A World of Gothic Horror: The Problem With Modern Batman Stories
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- In today's video, we are going to look at the past thirty years of Batman's history, and see how things have changed gradually since then. From the days of The Dark Knight Returns, Arkham Asylum, and The Killing Joke, to Grant Morrison's run in 2006 and Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo's run with the New 52. All the way to Tom King's recent stories with Batman Rebirth, I hope you like it because this one is special to me. Let me know what you think, and thanks for watching!
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Hey everybody! Thank you so much for watching, this one is pretty special to me, and has a lot of things that I have been feeling for a while now in it. I had meant for it to be one of my shorter ten or so minute videos, but as you can see I had a bit more to say than I thought I did. I hoped you liked it, and I am really curious to see how everybody else feels about it because this one is kind of subjective I think. Thank you so much for the support, and I will see you next time.
I prefer when Batman is a tragic hero and dark character just like how I agree Gotham needs to be grim and gothic. It's literally in the name!
Amazing
Thanks!
Yeah but this joker movie is about to show you the horrors of Gotham. What Gotham (society) has made the Joker. Im telling you joaquin pheonix joker is gonna be a masterpiece.
Could you do a video on your favorite DC Elseworld story or the Vertigo series Fables? I think they would be really up your alley.
I found an Elseworld mini series called Robin 3000. Someone from my church gave me a bunch of comics that belonged to his younger brother. Most of them were comics from the late 1970's to the 1990's. I actually have some of the titles that you mentioned in the video. Batman had a crossover with Predator in the late 80's early 90's.
If Batman worked during the day, he’d end up with a tan line where his cowl opens up and everyone will know who he is
SILENCE, YOU didnt nEed to sayThAt
Sunblock?
@@trivialmayhem400 Robin, QUICK, hand me my BAT BLOCK!
Only if he was the bat in the daytime.
Matt Styner NO SHIT
"Behold Supergirl, everything the light touches is ours to protect."
"But what about that shadowy part?"
"That's Gotham, we don't go there."
"Why not?"
"Batman lives there. He has a tablespoon of kryptonite, a pocket lighter and the creative genius to somehow make that work."
I often get the impression that other superheroes could clean up the situation in Gotham way faster, and make it as nice as Metropolis or Central City. Batman just tells them to go away because of his pride.
@@jiado6893 i mean maybe yeah like superman and the other leagues but i think the reason why they don't is that they've got their own villains to fight but i don't know :/
@@jiado6893 i mean maybe yeah like superman and the other leagues but i think the reason why they don't is that they've got their own villains to fight but i don't know :/
@@jiado6893 Gotham has a lot of white collar criminals. The other super heroes will come, clean the streets in one night and in the next week new crime lord would be fighting other new crime lords to control the streets while the white collar criminals who commands them stay safe and comfy on their mansions. Let´s say that the only way to cleaned it up totally is leveling the whole city and start from scratch. Batman works with Gordon to take on targets specially hard to get. And of course, the super villains.
@@Lex60 I just don't believe any of the League would sit by while Gotham had a nuke hidden inside it, or had to deal with a mutation plague of Man-Bats.
“If you cannot see this version of Batman comforting a child who just lost something precious, that’s not Batman it’s the punisher in a funny hat”
-Red from OSP
perfect description lol
Omg wooow woooow!!! Thank you for that line
@ChillyCloth The ending to that movie captured exactly what so many modern interpretations missed
@Rambunctious Dreambirde how is that putting the character in a box it’s the literal main outline of his character. He’s is dark and brooding but wants to help people.
@@plugshirt1762 yep like he can be dark but also has empathy even if he struggles to show it
I still think the Animated Series did it best: Take the brooding art deco look of Gotham and ditch the grimdark hopelessness and gratuitous killing. If Silver Age goofiness and Adam West are one end of the dial and Frank Miller is the other, the Animated Series is precisely in the center; the happy medium.
which is exactly why the 1970's and early 1980's are the best era for Batman. Hell, BTAS is largely based on and inspired by 1970's stories.
BTAS excels on so many levels I actively pity every adaptation that follows; the overall DCAU is almost perfect, especially the wrap-up at the end of Justice League. So much great casting, too; everyone talks about Hamill and Conroy, but Tim Daly is a great Superman, Clancy Brown is the perfect Lex Luthor, and the choices going even further - like Jeffrey Combs as the Question? So damn good. And it all feels cohesive for the most part; JL looks like it's made with the same design sensibilities as BTAS, just the animation is cleaner.
The DCAU also perfectly balances the issue of having Batman operate in the League, playing up his intelligence and not being afraid to have him loose to villains - or put the spotlight on lesser characters; by contrast, his presence in the Justice League in the comics feels more about his popularity as a character than any real use for him.
@@MrStath1986 young justice has has followed the tough act of the dcau pretty well and they have a 4th season in the works as well.
@@CartoonManWhoo Yeah, I think the Animated Series is probably most similar to the Batman of the 70's and the 80's. Obviously, the 70's and Denny O'Neil have a major influence, but the works of guys like Len Wein, Gerry Conway, Mike W. Barr and others also had a big influence I think. In fact, those guys even wrote episodes of the series (as did O'Neil).
I wouldn’t say the 90’s Batman books were grimdark and hopeless, they were pretty good for the most part (especially since Dennis O’Neil was the chief editor of BatFamily titles)
The Mad Hatter is seriously underused and he s a great, creepy character.
Absolutely. There’s so many ways that he could be very upsetting, the idea that he takes a person and turns them into something else is an idea that is super creepy that has almost always been glossed over with him. You could easily do an amazing horror story staring him, as well as most of the under used villains. I still would love an adult Batman book that was aimed at a horror audience, I think it would sell crazy well.
DC totally misses the cult leader/dictator possibilities with the Hatter! He should also stalk celebrities, since he started with a crush on a coworker in Batman the Animated Series. Same with Poison Ivy! She controls plants and minds, but isn't a drug kingpin, dictator or cult leader, either! She could have a drug cartel, groupies and a vertical farm/megachurch! I'd also put her in a ghillie suit, floral sarong and flower in her hair or club camo catsuit and ivy and floral tattoos all over her.
There was a miniseries called Joker's Asylum that featured a Mad Hatter story that could've been a story from a 70's horror comic. If you've never read it, I highly suggest it!
I liked how Hatter was implemented in the Gotham tv series. The idea of him being a very skilled hypnotist that doesn't need mind control tech in order to do his work makes him a lot more imposing and difficult to contain.
@@darlalathan6143 You know, come to think of it, in some of the outside media, they did that with Bane. In Arkham Origins, his followers look to him as a quasi religious leaders. Similarly, in the Dark Knight Rises, his followers would gladly die for his goals as instructed; he even gets a big part of the city worked up in his eloquent speeches in the city. I guess an unstoppable, intelligent beast like Bane would be able to be very charismatic
It’s sad when the first Lego Batman game feels more like a authentic Batman experience than recent comics
Why is this so true?
@@hailpickens2454 because they are insanely good
@@justinslaughter8933 PREACH!! my guyy
@@UN_bear_ABL3 Preach what
@@justinslaughter8933 how incredibly good and authentic the lego batman movie is
"Why would anybody want to live in Gotham?"
They don't. And that's the entire point.
There's three types of people in Gotham:
The most majority are people who don't have any option. They are poor and have no hopes of getting out of the city.
The next group are the criminals who can only exist in a place where there's no many helpless people to exploit. This group is occupied by organized crime, costumed villains, and the corrupt police.
And the final, smallest group, is made up of those who want to save the city. This is occupied almost exclusively by Batman and Commissioner Gordon.
I don’t think this is realistic. There’s a population of ten million.
And also the rich elites who benefit from the exploitation
Addison Roberts: It's not supposed to be realistic. Bartan is a fantasy comic book, with insane villains (many of them with suoerpowers) battling a man in a Halloween costume. Gotham is a fantastical version of NYC during the great depression.
@laz kar it feels like a real city because of its characterisation and not its logistics
Addison Roberts And yet 7-9 million people lived in NYC both during Depression and 1970s crime wave. And still do in Detroit.
When was the last time the Joker actually told a JOKE, huh? He's been written as sooo pure E-Vil, that the whole character has been lost.
' ah ha ha ha he he ha ha and I thought my jokes were bad '' LOL!!!!! You are right! ' the killing joke" I think? and the joke was a good one!!!!!!
Maybe back in the 90s. Denny O'Neil at the editor helm gave the writing team a fantastic guide book that kept Batman and his rogues balanced.
Jack Nicholson’s joker
Heath Ledger’s Joker imo had the perfect balance between twisted sense of humor and just twisted
You should listen to “Harley Quinn: Sound Mind” it’s a theatrical podcast production with Christina Ricci. The joker in that is sooo funny. He actually made me laugh. I highly recommend it.
I hate the fact that Scarecrow is so criminally underused. Even when he has the chance to shine, he gets overshadowed by the Joker. Such a pity.
Looking at you Arkham Knight...
The worst part is, Joker overshadowed him because they decided to take a literal approach to Batman and Joker's relationship and him fearing that he'll turn to him, not just lose control but literally turn into him.
Hush was also wasted and relegated to a brief side mission. It's funny because I think if Paul Dini, who was absent from the 3rd game, returned to write he would've handled the story so much better. Because while he didn't create Hush, he wrote his defining story in Heart of Hush where he established the idea of Tommy altering his face to look like Bruce and also wrote Scarecrow comics in the past meaning he could've committed to the idea of making Scarecrow and Hush the main villains.
@@themadtitan7603 agreed. Dini set up some story threads that needed to be finished by him. Both Scarecrow and Hush had big potential… both were wasted in Knight. Someday we’ll see them shining in a prominent role, I sure hope.
@@sr.estevao3859 Hopefully, especially Scarecrow who never seemed like he was ever utilized to his full potential since his creation really. I also hope we one day get a rough set of what Paul Dini's plans for a 3rd Arkham game where,
"Batman is getting fat"
*shows a picture of batman with abs*
By comic book standards, that IS fat. In comics any woman who doesn't have visible ribs and any guy who has only mildly-defined abs are as close to unattractive as artists can bring themselves to depict.
to be fair dark knight returns batman is a lot more stocky and stout in stature, kind of rocking a strong fat vibe like yeah he'd kick your ass but not the slim and agile (implying) toned muscle you usually get
@@morganqorishchi8181 comic book artists not only hold very high body standards, but all seem to be very horny for said characters
@@quasarulas3968 that was the point nruce was old and out of shape
@@Rudolphgaylord As they should.
