Destiny Gets Grilled By The Ultimate Liberal
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- Опубліковано 10 тра 2024
- Last night on Destiny ft. Rose Wrist
Destiny channel ► / destiny
Bestiny channel ► / bestiny
Twitter ► / theomniliberal
DGG ►www.destiny.gg/bigscreen
#Destiny
#Politics
#Debate
Dr K Explains His Side Of The Dr Mike Debate
►ua-cam.com/video/5H9tX_tQTs4/v-deo.html
Damn didnt even recognize rose wrist voice
Is it actually HIM?!? It sounds like him!!!
I heard that voice and had to hurry and see if it was him! I’m a Audio vod listener. Was white the surprise
This is definitely an area of philosophy that Destiny could improve on, glad he's getting pushback.
It’s impossible to have any epistemic justification as a secularist, so he can’t improve unless he changes his worldview
@@brendanmassie9586Your foundation is ultimately equally circular. Theists just make unjustified appeals to exceptions for their axioms.
@@maxse6221 no it isn’t. Theists justify their epistemology through transcendental argumentation. Secularists skipped that part of philosophy and just borrow from a theistic worldview.
@@maxse6221nah. Just atheist cope.
@@giovalladares1022corny
After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, Britain did not 'have the right to do whatever they wanted with the territory'- it was set up as a 'mandate', and not a 'colony'. The stated aim of a mandate was to 'prepare a region for independence in the near future.' The same was done in territories like German east Africa, Syria, Cameroon, and Togo.
This definition separates it from a colony, which was 'imperial administration for the protection and proliferation of British Settler and Commercial interest in a region.'
Most mandates were run at a huge lost to France and Britain, there was very little corporate interest and the level of immigration into these regions were practically non-existent.
This is important to clarify. Thanks for reading!
Which is what they did. Even the partition plan had that goal in mind.
They put in very sympathetic governments to to their governments it may have not been a colony but it was established with their interests in mind. To say that they didn’t have discretion on who or what went down in any of these places is a naive at best and subversive at worst.
@@radchad992 this is true, but it is also important to clarify these mandates were not conquests in the traditional sense and were not set up to remain under permanent colonial subjection.
@@billydagarin I see the point your making my bad I’m used to hearing that used in a completely opposite way.
Your right they didn’t have the right to do what they used to of complete subjugation and stripping of resources but did get to decide who what and when was going to run the area and how that would look.
@@radchad992 your clarification was valid my friend
ROSE WRIST IS HERE, HURRAY!
babe, rose wrist is alive. wake up
Rose Wrist? That's a name I've not heard in a long time.
Blood Wrist.
Which brings the question : Whatever happened to former child actor Robbie Rist, best known as Oliver, the kid who ruined The Brady Bunch in its final season and in the 1975 season as the underage John in the goofy kids' sitcom "Big John, Little John" ?
@@executivedecision6141 Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
@@executivedecision6141 ENCYCLOPEDIA CHECK: 6+6+12=24 [PASSED!]
"Last night on Destiny"... video was from 5 days ago
Maybe he just thought it would be inappropriate to show a video of your mom
ReddFoxx is right. Would be too much for your eyes ngl.
some people sleep a lot
Yeah and all those "late" shows on TV are filmed during the afternoon.
“Well, if they call it a religion, who am I to say anything about what they’re doing?”
I thought it was super weird how Destiny didn't say what the other guy said. "I don't think it's right to arbitrarily restrict freedom because of characteristics." Something like that. Cause that statement does make sense. Doing things arbitrarily isn't good.
19 views in 1 minute, glad to see a creator growing
ive already watched it 19 times don't get too excited
3200 in 21, I think he just went viral.
I thought this braindead joke was over. I'll never be able to understand how people can find the same thing funny every day for months at a time. I guess that's why fart jokes are normal.
Bro this joke is so old stop, the destiny woman ones are at least creative so it can be funny, this “he fell off” / “he growing quick” jokes are the exact same every time just with different numbers
I think people engage in this jokes to just participate in the community. I think it's way better than trolling
Rose Wrist speaks better English than me despite being foreign and half my age. Bye guys
Oh wow, its been ages since ive seen Rose Wrist. Hope this is a good convo.
Rose "Keffals manifesto editor-at-large" Wrist
@@user-fh6ed7vd7ekinda feels like you might be fighting a straw man but I’m not going to ask you for a time stamp from 4 years ago
@@user-fh6ed7vd7e unintegrated muslims are possibly the worst immigration you can have possible indeed.
