I still don't like him in ultimate, he still a clone, just less than before I've waiting for nintendo add black shadow with his moveset and replace ganon with ones
@@RBH69agreed. Especially when he's still way too slow and he still has that godawful recovery. His alternate color palettes in Ultimate are also terrible. I really wish he got to keep his Twilight Princess look as some alternates. Yeah I'd like to see the cape flap and float.
@@RBH69 At least Ganon's moveset has nothing to due with F-zero. Also replacing Ganon with Blackshadow isn't going to work because F-zero characters have to be fast.
Yeah. I have no problem with Dark Samus being almost as similar as she is, but she should have had a beam attack (rather than an orb) or something, as she uses in Prime 3
Fun fact: Melee’s development time was actually 13 months, just barely over a year. It’s crazy how this game turned out so well with such an insanely short development time.
Just a little side note: Richter and Simon are echo fighters of the other, that is because the moveset that they have pulls moves from the game of Simon (castlevania II) and the games of Richter (castlevania Rondo of blod and castlevania simphony of the night), this doesn't change anything but is fun to think about it
I think Ganon's biggest disappointment isn't his normals. Imo, his normal attacks and even up special being copied from Falcon is perfectly fine. It's the lack of unique special moves that's the problem, because Ganondorf is known for not just being a powerhouse physically, but also a powerful magician.
to add pichu and young link to melee Sakurai have to go back in time and add pichu the baby version of pikachu and young link the young version of link and add dr mario to melee they just travel in altenetive universe
Even before Smash Ultimate, clones are actually more of a pro for characters' chances to be in Smash since they're easier to develop compared to more original fighters. So it is baffling clones are so hated when even if you don't do those characters, it won't really increase other characters' chances of joining Smash & the fact that clones have been fighting game staples since the beginning (Ken literally being the OG clone fighter). It also especially helps that clone characters can essentially be legacy characters to allow their character counterparts to have more updated movesets (Tekken Tag Tournament 2 is the best example of that as a good bunch of characters in the roster like Miharu, Sebastian, & Michelle use older movesets of Xiaoyu, Lili, & Julia while the said latter have updated movesets), so Dr. Mario can basically be a legacy character to allow Mario to have more freedom for more updated moves (literally a lot prefer using Mario Tornado/Dr. Tornado over F.L.U.D.D. even to this day). Same for the Links & Pichu. Honestly, the Melee clones actually have warranted reasons to be in Smash, with Smash Ultimate even moreso than before.
I'd say the exceptions are characters who had enough moveset potential that I'd rather wait for a later entry. I think they should've held off on Ganon until Brawl, because now he's forever tied to Falcon's moveset.
Yeah it would be great if they actually had distinctions other than like 2 moves, ganon has slowly differed from falcon but all three links have the same specials with only minor differences and nearly the same move set over all, Mario hasn’t changed much outside of down b, Luigi has tho so that’s good. And there are 4 of marth in the game, we do not need 4 marths.
It's funny how so many of the clone characters were hated early on, yet have since become such popular characters in the series thanks to Sakurai retweaking many of them.
Clones have always been my favorite. As a wee lad i mained doc and young link in melee because i liked how they were slightly different versions of other charscters
True, I think I was mainly trying to focus on the clones/echoes but yea Link getting BOTW moveset helped him be more original from Toon and Young Link.
@@ZachHonest I wish he was more different though. All of his moves are the same, except for his down B, his grab, and his boomerang changing back to old boomerang.
"Not many games were made in two years, especially one as iconic as Melee." Crash Bandicoot Warped, which was made in less than a year: "Am I a joke to you?"
@@GlitchanBlack That doesn't mean the game is more iconic. It just means it sold better on a console that sold 5 times more than the GameCube in the first place. Melee is still relevant today and was relevant since its release. Crash Warped was just the third mainline Crash game in the grand scheme of things.
As a fighting game fan, I never had any real distain for the clones in Smash as I think they make for fun rival battles. The only ones that bugged me a teeny bit were Ganondorf (for obvious reasons), Daisy & Dark Samus (the latter two are nearly palette swaps with nearly no differences). I don't mind Richter though since he and Simon are a combo of each other.
Simon and Richter do bother me because they are still just essentially color swaps. Even if they are combo of each other (And like not really. The only thing Richter brought to the table was the Up Special and the sliding Kick. And the Final Smash I guess.) they could had sprinkle in some differences. Like Dark Pit is literally a color swap in his own game with the same abilities as Pit and even he got property changes in two of his specials and a different Final Smash. Richter couldn't even get like a different angle on his Axe or something?
I love how Ken, the original clone fighter, ended up turning people's perception of clones from a negative to a positive. Because lets face it. The only reason the term "Echo Fighter" even exists is because of Ken and if was just plopped into the game with no further explanation, a lot of people would be angry. Especially since people have a crazy notion that 3rd party characters/slots are even more limited than the Nintendo IPs when it comes to being on the roster.
They should all be alternate costumes, or at least be accessed from the same slot as their original charcater. They are eating up slots on the roster for no reason.
in brawl makes me wonder what if dr mario will stay in brawl he gonna be the slightly better than mario dr mario will be míd tier again along side with king dedede and wario becuse mario is the worst character our ko power is random
Melee's clone characters are one of the very reasons I was interested to play Melee, back in the Brawl days, as a kid. While the main force was an original character being Mewtwo, as I was a big fan of him (still I am to this day! Just look my pfp), I was charmed seeing how Young Link, Dr. Mario and goddamn Pichu were playable, like hello?? I was also a fan of Majora's Mask so seeing Young Link was an instant eye catcher, and both doc and specially Pichu surprised me on how obscure of a pic they were, before watching the roster on a video back then, I wouldn't ever thought in my life Pichu could be a thing. And only because they were so obscure, I was so invested on trying them out. A few years later I've got my hands on the game (not anymore sadly), and I can say it was so fun finally trying these weird choices, alongside Mewtwo ofc. It felt so alien, yet so damn cool, coming from Brawl. And this is why I love clone characters. Some of them can pull up some crazy pick you wouldn't even think about if the stars align
I actually loved Ganondorf in Melee since even though it wasn't accurate to source material at all he just felt so satisfying to play. It's a shame no other version of him has managed to feel as good as he did in Melee.
