and the feet? Is he licking them? Is he sniffing at them? Rashi interpreted this phrase as, "As though they are crushed in a lion's mouth." So it's a biting and a crushing that portrays great physical pain in the hands and the feet. And that's exactly what we see in the crucifixion of Jesus, whose hands and feet were nailed to the cross. Shalom, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots yet if you read the pshat, the simple reading of the verse, David is saying that he feels like there are lions circling him. So isn't that the likelihood that that's what he means? To try to recruit Rashi, for whom the pshat was the ideal way to understand scripture, to defend such a Christological reading is a tremendous disrespect to a great Jewish sage who would have been horrified to know that his explanation was being used to justify belief in Jesus. If we're going to be honest, the simple reading of the verse is the most honest one -- David feels overwhelmed by his enemies who are encircling him like lions encircle their prey.
Professor explained clear and simple! Its a poetic chapter. No one intentionally made a mistake. each verse have an animal and a weapon so the certain verse too. ua-cam.com/video/MxV173rMXK4/v-deo.html
@@laurierappeport what?? you reject Rashi?? Even the TArgum understood this as BITING by a Lion on the hands and feet... "a gathering of evildoers has hemmed me in, biting my hands and feet like a lion." - Targum, Psalm 22:16-17
I like how you stated that tovia singer is a good teacher. He is. Very well thought out and very knowledgeable. I actually download his theme song Adon olam. I really enjoy his videos and have learned from them. The problem is he doesn't see Christ and he is biased like we all are in some way. We should not be biased against the truth though!
*The oldest manuscript which we currently have access to, is the Nahal Hever manuscript from the Dead Sea scrolls. This manuscript of Psalm 22, does appear to say "they pierced my hands and my feet", due to the final letter being a yod, not a vav*
It is absolutely an idiomatic translation derived from the LXX (that is often quoted by NT writers). The Greek word translated from the Hebrew in the LXX is ὤρυξαν which means "to dig, excavate". So, it appears that the translators used the LXX to derive what the lion idiom meant. A lion would tear into the victim with its teeth and claws and pierce the flesh. From the New Bible Commentary: "The translation they... pierced is not beyond doubt but avoids extensive alteration to the Heb. text, is supported by LXX, and suits both context and fulfilment."
Hi, Rob. I really like you, but was it honest to reference two Messianic Jewish bibles when quoting that passage? Both of those are sold in Christian bookstores. My versions from actual Jewish bibles, like The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi commentary, has like a lion- כארי That seems a little sneaky.
Hi Michelle! The point I was making when referencing the different translations is that Christian translators were not trying to hide the textual issue in this verse. Most of them openly pointed it out in their footnotes. And I included a couple Messianic Jewish translations there, as well, since they also believe that Psalm 22 foretells the crucifixion of Jesus. And as I mentioned at the end of the video, either way you translate Psalm 22:16-whether it's "they pierced" or "like a lion"-it foreshadows the specific suffering endured by Jesus. Shalom, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots Thanks so much for your reply! Most people don’t care enough to to respond. I’ve been following both you and the rabbi for a while. I just want the arguments to be fair, and the more I learn Hebrew the more I have trouble with the Christian argument. In-depth study of this one passage is what led me to Judaism from Catholicism. (I was raised Baptist as a child). שלום
1. The "Orthodox Jewish Bible" and the "Complete Jewish Bible" are not real Jewish Bibles, they are Christian Bibles used by Messianics. Messianics often use Jewish-sounding names for Christian things as a conversion tactic, to make Jews think that Christianity is the Jewish thing to do. None of the actual Jewish Bibles say "they pierced" because that's not what the Hebrew says. 2. "Like a lion" imagery is used by King David elsewhere in this and other Psalms besides this one, plus it is used in other parts of the Bible like Numbers 24:9 and Isaiah 38:13, but you can't find any instances of "ka-aru" meaning "they pierced", so the lion imagery makes more sense in the overall context. 3. This Psalm like many others would make sense as a hymn recited by many Jews throughout history who are experiencing these types of trials. I find that most of the supposed Jesus prophecies hinge on an argument over a single word, or a single passage which makes much more sense in its original context without reading it through the lens of Christianity.
@TorahLife4Life Jesus is the true messiah your mr singer has been harmered by brown wont debate jacob prasch s hebrew greek scholar your wee buns you dont count repent or perish.
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️ it is called ancient corrupted text. Such an argument is not scientific, why go with this torn scrap which you have no idea who wrote? This argument is rediculous and shows how little Christians know about Hebrew
Mr. Solber I admire you because you are seeking the truth and that is great. This is not about what's said like a lion or pierce. My question is with all my respect to you Sir. What do you want to said lion or pierce? Obvious, pierce right. I know that you, Christians wants to see Yeshua Nitzare in all the bible to confirm that he is the messiah right? This is not an issue, Sir. We Jews respect and love Christians of course. But the only thing that bother us is that the missionaries wants to convert Jews, that's all Sir. I hope that you understand my point. I have a lot of Christians friends that I love and respect so much. Keep your good job. I admire you and respect you. Shabbath Shalom Salomon
I know that Rabbi Singer also referenced the found parchment within the Dead Sea Scrolls of Psalm 22, which uses the word Lion. Moreover, the word lion in Hebrew does not simply have a one-letter difference from pierced. The word lion is אַריֵה, and the word pierced is מְנוּקָב. Interested, I searched out the image of the Parchment and it in fact does appear to say Lion in Hebrew. I'm very interested in this debate as a Christian Pastor.
I do agree that it may be immaterial whether the word is lion or pierced, as there is so much to this chapter and verse that declares it Messianic. I don't imagine King David believed he was going to bring all nations to the one true God.
Well presented. One critique: the Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB), despite it's name, is not a Jewish Tanakh; it is a Christian Bible with Yidish and Chasidic expression (similar to the CJB, "Complete Jewish Bible"). Maybe choose a Jewish Publication Society (JPS) Tanakh or an Artscroll for a Jewish representation next time.
The rabbi's claim is unfounded, since the early church (and practically all Jewish synagogues, for that matter, before and during the time of Christ) used the Greek Septuagint LXX, which preserves the meaning "they pierced my hands and my feet." The Dead Sea Scrolls also preserve this meaning. The Masoretic Text of the "Hebrew Bible" did not come into existence until the 10th century AD, and was compiled by scribes who wanted to obscure any Christological references found in the LXX. So, in reality, it was the Jewish scribes who altered Scripture, not the Church.
Only the actual LXX was compiled by Christians just as was the Masoretic text, which is just the Hebrew bible as it survived to the 10th century. And the dead sea scroll changes the yod to vav in many words, and K'ARU is not even a word in Hebrew.
@@drewcoope the thing is that, there was no one Septuagint for Psalms, and the test of the bible other than the books of moses. There were many greek translations circling around. And after a while, the jews stopped using them when greek wasn't spoken anymore, so the church had a free hand doing what they wanted to the bible, with no one to call them out. The dead see scrolls do not support it aswell, as the word scribed there is clearly a mistake, as it is completely meaningless. It is a very small mistake, between a י to a ו just a stretched stroke of ink.
@@gavrielsanders8681 Here a further and better illustration ; Psalm 22:16 - “like a lion” or “they pierced”? An ancient controversy has surfaced once again in our times. It revolves around the text of Psalm 22:16 (verse 17 in the Hebrew). In the Hebrew Masoretic text, the verse reads: “For dogs have encircled me, an evil congregation surrounded me; like a lion my hands and my feet.” The Lxx translation, however, did not read the Hebrew word yria}K,; ka’ari, “like a lion” but rather Wra}K,; ka’aru, “they dug,” and thus they translated the word with the Greek word w[ruxan, oruxsan, “they dug” or “they pierced.” The difference was whether the original word ended with a vav or a yod. Virtually all English translations (except those offered by Jewish publications) have followed the Lxx translation instead of the Masoretic text, giving us the wellknown phrase, “they pierced my hands and my feet.”To some this appeared as an obvious example of Christian translators choosing to follow the Lxx because it t their messianic interpretation of the passage, disre- garding the clear reading of the Hebrew original. What is more, the Lxx was accused of changing the original to bolster the Christian interpretation of the Psalm.Unfortunately, the Psalms Scroll found at Qumran did not include 22:16[17] because the manuscript was damaged at the very place where it would have appeared. The preMasoretic text seemed lost forever. That is, until recently. Scraps from a scroll containing some of the Psalms were discovered at Nachal Hever, and one scrap contained the line from Psalm 22:16 with the word in question well in view. Though the writing on the scrap was faint, under magnification it was easy to see and decipher. The word clearly ended in a vav not a yod, and was therefore a 3rd person plural verb: “they dug” or “they pierced.” Here was evidence that the Lxx translators had not “fooled” with the text, but had faithfully translated the Hebrew original that was before them. Since this scrap is dated (in accordance with the style of letters used) to 50-68 CE, it is almost 1000 years earlier than the Aleppo Codex, the earliest extant manuscript of the Masoretic text, and shows that in at least one of the earliest Hebrew traditions of Psalm 22, the word is not “like a lion” but “they dug” or “pierced.” Dr. Peter Flint, who published the principle edition of the scrap, notes that in the Herodian script, “vav and yod are usually distinguished, with vav generally longer than yod.”1 Indeed, in this instance, we have a perfect example for comparison, since the very next letter following the word in question is a yod: “my hands” (ידיה). The last letter of ka’aru is without doubt a vav when compared with the beginning letter of the next word which is clearly a yod. Here, then, is a Hebrew manuscript, pre-Christian, with “they dug” or “they pierced.” When Rabbi Tova said that in Daniel 9 the death of Christ is recorded but in the Christian bible the New Testament it is not and how it should have been important for them to recorded in the New Testament . I would like to reply by saying that the Old Testament it has already been recorded so there was no need to recorded again . The Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible. Also, the word lion make absolutly no sense . The one thing that had to happen was to blind Jewish people so that the gentiles would be grafted in the tree of life . We must pray that the Jewish people will be able to see soon love them all
Said it before, but I'll say it again. You've got to have a discussion of some kind with tovia singer, it would really be fascinating. You've got some good content on your channel, I quickly subscribed.
Really a good explanation, and I’ve read your comment section as well, with the Hebrew scholars/speakers giving their two cents. But I commented so that you might look into a book, “Return of the Kosher Pig,” by Itzhak Shapira. A Jewish believer in the Messiah, he looks at Jewish sources pointing to the Messiah, some not seen before in English. The book cost anywhere from $13 used, to $25 new from Amazon. I hope you read it and enjoy it. I think it would help you in your defense of our Savior. Tovia Singer is smart and charismatic, a good source of information. On my list is your debate with him from his channel. It’s going to be good!
Very Interesting. What do you know about the old original Hebrew. A person told me that in Genesis 1&2 the original language doesn’t say and the "evening and the morning " were the first day...no, that it says "morning and evening." which is opposite.
Hi Nicole. I just checked my Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible and my 100% Hebrew Tenakh (OT). Both have 'erev' (evening) preceding 'boker' (morning). I would attach a picture here if I could. Possibly, quite possibly, that person was reading the Interlinear English word order left-to-right, instead of the correct way. [Hebrew reads right-to-left, and the Interlinear translation is directly above.] I've seen this happen before. For example, for Gen 1:1, my Interlinear reads left-to-right: 'The earth and the heavens God created in the beginning'. Reading correctly right-to-left, it says 'In the beginning created God the heavens and the earth'. Same meaning of course. But evening definitely precedes morning, and this is the basis for Jewish holidays beginning at sundown, as that is when the 'day' begins, Scripturally. PS. The Interlinear Greek English Bible doesn't have this problem as both languages read left-to-right.
"The Orthodox Jewish Bible, completed by Phillip Goble in 2002, is an English language version that applies Yiddish and Hasidic cultural expressions to the Messianic Bible. " Biblegateway Meaning it's a Christian Bible dressed in a bekisha and Striemal
The original word is Kaari like a lion. It is not Kaaru or Karu. Kaaru does not exist and Karu means to dig and it never refers to the piercing of the flesh. Therefore only Kaari is the original word. The Septuagint uses the oruxan which is always translated for Karu. And oruxan in the Greek literature never refers to piercing. This is why Tovia Singer accuses the Christians of wrongly translating in English as pierced rather than a scribal error in the manuscripts. Psalm 22 is in the present tense and it is David's prayers as he was facing hardship and threat from enemies. Christians distort Rabbinic writings to prove that Psalm 22 is futuristic. Rashi interpreted Psalm 22 as refering to the Jews in future exile at the level of midrash and not peshat. Chrisitans should learn the difference between midrash and peshat. If one uses such a methodology like the Christians one could even make a case that Psalm 22 refers to a woman as Rashi himself mentions in verse 1 that his sages interpreted Psalm 22 as referring to Esther. Please realise this interpretation is at the level of midrash and not peshat(literal exegesis). Psalm 22 should be correctly interpreted as like a lion they are after my hands and feet. This trouble is yet to happen and is near not like the crucifixion which should be in the present tense. Some verses later the psalmist glorifies God for saving him from the mouth of the lions which if interpreted for Jesus would mean Jesus was not crucified and that he was saved from this threat.
Oruxan is a derivative of the Greek word “Orusso,” meaning “to dig” or “to burrow.” When considering how considerably more ancient our manuscripts of the Septuagint are compared to the Masoretic text, it is reasonable to conclude that “pierce” is a more accurate rendering. Especially since the “to dig/burrow” one’s hands can be read as analogous to “pierce” one’s hands, while “to dig/burrow” is not analogous to “like a lion.”
Also, for the record, it is disingenuous to say “this can’t mean that, because this never means that.” It’s like making the argument that there’s no evidence, having evidence presented to you that’s contrary to your point, saying it’s not real evidence, then going back to step one. That’s basically what you’ve done by saying Karu is never used in that way. Since the Greek translation indicates the Jewish translators of this ancient version of the scriptures saw “to dig” as more accurate, they saw the word as “Karu.” The Church Fathers used this information for centuries before the earliest existing copies of the Masoretic text, which gives credence to the idea that a scribe would be motivated to redo the vowels to delete what non-Jews were using as a messianic verse that pointed to Jesus. I can basically go with Karu and the translations and ancient usage of the words are harmonized, or I can go with a random vowel change that breaks the harmony of lining up with older versions (and conveniently undermines a reference to Jesus to boot).
@@retro-orthodox The original Septuagint has no remaining copies and only included the first 5 books. The Psalms was not included until centuries later.
@@CallingToIslam_org There’s a world apart from arguing that something “works well with” something else and your initial post. I would argue it’s hardly exceptional when you consider one scenario has two words that align much closer (karu vs oruxan) as opposed to another scenario where the two words are night and day (kaari vs oruxan). One could make such a proposal, to be sure, but you then have to prove that the Masoretic text (of which the earliest manuscript dates from the 11th Century) is a more faithful manuscript to the originals than the Greek translations used and produced by the same religious communities would have been 700 years earlier. When you add to that the fact that these existing Greek manuscripts align more to the Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls than the Hebrew of the Masoretic text, I feel like it’s even more reasonable to accept the Septuagint reading. For example, the missing verse of Psalm 145, the number of Jacob’s descendants (75 aligns with the DSS, Septuagint, Book of Acts, and Church Fathers, while the Masoretic text has the number at 70), the “sons of God” (as reported in the DSS and Septuagint) as opposed to the “sons of Israel” (again, from a text that no physical copies of exist until 1200-1300 years later) in Deuteronomy 32:8, etc. And that last one carries a pretty big theological difference. Thank you for an interesting discussion regardless!