@@user-fh6ed7vd7e but I’ll ask for a timestamp.
@@user-fh6ed7vd7e Nah you're tripping hard. Steven has been saying **** islam for years because fundamentalist muslims are very vocal and socially repressive in terms of free speech and equality for marginalized groups. You can't find a clip of him saying, "Islamic migration is our strength". Do it I want you to. You might find one of him saying that the principle of liberal immigration to the US in general is important, but you will never find him saying that's particularly true for muslims
@@user-fh6ed7vd7e I'm not debating you on immigration, was simply pointing out that on Steven's stances, you're either lying or high. You know what you could do to convince me? Send a clip that reinforces what you're saying. That's why nothing you say can convince me, that clip doesn't exist. If you're hyperbolizing his stance from one stance, to an entirely different one, and you know that, that is lying lmao. You just admitted that you're lying.
I think what’s elided here is there’s a conflict between the ideal norms globally and the principle of plurality. Maybe a better way to put this for destiny is to make the utilitarian argument that in general more humans succeed with freedom and human rights, but there’s a competing value of allowing nations that disagree to coexist peacefully, and the second imperative outweighs the first except in cases where there’s a violation so egregious that it’s worth risking the global order to enforce it cross-border, and that norms so stark they’re worth going to war for are peremptory by definition.
Good post. You should back him up in debates
This is all well said and easy at first glance, however, it falls into the same problem that we had before, which is what are these supposed egregious violations are, and why are they egregious violations. All you've really down is pushed the issue back a little.
@@lordmew5 I’m not sure this is true. You can ground everything in a utilitarian argument, ie the greatest good for the most people. It’s sloppy, but I think it mostly tracks.
If pseudo-intellectualism were a person.
@@lordmew5 ,
We have many limitations that stop us from making perfect absolutes. When you're trying to make as many possible considerations as you can, your own limits will pop up as well as the limits of others at the current time. Most people would also like to see changes while they're alive.
That’s our boyyyyyyy! Get it, Stevie😎🙌
Wild thumbnail
"I'm a funny person" said nobody funny ever
Not unless they pull down their pants, and run around the room in little circles making airplane noises right after saying it.
That's what's funny about it
I've said that and I'm hilarious
Well there's a group of people that call themselves comedians. Dunno if you've heard of them.
@@warrenburger9907 a comedian is an occupation, genius. It's not the person saying they're funny, it's saying others think they are, so much that they can make a living from it. LITERAL room temperature IQ comment 🤦
"I wouldn't say they're wrong for not letting women vote or drive." - Destiny, the moral relativist.
moral realism is a better stance
And it'll shift in a few years because secular morals are always changing
@@JohnSmith-bq6nf Yeah, I didn't expect this take from him. Pretty big L. He should read The Moral Landscape.
@@johnblackburn9574so are non-secular morals. How many renditions, or ‘updates’ of the bible came out since the original release? What patch are they on again? You would be foolish to think any moral framework is perfect and forever unchanging no matter how culture/society shifts
@@TH-lo8mqwatch the podcast with Alex O Conner and Sam Harris, it’d probably make you question the moral landscape
thing about moral relativism is that it's marketed as respect the boundaries of other people with different subjective valuations
in reality, even the rationalization for it is contradicted by the fact that in some cultures, they are oppressing groups like the lgbt and women or minorities. in that sense that culture too, is imposing it's culture upon those who don't share it. it's a self defeating position
If we go all the way down the issue is individual differences say at a genetic or disposition level. No one specific morality can fit all the difference so some blurring of the lines and balancing of the boundaries is necessary.
It really becomes a problem when they immigrate, bring their values with them, & the new home country tries to tolerate them no matter how much they conflict because diversity is their strength.
@hartyewh1 maybe but i think that argum is doing a lot of heavy lifting trying to justify a wider range of acceptable behavior but really only rationalizing a smaller range.
per your logic we should be able to justify genocide, no?
@@mr-h6x In some instance perhaps, but that's part of the balancing between desires. We have different people that wish to function to their fullest individually and the average maximal level of that requires mutual compromises. The world should look very different if we were all the exact same.
@@hartyewh1 you're not making a moral principle here. all you're doing is speaking to the pragmatic application.
what do people think happens when one nation loses a war to another?? do they think they go back home after one side surrenders and its all good??