How long have people been asking for Black Shadow as a Falcon clone to preserve Ganondorf's moveset in the case Ganon got his own set of specials, after all?
Ganondorf being a Falcon clone was literally ONLY fine in Melee, and it was because of development circumstances. Defenders of his Falcondorf moveset in following games are not proper Ganondorf fans. They should have reinvented Dorf from the ground up in Brawl. If you like Warlock Punch so goddamn much, then they should have just made Black Falcon a playable character and given him Melee Dorf's moveset.
@ayar2 If Ganondorf is just a moveset that has nothing to do with the character outside of Smash Bros to you, then you're shallow for his "aesthetic" and gatekeeping fans of the real character by defending it
@@quinnblackwood6397 I mean this IS SMASH BROS, not legend of zelda, you dont see me, an F-Zero fan, complaining about Captain Falcon being nothing like his original self, both in gameplay and personality,. I would been more critical if Ganondorf in his original games was nothing like his established lore and just was punching and kicking everyone in his boss fights.
@@ayar2 The difference is that Smash Bros is 99% of what makes Captain Falcon such a legendary character. People LOVE F-Zero, but Captain Falcon's story and character has little to nothing to do with its popularity. Nothing was lost through the changes Smash made, most of which were NECESSARY in the first place because he's from a racing game. Ganondorf himself is actually a big deal to Zelda fans.
I never viewed Pichu as a “joke character” in Melee, and I don’t think Sakurai ever explicitly referred to it as that. Pichu was confirmed to have been developed as the weakest fighter of the roster, but I don’t think “weak” and “joke” are mutually exclusive. Speaking casually, I think Pichu is very good in Melee. Competitive viability doesn’t determine everything about a character, but I think, even in the competitive setting, Pichu can still perform decently. Characters don’t need to be capable of winning a major in order to be worth something. Pichu is just as fast as Pikachu if not faster in some areas, and it being so small makes Pichu difficult to hit. Pichu’s attacks are actually deceptively powerful, and the self-damage gimmick isn’t that bad if you learn to properly balance usage between the electrical and physical moves. I think the self-damage gimmick is unique, because it gives Pichu more of an “advanced difficulty” feel. Novice players will dislike Pichu because of the self-damage, but skilled players who want a challenge can learn to master Pichu and work around its flaws. Hot take this may be, but I think Pichu is one of Smash’s best fighter inclusions. Most people will say “just choose Pikachu,” but I think there’s something special about Pichu’s fighter design that helps it stand out.
To add, it's great that the echoes made it in. However, given the length of time updates were being pushed out, there's no reason at the very least number tweaks could have happened to samus/dsamus and peach/daisy over time, for example Feature focus in trailers and most egregiously some animations are completely different--samus and dark samus have sometimes wildly different posing that it's weird that the characters are functionally identical to this day
Because of how whiny the Smash community is. I'm willing to bet there's an alternate universe out there where Melee had virtually no clone characters, maybe even some of the most "Holy sh*t! Picks like your James Bond, Banjo or Snake and people would still be complaining because there's no Ganondorf in Melee and would say "They should have at least made him a Captain Falcon clone"
roy also suffers a lot in melee due to the quick nature of changing his frame data from marth's resulting in a lot of his attacks just having wierd hitboxes, as the speed changes to his animations didn't line up with the changes to when his attacks went into their active/recovery periods, ending with a lot of his attacks having the hitboxes at weird places in the attack that tend to make them even stubbier than they'd seem the most iconic of these is probably dash attack, just due to the differences. marths is an amazing scoop and great tool, roy's... doesn't have an active hitbox while he's swinging the sword, instead active when its on the ground below him and going inactive as soon as he swings, leading to a lot of clips of him just cutting through nothing. most of the other clones in melee dodge this by having either generally simmilar speed or long active periods that make them work anyway (or possibly just it getting noticed and fixed in development) but it really gimps roy. its hard to be a brawler when your sweetspot hitboxes literally can never hit a opponent
@@survivorofthecurse717You forgot Green Hair Marth. Girl Green Hair Marth is the best one. And don’t forget about Red and Blue haired Marth, coming in the next smash game
I think the echo fighter concept is the perfect way to introduce more character representation without needing completely unique characters. Honestly characters like Doc, Lucas, Isabelle, etc should've been echoes. The only thing I'd want more from them is the ones like Dark Samus and Daisy to get actual gameplay tweaks.
@@SleepyBrady Yea I would agree, I know the line kinda gets blurred these days but Lucas/Ness kinda feel like Mario and Luigi levels of different. More of a semi-clone.
10:50 ness and lucas share a lot of moves but their properties and thus strategy are very different you don't see lucas hit pk fire into f smash as often. as a person who plays lucas often plaing ness actually messes me up the thing that get's me most is their pk thunder travels at different speeds. though that's just a skill issue on my end.
26:10 that makes a lot of sense I personally never really minded clones and was more in the anti fire emblem camp. I still think echo fighters should be more different from the original than just one attribute change. I think it largely unnecessary to have daisy be an echo rather than a skin the way she currently is and I share that feeling about dark samus and richter as well. I think dark pit is closer in having unique design he plays a differently from pit but shares a lot of the same attributes. I think it would be cool if echo's were designed to be unique like ken is or isabelle even though she isn't an echo. thoughts I had for how to accomplish this is daisy would have a unique neutral and up special, the turnip pull would have different odds similar to mr game and watch custom move in smash 4 extreme judge where the odds are reverse bell curve so daisy would pull both smiles and stich faces more often but less shocked turnips. the neutral special would be based on crystal smash she uses in mario strikers charged. the up special is based on her appearances in mario tennis series flower bed return where she jumps straight up and then floats in any direction for a bit. daisy would have a lot more animation reworks like f air, up air, n air, up tilt, up smash, f tilt. all of daisy's attacks would be worse at combo's with faster knockback scaling and instead daisy would be more scraping focused utilizing her mobility both on the ground and in the air to put opponents in disadvantage. stat changes would be faster ground speed, higher air mobility, heavier, 1-2 frames faster on most moves. richter has the moves from his game buffed and simon has the moves from his game buffed. richter's up B travels higher, his d tilt does more damage, his Down B should travels forward along the ground for a bit like in his games, his d air does higher knock back and gives him a bigger bounce. stat changes moves faster on the ground and has slightly better air mobility, lighter weight, most moves do less damage and have worse knockback. dark samus gets a float, neutral B charges a laser instead that does huge flinching damage like a weaker samus final smash the charge amount determines duration, side B shoots a bunch of little projectiles that flinch with low damage like lucario side B, down B turns into the morph ball and charges forward instead of placing a bomb. stats lighter, floatier, slower attacks by 2-3 frames, higher air mobility, faster ground speed, attacks do less knockback and hit stun but more damage. strategy is disrupting enemy movement without walling them out.