The lion theme concerning enemies is found in other places in the Psalms so for anyone to say the Rabbis changed it is without merit. In Psalm 22 alone we see lions mentioned more than once. Psalm 22:13 They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. Psalm 22:21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me. Psalm 7:2 Lest they tear me like a lion, Rending me in pieces, while there is none to deliver. Like a lion here in Psalm 7:2 What does it say in Hebrew? 738 [e] kə·’ar·yêh כְּאַרְיֵ֣ה like a lion What does Psalm 22:16 say in Hebrew? Jeremiah 49:19 What does it say for like a lion here? Numbers 24:9 What word is used for (like a lion) here? Isaiah 38:13 What word is used for (like a lion) here? Psalm 22:16 NET Bible Yes, wild dogs surround me--a gang of evil men crowd around me; like a lion they pin my hands and feet. Psalm 22:16 MEV For dogs have encompassed me; the assembly of the wicked has enclosed me; like a lion they pin my hands and my feet; We can clearly see what the context is about and other translations agree (like a lion) is not some invention used to hide anything. Animals are often used to personify enemies.
It's true that Psalm 22 is a "lament Psalm" that is very poetic which uses animals as metaphor ,lots of parallelism and stuff. It seems to be natural and logical to have the phrase like " Like a lion " כארי my hands and my feet " , which doesn't really make sense though. Then to smooth it out a verb is added ! "Like a lion [ They maul ] my hands and my feet ." Look let's dig deeper ! In this lament psalm , there are complaints , Requests and Thanksgiving. However ,there are 03 specific complaints that correspond to 03 Requests that are usually in IMPERATIVE form. You will see how the Complaints and Requests are connected to each other . The first complaint is found in : ✓ Ps 22: 12 [ 11] : "Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For THERE IS NONE TO HELP " This complaint corresponds to the Request found in Ps 22: 20 [ 19] : " But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me; O My Strength, HASTEN TO HELP ME ! There is none to help hasten to help me. ✓The second complaint is found in Ps 22 :13-14 [ 12-13] where it mentions " Bulls and Lion" : " Many BULLS have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring LION." This complaint corresponds to the Request found in Ps 22:22[ 21 ] : "Save Me from the LION’s mouth And from the horns of the wild OXEN! " Each animal in the complaint found its mate in the Request. Bulls Oxen Lion Lion ✓The third and last complaint is found in Ps 22:17 [ 16] where it mentions " Dogs and Lion" according to the majority of Masoretic text reading : " For DOGS have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. Like a LION [ they maul] My hands and My feet ." This complaint corresponds to the Request found in Ps 22:21 [ 20] : " Deliver Me from the SWORD , My precious life from the power of the DOG ." Lion Sword ???? Dogs Dog . where is the Lion ?? The Lion is expected to be mentioned in the Request . The Dog is mentioned ,instead of Lion it mentions " sword ". On the other hand, if we go with the reading according to the LXX ,DSS ,Peshitta ,and some masoretic texts ,it goes : " They pierced my hands and my feet" which corresponds perfectly to " deliver me from the SWORD " Ps 22:17 [ 16] : " For DOGS have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. THEY PIERCED My hands and My feet ." Corresponds exactly to the Request in Ps 22:21 [ 20] : " Deliver Me from the SWORD , My precious life from the power of the DOG ." They Pierced Sword Dogs Dog . The sword ( חרב) PIERCES! If "Lion "is not mentioned in the Request , logically it is absent in the corresponding complaint.
There is a tendency to change the text to match one's desires, but in this case, the alteration makes the interpretation's Christian aspect even more valid. As was said, Rabbi Singer is looking to cast doubt upon the validity of the test and, in that way, undermining the Christian faith. I have watched the Rabbi for as long as he has been publishing on UA-cam. While I admire his insight, intelligence, and biblical knowledge, he's on a mission to validate Judaism at the expense of Christianity. His unflattering reference to southern boys in Arkansas suggests they are all uneducated, which, as we know, is not a fact but just another way of attempting to discredit those with whom he disagrees.
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for taking the time to do it. David points forward to Christ. Maybe the best example is where long long after David was dead God says 'I will set David as King" and "I will set David as Shepherd" as bookends in Ezekiel surrounding the new covenant and the resurection of the dry bones.
Psalm 22:28 All the ends of the earth shall remember and return to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall prostrate themselves before You. ~ David says that all the people will bow to G-d not to David.
Around 500 A.D. the Hebrew Mesaretic translation made at that time was altered to make the passages quoted by Paul and other gospel preachers in the New Testament not match those quotes.
Jesus cannot be the Jewish Messiah for MANY reasons, per scripture, and there is no Hebrew scripture about a "second coming". *See article:* " The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims" (Jews For Judaism) Excerpt below is *just a portion of the fairly long article:* 11. According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption. There are two problems with this claim: 1. There is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption; 2. Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30). 3. To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim: 1. There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s. 2. Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59. 3. Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14; I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31) 4. Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor. The concept of Messiah is Jewish. To find out about it go to the source.
BUT RABBI TOVIA IS WILLFULLY IGNORING THE SEPTUAGINT. Besides, when it says, "the Hebrew" it usually means the Masoretic Text. I would really like to see someone challenge the MASORETIC editors and translators, who somehow, POST CHRIST'S ADVENT, found "Like a Lion" to be the proper translation, when there ARE earlier texts in Hebrew which say, "pierced" and the Septuagint, which is PRE CHRISTIAN, which says, Pierced. AND "Pierced" makes sense, whereas "like a lion" makes no sense. It's the Masoretes who were most likely deceitful.
Idiom and metaphor Isn’t Hebrew full of those? I watch a UA-camr who speaks nearly fluent Chinese. He only lacks, according to native speakers, fluency in the idiomatic expressions which can come from an immersion in the literary context and import of the language. Is there a source for Hebraic idioms?
Here is one I consult from time to time. But it only lists idioms from the Tanakh (aka Hebrew Bible, our Old Testament). www.ancient-hebrew.org/language/ancient-hebrew-idioms.htm ~Rob
Sorry, you can’t use the Septuagint for Psalm 22. If this Psalm is about Jesus who is speaking when it says (my transgressions)? Brenton Septuagint Translation For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.
@@TheBiblicalRoots I am not saying you can't use it, I am saying it defeats your argument that it is about Jesus. If this Psalm is about Jesus who is speaking when it says (my transgressions)? Brenton Septuagint Translation For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️ I appreciate the information, this answer still needs context. I show verse for verse the context of Psalm 22 and the answer you provided has the burden of usage concerning everywhere this word is used. The lions theme is not only in Psalm 22 but in other places as I show in the videos. Other Translations also say (like a lion), not just Jewish translations. Do not believe me, just view the information. Shalom. ua-cam.com/video/wXUFH75UQk8/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/TyyC87MxfTg/v-deo.html
@@cloudsoftorah6167 he took the Sins of the People because he is a Sin offering... ST. Paul uses the same language. "God made him who had no sin to be ❌sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21)
@cloudsoftorah6167 David penned the words for one thing. Even so, it's not a stretch if Jesus felt that way, because he felt the sins of the world on him.
The leader of the HRM group my husband is in, came from an upbringing in Judaism…he sounds and they sound so much like this rabbi…the accusations against the Bride of Christ are constant mantra in my house and in this fellowship…that’s not to say man has not done any fiddling with scripture to confuse, but ultimately, Jesus is the final authority…His Word through His disciples says, the Holy Spirit, will lead you into all truth. If you allow Him to lead you through scripture and let scripture speak through Him, there is nothing man can do to the Word to make it void…much of what HRM is about is a type of deconstruction of faith, only the opposite direction of the progressive movement…both are highly destructive if not discerned before one gets too deep…pray hard before you go down any new path and allow time for the Holy Spirit to speak…Come Lord Jesus!
I hear you, but many go down the "HR path" because although we may say Jesus is the final authority, in reality as Christians we would reply to almost all disagreement with, "But Paul said/wrote..." so the reality is that for majority of Christians, Paul is the final authority, even if we would agree that Paul and Jesus don't contradict... Truth be told, the Christian religion cannot stand on Jesus life and teachings alone, hense many go down the "HR path" looking to have Jesus as their example and final authority... Some may be lead off to the other side of the path(various Jewish sects), but my experience is that many are sincerely searching and we pray that The Most High will keep them and lead them on their journey with Him.
We got evidence in the septuagint where it clearly says in verse 16, Psalm 22: They pierced. The septuagint is dated back to the 1rst century CE even before the masoretic texts that have the manipulated scripts by the masoretes.
Only your Septuagint was manipulated by Catholics and the Masoretic text is the original language which means its the closest thing you can get. Also if you say this you must make the claim that Masoretes took the word karo and instead of changing it to something closer and grammatically convenient, like KARTO - they cut off - they changed two letters and made it KA'ARI - difficult to understand , nonsensical and grammatically out of place. Rule of thumb in ancient text study - generally ,the more difficult version is the accurate, as it is more likely someone changed it because he didn't understand then the other way around.
Psalm 22:5 Our ancestors trusted in You; they trusted and You rescued them. ~ Who are the ancestors of Jesus if he is god or the son of god? Psalm 22:7 But I am a worm and not a man; a reproach of man, despised by peoples. ~ Was jesus a worm? I thought he was sinless and god in flesh? Gospels teach that jesus was loved by everyone right?
17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. יזכִּֽי־סְבָב֗וּנִי כְּלָ֫בִ֥ים עֲדַ֣ת מְ֖רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּֽ֜אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי: from Tanakh.
Rabbi Singer spoke some sheker in that emet. He seemed to overlook certain explanations, instead seeking polemic against the Church. Rabbi Singer is well aware of the details included by Prof. Solberg in this video, but again, he chose to not give them for whatever reason… Perhaps for purposes of deception?
מספיק לבלבל במוח, הרב סינגר הוא סלפן פטולוגי, תראה כמה סרטונים מיקל בראון הוציא עליו והראה את השקרים שלו ua-cam.com/play/PLOSesbHxQr2TKM79aSxPLfOyOS5f7Q20z.html תממש לאמת ותראה שישוע הוא המשיח בן האלוהים, רק עם התנ״ך אפשר להוכיח את זה, שבת שלום❤
Good job on analysis. To me it is disturbing to even compare Psalm 22 to Jesus because down in verse 30 those who bow to him just go into the dust. But if you consider the two Jesus in the NT then it does not cause concern
Which Hebrew manuscript has כארו besides one Dead Sea Scroll fragment, which already has other typos? Which is more likely: that every Tanach in the universe was changed (including in Yemen where there was no Christianity), or that this one DSS fragment had a typo among many typos?
Pslams 22:16 כִּ֥י סְבָב֗וּנִי כְּלָ֫בִ֥ים עֲדַ֣ת מְ֭רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי The traditional translation reads: For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. (Psalms 22:16) What is meant by “like a lion my hands and feet”? Possible answers: Now, this grammatical structure is not at all awkward, as incomplete and broken phrases appear many times throughout the Bible in the form of ellipses. It’s stylistic and poetic. We don’t have to look far for an example, as verse 2 uses this very layout: “Far from helping me … the words of my cry.” (Which means to convey that not only have you distanced yourself from being present to help me, your distance is to the extent of not even hearkening to my cries.) Thus, what is possibly meant by, “…like a lion my hands and my feet” ? They pulverised, like a lion would, his hands, which represent his means of fighting back, and feet, his means of fleeing. Or, the comparison can also be expressed as David having the strength of a lion in both his hands and feet, so as to stand up against the pack of dogs, for a single lion can match a pack of dogs. The Christian translation claims: The word כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י/like a lion/Ca’ari should actually be written as “כארו”, allegedly meaning “they pierced”, which is a verb in the plural, past tense. The verse would then read, “…they pierced my hands and feet.” Problems: 1. Etymologically speaking there is no such root as “כאר”, nowhere. 2. Perhaps the Alef/א is superfluous, and it’s as if it was written as, “כרו” “Caru” ? Saying that the Alef/א is superfluous and that the root is “כרה”/“Cara”, or “כור”/“Cur”, or a similar argument, also doesn’t resolve the issue. These cognate roots are literally related to an act of “rounding/roundness”, as will be demonstrated, and are expressed as either digging the ground or making a heap, or, some action or article that expresses “roundness”, corresponding and having a convex-like or rounded attribute, nothing to do with piercing through, at all! The correct root to convey “piercing” or “stabbing” would have been ״דקר״, as in Numbers 25:8, or ״רצע״, as in Exodus 20:13. Let’s be clear, Jesus’ hands and feet were not “dug” or “heaped”, a senseless and useless suggestion. Here are examples of the roots כרה״” and “כור”. ויכרו שם עבדי יצחק../…And the servants of Isaac dug there (Genesis 26:25) The verse speaks of digging a well, and according to the literal root, it means “to round out” the ground, hence, to dig out, nothing to do with piercing through, especially not boring through a body part. כי יכרה איש בור…/…When a man digs a pit (Exodus 21:33) The verse speaks of digging a pit, again, nothing to do with piercing through. ויכרה להם כרה גדולה… And he set a large meal before them… Or more literally, he heaped for them a large HEAP of food (Kings 2 6:23) Here, the “roundness/rounding” is being expressed inversely, as a heap. ויוציא אתכם מכור הברזל…/And He took you out of the iron crucible/smelting pot (Deuteronomy 4:20) A “CUR” (which bears the same alleged root) is a pot used for smelting metal, a smelting-pot, or a vessel that has been “rounded” in dimensions מפזז ומכרכר…/ David was moving to and fro and dancing in circles (Samuel 2 6:16) The verb “כרכר/Circer” is the doubled root version of the root כור/Cur; their basic meaning is interchangeable. Again, a primitive root having to do with some type of “rounding out”, in this case, dancing in circles. Again, the same idea of “rounding/roundness”. וככר לחם אחת…/ And one loaf of bread, or more literally a round bun (Exodus 29:23) Again, the same theme, “roundness”. …וחלב כרים…/and the fat of lambs (Deuteronomy 32:14) Again, since the lamb’s wool imparts a bulgy and “round” semblance unto it, they are referred to as, “Carim/כרים”, from the so-called root. And the list goes on… None of these verses speak even remotely about piercing through something, much less piercing through bodies. This root clearly supports the presumption of “roundness”, whether in the sense of digging, forming, dancing etc. There are actually relevant Hebrew verbs that are used to express “piercing through something”, especially piercing through flesh, as mentioned above. (Language fact) 3. The next point is even more astonishing! The first reference of this verse referring to Jesus appears in the 2nd century. This verse is never quoted in the NT as referring to Jesus! Now, think for a moment, you would have to believe that the writers of the NT knew that it said in Psalm 22, “…they pierced my hands and my feet”, nevertheless, none of them, not Paul, not the writer of Hebrews, not the writer of the letters of John, no one thought that it might have been significant enough to quote !!!? You know why ? Because it didn’t exist ! Think about that for a moment and lament the lie. (The fact that Psalm 22 is cited in parts in the NT, and that this alleged verse isn’t even alluded to, is no answer at all, for given the choice, this verse should have certainly been at the forefront of citations from Psalm 22 ! There is in fact no greater quotation in the OT that would have assisted the NT in its endeavor. Yet, to claim is was left out because other parts of 22 were mentioned, is a preposterous hypothesis.) 4. The Psalm begins with, “To the Chief Musician. Set to "The Deer of the Dawn". A Psalm of David.” Yes, It’s Psalm of none other than David. Why distort the context ? David had his share of tribulations. His own father-in-law wanted to kill him, his own son wanted to kill him, he didn’t lack a reason to compose this Psalm. There is no reason to attribute this psalm other than to David. (Point about general context) 5. David begins the verse by comparing his enemies to dogs surrounding him, “For dogs have surrounded me…”, ending the verse with, “a piercing of the hands and feet”, is incongruent for dogs don’t pierce through hands and feet, they bite and tear. It is far more reasonable to assume a comparison to lion, to convey either that the damage that was inflicted upon his means of defense (his hands and feet) rendered them utterly incapacitated (To emphasise this it was necessary to use the analogy of a lion instead of a dog, for the damage inflicted by a lion is incomparably greater than that of a dog; while a pack of dogs was more fitting for the manner in which they convened upon him), or, to insinuate that David’s defensive stance was comparable to that of a lion, possessing the necessary strength to defend against a pack of dogs. (Point about specific context) There is no basis to arbitrarily insert Jesus in the OT whenever one feels like it.