1:26:20 Err I dunno about that one. "I make elevating music, you make elevator music." and various other lines about critics of E really make me smile to this day.
Rose Wrist is back goddamn
im glad rosewrist is back
I wish it was pewdiepie
This and the Dr K conversation shed a lot of light on Destiny and how he gets into certain standoffs on different topics with people... and the basic takeaway is that he doesn't infer things in the most common way people infer something, in this case the underlying point of a question, while answering in a way that is very particular to him so the other side isn't clued in to the specific context he frames his answer in. Might as well be speaking a different language.
It’s called autism
Is this Destiny's channel too or what's the difference between things posted on his main channel and this one?
Yup, this is where the less POPpy content goes e.g. Destiny vs Sneaking, Nick and Andrew Tate.
Preemptory norms are also...wait for it...subjective. This is not the slam dunk argument you're looking for.
Why would your view of someone’s morality require any action on their part? You can “judge” someone’s positions without telling them they need to live the way you prefer. “I don’t think it’s right to kill a particular ethnic group” is just an opinion
Destiny has suddently conveniently realised that he doesn't know whether it's wrong for Aztecs to do child sacrifice or for other societies to practive slavery.
Oh shit Rose Wrist??? Glad to see him back.
14:00 iow I’m a moral relativist when it’s convenient but I’m not when it isn’t ☠️ probably destiny’s most stupid take
Yea destiny came off as pretty incoherent in this discussion.
I think I’m more consistent than Destiny for once then (haven’t gotten to 14m mark yet)
I’d say I’m a moral anti-realest then when it’s convient, and also when it’s inconvient to me. I believe (if I’m using the terminology correctly, (I’m using “Ontological” as more than objective fact. Objective in all spaces and places beyond individual belief systems. literally).
I think for example that my beliefs with let’s say.. to make it more simple than a massive artical,
I think trans women are women, objectively in every sense of the word that is important. With our observably shown way we can observe, (and have), the way different cultures interact with eachother throughout society, and even to little things like girl used to mean any kiddo around 6 and under in the past, along with pink used to be a boy color, all the way to entire civilizations’ ways of understanding how their sense of “gender” was expressed and existed as a concept to them.
I believe using this system of analysis to push for a world that we “SJWs” wanted, would make the world a happier, more equitable society.
That being said, I don’t ontologically believe that trans women are women, and just understand that this belief system makes the world more .. happy. More happy points overall. That, and it is also the world I want my future great grandchildren to live in, because I believe IT will make them objectively more happy.
Does that make sense?? I am saying I objectively believe in this way of thinking to be fact of the matter, but not ontologically true. That being said, (meta-meta??) I believe I might be using my subjective belief of observing objective reality to say it is only a subjective reality that
“The different bubbles of reality (meaning they live in different epistomogical thought bubbles), my very belief in there being differences in them, if that is in itself my own mode of analysis of anti-realism being placed on
that belief, to believe there is not a real truth.
Is there a way to escape the intial bubbles we believe in? Sure! I think we would see a bunch of different physical bubbles with their ideas like moral realism; moral reletivism; etc., or the different bubbles that go along with those beliefs. And what if we zoomed out, we saw that all these bubbles were surrounded by this square, incasing all of us??
Is it possible to escape that box?? I don’t know.. I wish I could try to explain better what I’m trying to get across.
Can we like.. absolute reality beyond the bubbles? To escape the real box? Am I putting my own beliefs of escaping the box and understanding that my beliefs are in of themselves are ontologically just a subjective mode of analysis to believe I escape my own bubble? If I have escaped it, does that mean I’m still an anti-realist? Is my belief in the over-arching square as I described that metaphorically surrounds us really there(metaphorically)??
And, if it is there,
again, a diagram of a big square, and in that square all these circles or bubbles with their own objective reality beliefs written on them,
Can humans ever escape that box?? Or is it an untouchable ceiling we can’t even grab or climb out of??
My apologies for going off the deep end, I failed my promise I’m not doing so, but I finally got my beliefs and questions into paper that I’ve been wanting to ask for a year and am genuinely perplexed by. I feel as though my mind exploded out like five sizes.
@@ThySheepie I’ve grappled with the trans thing for a while. And I’ve come to the conclusion that using the word “woman” to encompass transwomen is just confusing and it’s not the way we’ve used the word historically.