I think the rebranding worked bc it made casuals understand that clones were well…actual clones and they existed bc they were easy to make and not bc the devs were bias for certain characters (at least not the way people used to believe) still, i believe some echos could have been implemented better, dark samus and daisy being glorified skins was pretty stupid imo
I wish ganondorf had his moves more acurate but not his entire moveset changed the move that would stay the same with only slight stat differences or modifications would be side B, up tilt, the smash attacks, and down air. the rest of his moveset would attemp to be more accurate to his game appearances tennis neurtal B, peach's float, the down b would be the shock wave landing in OOT acting like bowser bomb with larger range, etc... #canonganon
Ngl, haven’t watched the whole vid yet, but Richter and Daisy are horrible clones. Richter’s only difference is that his holy water doesn’t have the fire property which matters in like 4 matchups and Daisy’s only difference is a minuscule difference in hurtbox size and idle animations. Even worse, Peach and Daisy used to have different turnips giving you a reason to actually prefer one over the other *and then Nintendo patched it out for literally no reason*. Some other gripes: Dark Samus only has a select few animation differences that, again, only matter in very specific situations. And the worst part? The assist trophy of it in Smash 4 had original moves that easily could’ve distinguished Samus and Dark Samus. Ganondorf doesn’t deserve to be a clone. He has literally 0 attachment to Falcon other than through Smash Bros and deserves an overhaul. Just give his current move set to Black Shadow if you want to spiritually keep the current version of Ganondorf in the game. The rest of the clones are fine enough, but the *seriously* missed the mark with Daisy and Richter.
some people dont really care about their character having a unique moveset and only want to play as them, and in a game with more than 80 characters things like that should be the least notable issue, you can even count the most egregious cases with just one hand. I play both samus and dark samus just because I like metroid, and Ill never bothered picking peach moveset if not for daisy.
@@ayar2 ok, but wouldn't it be SO much cooler if Dark Samus actually had Phazon attacks? Project EX Remix has a Dark Samus that feels like it was pulled straight out of Metroid Prime 2, meanwhile ultimate is just a retextured Samus. Might as well have just been the SA-X
@@thunderd7904 I, for one, am glad they're not too different, since I use to switch between the two regularly, and only had to do minimal adjustments to start playing. normally use samus against big characters and other zoners, while I use dark samus against smaller and/or faster characters.
This is how clones should actually be developed. But, honestly Smash Bros. needs to stop making all these corporate decisions with them by means of saving time in development. Some even have more source material which were completely disregarded. (Especially Ganondorf.)
Clones have always been developed these ways since Street Fighter. If anything, they're extremely inoffensive & given how less effort they take, won't really change anything. For sure, Ganondorf, the Links, & Daisy do deserve to have a more unique moveset, but having clones are fine.
@@robertrainford6754 Again, clones are inoffensive & merely help inflate rosters. You ain't getting Waluigi & Dante even if you don't have Dr. Mario & Richter
@@psiforce8342 mortal kombat is a awful fighting game considering it took them 5 games before any of the cast were different, and is only liked because of its gore.
People need to get over themselves in terms of the clones thing in general. Those that hate them. I think they add an extra layer of customization and new playstyles with similar movesets and introduce the player to newer faces that otherwise wouldve taken longer to add or not have been integrated altogether
I always liked having clones as for some of them it’s either they wouldn’t have been in Smash or they made it into Smash. I like how you pretty much covered every type of clone character, great video!
Ganondorf needs to have all new specials in the next game, give him dead man's volley, give him a float ability like from ocarina of time, just give him something new
@@mohammadalhusaini810 ya black shadow would be cool addition to the game, heck I'm surprised they haven't thought of adding him in yet, but that's probably because they haven't done anything with f zero in a long time
I hope future echos will be like chrom, dark Samus and daisy feel like they should have been alternate skins, would have loved to see a new attack or two for them 😿
While I've never personally played a Zelda game, I've watched my different friends and UA-camrs do play through and the argument on Ganondorf's moveset is...really dumb because that is how he fights. At best just give him a peach float and that yellow ball that bounces back. The sword oddly seems more outta left field. Like Sonic, people over complain about his moveset when really he just needs a boost side special. I also don't understand how people view Ganondorf as "low tier" he got buffed so much in Ultimate him (and Link) are S-Tier.
Wario should have been in Melee, then he wouldn't be fart-bikeman. And Ganondorf wouldn't be a bad Falcon... But yeah whatever, probably for the best for money I guess.
This is probably because I: A.) Don't really play Zelda games that much B.) Play as Ganon in Smash anyway But I like Ganon how he is. Falcon is already really cool, and having a Falcon that can kill at 30 with Falcon Kick is even cooler. Sure Black Shadow would probably be the ideal, but I gotta take what I can get here.