There are things I both strongly agree with and disagree with you here on. In my view, Batman doesn't only need to be about a dark, brooding, solitary figure, waging an endless, futile war against twisted reflections of himself in a horror story. Is this my favorite interpretation of the character? Yeah, it's pretty close. Scott Snyder's run is also a big favorite of mine as well. But I don't think it needs to be the only version, even in the comics. When you get to the core of Batman's character, he is a man who watched his parents die and wants to ensure what happened to them, never happens to them ever again. So no one has to go what he went through. So long as a story stays true to that vision, it's Batman. That's why the tv show Batman: Brave and the Bold, is as true to Batman as The Dark Knight Returns.
Brave and the Bold isn't a gothic horror story at all, but it is no less true to Batman as a character and his world. This is why I don't really have a problem with Grant Morrison wanting to show Batman making Gotham a better place as a whole, not just on a small scale. Or the ideal that Batman represents can inspire people all around the world to be like him. I also don't have a problem with the Bat-family, because they show the natural evolution of his character. To someone who was afraid of getting close to anyone because he lost the two most important people in his life and didn't want to be hurt again. To someone willing to open again emotionally to people, and rebuild the family he lost. Are there too many incidental ones that creators make and never bothering fleshing out and then get the thrown to the wayside? Like Harper, Duke, Batwing, etc. Yeah, but the core idea of them is extremely important to Batman. And the ones like Dick, Jason, Barb, Tim, Damian, Steph, Cass, Batwoman, are actually well-developed characters when done right.
I'm not a fan of Tom King's run either. But not because it isn't a Gothic horror story. But because his portrayal of Batman comes off as a suicidal, sociopathic manchild, who entirely emotionally dependant on a single woman for any sanity or happiness despite having a huge family he loves and cares about and make him happy. Who is reckless and unintelligent, rarely using his detective skills unless the story needs him to be. And lacks really any heroic or noble traits, who is usually difficult to root for or be invested in because he's beating his friends and allies and acting like a crazy person. And is so easily broken despite having been through so much already. The pacing also really slow and boring, with not much happening and has serve tonal issues. King wants to be the next Alan Moore but lacks the understanding of the characters he writes to do the deconstructions Moore did with Watchman. Honestly, after King's run I want something more fun and lighthearted. Where Batman is a noble hero, who while being deeply flawed, cares about the people closest to him again.
One big thing I agree with you on the lack of use of Batman's rogue's gallery. And how characters like Scarecrow, Poison Ivy, Mr. Freeze, and others often feel like set pieces or props, rather than characters who have their own major storylines. I've had less a of a problem with Riddler and Two-Face as of late. Two-Face has had major stories in Tomasi's Batman and Robin run, Snyder's All-Star Batman, and one in Detective recently. Riddler got ones in Zero Year and King's run (even if I really don't like that story) But yeah creators don't do enough with them. Despite all the issues, I don't really have a problem with where Batman is right now. Because there are so many other creators doing the Batman I love. I like Tomasi's current Detective run, Batman: White Knight series, Batman: The Man Who Laughs series, Batman: Last Knight on Earth just came out. There's more than enough to hold me over until King leaves.
Sorry, this is long, just a lot to say on these things cause I love Batman so much.
Your 2nd paragraph is why I guess people think "The Lego Batman" is one of his best portrayals in media and gets the character right.
Hey! Sorry for the late reply I have been out of the house for a while and wanted to wait till I got back to my computer to respond. I really like a few different lighthearted Batman media portrayals, but I really prefer the darker stuff with the character. I was conflicted on how to structure this video, I was very much inspired to make it after Bruce hit Tim in issue 71. I had wanted to make a video for a while about Batman, but that pushed it for me. But at the same time, I didn't want to make a video that just boiled it down to Tom King = bad. I wanted to kind of talk about the other issues going on with the character which made me focus on the basics that I like the most and what I personally find the strongest with the character in his comic book form. I deeply love my dark Batman takes, but there are some lighter Batman related works that I do like. Like I love JL8 and Lego Batman, I think both of those are super clever things. Although I heard that the guy who makes JL8 is problematic, but I haven't looked into it at all so I have no clue if there is any fact in that or not.
I would be down for a smaller Bat family, I think that could be done a lot better than some of the current stuff. Like I am sometimes down with Robins being in stories, such as Dark Victory for instance. I think Robin is one of the strongest aspects that that book has besides its art and use of villains. But overall I don't like how many members there currently is at all, I think the most true Batman is the solitary one, which is the one that I love to see most in the main book. But having people close to him can be done well for sure! I will always love Alfred haha.
Thank you for watching and for your detailed response, it means a lot to me!
@@crod9905 I don't think they'd be wrong for having that opinion. I think Lego Batman gets his character better than any live-action movie ever has to be frank. Which is frustrating to say considering it's a parody of him.
@@Batknight12 I think it's because the lego version has a personality. The live action versions are either dull and forgettable, or angry, brooding caricatures of Batman.
@@InPraiseofShadows Hey no problem. Sure I get where you're coming from. I prefer dark, horror Batman as well. I just wanted to say I don't think the lighter versions of him are any less valid. Batman isn't like, say, Berserk. Which is the singular vision of one person. A lighter version of Bersek wouldn't work. But Batman has been around for 80 years and been written by god knows how many people and reinterpreted so many ways. I think a core of who he is as a character is there, as I said, it just doesn't come from the tone of his stories. I think my preferred Bat-family would be Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and Barbara. With the other ones showing up rarely. I think once you start including more it tends to go a little overboard. Though the nice thing with Batman is he's so popular you can have a Bat-family book where they're all together or a book where he works alone.
Anyways, thank you for making this video. It's always nice to see someone passionate about the character.
I only half-agree. I want a world that's allowed to change and a Batman who is allowed to heal and work on himself, with a focus on his human adjustment and progress in the world. I really want a Gotham that can change over time, keeping the darkness and underlying horror while opening up the possibility for infrastructural improvement. I hate the idea that he and the city are bound to be stagnant and self-pitying, and would rather allow for some hope in the midst of the horror.
This
Exactly, hope still exists.
agree.
That's why I like self-contained stories outside of main continuity better, they are allowed to properly develop and conclude.
If the horror is broken up by periods of optimism, it makes the horror more impactful. Otherwise the Joker blowing up a school is just “oh, it’s Thursday already?”
"Joker fatigue is real" someone SAID IT
Yet the best Batman film in twenty years just featured him...
@@anonb4632 make ur own youtube video then
@@anonb4632 Not a 'Batman' movie, a movie with 'Batman' arkwardly showhorned in. The best Batman movie is 'The Dark Knight Rises' and the best Joker is still Heath Ledger (R.I.P.), Mark Hamill would also be a valid choice as the best.
Phoenix Joker is a nice interpretation but it has nothing to do with the Joker we know from the comic books. If this would be a 'Batman' movie we'd have to accept the Joker is like 40 years older than Batman. This guy will be geriatric when Batman is 30... I don't want to live in such a world ;)
@@bobbyb6053 Nothing to do with the comic books? That's probably why it's a better film, it lacks a repetitive formula.
Heath Ledger's Joker is overrated. I can't stand the lip smacking and his rationale isn't convincing. I prefer Nicholson tbh.
@@bobbyb6053 p.s. I agree with you on the age difference. But I still think this is the best DC film in nearly thirty years.
I always thought that Gotham was perfectly shown in the Tim Burton films and the Animated Series. I liked it because the city looks classy, and has that 1940s optimistic futurism to it, but is really horrible when you take a look at the streets. I like Gotham classy on the outside, but really filthy on the inside. Not too gross, bloody, and gory, but just an atmosphere that shows that Gotham is really deadly, but is hidden behind an almost utopian city structure. It's got an irony to it that I like. A city built with a design of hope for the future that is been relegated into a cesspool of crime and evil. And the last semi-optimist is a man who dresses like a Bat. I don't know. That's how I personally like Gotham city.
@Jack Fortuna Yeah, I agree. Besides the criminals, I would've never guessed that the Batman Beyond Gotham needed a hero like Batman even in it. It's so futuristically advanced in a shiny, undamaged sort of way. The streets of Gotham should be just as filthy as the villains that inhabit them.
Agreed. Loved Tim Burton's depiction of Gotham, and BTA's version of Gotham as well. I enjoyed Nolan's films, but always felt his Gotham was severely lacking in character, mood, and mystique.
It depends. I like that style too but only if the tone is more campy and larger- than-life. For a film like Joker, Gotham needed to be gross and polluted and gritty. If not, the story wouldn't have worked.
@@crod9905 I agree. That was Todd Phillips' vision. I wasn't really a big fan of Joker, but I respect his vision. I'm personally more of a fan of the more stylized Gotham. And apparently Matt Reeves is combining the more realistic Gotham with a more stylized Gotham, and I'm quite excited.
@@mkd58media Yeah, it didn't stand out. The Nolan movies could have just called it New York and I would've bought it. Gotham shouldn't be designed like a normal city. It should have it's own style, almost a character in a sense.
What made me love Batman? Adam West intoning: "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb!"
Me, too!
Best Batman film ever
I saw it as a kid and it's a genuinely fond memory.
You’re not kidding with the Joker Fatigue. 3 Jokers, Harley Quinn, Joker’s Daughter, The Batman Who Laughs, and those two clowns from doomsday clock.
Did DC make a blood pact to present the joker (or one of his many representatives) as consistently as the heroes with titles?
Haha yeah it’s kind of crazy how much of a presence he has had in the past decade of the books, I’ve loved some of them. But overall I hate it because it takes so much time away from other cool characters, and those cool appearances would have been even more impactful if had been gone awhile before they happened.
@@InPraiseofShadows That's very true. Sometimes, Joker's presence is justified. The Arkham games made it work because the focus of that narrative is the sick relationship between them, and there were also other characters who had an important presence, Snyder's run made it work just because of how beautifully sick and twisted it all was
@Rohan Clancy morrison is a hack
seriously, and outside Detective Comics & Batman & Robin -
when is the last time you see Riddler ( I guess Jokes and Riddles now) , Penquin or even Two-Face in the Main Batman book? it's always The Joker. always.
I can't remember the last time I read a Batman with Two-Face.
It's easy to write for Joker.
"It's not realistic!"
Detroit: I'm boutta ruin this whole man's career.
Detroit needs its own batman
Charles Châtenay for President 1900 or Superman would be better like I like Batman but I don’t want him and his crazy ass over here when I can have a boy scout god
@@grease317 Boy scout God will eventually go mad and create a fascist state in order to stop crime. Or worse, become a soundcloud rapper
@@unregisteredassaultbutterk1185 Or creating a fascist regime AND becoming a soundcloud rapper!
@@janhendrik1829 Injustice detroit
Those comics that are just 3D renders with a "comic" filter over them....make me super uncomfortable, like, they activate my flight instincts
It activates my fight instinct and I want to tear the book apart
I think a balance really needs to be established. He wasn't always a dark edgelord with no real man under the bat. Nor was he the rainbow of bad goofy story lines as he was in his early days.