Trans activists will tell you “we don’t identify a person on the street by looking at their genitals” and to that I say we try to guess based on other traits but ultimately what we’re doing is trying to identify someone by sex.
If I run into a feminine looking man and I mistakenly call him a woman, we don’t have to adapt the definition of “woman” itself to include him, what would realistically happen: is he would correct me and I’d realise I was WRONG.
TLDR I would really like to make the case for man and woman = male and female. And that gender isn’t actually real.
@@lighting7508 I can’t imagine you would misindentify an absurdly feminine man as a woman. I am in full belief that we use women based on physical traits we see, and express “woman” as a mix of physical traits we tie ourselves with such as sex characteristics we visually see, cues on appearences that are archetypically female, then tied with self-identity. The last one is optional I believe in belief. I mean, that itself is likely the reason we have Non-Binary people in 21st century America. People express androgynous traits, and they tag themselves as not fitting either expression or sense of self. I am very androgynous by traits and likely lean towards woman in mine. That being said, I am a guy. It’s not that I’m “not delusional,” it’s that I don’t see myself as a woman due to my identity just being a much more feminine-traited man. (I prefer women over men, btw)
How is the existence of peremptory norms different from objective morality?
This moral relativist rabbit hole Destiny and Erudite enter is really dumb cause both of them have their moral stances strong enough to believe they're universal. And if you don't think something is universal, it's less of a moral stance and more of a preference. And even if you have strong belief, you can say something is morally wrong in your opinion and don't have the desire to force it on people. You can even admitt that certain setup may work for certain groups of people giving their culture and background even though it's objectively and separately wrong thing to do. It does not contradicts itself. I guess thats what Destiny is tryig to say but calling it moral relativism is not correct. It seems he has constant values but the society is just really complicated.
The other thing is especially if you are having a debate with someone doesn’t really care about engaging in good faith your goal is to be clear and appeal to the audience. The audience typically have a more simple and moralistic view so that’s should be the first appeal rather than the moral relevance to the time period..
ROSE WRIST YAAAAAAH
this was really dumb why didn't rose wrist just ask what if someone from that country your arguing about hears you agree with the status quo that they are currently resisting and suffering under? Other people could be listening in other countries and could be convinced in some way by your arguments to in some way influence their politics there so you probably shouldn't say "I think it's fine based on the context of those countries and governments"
Booksmarts sounds weird here :D
Rose “Is Destiny feeding you these questions?” Wrist baby
I agree with Steven on viewing countries based on their standards and not on mine because I could be wrong and views change and we grow and who knows if what we believe now will be the same in a few years or a hundred years from now. There's just certain things that you can't change and almost comes of a morally superior and not a very good thing and that could come back to bite you because others could do the same to you.
How is the act of cultural or moral superiority bad? If you believe it’s a defendable in your society how does it change in other places?
@@inteallsviktigt Because people have different cultures and beliefs. There's a difference between having different views vs enforcing those views on other people. For example I grew up Christian and I still consider myself a Christian but I don't hold other people to those standards for which they don't subscribe too, even though I've had a very positive experience and have never come across anyone speaking negatively about lgbt within the church (i only hear that from other people online). it doesn't mean that others wouldn't have had those experiences and also at one point it was deemed acceptable to own slaves by a huge percentage of the population so whose to say that whatever beliefs that we hold currently won't be seen in 100 years as horrible as how we view people who owned slaves? Obviously we don't know what views from the future will look like
A lot of contradictions here. If you want to be a relativist you can just pick and chose certain things to be absolute
@LastNiightDestiny Thank you! 1:19:41 I've been making this exact same argument so many times - now I can just point them to this recording 😁 In the same context: the UK blockaded Germany in 1939. If blockade is same as occupation - which means that the UK occupied Germany in 1939 - why did WW2 last another 6 years?!?
I can sum up Elton's view as "If I had a magic wand and could make the real world into a Disney movie".
This opinion on judging other cultures seems extremely out of character for Destiny
Hey, it's my close personal friend Steven! Of which I have a healthy relationship! Good to hear from you, man!
*Quit critiquing my improper grammar, you guys! I'm just having a casual conversation with my close, personal friend Steven!
Kinda cringe bro. Destiny posted this video for me and only me
With whom
With whom
@brandonetter Plot twist...Destiny makes these videos for no one
Is my Steven having a parasocial relationship with you also!? That Paracheating basturd!