Its funny that all the clone characters of melee got better over the iterations, but Ganondorf had a huge dip from melee to brawl and was barely able to be better by ultimate, but still bottom 1
The fans determine how the tier list is without complete objectivity. Look at brawl for example Link is placed as the 4th worst character. Link in this game is nearly not as bad as what is shown on the tier list. It is inaccurate so is Ganons spot. Even though brawl Ganon is the weakest of the Ganons. In brawl he still had access to thunderstorming. Meaning he can just repeatedly autocancel his down airs for combos. Also Ganons dash attack in brawl is a ko move by itself. Regardless of where the enemy is on the stage the dash attack will send Ganon's opponent upwards. Which can at times overtake other lower tier fighters in a match. This overexaggerated badness of Link and Ganon in Brawl is because they lost their biggest tool kits between games. Link lost his very strong up b and Ganon lost his very strong wizards foot. As for Ganon in ultimate hes once again exaggerated as being very bad. Ganondorf is not the worst character. But its also true that he is a character that has less rewarding moves as the other heavy characters. Even Ganon's signature weight has been lessened in Ultimate. Zelda is also not nearly as bas as she is placed in brawl. Her upsmash alone does like 20% has a big hit box and can be chained repeatedly. Zelda can also spam the dins fire savagely in Brawl. The dins fire is way more rewarding in brawl than in later games and in meele.
@@TheBlueBlur100, as a doc main I can confirm he was not in brawl, he was supposed to be in brawl along with Mewtwo and Roy, but got scrapped very late after multiple delays, tho their code names are listed in the games files i’ve seen a few people make that mistake, it’s me it’s really confusing, and kind of annoying, have these people even played brawl?
Lucina and Marth play notably different in Ultimate. Lucina's combo game is much stronger, and she's able to damage opponents much more easily, while Marth has to rely on spacing out his opponents due to his poor sour spots. Aside from Ryu and Ken, Lucina and Marth are the most distinct fighter/echo combo in the roster. Richter on the other hand...
Young Link is my personal least favorite character in the game, he has incredible moveset potential from Majora's mask. But he is literally a carbon copy of Old Link, except for fire arrows. So he has a more spammy, better moveset than original Link. And his moveset represents nothing new, they even gave him a lame copy and paste final smash instead of a new one like every other melee clone got (Pichu has the same one but it does damage to itself, which is a small change but more than Young Link got) Young Link is the worst designed character in the game in my opinion.
@@LinktheCommunistWaifu they went with the legacy moveset route, which works with Link having been changed to match Breath of the Wild, the only crime from Young Link's design is his Final Smash that should've been Fierce Diety Link. Otherwise, Young Link is doing fine and helps that he is considered the best of the 3 Links in Smash Ultimate
@@psiforce8342 See, three problem with going the legacy route is that regular Link barely got changed, only changing hours bombs and his grab. But all the legacy moves that Young Link has safe with Toon Link. So you see the issue. But Young Link is the best out of them all, I just wish they could have changed ONE thing with him.
@@psiforce8342 But having the same final smash copy and paste final smash is a crime and shouldn't be in the game. There aren't a lot copy and paste final Smashes. And all the the melee characters have different final Smashes. Even Pichu's final smash is different, with going taking damage during it, which is more of a change than Young Link had. Marth and Lucina are the only characters who have the same final smash, but they are echo fighters. Young Link and Toon Link aren't echo fighters. Even other echo fighters have different final Smashes
Ganondorf was done dirty. Especially in Brawl!
Bro he is the dirty 😭
I still don't like him in ultimate, he still a clone, just less than before
I've waiting for nintendo add black shadow with his moveset and replace ganon with ones
@@RBH69agreed. Especially when he's still way too slow and he still has that godawful recovery. His alternate color palettes in Ultimate are also terrible. I really wish he got to keep his Twilight Princess look as some alternates. Yeah I'd like to see the cape flap and float.
As a captain falcon main, I always felt bad for Gannon mains cause you're just a worse version of our character every game 😂
@@RBH69 At least Ganon's moveset has nothing to due with F-zero. Also replacing Ganon with Blackshadow isn't going to work because F-zero characters have to be fast.
Dark Samus was an assist trophy in Smash 4 and they could've used some of her moves from 4 put into Ultimate.
That's what I been thinking ever since she was first revealed.
She literally had a perfect move for a down smash
Yeah. I have no problem with Dark Samus being almost as similar as she is, but she should have had a beam attack (rather than an orb) or something, as she uses in Prime 3
@@WreckItRolfe What would be the downside for the beam compared to original Samus??
i didn't know isabelle was a low tier character i thought it was a great character
Fun fact: Melee’s development time was actually 13 months, just barely over a year. It’s crazy how this game turned out so well with such an insanely short development time.
I think that’s part of the beauty of the game.
I don't think it turned out as well as the fanboys want you to think
@@TheRealBatabiithe bugs make melee, well, melee
Just a little side note: Richter and Simon are echo fighters of the other, that is because the moveset that they have pulls moves from the game of Simon (castlevania II) and the games of Richter (castlevania Rondo of blod and castlevania simphony of the night), this doesn't change anything but is fun to think about it
4:00 oh no, 2 years is mercy, this game had about 13 months of development.
Like seriously 2years you can get lots more done unlike 13months
I think Ganon's biggest disappointment isn't his normals. Imo, his normal attacks and even up special being copied from Falcon is perfectly fine. It's the lack of unique special moves that's the problem, because Ganondorf is known for not just being a powerhouse physically, but also a powerful magician.
I think Ganon was nerfed for balance reasons??
to add pichu and young link to melee Sakurai have to go back in time and add pichu the baby version of pikachu and young link the young version of link and add dr mario to melee they just travel in altenetive universe
Even before Smash Ultimate, clones are actually more of a pro for characters' chances to be in Smash since they're easier to develop compared to more original fighters. So it is baffling clones are so hated when even if you don't do those characters, it won't really increase other characters' chances of joining Smash & the fact that clones have been fighting game staples since the beginning (Ken literally being the OG clone fighter).
It also especially helps that clone characters can essentially be legacy characters to allow their character counterparts to have more updated movesets (Tekken Tag Tournament 2 is the best example of that as a good bunch of characters in the roster like Miharu, Sebastian, & Michelle use older movesets of Xiaoyu, Lili, & Julia while the said latter have updated movesets), so Dr. Mario can basically be a legacy character to allow Mario to have more freedom for more updated moves (literally a lot prefer using Mario Tornado/Dr. Tornado over F.L.U.D.D. even to this day). Same for the Links & Pichu. Honestly, the Melee clones actually have warranted reasons to be in Smash, with Smash Ultimate even moreso than before.