I think it's why the original run of Batman the Animated series (I'm looking at you Kevin Conroy) is it showed the battles with Darkness he had, but he *was* struggling. He struggled with darkness, but also he's just generally a good person.
Trauma alone didn't make him.
I love your work. Keep these amazing videos coming.
Batman the animated series was a fantastic show, cartoon and series, I don't think there is a more perfect product singly focused on batman that captures him as perfectly as that series did.
That said, what's interesting is how in batman beyond, years on from the show, it shows a far more disgruntled, bitter Bruce Wayne who lost his softer side decades ago, and now only lives for what he sees as his mission.
However batman beyond exists as its own separate entity that's connected to BTAS but isn't vital to appreciate the original show
@@MrOrcshaman I kind of see them as different timelines? Either way, I love both. And I love the Static Shock crossover.
I agree, however I don't agree with everything he said. I mean, it's dc comics, batman exists within dc comics; so if metropolis looks like a modern city and coast city looks like a modern city, then if Gotham looked extremely different people would notice and take issue with it. It wouldn't make any sense. With major comics, characters evolve from era to era. You can always make an argument as to why you want this character to be exactly the way they were under one writer, but if they never changed and evolved, the public would get bored. For me personally, I wish dc would bring back "elseworld" and marvel would bring back "what if?", with that we can explore stories of characters written differently from different perspectives without having to mess with main Canon. Idk, like I said before, I agree with some stuff, but I find myself disagreeing with more
@@MrOrcshaman that’s always been my favorite version of Batman because he was a badass noir crime fighter, but he was still human. He still caught a cold, makes jokes, watches cartoons, and is able to empathize with others. It’s the perfect balance.
I found that Englehart got a great balance in how he writes Batman/Bruce.
“It is a mistake to fancy that horror is associated inextricably with darkness, silence, and solitude” H.P. Lovecraft
Lovecraft knows what's up.
Cold air.
@@shadowangel6359 mmmm dont know about that
@@shadowangel6359 Besdies racial issues
@@AC-gm6dr Yes.
Besides racial issues.
I think a big problem with batman and his rogues' gallery is that a lot of writers look at what made these characters special, namely being psychologically complex and morally gray and try to replicate that in the most shallow way possible, which results in everyone being a complete sociopath with no relatability what so ever.
For me what made the joker scary was that he was just an insane man, he was something that any of us could become if we had a series of bad day. He was relatable in that sense, now a days, he feels like an unnecessarily edgy character that is there simply because he brings the money in. Same thing with batman. He was always morally and psychologically complex, but no matter how low he fell, his core was good, or at the very least, his core was interesting. That's what makes characters like batman or Victor von doom interesting, they have interesting stuff going on beneath them. Being a sociopath with little to no redeeming qualities isn't interesting.
TAS, Joker, and even the new Pattinson film ground these characters with actual empathetic mental illnesses. It’s not the ailments themselves that drive these characters to desperation, but their abuse and torment, and that makes them all the more human. Chalking their characters up to just “lol they’re insane” is an insult both to the characters and to people living with these illnesses who engage with the media
@@umjammerlammy9993 2019's Joker is a offense to the character and has nothing to do with it aside from the name.
I disliked the need to explain Joker from the writers (The 3 Jokers for example).
True, he deserves an origin, but not a set one. Basically multiple choice, so that it feels close to being human yet also like it’s from another being.
@@footl0se As much as I admire Joaquin Phoenixs amazing performance in that movie, I'll have to agree with you. He doesn't feel like the joker in any way, he just feels like any psychopathic incel
@@omnipotentbanana1576 but a movie called Psychopathic Incel wouldn’t sell as many tickets
Bat-mite from Batman: The Brave And The Bold said it best:
Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitide of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation but it certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger crying out for mommy and daddy
That has to be one of my favorite quotes from any Batman media
@Felicia Mihanovich I’d say Morrison’s run is well done, it just was going for something different. It was aiming for an adventurous homage to Batman’s silver age. Just cause he didn’t personally like it doesn’t mean it wasn’t well executed
Besides those Easter bunnies looked really scary right!
@@Bolbi145 Bruce Timm: "....meh."
That is actually a very a historical take on Batman. Batman wasn't a tortured character until the 70s. In the 30s and 40s he was a pretty standard pulp hero.
Personally, I don't like the idea of Batman and Joker being this big Thing. Even disregarding the sexual/romantic undertones, which I'm not particularly fond of anyway, it gives such little room for the other villains in Batman's rogues gallery to have their own impact. I want to see more stories with Mr.Freeze, The Riddler, Two-Face, Penguin. And for goodness sake, I want Batman to be the world's greatest Detective again, instead of just being this plot-based mcguffin locator.
Years ago back in the 1990's, there was a Batman series where B, R, and Al left Gotham for close to two months to chase down some crime family. Poison Ivy moved into the green house when the men were gone. There was a housing staff cleaning & polishing the wood work, nothing bad happen cause Ivy was a good girl.
Also it was a behind the scene running gag where Ivy would just walk through Wayne Manor or stay in the green house. In one short series Ivy " dated " Bruce Wayne and she likes to visited Alfred's gardens. People tend to forget the tongue & cheek humor .
Cheek out the Knight Fall & Rise series. Bruce orders pizza and offers the delivery guy $50 to show him how to use the washer and drier cause his butler is out of town.
As for the greatest Detective again, I remember comics from the late 1970's where there was five to seven short stories in them. Batman had to solve crimes without the aid of wifi smart phone computers. In one story Bruce was out playing tennis at a high end country club and there was a murder in the bathroom,
if you looked at the waxed floor at the right angle you could see the boot prints and where the floor was scraped when a suit case was picked up. The short story was about Cold War Russian Corporate Espionage.
The reason I will always remember that story is, my grand parents didn't allow shoes in the house cause of foot prints, carpet wear and two women talking about " Divorce Alimony."
Two Face is a more nuanced and fleshed out character in the animated series
While I agree. Joker touches Batman on a way different level than any of the other characters. The Joker challenges Batman in such a way the others can't and he thrives because Batman can't kill him or even lock him up for too long. So, naturally the stories just leaned into this direction.
@@TallicaMan1986 not really. The joker only fills that role cause he was the first villain, correct me if i'm wrong. Had riddler been batman's first villain he'd have filled the Joker's role. Just make riddler an anarchist like the Joker, and have his riddles be a side thing just like Joker's jokes.
@@galarstar052 the thing is though. I think The Riddler is more "Rational"
There are two types of Batman:
1) Gritty lone man waging a war on evil itself.
2) Tragic man trying to rebuild a family in vain.
These don’t usually coexist. They can, but only with high skill and understanding of Bruce’s psyche
Robin: *puts a hand on Batman's shoulder to let him know he cares*
Batman: my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined
Angel With The Fiery Sword I love that reference
The episode of the New Batman Adventures where Bruce was feeling happy and wondering what the feeling was and when Tim said "It's called happiness" Bruce frowning and saying "Whatever it is I like it" was funny.
Batman's internal dialogue: Who is this imposter and where is the real Robin? ;) :P
The real Robin would know I'm not into that touchie feelie moments... XD
@@Xehanort10 his reply makes no sense to me, something like "i had forgotten what happiness is" would be better, because he was happy before, he just wasn't for a long time
38:37 In the comics Poison Ivy used to be a great character in her own right but now she mostly just shows up as Harley's bit on the side.
Or just evidence for conviction to hornyjail.
Yeah, DC always ignores PI's cult leader, terrorism, and drug dealer possibilities, lol!
I like seeing the two of them together but it needs to not be a Harley story only, I’d love to see content of the two of them BOTH being incredible
@@melz6126 Yeah not so much harley I think its time for other better villians to get the spotlight and attention like the Riddler hard to write but really good or two face. Well the whole main rouge gallery.
@@johnf.kennedy5904 I loved when Riddler and Penguin went legit in Batman: Detective Comics and Gotham City Sirens. It lead to more interesting character interactions, and made sense for their personal motivations.
“Miller was the primary reason that when you think of gotham city, you think this-“
**gets a Rainbow High commercial**
Grant Morrison: you know I like my comics realistic
Me: *stares awkwardly at my doom patrol omnibus books*
Lol
His run of DP is most of the time word salad, acid trip madness haha. Realistic my ass, and I love his run on them
He was joking with that.
Some artists stay the same throughout the years. Others change, not wanting to be trapped doing variations of the same damn thing. I think Mr. Morrison is the latter, usually for better but not this time.
David Bowie was a legend at reinventing himself. Tom Hanks was once the funny guy in Big. Steven King created a pseudonym, Richard Bachman, so he could explore new directions in horror.
Plus, Batman is possibly the most grounded major superhero, so some a greater measure of realism is in order. The Brotherhood of Dada would be really far from your typical Batman villains
@@jackalope2302 not really, high concept but Barman is no stranger to mystic stuff and superpowers.
I kinda like the idea that Gotham improves over time due to their efforts. Crime may not be stopped forever but that doesn’t mean Gotham can’t start to look more like the other heroes cities.
I don't like the idea of the gothic buildings being removed, make me think of gentrification, it takes away the history. Imagine if the city of New York declared they would demolish and replace the Chrysler building because it was old and didn't fit the 'modern landscape'
@@michaelwalsh9616 You mean, Gotham hasn't gentrified, all this time?? Like all real cities do?? LOL!
I don't know. Gotham in itself is a core "character". Change it too much and that character is no more.
@@Casshio he even made a point, by showing how similar it looked cities like metropolis and star
If anything, I approve of like... New buildings built out from old ones, like fungus on fallen trees.
The Robert Pattinson batman movie looks like it'll be pretty dark, gothic, horror. Can't wait
@@TheYCS08 I've been watching the DC cartoon universe movies or whatever it's called. They r actually pretty good. Soo much better than the live action of dc and marvel movies
I just want to have fun with superheroes again.
There's nothing gothic about its aesthetic, its just grimdark like Nolan's.
@@erikschwartz1214 yea its more like Finchers seven
I am very excited about this movie. I’m glad they used London or places in England with cgi on top of it to make it look more Gothic. Gotham shouldn’t be Oakland, Chicago, New York or the Bronx or whatever. It should be a statuesque hell city.
this is exactly why Gotham should look less like “generic modern city #10” and more like the city from Se7en
Vesky Yes. Also ayy fellow RoachDoggJR
It essentially did on the series "Gotham".
It’s fictional. It should look like whatever the writer needs it to. Hell, modern architecture infringing on older gothic buildings and the gentrification that comes with it would be a hella interesting story
Its ideal look is more like a Victorian era, rain-soaked, gloomy London, IMO...