Swedish guy being offended getting called a Danish person has to be the most ironic shit
Danes > Swedes and it’s not even close
oh yeah the two nations who fought each other the longest might have left over animosity who knew
Try calling a Finn Swedish, or Finn Norwegian. Or Finn Russian.
We hate our neighbours up north.
Ever called a new yorker a jersian?
The humor in the Nordics is a bit different. I'm Finnish and would bet a lot of money on that being basic Nordic banter, as opposed to him really being offended.
56:13 disagree here. I think for the listeners he could potentially convince, adding those caveats Would buy him a lot of credibility
This boils down to "what right do you have to *change* what other countries do." With a Objective moral system you can argue from righteousness, but of you dont you really cant argue that you have the right to change them.
"I'm a funny guy"
I love this - it’s so Wittgensteinian. You can only understand or judge the meaning of something internally to the language game. That’s not relativistic because *there is no* universal standpoint in which we could say that all moralities are equal - which is what the relativist wants to say.
This dude at the start sound like the sh*teating grin meme!
Destiny should say this is wrong, but there is no feasible way to change
I was wondering why this dude sounded like rosewrist
What a fucking legend
01:04:00 | I get not wanting to have those philosophy debates where there basically is no "right answer", and so basically you're wrong for leaning either way, but also, you're scolded for sitting on the fence. Better to discuss real things that are happening or can be done.
Hypotheticals are fine to make a point, but if you find yourself in a no-win philosophy debate, what's the point?
Yay! Glad to hear Rose here - not just because it's him but because we need people generally capable of cogently engaging in discourse for the purpose of understanding and evaluating... which ffs is SO RARE 😭
I’m here for the shitshows mostly.
damn gangster.. You got cooked..
ON twitter i mean, lol.
@9:00 wtf Destiny 😂😂😂
Destiny keeps appealing to peremptory norms, and I'm so curious about what he would think prior to their establishment. Like if he were put in charge of their creation, and no such norms yet exist in a official international framework, where would he start drawing lines and what would be the basis for his decision making.
15:30 well the Bible does 😅
@6:20 How the fuck is that a yes?
sup
D tiny responding to chat at the end is the most based D tiny. Go off King!
Loved Rose Wrist, his commentary will be missed
I think morals for the most part are going to be generally constructed based on where and how you are raised. For example, if you were raised in Afghanistan, in a family that deeply involved with the Taliban, you most likely will not have the same moral standards for women’s rights as someone living in the US. Removing yourself from much higher standards that you’re accustomed to can be really difficult. Not to say Afghanistan has it right by any stretch, however making that statement does come from my mind that has been constructed in a society that has a much higher standard and value system for women’s rights. My and many others experiences with women’s rights and the overall good that comes from those, can’t just be implanted in the brains of those pushing to subjugate women in Afghanistan. It’s going to take a much greater cultural shift of the people to move that forward
1:01:58 to 1:02:16 i feel like this response from destiny comes across as a dismissal or reason not to engage with the theoretical opposition, but seems like a valid response instead; to bring up the tactics being used while still engaging with the question. Idk
I felt the same about his ‘I don’t care if the GDP gets a bump if it means society collapses’ steelman. I wish he’d engage with that position more so we can see if he doesn’t actually get it and was trying to strawman or if he does get it and is just evil, willing to trade souls for money.
destiny hating on disstracks like 2pac didnt drop absolute legendary fire on hit em up
Expansionist Ottoman Empire loses expansionist war, loses territory and empire. Duh
This is why I believe in God
Destiny had never sounded whiter than he did at the end of this video
Is this Rose (They/them) Wrist?
When was this conversation?
Months ago lmao
edit:[WRONG REDACTED]
look at the bottom right of the video
5/6/2024
@@BYnsTanT Did you invent this information
@@BYnsTanT 5 days ago
Days ago lmao
Troll me would joke about Hasan saying "well I wouldnt do it"
@1:26:00 tell me you're racist without telling me you're racist.
RoseWrist mad that Denmark is the better country.
If your idea of “native” is just american indians (feather, not dot) or POC, you’ll never understand nations.
Imperialism is okay when it's in the name of my values :)
Why does it have to be argued this way? Destiny could easily say, "if we go by the moral standards of modern times, I absolutely condemn X, but going by the norm during that time period, it was acceptable at the time, which would make it reasonable in terms of practicality."