I'd say the exceptions are characters who had enough moveset potential that I'd rather wait for a later entry. I think they should've held off on Ganon until Brawl, because now he's forever tied to Falcon's moveset.
Yeah it would be great if they actually had distinctions other than like 2 moves, ganon has slowly differed from falcon but all three links have the same specials with only minor differences and nearly the same move set over all, Mario hasn’t changed much outside of down b, Luigi has tho so that’s good. And there are 4 of marth in the game, we do not need 4 marths.
Yeah, there's no way Daisy or Dark Samus would have made it into Ultimate if they weren't clones
It's funny how so many of the clone characters were hated early on, yet have since become such popular characters in the series thanks to Sakurai retweaking many of them.
Your clones are very impressive. You must be very proud.
2:00 no fucking WAY that hit
Clones have always been my favorite. As a wee lad i mained doc and young link in melee because i liked how they were slightly different versions of other charscters
took melee 13 months to be made :o
I'm surprised that Link's retooling didn't come up in this video. Clear example of the OG character changing while the clone doesn't.
yeah
Same case for Dr. Mario, Pichu, & Young Link (though Dr. Mario & Young Link deserve a way more unique Final Smash)
True, I think I was mainly trying to focus on the clones/echoes but yea Link getting BOTW moveset helped him be more original from Toon and Young Link.
@@ZachHonest I wish he was more different though. All of his moves are the same, except for his down B, his grab, and his boomerang changing back to old boomerang.
"Not many games were made in two years, especially one as iconic as Melee."
Crash Bandicoot Warped, which was made in less than a year: "Am I a joke to you?"
Melee was made in just over a year, 13 months. Halo 2 was like 10-12 months, GTA Vice City was 9 months, and Majora's Mask was 11 months.
1. The statement doesn't invalidate Crash Warped. at all.
2. Crash Warped is objectively not as iconic as Melee.
@@Magnet_ChaosCrash 3 sold 7.13 million copies whereas SSBM sold .04 less. I feel like that says enough about Warped’s popularity.
@@GlitchanBlack That doesn't mean the game is more iconic. It just means it sold better on a console that sold 5 times more than the GameCube in the first place.
Melee is still relevant today and was relevant since its release.
Crash Warped was just the third mainline Crash game in the grand scheme of things.
Thanks!
Yo major love for that, thank you!
@@ZachHonest you’re welcome!
As a fighting game fan, I never had any real distain for the clones in Smash as I think they make for fun rival battles.
The only ones that bugged me a teeny bit were Ganondorf (for obvious reasons), Daisy & Dark Samus (the latter two are nearly palette swaps with nearly no differences). I don't mind Richter though since he and Simon are a combo of each other.
Simon and Richter do bother me because they are still just essentially color swaps. Even if they are combo of each other (And like not really. The only thing Richter brought to the table was the Up Special and the sliding Kick. And the Final Smash I guess.) they could had sprinkle in some differences.
Like Dark Pit is literally a color swap in his own game with the same abilities as Pit and even he got property changes in two of his specials and a different Final Smash.
Richter couldn't even get like a different angle on his Axe or something?
I love how Ken, the original clone fighter, ended up turning people's perception of clones from a negative to a positive.
Because lets face it. The only reason the term "Echo Fighter" even exists is because of Ken and if was just plopped into the game with no further explanation, a lot of people would be angry. Especially since people have a crazy notion that 3rd party characters/slots are even more limited than the Nintendo IPs when it comes to being on the roster.
Now they still need to fix their Echo Fighters.
Daisy especially since she exactly the same
They should all be alternate costumes, or at least be accessed from the same slot as their original charcater. They are eating up slots on the roster for no reason.
We Stan Dr Mario in this house
Yeah!
in brawl makes me wonder what if dr mario will stay in brawl he gonna be the slightly better than mario dr mario will be míd tier again along side with king dedede and wario becuse mario is the worst character our ko power is random
Melee's clone characters are one of the very reasons I was interested to play Melee, back in the Brawl days, as a kid.
While the main force was an original character being Mewtwo, as I was a big fan of him (still I am to this day! Just look my pfp), I was charmed seeing how Young Link, Dr. Mario and goddamn Pichu were playable, like hello?? I was also a fan of Majora's Mask so seeing Young Link was an instant eye catcher, and both doc and specially Pichu surprised me on how obscure of a pic they were, before watching the roster on a video back then, I wouldn't ever thought in my life Pichu could be a thing. And only because they were so obscure, I was so invested on trying them out.
A few years later I've got my hands on the game (not anymore sadly), and I can say it was so fun finally trying these weird choices, alongside Mewtwo ofc. It felt so alien, yet so damn cool, coming from Brawl.
And this is why I love clone characters. Some of them can pull up some crazy pick you wouldn't even think about if the stars align
I actually loved Ganondorf in Melee since even though it wasn't accurate to source material at all he just felt so satisfying to play. It's a shame no other version of him has managed to feel as good as he did in Melee.
Noooooo, Driftveil City theme again 😭😭😭
How long have people been asking for Black Shadow as a Falcon clone to preserve Ganondorf's moveset in the case Ganon got his own set of specials, after all?
Ganondorf being a Falcon clone was literally ONLY fine in Melee, and it was because of development circumstances. Defenders of his Falcondorf moveset in following games are not proper Ganondorf fans. They should have reinvented Dorf from the ground up in Brawl. If you like Warlock Punch so goddamn much, then they should have just made Black Falcon a playable character and given him Melee Dorf's moveset.
oh look, a gatekeeeper, and not the one from Garreg Mach.
@ayar2 If Ganondorf is just a moveset that has nothing to do with the character outside of Smash Bros to you, then you're shallow for his "aesthetic" and gatekeeping fans of the real character by defending it
@@quinnblackwood6397 I mean this IS SMASH BROS, not legend of zelda, you dont see me, an F-Zero fan, complaining about Captain Falcon being nothing like his original self, both in gameplay and personality,. I would been more critical if Ganondorf in his original games was nothing like his established lore and just was punching and kicking everyone in his boss fights.