There is the idea that Se7en is actually supposed to be set in Gotham so...heh
Honestly, I think we just need a balance between These visions. He can smile every once and a while, and he can definitely have Allies. But they should still explore character motives and depict Gotham as a nightmare scape. If we can find a balance of this, we will probably be well off.
The problem with modern Batman stories is precisely that: an excessive fixation with grimdark and hopeless paranoia. Stories like these usually make for great psychological tension and emotional drama.
But they are essentially a rabbit hole of narrative depression. Things never get better, until the very final panels.
I for one prefer comics where Batman exerts a multilateral active presence in Gotham but in a more diverse fashion, either as Batman, through unstoppable determination and unrelentless pursuit, or as Bruce Wayne with wide financial and institutional support for his city.
I could never agree more with you on the topic of the Joker. Yes, we know that he's the most famous villain and opposite to Batman, but I want to see other villains shine for once. I feel like part of the reason they overuse him is because he's made so much money outside of comics. We've seen great actors put a special twist on this character which so many loved and the writers wanted to capitalize on this character's popularity.
Scarecrow is villain I always thought was cool but seemed to never get main antagonist line up. It'd be cool to see more story arcs with him.
Phoenix's take on Joker is the best Batman-related film in decades. I take the Lego films more seriously than the rest of the crap.
actually is popular because he is easy for directors like christopher nolan who have no interest in the batman methos,
think about it no one likes a crazy clown yet we all know what clowns are supposed to be like and what dysfunctional looks like making the joker an easy character to act no actor has gone wrong doing the joker two face and the riddler are a bit harder to do.
Honestly, I think people just love Joker and as an artist I'd would only work on a batman comic if I got to draw the joker because he's just awesome.
@@thatunicornhastheaudacity Plus the mental aspect of his "power" /chemical would be an interesting aspect to explore, as well...
Tbe problem with modern Batman stories os he's treated like a god when he's supposed to be a skilled detective. His overwhelming presence in the comics ruins other dc comics stories imo. The fact that he is at the center of everything makes DC feel less like universe and more like One city with some DLC aka Superman, JLA, GL, Flash, & etc. The creator of Black Lightning commented something similar a few years ago that Batmans overexposure in DC comics ruins DC comics as a universe. For example i can read multiple books at marvel and not feel like a single character is the center of the universe.
Yeah, i noticed that too ...
And some fans, sorry fans, saying bullshit like "IAM BATMAN"
Fuck it Batman is a human who struggles not a perfect 10000 IQ, perfect trained, never wrong , without any flaws jerk, who Knows all better and is more powerfull than any one because of some stupid tech and super plan...
@@majormononoke8958 Yeah. Writers who get Batman wrong forget that he's a normal human man who can only do so much.
I've been meaning to read Batman Forever, but the idea that Batman died and everyone was sad, then battled for the cowl, then Batman traveled through various time periods to witness his destiny of becoming Batman in each one of them before taking back the cowl in Gotham, that all just focuses way too much on the guy.
While Batman is human, it is also essential to his character, that he be competent and while not superhuman - at least be at the peak or even a slightly exaggerated peak of human performance.
Batman isn't a man, he's a myth, and a character; one we are meant to aspire to. That's a good thing.
I do agree, he does have a bit too much representation in the comics (and all media to be honest), and I wish they'd dial it back a bit but can you blame them? Batman is one of the single greatest fictional characters ever imagined. Hands down.
@@majormononoke8958 I don't even understand what you were trying to say with the 'IAM BATMAN' line.
It's one of the most memorable moments in any of his comicbook runs and that whole scene is a great summary of Batman's character.
As much as like horror Batman it can get tiring after a while. I love that Batman found a family and friends. I like that there are some light in Batman's life and that at his darkest moments there's a family there to help him. The horror will always be there in the past stories and his story will always circle back to it.
Also the fact that friends and family are what can keep a man grounded and going no matter how bad things get, without that love he’d become like the villains. This man said as much when talking about how Batman would have become like them without Alfred’s care.
i feel like there needs to be a healthy balance but as of now with the snyder just not in batman character and the comics way too light also i prefer him being alone not wearing god armour aka hellbat
It just doesn't feel right, he can sidekicks and people in his life that make him happy there's just too much. Batman has always been a gothic hero, everything about batman is focused on that. So diving to much into the happy side of batman kind of ruins that. It's like if for a while Spiderman was dark and brooding, he wasn't happy anymore and only felt pain. You could do that with his character but if that went to far with that (especially in the main cannon) and then for years all we got was a dark version of Spiderman that never smiled, no one would like that, it doesn't fit him. You can explore the opposites of characters but if that's all they do for years with little signs of what people liked before then it kinda of ruins the character. IDK
@@Riverside_23 There's definitely some merit to it though.
Batman doesn't have to be purely dark and gloomy all the time. That's the primary focus, sure, but there has to be some light to the darkness. In the case of Gotham, Batman himself is the light. If you don't have that, you end up with Grimdark.
Batman can't really be happy forever, but he can have moments of warmth and happiness with people close to him.
I'd say that for the sake of it, these people should be restricted to Alfred, Robin, Commissioner Gordon, and sometimes Catwoman. Maybe Nightwing and Barbara Gordon if they're present.
In a way, Batman, Gotham, and the series more or less reflect each other on what all of them should be.
"Gloomy, depressing, fucked up, but still hopeful enough to keep going, despite everything."
@@Lechgang yep keep Batman dark but also have him capable of showing empathy. If I remember he comforted a girl on the doors of death showing she wasn’t alone, which is why Waller did project Batman beyond in DCAU. Loved that Batman
I also noticed that a LOT of the recent artwork is actually just posed CG character models; they feel like mannequins cosplaying instead of characters
I think that's Mikel Janin's artwork. It's pretty nice, but I wish the stories they were attached to were better.
Something else that's also popular by modern artists is using a 3D program to generate backgrounds such as buildings.
While efficient, I feel it eliminates the sporadic part of doing art.
I just want to point out to anyone wondering about the thumbnail. It isn't a version of the Joker. It is the character from the 1928 film "The Man Who Laughs."
I feel bad that I havent watched that film yet, Ive been meaning to for ages.
doodily doo it’s pretty sad if I can remember correctly
The best Joker that never was...
Gwynplaine is the name of the character
A major inspiration for the Joker, if I'm not mistaken.
The best thing to ever happen to Scarecrow was when he got a yellow ring during Blackest Night. Wish they had done a lot more with that because it suits him so well.
1000℅ agreed
They actually let him use a yellow ring in the rebirth green lanterns series. It was great
The Bat and Cat wedding will be one of the biggest fan rage moments for years to come. So many side stories and other bat family characters were brought in only for it to go nowhere. What was the point?! Seem like some big slap to the face and punishment to the readers who dared to believe that Bruce would actually get married to someone that he loved. Like "Haha! Batman never gets a happily ever after! You should know that by now!'
I hated the end, as well.
Lmfao true XD both stories really fucked me up.
Thank. GOD. Tom King is off Batman 🙏😂
I’ve always liked the idea that no one normal DOES live in Gotham. That was kind of the reason why there’s so many insane people that keep popping up in Gotham.
I have no idea when Batman came into my life, I remember him always being there, there's a picture of me somewhere in the Attic of me as a little kid, playing with a Batman and Joker toy, in a Batman tent...
I suppose it was just always meant to be
Personally I really liked how the made the villains background characters in the games, in arkham city you could go anywhere in the city and feel like you are intruding in on one of their spaces. For example of you go down into the sewer you'll find killer crock because that's his home and you are just passing, it really feels as if they all just 'life' in Gotham.
I wouldn’t say “life in Gotham” is a good way to describe the Arkham games since the city is always empty lol. I would love a game where citizens don’t leave the city and I can actually free roam through Gotham and be Batman
@@johnp.smithasimpleman7281 The issue is as simple as running over civilians in the Batmobile. There's no way you could make a game mechanic that prevents that. You could make civilians invulnerable, or even untargetable, but you could never make Batmobile not destroy them when you git them full-speed lol. It could be pretty funny though.
DRL CA Lol I get that, but I’m pretty sure they could find a way to make it work. Even if they remove the batmobile
The problem with keeping the Batman comics as such a horror story is its presence in the greater DC Comics context. Why would the Justice League allow Gotham to stay this madhouse of a city when they are personal friends with the guy who watches over it? You see a few episodes of the Animated series where this is kind of brought up- when they beat Bane by having Superman dress up as Batman and fight him. And once that is brought up even once, the question in any Dark Knight Returns scenario becomes- why did the other superheroes let this get this bad? When one of them is already being a vigilante there, it becomes less easy to justify the others refraining from interfering, and it takes either very clever writing or very bad writing for people like the Joker to stay scary when the Flash and Wonder Woman and Superman are showing up and cleaning house. The darker Gotham you want... CAN'T work as well in the same bright world of the other heroes.
Even if you used the excuse Marvel used (the big heroes are fighting in space or another dimension), you have the problem with Batman himself being too powerful. He can beat pretty much anything and anyone with a spoon if he had training, so if the League was fighting Darkseid, they would have to bring him along.
The reasoning for that which I rarely see explored is that Batman just won't let them. In Justice League, early on he only shows up when something is so big it threatens Gotham as well. Eventually he gets roped into being a regular part of the crew because the threats just keep growing exponentially. They touch on the idea of him being exclusive, but it gets dropped very quickly.
But they don't explore how Batman would handle say, Green Lantern dealing with a larger attack by The Royal Flush Gang for example that threatens the eastern seaboard. What if Batman simply wouldn't let anybody else deal with it? What if he sees Gotham as his problem and his responsibility, and thus he has to be the one to clear up any issues if they extend beyond Gotham? That if Superman or Cyborg or Plastic Man resolve the crisis, Batman views that as a failure? What if Gotham was such a dangerous place simply because Batman was so stubborn and so full of pride that he would sooner sabotage outside help than accept it?
That just means Batman should really be in his own universe. It makes the most sense.
maybe superheroes work like drug dealers
Let’s just put a fishbowl over Gotham, keep those nice little colors off of it
That Serious House Joker is the most terrifying rendition I've seen, holy shit
I didn’t anticipate watching an hr long commentary on Batman comics yet here I am; with a renewed love for comics. Thank you so much for sharing.
I don't necessarily see anything wrong with an occasionally lighter Batman story. I feel like having the majority of his stories be the solo "batfamily-less" grim Batman stories with the occasional appearance by another character that lightens the mood and brings a bit of levity would be a nice way to strike a balance. But trying to pull Batman too far into the "and then everyone lived happily ever after" side of super hero stories just feels weird.