@@Jack-vy2vx You're doing a wonderful job and in a cogent and succinct manner. Beautiful work. I hope you continue your effort to enlighten others. You're literally the very best responder I've seen on what I would say is hundreds of Christian and or missionary pages. Be well, stay healthy and keep it up. Great job!
@@D18.21 thank you, very much appreciated. My focus, of course, are only points that borrow from the Torah. These distortions, sometimes, are so incredibly profound that it’s astounding that these expositions are left unchallenged. The beauty of the Oral Law and its commentators is , in summary, the ability and framework to plumbed the depths and dissect the meaning of each and every verse; why exactly is it interpreted this way and not another.
You make an excellent case, Jack! Thanks. Let's go with "like a lion." As I mentioned at the end of the video, whether we interpreted v17 as saying "they pierced" or "like a lion," doesn't really matter. Either way you slice it, it speaks of damage to the hands and feet. Which is what Christians see as foreshadowing the specific suffering of Christ. (And, BTW, verse 17 is just one of at least five connections between Jesus and Psalm 22, starting with v1, which Christ quoted from the cross. So it's not as if it were a random connection being made.) Shalom, Rob
First, the problem with Christian understanding of Jewish things, is they don't understand Jewish things. The Torah is the ultimate and ONLY word of God, written by God, in Judaism. The prophets and the writings are inspired by God, not written by him, and are thus considered fallible. Why does this matter? When Jews set out to create the Septuagint translation, they only focused on the Torah. Jews still only focus on Torah. They did not translate the entire Hebrew bible into Greek, only the Torah. Greek translations of any other books were not done by the Rabbis or scholars, but by others, most likely later Christians. Second, Ka'aru is spelled with a kuf (Looks like P), not a kaf (looks like a backwards C). Different letters all together. Kuf-alef-resh-vav, vs K'ari which is spelled Kaf-alef-resh-yod. These are not, and cannot be the same, they're spelled different. However, to someone who doesn't know better, they sound very similar, think There, Their, and They're. The dead sea scrolls appears to read "ka'aru, however..... that's because the yod at the end may appear to have a longer tail that makes it look like a vav. BUT, both words start with a Kaf, and neither start with the Kuf. Different letters that indicate how it should be translated. Lastly, here's the text of Psalm 22:16, KJV. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:...... k'ari = Like a lion, they're at my hands and feet. Ka'aru = they pierced my hands and my feet. Looking at Psalm 22:13, we see another reference to a lion. 22:12 speaks of bulls. 22:16 speaks to dogs encompassing him. The reference back to a lion is completely contextual. There are also not all the "prophesies" about Jesus in the Tanakh like you imply. I was once a leader of a messianic congregation in Alaska. I sought to teach a class called "Countering the Counter Missionaries". It was a class to teach things like this. However, every point I had, there was a much more valid counterpoint. I also don't think Tovia Singer is the best example of the Jewish side. You really want to learn more, look at Rabbi Michael Skobac. I can't remember the name of the rabbi I first found that I learned so much from, but he's since gone on to create a Yeshiva that teaches on this subject. I believe his name was Rabbi Uri, something. Either way. Just like Isaiah 53 talking about Jacob and it's an alleged messianic prophesy. In chapters proceeding and following chapter 53 it specifically says the servant is Israel. Yet all of a sudden it changes person in 53 and returns to Israel in chapter 54? You guys twist things to fit your narrative.
@TorahLife4Life But isn't there a difference between DSS and Masoretic text in spelling? “Others have claimed that the word ‘ד’ה “my hands” is “misspelled” because it has the final ה, (implying that the text is not to be trusted in matters of spelling). Apparently those who make this judgment are unaware that the Hebrew of the Qumran documents often utilize the final ה to mark final dipthongs (see Elisha Qimron, The Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Scholars Press, 1986).” Tim Hegg, They Pierced My Hands and My Feet: Psalm 22:16 in the Hebrew Psalter Tim Hegg of TorahResource writes, “Though the writing on the scrap was faint, under magnification it was easy to see and decipher. The word clearly ended in a vav not a yod, and was therefore a 3rd person plural verb: “they dug” or “they pierced.” Here was evidence that the Lxx translators had not “fooled” with the text, but had faithfully translated the Hebrew original that was before them. Since this scrap is dated (in accordance with the style of letters used) to 50-68 CE, it is almost 1000 years earlier than the Masoretic text, and shows that in at least one of the earliest Hebrew traditions of Psalm 22, the word is not “like a lion” but “they dug” or “pierced.” Tim Hegg, They Pierced My Hands and My Feet: Psalm 22:16 in the Hebrew Psalter
@@nashashbel6922 1. who wrote the scrap? So you are saying all the Jews in all generations corrupted the text? If so, why can't Christians also? 2. Besides, in the scrap there is an extra Hay turning "my hands" to "her hands". 3. There is no word "כארו" which is an obvious spelling mistake. Learn Hebrew.
@@potato21012 lol! The extra He is already explained . Ok may you need to tell those scribes who wrote it to learn hebrew , because they wrote something that is grammatically incorrect , ridiculous , something that duzn even exist, they don't know Hebrew right! Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, reveals that the minority readings of כארו (ka’aru) and כרו (karu) are both present within the Masoretic textual family. “pc Mss Edd כארוּ, 2 Mss Edd כָּרוּ” Anyway , Think that the reading " כארי" was absent in the original based on the parallism found in Ps 22:12-13 [ 13-14] Ps 22:21 Ps 22:16 [17] Ps 22:20 [ 21] David compared his enemies attack as of Bulls , Lion , Dogs in his complaints. Interestingly he repeated the same animals in his Supplications , in a reversed way , a sort of " Chiasm". Each animal finds its mate in the parallism ! In v12-13 [ 13-14 ] it has : - Bulls - Lion in v21 it repeats them in a reversed way : - Lion - Wild oxen in v16 [ 17 ] according to the Masoretic reading it has : - Dogs - Lion in v20 [ 21] , we are expecting that both animals are mentioned in a reversed way like the other one above , surprisingly the" Lion " isn't mentioned but only Dog . instead of Lion it has SWORD : - Sword ( Lion is expected to be mentioned in here if it would have been mentioned in the complaint) - Dog. Each animal has its couple : Bulls wild oxen Lion Lion Lion < => Sword ???? ( Problem) Dogs Dog. However if we put : They perforated Sword. That works!
@@nashashbel6922 What you are saying is wrong. It does not work. I sat down on the psalm today and wrote a five page article showing how to really understand the parallel. I can share it. it's in Hebrew though. But anyhow, saying the Jewish Rabbis did not know Hebrew is just plain stupis and not correct. And what Mesoretic text renders a word which has no meaning?! Besides that, why render a more difficult option all because it fits with the false Messiah who anyhow is contradicted by passages all over the Bible?!
@@potato21012 David repeats those animals in a reversed way. Every animal has its mate ! Complaints vs requests. The Lion has never been there. Lool Why your Rabbis then preserved this ridiculous word? 😂😂
Dr. Solberg I will be up front about who I am; a traditional Jew who believes in the One and only G-d Who watches over every intimate nuance of His Creation, over the entirety of Heaven and the Earth, every galaxy, planet and quark. Our Father fashioned our hearts and knows our every motivation, if we are being sincere and responsible, or disingenuous and deceptive. I commend your for your sincere efforts, and I don't believe you meant to deceive your audience, but the Orthodox Jewish Bible you cite as proof that "even Jewish translators who know the Hebrew language make mention of the translation ka'aru/they pierced," is published by Artists for Israel International. They published Philip Goble's 2002 translation which uses Yiddish and Hasidic language and culture to promote the "MESSIANIC Bible." Messianic Judaism, (for those who may be unaware), is a branch of Christianity which seeks to proselytize Jews, to lure them away from our Sinaic traditions, yet you gave the impression that 'that translation has traditional/orthodox roots.' THE TRUTH IS THERE IS NO WORD KA'ARU (chaf/alef/reish/vuv) which differs from KA'ARI (like a lion) by a single letter vuv (versus yud - btw it's yud, not yod). You didn't post the hebrew visually in your video, you used English phonetics.... Respectfully,, you need to demonstrate more actual research in your argument.
Thank you, Sholom. I appreciate your feedback on the video. Respectfully, I would caution that defining Messianic Judaism as "a branch of Christianity which seeks to proselytize Jews" is quite misleading. Messianic Jews are, first and foremost, ethnic Jews who have come to faith in Yeshua as their Lord and Messiah. I spent a week among a couple thousand Messianic Jews last summer at the Messiah conference and it was beautiful! Do they want to share the Good News about Jesus with their Jewish brothers and sisters? Of course! All Christians do. FYI My point in citing a couple of Messianic Jewish translations in this video was to demonstrate that even those translations acknowledge an issue with Ps 22:16. In other words, it isn't some dark, hidden secret. There is an open debate about the source text. But as I concluded in the video, whichever way one prefers to translate it, it does not change the meaning of the passage. Shalom! Rob
Thanks for your response. Their title "Orthodox Jewish Bible" is a stumbling block before people who would not know better. If, as you say, they are "enthnically" identified Jews, they might better title their translation "Ethnic Jewish Bible." My claim against their translation and how you describe it is not coming from my opinion, it based on language. If you don't have access to the Hebrew language look it up in Google translate.
@@sholompraver4348Shalom Sholom! As a Messianic ethnic Jew, I find the title 'Orthodox Jewish Bible' misleading, also. I wish they would have called it the Messianic Jewish Bible, but nobody asked me. It is awkward reading, too. "In the beginning, Elohim created hashomayim and haaretz." This is like running while wearing one ice skate and one golf shoe. Oy vey!
@@dancingzolins6782 I wish you great blessing on your journey, keeping G-d's Will on your heart: שמע ישראל יי אלהינו יי אחד, allowing it to enter sweetly into your spirit. G-d Bless.
What’s interesting about the Dead Sea MSSs is that there is a one letter difference between the two, and the 4Q88 manuscript does not contain the letter which would distinguish between them. And Scroll Nahal Hever says “they pierced.” -RLS
Curious why you skipped verse 26: "26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the LORD will praise Him. May your hearts live forever!" Why do we still have malnourished people around the globe and famines? Plus, not all nations bow down to Jehovah, as verse 27 implies: "all families of the nations will bow down before him."
that is no Instant noodle...it is a PROCESS according to Psalm 110....the Christ will sit at the right hand FIRST...and then The Father will convert the Gentiles according to process and degree... the Complete Fulfillment is the SEcond coming...
@@krishyyfan5153 There is no "second coming" by the Messiah, per Judaism, and Jesus cannot be the Messiah for many reasons and scriptures. I suggest you read the article, "The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims" (Jews For Judaism)
@@wownewstome6123 stop your nonsense... the Midrash interpreted Psalm 110 as the Messiah... the Targum interpreted Psalm 110 as Sitting and Waiting... 🙄
Your explanation is wrong. The word like a lion in hebrew: ka-ari כארי They pierce or rather dig or mine (mining) in hebrew is karu כרו (not ka-aru) Notice that there are two differences in the hebrew: There is no "א" in כרו !!!! And it is pronounced karu, not ka-aru And the last letter as you mentioned. These are two completely different words. Take it to heart.
@@TheBiblicalRoots that verse is not messianic. Nor is this chapter in general. It is simply king David's plea to god for mercy and praises to god. You would say that verse 2 is a contridiction to that, but in this verse too the hebrew is somewhat different than the english translation. The hebrew says "my god why did you leave me" (which is a temporary term that can end at any time) not "forsaken" (which is to completely abandon). Although close, they are not similar.
@@TheBiblicalRoots One more thing about psalm 22 verse 2: if king David would have wanted to say "forsaken me" the hebrew for that is "זנחתני" zanachtani - as in psalm 43, 2 as is in the hebrew bible, which in the english translated bible is "rejected me", (which in hebrew is dachit oti 🤨). See how many differences there are ??
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️ Indeed the word in the Nahal Hever scroll is written with an א and it goes to show that the scribe meant to write the word ka'ari כארי (like a lion) and not karu כרו (dig) since that word has no א in it, no shape or form and cannot because of it root כ.ר.ה. the scribe simply elongated the י slightly by mistake, so it looks like a vav ו, but the fact that the א is there makes it certain that his intention was to write כארי - like a lion !!!!
Sorry, but Tovia is actually correct as the word mentioned in that psalm has an aleph between the caf and the resh and can thus ONLY mean "like a lion". While Strong´s Concordance (3738) conveniently conflates it with the word for "to dig", which has NO aleph between the caf and the resh, just so you know, alephs are NOT added randomly. Also, the sources you mention as Jewish, as elsewhere remarked, are NOT. I grew up entertaining the idea that J could have been the C, until i came across Tovia. See Jeremiah 16:19.
Hello it doesn't need to say pierced, the verb is to make open by violent action, like a lion biting with its teeth, It pierces with it's teeth. I have never heard of anyone casting lots for David's clothing. Plz show me where this happened to David in the Tanakh ? This scripture was fulfilled by the Roman soldiers at the crucifixion. Also notice the mockery and scorn of the passersby's in the Psalm, verse 8. 'All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me.' 'And kneeling before him they mocked him saying , "Hail King of the Jews!" Matt 27v29 Exactly what happened to Jesus . This is a public event, not a private one. This never happened to David. The one being described is being slaughtered to the point of actual death. King David died of old age at 70. The only malady the Bible mentions regarding David in his old age is the inability to stay warm(1Kings 1:1). The Bible says he “slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David” (1 Kings 2:10).
I am perfectly fine with the reading "like a lion." But it doesn't change messianic meaning of the verse. Either way, the verse speaks to the specific future suffering of Yeshua. Blessings, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots What you mean to say, is no motter what is really meant to say you will explain it about Jesus. I can do that about anything, we can always make things up and connect things. That is the deffinition of a conspiracy theory.
@@potato21012 the Targum of Psalm 22 understood this as Biting of Hands and Feet.. "a gathering of evildoers has hemmed me in, biting my hands and feet like a lion." - Targum, Psalm 22:16-17 When a Sharp teeth BITES, the sharp teeth Digs in your flesh or pierces your flesh... 🙄
what do you think about the take that Psalm 22 was not initially intended as prophetic just a well known passage for suffering persecuted Jews (reminding them that God will be with them and vindicate them even if they feel forsaken) and the person who wrote the Gospel of Mark used his description of the crucifixion it as a literary callback? Having Jesus and the gentiles around him enact the events of the Psalm, the author made an allusion to known scripture, making Jesus's death resemble the already accepted sentiment of God vindicating you while the authorities persecute you. Mark, the first person to introduce this Psalm into the narrative, already had a lot of literary devices in his Gospel, so it makes sense to add this one to the list. And citations of parallels from other Gospels don't show that it was more than a Markan literary creation, because Matthew and Luke definitely had Mark open while they were writing, and the author of John had at least a little familiarity with the Gospel of Mark, meaning that he could've been aware of the Psalm reference and kept it going in a few pieces of his narrative...he could've even just heard about it and thought it really happened (from one of his sources of information) and then read the Psalm before constructing his resurrection narrative, to add a reference to his narrative, so his readers would recognize it in the Psalm and read it to get a further message of what it means for Jesus to be killed. If there's no external evidence that this Psalm was originally read as prophecy, and instead just sacred text reminding Jews that God is with them through persecution, then the "literary device" explanation is more probable than the "these events happened like this in fulfillment of prophecy" explanation.