@@ayar2 The difference is that Smash Bros is 99% of what makes Captain Falcon such a legendary character. People LOVE F-Zero, but Captain Falcon's story and character has little to nothing to do with its popularity. Nothing was lost through the changes Smash made, most of which were NECESSARY in the first place because he's from a racing game. Ganondorf himself is actually a big deal to Zelda fans.
I never viewed Pichu as a “joke character” in Melee, and I don’t think Sakurai ever explicitly referred to it as that. Pichu was confirmed to have been developed as the weakest fighter of the roster, but I don’t think “weak” and “joke” are mutually exclusive.
Speaking casually, I think Pichu is very good in Melee. Competitive viability doesn’t determine everything about a character, but I think, even in the competitive setting, Pichu can still perform decently. Characters don’t need to be capable of winning a major in order to be worth something.
Pichu is just as fast as Pikachu if not faster in some areas, and it being so small makes Pichu difficult to hit. Pichu’s attacks are actually deceptively powerful, and the self-damage gimmick isn’t that bad if you learn to properly balance usage between the electrical and physical moves. I think the self-damage gimmick is unique, because it gives Pichu more of an “advanced difficulty” feel. Novice players will dislike Pichu because of the self-damage, but skilled players who want a challenge can learn to master Pichu and work around its flaws.
Hot take this may be, but I think Pichu is one of Smash’s best fighter inclusions. Most people will say “just choose Pikachu,” but I think there’s something special about Pichu’s fighter design that helps it stand out.
To add, it's great that the echoes made it in. However, given the length of time updates were being pushed out, there's no reason at the very least number tweaks could have happened to samus/dsamus and peach/daisy over time, for example
Feature focus in trailers and most egregiously some animations are completely different--samus and dark samus have sometimes wildly different posing that it's weird that the characters are functionally identical to this day
Inkling echo fighter could be the rival Octolings
Because of how whiny the Smash community is. I'm willing to bet there's an alternate universe out there where Melee had virtually no clone characters, maybe even some of the most "Holy sh*t! Picks like your James Bond, Banjo or Snake and people would still be complaining because there's no Ganondorf in Melee and would say "They should have at least made him a Captain Falcon clone"
roy also suffers a lot in melee due to the quick nature of changing his frame data from marth's resulting in a lot of his attacks just having wierd hitboxes, as the speed changes to his animations didn't line up with the changes to when his attacks went into their active/recovery periods, ending with a lot of his attacks having the hitboxes at weird places in the attack that tend to make them even stubbier than they'd seem
the most iconic of these is probably dash attack, just due to the differences. marths is an amazing scoop and great tool, roy's... doesn't have an active hitbox while he's swinging the sword, instead active when its on the ground below him and going inactive as soon as he swings, leading to a lot of clips of him just cutting through nothing.
most of the other clones in melee dodge this by having either generally simmilar speed or long active periods that make them work anyway (or possibly just it getting noticed and fixed in development) but it really gimps roy. its hard to be a brawler when your sweetspot hitboxes literally can never hit a opponent
mario and link: we have two clone characters
marth: i have three clone characters
There's Marth, Fire Marth, Girl Marth, Girl Marth's father, Beeg Marth, Magical Marth, and Dragon Marth
@@survivorofthecurse717 i just say chrom lucina and roy the others have unique moveset and final smash
@@glauciarochelle they do now. Doesn't mean they didn't back then
@@survivorofthecurse717 My favorite Marth is Book Marth!
@@survivorofthecurse717You forgot Green Hair Marth. Girl Green Hair Marth is the best one. And don’t forget about Red and Blue haired Marth, coming in the next smash game
I think the echo fighter concept is the perfect way to introduce more character representation without needing completely unique characters. Honestly characters like Doc, Lucas, Isabelle, etc should've been echoes. The only thing I'd want more from them is the ones like Dark Samus and Daisy to get actual gameplay tweaks.
Lucas? Echo?? What? They're almost nothing alike aside from maybe some specials.
A lot of Lucas's moves are very different
I honestly wouldn't mind if Doc was a costume for Mario, and for the 2 to have their movesets combined.
@@SleepyBrady Yea I would agree, I know the line kinda gets blurred these days but Lucas/Ness kinda feel like Mario and Luigi levels of different. More of a semi-clone.
Doc was my favorite in Melee
ok now it’s time for Dr. Luigi
Legend says that Ganondorf got done dirty by being a worse falcon
4:13 Only 2 years? More like 13 months, big difference,
4:00 I thought melee was made in 13 months which made its bugs famous
My favorite Clone is Dishonest Content
10:50 ness and lucas share a lot of moves but their properties and thus strategy are very different you don't see lucas hit pk fire into f smash as often. as a person who plays lucas often plaing ness actually messes me up the thing that get's me most is their pk thunder travels at different speeds. though that's just a skill issue on my end.
26:10 that makes a lot of sense I personally never really minded clones and was more in the anti fire emblem camp. I still think echo fighters should be more different from the original than just one attribute change. I think it largely unnecessary to have daisy be an echo rather than a skin the way she currently is and I share that feeling about dark samus and richter as well. I think dark pit is closer in having unique design he plays a differently from pit but shares a lot of the same attributes. I think it would be cool if echo's were designed to be unique like ken is or isabelle even though she isn't an echo.
thoughts I had for how to accomplish this is daisy would have a unique neutral and up special, the turnip pull would have different odds similar to mr game and watch custom move in smash 4 extreme judge where the odds are reverse bell curve so daisy would pull both smiles and stich faces more often but less shocked turnips. the neutral special would be based on crystal smash she uses in mario strikers charged. the up special is based on her appearances in mario tennis series flower bed return where she jumps straight up and then floats in any direction for a bit. daisy would have a lot more animation reworks like f air, up air, n air, up tilt, up smash, f tilt. all of daisy's attacks would be worse at combo's with faster knockback scaling and instead daisy would be more scraping focused utilizing her mobility both on the ground and in the air to put opponents in disadvantage. stat changes would be faster ground speed, higher air mobility, heavier, 1-2 frames faster on most moves.