I love Batman: The Animated Series. Its art deco motif gives satisfies the impression that it’s not our world but nonetheless a real world, as it was pointed out here. Also, there is still grittiness in the stories and the darkness is there (literally and figuratively) but it is also palatable to a younger audience. It also set the standard for superhero animated series and even won awards.
Fun fact: They drew the animation on black paper (instead of the standard white), that’s why the blacks are really dark and shadows are deep.
Grant Morrison seems unaware that the South side of Chicago exists
I think he also realizes that The Loop exists in Chicago as well. I think Gotham should have gutters AND penthouses like major cities do. The thing is, there is crime and stories in both and I think Scott Snyder found that in his run with both Court of Owls and the series that took place with Harper Rowe and Duke Thomas. To me, there is room for both in Batman's side of the universe. Some of the city can be developed and shiny, and you can have the grime and tall towers. The writers this video mentions focuses on one over the other.
I find your take on King's Batman being a continuation of Morrison's problems interesting, but not exact. For all of King's focus on Batman's "mental health" there isn't anything positive about King's version. Morrison's Batman managed to escape from Darkseid's weird time travel hell by remembering how every member of the Batfamily and the Justice League was there for him. King's Batman is only happy when Catwoman is around. Morrison's Batman is campy silver age fun ran through modern lens, King's Batman is just depressing drivel
Morrison understood the need to move forward, to me; you'd had about twenty years of Batman stories where it was arguably a misery-fest, culminating in Infinite Crisis where some very real flaws were revealed about Bruce as a character and his place in the superhero community. So there was a need to make Batman a little less of an asshole, and he did that while preserving the 'man who plans for everything' idea of the character; you look at the initial Black Glove arc on the island and Batman is quite complimentary of the other Batman-inspired heroes which pays off down the line. Morrison also looks at the need to move forward by examining things with Bruce out of the picture, and the Dick/Damien stories are quite satisfying in that regard as they have to pick things up and deal with a drastically different status quo. I loved that era of Batman comics; you had Red Robin, Steph as Batgirl, the Knight and Squire miniseries, so much of it was good.. And then DC had to revamp and Morrison seemed to reflect bitterly on how stupid this was by making the second half of Batman Inc so much darker and miserable.
Snyder regressed things a little bit, but overall I like his run and the Batman/Joker dynamic he fleshed out much more thoroughly to be the core of his overall run and the work beyond it; King, though... I've seen nothing I like from his run.
My perfect Batman story concept.
The joker is dead.
Every member of his rouges gallery could have done it, and Batman needs to figure out who did it.
OR...
We finally see the "Suicide Course" mentioned in The Killing Joke come to a head, and we then focus on other Batman villians.
This way we;
1. End Joker fatigue.
2. Focus on the rest of his incredible rouges gallery.
It’s the idea that makes the most sense only problem is they’ll never do it because joker makes bank
So how long we keeping him dead
Joker is very cool In my oppinon but I don't like too much.
@@hiruyabebaw807 a good while at least.
Long enough so that when he comes back he isnt the only main batman villian to be repeatedly used.
Great idea! The Joker dies... And Batman keeps hallucinating with him, making him arguably the most important villain of the videogame still! 🤡🤡🤡
I agree that Batman can’t be the solitary cryptid-like character with a family around him at all times, but I think your argument kind of falls apart when you called all of them the same. My guy Red Hood was a CRIME LORD. It’s also an instance where the nature of a comic book universe can be at the detriment of the individual characters. The Bat-family may not be essential to Batman runs, but they are essential to the universe. They are the second generation, which has become fairly important in the DC universe. I mean just look how successful runs like Teen Titans and Young Justice are.
Most of batman's "robin but then went solo" companions are all bland bootlegs of Nightwing.
I strongly feel people who don't like the batfamily don't truly appreciate the whole of who Bruce actually is. At heart, he's a family man. He's caring. The kind who adopts orphans from trauma and poverty. This is essential to his being.
Being a good, caring man should not "get in the way" of your male power fantasy. Being a genuinely good father figure/teacher to people who rely on you is far more powerful and worth admiration.
Grant Morrison did NOT take away the Gothic Gotham City, that was an editorial decision that happened during the plotting of No Man's Land when Luthor helped rebuild the city. Morrison just put emphasis on this part in his stories.
Just look at the way Gotham City is pictured in Batman's comic books nowadays... It's exactly as he said, the city lost its dark aspects...
@@Myers_Johan did you even read the comment you replied to?
@@jakejutras5420 Yeah I'm just emphasising the fact Gotham is not what one day it was.
Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth is one of my favorite comics of all time, and this video gave me a new appreciation of it. Thanks for that!
I find it weirdly hypocritical that one of your favorite comics is a story about Batman finding an old stuffed bear to comfort a recently orphaned Dick Grayson, yet you hate the idea of a Bat Family. You bring up several times that he's a dark, brooding loner but you also need to keep in mind that those things aren't all he is. He is a dark vigilante, but he's also an orphan who lost his parents at a young age so he fights crime so no other child has to go through that same kind of pain. He's brooding, but not a stone cold sociopath. I agree that it's gotten pretty out of hand with Duke, Harper Row and the two Batwings, but adopting a circus orphan who watched his parents get murdered, which Bruce also witnessed happen, is perfectly in character for him. Bruce can be cold sometimes, but he's also a caring and compassionate person, so why wouldn't he take young orphans under his wing and make sure they don't turn into hardened criminals?
I feel like this is something you seriously neglected in this video, sure Gotham is a gothic city that's cursed to forever be at odds with itself, but it's not completely desolate and hopeless, and neither is Batman. His empathy is every bit as important as his ability to instill fear into criminals.
It's always DARK DARK GROTESQUE DARK EDGY BROODING and there can be too much of that sometimes.
I don't see any 'hypocrisy' in this. Batman is capable of being compassionate but not of relating comfortably to other people. Most of all he is incapable of forming family-style intimacy. His whole character is defined by this, by his loss of family and inability to piece together any kind of life without it. His heroics are a way to focus and distract himself, and would be entirely unnecessary if he wasn't so driven by that core loss.
I have to say, I am so impressed by how deep your Batman knowledge is. I don't like 1 dimensional super hero characters. I shy away from Superman and Capt American for that reason. Batman is my favorite because he is the most complex. He is as capable of fighting crime as he is incapable being happy, marrying Selina Kyle, being a father to Damien Wayne, role model to Dick Grayson, or trusting his own Justice League colleagues.
I also believe that Joker knows Batman much more intimate than even Alfred does. If you understand what Joker's _"Killing Joke"_ was implying, it was implying that Batman is just as crazy as the Joker. His obsession to stop crime, yet refusing to kill has taken him to Gotham City rooftops dressed as a fucking bat while calling someone else crazy because they're dressed like a clown. What do you think?
Divorced From Humanity Batman and Joker have one of the most interesting relationships in history
Having one sidekick he cares for and having an entire *family* he simply delegates tasks to are very different things...
"WHAT KILLED THE DINOSAURS!???? THE ICE AGE!!!!!"
HEY!
......chill
Dinner's going to be *cold* tonight!
😂😂😂😂
COOL PARTY
Stay cool, bird boy!
I have one major problem with this video: it completely ignored the role Denny O'Neil played in bringing that horror into the Batman comics during the 70s.
The irony of this post is that Bob Kane and Bill Finger never intended for Batman to be a "Gothic horror" character. In Gothic horror, the reader or viewer is the one who experiences angst, due to sympathizing with a tormented protagonist. Batman comics were never supposed to be that melancholy. Yes, Batman is a creature of horror...but he's a creature of horror FOR CRIMINALS. It's the villains who should be frightened of Batman, not the other way around. You're supposed to vicariously enjoy Batman, and making him really tormented and weird tends to defeat the purpose of that.
He just doesn't understand Batman at all.
This is what you get when you get people who make ‘essay’ videos about subjects they know nothing about. A lot of pomp and arrogance.
@@nexus7034 yes. At the cost of popularity have I figured not too many people know who Batman actually is, not even for his very basic traits. Batman is a hero born in darkness to make Gotham City a better place. He is doing what the police don't.
TheDarkTicoKnight12 yeah he’s literally the inverse version of Superman. They’re both heroes, but Superman grew up with parents and was in a loving environment. Whereas Batman grew up in a shit hole like Gotham. They’re both heroes, but go about things a different way.
I loved what you said! People read too many comics like "Killing joke" and forget about "War on crime". I've always loved the mix of sci-fi, detective stories, and swashbuckling novels. Batman has no appeal for me in Gothic Horror because he loses the characteristics that I love. The swashbuckling part that is perseverance and honor becomes an obsession and decadence and the detective fades away. The part about justice, overcoming your limitations and protection of the weak turns into madness and egocentric behavior. Everything that I loved when I met the character is lost. That is what I think BAtman is losing, his hero side, with all the problematization and brooding.
"It's simply not realistic."
Good stories don't need to be realistic, most aren't. Real life doesn't have protagonists, antagonists, plot progression, story climaxes, or epitomes of tragedy or philanthropy, but a good story usually does.
The whole point of a story is to convey ideas about life and make people feel emotions, not to be a documentary about real life. I don't want to read a 500 issue series about a man who fumbles over his words and works a dead-end job as an office-worker, where the most interesting thing that happens is a printer malfunction. I want to read about a former world-class surgeon turned sorcerer supreme, an eccentric billionaire turned iron man, an orphan turned crime-fighting bat-man, and space-alien turned struggling philanthropist (new name for Superman?).
As I understand it, a good story will do these things;
- Exaggerate and make things ridiculous if need be, but set out in-universe rules and follow them.
- Keep a continuity and be consistent.
- Make characters believable, make them "real".
- Tell a story about being human, even if the characters aren't.
Creepshow started as a comic Book
Lol real life can fucking rule if you do it right
Yeah we can agree that Morrison's stories exploring metaphysics is genius but he's still a British white man who obviously hasn't had to live in a crappy neighborhood.
Edit: (Aug 9th): turns out he's Scottish.
@@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme you have no idea what you're talking about, like anyone that uses "white man" as an insult, Morrison is from Glasgow
@@LarryHazard ok so he's technically Scottish, but he's still Caucasian, and he probably lived places that are clean and has no idea what American cities today look like. Take Seattle, it's a fucking Shit hole.
I disagree with this video
Yes I agree that Gotham should be a dark and dangerous place, but Batman doesn’t need to be dark 100% of the time.
Batman and superheroes in general are great because there are so many different interpretations, I have no problem with Batman being a dark character, but there is nothing wrong with him smiling or being happy once in a while. If he was just a dark brooding figure of vengeance who never talked to anybody and was angry all the time that would get old fast.