Hey, Greyz174. Thanks for weighing in! I understand the theory you're suggesting. However because I believe the NT is the inspired Word of God, I don't subscribe to that theory. Psalm 22 is referenced in more than just the gospels. It's also referred to in Philippians, Hebrews, Revelation, 2 Timothy, and Romans. I am open to the possibility that the author of Psalm 22 did not have prophetic or messianic intentions. However, the Holy Spirit inspired the author in such a way that it was revealed, in the end, to be prophetic of the messiah. Shalom, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots Hi Rob, Thanks for responding. Would you be open to sharing chapter/verse for where all of these references are in the Epistles and Revelation? Would be happy to look into them.
@@TheBiblicalRoots You have a big problem Prof. You beleive in the Bible and in the NT as God's word, yet Jews only beleive in the original Bible and not the NT so you can't prove the validity of the NT from itself, that is circular logic. Besides, if the NT is true the old Bible is a big hoax with many lies in the name of God because the NT contradicts many passages in it.
Did David's enemies rip up his garments and cast lots for his cloak? We never read of that happening to David. However Jesus merely quoted the first few words of Psalm 22, he did this in order to point those who knew and loved him( standing at the foot of his cross) to Psalm 22. So like as David suffered all those things even so he was also suffer them now. Do you think David is speaking literally here, or symbolically, did lions actually bit his hands and feet? I believe he is using language to express his inner feelings when his enemies closed in on him, Jesus uses the same words to describe his inneer feelings as well, yet Jesus actually suffered in reality the piercing of his hands and feet, his garments were taken from him and distributed among the soldiers, he experenced intense weakness and thirst as he hung on the cross, so what better words could he point to, too describe his sufferings.
Except the word Ka'aru doesn't exist anywhere in the bible. There is no other location where this word can be found. Likely, the scribe made an error, as lions are a recurring theme in that chapter, which would more than likely mean that ari or Ka'ari was the intended word.
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️ Transforming kaari (כָּאֲרִי) into kaaru (כָּאֲרוּ) by changing the letters kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), yod (י), which means “like a lion,” into kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), vav (ו) does not create the Hebrew word for “pierced,” In fact, kaaru doesn’t mean anything. In other words, this word kaaru does not exist in the Hebrew language; it’s little more than Semitic gibberish. In order to concoct a word that resembles kaaru, you would not only have to change the letter yod into a vav, but the letter alef would have to be removed altogether. This alteration would create the three-letter word karu (כָּרוּ),spelled kaf, raish, vav. Karu, however, does not mean “pierced” either. It means to “excavate” or “dig.” As mentioned, the words used in Tanach for “pierce” or “stab” are daqar or ratza, never karu, which does not have the connotation of “piercing” - as in puncturing flesh. For example, the King James Version renders אָזְנַיִם, כָּרִיתָ לִּי in Psalm 40:7 (verse 6 in a Christian Bible) metaphorically as “mine ears hast thou opened.” The Hebrew word כָּרִיתָ contains the same root as the word כארו (without the א aleph) that Christians claim is in Psalm 22:17, and it literally means “ears you have dug for me.” The message contained in Psalm 40:7 is clearly conveyed by its context. By digging or excavating his ear, the Psalmist is able to hear and perceive what God did and didn’t desire. If karah could be translated as “pierce,” this would mean that the Psalmist is piercing or stabbing his ears to hear God more clearly! The word כרו means to “open” or “excavate,” not rip through flesh.
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️ Written by Uri Yosef, Psalms 22 - "Nailing" An Alleged Crucifixion Scenario Lesson notes fragments containing Psalms 22:17[16] were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS). In the first fragment, which was found at Qumran (4QPs-f; known as the Qumran MS, the word in question is not preserved. In the second fragment, found at Nahal Hever (HHev/Se 4 (Ps); known as the Bar Kochba MS, the word is preserved. The fragment HHev/Se 4 (Ps) shows the Hebrew letters (kaf), (aleph), (resh), and what appears to be a somewhat elongated letter (yod), which some perceive to be the letter (vav).[3] Thus, the reading of this word would be either (ka'ari) or (ka'aru), respectively. Although the latter of these two renditions of the term has been the focus of much controversy and discussion, it is a fact that no root verb exists which contains the letter (aleph) in it, conjugated in this fashion (3rd-person, plural masculine gender, past tense), with the meaning of they pierced, as rendered in most Christian translations. Without the letter (aleph), and using, for the moment, the argument that the last letter [the elongated (yod)] is a (vav), the word would be (karu), for which the Hebrew root verb is (karah), [to] dig [in dirt], such as digging a ditch (e.g., Ps 57:7). In other words, (karu) has the meaning [they] dug [in dirt]. This verb is never used in the context of piercing, either literally or metaphorically, in any of its 15 applications in the Hebrew Bible. What could cause such a variation between the two terms (ka'ari) and (ka'aru), i.e., with an elongated letter (yod) that resembles the letter (vav)? Since the word (ka'aru) does not exist in the Hebrew language, the most plausible explanation is that such discrepancy is simply a case of scribal variation (or error). The word in Psalm 22 is ka'ari (lion) not karu (which means "to dig" BTW, as in digging a ditch, not pierce).
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️ Further, the next word after ka'ari is Yadayah, which translates as "her hands" So was jesus a woman , whose hands you assert were pierced, or did the scribe make a scribal error? Go learn Hebrew before you lecture on a language, for which you don't even know the Aleph Bet.
Rabbi Singer has such patience with this Missionair who tries to annihilate the Word of God. God our Lord הוי"ה ברוך הוא is with us, let us walk with HIM
You do not disclose that the two Bibles you use to give support, from a Jewish perspective, the accuracy of the translation are both messianic (ie, Christian) sources. Extremely dishonest or extremely lazy.
Hello, Cap'n! Your logical fallacy is: *genetic.* You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came. This fallacy avoids the argument by shifting focus onto something's or someone's origins. It's similar to an ad hominem fallacy in that it leverages existing negative perceptions to make someone's argument look bad, without actually presenting a case for why the argument itself lacks merit. See: yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic Shalom, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots The same fallacy in your very argument in the video. Captain here only pointed out the fallacy in bringing these interpretations as Jewish ones, which they are not.
Your way of showing love to our Jewish brothers, helping them understand their own language issues. Be glad my handwriting isn’t needed for important writings!
Same with any non English language. Depends on the decretals or the pointing lower or higher vowels. Same with the Koran with its Decretals additions. So thats the problem with the English language, not best language. Middle eastern languages originally had no vowels ,so the Masoretic texts introduced the vowel pointing for the reading or the vocal reading of scripture in the synaques.
Hello Rabbi Tovia. I've recently started reading the pistis sophia and had an apiphany. Please give me some answer as it's actually busted everything I thought I knew. Anyway as I was listening to the beginning I realise that the sophia asking "God" for help is the alms of pistis sophia and is why its called ps-alms as in pistis sophias alms or prayers. As for the text its self its absolutly brilliant and has awakened something Inside me that I just can't ignore. Let's get back to the pistis sophia as it's 100% a missing part of the truth of the Bible.
I think the Rabbi made his comment based on his argument that Christianity is a false religion. It might seem he is making an argument on something so small, when in reality he sees the bigger picture. That was just one example of the many.
Wow. I literally just read your entire article online before I was about to click "Play" on this video. As I scrolled to the bottom of the page of the article (after reading it), I see a photo of you and realized I was about to watch your UA-cam video. What a coincidence! Thank you for your extremely in-depth article regarding this topic. Now I shall watch your video :) God bless you, brother.
I used to try to follow the Torah-only for a few years. Tovia was my go to guy for a lot of things. I found Jesus 7 months ago and I feel I finally found my salvation. It's teachers like you who continue strengthening my faith. I too am studying Biblical Hebrew and I think it helps me out a lot.
I've seen you excusing your name and saying "no I'm not Jewish", Solberg is a common Norwegian name. 🙂
Praise God! I am so happy you found Jesus, Heimir! Yes, Solberg is a Norwegian name. When we visited Norway a few years ago we were invited to a sheep farm of a family named Solberg on a road named Solberg. It was lovely!
Gud velsigne deg, Rob
Thank you for this information. I love the way you broke it down.
I’m new to the study and I need all I can get. Thanks again.
Excellent rebuttal!
This was very helpful. I’m debating an online atheist and we each have three passages to support our case. Since the topic is prophecy as evidence for God, I have chosen Daniel 9:24-27; Psalm 22; and Isaiah 53. Your presentation is exactly what I was looking for presented in a respectful fashion. Thank you.
Great! I'm glad you found it helpful, Tom. Blessings, Rob
I hope the debate went well, my brother. With all due respect-and forgive me for what will be a brief and crude summery-Daniel 9:24-25 is one of the worst passages to defend. It is dishonestly translated in most English renditions. (The atnah [more or less equivalent to a semicolon], which occurs after "seven weeks [of years]" is deliberately moved to combine "seven weeks [of years]" (the time from the going out of the word until Cyrus the Great) with "sixty two weeks [of years]," and divorce this strange new combination of years from the rest of the sentence (the rebuilding of the streets and moat). In fact these are two separate time frames. 1611 KJB, NRSV, RSV, ESV, OJB, CJB might help. This is not a messianic prophecy in the Christological sense. (And I am a Christian, my brother.) And Cyrus the Great [the anointed/messiah/mashiyach who came 49 years (seven weeks of years) after the word went out] was a great example of God's provision and dominion over all-not unlike Rahab. ("I arm you, though you do not know me, so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other." - Isaiah 43) That example-which is expunged by the misrepresentation of these verses-should not be erased from our minds nor from history. It's a shame this stuff isn't more regularly corrected.
Fantastic explanation and very thought provoking. Thank you.
I appreciate how thorough you are!!!!!!
I loved how concise and clear you are presenting Toviah's argument and dismantling it. Great job!
When?
@@marybeck7594 11 months ago...when I watched it.
@@marybeck7594*Let's see what your MIDRASH and Rashi have to say about who this suffering person of PSALM 22 is* - Tovia argues in contrary to MIDRASH and Rashi and 2Samuel 23:1-3
*MIDRASH Pesikta Rabbati, 36:2*
“During the seven year period preceding the coming of the son of David, Iron beams will be brought low and loaded upon His neck until *THE MESSIAH'S body is bent low* . Then He will cry and weep, and His voice will rise to the very height of heaven, and He will say to God: Master of the universe, how much can my strength endure? How much can my spirit endure? How much my breath before it ceases? How much can my limbs suffer? Am I not flesh and blood? …During👉 *the ordeal of the son of David* 👈the Holy One, blessed be He, will say to him: *Ephraim, My true Messiah, Long ago, ever since the six days of creation, thou didst take this ordeal upon thyself* . At this moment, thy pain is like my pain. At these words,👉 *THE MESSIAH* 👈will reply: ‘Master of the Universe, now I am reconciled. The servant is content to be like his Master.'”
*PESIKTA RABBATI 37:137*
“Ephraim, *our true Messiah* , even though we are thy forbears, thou art greater than we, Because👉 *thou didst suffer for the iniquities of our children* ,👈 and terrible ordeals befell thee. For Israel thou didst become a laughingstock and a derision among the nations of the earth; And didst sit in darkness, in thick darkness, and thine eyes saw no light and👉 *thy skin cleaved to thy bones* , and thy body was as dry as a piece of wood 👈; and thine eyes grew dim from fasting, and👉 *thy strength was dried up like a potsherd* (Psalm 22:16),👈 All these afflictions👉 *on account of the iniquities of our children* .”👈
*RASHI PSALM 22:27 ON SEFARIA*
יאכלו ענוים. לעת הגאולה לימות המשיח:
The humble shall eat at the time of our redemption👉 *in the days of our Messiah* .👈
יחי לבבכם לעד. כל זה אומר לפניהם:
your hearts shall live forever I will say all this before them.
*RASHI ALSO UNDERSTOOD PSALM 22 AS A FUTURE MESSIANIC PROPHESY* 👇
*RASHI Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki*
“Why have You forsaken me?: They are destined to go into exile, and👉 *David recited this prayer FOR THE FUTURE* .”👈
*SOTAH 48B* - *DAVID WAS A PROPHET!* 👇
The Gemara poses a question: *_Who are the early prophets?_* Rav Huna says: This is referring to *_DAVID_* , and Samuel, and Solomon 👇👇👇
*2 SAMUEL 23:1-2* 👇
1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2 👉 *The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue* .👈
*TELL ME WHY THE PERSON BEING CRUCIFIED IN PSALM 22 ATONES FOR ALL NATIONS - How does his suffering bring gentiles to the God of Abraham* 👇👇👇
*PSALM 22:25-31*
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation:👉 *I will pay my vows before them that fear him* . *_(VICARIOUS ATONEMENT)_* 👈
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him👉: *your heart shall live for ever* *_👈(THOSE WHO SEEK HIM WHO PAID THEIR VOWS WILL LIVE FOREVER )_*
27 All the ends of the world shall *_REMEMBER and turn unto the Lord_* : and 👉 all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. *_(SEE DANIEL 7:13-14 & MATTHEW 28)_* 👈
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations. *_(ISAIAH 9:6-7, DANIEL 7:13-14)_*
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall👉 *bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul* .👈 *_(THIS PERSONS ACTIONS SAVE YOUR SOUL)_*
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. *_(ISAIAH 65:1-15)_*
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that *he hath done this* *_(THE LORD DID THIS AND IT REACHED ALL NATIONS)_*
👇 *QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER* 👇
#1 *WHAT DID THE LORD DO IN PSALM 22:31?*
#2 *WHY ARE PEOPLE BOWING DOWN TO THIS INDIVIDUAL?*
#3 *WHAT VOW IS BEING PAID IN PSALM 22:25?* The person *paying the vow* is the same one *whose hands and feet were pierced* and the same one whose clothes they gambled for - *NEVER HAPPENED TO DAVID* - *This person died a public execution* - The *VOWS PAID* in verse 25 result in *ETERNAL LIFE* for all those who believe in him and seek him in verse 26 - *VICARIOUS ATONEMENT!*
#4 *WERE DAVIDS CLOTHES GAMBLED FOR AS HE STOOD NAKED DYING IN FRONT OF PEOPLE?* - *NO!*
#5 *HOW DOES THIS PERSONS SUFFERING REACH ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO THE GENTILES?*
#6 *WHAT HAPPENED IN PSALM 22 THAT ALL THE GENTILES WILL REMEMBER AND COME TO THE GOD OF ABRAHAM IN PSALM 22:27? WHAT WILL THEY REMEMBER?*
*Now read MATTHEW 28 & DANIEL 7:13-14 TOGETHER - THE GREAT COMMISSION OF PSALM 22:22-31*
If your argument is that Psalm 22 does not refer to the Messiah, you are arguing against your own MIDRASH and Rashi. You're in a pickle now. A wise rabbi once said 👇
*Mark 3:25*
“And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.”
*None of your rabbis agree*
thank you for looking deeper into this, a wonderful reply to Rabbi Singer
We gotta talk bro'... this is awesome!! God bless your work!
Amen. Great conclusion, brother 🕊🤍💛
Thanks for the video.
On a quick note, "Orthodox Jewish Bible" and "Complete Jewish Bible" were placed under "Jewish translations." However, both publications are messianic (Christian) works.
Great info. Thank You. Side note the Aramaic text of the My God My God phrase offers for me a great proclamation by Christ
Very instructive.
Rob, you are the epitome of 2Tim 2:24-26. I listen to you often and your teachings strengthen my walk. Thank you.
Great job!
Great explanation. I'm finding Rashi commentary very interesting.
This poor Rabbi needs an experience with his Messiah! What a difference his life would have!
Thank you so much for doing this video, i never new the word pierced should have been like a lion at my hands and my feet, but i totally agree, that as a lion bites down, it is piercing flesh with its teeth, and the nails, which were hammered with great pressure pierced into the flesh hands and feet of our JESUS.