richter has the moves from his game buffed and simon has the moves from his game buffed. richter's up B travels higher, his d tilt does more damage, his Down B should travels forward along the ground for a bit like in his games, his d air does higher knock back and gives him a bigger bounce. stat changes moves faster on the ground and has slightly better air mobility, lighter weight, most moves do less damage and have worse knockback.
dark samus gets a float, neutral B charges a laser instead that does huge flinching damage like a weaker samus final smash the charge amount determines duration, side B shoots a bunch of little projectiles that flinch with low damage like lucario side B, down B turns into the morph ball and charges forward instead of placing a bomb. stats lighter, floatier, slower attacks by 2-3 frames, higher air mobility, faster ground speed, attacks do less knockback and hit stun but more damage. strategy is disrupting enemy movement without walling them out.
0:05 And that honor of being the most disliked characters now goes to the Fire Emblem cast (jk I love fire emblem)
Whats the song at 2:11? I recognize but can’t remember!!
It’s from a Pokémon game, I don’t know which one tho
I will forever be a doctor mario defender
Can I join too
Is that an In God We Must t-shirt?
it might be I can't remember
“2 years” is putting it lightly, try THIRTEEN MONTHS
I think the rebranding worked bc it made casuals understand that clones were well…actual clones and they existed bc they were easy to make and not bc the devs were bias for certain characters (at least not the way people used to believe)
still, i believe some echos could have been implemented better, dark samus and daisy being glorified skins was pretty stupid imo
No more comment wars
I wish ganondorf had his moves more acurate but not his entire moveset changed the move that would stay the same with only slight stat differences or modifications would be side B, up tilt, the smash attacks, and down air. the rest of his moveset would attemp to be more accurate to his game appearances tennis neurtal B, peach's float, the down b would be the shock wave landing in OOT acting like bowser bomb with larger range, etc...
#canonganon
Ngl, haven’t watched the whole vid yet, but Richter and Daisy are horrible clones. Richter’s only difference is that his holy water doesn’t have the fire property which matters in like 4 matchups and Daisy’s only difference is a minuscule difference in hurtbox size and idle animations. Even worse, Peach and Daisy used to have different turnips giving you a reason to actually prefer one over the other *and then Nintendo patched it out for literally no reason*.
Some other gripes: Dark Samus only has a select few animation differences that, again, only matter in very specific situations. And the worst part? The assist trophy of it in Smash 4 had original moves that easily could’ve distinguished Samus and Dark Samus.
Ganondorf doesn’t deserve to be a clone. He has literally 0 attachment to Falcon other than through Smash Bros and deserves an overhaul. Just give his current move set to Black Shadow if you want to spiritually keep the current version of Ganondorf in the game.
The rest of the clones are fine enough, but the *seriously* missed the mark with Daisy and Richter.
some people dont really care about their character having a unique moveset and only want to play as them, and in a game with more than 80 characters things like that should be the least notable issue, you can even count the most egregious cases with just one hand. I play both samus and dark samus just because I like metroid, and Ill never bothered picking peach moveset if not for daisy.
@@ayar2 ok, but wouldn't it be SO much cooler if Dark Samus actually had Phazon attacks? Project EX Remix has a Dark Samus that feels like it was pulled straight out of Metroid Prime 2, meanwhile ultimate is just a retextured Samus. Might as well have just been the SA-X
@@thunderd7904 I, for one, am glad they're not too different, since I use to switch between the two regularly, and only had to do minimal adjustments to start playing. normally use samus against big characters and other zoners, while I use dark samus against smaller and/or faster characters.
When are we getting Shadow, Sakurai???
forget shadow, what about tails, the original sidekick.
Echo who's there
The newest clones from ultimate barely have any changes
This is how clones should actually be developed. But, honestly Smash Bros. needs to stop making all these corporate decisions with them by means of saving time in development. Some even have more source material which were completely disregarded. (Especially Ganondorf.)
Clones have always been developed these ways since Street Fighter. If anything, they're extremely inoffensive & given how less effort they take, won't really change anything. For sure, Ganondorf, the Links, & Daisy do deserve to have a more unique moveset, but having clones are fine.
@@psiforce8342it’s a problem in that game to. Clones shouldn’t be in games period don’t defend the lazy practice.
@@robertrainford6754 Again, clones are inoffensive & merely help inflate rosters.
You ain't getting Waluigi & Dante even if you don't have Dr. Mario & Richter
@@robertrainford6754 Mortal Kombat also has clones (the ninjas) & even there hasn't been any issue at all having them in the game.
@@psiforce8342 mortal kombat is a awful fighting game considering it took them 5 games before any of the cast were different, and is only liked because of its gore.
YOYO wake up babe a banger vid just dropped 😎.
How did dark pit get in smash 4 but wolf didn’t?
People need to get over themselves in terms of the clones thing in general. Those that hate them. I think they add an extra layer of customization and new playstyles with similar movesets and introduce the player to newer faces that otherwise wouldve taken longer to add or not have been integrated altogether
I always liked having clones as for some of them it’s either they wouldn’t have been in Smash or they made it into Smash. I like how you pretty much covered every type of clone character, great video!
AYYYY Honest content!
Ganondorf needs to have all new specials in the next game, give him dead man's volley, give him a float ability like from ocarina of time, just give him something new
And for the people who enjoy his current move set they could throw it the f zero guy that looks like batman
@@mohammadalhusaini810 ya black shadow would be cool addition to the game, heck I'm surprised they haven't thought of adding him in yet, but that's probably because they haven't done anything with f zero in a long time
I hope future echos will be like chrom, dark Samus and daisy feel like they should have been alternate skins, would have loved to see a new attack or two for them 😿
True, I agree with that.