I don’t understand your problem with the bat family, they are all established characters with their own stories, and they aren’t even together that often so what are you complaining about? They all work on their own mostly and are only brought together for events. I like that Batman has friends and family so he has others to talk and relate to.
Also scenes like the bat themes restaurant give time for character interactions and character development, I don’t need fast paced action 24/7 a scene of a group of likeable characters just talking to each other is enough for me sometimes.
You say that you can’t say anything about the bat family, robin? Night wing? Batgirl? These are iconic characters core to Batman’s mythos and are features in many of the comics you praised so much, what’s not to like about them?
You say that you liked the older stories because they were deconstructions and deep looks at the characters and their relation to Batman, then say you just want fun light hearted stuff like mr freeze robbing a bank? Make up your mind man!
One thing I did agree on was the use of villains. I do think they should be used better but I disagree on your opinions of modern villains. We don’t need to see the same villains used over and over, sometimes we need new things. You said that they are underdeveloped and have no core relation to Batman but the classic villains didn’t either. The riddler, two face and even the joker started off as one off generic bad guys for Batman to punch, they took time to evolve. These new villains need time too.
Overall great video really well edited, but I just wholeheartedly disagree with your take on Batman.
I respectfully disagree with a lot of what's said in this video. I can see the appeal of simply examining villains and why they tick, and imagining a gritty super hero who's mission is ultimately pointless, but for many batman fans, we do NOT want to see Batman's cause as futile. We want to see the Batman from the comic mentioned in the beginning, who profoundly cares about the people of his city, but doesn't necessarily say it in words. The batman who does what he can to make his home a better, and is, at some level, succeeding. Many of us want to see the Batman who takes in children who lost their parents like he did. Hell, some of us just like seeing what a vigilante detective can do with million dollar gadgets. Batman can be a beacon of hope in an otherwise gloomy, but not totally depressing world.
I love Gothic Horror, but I have seen more than enough depressing examinations that villainize mental illness. This video claims that if you don't like seeing a tortured soul wage a hopeless battle against madness then you don't understand batman, but that's a single interpretation of a character that existed for decades. Every writer has had a different take on Batman, and none of them are really more right than the rest. You can love this short period where writers dissected hopelessness and painted suffering, but that doesn't make it the obligatory core of the character.
Youre right and Im very happy you said it
Also I hate The Dark Night Returns, the persona of Batman should be a source of good, and they make "Batman" weirdly twisted? It's not.. Batman
@@eblake7495 Thanks, I'm glad to know I'm not alone in this.
Your opinion is valid however I have a counter. Batman is Noir. Meant that way from the beginning. Cynical detective in the blanket of night solving crime who scrutinizes the psychology of the antagonist to aid in solving the crime. They made him a detective in celebration of Pulp Fiction books which ended up breeding Film Noir. The villains are strong supporting characters. In some contexts, they are the main characters. The Batman villains, in other contexts, are written as antiheros. Please name another universe where the villains are as explored, if not even more so than the main hero. The villains make Batman what it is. Not to mention that no other superhero franchise has had as many successful endeavors. Batman teams have won many awards, Oscars included. Know why? Batman and his villains reflect various elements of human psychology. They are more relatable than some god or alien because they aim to be set in a mostly "superpowerless" reality which in turn pulls it into an examination over fantasy. "Why the f would a person go THIS crazy?" "What made them this way?" Batman is a rich weirdo trying to tame something wealth creates, crazy-ass angry people. His superpower is literally his wealth. Gotham is a political statement. And the best way to portray a political statement is the extreme of what that means. Gotham is a dark pit because it's a cynical, poetic interpretation of the underbelly of a corrupt city. It is the cop and the robber twisted into narrative prose. Expressionism works for it because it visually exposes you to a feeling you may get from walking city streets at night, vulnerable to crime. I lived in Chicago and I've felt that feeling at night. I attest. Batman is still going strong because of these layers. It's relatability. It's complex and often very human characters. The darkness of the world. Sure, in another world and universe Gotham's narrative may not make sense, but adding him to the Justice League or whatever is a crossover episode gone too far. While I agree there can be other interpretations of any franchise character, Batman is interesting for people because of the dark side of it. There is escapist, "the good guy wins in the end", glory for the Batman prose out there. But because of the shape of the Batman, it has become a perfect outlet for writers to examine geopolitical social problems. If you don't like it there's always Spiderman.
@@taylorwoodard4724 I think you can have the same sort of exploration of darkness, the same delving into the human mind and the state of wealth, without the forgone conclusion that it's pointless. I'd argue that some of the best depictions of batman explore both the minds of his enemies, and how he contrasts with them. People love seeing the joker try to prove that everyone is one bad day away from evil all the more because batman continues to prove that some people aren't. we can see villain's flaws and find them relatable, find them compelling, we can see that the economic state of Gotham will constantly lead to more evil, but i think that all of that is made better by seeing batman as the lone bit of hope.
Spiderman is fine if you want something lighthearted, but I particularly like seeing things that show you how dark things can get for the purpose of saying that even when things are bad, they can get better.
"Riddler has appeared in two comics: In Year Zero, where he was depicted very well and scary and in War of jokes and riddles, that was written by Tom King."
I love me some subtle humor XD
I've always summed it up like this:
There are two main interpretations of Batman. One is an emotionally scarred detective who likes to dress like dracula. The second is a brooding, stubbly faced, tactical crime fighter who breaks people's legs. I think most interpretations of the character have some of both, but usually lean a little closer on one or the other. To me, Batman is definitely at his best when he's more the former than the latter.
Batman doesn’t always need to be horrific to be good, trust me I love those stories too, but they’re not good stories just because they are dark and depressing, they’re good stories because they all have something to say about the character. Batman is not dead, horror comics are not dead, I think you just need to broaden the horizons of your artistic taste. And hey if you think you’ve got something to say about the character of Batman, or just about the horror genre in general, write something, I’ll be the first person to pick it up. Cause judging from the way you talk about this genre, I can tell you have a passion for.
Yeah just look at BTAS and TNBA, they were dark without being specifically horror.
@@georgesummitt1980 there was horror in the man-bat episode. Just saying
@@georgesummitt1980 Exactly. Batman doesn't have to be horror but that's him at his best. But he should always be dark
I mean we literally have two current comic runs that are horror based, Dceased and Immortal Hulk, both are oftentimes horrifying in both concept and execution.
@@allypearlman5569 right! It’s not a dead genre, maybe a little less common than it used to be but it’s certainly still alive.
When I was a kid Gotham City was the city I would love to live in because of the statues, and cathedral skyscrapers, and dark industrial modern architecture next to classic gothic architecture... It creates this dark timelessness. ❤️ Which I was seriously missing in the Nolan's cinematic take. My favourite live action take of Gotham City was Batman Returns. I'm excited for the new Batman... It's rumoured to be a live action adaptation of the Long Halloween!!! 💕❤️💕
I
remember when I was surprised by my father in the middle of a school day and taken out of school early to go see the Micheal Keaton BATMAN in the Eighties and It was amazing to me because I was already a young kid growing up in Baltimore
your breakdown of the batman villains' and how each is a dark reflection of Bruce Wayne's psychology is genius and changed my life.
Thinking that batman should be defined by a single era of stories is a mistake, batman has existed for over 80 years now and just focusing on that patch of 10 years will lead to stagnation and things like the dark knight strikes again and batman v superman, not to mention basing your entire thesis for this video on what you personally enjoy and condemning the rest as wrong is not the best argument
Yeah. That’s something I’ve noticed about most of this guy’s work. He has his tastes, and everything else is drivel. Which is something of a problem when you consider that his tastes kinda suck.
This. I get that he has his preferences, he's entitled to that and I can see how his love for one specific genre oozes through this essay. But too much focus on being just one thing isn't the source of creativity as is stated or implied, but the opposite. Changing genre over time isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I agree, I also really don’t get if he sees the stagnant nature of comic book characters as negative or positive because he’ll mention these characters are not changing or growing in a negative light but then complain about how Batman is changing. It doesn’t really create a point, just a series of conflicting thoughts.
@@anxiousbutstillalive9488 Oh thank goodness its not just me. This felt super conflicting on many levels. Like they brought up/defended two of the brightest (one of the Campiest) parts of Batman media then says only horror stories. I felt so confused as to what point they wanted to actually make.
@@anxiousbutstillalive9488 Batman should always be dark if not horror. If bright then it should be like the Nolan trilogy
I think the most memorable Riddler story, was when he tried to summon a Demonic Bat and trying to use Batman as a sacrifice.
Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder certainly agree with you.
Matt Reeves’s The Batman understands the message of Batman fighting a endless war on crime, looking at the nihilism in the face & going out your own way. Things may not get better but Batman can still do some good for people despite the endless suffering they go through. To make the world in a better place with the time that is given to you. It understands the tragic & hopeful double edge sword of Batman while bringing the darkness & horror back to Gotham that were completely absent in the modern comics. Much like Arkham City it feels more like Batman to me than many of the recent comics after the fantastic Snyder & Capullo run have been. And the comics can be just a good but they just feel like typical superhero stories now.
you should read batman the imposter
@@randommonkey4900 Never heard of it. What is it about?
@@nicholasbodo4327 it’s a short 3 issue series that came out not to long ago with amazing art and noir. Someone has dressed up as Batman and has been killing criminals. This Bruce isn’t the most stable like in the movie but Alfred left him when he was young. Much better then most modern Batman comics recommend it 100%
*Reeves’*
@@bucketstuck7137 Thanks for the correction
Sure think Batman needs a good balance. I can agree that given his origins and for the sake of the universe and its stories that Gotham and Batman need to be mostly dark and themed after horror o and mystery, but I also think Batman can have small moments that are a bit more light. It shouldn't overdo or misuse dark themes and subject matter, but it also shouldn't overdo overly bright and/or silly things.
"they're about comics instead of being comics" pretty much defines all popular media these days
This video is the reason why I started reading comics. I never knew I needed these stories as badly as I do, but they are what I’ve been needing that the dc movies and shows just can’t provide.
I first became acquainted with Batman around 1954, when I was 9. I was very ill, and my adoptive parents brought me some comic books to keep me entertained while I was confined to my bed. One of them was an issue of Detective Comics which contained a Batman story. The Joker scared me to death -- and I loved the story and the comic! Here's a great overview of Batman's career.
You've completely made up that story didn't you?
@@Reject101Personal Just because nothing interesting happens in your life doesn’t mean nothing interesting happens in other people’s lives
Great video, though I fundamentally disagree on some points. I believe that Batman is not fundamentally a horror story, though it certainly contains those elements and does it terrifically. Its fundamentally about someone standing up for good in the face of darkness, both within and without. Its noir, its detective, its a flawed but ultimately heroic figure struggling against the odds.