Thank you, Dr. Solberg. I always learn from you.
This verse is one quoted by Messiah on the cross, so we know its significant to him in some way, regardless of how the translation shakes out. In addition there are so many other verses and fulfilled prophecies surrounding Yeshua Messiah that regardless of the rendering of psalm 22 it has no impact on the validity of Yeshua Messiah as both LORD and
I got halfway through this video and found so many problems.....#1. As mentioned, numerous recent Christian translations of the Bible acknowledge that "Ari" means "lion" in Hebrew (footnotes, etc). They still keep "pierced" in their translations because they are using the mistranslation of the King James version as their base. So, on the one hand, they admit that "ari" means "lion" but they can't quite get rid of the King James mistranslation;
#2. An Orthodox Jewish translation that says "pierced"? There's not one Jewish English translation of the Psalms that uses the word "pierced" -- not among the Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or any other branch of Judaism. There may be a messianic Jewish translation of which I'm unaware but they are already believers in Jesus and no Jewish congregation would accept that translation;
#3 What is the "Complete Jewish Bible" that you mention where "pierced" is in the footnote? Again, a Jewish translation would not mistranslate the word "ari" which is referenced multiple times throughout the Tanach as a "Lion" (and, by the way, never translated as anything else in the New Testament except in Psalm 22 where there's a Christological goal of mistranslating) One of the most striking examples of this is in Genesis 49:9 where Jacob refers to his son Judah as a Gur Aryeh' גּוּר אַרְיֵה יְהוּדָה, "Young Lion" when he blessed him. Other Tanach references to "Ari" include the blessing to the tribe of Dan (Deut. 33:22), the story of Balaam who described the Israelites by saying Behold a people that riseth up as a lioness (lavi), and as a lion (ari),.
Ezekiel's vision of the lion, the ox, the eagle, and the cherub (Ezek. 1:10; 10:14).....why are these verses, and dozens of others in Tanach correctly translated as "lion" in Christian Bibles but in Psalm 22, it becomes a mistranslation or a footnote?
#4. Where do you get the word "karau"? There's no reference to such a word, either in Biblical or modern Hebrew. Ever. Nowhere else in the Tanach. Nowhere in any commentaries. Not even in modern Hebrew where, in the last 100 years, new words have evolved to meet the needs of a modern language. It's a made-up word, invented by a Christian who wanted to try to justify the "pierced" translation. So when an ancient parchment was found where the word "k'ari" (LIKE a lion) was smudged, he promoted his theory that the real word is "karau" and that word means "pierced." Except, aside from his imagination, there's no basis for that in Tanach.
Thanks, Laurie! I appreciate you taking the time to share your views on this issue. Suppose, for the sake of argument, I grant you every point you made. And suppose I agree that the correct translation should be "like a lion at my hands and feet." Here's a question for you: What is the lion doing with the hands and the feet? Is he licking them? Is he sniffing at them? Rashi interpreted this phrase as, "As though they are crushed in a lion's mouth." So it's a biting and a crushing that portrays great physical pain in the hands and the feet. And that's exactly what we see in the crucifixion of Jesus, whose hands and feet were nailed to the cross.
Shalom, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots yet if you read the pshat, the simple reading of the verse, David is saying that he feels like there are lions circling him. So isn't that the likelihood that that's what he means?
To try to recruit Rashi, for whom the pshat was the ideal way to understand scripture, to defend such a Christological reading is a tremendous disrespect to a great Jewish sage who would have been horrified to know that his explanation was being used to justify belief in Jesus.
If we're going to be honest, the simple reading of the verse is the most honest one -- David feels overwhelmed by his enemies who are encircling him like lions encircle their prey.
@@laurierappeport Great job, don't give in to the Messianic lies of Christianity!
Professor explained clear and simple! Its a poetic chapter. No one intentionally made a mistake. each verse have an animal and a weapon so the certain verse too.
ua-cam.com/video/MxV173rMXK4/v-deo.html
@@laurierappeport what?? you reject Rashi?? Even the TArgum understood this as BITING by a Lion on the hands and feet...
"a gathering of evildoers has hemmed me in, biting my hands and feet like a lion." - Targum, Psalm 22:16-17
Incredible video! 👍
I like how you stated that tovia singer is a good teacher. He is. Very well thought out and very knowledgeable. I actually download his theme song Adon olam. I really enjoy his videos and have learned from them. The problem is he doesn't see Christ and he is biased like we all are in some way. We should not be biased against the truth though!
*The oldest manuscript which we currently have access to, is the Nahal Hever manuscript from the Dead Sea scrolls. This manuscript of Psalm 22, does appear to say "they pierced my hands and my feet", due to the final letter being a yod, not a vav*
That was a great video, Thanks Rob I learned a lot Praise Jesus our Lord and Savior...God bless you brotha
Great explanations! Wow. This is seriously detailed!
@TorahLife very interesting thanks for your hard work in sharing this. Will look more into this! Shalom
So good!
It is absolutely an idiomatic translation derived from the LXX (that is often quoted by NT writers). The Greek word translated from the Hebrew in the LXX is ὤρυξαν which means "to dig, excavate". So, it appears that the translators used the LXX to derive what the lion idiom meant. A lion would tear into the victim with its teeth and claws and pierce the flesh. From the New Bible Commentary: "The translation they... pierced is not beyond doubt but avoids extensive alteration to the Heb. text, is supported by LXX, and suits both context and fulfilment."
Great job Rob! Just read this Psalm this morning!
Hi, Rob. I really like you, but was it honest to reference two Messianic Jewish bibles when quoting that passage? Both of those are sold in Christian bookstores. My versions from actual Jewish bibles, like The Complete Jewish Bible with Rashi commentary, has like a lion-
כארי
That seems a little sneaky.
Hi Michelle! The point I was making when referencing the different translations is that Christian translators were not trying to hide the textual issue in this verse. Most of them openly pointed it out in their footnotes. And I included a couple Messianic Jewish translations there, as well, since they also believe that Psalm 22 foretells the crucifixion of Jesus. And as I mentioned at the end of the video, either way you translate Psalm 22:16-whether it's "they pierced" or "like a lion"-it foreshadows the specific suffering endured by Jesus.
Shalom, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots Thanks so much for your reply! Most people don’t care enough to to respond. I’ve been following both you and the rabbi for a while. I just want the arguments to be fair, and the more I learn Hebrew the more I have trouble with the Christian argument. In-depth study of this one passage is what led me to Judaism from Catholicism. (I was raised Baptist as a child). שלום
1. The "Orthodox Jewish Bible" and the "Complete Jewish Bible" are not real Jewish Bibles, they are Christian Bibles used by Messianics. Messianics often use Jewish-sounding names for Christian things as a conversion tactic, to make Jews think that Christianity is the Jewish thing to do. None of the actual Jewish Bibles say "they pierced" because that's not what the Hebrew says.
2. "Like a lion" imagery is used by King David elsewhere in this and other Psalms besides this one, plus it is used in other parts of the Bible like Numbers 24:9 and Isaiah 38:13, but you can't find any instances of "ka-aru" meaning "they pierced", so the lion imagery makes more sense in the overall context.
3. This Psalm like many others would make sense as a hymn recited by many Jews throughout history who are experiencing these types of trials. I find that most of the supposed Jesus prophecies hinge on an argument over a single word, or a single passage which makes much more sense in its original context without reading it through the lens of Christianity.
Singer was destroyed by michael Brown Jesus is the true messiah zech 9 9 .
@TorahLife4Life Yes Johnny cope is a good tune play it myself on practice chanter.
@TorahLife4Life Cope with what jesus is messiah get used to it.
@TorahLife4Life Jesus is the true messiah your mr singer has been harmered by brown wont debate jacob prasch s hebrew greek scholar your wee buns you dont count repent or perish.
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️ it is called ancient corrupted text. Such an argument is not scientific, why go with this torn scrap which you have no idea who wrote? This argument is rediculous and shows how little Christians know about Hebrew
Mr. Solber I admire you because you are seeking the truth and that is great. This is not about what's said like a lion or pierce. My question is with all my respect to you Sir. What do you want to said lion or pierce? Obvious, pierce right. I know that you, Christians wants to see Yeshua Nitzare in all the bible to confirm that he is the messiah right? This is not an issue, Sir. We Jews respect and love Christians of course. But the only thing that bother us is that the missionaries wants to convert Jews, that's all Sir. I hope that you understand my point. I have a lot of Christians friends that I love and respect so much. Keep your good job. I admire you and respect you. Shabbath Shalom Salomon
You are blessed for knowing Jesus Christ as Messiah
God bless you!!
Great vid
I know that Rabbi Singer also referenced the found parchment within the Dead Sea Scrolls of Psalm 22, which uses the word Lion. Moreover, the word lion in Hebrew does not simply have a one-letter difference from pierced. The word lion is אַריֵה, and the word pierced is מְנוּקָב. Interested, I searched out the image of the Parchment and it in fact does appear to say Lion in Hebrew. I'm very interested in this debate as a Christian Pastor.
I do agree that it may be immaterial whether the word is lion or pierced, as there is so much to this chapter and verse that declares it Messianic. I don't imagine King David believed he was going to bring all nations to the one true God.
Absolutely love it, made my day. Very greatful for the insight and content....
I would like to discuss the 'gap' and my Theodicy... let me know if you have time, I habe the 'goods'. Excellent work sir - Shalom!
Definitely a point in your camp. Tovia Singer was went a bit too far with his statement that the error was made deliberately. We can't know this.
Even if it wasn't deliberately, that still means psalms 22 has nothing to do with jesus, at least doesn't have to
Well presented. One critique: the Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB), despite it's name, is not a Jewish Tanakh; it is a Christian Bible with Yidish and Chasidic expression (similar to the CJB, "Complete Jewish Bible"). Maybe choose a Jewish Publication Society (JPS) Tanakh or an Artscroll for a Jewish representation next time.
Excellent!
The rabbi's claim is unfounded, since the early church (and practically all Jewish synagogues, for that matter, before and during the time of Christ) used the Greek Septuagint LXX, which preserves the meaning "they pierced my hands and my feet." The Dead Sea Scrolls also preserve this meaning. The Masoretic Text of the "Hebrew Bible" did not come into existence until the 10th century AD, and was compiled by scribes who wanted to obscure any Christological references found in the LXX. So, in reality, it was the Jewish scribes who altered Scripture, not the Church.
Only the actual LXX was compiled by Christians just as was the Masoretic text, which is just the Hebrew bible as it survived to the 10th century. And the dead sea scroll changes the yod to vav in many words, and K'ARU is not even a word in Hebrew.
So why does the LXX translate the exact same Hebrew word from the Psalm as 'lion' in Isaiah 38:13?
@@drewcoope the thing is that, there was no one Septuagint for Psalms, and the test of the bible other than the books of moses. There were many greek translations circling around. And after a while, the jews stopped using them when greek wasn't spoken anymore, so the church had a free hand doing what they wanted to the bible, with no one to call them out. The dead see scrolls do not support it aswell, as the word scribed there is clearly a mistake, as it is completely meaningless. It is a very small mistake, between a י to a ו just a stretched stroke of ink.
@@drewcoope Why would synagogues use the LXX? We use the Hebrew text.
@@gavrielsanders8681
Here a further and better illustration ;
Psalm 22:16 - “like a lion” or “they pierced”?
An ancient controversy has surfaced once again in our times. It revolves around the text of Psalm 22:16 (verse 17 in the Hebrew). In the Hebrew Masoretic text, the verse reads: “For dogs have encircled me, an evil congregation surrounded me; like a lion my hands and my feet.” The Lxx translation, however, did not read the Hebrew word yria}K,; ka’ari, “like a lion” but rather Wra}K,; ka’aru, “they dug,” and thus they translated the word with the Greek word w[ruxan, oruxsan, “they dug” or “they pierced.” The difference was whether the original word ended with a vav or a yod. Virtually
all English translations (except those offered by Jewish publications) have followed the Lxx translation instead of the Masoretic text, giving us the wellknown phrase, “they pierced my hands and my feet.”To some this appeared as an obvious example of Christian translators choosing to follow the Lxx because it t their messianic interpretation of the passage, disre- garding the clear reading of the Hebrew original. What is more, the Lxx was accused of changing the original to bolster the Christian interpretation of the Psalm.Unfortunately, the Psalms Scroll found at Qumran did not include 22:16[17] because the manuscript was damaged at the very place where it would have appeared. The preMasoretic text seemed lost forever. That is, until recently. Scraps from a scroll containing some of the Psalms were discovered at Nachal Hever, and one scrap contained the line from Psalm 22:16 with the word in question well in view. Though the writing on the scrap was faint, under magnification it was easy to see and decipher. The word clearly ended in a vav not a yod, and was therefore a 3rd person plural verb: “they dug” or “they pierced.” Here was evidence that the Lxx translators had not “fooled” with the text, but had faithfully translated the Hebrew original that was before them. Since this scrap is dated (in accordance with the style of letters used) to 50-68 CE, it is almost 1000 years earlier than the Aleppo Codex, the earliest extant manuscript of the Masoretic text, and shows that in at least one of the earliest Hebrew traditions of Psalm 22, the word is not “like a lion” but “they dug” or “pierced.” Dr. Peter Flint, who published the principle edition of the scrap, notes that in the Herodian script, “vav and yod are usually distinguished, with vav generally longer than yod.”1 Indeed, in this instance, we have a perfect example for comparison, since the very next letter following the word in question is a yod: “my hands” (ידיה). The last letter of ka’aru is without doubt a vav when compared with the beginning letter of the next word which is clearly a yod. Here, then, is a Hebrew manuscript, pre-Christian, with “they dug” or “they pierced.”
When Rabbi Tova said that in Daniel 9 the death of Christ is recorded but in the Christian bible the New Testament it is not and how it should have been important for them to recorded in the New Testament .
I would like to reply by saying that the Old Testament it has already been recorded so there was no need to recorded again . The Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible.
Also, the word lion make absolutly no sense . The one thing that had to happen was to blind Jewish people so that the gentiles would be grafted in the tree of life . We must pray that the Jewish people will be able to see soon love them all
Said it before, but I'll say it again. You've got to have a discussion of some kind with tovia singer, it would really be fascinating.
You've got some good content on your channel, I quickly subscribed.
Thanks!
@@TheBiblicalRoots I just found out your debate is scheduled for July 2022 in Nashville. Good news!
Really a good explanation, and I’ve read your comment section as well, with the Hebrew scholars/speakers giving their two cents.
But I commented so that you might look into a book, “Return of the Kosher Pig,” by Itzhak Shapira. A Jewish believer in the Messiah, he looks at Jewish sources pointing to the Messiah, some not seen before in English. The book cost anywhere from $13 used, to $25 new from Amazon. I hope you read it and enjoy it. I think it would help you in your defense of our Savior.
Tovia Singer is smart and charismatic, a good source of information. On my list is your debate with him from his channel. It’s going to be good!
Very Interesting. What do you know about the old original Hebrew. A person told me that in Genesis 1&2 the original language doesn’t say and the "evening and the morning " were the first day...no, that it says "morning and evening." which is opposite.
Hi Nicole. I just checked my Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible and my 100% Hebrew Tenakh (OT). Both have 'erev' (evening) preceding 'boker' (morning). I would attach a picture here if I could. Possibly, quite possibly, that person was reading the Interlinear English word order left-to-right, instead of the correct way. [Hebrew reads right-to-left, and the Interlinear translation is directly above.] I've seen this happen before. For example, for Gen 1:1, my Interlinear reads left-to-right: 'The earth and the heavens God created in the beginning'. Reading correctly right-to-left, it says 'In the beginning created God the heavens and the earth'. Same meaning of course. But evening definitely precedes morning, and this is the basis for Jewish holidays beginning at sundown, as that is when the 'day' begins, Scripturally.