They should be more like ken, he the best designed echo fighter
daisy she should to have the super mario bros wonder theme moveset
While I've never personally played a Zelda game, I've watched my different friends and UA-camrs do play through and the argument on Ganondorf's moveset is...really dumb because that is how he fights. At best just give him a peach float and that yellow ball that bounces back. The sword oddly seems more outta left field. Like Sonic, people over complain about his moveset when really he just needs a boost side special. I also don't understand how people view Ganondorf as "low tier" he got buffed so much in Ultimate him (and Link) are S-Tier.
For jigglypuff I think it was confirmed it was picked because they could reuse kirby animations
They should put Donnel in Smash 6
Alph still being a skin makes no fucking sense because the other Echo are just glorified Skins.
And I also lost my preferred Olimar colors.
I wish they were clones so Olimar got some his old colors back, and Alph would use Rock Pikmin
Not really. They made them even less unique than previous entries, but just put a label on them.
Wario should have been in Melee, then he wouldn't be fart-bikeman. And Ganondorf wouldn't be a bad Falcon...
But yeah whatever, probably for the best for money I guess.
This is probably because I:
A.) Don't really play Zelda games that much
B.) Play as Ganon in Smash anyway
But I like Ganon how he is. Falcon is already really cool, and having a Falcon that can kill at 30 with Falcon Kick is even cooler. Sure Black Shadow would probably be the ideal, but I gotta take what I can get here.
current ganon is pure hype, just watch Major.
Melee almost ended Sakura's marriage too.
What why falcon
Atp we gotta bully nintendo to add more sonic characters and material
I love Awakening. And I love Fates no matter what anyone says 😖!
I know hardcore FE Fans probably hate awakening, but I love its character cast, and its the FE game that got me back into Fire Emblem.
Its funny that all the clone characters of melee got better over the iterations, but Ganondorf had a huge dip from melee to brawl and was barely able to be better by ultimate, but still bottom 1
The fans determine how the tier list is without complete objectivity. Look at brawl for example Link is placed as the 4th worst character. Link in this game is nearly not as bad as what is shown on the tier list. It is inaccurate so is Ganons spot. Even though brawl Ganon is the weakest of the Ganons. In brawl he still had access to thunderstorming. Meaning he can just repeatedly autocancel his down airs for combos. Also Ganons dash attack in brawl is a ko move by itself. Regardless of where the enemy is on the stage the dash attack will send Ganon's opponent upwards. Which can at times overtake other lower tier fighters in a match. This overexaggerated badness of Link and Ganon in Brawl is because they lost their biggest tool kits between games. Link lost his very strong up b and Ganon lost his very strong wizards foot. As for Ganon in ultimate hes once again exaggerated as being very bad. Ganondorf is not the worst character. But its also true that he is a character that has less rewarding moves as the other heavy characters. Even Ganon's signature weight has been lessened in Ultimate. Zelda is also not nearly as bas as she is placed in brawl. Her upsmash alone does like 20% has a big hit box and can be chained repeatedly. Zelda can also spam the dins fire savagely in Brawl. The dins fire is way more rewarding in brawl than in later games and in meele.
They went the completely wrong way with Dr Mario.
He should have felt like he was from Melee, not Brawl.
Where is that said?
Dr. Mario was in Brawl?
@@TheBlueBlur100, as a doc main I can confirm he was not in brawl, he was supposed to be in brawl along with Mewtwo and Roy, but got scrapped very late after multiple delays, tho their code names are listed in the games files
i’ve seen a few people make that mistake, it’s me it’s really confusing, and kind of annoying, have these people even played brawl?
Sakurai just change a little bit the moves animation and maybe some specials we don't need more glorified skins like daisy or lucina😂
Lucina and Marth play notably different in Ultimate.
Lucina's combo game is much stronger, and she's able to damage opponents much more easily, while Marth has to rely on spacing out his opponents due to his poor sour spots.
Aside from Ryu and Ken, Lucina and Marth are the most distinct fighter/echo combo in the roster.
Richter on the other hand...
@@LechgangRichter and Simon took tools from each other, Sakurai himself said that Simon could be an Echo of Richter.
Still they have the same moves and animations and specials and final smash they really unfun in a casual perspective.
@@gabrielmarchena1755 they're extremely inoffensive
People still have fun playing Daisy even though she plays the same as Peach
Melee ganondorf should've been Black Shadow from F-zero 😔
PMEX has you covered LOL
or it Will be mach rider becuse Both are fastest characters
*melee was made in 13 months*
brawl wolf is obviously a clone, just look at his clunky animations
Why do you keep calling Orochi Mario "doc"
Young Link is my personal least favorite character in the game, he has incredible moveset potential from Majora's mask. But he is literally a carbon copy of Old Link, except for fire arrows. So he has a more spammy, better moveset than original Link. And his moveset represents nothing new, they even gave him a lame copy and paste final smash instead of a new one like every other melee clone got (Pichu has the same one but it does damage to itself, which is a small change but more than Young Link got) Young Link is the worst designed character in the game in my opinion.
Young Link is fine
Ganondorf, Sonic, Little Mac, Min Min, & Steve are miles worse
@@psiforce8342 Yeah, I guess those characters are worse. But I don't like how they went about designing young Link
@@LinktheCommunistWaifu they went with the legacy moveset route, which works with Link having been changed to match Breath of the Wild, the only crime from Young Link's design is his Final Smash that should've been Fierce Diety Link. Otherwise, Young Link is doing fine and helps that he is considered the best of the 3 Links in Smash Ultimate
@@psiforce8342 See, three problem with going the legacy route is that regular Link barely got changed, only changing hours bombs and his grab. But all the legacy moves that Young Link has safe with Toon Link. So you see the issue. But Young Link is the best out of them all, I just wish they could have changed ONE thing with him.
@@psiforce8342 But having the same final smash copy and paste final smash is a crime and shouldn't be in the game. There aren't a lot copy and paste final Smashes. And all the the melee characters have different final Smashes. Even Pichu's final smash is different, with going taking damage during it, which is more of a change than Young Link had. Marth and Lucina are the only characters who have the same final smash, but they are echo fighters. Young Link and Toon Link aren't echo fighters. Even other echo fighters have different final Smashes
You sound drunk lol
There going to be echoes in every smash bros game. Anyone who has a problem whit it need to grow up.