Which is why I feel the Dark Knight Returns is one of the greatest disservices to the Batman character and universe out there.
It ultimately misses the point of Batman, that he will NOT surrender, by making him a drunk, angry, bitter old man essentially yelling at all the kids to get off his lawn. Its shallow, regressive, and sees the "punchy punchy" aspect of Batman. Its one of the reasons I generally dislike Miller's writing on many things. Its always a tad...off.
Not that Batman could never fail, far from it. Screws up all the time. But both Kingdom Come and Batman Beyond, in my opinion, do a superior job of showcasing Batman and Bruce Wayne as he ages. His ideals, his core of who he is that makes him get up and drag his battered and bloody form through twelve types of hell and back, will shape him.
In Kingdom Come, faced with his broken body and new hurdles, he resorts to robots and police state monitoring and then later to multi-layered levels of scheming.
In Batman Beyond, when the toll of his crusade wears on him, it is the violation of his principles that makes him choose to give up the cowl.
Because Batman is crazy and broken, but in a very specific way.
Having him be a thrill junkie as "the goddamn Batman" or grumpy grandpa beating up the youth element in "Dark Knight Returns" simply misses the mark of the character, IMO.
Of course, like you said, 80 years is quite a time span.
Maybe the heart of Batman, is in fact, Adam West's glorious, glorious camp. :D
I'll be honest, everyone hates the story but I actually prefer reading The Dark Knight Strikes Again over TDKR; the story is incredibly dumb in parts and the visuals very early-2000's, but I just liked that Millar seemed to look at all the stories that had occurred due to his and Moore's stories and asked 'the fuck is wrong with you?' before embarking on an amazing journey of throwing Adam West's camp as a can of paint all over the grim misery the Batman comics had become. Batman slashes a goddamn 'Z for Zorro' across Lex Luthor's face, the Atom battles bacteria in a petri dish prison, Green Lantern saves the earth with a ring-energy hug and gives his world a big green kiss goodbye, and Hawkman caves Lex Luthor's skull in as Batman watches and sips tea. Amazing.
The thing with Gotham is that you’ve gotta have both. You can have the neon sin-city aspect while also having the damned gothic aspect. Just like people, Batman has different aspects. But I’ll agree with you that modern Batman focuses on the bay family far too much, and Tom King’s run was poor.
I don’t think it’s completely fair to say Morrison partially ruined the modern day mythos of The Batman due to using a colorful pallet and a decent looking city. I love darker batman stories too, that’s what specifically called to me in morrisons run (besides the amazingly written unique characters.) You have Pyg mutilating innocent people and turning them into mindless henchmen, a cannibal assassin who ate everyone on a plane for no reason, batman going butt-fuck insane and beating the hell out of criminals with a baseball bat, and batman watching his son get gutted by his clone who was sent out by his mother.
Not to mention, Bruce wayne is very selfless in this series, I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to assume he (the second richest man in the DC universe) is doing his part to better Gotham on the surface level.
Tom King showed me that there is such a thing as too dark with Batman. Batman's downright inept, both as a hero and as a person. Oh, you're sooooooo deep, King, for making Batman be young Bruce's way to commit suicide. Because Batman is just a manchild's dream, after all. And he clearly believes Batman's mission is futile...with more cynicism, and lacking all the optimism of the story of a man who, instead of being crushed by tragedy, decided to grow from it and be better. I've been noticing, lately, A LOT of modern writers think this way about Batman's mission and equate it to ineptitude. Even Snyder, with the recent Batman Who Laughs mini-series.
I've always subscribed to the idea that the reason Batman and Superman's fight had so much impact was because both are symbols of hope, but in opposing ways. But Batman is STILL a hero!
Facts
Saying the name Tom King is blasphemy lol
Lmao many people have commented on the fact that T("Om") King likes to basically write himself into his stories... Which is why all the main characters/superheros he writes pretty much all have the same personality, and don't act like they're supposed to...
Its like go to therapy sir. And stay there
Tom King's run sounds like it's been the One More Day of Batman.
Dude, you've articulated the issues I didn't realise I had with the latest runs of Batman, and why I generally avoid them. Thank you.
The fact that comics not using batman villains really true, and reminded me one encounter.
This exchange was around 2013; back then I own a small comic shop with a friend and we was part of local fiction convention that one time.
Customer, after looking on comics for a while: - Hello. I'm, sorry, but do you actually have a good understanding of comics you sell?
- Yes, of course. I pretty much can give a small synopsis of, like, 90% issues we have.
- Wonderful. Can you help me with finding few cool ones? I'm interested in Batman.
- Of course. We have a lot of Batman singles from late 80s to 2010s. There is classic Detective Comics oneshots, Knightfall, Gothic, Batman RIP, "Dick run", Black mirror, almost all Shadow of the bat and Gotham GCPD...
- Cool... Can you give me some good Scarecrow stories? I really enjoy Scarecrow.
- ............Fuck.........
In the end, I sell her few Knightfall issues with Scarecrow in it, but still embarrassed for not finding exactly what customer wanted, despite having a shit ton of Batman comics in store. There just wasn't a "Scarecrow" Scarecrow story, and I didn't even noticed it until then. Even when he was "main villain", he was in like 5 pages from 3 issue story, and for the most part of it - Bats was fighting rat-werewolfs or some shit.
You’ve really captured the reason I’ve had such a hard time getting into the recent Batman comics. I grew up in the golden horror age of the Batman comics and I’ve grown more and more frustrated with how they’ve turned. Thank you for making this video!
Start reading real novels instead. You have to create your own pictures.
Love to see an update on this, the new Writer James Tyrion V has a background of almost all horror and seems to be bringing back everything you like about Batman
I don't think there's anything wrong with having Batman be happy sometimes, as long as the story is good. You get bizzarely hung up on this. I have other issues but good video overall.
Like Angle from Joss Whedon ;)
Especially for a long running series.
Yep. Batman doesn't have to always wallow in never ending misery.
Yeah, this video kind of feels like "when batman is allowed to be old-style comic and have a support network is bad"
Like, I don't care about 50% of the bat family either. But not liking Dick, Tim, Cass, etc. is illegal.
Well done video. It has some factual issues, some contradictions, and I personally don't agree, but I was interested the entire time and the editing is excellent. It's obvious you really cared about the material.
Liked and subbed.
Thank you!
Same as this really , great job you deserve more views.
moe trash although some of the factual issues are quite glaring, what this feels like is just a fan having a conversation about the property he loves
Scott Snyder: the best Batman writer named Snyder
The only Batman writer named Snyder tbh. Batfleck may have dressed like Batman but he definitely wasn’t Batman.
@@Watcher1105 Too bad considering a lot of people loved the Batfleck suit and even commented that it looked the most comic book accurate by far
45:48: So, when an author does something you like, he's doing and understanding what's the best for a character, but when they do something you don't like, they just want to put their mark on a character...
Honestly, through the entire thing you sound kind of hypocritical, almost straight up claiming that the changes you liked were good and the ones you don't like are bad.
What bothers me the most though is this idea you seem to have that your idea of what Batman is is the only correct one, or even the only possibility. Maybe to someone else Batman is not an hopeless struggle against an impossible task, but rather the search for hope in an hopeless situation. Batman is a symbol of fear to criminals, that has been confirmed multiple times, but nothing says he can't be hope for the innocents of Gotham. I'm pretty sure at least once it has been said that Batman does what he does so that no 8 year old will ever have to see his parents being murdered in front of his eyes again.
I personally really enjoy the Gothic horror atmosphere of Gotham, but I always disliked when comics or other media go completely off the rails into darkness with a character. Should Batman be brooding and serious and never smile as he fights the monsters of Gotham? Maybe. If you ask me, I'd say yes. Should he come close to losing himself and killing everyone around him every time he goes out? Should he be a monster, separated from the ones he fights just by his discipline in recognising who's innocent? Should he be alone, spiralling into madness and depression? As far as I'm concerned, the answer to all three is a hard "No!"
Because there's nothing wrong with the man who fights the horror and monsters that the worst of humanity has to offer every day finding solace in the embrace of a family.
I also am not a big fan of characters or stories being completely lost in darkness and hopelessness.
Yeah I think the moment that the video turns from "I like these things" to "this is how it *should* be" undermines the otherwise reasonable approach to all this. Like, there's plenty to like about that specific version of Batman...but it's really indicative that a lot of people would disagree that all the "banger" stories listed are actually iconic or good stories, and there are plenty of folks who feel just as strongly positive about storylines that are from the times that the video is shitting on.
Like, yeah, we get it that you like the version of a character that you grew up with. That's...pretty common no matter what form the character took when you were growing up. And there are times he gets into what made that version so positive for him...and then others where he seems to try to handwave it all by just telling us that "it's how it should be, therefore it is good." And that's...not quite the same thing.
Point taken. Some darkness is needed,though.
I'd like some cathedrals for my meal,thank you very much.
You’re wrong. The UA-camr is correct.
@@neurohack9038 You and the youtuber are both wrong. I'm correct.
See? I can say stuff without any explanation too.
Top of the video: Maybe I've lost passion for comics because I'm too aware of characters fundamentally not changing
20 minutes in: the problem with the Batman character is that he's changed
lol
The Batman that you want is 10% of the character. He was a lone guy brroding on a roof for less than 2 years before Robin was created. Then for 35 years he was Adam West Batman. Even when Dennis O'Neil and Neal Adams took the book in the 70s, he still wasnt the dark, brooding in the rain guy he was in the post-Crisis late 80s. Sure he was "The Darkknight Detective" but he was mainly a detective doing street level, realistic crime fighting. Yes, Frank Miller made the Dark Knight you want, but thats not what Batman is at his core. Hes always cared about his extended roster of characters. Hell, he had Harold the hunchback living in the Batcave in the 90s. And A Lonely Place of Dying shows perfectly why Batman NEEDS his "Bat family" by forcing him to move past Jason's death. So, in conclusion, you should go read Batman Ego amd see why Bruce Wayne's humanity is so important to the character.
Yeah I don’t really agree with some points. Batman has it’s roots in horror and Pulp yes, but claiming the character was defined by Miller in the 80’s is a bit silly. The 70’s is more like it, before Crisis - with Denny O’Neil and Neal Adams. The whole Joker is the other side of the coin bit from Arkham Asylym is pretty silly, since Batman isn’t insane. Modern Batman after the 80’s has had some terrific stories, and some awful ones. Knightfall is one of the best; classic Batman with the rouges, provning that only Bruce has the skill and mind to be Batman. I do agree the gothic element has been lost somewhat since the 70’s along with Batmans sanity. Batman is a sort of Sherlock Holmes/Zorro figure, as in gentleman like, mysterious, theatrical and extremly clever. I am rewatching the old 66 series with Adam West and that show, camp and all, gets Batman more right in his essense than Miller and many others that came after.