PS. The Interlinear Greek English Bible doesn't have this problem as both languages read left-to-right.
Brother I think you are spot on... good job brother
Thanks, Marvin! Shalom, Rob
Very helpful. Thank you.
Did you conveniently forget to mention the miraculous Septuagint Old Testament translation
"The Orthodox Jewish Bible, completed by Phillip Goble in 2002, is an English language version that applies Yiddish and Hasidic cultural expressions to the Messianic Bible. " Biblegateway
Meaning it's a Christian Bible dressed in a bekisha and Striemal
Exactly! That was the point of me including that Messianic translation.
Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots It would have been nicer if the author was not so deceptive. Call it the Yiddish Christian Bible.
The original word is Kaari like a lion. It is not Kaaru or Karu. Kaaru does not exist and Karu means to dig and it never refers to the piercing of the flesh. Therefore only Kaari is the original word. The Septuagint uses the oruxan which is always translated for Karu. And oruxan in the Greek literature never refers to piercing. This is why Tovia Singer accuses the Christians of wrongly translating in English as pierced rather than a scribal error in the manuscripts. Psalm 22 is in the present tense and it is David's prayers as he was facing hardship and threat from enemies. Christians distort Rabbinic writings to prove that Psalm 22 is futuristic. Rashi interpreted Psalm 22 as refering to the Jews in future exile at the level of midrash and not peshat. Chrisitans should learn the difference between midrash and peshat. If one uses such a methodology like the Christians one could even make a case that Psalm 22 refers to a woman as Rashi himself mentions in verse 1 that his sages interpreted Psalm 22 as referring to Esther. Please realise this interpretation is at the level of midrash and not peshat(literal exegesis). Psalm 22 should be correctly interpreted as like a lion they are after my hands and feet. This trouble is yet to happen and is near not like the crucifixion which should be in the present tense. Some verses later the psalmist glorifies God for saving him from the mouth of the lions which if interpreted for Jesus would mean Jesus was not crucified and that he was saved from this threat.
Oruxan is a derivative of the Greek word “Orusso,” meaning “to dig” or “to burrow.” When considering how considerably more ancient our manuscripts of the Septuagint are compared to the Masoretic text, it is reasonable to conclude that “pierce” is a more accurate rendering. Especially since the “to dig/burrow” one’s hands can be read as analogous to “pierce” one’s hands, while “to dig/burrow” is not analogous to “like a lion.”
Also, for the record, it is disingenuous to say “this can’t mean that, because this never means that.” It’s like making the argument that there’s no evidence, having evidence presented to you that’s contrary to your point, saying it’s not real evidence, then going back to step one. That’s basically what you’ve done by saying Karu is never used in that way. Since the Greek translation indicates the Jewish translators of this ancient version of the scriptures saw “to dig” as more accurate, they saw the word as “Karu.” The Church Fathers used this information for centuries before the earliest existing copies of the Masoretic text, which gives credence to the idea that a scribe would be motivated to redo the vowels to delete what non-Jews were using as a messianic verse that pointed to Jesus. I can basically go with Karu and the translations and ancient usage of the words are harmonized, or I can go with a random vowel change that breaks the harmony of lining up with older versions (and conveniently undermines a reference to Jesus to boot).
@@retro-orthodox anyways you are pointing to an exceptional scenario in order to fit Jesus in Psalm 22. It rather works well with kaari
@@retro-orthodox The original Septuagint has no remaining copies and only included the first 5 books. The Psalms was not included until centuries later.
@@CallingToIslam_org There’s a world apart from arguing that something “works well with” something else and your initial post.
I would argue it’s hardly exceptional when you consider one scenario has two words that align much closer (karu vs oruxan) as opposed to another scenario where the two words are night and day (kaari vs oruxan). One could make such a proposal, to be sure, but you then have to prove that the Masoretic text (of which the earliest manuscript dates from the 11th Century) is a more faithful manuscript to the originals than the Greek translations used and produced by the same religious communities would have been 700 years earlier.
When you add to that the fact that these existing Greek manuscripts align more to the Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls than the Hebrew of the Masoretic text, I feel like it’s even more reasonable to accept the Septuagint reading. For example, the missing verse of Psalm 145, the number of Jacob’s descendants (75 aligns with the DSS, Septuagint, Book of Acts, and Church Fathers, while the Masoretic text has the number at 70), the “sons of God” (as reported in the DSS and Septuagint) as opposed to the “sons of Israel” (again, from a text that no physical copies of exist until 1200-1300 years later) in Deuteronomy 32:8, etc. And that last one carries a pretty big theological difference.
Thank you for an interesting discussion regardless!
That man is a blessing
Good video
Thanks!
Rob
As a Nazarene (Messianic Jew) I agree with a lot of your vids. shalom@@TheBiblicalRoots
Wow! Very cool. It’s insane how similar those Hebrew letters are. Thank you for sharing! Very well made video.
Thanks for watching, Riley!
Its also insane how that Hebrew word with a vav doesn't actually mean anything, and isn't a real word. Lame apologetics for lame Christian paganas
The lion theme concerning enemies is found in other places in the Psalms so for anyone to say the Rabbis changed it is without merit.
In Psalm 22 alone we see lions mentioned more than once.
Psalm 22:13
They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion.
Psalm 22:21
Save Me from the lion’s mouth And from the horns of the wild oxen! You have answered Me.
Psalm 7:2
Lest they tear me like a lion, Rending me in pieces, while there is none to deliver.
Like a lion here in Psalm 7:2
What does it say in Hebrew?
738 [e]
kə·’ar·yêh
כְּאַרְיֵ֣ה
like a lion
What does Psalm 22:16 say in Hebrew?
Jeremiah 49:19
What does it say for like a lion here?
Numbers 24:9
What word is used for (like a lion) here?
Isaiah 38:13
What word is used for (like a lion) here?
Psalm 22:16
NET Bible
Yes, wild dogs surround me--a gang of evil men crowd around me; like a lion they pin my hands and feet.
Psalm 22:16
MEV
For dogs have encompassed me; the assembly of the wicked has enclosed me; like a lion they pin my hands and my feet;
We can clearly see what the context is about and other translations agree (like a lion) is not some invention used to hide anything.
Animals are often used to personify enemies.
It's true that Psalm 22 is a "lament Psalm" that is very poetic which uses animals as metaphor ,lots of parallelism and stuff.
It seems to be natural and logical to have the phrase like " Like a lion " כארי my hands and my feet " , which doesn't really make sense though. Then to smooth it out a verb is added ! "Like a lion [ They maul ] my hands and my feet ."
Look let's dig deeper !
In this lament psalm , there are complaints , Requests and Thanksgiving.
However ,there are 03 specific complaints that correspond to 03 Requests that are usually in IMPERATIVE form.
You will see how the Complaints and Requests are connected to each other .
The first complaint is found in :
✓ Ps 22: 12 [ 11] :
"Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For THERE IS NONE TO HELP "
This complaint corresponds to the Request found in Ps 22: 20 [ 19] :
" But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me; O My Strength, HASTEN TO HELP ME !
There is none to help hasten to help me.
✓The second complaint is found in
Ps 22 :13-14 [ 12-13] where it mentions " Bulls and Lion" :
" Many BULLS have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring LION."
This complaint corresponds to the Request found in Ps 22:22[ 21 ] :
"Save Me from the LION’s mouth And from the horns of the wild OXEN! "
Each animal in the complaint found its mate in the Request.
Bulls Oxen
Lion Lion
✓The third and last complaint is found in Ps 22:17 [ 16] where it mentions " Dogs and Lion" according to the majority of Masoretic text reading :
" For DOGS have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
Like a LION [ they maul] My hands and My feet ."
This complaint corresponds to the Request found in Ps 22:21 [ 20] :
" Deliver Me from the SWORD , My precious life from the power of the DOG ."
Lion Sword ????
Dogs Dog .
where is the Lion ?? The Lion is expected to be mentioned in the Request .
The Dog is mentioned ,instead of Lion it mentions " sword ".
On the other hand, if we go with the reading according to the LXX ,DSS ,Peshitta ,and some masoretic texts ,it goes :
" They pierced my hands and my feet"
which corresponds perfectly to
" deliver me from the SWORD "
Ps 22:17 [ 16] :
" For DOGS have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
THEY PIERCED My hands and My feet ."
Corresponds exactly to the Request in
Ps 22:21 [ 20] :
" Deliver Me from the SWORD , My precious life from the power of the DOG ."
They Pierced Sword
Dogs Dog .
The sword ( חרב) PIERCES!
If "Lion "is not mentioned in the Request , logically it is absent in the corresponding complaint.
Common sense can tell you Jesus is not talking in Ps 22, Do you think Jesus is saying what is in Ps 22;4?
@@kofiboat779 Good point!
@@kofiboat779 what's your problem with Psam 22:4?
@@krishyyfan5153 do you think Jesus is saying anything in Ps 22? It is David and has nothing to do with Jesus.
There is a tendency to change the text to match one's desires, but in this case, the alteration makes the interpretation's Christian aspect even more valid. As was said, Rabbi Singer is looking to cast doubt upon the validity of the test and, in that way, undermining the Christian faith. I have watched the Rabbi for as long as he has been publishing on UA-cam. While I admire his insight, intelligence, and biblical knowledge, he's on a mission to validate Judaism at the expense of Christianity. His unflattering reference to southern boys in Arkansas suggests they are all uneducated, which, as we know, is not a fact but just another way of attempting to discredit those with whom he disagrees.
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for taking the time to do it. David points forward to Christ. Maybe the best example is where long long after David was dead God says 'I will set David as King" and "I will set David as Shepherd" as bookends in Ezekiel surrounding the new covenant and the resurection of the dry bones.
Rabbi singer wins again
Psalm 22:28 All the ends of the earth shall remember and return to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall prostrate themselves before You. ~ David says that all the people will bow to G-d not to David.
And not to Jesus or any human either
@@potato21012Jesus is god tho ?
Around 500 A.D. the Hebrew Mesaretic translation made at that time was altered to make the passages quoted by Paul and other gospel preachers in the New Testament not match those quotes.
I’m ready for this debate
Jesus cannot be the Jewish Messiah for MANY reasons, per scripture, and there is no Hebrew scripture about a "second coming". *See article:* " The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims" (Jews For Judaism) Excerpt below is *just a portion of the fairly long article:*
11. According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.
There are two problems with this claim:
1. There is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
2. Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).
3. To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:
1. There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.
2. Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.
3. Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14; I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)
4. Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.
The concept of Messiah is Jewish. To find out about it go to the source.
What about this verse "they will look at whom they pierced"?
BUT RABBI TOVIA IS WILLFULLY IGNORING THE SEPTUAGINT.
Besides, when it says, "the Hebrew" it usually means the Masoretic Text.
I would really like to see someone challenge the MASORETIC editors and translators, who somehow, POST CHRIST'S ADVENT, found "Like a Lion" to be the proper translation, when there ARE earlier texts in Hebrew which say, "pierced" and the Septuagint, which is PRE CHRISTIAN, which says, Pierced.
AND "Pierced" makes sense, whereas "like a lion" makes no sense. It's the Masoretes who were most likely deceitful.
Idiom and metaphor
Isn’t Hebrew full of those?
I watch a UA-camr who speaks nearly fluent Chinese. He only lacks, according to native speakers, fluency in the idiomatic expressions which can come from an immersion in the literary context and import of the language. Is there a source for Hebraic idioms?
Here is one I consult from time to time. But it only lists idioms from the Tanakh (aka Hebrew Bible, our Old Testament). www.ancient-hebrew.org/language/ancient-hebrew-idioms.htm
~Rob
But nothing proves or assures or points here to jesus specifically, you can interrupt this for anyone! So this isnt proof!
Sorry, you can’t use the Septuagint for
Psalm 22.
If this Psalm is about Jesus who is speaking when it says (my transgressions)?
Brenton Septuagint Translation
For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.
Why can't I use the Septuagint for Psalm 22?
@@TheBiblicalRoots I am not saying you can't use it, I am saying it defeats your argument that it is about Jesus.
If this Psalm is about Jesus who is speaking when it says (my transgressions)?
Brenton Septuagint Translation
For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️ I appreciate the information, this answer still needs context. I show verse for verse the context of Psalm 22 and the answer you provided has the burden of usage concerning everywhere this word is used. The lions theme is not only in Psalm 22 but in other places as I show in the videos. Other Translations also say (like a lion), not just Jewish translations.
Do not believe me, just view the information. Shalom.
ua-cam.com/video/wXUFH75UQk8/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/TyyC87MxfTg/v-deo.html
@@cloudsoftorah6167 he took the Sins of the People because he is a Sin offering... ST. Paul uses the same language.
"God made him who had no sin to be ❌sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
(2 Corinthians 5:21)
@cloudsoftorah6167 David penned the words for one thing. Even so, it's not a stretch if Jesus felt that way, because he felt the sins of the world on him.
The leader of the HRM group my husband is in, came from an upbringing in Judaism…he sounds and they sound so much like this rabbi…the accusations against the Bride of Christ are constant mantra in my house and in this fellowship…that’s not to say man has not done any fiddling with scripture to confuse, but ultimately, Jesus is the final authority…His Word through His disciples says, the Holy Spirit, will lead you into all truth. If you allow Him to lead you through scripture and let scripture speak through Him, there is nothing man can do to the Word to make it void…much of what HRM is about is a type of deconstruction of faith, only the opposite direction of the progressive movement…both are highly destructive if not discerned before one gets too deep…pray hard before you go down any new path and allow time for the Holy Spirit to speak…Come Lord Jesus!
I hear you, but many go down the "HR path" because although we may say Jesus is the final authority, in reality as Christians we would reply to almost all disagreement with, "But Paul said/wrote..." so the reality is that for majority of Christians, Paul is the final authority, even if we would agree that Paul and Jesus don't contradict... Truth be told, the Christian religion cannot stand on Jesus life and teachings alone, hense many go down the "HR path" looking to have Jesus as their example and final authority... Some may be lead off to the other side of the path(various Jewish sects), but my experience is that many are sincerely searching and we pray that The Most High will keep them and lead them on their journey with Him.
We got evidence in the septuagint where it clearly says in verse 16, Psalm 22: They pierced. The septuagint is dated back to the 1rst century CE even before the masoretic texts that have the manipulated scripts by the masoretes.
Only your Septuagint was manipulated by Catholics and the Masoretic text is the original language which means its the closest thing you can get.
Also if you say this you must make the claim that Masoretes took the word karo and instead of changing it to something closer and grammatically convenient, like KARTO - they cut off - they changed two letters and made it KA'ARI - difficult to understand , nonsensical and grammatically out of place. Rule of thumb in ancient text study - generally ,the more difficult version is the accurate, as it is more likely someone changed it because he didn't understand then the other way around.
Psalm 22:5 Our ancestors trusted in You; they trusted and You rescued them. ~ Who are the ancestors of Jesus if he is god or the son of god?
Psalm 22:7 But I am a worm and not a man; a reproach of man, despised by peoples. ~ Was jesus a worm? I thought he was sinless and god in flesh? Gospels teach that jesus was loved by everyone right?
He was hated for speaking truth.
17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. יזכִּֽי־סְבָב֗וּנִי כְּלָ֫בִ֥ים עֲדַ֣ת מְ֖רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּֽ֜אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי: from Tanakh.
Where is the verb the lion ate it
Rabbi Singer speaks pure emet! B'H
Rabbi Singer spoke some sheker in that emet. He seemed to overlook certain explanations, instead seeking polemic against the Church. Rabbi Singer is well aware of the details included by Prof. Solberg in this video, but again, he chose to not give them for whatever reason… Perhaps for purposes of deception?