Because he doesn't want to embarrass future destiny
36:13
With all due respect, @Destiny, Dan is the reason I don't like the pod. Sorry, Dan.
ultimate liberal btw
The take on the drake thing and now this, there’s been some L takes lately. “As long as they’re not genociding people it’s okay if women don’t have rights” wtf. I don’t understand how you can think your culture is better but not judge the other cultural practices in other places, can someone explain
I havent finished it yet, but I think the thought is pretty simple. One example could be. Women not being able to vote or drive for instance only really matters relative to how good or bad they are also treated in said society. If women couldnt vote or drive, but they lived in a country where poverty doesnt exist, domestic violence was A SUPER HARSHLY penalized crime so much so that it basically doesnt exist, they had reproductive rights, crime in general was very very low, they can still have credit cards, own land, get no fault divorced, etc.. Then going on an activist tirade about not being able to vote or drive might be not in your interest unless the women are protesting and showing it is within their interest I guess. Even if you feel they should have those rights, and could argue its benefit to the economy or society that isnt giving them those rights. Even if it wasnt that semi utopian scenario I just mentioned. What if the women simply dont care and dont want to vote or drive. They say yeah, per our X religion, we dont need to or want to vote, nor do we desire to drive. Are we going to do the condescending bigotry of low expectations 101, and be like "Oh you poor thing. You dont know why this isnt okay".
The truth of the matter is that without arguing ethics and morals, most people do this naturally within and outside of their groups. If over there in Brooklyn they always say "thank you, king" after ordering a chopped cheese, but in Queens you say "thats whatsup" after ordering a chopped cheese, and you know this is the thing. You being from Queens, will say what they say in Brooklyn because you dont want to be disrespectful. When in rome as a saying exist for a reason, and there can be deadly consequences for not adhering to cultural differences and practices.
Some things are also just more important than others. If a country has a custom of sacrificing kids to the sun god in 2024. I think we can make decent arguments to why we ought to stop this. Where if a country has anti abortion laws, and women cant drive due to something in their religious interpretations. Okay, thats not great, but not a major priority. Especially if theyre okay with it. I know everyone looks at this through the lens of liberal western societies, but there are people that are actually okay with illiberalism. Its not even illiberalism to them. Its just how they do things.
Im sure a future human species 300 years from now would be grossed out how even the freest and most prosperous liberal country in the world was an ethical and moral nightmare in many ways too. Part of embracing liberalism is just having to bite the bullet on also letting some people just run their ish how they do to an extent (Even if you end up hypocritical in some cases. Being a hypocrite is natural and fine sometimes. Thats just life) , because the path the other way is authoritarian, illiberal, and likely more destructive.
@@richg4011 Going with some of your examples, lets say that in X country 99% of women are actually ok with not having the right to drive, vote or have an abortion. I don't think that we should necessarily say to these women that they should all want to drive and vote like women in the west. If it's not a thing in their culture fine, but that 1% of women who would want to do those things should have the option.
I don't think that one should advocate for changing the customs and behaviors of the majority, rather just for the minority to have the right and the freedom to do things that deviate from the norm as long as it doesn't harm anyone. What I find bad isn't a cultural practice by itself, but rather the enforcement of said cultural norm by a government.
For example, I don't think people in the middle east are evil for thinking women should cover up and be "modest", I understand that it is part of their culture. However, I am still fine with saying that I think women should have the right to not cover up. Even if most women would still cover up due to religion, culture or whatever reason a government shouldn’t force the minority to conform. I wouldn't say to a hijabi woman to take her hijab off because she is "oppressed" if she is fine with it, but I wouldn't hesitate to say that that the women who don't want to, should absolutely have the right to deviate from that norm and it is bad if they don't have the the freedom to choose.
I still don't understand how one can think that women should be equal in the eye of the law, but say that it isn't bad when they aren't equal just because it is in another country.
Just to reiterate my point, if most women in the hypothetical country I mentioned previously are fine with not voting or driving, I wouldn't tell these women that they should change their minds. Still though, I believe their legal system should afford them the option to not follow those norms.
Please tell me if im getting my point across, as cringe as it sounds english is not my first language lmao so I'm probably babbling without realizing it. And thanks for the detailed respectful response, kudos.