Darth Pancake Studios How is that not gentleman like? I mean the word in it’s original form, it was coined by knights for them to have a sort of code - like you didn’t kill a man who was down on his knees or stab someone in the back. And can also mingle with sharp minds, having a broad knowledge and can mingle within most parts of society. Sherlock Holmes and Zorro are examples of this, the characters Batman is based on mostly.
@@christianbjorck816 But then you're forgetting the entire reason Batman is even Batman in the first place. Dude saw his parents murdered in front of him when he was 9 or something and spent the next decade entirely dedicated into becoming it. Bruce Wayne is not a normal mentally healthy person.
TallicaMan1986 Batman is perfectly sane. More so than most people, that is why he is capable of reasoning and have skills beyond most mortal men. He is motivated by his parents death though. That is a whole other matter.
@@christianbjorck816 yeah, and that's the exact batman I dont like. Hes way better with his rogue gallery than hanging out with god damn superman and wonder woman. Atleast with his villains he s also fighting aspects of himself.
He's grossly over powered in those iterations and loses what made Batman cool.
TallicaMan1986 Well that is the character. I don’t see how being intelligent and stable makes him ”overpowered”. He can’t be at two places at once and the villans are usually almost as clever as him.
He’s not fighting aspects of himself in the villans. He is fighting powerful people who are using their intellect to do bad things. Scarecrow uses terror, Batman does the same thing to villans. He is matching wits with the Riddler, not trying to beat his own intellect. The Joker is insane and Batman is using his sanity to beat him.
And why would this be solved if he himself was insane? Also if you think he is beating something inside himself whole fighting villans wouldn’t he overcome said flaw the first time he beats them?
Don’t know what Superman and Wonder Woman has to do with this though.
Batman is a Detective, so he can’t be an emotional wreck who’s just good at fighting.
The thing about the 80's is that a LOT of people looked around, especially in large American cities, and felt like they were living in the kind of city that Gotham was in those comics.
They felt like violence, crime and poverty was all around all the time. I would say that was the main reason no one questioned why people lived in Gotham if the place was so terrible (especially given Metropolis exists in the same universe). That's one of the reasons I loved "No Man's Land", because it asked that question and, to a certain extent, it answered it.
It has been decades since most people stopped thinking about most metropolis as if they were a bad day away from turning into "Scape from New York" even if poverty thrives, so I kinda see Morrison's point about Gotham requiring a brighter outlook.
Gotham as we know it was based on New York, which used to be the cesspool of America. Now, New York is a legitimate place to be, not the safest sure, surely not the most equal in how it treats its citizens, but a good place to be. If New York can have that, why can't Gotham?
I actually agree with Morrison (who I still think is a madman but not in a bad way) that you need some sunshine or it's slog. A good comparisson to make is the Nolan Batman films compared to the Snyder's. Sloggy, murder Batman is off-putting. On the other end, having some sunlight and some beacons of hope against entropy is compelling. Also, look how many times you've had the elite prospering off of the downtrodden of Gotham with only Batman and a few others trying to right the ship. A little light helps, get too shiny and it's Schumacher-ville.
I have to disagree about No Man's Land, I personally found it a bit boring and like nothing was really happening. also, Bruce Wayne abandoning Gotham when it's this fucked seems very out of character for him, and is just overall a dumb idea that was clearly made to just make it more depressing.
but I think I agree with everything else you said.
My Batman is that beacon of hope in the dark of night, that no matter how dark Gotham is, it's knowing one person can make a difference. My Batman is the Batman who will comfort an abused child, or faces down the corrupt elite telling them their time is over. My Batman is not Crazy Steve from ASBAR!!!
I read a more recent Batman comic where Batman has to take Two-Face cross country, but Two-Face offers anyone who can free him tons of money, so they are constantly attacked by villains but most of the villains were only there for a couple of pages at most. I think one reason I don't read more comics is because they seem to be in a rush to get through action sequences and are more concerned with reintroducing obscure characters for what amounts to a name drop. There was nothing Gothic about the story and I guess Dent and Bruce knew each other since they were kids.
Wow. The art in "Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth" is drop dead gorgeous! I don't really buy western comics, but now I think I want my hands on that particular issue just for the art.
I really recommend it!
It is really good, the story was also kind of the basis of the Arkham Asylum game
@@lankyGigantic Cool!!! Thanks for the info
I don't know if this works for you guys, but if I may suggest an alternative in case you can't buy it physically, I highly recommend readcomiconline.to
It's the most complete site I know, collecting almost every series and one-shot from every franchise within DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, Image, and the likes. And it's free. Here's a link to the book:
readcomiconline.to/Comic/Batman-Arkham-Asylum-1989/Full?id=70351
A.A.:aSHOSE was first printed on high grade water resistance paper. Which is a good thing, I met a few teenagers that puked up into that comic story. The art and wording can be stomach turning. The Mad Hatter is someone who you do not want around your young teenage sister or daughter.
Batman went grimdark to the point of parody. I personally appreciate they dialed things back a touch.
Issue is they dialed it back too much. I'm fine with toning down the Grimdark since Gotham isn't even meant to he the worst city in the DC universe but now it feels too much like Metropolis
While I love the Dark Knight Trilogy, I think it permanently tainted the general audience perception of Batman. Yes he is a dark character at times, but I think the animated series understood that he should still be for kids. It's so sad that Batman movies (that aren't Lego) don't really feel like kids could watch it. You can tell a mature story without over the top violence and darkness
I can see where you're coming from. Many interpretations of Batman have been dark over the years though, and audiences have been warmed up to more serious interpretations; which is sadly why more kid friendly interpretations aren't as welcomed. The Animated Series is one that pulls off the balance of darkness and light elements.
Thankfully though The Lego Batman Movie did pretty well box-office and critics wise.
@Darth Pancake Studios Agreed. The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises are some of the more bleak and dark films in the series (Rises is the most bleak imo), but they do have optimism.
@Darth Pancake Studios I apologise. I didn't mean to refer to the ending; but to most of the movie where Bruce is a broken shell of his former self, he and the city fall to Bane and his revolution and Gotham nearly being destroyed. It does have hope and optimism nonetheless.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! This is exactly why I haven’t regularly read Batman comics for years. It’s exhausting watching Gotham get glammed up, the villains getting side-lined, and the sidekicks just overflowing and taking over the books. I want Batman brooding and taking on his villains, solving crime and living in a film noir world. You are on point about the horror element. From a fan who got into comics via Tim Burton’s 1989 film in theaters, thank you for articulating what I’ve struggled so long to put into words.
The sidekicks honestly NEVER overflow and take over the books. People act like every single member of the Batfamily past and present are all hanging out in the Batcave at any given time.
I think you sort of missed the point of Grant Morrisons point about Gotham.
I think the point he was trying to make is that the absolute state of the cities criminality and vileness would have a difficult time persisting under the guarding of Batman, his allies and a really moral Police commissioner.
The issue isn't that the fact that people still live there and that it doesn't make sense for people to live there, the issue is that Gotham could not remain an absolute den of scum and villainy if there were legitimately good people facing them down.
That doesn't mean they will ever truly BEAT crime. But it does mean that maybe portraying a place that is actually improved by good people trying to do hood things might be better than saying "yeah these good people in positions of power legitimately trying to improve things makes no meaningful difference."
That’s how I’ve been feeling lately with Batman, Gotham is completely stagnant so it’s cool that Batman gets to punch joker for the 170th iteration but Gotham is permanently stuck in hell unable to shake any of the villains that have been beaten hundreds of time. It feels weird to to say but focusing on a really tight setting like just the asylum feels fresher than subjecting the whole city to same prescription of apocalypse
If Gotham isn’t even gothic and moody what’s the point ? Look at how Gotham is portrayed in the 80s and 90s it was perfect but everything in this video from the modern comics makes Gotham so bland and no different than any normal city at night time and it doesn’t have any moody feel to it I love gotham in Tim burton’s movies and the animated series and Arkham city they all have that same feel that doesn’t exist in the modern comics at all and all the batfamily being present makes it seem like a lame sitcom the Arkham games had the batfamily but they used them correctly and they didn’t ruin the mood of batman and Gotham
@@Mohamad-m7md The problem is when people start asking "Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?" When that question is asked, it means that the writers have made Gotham too dark and irredeemable of a city to be believable for the audience.
@@evanbao93
It’s not supposed to be ultar realistic it’s still a comic book after all with plenty of unrealistic elements also people live in bad cities all the time in real life a lot of time people just don’t want to leave their homeland no matter the circumstances so it’s not even THAT unrealistic
@@Mohamad-m7md Kid. It's not about realism. It's about believability. The idea that Batman, a guy on par with the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman, is unable to make Gotham a better place and has allowed the Joker to murder thousands of people... breaks the suspension of disbelief.
Batman should be making Gotham a better place. That's his whole agenda. He is the symbol of hope.
If you stay in the grim dark for too long, you end getting shlock like The Dark Knight Strikes Again and All-Star Batman and Robin. Those comics made Batman into a broody, immature joke that people make fun of.
“You know I like my stories realistic.”
Says the guy who wrote The Invisibles, where the characters early in the series meditate to astral project themselves into the French Revolution as psychic ghosts to recruit the mental projection of Marquis de Sade, along the way end up inside of his book Salo, and once they return to present times take him to a fetish club where it is explained that he now has a physical form because his body died in the past and has caught up with his mental projection in the future basically making him born again.
I love Grant and I love The Invisibles, but he can fuck off with that excuse for ruining the world of Batman.
Didn't know Alan Moore had a UA-cam Account
Niklas Oxenstierna the wizard’s in all places at all times
Grant Morrison was JOKING! You've read his work, and you dont understand that?? Hes stated again and again that the whole idea of presenting superheros realistically is ridiculous. To quote Grant Morrison on Kevin Smith's Fatman on Batman podcast "Batman could never be real"
@@niclasneziru1854 lol, one of many alan moore pseudonyms?
its like he never been to like, Detroit, Chicago, NYC or Cali. You can HAVE the bright and vibrant shit and STILL show the underbelly. This is why I hate when foreign writers write American type cities cos most of them only ever been to the GOOD parts of the US. They know jack shit about what it's like living in a dangerous yet beautiful city. Like ya know, unless theyre like Brazilian or some shit. Then that makes sense.
Dude, the production value on these are insane! Mindblown, will def watch all your videos!
Thanks man, really glad you like them!
“Batman has to be dark and gritty”. Alright Zack Snyder. Did you read Scot Snyder’s run or Batman universe by Bendis? Batman works across multiple genres. Brave and the bold cartoon is another example of Batman being portrayed towards juveniles and still working. Remains true to the core.