מספיק לבלבל במוח, הרב סינגר הוא סלפן פטולוגי,
תראה כמה סרטונים מיקל בראון הוציא עליו והראה את השקרים שלו
ua-cam.com/play/PLOSesbHxQr2TKM79aSxPLfOyOS5f7Q20z.html
תממש לאמת ותראה שישוע הוא המשיח בן האלוהים, רק עם התנ״ך אפשר להוכיח את זה,
שבת שלום❤
Rabbi Tovia singer tells the truth!
Call no man rabbi. actually amazing how Jews do the opposite of Christ. Oh that's that don't believe in Jesus.
I’m Jewish who is now Christian. Come to Jesus
Good job on analysis. To me it is disturbing to even compare Psalm 22 to Jesus because down in verse 30 those who bow to him just go into the dust. But if you consider the two Jesus in the NT then it does not cause concern
Which Hebrew manuscript has כארו besides one Dead Sea Scroll fragment, which already has other typos? Which is more likely: that every Tanach in the universe was changed (including in Yemen where there was no Christianity), or that this one DSS fragment had a typo among many typos?
I’m surprised that having a phd doesn’t warn him of his circular reasoning.
I don't think Rabbi Singer has a Ph.D. ;-)
R.
@@TheBiblicalRoots you know I wasn’t referring to him, come on. :)
Not all circular reasoning is a fallacy.
Pslams 22:16
כִּ֥י סְבָב֗וּנִי כְּלָ֫בִ֥ים עֲדַ֣ת מְ֭רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי
The traditional translation reads: For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. (Psalms 22:16)
What is meant by “like a lion my hands and feet”?
Possible answers:
Now, this grammatical structure is not at all awkward, as incomplete and broken phrases appear many times throughout the Bible in the form of ellipses. It’s stylistic and poetic.
We don’t have to look far for an example, as verse 2 uses this very layout: “Far from helping me … the words of my cry.”
(Which means to convey that not only have you distanced yourself from being present to help me, your distance is to the extent of not even hearkening to my cries.)
Thus, what is possibly meant by, “…like a lion my hands and my feet” ?
They pulverised, like a lion would, his hands, which represent his means of fighting back, and feet, his means of fleeing.
Or, the comparison can also be expressed as David having the strength of a lion in both his hands and feet, so as to stand up against the pack of dogs, for a single lion can match a pack of dogs.
The Christian translation claims:
The word כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י/like a lion/Ca’ari should actually be written as “כארו”, allegedly meaning “they pierced”, which is a verb in the plural, past tense.
The verse would then read, “…they pierced my hands and feet.”
Problems:
1. Etymologically speaking there is no such root as “כאר”, nowhere.
2. Perhaps the Alef/א is superfluous, and it’s as if it was written as, “כרו” “Caru” ? Saying that the Alef/א is superfluous and that the root is “כרה”/“Cara”, or “כור”/“Cur”, or a similar argument, also doesn’t resolve the issue.
These cognate roots are literally related to an act of “rounding/roundness”, as will be demonstrated, and are expressed as either digging the ground or making a heap, or, some action or article that expresses “roundness”, corresponding and having a convex-like or rounded attribute, nothing to do with piercing through, at all!
The correct root to convey “piercing” or “stabbing” would have been ״דקר״, as in Numbers 25:8, or ״רצע״, as in Exodus 20:13.
Let’s be clear, Jesus’ hands and feet were not “dug” or “heaped”, a senseless and useless suggestion.
Here are examples of the roots כרה״” and “כור”.
ויכרו שם עבדי יצחק../…And the servants of Isaac dug there
(Genesis 26:25)
The verse speaks of digging a well, and according to the literal root, it means “to round out” the ground, hence, to dig out, nothing to do with piercing through, especially not boring through a body part.
כי יכרה איש בור…/…When a man digs a pit
(Exodus 21:33)
The verse speaks of digging a pit, again, nothing to do with piercing through.
ויכרה להם כרה גדולה…
And he set a large meal before them… Or more literally, he heaped for them a large HEAP of food
(Kings 2 6:23)
Here, the “roundness/rounding” is being expressed inversely, as a heap.
ויוציא אתכם מכור הברזל…/And He took you
out of the iron crucible/smelting pot
(Deuteronomy 4:20)
A “CUR” (which bears the same alleged root) is a pot used for smelting metal, a smelting-pot, or a vessel that has been “rounded” in dimensions
מפזז ומכרכר…/
David was moving to and fro and dancing in circles
(Samuel 2 6:16)
The verb “כרכר/Circer” is the doubled root version of the root כור/Cur; their basic meaning is interchangeable. Again, a primitive root having to do with some type of “rounding out”, in this case, dancing in circles. Again, the same idea of “rounding/roundness”.
וככר לחם אחת…/
And one loaf of bread, or more literally a round bun
(Exodus 29:23)
Again, the same theme, “roundness”.
…וחלב כרים…/and the fat of lambs
(Deuteronomy 32:14)
Again, since the lamb’s wool imparts a bulgy and “round” semblance unto it, they are referred to as, “Carim/כרים”, from the so-called root.
And the list goes on…
None of these verses speak even remotely about piercing through something, much less piercing through bodies.
This root clearly supports the presumption of “roundness”, whether in the sense of digging, forming, dancing etc.
There are actually relevant Hebrew verbs that are used to express “piercing through something”, especially piercing through flesh, as mentioned above.
(Language fact)
3. The next point is even more astonishing! The first reference of this verse referring to Jesus appears in the 2nd century. This verse is never quoted in the NT as referring to Jesus! Now, think for a moment, you would have to believe that the writers of the NT knew that it said in Psalm 22, “…they pierced my hands and my feet”, nevertheless, none of them, not Paul, not the writer of Hebrews, not the writer of the letters of John, no one thought that it might have been significant enough to quote !!!? You know why ? Because it didn’t exist ! Think about that for a moment and lament the lie.
(The fact that Psalm 22 is cited in parts in the NT, and that this alleged verse isn’t even alluded to, is no answer at all, for given the choice, this verse should have certainly been at the forefront of citations from Psalm 22 ! There is in fact no greater quotation in the OT that would have assisted the NT in its endeavor. Yet, to claim is was left out because other parts of 22 were mentioned, is a preposterous hypothesis.)
4. The Psalm begins with, “To the Chief Musician. Set to "The Deer of the Dawn". A Psalm of David.” Yes, It’s Psalm of none other than David. Why distort the context ? David had his share of tribulations. His own father-in-law wanted to kill him, his own son wanted to kill him, he didn’t lack a reason to compose this Psalm. There is no reason to attribute this psalm other than to David. (Point about general context)
5. David begins the verse by comparing his enemies to dogs surrounding him, “For dogs have surrounded me…”, ending the verse with, “a piercing of the hands and feet”, is incongruent for dogs don’t pierce through hands and feet, they bite and tear. It is far more reasonable to assume a comparison to lion, to convey either that the damage that was inflicted upon his means of defense (his hands and feet) rendered them utterly incapacitated (To emphasise this it was necessary to use the analogy of a lion instead of a dog, for the damage inflicted by a lion is incomparably greater than that of a dog; while a pack of dogs was more fitting for the manner in which they convened upon him), or, to insinuate that David’s defensive stance was comparable to that of a lion, possessing the necessary strength to defend against a pack of dogs. (Point about specific context)
There is no basis to arbitrarily insert Jesus in the OT whenever one feels like it.
Phenomenal response, to which there is no counter argument to be made.
@@D18.21 thank you. I’m just trying to bring perspective and proper understanding of Biblical exegesis.
@@Jack-vy2vx
You're doing a wonderful job and in a cogent and succinct manner. Beautiful work. I hope you continue your effort to enlighten others.
You're literally the very best responder I've seen on what I would say is hundreds of Christian and or missionary pages. Be well, stay healthy and keep it up.
Great job!
@@D18.21 thank you, very much appreciated.
My focus, of course, are only points that borrow from the Torah. These distortions, sometimes, are so incredibly profound that it’s astounding that these expositions are left unchallenged.
The beauty of the Oral Law and its commentators is , in summary, the ability and framework to plumbed the depths and dissect the meaning of each and every verse; why exactly is it interpreted this way and not another.
You make an excellent case, Jack! Thanks. Let's go with "like a lion."
As I mentioned at the end of the video, whether we interpreted v17 as saying "they pierced" or "like a lion," doesn't really matter. Either way you slice it, it speaks of damage to the hands and feet. Which is what Christians see as foreshadowing the specific suffering of Christ. (And, BTW, verse 17 is just one of at least five connections between Jesus and Psalm 22, starting with v1, which Christ quoted from the cross. So it's not as if it were a random connection being made.)
Shalom,
Rob
First, the problem with Christian understanding of Jewish things, is they don't understand Jewish things. The Torah is the ultimate and ONLY word of God, written by God, in Judaism. The prophets and the writings are inspired by God, not written by him, and are thus considered fallible. Why does this matter? When Jews set out to create the Septuagint translation, they only focused on the Torah. Jews still only focus on Torah. They did not translate the entire Hebrew bible into Greek, only the Torah. Greek translations of any other books were not done by the Rabbis or scholars, but by others, most likely later Christians.
Second, Ka'aru is spelled with a kuf (Looks like P), not a kaf (looks like a backwards C). Different letters all together. Kuf-alef-resh-vav, vs K'ari which is spelled Kaf-alef-resh-yod. These are not, and cannot be the same, they're spelled different. However, to someone who doesn't know better, they sound very similar, think There, Their, and They're. The dead sea scrolls appears to read "ka'aru, however..... that's because the yod at the end may appear to have a longer tail that makes it look like a vav. BUT, both words start with a Kaf, and neither start with the Kuf. Different letters that indicate how it should be translated.
Lastly, here's the text of Psalm 22:16, KJV.
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:......
k'ari = Like a lion, they're at my hands and feet.
Ka'aru = they pierced my hands and my feet.
Looking at Psalm 22:13, we see another reference to a lion. 22:12 speaks of bulls. 22:16 speaks to dogs encompassing him. The reference back to a lion is completely contextual. There are also not all the "prophesies" about Jesus in the Tanakh like you imply. I was once a leader of a messianic congregation in Alaska. I sought to teach a class called "Countering the Counter Missionaries". It was a class to teach things like this. However, every point I had, there was a much more valid counterpoint. I also don't think Tovia Singer is the best example of the Jewish side. You really want to learn more, look at Rabbi Michael Skobac. I can't remember the name of the rabbi I first found that I learned so much from, but he's since gone on to create a Yeshiva that teaches on this subject. I believe his name was Rabbi Uri, something. Either way. Just like Isaiah 53 talking about Jacob and it's an alleged messianic prophesy. In chapters proceeding and following chapter 53 it specifically says the servant is Israel. Yet all of a sudden it changes person in 53 and returns to Israel in chapter 54? You guys twist things to fit your narrative.
Doesn’t this still make the case for learning and reading Hebrew?
@TorahLife4Life
But isn't there a difference between DSS and Masoretic text in spelling?
“Others have claimed that the word ‘ד’ה “my hands” is “misspelled” because it has the final ה, (implying that the text is not to be trusted in matters of spelling). Apparently those who make this judgment are unaware that the Hebrew of the Qumran documents often utilize the final ה to mark final dipthongs (see Elisha Qimron, The Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Scholars Press, 1986).”
Tim Hegg, They Pierced My Hands and My Feet: Psalm 22:16 in the Hebrew Psalter
Tim Hegg of TorahResource writes,
“Though the writing on the scrap was faint, under magnification it was easy to see and decipher. The word clearly ended in a vav not a yod, and was therefore a 3rd person plural verb: “they dug” or “they pierced.” Here was evidence that the Lxx translators had not “fooled” with the text, but had faithfully translated the Hebrew original that was before them. Since this scrap is dated (in accordance with the style of letters used) to 50-68 CE, it is almost 1000 years earlier than the Masoretic text, and shows that in at least one of the earliest Hebrew traditions of Psalm 22, the word is not “like a lion” but “they dug” or “pierced.”
Tim Hegg, They Pierced My Hands and My Feet: Psalm 22:16 in the Hebrew Psalter
@@nashashbel6922 1. who wrote the scrap? So you are saying all the Jews in all generations corrupted the text? If so, why can't Christians also?
2. Besides, in the scrap there is an extra Hay turning "my hands" to "her hands".
3. There is no word "כארו" which is an obvious spelling mistake. Learn Hebrew.
@@potato21012 lol!
The extra He is already explained .
Ok may you need to tell those scribes who wrote it to learn hebrew , because they wrote something that is grammatically incorrect , ridiculous , something that duzn even exist, they don't know Hebrew right!
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, reveals that the minority readings of כארו (ka’aru) and כרו (karu) are both present within the Masoretic textual family.
“pc Mss Edd כארוּ, 2 Mss Edd כָּרוּ”
Anyway ,
Think that the reading " כארי" was absent in the original based on the parallism found in
Ps 22:12-13 [ 13-14] Ps 22:21
Ps 22:16 [17] Ps 22:20 [ 21]
David compared his enemies attack as of Bulls , Lion , Dogs in his complaints.
Interestingly he repeated the same animals in his Supplications , in a reversed way , a sort of " Chiasm".
Each animal finds its mate in the parallism !
In v12-13 [ 13-14 ] it has :
- Bulls
- Lion
in v21 it repeats them in a reversed way :
- Lion
- Wild oxen
in v16 [ 17 ] according to the Masoretic reading it has :
- Dogs
- Lion
in v20 [ 21] , we are expecting that both animals are mentioned in a reversed way like the other one above , surprisingly the" Lion " isn't mentioned but only Dog . instead of Lion it has SWORD :
- Sword ( Lion is expected to be mentioned in here if it would have been mentioned in the complaint)
- Dog.
Each animal has its couple :
Bulls wild oxen
Lion Lion
Lion < => Sword ???? ( Problem)
Dogs Dog.
However if we put :
They perforated Sword.
That works!
@@nashashbel6922 What you are saying is wrong. It does not work. I sat down on the psalm today and wrote a five page article showing how to really understand the parallel. I can share it. it's in Hebrew though.
But anyhow, saying the Jewish Rabbis did not know Hebrew is just plain stupis and not correct.
And what Mesoretic text renders a word which has no meaning?!
Besides that, why render a more difficult option all because it fits with the false Messiah who anyhow is contradicted by passages all over the Bible?!
@@potato21012 David repeats those animals in a reversed way. Every animal has its mate !
Complaints vs requests.
The Lion has never been there. Lool
Why your Rabbis then preserved this ridiculous word? 😂😂
Dr. Solberg I will be up front about who I am; a traditional Jew who believes in the One and only G-d Who watches over every intimate nuance of His Creation, over the entirety of Heaven and the Earth, every galaxy, planet and quark. Our Father fashioned our hearts and knows our every motivation, if we are being sincere and responsible, or disingenuous and deceptive. I commend your for your sincere efforts, and I don't believe you meant to deceive your audience, but the Orthodox Jewish Bible you cite as proof that "even Jewish translators who know the Hebrew language make mention of the translation ka'aru/they pierced," is published by Artists for Israel International. They published Philip Goble's 2002 translation which uses Yiddish and Hasidic language and culture to promote the "MESSIANIC Bible." Messianic Judaism, (for those who may be unaware), is a branch of Christianity which seeks to proselytize Jews, to lure them away from our Sinaic traditions, yet you gave the impression that 'that translation has traditional/orthodox roots.' THE TRUTH IS THERE IS NO WORD KA'ARU (chaf/alef/reish/vuv) which differs from KA'ARI (like a lion) by a single letter vuv (versus yud - btw it's yud, not yod). You didn't post the hebrew visually in your video, you used English phonetics.... Respectfully,, you need to demonstrate more actual research in your argument.
Thank you, Sholom. I appreciate your feedback on the video.