@@richg4011Thank you for taking the time to explain what should be obvious to the smooth 🧠 s. Great reply!
hes so close
Dave Rubin??
No, he's fighting on the battlefield of ideas... and Destiny is a girls name.
I have my values. You have your values. I'd like you to adhere to my values, BUT to make you adhere to my values, I'd have to use force, which would lead to conflict. Example, USA want to spread the values of democracy in Iraq, which leads to loads of problems. The question is basically about pragmatism vs. idealism. The calculation to be pragmatic vs. standing up for your ideals is context dependent. My idealistic side says that the west should keep on supporting Ukraine and even get NATO involved. My pragmatic side says that it might be time to open up negotiations for peace.
Does Destiny have a foundation for morality or does he think it's just what a person or groups of people value? Because there is a difference between morals and values.
rose!!!!!
That guy must be super funny because he said he’s funny
You can tell by his morning Zoo radio voice
I respect Destiny's argument but my counter to it would be to look at the world today and compare it to what it was before western geo-political dominance.
Many many countries have become much more liberal in their values thanks to the wests political, cultural and military influence.
Some societies still lag behind but if we continue doing what we have always done its fair to say this process will continue globally.
I see this argument as moral isolationism, Destiny does well to critique Trumpist as well as far left isolationism when it comes to economics and military but not when it comes to this type or moral isolationism.
Personally i think countries should be unique and practise their own traditions and make their own laws, to an extent.
The answer is to strike a balance between global Liberalism and national identity, i think this is possible and that we should strive to push the rest of the world in this direction in whatever means is the most efficient. The means will differ from country to country but the west should not give up its historic place in the world as drivers of progress.
Why is it next to impossible for anyone to ever entertain a theoretical question... It's always just "Well in real life, I don't see this ever happening therefore I cannot answer"
If I had to guess, it's because people will quote your answer to the hypothetical, quote you out of context, and people will never drop it or use it in context. Other than that, I would guess it's just being careful.
Some guy in another country punched a child in the face and stole his icecream -
Destiny: "Well it's not the United States so I can't give my opinion. He might be part of facepunch icecream steal religion so how can I condemn his actions?"
Also Destiny: “fuck hamas. without exception.”
What a smooth 🧠 analogy faiI.
nahnahnahnahnahnah 1:06:15 I thought this dude was based, but now I found out he's a swede? omfg... My opinion of Destiny has now dropped because of the company he keeps...
It's a based law. Too based, in fact.
I'm not convinced by Destiny's argument that it's ultimately irreconcilable to try to argue with someone who holds very different views. It's maybe true to some degree, given some truly extreme beliefs, but I think that our values, at the end of the day map onto our experiences, which are physiologically and psychologically determinate. This is why I agree with Sam Harris, though he isn't making as narrow or specific of a case as people tend to think he is. It's not about this or that being "right" or "wrong" in a traditional moral sense. Rather, it's about whether some actions are more or less beneficial to human well-being over the span of our lives. It's not always going to be super clear, but you make the best choices you can, and you update your conception of well-being as you get more data, just like our conception of Health/Healthy.
Having spoken to coworkers, and some family, about politics, people are not often on the same wavelength. I've got people to agree to an idea, but once you point on an example, they disagree. They say it's not the same, but don't often provide examples that lead to that conclusion. They have worries, but also don't engage enough to have them squashed. I think the practice comes off as "idealistic" despite the amount of working being put in, which would be required if it was really going to happen (whatever the subject/idea).
A person living in another time / another culture; raised with specific values, are unable to know a specific thing can be wrong even if it seems deplorable to us today.
You have to take into account the context of what morales they could have access to. This is why it’s hard to judge someone from the past.
"A person living in another time / another culture; raised with specific values, are unable to know a specific thing can be wrong even if it seems deplorable to us today."
if this were true then how does change ever come about?
@@gregapirc7020 Its gradual. Or someone from another culture comes in and changes it drastically. Or the circumstances change, like if a famine occurred or something big that forcers people to change their view of the world.
But in a bubble, change happens gradually. It is like evolution. Each generation is constrained by the previous but change still occurs. Even though people can only know their own reality and have trouble seeing outside of that, including morality, they can do so a little bit. So over time things change.
This is why people back in the day during certain time periods were racist. Its not because they were magically bad people it is because that's how they were raised and its all they know.