Respectfully, I would caution that defining Messianic Judaism as "a branch of Christianity which seeks to proselytize Jews" is quite misleading. Messianic Jews are, first and foremost, ethnic Jews who have come to faith in Yeshua as their Lord and Messiah. I spent a week among a couple thousand Messianic Jews last summer at the Messiah conference and it was beautiful! Do they want to share the Good News about Jesus with their Jewish brothers and sisters? Of course! All Christians do.
FYI My point in citing a couple of Messianic Jewish translations in this video was to demonstrate that even those translations acknowledge an issue with Ps 22:16. In other words, it isn't some dark, hidden secret. There is an open debate about the source text. But as I concluded in the video, whichever way one prefers to translate it, it does not change the meaning of the passage.
Shalom!
Rob
Thanks for your response. Their title "Orthodox Jewish Bible" is a stumbling block before people who would not know better. If, as you say, they are "enthnically" identified Jews, they might better title their translation "Ethnic Jewish Bible." My claim against their translation and how you describe it is not coming from my opinion, it based on language. If you don't have access to the Hebrew language look it up in Google translate.
@@sholompraver4348Shalom Sholom! As a Messianic ethnic Jew, I find the title 'Orthodox Jewish Bible' misleading, also. I wish they would have called it the Messianic Jewish Bible, but nobody asked me. It is awkward reading, too. "In the beginning, Elohim created hashomayim and haaretz." This is like running while wearing one ice skate and one golf shoe. Oy vey!
@@dancingzolins6782 I wish you great blessing on your journey, keeping G-d's Will on your heart: שמע ישראל יי אלהינו יי אחד, allowing it to enter sweetly into your spirit. G-d Bless.
I'm surprised Doctor Solberg that you didn't bring up the manuscript find at Qumram of psalms22 that reads like a lion
What’s interesting about the Dead Sea MSSs is that there is a one letter difference between the two, and the 4Q88 manuscript does not contain the letter which would distinguish between them. And Scroll Nahal Hever says “they pierced.” -RLS
I have been waiting for someone to take on Rabbi Toviah!
To bad he failed!
Curious why you skipped verse 26: "26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the LORD will praise Him. May your hearts live forever!" Why do we still have malnourished people around the globe and famines? Plus, not all nations bow down to Jehovah, as verse 27 implies: "all families of the nations will bow down before him."
that is no Instant noodle...it is a PROCESS according to Psalm 110....the Christ will sit at the right hand FIRST...and then The Father will convert the Gentiles according to process and degree... the Complete Fulfillment is the SEcond coming...
@@krishyyfan5153 There is no "second coming" by the Messiah, per Judaism, and Jesus cannot be the Messiah for many reasons and scriptures. I suggest you read the article, "The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims" (Jews For Judaism)
@@wownewstome6123 stop your nonsense... the Midrash interpreted Psalm 110 as the Messiah... the Targum interpreted Psalm 110 as Sitting and Waiting... 🙄
@@krishyyfan5153 Please cite a source so that I, and others, can verify your claim regarding the Midrash.
@@wownewstome6123 Midrash Tehillim 18:29... Psalm 110:1 is a period of SITTING by the MEssiah...
Your explanation is wrong.
The word like a lion in hebrew: ka-ari כארי
They pierce or rather dig or mine (mining) in hebrew is karu כרו (not ka-aru)
Notice that there are two differences in the hebrew:
There is no "א" in כרו !!!!
And it is pronounced karu, not ka-aru
And the last letter as you mentioned.
These are two completely different words. Take it to heart.
Thanks, Paz. And if the original word is _ka-ari_ (like a lion), how does that change the messianic nature of the verse? ~Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots that verse is not messianic. Nor is this chapter in general. It is simply king David's plea to god for mercy and praises to god. You would say that verse 2 is a contridiction to that, but in this verse too the hebrew is somewhat different than the english translation. The hebrew says "my god why did you leave me" (which is a temporary term that can end at any time) not "forsaken" (which is to completely abandon). Although close, they are not similar.
@@TheBiblicalRoots One more thing about psalm 22 verse 2: if king David would have wanted to say "forsaken me" the hebrew for that is "זנחתני" zanachtani - as in psalm 43, 2 as is in the hebrew bible, which in the english translated bible is "rejected me", (which in hebrew is dachit oti 🤨). See how many differences there are ??
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️ Indeed the word in the Nahal Hever scroll is written with an א and it goes to show that the scribe meant to write the word ka'ari כארי (like a lion) and not karu כרו (dig) since that word has no א in it, no shape or form and cannot because of it root כ.ר.ה. the scribe simply elongated the י slightly by mistake, so it looks like a vav ו, but the fact that the א is there makes it certain that his intention was to write כארי - like a lion !!!!
Sorry, but Tovia is actually correct as the word mentioned in that psalm has an aleph between the caf and the resh and can thus ONLY mean "like a lion". While Strong´s Concordance (3738) conveniently conflates it with the word for "to dig", which has NO aleph between the caf and the resh, just so you know, alephs are NOT added randomly. Also, the sources you mention as Jewish, as elsewhere remarked, are NOT. I grew up entertaining the idea that J could have been the C, until i came across Tovia. See Jeremiah 16:19.
Hello
it doesn't need to say pierced, the verb is to make open by violent action, like a lion biting with its teeth, It pierces with it's teeth.
I have never heard of anyone casting lots for David's clothing. Plz show me where this happened to David in the Tanakh ?
This scripture was fulfilled by the Roman soldiers at the crucifixion.
Also notice the mockery and scorn of the passersby's in the Psalm, verse 8. 'All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me.'
'And kneeling before him they mocked him saying , "Hail King of the Jews!" Matt 27v29
Exactly what happened to Jesus .
This is a public event, not a private one.
This never happened to David.
The one being described is being slaughtered to the point of actual death.
King David died of old age at 70. The only malady the Bible mentions regarding David in his old age is the inability to stay warm(1Kings 1:1).
The Bible says he “slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David” (1 Kings 2:10).
He can read the Hebrew original oldest text and it says like a lion.
I am perfectly fine with the reading "like a lion." But it doesn't change messianic meaning of the verse. Either way, the verse speaks to the specific future suffering of Yeshua. Blessings, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots What you mean to say, is no motter what is really meant to say you will explain it about Jesus. I can do that about anything, we can always make things up and connect things. That is the deffinition of a conspiracy theory.
@@potato21012 the Targum of Psalm 22 understood this as Biting of Hands and Feet..
"a gathering of evildoers has hemmed me in, biting my hands and feet like a lion." - Targum, Psalm 22:16-17
When a Sharp teeth BITES, the sharp teeth Digs in your flesh or pierces your flesh... 🙄
You have made clear the biased speech and maybe malice in the brother interpretation.
Please read (Psalms 22:21) which contains the answer to your question.
Please listen to Rabbi Tovia Singer and return to the truth of Tanakh.
what do you think about the take that Psalm 22 was not initially intended as prophetic just a well known passage for suffering persecuted Jews (reminding them that God will be with them and vindicate them even if they feel forsaken) and the person who wrote the Gospel of Mark used his description of the crucifixion it as a literary callback?
Having Jesus and the gentiles around him enact the events of the Psalm, the author made an allusion to known scripture, making Jesus's death resemble the already accepted sentiment of God vindicating you while the authorities persecute you.
Mark, the first person to introduce this Psalm into the narrative, already had a lot of literary devices in his Gospel, so it makes sense to add this one to the list. And citations of parallels from other Gospels don't show that it was more than a Markan literary creation, because Matthew and Luke definitely had Mark open while they were writing, and the author of John had at least a little familiarity with the Gospel of Mark, meaning that he could've been aware of the Psalm reference and kept it going in a few pieces of his narrative...he could've even just heard about it and thought it really happened (from one of his sources of information) and then read the Psalm before constructing his resurrection narrative, to add a reference to his narrative, so his readers would recognize it in the Psalm and read it to get a further message of what it means for Jesus to be killed.
If there's no external evidence that this Psalm was originally read as prophecy, and instead just sacred text reminding Jews that God is with them through persecution, then the "literary device" explanation is more probable than the "these events happened like this in fulfillment of prophecy" explanation.
Hey, Greyz174. Thanks for weighing in! I understand the theory you're suggesting. However because I believe the NT is the inspired Word of God, I don't subscribe to that theory. Psalm 22 is referenced in more than just the gospels. It's also referred to in Philippians, Hebrews, Revelation, 2 Timothy, and Romans.
I am open to the possibility that the author of Psalm 22 did not have prophetic or messianic intentions. However, the Holy Spirit inspired the author in such a way that it was revealed, in the end, to be prophetic of the messiah.
Shalom,
Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots Hi Rob, Thanks for responding. Would you be open to sharing chapter/verse for where all of these references are in the Epistles and Revelation? Would be happy to look into them.
@@TheBiblicalRoots You have a big problem Prof. You beleive in the Bible and in the NT as God's word, yet Jews only beleive in the original Bible and not the NT so you can't prove the validity of the NT from itself, that is circular logic. Besides, if the NT is true the old Bible is a big hoax with many lies in the name of God because the NT contradicts many passages in it.
Rashi from the 11th century has like a lion.
Tell us......was David crucified, because he wrote the Psalm????
Bravo!
Did David's enemies rip up his garments and cast lots for his cloak? We never read of that happening to David.
However Jesus merely quoted the first few words of Psalm 22, he did this in order to point those who knew and loved him( standing at the foot of his cross) to Psalm 22. So like as David suffered all those things even so he was also suffer them now.
Do you think David is speaking literally here, or symbolically, did lions actually bit his hands and feet? I believe he is using language to express his inner feelings when his enemies closed in on him, Jesus uses the same words to describe his inneer feelings as well, yet Jesus actually suffered in reality the piercing of his hands and feet, his garments were taken from him and distributed among the soldiers, he experenced intense weakness and thirst as he hung on the cross, so what better words could he point to, too describe his sufferings.
Except the word Ka'aru doesn't exist anywhere in the bible. There is no other location where this word can be found. Likely, the scribe made an error, as lions are a recurring theme in that chapter, which would more than likely mean that ari or Ka'ari was the intended word.
Very good point.
Interesting point, D! Thanks. Do you believe that changes the meaning of the verse?
Rob
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️
Transforming kaari (כָּאֲרִי) into kaaru (כָּאֲרוּ) by changing the letters kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), yod (י), which means “like a lion,” into kaf (כּ), alef (א), raish (ר), vav (ו) does not create the Hebrew word for “pierced,” In fact, kaaru doesn’t mean anything. In other words, this word kaaru does not exist in the Hebrew language; it’s little more than Semitic gibberish.
In order to concoct a word that resembles kaaru, you would not only have to change the letter yod into a vav, but the letter alef would have to be removed altogether. This alteration would create the three-letter word karu (כָּרוּ),spelled kaf, raish, vav. Karu, however, does not mean “pierced” either. It means to “excavate” or “dig.”
As mentioned, the words used in Tanach for “pierce” or “stab” are daqar or ratza, never karu, which does not have the connotation of “piercing” - as in puncturing flesh.
For example, the King James Version renders אָזְנַיִם, כָּרִיתָ לִּי in Psalm 40:7 (verse 6 in a Christian Bible) metaphorically as “mine ears hast thou opened.” The Hebrew word כָּרִיתָ contains the same root as the word כארו (without the א aleph) that Christians claim is in Psalm 22:17, and it literally means “ears you have dug for me.”
The message contained in Psalm 40:7 is clearly conveyed by its context. By digging or excavating his ear, the Psalmist is able to hear and perceive what God did and didn’t desire. If karah could be translated as “pierce,” this would mean that the Psalmist is piercing or stabbing his ears to hear God more clearly! The word כרו means to “open” or “excavate,” not rip through flesh.
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️
Written by Uri Yosef, Psalms 22 - "Nailing" An Alleged Crucifixion Scenario Lesson notes
fragments containing Psalms 22:17[16] were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS). In the first fragment, which was found at Qumran (4QPs-f; known as the Qumran MS, the word in question is not preserved.
In the second fragment, found at Nahal Hever (HHev/Se 4 (Ps); known as the Bar Kochba MS, the word is preserved.
The fragment HHev/Se 4 (Ps) shows the Hebrew letters (kaf), (aleph), (resh), and what appears to be a somewhat elongated letter (yod), which some perceive to be the letter (vav).[3] Thus, the reading of this word would be either (ka'ari) or (ka'aru), respectively.
Although the latter of these two renditions of the term has been the focus of much controversy and discussion, it is a fact that no root verb exists which contains the letter (aleph) in it, conjugated in this fashion (3rd-person, plural masculine gender, past tense), with the meaning of they pierced, as rendered in most Christian translations.
Without the letter (aleph), and using, for the moment, the argument that the last letter [the elongated (yod)] is a (vav), the word would be (karu), for which the Hebrew root verb is (karah), [to] dig [in dirt], such as digging a ditch (e.g., Ps 57:7). In other words, (karu) has the meaning [they] dug [in dirt]. This verb is never used in the context of piercing, either literally or metaphorically, in any of its 15 applications in the Hebrew Bible.
What could cause such a variation between the two terms (ka'ari) and (ka'aru), i.e., with an elongated letter (yod) that resembles the letter (vav)? Since the word (ka'aru) does not exist in the Hebrew language, the most plausible explanation is that such discrepancy is simply a case of scribal variation (or error).
The word in Psalm 22 is ka'ari (lion) not karu (which means "to dig" BTW, as in digging a ditch, not pierce).
@Comment Warrior the Jesus Christ follower. ☦️ ✝️
Further, the next word after ka'ari is Yadayah, which translates as "her hands"
So was jesus a woman , whose hands you assert were pierced, or did the scribe make a scribal error?
Go learn Hebrew before you lecture on a language, for which you don't even know the Aleph Bet.
An amazing rebuttal.
You have such patience with this Rabi who tries to annihilate the Word of God. God our Lord Jesus iswith us, let us walk with HIM.
Rabbi Singer has such patience with this Missionair who tries to annihilate the Word of God. God our Lord הוי"ה ברוך הוא is with us, let us walk with HIM
You do not disclose that the two Bibles you use to give support, from a Jewish perspective, the accuracy of the translation are both messianic (ie, Christian) sources. Extremely dishonest or extremely lazy.
Hello, Cap'n!
Your logical fallacy is: *genetic.* You judged something as either good or bad on the basis of where it comes from, or from whom it came. This fallacy avoids the argument by shifting focus onto something's or someone's origins. It's similar to an ad hominem fallacy in that it leverages existing negative perceptions to make someone's argument look bad, without actually presenting a case for why the argument itself lacks merit. See: yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic
Shalom,
Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots The same fallacy in your very argument in the video. Captain here only pointed out the fallacy in bringing these interpretations as Jewish ones, which they are not.
Your way of showing love to our Jewish brothers, helping them understand their own language issues. Be glad my handwriting isn’t needed for important writings!
The Masoretic text is confirmed by the DSS scrolls.
Please get your content on Gab!
Same with any non English language. Depends on the decretals or the pointing lower or higher vowels. Same with the Koran with its Decretals additions. So thats the problem with the English language, not best language. Middle eastern languages originally had no vowels ,so the Masoretic texts introduced the vowel pointing for the reading or the vocal reading of scripture in the synaques.
Hello Rabbi Tovia. I've recently started reading the pistis sophia and had an apiphany. Please give me some answer as it's actually busted everything I thought I knew. Anyway as I was listening to the beginning I realise that the sophia asking "God" for help is the alms of pistis sophia and is why its called ps-alms as in pistis sophias alms or prayers. As for the text its self its absolutly brilliant and has awakened something Inside me that I just can't ignore. Let's get back to the pistis sophia as it's 100% a missing part of the truth of the Bible.
Good work
I think the Rabbi made his comment based on his argument that Christianity is a false religion. It might seem he is making an argument on something so small, when in reality he sees the bigger picture. That was just one example of the many.