Today this cant occur anymore, maybe in North Korea. Because with the internet one culture is no longer in a bubble, they can see any other culture and respond accordingly.
@@gregapirc7020 Just to add. You think that you are operating in a good morale place but you mighty not be, at least if you compare it to the future.
In 500 years, eating animals could be considered just as deplorable as murder. It wouldn't be fair for that culture to judge you as a murderer because you were raised in a world where eating animals is fine. We all do it.
So to you eating animals = murder might seem absurd. But to another culture in another time you seem absurd for not thinking that
Leave it to destiny to make absolute sense for 1 hour and 25 minutes up until he started talking about diss tracks and the stupidity came out💀💀
Destiny’s argument here is bizarre and incoherent.
Why not explain how instead of what's essentially "wrong!"?
@@hartyewh1 Because his entire argument is that he only cares ethically about things if they can impact him. If I think repression of women in my country is wrong, there is no reason why that should not extend to other women in a different geographical location. His relativist stance only makes sense if you are an anthropologist trying to study a different culture. In that context, you should try to understand the facts, psychology and motivations of the culture you are studying without having moral considerations interfere. But if someone is asking for your moral stance on something and that changes when applied to some people because "lol you guys are 100km away dont care" then you have no moral stance at all.
@@xyugi0007 His relativism is weaker than that. He'll take into account cultural differences on matters that are less important and thinks his morality is superior, but would not impose it on them since they need to fix their own issues.
@@hartyewh1 Imposing your values is irrelevant. The guy is asking him about why some things are wrong for people in his country but not wrong for another one and his answer is that he is not part of that culture so it does not impact him so he does not care.
If you think your government making it illegal for women to drive because they are women is evil, why would that be right for someone else? Conceding the fact that they are acting in an evil way does not necessarily mean that it is now your sole mission to fix another country, but you can still judge them for it. And also, you -could- do something about it. You can sign up to do gay rights activism in the middle east if you had the motivation and means to, and that would be a noble act.
@@xyugi0007 He's talked about this dozens if times and the point is that it's not his place to dictate to other cultures what to do and even more that it's practically pointless. He's happy to explain how he considers his personal morality to be superior if someone asks. There's also value in limiting your spheres to avoid the naive and neurotic trap a lot of young people fall into trying carry the weight of the world with no understanding or impact. Many are willing to hurt themselves as an excuse for not really helping others like the "pro-palestinian" demonstrators are effectively doing emotional self-flagellation and being beyond useless for the actual cause.
Destiny you’re likely arguing against moral subjectivism and not moral absolutist
Morality
In relativism, morality exists in relation to culture, traditions and society, while in subjectivism, morality is subjective and personal.
Underlying Concept
According to relativism, the way we perceive morality is shaped by culture and society while according to subjectivism, the way we perceive morality depends on our own mental judgment.
Conclusion
Both relativism and subjectivism claim that there is no universal truth or objective truth. Moreover, the difference between relativism and subjectivism is the nature of morality or truth. In relativism, morality or truth exists in relation to culture, traditions and society, while in subjectivism, morality or truth is subjective and personal.
Yikes
why does anything need to be "justified"?
because its arbitrary and ad hoc and your position becomes essentially meaningless and gives no reason as to why anyone should even hear it out in the first place
@@samuraidog1510 i asked why it needs to be justified and your response is just a long winded way of saying it needs to be justified
@@cwilliams6884Your argument is akin to a scientist saying “why do I have to provide reasoning to a claim I made”. The irony here is that you dont even understand what being arbitrary or being ad hoc is so of course you dont understand why justification isnt necessary.
@@samuraidog1510 i didn't make an argument i asked a question
Things "need" (in this case to mean heavily or commonly desired) to be justified, because there are a lot of things, and they all want to be prioritised, and "justification" is the (sorta) system/method many have decided helps in deciding whether a thing will be prioritized/brought to the top of the pile.
whoa destiny just made globalisim make since I can't judge you based on my countries beliefs but the international body gives me enough righteousness to judge you anyway
Honestly Dan is just not a good fit lmao u should be solo tbh or have someone less annoying
Antisemitism detected.
/s
Destiny does a thing my best friend does. Hes legit just super literal about questions. Nobody fking watches you to hear what these countries would do. THEY WANT TO HEAR WHAT U WOULD DO LOL. like why the fk does someone have to preface every question with "what would you do personally at this very moment if you could wave a wand?"